Metagame Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion

[spoo]

Scarlet and Violet CAP Metagame Discussion​

With Gen 9 CAP now implemented on Pokemon Showdown, let's start discussing the new generation! Use this thread to talk about anything related to the SV CAP metagame, from potential cores or strategies you've had success with, meta trends as a whole, and anything else relevant – if it's related to the SV CAP metagame, chances are this is a good place to post it. Topics like Terastallization might be of particular interest right now, and we'll have even more to talk about after CAP's generational updates take place. So, get to it!

 

[Da Pizza Man]

If I had to say which CAPs benefit the most off of Terastallization, it would easily be these two.

Cawmodore already hit like a semi-truck like it has since debut, but Terastallization really takes its power to a whole new level. Now, the only things that really are able to live +6 Tera Flying Acrobatics are Unaware users such as Skeledirge and Dodonzo. Also while not related to Terastallization, the introduction of Cyclizar also makes Cawmodore's job of setting up a lot easier, since Shed Tail support makes it's job of setting up a lot easier. That being said, while I do think it's definitely better than it was last gen, I'm not sure if I would call it broken for the time being, as a lot of the issues that it was facing last gen (Namely the fact that it's sort of a feast-or-famine mon that really only fits on Hyper Offense, as well as the fact that there are quite a few fast mons that are capable of revenge killing it quite reliably) have carried over, and it also really doesn't appreciate the fact that there is a pletheroa of viable Unaware users now.

Chromera obviously loves Terastallization for giving it the ability to fire off Base-280 BP Boomburst. But, what it really appreciates about the mechanic is how once it has Terastallizied, it no longer has to worry about dealing with Color Change since the ability is turned off. This makes Boomburst an extremely spammable attack and turns Tera Normal Chromera into one of the most reliable wallbreakers in the entire game, and even if you choice to Terastallize something else, it's still very much able to contribute to the rest of the team. That being said, it's still super prediction reliant like it was last gen after we buffed it, and if you don't want to use your Tera on Chromera, then you still have to deal with Color Change. While I don't think it's quite as strong as Cawmodore, I do think that it's more flexible, as I can personally see both Choice Scarf and Choice Specs variants going on a fairly solid number of teams. Personally, I have preferred using Modest Choice Scarf just due to how it allows Chromera to act as a wallbreaker and a revenge killer at the same time.

 

[dex]

Thought I’d do a fun post here with CAPs that got better in SV compared to SS, CAPs that were good in SS and are still good in SV, and CAPs that got worse in SV compared to SS.

New Gen, New Life

Jumbao's status as a bulky Fairy-type is massive in the tier, and I do think that defensive variants of it will be good. However, what is most exciting about Jumbao in SV right now is Tera Fire + Drought with Tera Blast. Essentially, it has Flame Burst back. except it is even stronger now. Fun stuff.


Surprisingly, I think Snaelstrom is going to be very, very strong as long as tera works the way it does. It can use tera to shed its awful Bug typing and gain any number of resistances along the way. Tera Dragon looks quite nice, as does Tera Poison.

Same Game, Same Brokens

SpD Arghonaut is going to be a demon this generation. It is one of the few mons that can decently check Chi Yu, and it still has all of the great utility it had in SS. Arghonaut remains strong.


Bulletproof Equilibra is sort of amazing in this tier. Don't worry about it losing Doom Desire, it full walls Gholdengo. That in and of itself makes it deserving of a spot on many teams. It still provides Rapid Spin and is still super bulky. God Libra is still with us.

Tough Luck, Try Again

Unfortunately for Colossoil, even more Ground-types were released with Rapid Spin AND Knock Off! Considering that was its main niche, I see little to no reason to use Colossoil when Great Tusk and Iron Treads populate the tier.


Kerfluffle wasn't good in SS, but it is even worse in SV. Iron Valiant essentially does what Kerfluffle wants to do but better due to its higher power, ability to run multiple items, and better coverage. Better luck next gen, kerf.​

 

[Lectrys]

At the risk of sounding like a fool due to my lack of Gen 8 CAP experience, I think regular SV OU would kill for these 3 CAP spinners and Defoggers:


Astrolotl @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground / Flying
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpD / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Lash
- Stomping Tantrum
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp / Heal Bell / Taunt / Encore / Spikes

Gholdengo needs to use Scarf Power Gem or Astrolotl is giving no quarter and then will Defog in the next guy's face:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 139-165 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 228-268 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Power Gem vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 186-220 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Power Gem vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 304-358 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Trust Astrolotl's ability to switch in and out of play to recover off all that damage it took driving Gholdengo out.

Bonus points for messing with Annihilape's head by outspeeding that ghost monke and threatening Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Encore.


Tomohawk @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate / Prankster
Tera Type: Steel / Fire
EVs: 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Rapid Spin
- Roost / Focus Blast / Grass Knot

Tomohawk speed ties with Quaquaval and therefore has 1 more base Speed than Gholdengo. Even a bulky set can drive non-Specs and non-Scarf-and-Thunderbolt Gholdengo out pretty well:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 121-144 (34.4 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 183-216 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 121-144 (34.4 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 182-216 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 199-235 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Tomohawk: 298-352 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
4 SpA Tomohawk Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 168-198 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tomohawk Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 168-198 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tomohawk also forces out most Great Tusk, makes the Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin/Earthquake/Knock Off sets regret staying that way, and even tanks Ice Spinner from most of them as long as it comes in on Great Tusk:
-1 252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tomohawk: 128-152 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 444-524 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Iron Treads needs Wild Charge or Zen Headbutt and to be brave enough to switch into Tomohawk (or I guess it can use Choice Band) in order to do much to Tomo before Tomo takes it down:
252 Atk Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tomohawk: 194-230 (55.2 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Iron Treads Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tomohawk: 172-204 (49 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Tomohawk Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 206-244 (64.1 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tomohawk makes sure Annihilape regrets trying to take down its fellow Fighting-type (yes, this Tomo set outspeeds most Annihilapes), although Intimidate is a liability here due to Annihilape's Defiant:
+1 0 Atk Annihilape Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tomohawk: 75-88 (21.3 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (8.9 - 10.3% recovered)
+1 0 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tomohawk: 199-235 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Annihilape: 210-248 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

You can try ditching Roost for a way to hit Garganacl worth something.


Kitsunoh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Shadow Strike
- Meteor Mash / Close Combat
- U-turn / Trick / Will-O-Wisp

Probably the riskiest of these Defoggers to use since, thanks to losing Poltergeist, it needs chip to take down no-bulk Gholdengo:
252+ Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 254-302 (80.6 - 95.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive Gholdengo has a poor chance of OHKOing back, though:
0 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kitsunoh: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Kitsunoh can moonlight as a way to revenge Dragapult, especially with chip:
252+ Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

(why does not work)
In the meantime, Saharaja can't hit Air Balloon Gholdengo super-effectively unless it opts for 60-BP Thief or a lure Tera Blast and therefore probably loses its spinner role (and its Stealth Rock role) to Great Tusk and Iron Treads all over again unless you really need the Water Absorb role compression along with the spinning. ...And if you're interested in a Water Absorb Ground-type this round, there's Clodsire. Heal Bell is one heck of a rarity this round, though, and it juuust might give Saharaja a different niche.

 

[SHSP]

In the meantime, Saharaja can't hit Air Balloon Gholdengo super-effectively unless it opts for 60-BP Thief or a lure Tera Blast and therefore probably loses its spinner role (and its Stealth Rock role) to Great Tusk and Iron Treads all over again unless you really need the Water Absorb role compression along with the spinning. ...And if you're interested in a Water Absorb Ground-type this round, there's Clodsire. Heal Bell is one heck of a rarity this round, though, and it juuust might give Saharaja a different niche.

I mean, it can't hit it SE without popping the balloon first with Diamond Storm, which is probably decently likely to happen if the Gholdengo player switches it in on the Raja. I haven't tried nor seen much Raja, and I don't doubt it's got an uphill road as it stands with the many seriously good grounds in the tier, but this- and the Water Absorb Clodsire comparison- don't strike me as the biggest of issues off the jump.

While I'm here, I wanted to talk about one of the mons I've found fantastic so far in my day and a half of playing. Ebook feels incredible to me right now: it does an excellent job into Great Tusk, still hits like a warhead (especially with a potential Tera Flying), and really appreciates that not a whole lot wants to switch into it. I've been running a more standard Coil/Roost/Gunk/BB set, but I've also been meaning to try out a bit bulkier of a set to lean into that Tusk matchup and some of its more interesting tools- Rocks, U-Turn, a now far more rare Knock Off.

 

[Lasen]

Kerfluffle wasn't good in SS, but it is even worse in SV. Iron Valiant essentially does what Kerfluffle wants to do but better due to its higher power, ability to run multiple items, and better coverage. Better luck next gen, kerf.

wait until you get clapped by double Kerfluffle, the team to end all teams.

 

[Uninteleon]

Mollux @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic
- Recover
- Lava Plume
- Rapid Spin

The biggest winner this gen IMO, the removal of Heatran and the addition of Terastallization completely changes the viability of this thing.

I haven't tested this set out myself yet, so i'm just Theorymoning for now; The snail has potential to be an amazing hazard removal mon that also threatens AB Gholdengo, Toxic Spikes is Mollux's own way of setting hazards (not to mention that it swaps in to Gholdengo nearly every time), while Toxic is consistent in dealing with threats like Astrolotl, Arghonaut and Dondozo, Recover is its main form of reliable recovery, Lava Plume is Mollux's main STAB that also lets it burn potential swap-ins like Clodsire and, again, Dondozo, Rapid Spin lets Mollux take advantage of Gholdengo, via forcing it to swap out, letting you get a free Rapid Spin off, removing hazards. Tera Flying lets you eat hits from Great Tusk/Iron Treads in case you want to come in on them and status them.

You could also run Gastro Acid + Toxic for Garganacl, its biggest swap-in, but that's a much more gimmicky set.

And if you want to run offensive Mollux, just use Iron Moth, it's faster and has better coverage.

 

[Brambane]

Chi-Yu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic


Jumbao @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast
- Solar Beam
- Healing Wish


Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin

Half of a sun team for people to start building. Jumbao is pretty much everything Chi-Yu could ask for. Provides Drought support, resists all of its weaknesses except Rock, and can heal it back with Healing Wish. I use Tera Steel to resist Flying, Poison, and Ice while keeping the ability to switch into Dragon, but Tera Water seems pretty good too. Choice Scarf and Boots are good on Jumbao too; Heat Rock is nice if you are going all in on sun. Great Tusk is such a natural partner for the two as well, providing hazard control, Knock Off support, and hitting crazy hard with Protosynthesis.

 

[Brown4Sides]

I've only gotten to use Plasmanta in a few matches so far, but it's actually not terrible.

All of the good Special Electric type attackers are gone right now, we live in a metagame without Tapu Koko and Zapdos. What Plasmanta has is being able to perfectly answer Dondozo with Storm Drain, which I think is a really great trait to have in this metagame. Not to mention it actually has ways around Ground types this time. I've been running Tera Fighting Body Press which really helps against the Equilibra matchup, and it has Psychic for Great Tusk and Clodsire (though Psychic on specially defensive Clodsire is still only a 3HKO). Plasmanta also really appreciates the more limited distribution of Toxic, offensive Toxic users don't really exist anymore and it's nice to have with Plasmanta. Also is a way to hit Garchomp.

It's still nowhere near top tier, as it still generally gets trouble from the really common Ground type, but don't knock it till you try it.

 

[spoo]

some of my first impressions of the meta- sample size of games is still p small and not particularly high quality + the tier is very new, so take these opinions with a graint of salt:

literally no one should be surprised that these mons are good, but yeah they're far and away the two best CAPs in this tier and easily the biggest changes we have over SV OU. argh is a godsend into chien pao and chi yu, and depending on defensive investment can be pretty consistent into roaring moon/great tusk/gholdengo/etc. bulletproof libra is a spinner that completely shuts down gholdengo which is very funny and of course is incredibly nice into some other massive threats like special iron valiant and dragapult. tera flying/tera water libra seems pretty decent for great tusk and chi yu respectively, haven't decided what's best on argh but tera fairy/steel/ground are probably decent. these two CAPs also have great synergy with each other!


really like this mon right now as something that beats up on aforementioned argh+libra defensive cores pretty hard. lefties sd/drain punch/tpunch/filler looks to be the best right now, with ice punch and eq both being pretty solid last slots. tera flying to cheese past grounds has also come in handy a few times. iron hands has drawn a lot of comparisons to melmetal and i think that's pretty apt, it has a bit less defensive utility than melm but it's still fat as shit and with sd+more speed it's more than capable of forcing positive trades without much difficulty

both of these guys have been really useful for me so far. venom-e is outright absurd with tera as a lot of people suspected- you kill yourself in like 2 turns, but hey, you'll probably collect 2+ kills or do a shitload of damage so who really cares. tera flying seems best to me, but some defensive tera types like ground, steel, or even dark might have merit as well. venom-p on the other hand has a less defined place in the meta right now by comparison, but i think it's actually one of the tier's better ups and its wincon sets are no joke either. rocks/cane/press/roost with some physdef investment has been very consistent as a setter that beats libra/tusk/treads/tomo, and nasty plot sets can still spiral out of control really quickly despite the roost nerf and this tier being so fast paced. poison/flying is also incredible defensively with argh/tusk/valiant being as good as they are


yeah this guy took a small hit in CAP but not anywhere near enough to be balanced. NP tera flying nukes the hell out of arghonaut (and is also generally good into grounds like tusk/clod), but even non-STAB psychic on scarf or specs can let you bypass the octopus semi easily. tera fire on sun also has literally no answers, specs overheat 2HKOs max spdf arghonaut lol. this pokemon is a bad joke from gamefreak and i cannot wait for it to leave this tier


the meta is still in its infancy, so there's a ton of room for experimentation! there are a LOT of CAPs (mollux, rev, strata, raja, paj, pyroak, navi, etc...) that are definitely getting overshadowed by the sheer amount of broken shit running around but i think will prove to have cool niches once people mess around with them/the tier settles down. early gen is always a total mess but this tier has been fun to sort through so far, looking forward to playing more of it in the kickoff tour

 

[quziel]

My king.

Skeledirge legit answers like every single painful threat in CAP atm by itself. Cawmodore? gamed on. Roaring Moon? Tera-Fairy then game on it. Need to break some fat stuff? Wisp the Argh then Torch Song them. Legit I'm increasing the amount of speed invest I run every game because of how necessary winning the speed tie in the mirror can be. The only major issue I find is that you really suck into Chi Yu, and that mon is hella broken.

I'll edit in more thoughts later.

 

[snake]

Venomicon-Epilogue @ Vile Vial
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

Ebook has a strangely high defensive utility for how offensive it is. Great Tusk needs Ice Spinner to hit it, Arghonaut lets it in mostly for free, and it can trade versus some Iron Valiant variants (Valiant needs boosted coverage to KO). Between these three Pokemon alone, Ebook is going to have an entry point to switch in safely against most teams. Tera Flying Brave Birds are very fun to dish out in an offensive metagame where Great Tusk / Arghonaut want to switch out, and none of their teammates can really effectively switch in. As always, U-turn and/or Stealth Rock can be swapped out for Knock Off and/or Coil, but Venomicon has slotted pretty well into a Sun team as a Stealth Rock setter that isn't a dedicated lead (like Glimmora or Garchomp) and as a really offensive Pokemon with a immunity to Ground.

 

[Doomstadt]

Krilowatt @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Surf

Really enjoying using this set right now. How it's played hasn't really changed much. Lack of steels like Ferrothorn have done wonders for it. Breaks the majority of defensive cores 2kho most after rocks or doing a sizable chunky of damage overall. Comes in on Corvknight and Garganacl. Revenges non scarf Chi yu and Ebook. Sahajara can be annoying but just dies to ice beam if you play it correctly. All while being able to privot in other breakers to help constantly keep up momentum. Tera Flying is to remove ground immunity you still do good damage even with the moves not being stab.

I have two replays too show how impactful it can be. Apologize in advance I'm not the best.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9cap-1756348740-egeki6u3l63bs1mat1fk6j8pdj81cs9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9cap-1756357741-hb26mo8lrat6jq2w40hgiwj9u9eekmdpw

And goat core
Double Fishin (pokepast.es)

 

[Yu_IOTJ]

Stratagem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Rock / Grass / Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Paleo Wave
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Energy Ball

I've been using Specs Strata so that it doesn't completely have to wait on the sidelines for Meteor Beam, and so far, it's been doing real good for me. It's faster than all but two unboosted mons in the metagame, Chien-Pao and Dragapult. And with levitate it bypasses sticky web and spikes shenanigans. I like using it to bust holes mid game, but it's also fast enough that it's an effective cleaner so long as it avoids the two faster mons and strong priority.

Here's the main team I've been using with it. Also if you like Brute Bonnet, it's also in there, but feel free to replace it with something else, like Chien-Pao or whatever. Da Team

 

[playfulbears]

Cawmodore @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate / Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Belly Drum
- Bullet Punch
- Drill Peck
- Acrobatics

Cyclizar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 244 HP / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Shed Tail

Been using this core for a while now and damn, is it good. Shed tail is already an amazing move but when paired with Cawmodore it becomes almost broken. To start neither share a weakness and Caw resists 2 out of 4 of Cyc's weaknesses as well as resisting a multitude of other types, basically allowing it to almost always keep Cyc's sub up for at least the next turn but could last even longer. This then obviously allows Caw to use belly drum and from there on out you can then tera into flying and sweep with acrobatics or at the least destroy half a team, and if you do come across something that may be faster than bullet punch can be used to be on the safe side. Which has won me multiple games solely using these 2 mons without anything else, pretty great duo if I do say so myself.

 

[Gekokeso]

This might be a shocker to y'all especially those who watch my CAP kickoff matches but I think Chi-Yu needs to go. There is not a single more metagame wrapping Mon that this thing, especially when playing it in sun. Your switchins to Tera fire Chi-Yu under sun don't exist, you have to use Assault vest on stuff like Astrolotl or fucking HOUNDOOM if you want to have anything resembling a reliable switch in throughout a match which says a lot. Conventional answers to other stuff like Argho just get smoked by Overheat. It speaks volumes when a single Mon causes Malaconda, the Mon so bad it was been discussed for it to get reworked from scratch, to have a genuine OU niche for the first time since gen 5 probably and not just be a ladder gimmick Mon.

Some other quick thoughts:
Best Mon in the tier. Can do speed control, hazard removal, revenge kill and more, especially useful since it can somewhat tank a couple of hits from Chi-Yu (Sun tera fire overheat still does 55% to vest so food for thought)
Great sun setter and overall really good as a switch in to the dons, trace scarf is also great.
While Jumbao is the overall better Mon, Malaconda is the better sun setter solely because of parting shot which allows Chi-Yu and others to switch in for free. Does has some other nice utility in glare and other stuff tho.
Nice argho sidegrade which actually beats Caw instead of just being able to pray for you to live acro then circle throw.

 

[Garrett]

Some late night thoughts of CAP-specific things to this meta.

feels ok. I think Gholdengo is significantly worse here with Bulletproof Libra as a lingering threat in the builder, and that has seriously stunted the fever dream of Caribolt being a balance staple (unless you believe in Mold Breaker Defog Hawlucha). With what likely will be an OU Tera + Chi-Yu ban soon, Caribolt has improved potential to run SD + Rapid Spin as an offensive tool on balance.

The sun setters. has U-Turn and Parting Shot for keeping momentum, as well as Glare for utility, but building Protosynthesis breakers alongside it presents serious, perhaps unpatchable holes when teambuilding. At the same time, you can seriously and somewhat-consistently jack up the already-strong power of a Roaring Moon or Great Tusk. is a valuable Fairy type but relies on Fire Tera Blast or Focus Blast to hit certain switch-ins for any sort of damage. Healing Wish could be a monster move, however. I like the sun difference from regular OU.

I totally can see Specs being fine once the meta cools down a bit. Boomburst is more potent when teams don't commit to Ferro + Heatran + Dragapult that controlled SS CAP and SS OU, and the Trick option is excellent since it feels rare (especially since we are faster than Gholdengo).

is insane, not anything new to contribute on why it's the goat.

has some surprise factor since running Stomping Tantrum is no longer required to snipe a Heatran (sure, you "need coverage" for things like Ceruledge but this is an Arghonaut meta). More Encore, Taunt, and even Healing Wish are on the cards for the defensive sets (which I expect to improve with a Chi-Yu ban, as you're not pouring into Max SpDef anymore).

is my wild card. I don't believe in Contrary sets right now (even if Skeledirge wasn't popular), but a defensive Battle Armor set (or some Swords Dance + Synthesis tomfoolery, since you're never burned) appears significantly stronger in gen 9.

 

[nutritious blend]

This meta feels very strange and empty. There are new mons this gen that feel like they are directly replacing some of CAP's staples (think over , over , over ). The movepool changes hurt. I was really hoping for to be good this gen, I was planning to build a F*** Status core with Paj and , but the movepool is so shallow and why would you run Paj over any of the amazing ghost or dragon types that were released this gen. With the handful of teams I've tried, sun feels really really strong in CAP, screens+shed tail strats are strong, and balance feels really strong thanks to the combination of ,, , argo, , and running around. Feels like team composition is 4/5 gen 9 mons + 1 CAP and maybe add dragapult right now.

MOD EDIT: COMBINING POSTS
The last thing I wanted to say was about this
I want it to be good in this generation, still trying to figure out how to pilot it best. I feel like it wants to set up since it can ignore the unaware threats that are so prevalent, but what do you run? SD + 3 atks? 2 atks + recover? If you run set up, it feels like a waste to run first impression/uturn. I tried an HDB set but it just felt like worse slither wing and i was frustrated because I couldn't find a way to get the most out of its great ability.
TLDR, plz bring back dragon hammer.

 

[dex]

Feels like team composition is 4/5 gen 9 mons + 1 CAP and maybe add dragapult right now.

That was the case in gen 8 too. And gen 7. And gen 6. And gen 5. That's just how CAP is. Not every CAP will be good. We have the buff process that helps with that a bit, but that's how things work.

 

[nutritious blend]

That was the case in gen 8 too. And gen 7. And gen 6. And gen 5. That's just how CAP is. Not every CAP will be good. We have the buff process that helps with that a bit, but that's how things work.

I get it, and I actually really like the role compression with certain CAP mons that allows you to integrate with good OU teams. I think when it comes to the buffing process, I'll be paying close attention to what moves get added. At least right now, there are mons that feel like they have the opposite of 4MSS, they have like one or two attacks they want to use and that's it.

 

[SHSP]

Wanna pop in after a bit of kickoff, the Tera suspect, and some more games of my own, and give some thoughts on a handful of things before CL starts up. (Sidenote: sign up for CL :])

HO: HO feels super weird to use in this meta. I fully went into SV expecting CAP to be a disaster based around who could Shed Tail a sub to Cawm first, but I really couldn't have been more wrong in that prediction. Between the amazing suite of Unaware mons and general bulky stuff like Garg, it's been super difficult to build and play. Some notes on specific mons-

I genuinely think Cawm is really bad right now. It doesn't really do much of anything into stuff like Dirge, Dozo and even Argh, and offers really little in offensive matchups as well. I want to say there's room to explore with it, Tera Blast shenanigans to get around checks, but even then I think it's going to struggle.

I feel super conflicted about the ostrich. I think it, alongside stuff like Hatterene and even Garganacl, give a really strong tool to HO teams- a way to cheese through Unaware options. Tera's staying intact also helps it a lot, but even then, I think it is kind of prone to whiffing and not really having much of an effect on a match. Feels awful to lose to, but also feels awful to never get an opportunity for it to get rolling. Something I need to mess around with a lot more.

This mon had a lot of experimentation at the end of SS, and I think its ready to hit the ground running in SV. I am a full blown Caribolt believer after my early testing with it, I genuinely think its a very solid option especially as a HO cleaner.

CAPs: There are a lot of caps I think are genuinely pretty viable, even if some of it is just on paper to me as I mess around with more stuff. I think a pretty clear top 3 currently are Argh, Jumbao and Libra, all three having a huge shaping effect on CAP compared to OU at the start of the gen. Libra in particular is a huge differentiation, blanking a LOT of what Gholdengo can do and effecting a lot of other stuff like Iron Valiant.

I've said my piece about ebook earlier in the thread, and not much has changed there, but I've also noticed a LOT of base book, something I'm not as sold on. Talked it through with some of the guys in call watching the games earlier (this is a CAP discord plug btw come through and chat) and the consensus was that Sludge Bomb is a really good move! NP wincon sets seem to get a lot of milage out of Tera typings, including Tera Ground to pretend like it still has Earth Power, and this Rocks/U-Turn set is awfully popular despite me being very not sold on it.

I think Kril is absolutely incredible right now. It can be super punishing to switch into right now, and the fact there's a ton less Knock in the meta helps it oh so much. Really great speed tier, a really good option for a typing that really doesn't exist as much right now (electric), and beats the hell out of pretty much any ground that threatens switching in.

The king is back, baby. Hawk has felt really amazing to use, especially with the rise of new-age Lando T aka Great Tusk. Having to run Heat Wave over fighting STAB with all the Libra running around sucks, though. Super nice glue mon right now IMO.

I'm still very unsold on Chromera. I think the idea of Tera Normal Boomburst nuclear warhead sets are enough to give it a real niche, but I don't buy into it being all that great quite yet, especially with a lot of good Steels, Ghosts and mons that Tera into either.

Some other thoughts:

I'm such a fan of this thing. Super flexible, amazing speed tier, Flower Trick's a great move, and it's a really punishing Spiker. Reminds me a LOT of how Greninja used to play, almost a hybrid of Protean sets and how Ash Gren spiked on everything. Boots might be my favorite set of the lot, especially with how flexible its options are- Knock/U-Turn/Flower Trick, and then another attack like Play Rough, or utility like either Spike or even Taunt.

As CAP's resident Pawmot purveyor, I feel obliged to spread the good word of the SV Electric rat. The thing actually hits pretty hard with Double Shock or CC, has some really cool options like Volt and the elemental punches, and of course, almighty Revival Blessing that pairs amazingly with stuff like Chien-Pao. It also quietly has a really amazing option right now, IMO, with Mach Punch in a meta that seems to live and die by priority. I've been mostly running Leppa- it hasn't been uncommon to actually get to click two Revivals a game and really dramatically shift the tempo.

Hurricane, Knock, U-Turn, Heat Wave, weird coverage... isn't this just Torn? Haven't messed around too much with it but early tests have been good.

 

[Steam Buns]

I've said my piece about ebook earlier in the thread, and not much has changed there, but I've also noticed a LOT of base book, something I'm not as sold on. Talked it through with some of the guys in call watching the games earlier (this is a CAP discord plug btw come through and chat) and the consensus was that Sludge Bomb is a really good move! NP wincon sets seem to get a lot of milage out of Tera typings, including Tera Ground to pretend like it still has Earth Power, and this Rocks/U-Turn set is awfully popular despite me being very not sold on it.

I tried rocks u-turn very early on and quickly decided that I prefer hurricane + bpress, the offensive combo threatens every spinner in the tier, making rocks very easy to keep up, on top of massively expanding the list of mons it can check.

Venomicon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Body Press
- Hurricane

 

[nutritious blend]

I've built a lot of teams for this new meta, I think CAP mons add a lot of fun to the builder. Many are worse than what is available in OU, idc. But I saw in the chat someone asking for a team. I assume we'll have a bazaar after Home comes out, but in the meantime, I found something in my builder that I think fairs pretty well in the latest viability ranking: S TIER AND S TIER (pokepast.es)

It's an extra challenge to build teams with 2+ CAP mons on them. If you're going to do it, why not use all of the best ones! I would call this a balance team, but there is no volt-turn and dual hazards so I think it's more realistically bulky offense built around 2 main cores. Since there are two hazard setters, I usually lead with one of them. And then just try and maintain momentum with lots of switching. Sometimes you get those turns wrong, so 5/6 mons have access to recovery. Double dragon, double steel, double flying. Everything has a defensive tera type except for the two main offensive threats featured at the bottom of this post.

For starters, and are best friends. Spikes + Good as Gold, Ghost/Steel + Water/Fighting, Recover, Make it Rain, Unaware, Circle Throw, their synergy is fab. Gholdengo faces a lot of pressure with denying hazards, so it gets extra support from since it can handle argho, the books, cawmadore, opposing gholdengo, and spread status pretty effectively. Will consider replacing this with when that mon becomes available, and you could make the already meta-friendly pick of to function similarly.

feels like the weakest link in some matchups and an unkillable monster in others. Not sure it has the best synergy with the rest of the team but it's a great pivot and S tier so it's on the team ok! I think it is a nice defensive counterpart to gholdengo since it wins against bulletproof sets which give gholdengo a headache and is the anti-clodsire.

and feel like the clutch factor. Tinted Lens tera flying is very fun and functions like a Z-Explosion at home. I use Gunk Shot as the other attacking move because i think it hits things like Garg and Skeledirge and Rotom and Garchomp on the switch for good free damage. I could see wanting Knock Off or somehow a different set. Dragonite has its usual set. I find that these two make an offensive core for perfect revenge killing most of the time. And I find its usually right when the opponent uses up their tera and I get a free switch.

Hope my description helps and I hope to see you on the ladder!

 

[Brambane]

note: this post was its own thread and has been moved to this thread to condense discussion to the relevant thread

With Seasonal and CAPCL in progress, I think we have a decent sample size of games and building happening to assess the current state of SV CAP. Due to the limited pool of Pokemon currently in SV OU, CAP’s additions have had a significant impact on the metagame and developed a distinct landscape from SV OU. While many staples thrive in both tiers, such as Great Tusk and Skeledirge, others like Gholdengo and Iron Valiant face greater opposition from the presence of CAPs. However, there are several CAPs that have taken the changes from Gen 8 to 9 and ran with them, straining the ability both to prepare for and play around them.

The CAPs below are listed purely in order of creation.

Revenankh

Anyone who has touched SV since the Gen 9 updates is well-aware this Pokemon is beyond unreasonable. Rev has virtually no consistent answers except Tera Fairy Garganacl, itemless Unaware mons, and what, Armor Tail Farigiraf? Tera Ghost Poltergeist will 2HKO Arghonaut and does 35% minimum to mf PHYSDEF DONDOZO, meaning that it can feasibly beat it over the Rest cycle if Dondozo switches in with enough high rolls or a crit. Or, if you are feeling particularly saucy, Metronome Reveankh just crushes Dondozo reliably while still 2HKOing Argh. Rev’s natural bulk also makes it able to trade very effectively against many offensive threats, with +3 Priority being an amazing follow-up to its strong Poltergeist. Being able to live a SE Specs Shadow Ball from Dragapult while still running max Attack Adamant and enough Speed move before Arghonaut’s Knock Off is frankly amazing when you can two tap it with Shadow Sneak.

I am not going to post my immediate “solutions” to address all the CAPs in this post, but its pretty obvious that the issue with Rev atm is how strong its Tera Ghost Poltergeist is, and that returning Poltergeist to its movepool was an experiment too successful.

Krilowatt

These is some important historical context for Krilowatt, since for most of its lifespan its fluctuated between being one of the best Pokemon in the format (DPP and BW) to borderline unviable (SWSH.) Krilowatt’s strength lies simply in strong STABs + coverage with the ability to go completely unpunished by chip. Krilowatt is often content to let the opponent get up hazards against it in exchange for keeping your hazards up in its most favorable match-ups, as the damage from Spikes and Stealth Rock aid in its breaking while it suffers zero consequence for the opponent’s hazards. This is best seen in DPP and BW, where its ability to maximize either passive damage from Spikes or sand chip (or in BW, run Thunder and rain-boosted Surfs) against the opponent makes it an absolute headache. Likewise, in SHSW where Boots have been introduced, defensive Pokemon have an additional tool against Krilowatt. The best way to match Krilowatt defensively (aside from the likes of Storm Drain Gastrodon) is to replicate its best trait, which HDB and even Regenerator can replicate. And the best Pokemon for this has always been Clefable.

Clefable’s own Magic Guard, access to Knock Off, and good special bulk makes it the ideal answer to Krilowatt. In DPP, it is basically the only consistent answer to Krilowatt. It is no coincidence that Krilowatt’s best generation, BW, is also the generation that has the least amount of Clefable. Well, SV doesn’t have Clefable. And a lot of the Pokemon that could eat a hit, Knock it, and then Regen the health back over the course of the game (think Pex, Ferro, and Torn-T) have lost that ability or presence.

The result is a metagame incredibly favorable for Krilowatt. Anyone who has built for SV has realized that their team has limited or no Krilowatt switch-ins, and that is no fault of the builder. They simply either don’t exist or are so incredibly fringe that you would need to warp your building to respond to it specifically using shit like Gastrodon or Water Absorb Clodsire, Rev (who is also broken), attempting to out offensive it with something like Sun, or you hope you can catch it with a Tera. And even then, the ladder two are still unreliable solutions since Krilowatt is absurdly good at trading into offensive threats. It’s ridiculous HP allows it to live so much and take favorable exchanges without the repercussions of dying to LO chip or hazards later.

There is also the fact that Krilowatt is a perfect Volt Switch user for SV. Not only does it get STAB and Magic Guard, but its coverage hits every common Volt Switch answer in the format for a 2HKO. And with Tera boosting Surf or even Ice Beam (risky, but Krilowatt doesn't care bout its SR weakness and Ice neutralizes all its weaknesses,) it breaks through defensive cores with ease. Even with CAPs greater Knock Off distribution, Krilowatt remains obnoxious and can feel unkillable.

Jumbao

There isn’t a single “game-breaking” element to Jumbao, but a collective sum of attributes that make it overwhelmingly powerful in Gen 9. The first and most in-your-face part is Drought + Tera Fire. There aren’t a lot of things that can switch into Jumbao until Tera is revealed. Skeledirge can eat everything except the rare Shadow Ball, as can say Ceruledge, but that’s about it unless you start to look at shit like Blissey. Even full SpDef Book falls to the mighty Drought-boosted Life Orb Tera Blast. This makes Jumbao a formidable balance breaker that can dismantle most common defensive cores.

Tera Fire Jumbao by itself is strong, but the game has some answers and will eventually introduce more like Moltres in the future. But Drought also turns some of the already strong Pokemon in the format into monsters. Great Tusk in the sun is damn near the best Pokemon in the meta. It offers removal, Speed control, and near unrivaled breaking potential in a single teamslot. Even the common answers, i.e. Venomicon, get obliterated by Protosynthesis-amped moves such as Head Smash and Stone Edge. Iron Moth becomes an absolute nuke that demands something like Flash Fire or a 4x Fire resist to answer. Roaring Moon can afford to run more sets, making it quite unpredictable, with sun support. And Sandy Shocks goes from decent and strong, especially considering how well it covers some of Jumbao’s weaknesses when it doesn’t use Terastalize.

Jumbao’s combination of team support through Drought and breaking power with Tera Fire makes it an overbearing presence in the metagame. I think if Chien-Pao leaves, its monstrous presence will only be amplified as Pokemon like Sandy Shocks and Roaring Moon have fewer strong and fast Ice moves to fear.

Venomicon-Prologue

“Book moment” has been a phrase since the earliest stages of SV CAP. This Pokemon is difficult to switch in versus, but also one of the best anti-Rapid Spin Pokemon in the format. Most Spinners dare not click Spin against it, as all it does is provide an even stronger Body Press and make it a headache to break. Many, many games have been cracked open, if not finished outright, due to a defensive boost from spinning against Venomicon. Knock Off and Sludge Bomb are both excellent tools for Venomicon; it can make tremendous progress in a game with Roost/Body Press/Sludge or Knock/Hurricane or Sludge when it isn’t winning the game outright. There isn’t much else to say, this Pokemon is just extremely good and efficient at what it does.

Its effective match-up into spinners also makes it a solid Stealth Rock user, but the main “overpowered” set is definitely three attacks. Nasty Plot has fallen off tremendously, and is at best a fish set that still has potential, but lacks the consistency of three attacks.

Other Pokemon

There are some other CAPs which I have discussed with players in the community that could probably be brought up more in this thread. This is definitely the place to bring them up before the next project, so I encourage players to not just focus on the above four if there are other concerning threats in the metagame.

As we proceed with the on-going tournaments and meta-development, I think it's critical we keep these CAPs on the radar and be prepared to make changes if necessary to improve the quality of our metagame. It is expected and natural that our discourse in this thread changes due to changes that may occur in OU.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Damn, had a draft post saved in the other thread but now that draft is gone

Anyway, I'm far from the best player, but I have some opinions. I'm also not sure if we're at the point of discussing specific nerfs, so apologies if this is too soon.



Revenankh, proof that Fighting/Ghost types are always broken. At first glance, removing Poltergeist seems like the obvious solution, as Revenankh wasn't a problem at all before receiving it, so we know for a fact that it would work. However, Revenankh is also technically unranked (I say technically because it was removed from the VR before it got Poltergeist), so if we want Revenankh to still have some viability, removing Poltergeist might not be the best solution.

Brambane mentioned being able to survive Dragapult's Shadow Ball. A Sp. Defense cut of -30 allows Dragapult to OHKO it after Stealth Rock.

(80 SPD) 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 128 HP / 108 SpD Revenankh: 348-410 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I also think removing Drain Punch would make Revenankh a bit easier to handle. Removing its strongest priority move would make it easier to check offensively while nerfing its healing potential. While it still has Moonlight, I think cutting off its ability to damage and heal at the same time would still make it easier to handle.



Maybe replace Ice Beam with Aurora Beam? I think just cutting Ice Beam is too strong of a nerf, Aurora Beam still gives it a little something against Grass and Dragon types while still being weaker.

252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 187-221 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Aurora Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumbao: 133-159 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 187-221 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Aurora Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 135-161 (38.4 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



Jumbao's two big problems are damage output and sun support. I don't love the idea of cutting into its sun supporting capabilities because it goes against its original concept (yes I know about the Gen 7 nerf), but cutting into its power is a good idea IMO. A Sp. Attack nerf of -33 prevents it from being to 2HKO Prologue.

(91 SPA) 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Jumbao Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon in Sun: 153-183 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Jumbao is also just generally weaker now. 91 Sp. Attack isn't particularly good for OU/CAP standards while also not being atrocious. It still retains pretty good bulk and its ability to provide sun support which would keep it viable without making it as strong. This nerf has a lot of potential to age terribly (when Tera almost certainly doesn't return to Gen 10 or if Tera gets banned before then, or just general power creep when the DLC comes), but it can always be reverted like Equilibra's nerf.

EDIT: This is probably too strong of a nerf



I don't think this is broken personally, but if it were to be nerfed, I would cut into its Defense. I haven't gone into the damage calculator yet with this one, but it seems like an effective way to nerf both its bulk and Body Press damage output at the same time.