Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

[ChilliTacos]

If only trevenant got sword dance ;;.

But, trev luckily gets Hone Claws! So i made a set that maybe could work.

Trevenant @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake
- Hone Claws
- Wood Hammer

Harvest is pretty bad imo. And trev gets Natural Cure meaning if it gets burned it can switch out to remove it. Hravest Lum Berry is pretty luck based. 50% chance is high but you can be extremly unlucky. And also not everyone is gonna keep Statusing you when you can already dish out high damage. Shadow Claw is for opposing Ghost types and psychich types like Sigilyph. (your not OHKO'd by a Life Orb Heat Wave) Hone Claws is bassically boosting your attack so you can dish out for even more damage. EQ is a wonderful move that can kill pokes like Drapion who would otherwise resist both of your moves. Items, life orb for more offensive power, or lefties for passive recovery. Anyways thats basically the only attacking boosting set up move it gets. You can also use Calm Mind but trev special attack is completely garbage btw. O and evs are max p so you can at least take some hits 76 seed outspeeds jellicent. rest in attack jut so your attacks are strong.

Anyway for its ranking probably it can start at C. Not really gonna say the reasons since everyone kind of said it already.

 

[Natural Talent]

With all the Trevenant noms, I just felt i needed to put out my opinion. i think it Belongs around C and Nothing Higher. It's typing isn't too great , it's move pool is shallow and it's stats aren't that good either. "Best" sets it probably has is that retarded "cathy" set (starf berry) and then a defensive set. Offensive sets aren't good enough it can't break through common walls and much less it can't ko offensive threats. Overall it's a lackluster mon outclassed by the likes of tangrowth.

With that I would like to nom a mon myself.

--> C
I have done some testing of this mon since it was hard counter by Cobalion a threat that has left. It has a great typing bar being super fighting weak. It has a some nice moves being ;

• Stab Knock off, sucker punch, Pursuit and Iron head
• Access to Stealth Rock
• Access to Sword dance
• Gets defiant to punish defog and stat drops from mons such as Aromatisse's moonblast

Some Calcs

252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 111-132 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 136-162 (51.3 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 273-322 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Glalie: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Glalie: 129-153 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Glalie: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 186-222 (60.7 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 93-111 (30.3 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 192-228 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 380-450 (93.5 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive
252 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 184-218 (79.6 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 204-240 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 186-220 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 138-163 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Does have some checks in Scrafty and Mega Steelix but i still feel it's a great mon

 

[tmacbalanced]

With all the Trevenant noms, I just felt i needed to put out my opinion. i think it Belongs around C and Nothing Higher. It's typing isn't too great , it's move pool is shallow and it's stats aren't that good either. "Best" sets it probably has is that retarded "cathy" set (starf berry) and then a defensive set. Offensive sets aren't good enough it can't break through common walls and much less it can't ko offensive threats. Overall it's a lackluster mon outclassed by the likes of tangrowth.

Honestly, that's why I said C rank myself. It requires a lot of support & it's weak to the best pokemon of the tier, except Flygon but it can honestly just U-turn out. It's not even that great against Fighting types, Scrafty beats it & Hitmonlee can just knock off which can OHKO most of the time. It requires a lot of predicting that does not pay off too much even if you get it right. & it has a tough time finding synergy with other pokemon in the tier.

 

[aurora]

If only trevenant got sword dance ;;.

But, trev luckily gets Hone Claws! So i made a set that maybe could work.

Trevenant @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake
- Hone Claws
- Wood Hammer

Harvest is pretty bad imo. And trev gets Natural Cure meaning if it gets burned it can switch out to remove it. Hravest Lum Berry is pretty luck based. 50% chance is high but you can be extremly unlucky. And also not everyone is gonna keep Statusing you when you can already dish out high damage. Shadow Claw is for opposing Ghost types and psychich types like Sigilyph. (your not OHKO'd by a Life Orb Heat Wave) Hone Claws is bassically boosting your attack so you can dish out for even more damage. EQ is a wonderful move that can kill pokes like Drapion who would otherwise resist both of your moves. Items, life orb for more offensive power, or lefties for passive recovery. Anyways thats basically the only attacking boosting set up move it gets. You can also use Calm Mind but trev special attack is completely garbage btw. O and evs are max p so you can at least take some hits 76 seed outspeeds jellicent. rest in attack jut so your attacks are strong.

Anyway for its ranking probably it can start at C. Not really gonna say the reasons since everyone kind of said it already.

You might want to make sure you chuck in a few more EVs into Speed, since your current spread only speed ties standard Jellicent (which runs 44 Speed EVs and also reaches a Speed stat of 167) and leaves you vulnerable to Uncompetitive™ 50/50s and coinflips. Leftovers also sucks since Trevenant is piss-weak with this item: even after a boost, it still has to rely on hazards being up to do anything useful. Without hazards, your skill tree does not do a great deal. For example, 152 / 252 / 104 Adamant Dread Plate Drapion (yes, this is a legitimate set) can switch into a boosted Earthquake and OHKO Trevenant quite easily with Knock Off. In addition, boosted Shadow Claw doesn't even OHKO Fletchinder on the switch, which only needs a small amount of prior damage to swiftly OHKO with Acrobatics.

This is assuming Trevenant's even had an opportunity to boost: unboosted Leftovers Trevenant deals downright laughable damage. I honestly don't think offensive Trevenant sets are much cop, anyway. I feel like this set is outclassed by Swords Dance Virizion, which can actually hit Amoonguss and is stronger off an SD. A defensive set could be salvageable, since Trevenant can spinblock, but Mega Banette is a better spinblocker and I feel as if defensive Trevenant is sorely outclassed by Amoonguss, which has a less cruddy typing, better bulk and a better status-inducing move. As a result of all of these things I am of the opinion Trevenant should be D rank. It is simply outclassed and overshadowed by... literally every other Grass-type in RU.

 

[Cheryl.]

Can we move Golbat to C/C- rank? I find it utterly useless in the meta. It gets walled or beaten by pretty much any relevant Stealth Rock setter in the meta, is dependent on it's Eviolite so it doesn't like Knock Off from fighting types, the things it's supposed to wall. It also doesn't like the rising popularity of Sneasel and Mega Glailie,AND it's SR weak. What more can I say? Golbat is bad and it should be dropped.

 

[rau]

scrafty down to a+ or stay in s rank?

Seeing as a few offensive mons rose in viability, scrafty kinda seems to have some trouble setting up now, due to the risk of being taken down first. Yet, if the opportunity is given, Scrafty can decimate most offensive teams at +2. As of now I feel that S rank would fit well. Also props to OP for the rare Pepe.

 

[Kableye]

I've seen many people ask "What checks Scrafty?" and while it does have counters and several checks, teams lacking Aromatisse, Togetic, etc. generally have to be extra careful with Scrafty as most Pokemon Scarfer's don't OHKO and it just enough speed to out speed everything else except Jolteon. The typing Fighting/Dark gives it some helpful resistances/immunities to set up on Psychic types, several choiced Pokemon like Tyrantrum, walls and just about every dark type, especial with Shed Skin to help against Spiritomb with some luck. All three of its abilities are great imo. The Choice Band set also has its perks in supporting the team and checking many physical attackers. Colbur Berry Psychic types are getting pretty common which hinders it but these can be played around with hazard pressure as most don't have good recovery or the use of Roseli Berry (which I feel is one of its best items at the moment). Therefore I agree with Scrafty staying S rank as it's just a solid Pokemon and is pretty easy to support and gives plenty of utility.

 

[g]

I've seen many people ask "What checks Scrafty?" and while it does have counters and several checks, teams lacking Aromatisse, Togetic, etc. generally have to be extra careful with Scrafty as most Pokemon Scarfer's don't OHKO and it just enough speed to out speed everything else except Jolteon. The typing Fighting/Dark gives it some helpful resistances/immunities to set up on Psychic types, several choiced Pokemon like Tyrantrum, walls and just about every dark type, especial with Shed Skin to help against Spiritomb with some luck. All three of its abilities are great imo. The Choice Band set also has its perks in supporting the team and checking many physical attackers. Colbur Berry Psychic types are getting pretty common which hinders it but these can be played around with hazard pressure as most don't have good recovery or the use of Roseli Berry (which I feel is one of its best items at the moment). Therefore I agree with Scrafty staying S rank as it's just a solid Pokemon and is pretty easy to support and gives plenty of utility.

It is also to note that Scrafty's option in picking its ability make it extremely customizable regarding what can and cannot revenge kill it as well as what it can set up on. It can use really any combination of resist berries or Life orb + Shed Skin, Life Orb, Lum or whatever you want with Moxie and even use Intimidate to support its team more and set up more easily against Pokemon such as Rhyperior.

I also feel like Durant could get a bump to A+ Rank. Now that Cobalion is gone it has even more freedom in its moveset (even thought Superpower is sort of still needed for Mega Steelix) and can clean up offense incredibly easily with its Choice Scarf set using STAB moves. Life Orb / CB sets and even Lum Berry are extremely good as well and have an incredibly limited number of checks (Jellicent and Qwilfish crumble to Thunder Fang and the former to Crunch too, Steel-types can't really take Superpower since even Steelix practically goes down if Durant is at +1) especially in offensive teams for a Pokemon with that kind of Speed. It is also a very good Mega Glalie check which is clearly an amazing trait and doesn't lose 1v1 against Sneasel like most offensive Pokemon outside of Scrafty do lol.

I could also see Bronzong in A- to be honest. By running a more physically defensive set (affordable indeed at this stage) it can take on Pokemon such as Tyrantrum and Glalie as well as some Flygon variants (keeps up Stealth Rock for days against the defensive set lol) and many more like nothing thanks to the benefits a Steel-typing + Levitate grants. It can even be run on more offensive teams as a catch all answers since it sets up Stealth Rock and can hit fairly hard as well as being of help against most Choice Scarf users (and you can 1v1 Sneasel as long as you are at around 80% and luring it and killing it is absolutely golden for offense lol) and random hits in general. Goodstuff

 

[ss234]

Seconding Durant to A+ and Bronzong to A-. Scarf / band ant are very good rn since they provide offense a way of dealing with mglalie and the STABs are much more spammable with no cobalion and jelli becoming worse. Zonger also benefitted from the meta changes, seeing as it checks 3 / 4 s rank pkmn and provides stealth rock which is always handy.

I'd also like to suggest escavalier moving down to b+. I haven't seen it in ages and I'm not really sure what it does anymore. It gets trucked by tyrantrum, steelix and mola deal with it and in general it's just too slow and easy to wear down. It seems like a more niche option for defensive or balanced teams in need of a good check to melo, tangrowth and sneasel to an extent, so seems like more of a b rank pkmn. I think dugtrio could also move down to b+. Trapping band tyrantrum, delphox and houndoom is nice(and I guess virizion as well if you use aerial ace), but it seems a bit more niche now that you can't trap and pick off slightly weakened cobalion. It obviously still has a lot of value and can be amazing on the right team, but it's much less splash-able now without cobalion to trap so for me it's b+.

Also jw but why was aromatisse moved down? It seems as though cobalion leaving is good for it since it doesn't have to worry about that setting up on it. Aroma is still the most reliable scrafty answer in the tier as it has recovery unlike granbull and isn't sr weak / evio reliant like togetic. It still provides loads of support in wish and heal bell too, and outside of scrafty counters sneasel, virizion, hitmonlee and non-banded flygon(with good rolls you can deal with this even with sr up but its unreliable).

 

[phantom]

small updates:

Trevenant added to C
Bronzong up to A-
Escavalier down to B+

Durant isn't moving up to A+. I certainly wouldn't place it above Tangrowth and Sigilyph in viability nor would I say it's anywhere close to being on par with likes Sneasel and Mega Steelix. The Hone Claws set has difficulty setting up and maintaining the sweep after doing so; quite frankly, I think the set is pretty overrated. Choice Scarf and All-out Attacker are good though, but not particularly outstanding. It's really no better than the stuff it's ranked with to be frank. Its current placement is fine.

Aromatisse moved down because it's way too easy to overwhelm and exploit. I mean yeah I guess being able to barely tank EQs from CB Flygon sounds neat until you take into account that you have to burn two turns just to recover off the damage or risk Aromatisse being too weak to come in again. This is really the main flaw here. A Pokemon that gives that many free turns isn't solid A material at all. This wouldn't be an issue if Aromatisse could make up for it by having obscene bulk or the meta was a bit slower so that it could get a bit more leeway, but neither of those things are true, and most strong neutral hits will deal around 35-40%~ making it way too easy to pressure. Furthermore, of the Pokemon that it's designated to beat, many have ways of getting around it or even make the effort to bait it, such as Roseli Scrafty, Iron Tail Flygon, etc

Moving on, these are some changes I'd like to propose myself, but I want to get some discussion going:

-Togetic down to B+ or stay in A-
-Mega Camerupt up to A- or stay in B+
-Piloswine up to B or stay in B-

 

[Punchshroom]

Now I've had some experience with this mon. It's awful darn slow, but it's still pretty good. It has a pretty nice mix between sheer offensive power and usable bulk. Offensive MRupt variants that run Speed investment can easily lay the pressure on stuff like Aromatisse, Mega Steelix, Spiritomb, Rhyperior, Amoonguss, Togetic, etc. and a bunch of other slow stuff that don't expect to find themselves getting outsped and thus demolished by MRupt (particularly the case for the bulky Grounds). It's also arguably one of the factors of Aromatisse's drop in ranking, as it, like Mega Steelix, can just waltz in on Aroma and Roar it away before Aroma can access its Wish. Its typing is also nifty defensively, being one of the better Fire and Electric stops in the meta (notably hard walling Rotom-C and non-Aqua Tail Eelektross) and doesn't suffer against offensive Grass-types (namely Tangrowth and Virizion) like Mega Steelix does.

Then come MRupt's problems. Even with hefty Speed investment, the number of Pokemon MRupt can outspeed is rather limited (maximum Speed investment @ Modest barely puts you above 50 base Speed mons, which only need like an easily affordable 16 Speed EVs to put them out of range), while most wallbreakers / holepunchers can zip past the majority of walls in the tier without much difficulty (Clawitzer, Emboar, Exploud , even Rhyperior come to mind). While powerful, it can be responded to with popular and common threats, including Flygon, Alomomola, Jellicent, and specially defensive Seismitoad, the former three of which have reliable recovery and all can retaliate with super effective STAB, especially Scald which MRupt dreads. Offensive MRupt needs Hidden Power Ice and Toxic to deal with these threats respectively, which means it would have to forgo Stealth Rock and/or Roar, which can reduce the utility it offers. Defensive MRupt also actually suffers from being unable to inflict burns with Lava Plume which it would love to be able to do, and unlike Mega Steelix which can utilize a defensive spread without the need for recovery, Mega Camerupt is more inclined to run RestTalk since the threats it counters (Fire-types) have an easier time inching it into (3H)KO range. Oh, and MRupt is Dugtrio bait which isn't good. Keep it in B+ I say.

 

[Senpai D.M]

To A- This was nommed before and seems to finally be getting more recognition. :) I honestly agree with the rise, it has great bulk and great stabs also a decent movepool for any "checks" that want to switch in. (hp ice, hp etc. toxic) Its a very good wallbreaker, every switch in it gets it will do damage and slowly wear down teams. Oh and its slow? true, but it only needs to outspeed mons that normally switch in, only to get 2ohko'd. rof It fits perf in A- imo duggy might be a turn off, if anything I see dugtrio moving down? Other then Dugtrio what keeps Camel from rising to A-?

Also as I said above thoughts on Dugtrio?

 

[Cheryl.]

Definetely agree with Mega Camerupt moving up. It hits so hard and is actually pretty bulky as well, it can even run SR. Only problems are weaknesses to common types and being shit slow, but it deserves a move up. Also, could we maybe move Escavalier down to B? It's just so hard to fit onto teams and it's as slow as MegaRupt, but it's more of a niche option nowadays.

 

[Martin]

I know its not been out long and that it has just been placed today, but I'm just gonna nom Trevenant to E. Seriously, Trev is absolutely abysmal. While this is portrayed by its current C ranking, I made a number of teams that are designed to utilise Trevenant with a number of different sets, and every time I have found Trevenant struggling. The sets that I utilised are as follows:

• Choice Band (Wood Hammer/Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak, Horn Leech, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Choice Band, Natural Cure)
  
• Sitrus+PuP (Power-Up Punch, Wood Hammer, Shadow Sneak, Earthquake/Rock Slide/Substitute/Will-O-Wisp, Sitrus Berry, Harvest)
  
• Lum+PuP (Power-Up Punch, Horn Leech, Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak, Earthquake/Rock Slide/Will-O-Wisp, Lum Berry, Harvest)
  
• SubSeed (Substitute, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Phantom Force/Protect, Sitrus Berry, Harvest)
  
• LumRest (Rest, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Horn Leech, Lum Berry, Harvest)

Hone Claws has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but it has literally nothing on PuP for Trevenant considering that it only makes Rock Slide more accurate at the cost of not dealing even chip damage onto the opponent. Basically, it is completely outclassed by PuP.

I didn't test one team per set, but instead I tested two or three teams for each of those sets. Every time, I found that the team benefited significantly more from having another Pokémon. Here are my comments after testing each set:

Choice Band:
Completely outclassed by Choice Band Torterra. Suffers from the inability to switch moves, too slow/frail to make any real impact against the opponent, while it is weak to Flying and unable to outpace Fletchinder with Shadow Sneak. Shouldn't forgo Rock Slide else it will suffer heavily from said Pokémon switching in on it. Requires very heavy support, and is never worth using. Very mediocre.

Sitrus+PuP:
Completely outclassed by SD Virizion. Suffers a lot of the same problems as Choice Band. Able to avoid a small number of 2HKOs with Sitrus Berry, but requires a turn to match the damage output of Choice Band. Need for PuP further exasperates its already heavy case of 4MSS. Requires very heavy support, and is never worth using. Very mediocre.

Lum+PuP:
Completely outclassed by SD Virizion. Does everything the Sitrus+PuP set does worse. Reduced susceptibility to Will-O-Wisp is counteracted by inability to take hits. Requires very heavy support, and is never worth using. Very mediocre.

SubSeed:
Completely outclassed by Gourgeist-XL, Tank Torterra and Jellicent. Better than offensive sets, but not worth using under any circumstances. Lacking bulk gives it trouble, and reliance on unreliable recovery cause problems. Sits there and does nothing until its luck runs out, at which point it gets KOed. Poor supporter in all circumstances. Never worth using. Mediocre.

LumRest:
Completely outclassed by Gourgeist-XL and Jellicent. As a status absorber, outclassed by Gurdurr and even Hariyama and Swellow. Better than offensive sets, but not worth using under any circumstances. Lacking bulk gives it trouble, and reliance on unreliable recovery does problems. Sits there and does nothing until its luck runs out, at which point it gets KOed. Poor supporter in all circumstances. Never worth using. Mediocre.

Conclusion:
I can honestly find no scenario where I would rather use Trevenant over another Pokémon in any role. Trevenant is a really awful Pokémon and shouldn't be used under any circumstances. As such, it should be ranked in E IMO.

 

[Punchshroom]

To A- This was nommed before and seems to finally be getting more recognition. :) I honestly agree with the rise, it has great bulk and great stabs also a decent movepool for any "checks" that want to switch in. (hp ice, hp etc. toxic) Its a very good wallbreaker, every switch in it gets it will do damage and slowly wear down teams. Oh and its slow? true, but it only needs to outspeed mons that normally switch in, only to get 2ohko'd.?

Yeah wallbreaking isn't exactly limited to MRupt alone; several other Pokémon can also claim to 2HKO the majority of the tier, like Emboar, Clawitzer, Exploud, etc. Also consider that other Pokémon such as Rhyperior and Tangrowth that can also pull off the bulky wallbreaker route, and the list of unique niches MRupt offers dwindles a bit. The Speed is also low enough that MRupt won't outrun things without sacrificing substantial bulk (to a much greater degree than Tangrowth and Rhyperior) and won't get the chance to "2HKO its counters before they KO back" like you said it would.

Choice Band:
Completely outclassed by Choice Band Torterra. Suffers from the inability to switch moves, too slow/frail to make any real impact against the opponent, while it is weak to Flying and unable to outpace Fletchinder with Shadow Sneak. Shouldn't forgo Rock Slide else it will suffer heavily from said Pokémon switching in on it. Requires very heavy support, and is never worth using. Very mediocre.

Not to discredit your whole lengthy argument, but I feel that if you actually performed the extensive testing you claimed to have done, you'd have known that Trevenant does not actually get Shadow Sneak.

There's no denying that Trevenant's niches are very limited, but I still feel you're not giving Trevenant nearly enough credit. Atm, (I ASSUME) Trevenant's most notable niche is as a Choice Band wallbreaker with acceptable neutral coverage as well as Natural Cure to switch into status with greater ease than other wallbreakers, while having Trick to further harass bulky mons. While Torterra's Rock resistance and ability to switch into MLix are much more useful, Trevenant can still differentiate itself with its ability to check Virizion and its lack of fear of Scald.

 

[Martin]

Not to discredit your whole lengthy argument, but I feel that if you actually performed the extensive testing you claimed to have done, you'd have known that Trevenant does not actually get Shadow Sneak.

There's no denying that Trevenant's niches are very limited, but I still feel you're not giving Trevenant nearly enough credit. Atm, (I ASSUME) Trevenant's most notable niche is as a Choice Band wallbreaker with acceptable neutral coverage as well as Natural Cure to switch into status with greater ease than other wallbreakers, while having Trick to further harass bulky mons. While Torterra's Rock resistance and ability to switch into MLix are much more useful, Trevenant can still differentiate itself with its ability to check Virizion and its lack of fear of Scald.

I did test, but I didn't ever use the ghost coverage in the testing (the teams always preferred his other coverage moves). That was just off of the top of my head and I got it mixed up with Gourgeist there. My bad. I was just listing other options that could fit there though. However, I think that the lack of sneak is just another point against it tbh. Its atrocious, unboostable speed without priority combined with its iffy bulk are problematic, and while Trick sounds good on paper, it is rather poor in practice considering that it is so slow and frail, meaning a misprediction could very easily leave it with below half health and without a boosting item whick it can't easily regain. As for Natural Cure+Scald resistance+Virizion check in one, it has to be able to switch out and come back in for Natural Cure to be of use (not easy considering its "eh" bulk) and, worse still, if it EVs to outpace standard Jelly (80 speed), it has a >50% chance of being 2HKOed by a +2 Leaf Blade after rocks - making it an unreliable check (+2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 144-169 (40.5 - 47.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) - and this is assuming there is no prior damage (not easy considering that Wood Hammer is its best STAB for the set) or that it doesn't use Stone Edge on the switch, which deals significantly more.

 

[Umen Berker]

There is really nothing defensively that trevenant can do that gourgiest-xl cannot do far better. Much higher defensive bulk, reliable recovery (leech seed for team.support, and synthesis for straight half of your health assuming you don't hit a weather team) better support options (trick,wisp, Destiny bond, leech seed, and all the other ones trevenant packs, along with a much better trick room, and even disable if you want) all in all its just far better at the defensive job as a spinblocker

And offensively it's beaten by most every other attacking grass type in the tier as it's ghost stab isn't very useful as the most powerful options its got is shadow claw

 

[Mar1onette]

small updates:

Trevenant added to C
Bronzong up to A-
Escavalier down to B+

Durant isn't moving up to A+. I certainly wouldn't place it above Tangrowth and Sigilyph in viability nor would I say it's anywhere close to being on par with likes Sneasel and Mega Steelix. The Hone Claws set has difficulty setting up and maintaining the sweep after doing so; quite frankly, I think the set is pretty overrated. Choice Scarf and All-out Attacker are good though, but not particularly outstanding. It's really no better than the stuff it's ranked with to be frank. Its current placement is fine.

Aromatisse moved down because it's way too easy to overwhelm and exploit. I mean yeah I guess being able to barely tank EQs from CB Flygon sounds neat until you take into account that you have to burn two turns just to recover off the damage or risk Aromatisse being too weak to come in again. This is really the main flaw here. A Pokemon that gives that many free turns isn't solid A material at all. This wouldn't be an issue if Aromatisse could make up for it by having obscene bulk or the meta was a bit slower so that it could get a bit more leeway, but neither of those things are true, and most strong neutral hits will deal around 35-40%~ making it way too easy to pressure. Furthermore, of the Pokemon that it's designated to beat, many have ways of getting around it or even make the effort to bait it, such as Roseli Scrafty, Iron Tail Flygon, etc

Moving on, these are some changes I'd like to propose myself, but I want to get some discussion going:

-Togetic down to B+ or stay in A-
-Mega Camerupt up to A- or stay in B+
-Piloswine up to B or stay in B-

in my opinion i think mega camerupt should go up A- rank, . some reasoning i can see why it should move up is, mega cam can handle the majority of pokes that arn't resisted to its dual stab or have huge spd like meloetta and aromalike, and can also demolish most pokes that don't have above average spd, which is a lot of the meta, mega cam has a HUGE spa and with a boost of sheer force it will rek RU Pokes with a combination of its dual stabs and coverage moves. it's water checks like seismitoad and omastar arent even always safe switching in, thjey could switch into a hp grass or an earth power and receive significant damage. If Mega Cam can 1 hit and 2 hit KO the majority of the meta with some switch in's like jellicent and flygon, but granted to mega cam we're not forced to stay in, Reasoning why peeps want it to stay in B+. yes its a very good poke BUT its"walled" by pokes like jellicent and flygon. its a slow hard hard hitting tank which i think its slowness compromises it for easy revenge killing . with cobalion gone its lost one of its niche's to "check" it. we might not have as many water types in RU as UU but we still have water types like i said earlier, jellicent, clawitzer, sash smash omastar, and seismitoad (granted some mega cam's run HP grass) all of the above can force a switch bcuz of cam's X4 weakness and its slowness. so i could actually see it going either wait, Stay in B+ or move up to A- but i'm more biased towards it moving up to A- rank

 

[Lord Death Man]

Lum+PuP:
Completely outclassed by SD Virizion. Does everything the Sitrus+PuP set does worse. Reduced susceptibility to Will-O-Wisp is counteracted by inability to take hits. Requires very heavy support, and is never worth using. Very mediocre.

Power Up Punch + Horn Leech or Wood Hammer + EQ or Shadow Claw + *Rest* is a very decent set and it really doesn't have that many issues setting up all things considered. Of all the sets it has, this one really requires the least support and isn't outclassed by Virizion. And I hate trev.

Mega Camerupt should stay B+. It's not actually all that strong, we have stronger, faster wallbreakers, Jellicent walls all sets even if it's Phys Def and Spdef Mola also walls it pretty hard. It 2hkos Flygon with Fire Blast which is often overlooked, but it just doesn't do all that much to differentiate itself as a wallbreaker. We already have Exploud, Emboar, Clawitzer, all of whom are just as easy/difficult to use and probably better.

Megarupt's real niche lies in it's ability to set rocks on the many things it forces out, but that niche isn't always so helpful when the thing that comes in is Flygon and just removes those rocks. Sure it can catch Flygon with an HP Ice, but all of the wallbreakers in the tier can beat their switchins with the right coverage move except maybe Clawitzer.

It's typing is cool for not get OHKO'd but even with investment it has trouble dodging 2hkos by nearly everything and loses the ability to ohko anything that might come in.

 

[Martin]

Power Up Punch + Horn Leech or Wood Hammer + EQ or Shadow Claw + *Rest* is a very decent set and it really doesn't have that many issues setting up all things considered. Of all the sets it has, this one really requires the least support and isn't outclassed by Virizion. And I hate trev.

The problem with the logic of using Rest on it is that it means you have to sacrifice a moveslot for it and it is reliant on Harvest actually restoring your Lum Berry if you eat a Will-O-Wisp or have already used Rest in conjunction with it actually being able to take a hit before it needs to rest up again (as it only needs to be 3HKOed v.s. slower attackers that can hit it after Rest (not hard considering its bulk) or 2HKOed by faster attackers, which are usually powerful enough to do with their STABs so or carry super effective coverage for Trevenant anyway (e.g. Knock Off, Ice Beam).

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Could we please not suggest Trevenant to move down to E? Trevenant is by no means good but atleast it has a niche in this tier unlike the shit down in E rank, since it can function as a nice user of Choice Band thanks to its access to Natural Cure and Trick, and could we also try not to reply by saying "Mispredicts fuck you over" to Trick on trevenant, because I can think of so many other trick users that applies to. However, I am not entirely opposed to dropping Trevenant down to D because of how hard it is to fit on teams and its lack of a significant niche (It still has one, just not a significant one)

So with that: Trevenant C --> D

 

[atomicllamas]

Do people not like an offensive Virizion counter that doubles as the single best Scald switch-in in the tier? Idk why everyone is ragging on Trevenant when the Choice Band set is actually pretty neat and hits extremely hard, while providing good offensive support in the form of spin block (not a good blocker but your opp has to think twice about spinning, does block Hitmontop p well) and the aforementioned scald resist + natural cure. Sure, I'd rather use Tangrowth and Virizion as offensive Grass-types over Trev 80% of the time, and its by no means some amazing Pokemon, but its worthy of C rank at the very least (for the CB set).

 

[tehy]

Personally, I haven't tried trevenant because it doesn't fit well on stall. But if i were to use it on offense, it'd be this set:

Trevenant @ Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Will-O-Wisp
- Wood Hammer
- Shadow Claw (Phantom Force possibly)

so yeah, this is great against virizion (thanks ninja llamas), and in general has WoW as a nice disruptive move. Nothing really switches in comfortably apart from those bulky regenerator grasses, and it's got very reliable recovery, as well as taking on Alomomola and Jellicent very nicely, which is cool since those two can really piss off offensive teams. Also a very nice stop to Seismitoad if you're into that, a great switch-in into Mega Lix, a way to spinblock (it can't really 1v1 lee, but at least you can play mindgames at critical junctures). It's hard-pressed to carve out a niche between Viri, Growth, and even Rose/gourg-S, but this set really has a shot

 

[Mar1onette]

Personally, I haven't tried trevenant because it doesn't fit well on stall. But if i were to use it on offense, it'd be this set:

Trevenant @ Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Will-O-Wisp
- Wood Hammer
- Shadow Claw (Phantom Force possibly)

so yeah, this is great against virizion (thanks ninja llamas), and in general has WoW as a nice disruptive move. Nothing really switches in comfortably apart from those bulky regenerator grasses, and it's got very reliable recovery, as well as taking on Alomomola and Jellicent very nicely, which is cool since those two can really piss off offensive teams. Also a very nice stop to Seismitoad if you're into that, a great switch-in into Mega Lix, a way to spinblock (it can't really 1v1 lee, but at least you can play mindgames at critical junctures). It's hard-pressed to carve out a niche between Viri, Growth, and even Rose/gourg-S, but this set really has a shot

the set right now that seems to be the most "viable" and used set is the starf berry set. iv'e seen a variety of sets run with that item but i usually run Sub, wood hammer/horn leech, phantom force, and EQ

IMO i think skuntank should drop to C rank. skuntank does have a niche in RU, defog but outside of that what does it do better than a a dark type like spiritomb or drapion who gets hazards, has the same type, and has access to the most famous knock off. yes i c the mix set that carries fire blast for mega steelix which i suppose isnt a "bad" set buti dont see the impact it provides that other dark types cant do better outside of defog and fire blast. i also think golbat shoult should drop down to C rank bcuz its walled by so much in this meta, it cant defog on any of the rock setters, once eviolite is gone its dead weight and carries no offensive presence in the tier, and with sneasel getting more popular it has another poke to check it even more often. golbat doesn't have a gud presence in RU as a wall or an offensive poke. sure yes it does defog hazards in general and can roost with super fang, but is dominated by so much in the tier right now and especially the top threats like tyrantrum, glaile, CB/mix flygon (who also defogs), meloetta, and more.

 

[MrAldo]

I would like that piloswine moves up to B. It had great value with noivern in here and still has given that sneasel and mega glalie are really dominant and piloswine can handle both of them really well which is absolutely impressive, thanks to thick fat it can check many fire types at least once as well.