RU X/Y speculation, a look into the possible future

[EonX]

As much as I like Life Orb on Virizion, I like Lum Berry a lot more. Virizion just wants to set up on defensive Water- and Grass-type Pokemon and most of these mons have status moves to cripple Virizion (Scald, Toxic, etc.) and Lum Berry lets it avoid this and reliably set up SD on many more threats.

 

[alexwolf]

SD Toxicroak is looking quite good. Sets up on Suicune and +2 Gunk Shot hurts like hell, while also having strong priority and a STAB move to offset the LO recoil. Oh, and +2 Adamant LO Gunk Shot does like 96% minimum to max HP / max Def+ Reuniclus, so Toxicroak dgaf.

 

[TC Terra]

It would be nice if Toxicroak got Hone Claws to boost that accuracy for Gunk Shot but then again, Suicune can't touch Toxicroak as it would only have Scald. So Toxicroak does seem like a more than viable sweeper imo. Pretty Great STABs as well and it has Sucker Punch to revenge kill things that are faster than it as well.

 

[EonX]

Yeah, SD Croak is p. neat. Not the first thing you'd think of as a sweeper, but it beats any Cune without Roar and its STABs compliment each other quite well. +2 Gunk Shot hits like a mac truck and Drain Punch is there for a safer, more accurate STAB move for when you need to hit above all else. The types also synergize well offensively with Gunk Shot donking Fairies that beat most other Fighting-types while Drain Punch drills Steels that want to come in on most other Poison-types. Just make sure Zygarde is weakened, or better yet, KOed, so it can't wrek yo shiz with EQ.

 

[phantom]

I'd like to bring another Pokemon into discussion:

Milotic is a great Pokemon in this metagame due to its ability to check / counter a significant portion of the tier; it can even run an effective offensive set on spike-stacking teams!

What differentiates Milotic from Suicune is its access to reliable recovery, and what separates it from Slowking is its slightly higher SpD stat and significantly better speed, it also doesn't have those nasty weaknesses to Bug-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves.

Here are the sets I've been using:

Milotic @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Trait: Marvel Scale
-Scald
-Recover
-Haze
-Toxic

This set counters / checks a huge portion of specially based attackers, including Yanmega, Porygon-Z, Moltres, Mismagius, Houndoom, Nidoqueen, Reuniclus, Venomoth, etc. Basically, the key to this set is haze, which prevents bulky set up sweepers from walking all over it. Scald is also pretty neat to patch up Milotic's physical defense as is Marvel Scale should it come in to absorb a Scald from another bulky water.

Milotic @ Life Orb
Timid Nature
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Trait: Competitive
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power Grass
-Recover

I know this set looks strange, but it's really effective in practice. The entire premise is to pair Milotic with something that can set up Spikes (Froslass). Now, Competitive discourages the use of Defog considering that Milotic will gain a +2 Special Attack boost if it comes in on it. At +2, Milotic hits insanely hard and is really difficult to stop in the case of slower teams due to its fantastic coverage, bulk, good speed, and recovery. Just to give you an idea: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-183 (48.1 - 56.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. So basically, not even a bulky resist with 91/129 defenses likes to switch in! Timid is essential due to that fact that Milotic sits in a trolly speed tier (81), which lets it just barely outspeed Jolly Gallade and fire off a powerful Hydro Pump.

I haven't tried out a RestTalk set, but I assume it isn't that bad with the sleep mechanics reverting. Once the tiers begin to settle a bit more and certain things move up (Raikou, Shaymin) and certain things get banned (Suicune, Kyurem), I expect Milotic to come out as a top-tier threat in this meta.

 

[TC Terra]

I'd like to bring another Pokemon into discussion:

Milotic is a great Pokemon in this metagame due to its ability to check / counter a significant portion of the tier; it can even run an effective offensive set on spike-stacking teams!

What differentiates Milotic from Suicune is its access to reliable recovery, and what separates it from Slowking is its slightly higher SpD stat and significantly better speed, it also doesn't have those nasty weaknesses to Bug-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves.

Here are the sets I've been using:

Milotic @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Trait: Marvel Scale
-Scald
-Recover
-Haze
-Toxic

This set counters / checks a huge portion of specially based attackers, including Yanmega, Porygon-Z, Moltres, Mismagius, Houndoom, Nidoqueen, Reuniclus, Venomoth, etc. Basically, the key to this set is haze, which prevents bulky set up sweepers from walking all over it. Scald is also pretty neat to patch up Milotic's physical defense as is Marvel Scale should it come in to absorb a Scald from another bulky water.

Milotic @ Life Orb
Timid Nature
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Trait: Competitive
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power Grass
-Recover

I know this set looks strange, but it's really effective in practice. The entire premise is to pair Milotic with something that can set up Spikes (Froslass). Now, Competitive discourages the use of Defog considering that Milotic will gain a +2 Special Attack boost if it comes in on it. At +2, Milotic hits insanely hard and is really difficult to stop in the case of slower teams due to its fantastic coverage, bulk, good speed, and recovery. Just to give you an idea: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-183 (48.1 - 56.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. So basically, not even a bulky resist with 91/129 defenses likes to switch in! Timid is essential due to that fact that Milotic sits in a trolly speed tier (81), which lets it just barely outspeed Jolly Gallade and fire off a powerful Hydro Pump.

I haven't tried out a RestTalk set, but I assume it isn't that bad with the sleep mechanics reverting. Once the tiers begin to settle a bit more and certain things move up (Raikou, Shaymin) and certain things get banned (Suicune, Kyurem), I expect Milotic to come out as a top-tier threat in this meta.

What about AV set? I used it and it's pretty good. I'll post the one I'm using of you like. Also away from Milotic, what do you guys think of Froslass? I think it can make a pretty good lead.

 

[Loudo]

What about AV set? I used it and it's pretty good. I'll post the one I'm using of you like. Also away from Milotic, what do you guys think of Froslass? I think it can make a pretty good lead.

What's with the mania to slap AV on everything? I understand that AV is a shiny new toy, but why use it on a Pokémon with base 125 SpD and Recover?

As much as I like Life Orb on Virizion, I like Lum Berry a lot more. Virizion just wants to set up on defensive Water- and Grass-type Pokemon and most of these mons have status moves to cripple Virizion (Scald, Toxic, etc.) and Lum Berry lets it avoid this and reliably set up SD on many more threats.

I actually have been using Virizion in UU and I couldn't agree more.

 

[termi]

What about AV set? I used it and it's pretty good. I'll post the one I'm using of you like. Also away from Milotic, what do you guys think of Froslass? I think it can make a pretty good lead.

An Assault Vest Milotic sounds p. bad tbh. When your SpD is this high already and your SpA isn't all that, you want something else (especially when you have reliable recovery to work with - RestTalk was one of Milotic's most famous sets last gen, and otherwise she used Recover -)

Pokemon that would work w/ AV would be Tangrowth (great mixed offenses, excellent physical bulk, AV turns its lackluster SpD stat to greater heights, Regenerator + Giga Drain ensure that the loss of Lefties won't be felt), Druddion (some neat resistances to work with, hits like a truck), Escavalier (good bulk, almost no weaknesses, AV gives it plenty of switching opportunity) and other than these there might be a couple of other mons that become good with AV due to the nature of the meta, we have yet to see which ones they will be.

To spark some new discussion: How good will Trick Room be this gen, what with all the great setters around (Reuniclus, Slowking, Cresselia, Aromatisse etc.) as well as a lot of great abusers (Escavalier, Rhyperior, Tangrowth, Druddigon etc.)?

 

[TC Terra]

As for Trick Room setters I think Aromatisse will be pretty bad and would be outclassed by all the others. Doesn't have that great of a movepool and barely any offensive presence to any team. (Sounds familiar Dusclops?). I think Trick Room would be very good as there are a lot of bulky slow attackers everywhere which makes great use to Trick Room.


Also, when I talked about AV Milotic , you say it's bad when it already has good SDef, but when people put AV on Goodra, it's a different story. Seems kinda hypocritical but w/e. I think Trick Room would be great this generation.

 

[Hidious]

Let's talk about this guy:

Although being blessed with a mega stone, Houndoom has been used sparingly in the UU beta and will most certainly fall to RU this generation. However, being one of the few mega pokemon allowed in RU, the canine is destined to "doom" most of the meta to hell!

In Sun, Mega Houndoom is a frightening wallbreaker. With a little sun support preferably supplied by a teammate (Uxie and Regirock are good teammates), he is very difficult to stop. He also sits at a great speed tier of 115, outspeeding all but a few of the unboosted metagame.

Potential Moveset:

Houndoom @ Houndoomite
Timid Nature
Flash Fire >>> Solar Power
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Sunny Day / Nasty Plot
Fire Blast
Dark Pulse
Solar Beam / Hidden Power Grass / Destiny Bond

Potential Checks and Counters:

Snorlax
Hariyama
Choice Scarf users

Potential Teammates:

Rapid Spin / Defog support
Sun Support: Regirock, Uxie
Offensive / Defensive synergy: Reuniclus, Azelf, Zygarde, Honchkrow, Flygon, Cresselia, Victreebell, Tangrowth,

 

[Loudo]

Also, when I talked about AV Milotic , you say it's bad when it already has good SDef, but when people put AV on Goodra, it's a different story. Seems kinda hypocritical but w/e. I think Trick Room would be great this generation.

If Goodra could learn Recover or had Marvel Scale, no one would use Assault Vest on it.

 

[termi]

As for Trick Room setters I think Aromatisse will be pretty bad and would be outclassed by all the others. Doesn't have that great of a movepool and barely any offensive presence to any team. (Sounds familiar Dusclops?). I think Trick Room would be very good as there are a lot of bulky slow attackers everywhere which makes great use to Trick Room.

Well, Aromatisse would be a niche Pokemon, but a good one on full Trick Room teams, as it's one of the few TR setters to resist Dark, rather than being weak to it. It's also got a great support movepool with Aromatherapy and Wish to get sweepers in more easily and staying healthy itself, and thanks to its ability she can't be taunted. It won't be amazing, but it'd have its niche.

 

[Jvasss]

this may be naive of me, as i havent had achance to play this gens ru, but all these people ( on this thread) were talking about how good suicune is, a few pages back, however according to the usage stats, raikou is in the tier, form my experience of gen 5 uu, specs raikou can 2hko suicune even with a cm up. maybe I am missing something, anyway i am pumped for when this tier goes into the beta stage with a ladder etc

 

[Hidious]

this may be naive of me, as i havent had achance to play this gens ru, but all these people ( on this thread) were talking about how good suicune is, a few pages back, however according to the usage stats, raikou is in the tier, form my experience of gen 5 uu, specs raikou can 2hko suicune even with a cm up. maybe I am missing something, anyway i am pumped for when this tier goes into the beta stage with a ladder etc

A pokemon isn't better just because it can beat the other pokemon one on one. Almost every pokemon has checks and counters. The "best" pokemon in a tier are judged on how well they perform against the meta as a whole. Does Suicune perform its role better than Raikou in the RU metagame? Is suicune easier to fit into a successful team than Raikou? Those are the questions that need to be answered, not who beats whom mano-a-mano.

 

[Jvasss]

You sort of misunderstood me, I was more asking how is suicune so good in a metagame with some of its biggest checks in the same tier, toxicoraok, shaymin and raikou. I was also asking is it as good as the people's couple of pages back were saying, some were saying that it was almost always the last thing to die. Dw worry if what I am saying is wrong it doesn't really matter as I am not gonna have time to play ru for a while anyway

 

[atomicllamas]

You sort of misunderstood me, I was more asking how is suicune so good in a metagame with some of its biggest checks in the same tier, toxicoraok, shaymin and raikou. I was also asking is it as good as the people's couple of pages back were saying, some were saying that it was almost always the last thing to die. Dw worry if what I am saying is wrong it doesn't really matter as I am not gonna have time to play ru for a while anyway

I guess I can address this post, while it is true that Suicune loses to Shaymin and Toxicroak most of the time, and both are very good in the current meta, it is almost impossible to get around Suicune without one of these. On the other hand, it is really risky to use Raikou as your only counter to Suicune, as it is really easily worn down through the course of the match, as it doesn't like repeatedly switching into scalds, and is susceptible to every kind of hazard. Suicune also has no issue switching out of these counters mid game due to its huge bulk meaning there will be at least one thing on your opponents team that it can burn sleep turns in front of. Right now I'd say that Toxicroak, Shaymin, and Poliwhirl are some of the best answers to Suicune right now, Toxicroak and Poliwrath are immune to (what is often) Suicune's only attacking move and Toxicroak can set up while Poliwrath can use Circle Throw. Shaymin doesn't mind switching into scald, because of typing, bulk, and Natural Cure, but must watch out for more offensive sets with Ice Beam (+1 0/0 Suicune lives LO Seed Flare, and does 80% in return with a 252 SpA Ice Beam, meaning you essentially trade mons).

Another cool option for Suicune is pairing it with a spike stacking pokemon like Froslass, and drop Sleep Talk for Roar, which allows it to get around Toxicroak and Poliwrath (unless it speed creeps for Roar). I got that idea from complete legitimacy though, so all credit to him.

Anyways, Suicune is still a fantastic mon in XY RU (read: the best @_@), because it is a really self sufficient late game sweeper, and mid game tank. It pretty much beats 70% of the usable RU mons in the tier by itself (like 85% after one CM) meaning that while there are a couple checks and counters, it doesn't really have a hard time dominating the meta-game.

Anyone have any cool answers to Suicune I haven't thought of? Mega-Amphy is legit, Shaymin, the frogs (Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and I guess like Water Absorb Politoed with Perish Song and Encore? (is that worth it idk, just thought of it now ?_?)), anything else?

 

[Haru Piro]

Anyone have any cool answers to Suicune I haven't thought of? Mega-Amphy is legit, Shaymin, the frogs (Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and I guess like Water Absorb Politoed with Perish Song and Encore? (is that worth it idk, just thought of it now ?_?)), anything else?

Jynx is inmune to Scald and resist Ice Beam, Suicune is setup bait for Sub + NP/LK/3 Attacks sets. But really hate Roar.

 

[col49]

Wait, were people not using CM+Roar Suicune this entire time ?_? Dang, I could've sworn that would've been just, like, the most common set by miles all things considered lol. I'll concede that I haven't gotten as much of an opportunity to actually apply any XY RU concepts in play as many likely have, but given all the positive attributes stacked towards it, Sleep Talk-less Suicune (running Roar, or even a coverage move in lieu of it) comes across as an excellent luxury that it can certainly afford given how potent it is; reverted Sleep mechanics made unsupported Rest far more feasible for conservative boosters, being able to burn off Sleep turns much more realistically, and Suicune in particular is pretty capable of pulling through it to sweep on a consistent enough basis (being bulky as all hell, having Pressure to reinforce its ability to outlast 'mons / avoid issues with crits to some extent, etc.). Furthermore, it allows it to avoid painful Calm Mind wars for the most part, while of course racking up hazard damage on assorted Water immunities. Of course, I have personally considered hazard support to be a major component to teams centralized around more conservatively inclined 'Cunes (are people running cm+3 attacks yet, idk x-x). Speaking of, I figured it would be worth addressing a partner to 'Cune that I haven't seen mentioned yet (or anywhere?):

Weezing @ Black Sludge | Levitate
Bold | 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD | 0 SpA
Toxic Spikes | Clear Smog | Will-O-Wisp / Flamethrower | Rest / Flamethrower

Kids don't know 'bout the tank Weezing, real talk. This monster provides almost ideal team support to a defensively-minded Suicune, from immediate defensive synergy to the more indirect support. For one thing, two of the more widely-discussed counters to Suicune, Toxicroak and Shaymin, are more-or-less hard-walled by Weezing, with the former failing to break through without multiple Gunk Shots connecting while simultaneously avoiding burns, and the latter requiring either Psychic or a Modest nature to ascertain anything beyond a 3HKO from a healthy Weezing. It even has the luxury of checking bulkier Pokemon, such as Escavalier and Zygarde, that attempt to force damage unto it so that a partner can pick it off in turn. Toxic Spikes, a new luxury for Weezing to be introduced this generation, is very solid in tandem with a conservative booster such as Suicune, allowing it to set up against a variety of Pokemon whilst allowing Toxic damage to rack up on them, while also steadily chipping away at checks such as Virizion, Raikou, and so forth. Unfortunately, Weezing doesn't do much in terms of addressing the issue with combatting Electric-types, but that's where team support comes in, so there's not much to be said there. You /can/ run Pain Split if you really want to, but it's really a terrible recovery option for a defensive 'mon, and by this point the team is likely already splurging for cleric support, so I generally consider Rest the superior recovery option in this context.

In terms of alternative Suicune checks / counters, I've actually taken a liking to Water Absorb Cacturne, as he not only offers a Pokemon capable of essentially preventing your team from being swept by the common mono-attackers of the tier, Suicune and Cresselia, but also provides Spikes support and, if need be, a decent offensive presence to avoid being complete set-up bait for something like Zygarde. An inability to throw around Knock Off like most Dark-types is a bit of a drag really, but at the very least it can accommodate with the utility of Sucker Punch to some extent.

 

[Magnegun]

this may be naive of me, as i havent had achance to play this gens ru, but all these people ( on this thread) were talking about how good suicune is, a few pages back, however according to the usage stats, raikou is in the tier, form my experience of gen 5 uu, specs raikou can 2hko suicune even with a cm up. maybe I am missing something, anyway i am pumped for when this tier goes into the beta stage with a ladder etc

Well, Gastro "Beats" rotom-w 1v1 and that doesn't make him better. Same deal here.

 

[EonX]

Yeah, CM+Roar Suicune is devastating with the reverted sleep mechanics. Anyways, I guess to comment on a few things:

First and foremost, Mega-Amphy is about the only Electric-type that can (somewhat) reliably check Suicune since it has a secondary Dragon typing to resist Scald. However, it still has to contend with possible Scald burns wearing it down as well as the fact more offensive variants of Suicune will carry Ice Beam. Raikou is incapable of boosting alongside Suicune (the burn is innevitable) and it has no business running Roar.

Next, Milotic. I honestly feel Milotic has great potential in the long run (aka, when Suicune is banned) There's plenty of powerful setup sweepers in RU currently and being able to run a Pokemon capable of using Haze is amazing. Then there's an offensive set. Don't knock the idea. Milotic has some p. good coverage, reliable recovery, and great 3-move coverage to allow her to run Recover with few issues. Her new ability, Competitive, can also make this type of set better, but I still feel as though Marvel Scale is a little better so she can reliably switch-in on Will-O-Wisp users. Still, Competitive is viable on an offensive set for more aggressive-minded players and I can certainly see it paying off in some situations. Also, base 81 Speed = troll as hell, but I don't think it's enough to try and sweep with. So, maybe a bulkier spread to tank hits as you dish out damage? Will probably be a better idea after Speed tiers begin to form.
Assault Vest is a terrible idea on Milotic though. The best AV users either don't have reliable recovery (Druddigon, Escavalier) or still have passive recovery through an ability (Slowking) Milotic has reliable recovery, much lower physical defense (Drudd, Esca, and King are either balanced or only slightly lopsided) and doesn't have major power in her coverage moves thanks to her meh base 100 Special Attack (at least, without a boosting item) I just don't see the intrigue of it with Slowking seemingly better for the AV thing in every way.

I've tried Mega Houndoom, and it is very nice. I've actually used an All-Out Attacker set (with Sucker Punch over the boosting move) and it works quite well. Use the nice 3-move coverage to break down walls and use Sucker Punch to deal with faster things. That said, NP is probably its best set overall with Sunny Day being the move of choice if boosting Special Attack isn't your thing. (though I'd personally have something more dedicated for that)

 

[Loudo]

First and foremost, Mega-Amphy is about the only Electric-type that can (somewhat) reliably check Suicune since it has a secondary Dragon typing to resist Scald. However, it still has to contend with possible Scald burns wearing it down as well as the fact more offensive variants of Suicune will carry Ice Beam.

Well, if Suicune isn't carrying Ice Beam Dry Skin Heliolisk is en even better Electric counter, isn't it?

 

[Imanalt]

So i've been trying to build a team around mismagius, because it looks so good on paper but i just can't get a team that feels decent. How have people been using mismagius and to what success?

 

[Jaguar360]

Slurpuff is an underrated beast. Every set I've run with it has been great: Calm Mind + Sitrus Berry, Calm Mind + Cotton Guard + Sitrus Berry, Petaya Berry + Wish, Belly Drum...it just works.

I made a team with Shaymin, Scarf Typhlosion, Samurott, Scarf Pangoro, CM + SB Slurpuff and Drudiggon as an RU team, but since no one wants to play on the fusx server I just tried it out in UU Beta. It works really well! I've won 3 out of 4 matches so far and I thought I'd share a couple in this thread. They're not the best matches, but they give you a good idea of how good these guys are.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-89907579
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-89909741
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-89914305

I've found my two scarfers and Slurpuff to be particularly helpful. The most disappointing has been Samurott, but he's still done all right and the Aqua Jet priority and Knock Off are helpful. I might want to get someone with Rapid Spin or Defog on here to help Ty and Slurp out, but for now the team is pretty solid for RU IMO.

 

[Kingpoleon]

We all seem to be ignoring the big elephant in he room. What's a good set for Kyurem anyway?

 

[Jaguar360]

Choice Specs Kyurem is destructive and Substitute Kyurem is also great.
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor
- Substitute

Not sure about the EVs, but they are enough to speed tie with base 100 speed neutral natured Pokemon with 16 EVs. From the damage calculator, it seems 52 HP/220 SAtk/236 Spd with Modest nature is the way to go. I highly doubt that Kyurem will stay RU for very long at all. Some calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 399-469 (103.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 267-315 (69.5 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Shaymin: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 288-340 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 216-255 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yep, strong as hell.