Discussion Revisiting ADV UU

[BigFatMantis]

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Now that UUSD is over I just wanted to give some quick thoughts on this new slate of Arcanine/Ninjask/Swellow.

First, Ninjask is an obvious unban and I would be shocked if even one person thinks otherwise, so there isn't much to be discussed there. It's not totally useless either - it can actually be quite fun on the right team. See this replay of it almost sweeping but alas it's just too weak to KO a 55% Kanga: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-640277 .

Regarding Arcanine and Swellow, I am undecided in how to vote, but it's not because I'm unsure of the mons impact. It's because I'm unsure in the direction everyone wants to go. To me, there's two potential goals here that are separate and contrasting to one another, and whether or not we free either of these depends on which goal we are actually pursuing (or pursuiting).

GOAL OPTION 1: ADD VARIETY WITHOUT CHANGING THE TIER



This seemed to be the most popular endgame for most of the ADV UU mainers, while deplored as stupid by many Freezai subscribers. If this is the goal you are looking for then you absolutely under no circumstances can free Arcanine or Swellow. While I don't think either are "broken" by any means (no Swellow is not broken, it's just annoying if you're not prepping for it), they both invalidate many consistent ADV UU archetypes and require you to pack considerable counterplay to both.


Arcanine would even, in my opinion, be considered S+ Rank alongside Kang. It has the ability to KO an entire squad with the right set, and can even overwhelm Kang and waters like Tentacruel with Sunny Day + HP Electric, and can also pack things like Crunch for Psychics, and has ESPeed AND Intimidate to boot. A classic ADV UU team of Kang/Ampharos/Omastar/Scyther/Tentacruel core just gets completely wiped by Sunny Day Arc with HP Grass or HP Elec. And in actuality, that 5 mon core gets absurdly scary with adding Arcanine as a 6th! It's splashable on all archetypes as much as Kang is, and if the goal of this project is truly, honestly, not to change the tier too much, then you just can't add this thing to the tier.


Swellow is also a bit warping to the tier, though I think people make it out to be more problematic than it really is. In reality it's just a faster Fearow, in almost every sense. That is all it is, but that Speed is very dangerous. However, the defensive counterplay is identical to that of Fearow. Just carry a rock-type, and if you're really concerned then carry a backup half-check like a ghost-type or a bulky Ampharos or Walrein. But requiring you to pack two checks for one mon is obviously not ideal. And the offensive counterplay is extremely limited since it's faster than basically everything except Electrode. That in itself is a bit game changing and restricts your teambuilding in a tier that is already super stressed for filling out your slots with necessities. Basically, Swellow also changes the tier too much, and if the goal is to not really be warping the tier, then you can't free Swellow either.

I truly think that by freeing NFEs and dropping Ninjask, we will have achieved the level variety that many of us were seeking, and we probably don't need to really do anything else. The NFE meta with Haunter is quite fun, and Haunter alone helps restrict the monopoly that Wish Kanga had on the tier. It doesn't need a dog or bird to further commit to this endgoal. And Ninjask is quite fun in certain quirky builds, and even Metang/Pikachu can have their moments. After playing the non-drops meta throughout ADV UU Cup, and also playing the drops meta in UUSD, I can honestly say that the non-drops NFE meta in ADV UU Cup was more enjoyable to build and play in. There's a lot of silly things I was able to try that I wouldn't be able to do in a meta with Arcanine or Swellow due to how badly both of those restrict the builder. So, if our goal here is to add variety but not change the overall complexion of the tier, we have already done it. We don't need to go any further, and Ninjask has a minimal impact that adding it in is just a bonus with little harm.

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GOAL OPTION 2: FIX THE ADV UU TIERING



This is a totally separate goal, and if this is where we want to go, I am all on-board. ADV UU was the worst-tiered metagame in the history of Smogon that has continued to survive today because we have never wanted to fix it. It's pretty obvious that the ADV UU we currently play is a fake creation born of people's well-intended but poorly practiced tiering philosophy from like 2006. So, I do think that some people would like to see this rectified. But the speed at which we do has to be slow and steady if we are going to do it right (we can't just free everything and fix as we go with no active gen3uu ladder).

In testing Armaldo during UUFPL, and then Arcanine/Swellow/Ninjask during UUSD, it seems this could be a valid direction we want to take moving forward. In fact, Roseybear made a whole roadmap/mons list of UUBLs with checks/weaknesses/perks/viability that could potentially be used for a total re-work as we keep going. If this is indeed the goal of this excercise, then the question of whether or not something should be freed has to be looked at very differently. As long as it is not clearly "broken", and sufficient counterplay exists, then we should unban it and move to the next slate.

Here, neither Arcanine nor Swellow are clearlly broken. Arcanine is very good, S+ Rank even for the reasons listed above. But it doesn't break the tier, it just re-images it and requires you to build differently for it. Kang alone is not going to check it, so you need to pack more Walrein or Tentacruel and just scout out what it's Hidden Power is, then you can maneuver more easily around it. Swellow is similar, though not as good. It's very one-dimensional, and as such you can easily find counterplay on your teams when you build. The problem I saw in UUSD was people slapping a non-Def invested Normal resist on their team and thinking that was enough to check it. Well, it's not enough to check Fearow, so how would that be enough to check Swellow? The answer is because Fearow doesn't really exist so people aren't concerned with packing dedicated defensive checks for it. Swellow does - and will - exist, so you have to take it into account and build accordingly. Bulky spread options on other mons like Walrein can also help ensure it doesn't get out of hand. So, neither Arcanine nor Swellow are broken, and if the goal of this excercise is to fix ADV UU tiering, then we should be freeing both Arcanine and Swellow and move on to the next slate, which, in my opinion, should include Jumpluff, Arena Trap, and one other mon with a 105 Speed tier just to see if that would fly in the tier.

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TLDR Conclusion:
Unban Arcanine + Swellow + Ninjask if we are dedicated to re-tiering ADV UU, then move on to the next slate.
Unban Ninjask but keep banned Arcanine + Swellow if we are simply looking for variety without changing the tier too much.

I haven't decided how I am voting yet, but it will be either Unban Ninjask + Keep UUBL Arcanine+Swellow, or Uban Ninjask+Arcanine+Swellow. Those are the only two combinations that I think would make sense if we are being honest about our goals here. But I'd like to hear what everyone else wants to do generally speaking before I pick one of those, and I think it's important to really flesh out what we are trying to do here.

If either Arcanine or Swellow gets unbanned (just one or both), then I am going to assume we are pursuing a total re-tiering and will heavily push for a new slate with Jumpluff and other stuff ASAP to keep it moving.

 

[Heysup]

I'm going to ignore Ninjask for now because I think the consensus is that it may have a niche but it is fairly underwhelming in comparison to Arcanine and Swellow (and even existing threats like Gligar/Scyther) and can't seriously be considered to be kept banned.

Overall, the Swellow and Arcanine metagame of UUSD was lots of fun and I think it goes without saying that they added a lot of variety to an otherwise stagnant metagame (which I did not hate but I definitely like this better).

Arcanine, is likely the less controversial choice to remain unbanned. I think Arcanine is balanced and should remain in the tier. It's definitely a top tier mon, I actually think it's really at like Amph/Tenta status of being a great splashable mon with some offensive and defensive presence. That being said, I think the biggest reason that Arcanine is balanced is because it's really relies on a move that has 8 PP and a chance to miss paired with the fact that it's not quite strong enough to power through Kanga, Tenta, Walrein, Slowking, Blastoise which are all common enough in metagame without Arcanine to say that there's no real centralization going on. I think especially as the metagame has more time to adapt we are going to see more usage of things like Lanturn, Altaria (already frequently used on defensive teams as a beller/phazer/scyther and gligar check), and Cradily (reliable recovery makes it one of the best checks). On a less important note, it gives hyper offense more of a fighting chance against those bulky teams that plagued the meta with the same 6 spammed over and over and I think re-invigorated that playstyle.

Swellow is probably more controversial, but I still think it is balanced. Compared to other normal-types, while faster, it is weak, frail and lacks coverage. Omastar was in my view already approaching the mandatory levels of Kanga and Scyther in the "old" meta (admittedly Scyther's VR drops slightly in the Swellow/Ark meta). Cradily, Golem, and Solrock have seen a major resurgence over the last few years, though admittedly it went to new levels after Arcanine and Swellow were introduced. Swellow has major 4MSS as it can't hit all of the rocks/fightings and still use Double Edge/QA/Ace. Not having HP Flying is also a bit detrimental against bulky ghosts (like the gaining-popularity Sableye and bulky Missy). Even a correctly predicted HP Fight only like 4hkoes. I think the real reason people have had trouble (which I think is actually no longer the case) is because of the synergy with other mons, namely Kanga, Arcanine and Scyther because they all wear out the same Pokemon. However, because of its limited move pool and relatively low power, I think it's a very exploitable Pokemon (more than the others just listed) and I think you could very easily tell how people learned quickly to do so in the UUSD games where you started seeing some Kanga checks + offensive rock-types to set up on a normal/flying move locked in Swellow. I'm not here to say it's a bad Pokemon because I certainly spammed it in UUSD but I think personally it is a great a addition to keep the bulky offensive teams at bay - it is really just an amazing revenge killer (though exploitable) which was severely lacking.

While it may not be spoken about too much on the slate right now, I think Linoone is a Pokemon that should be banned or at least voted on as part of this slate. We've been discussing it unofficially for like 12 years and no one has pulled the trigger because we weren't really looking to touch the tier. Now we are and the discussion has resurfaced many times in the adv UU discord. In the Swellow/Arcanine metgame it started to run Salac berry more commonly due to Arcanine (unless you're goated and run Jolly) and Swellow having strong priority and outspeeding it without Salac. It's really a guessing game (ie. attack it (if its lum) or status it) (if salac or lefties) when you see Linoone come in vs either a paralyzed mon or any mon without the ability to otherwise OHKO Linoone (memento or screens will be up most of the time when it's pressing BD). I ran safeguard with my salac berry Nooner so that I had less risk of someone guessing correctly and I think that was a helpful move that pushes Linoone to a more unstoppable level. Your counter play is either to run 6 mons with strong (or fast) Booms, Brick Break, etc. or always keep your check (ie. Golem, Cradily, Omastar, bulky Blastoise, etc.) at full hp and spikes off the field (most of these mons are OHKOed by HP Fighting or Espeed with Spikes on the field or any chip damage). This is very hard because of the existence of other hard-hitting attackers, many good spikers and many serviceable ghosts to block spin. The reason I find Linoone broken is because the counter play is limited and even if you have counter play you may get boned by a random lum berry, salac berry or leftovers. While I don't consider this a major criterion for banning something, it is also a huge pain in the ass in the builder and makes for really annoying MU fishing in tour games specifically. While I do not necessarily agree with the banning of BP philosophically, if in-builder annoyance and MU fishing was enough to ban BP I think it should also apply to Linoone.

If either Arcanine or Swellow gets unbanned (just one or both), then I am going to assume we are pursuing a total re-tiering and will heavily push for a new slate with Jumpluff and other stuff ASAP to keep it moving.

I have a slightly different opinion but I think you're on the right track here. In my view, if we leave any of Arcanine or Swellow banned, we should stop future testing and lock the tier. We have chosen the three "weakest" Pokemon from UUBL to test. It logically does not make sense to test any more "stronger" UUBL Pokemon if any of the three "weakest" are deemed too strong for this tier. As for the process of who decides this I have no idea, maybe Shiba does.

 

[esche]

I truly think that by freeing NFEs and dropping Ninjask, we will have achieved the level variety that many of us were seeking, and we probably don't need to really do anything else. The NFE meta with Haunter is quite fun, and Haunter alone helps restrict the monopoly that Wish Kanga had on the tier. It doesn't need a dog or bird to further commit to this endgoal.

I too enjoy NFE meta and don't really see a reason for Arcanine specifically to drop. My main concern comes from the observation that Arcanine alone warps the tier in a way that makes the tier nearly unrecognizable and I for one find it a perfectly valid concern to not uproot the nature of ADV UU too much. The wallbreaking set with Sunny Day in particular is ridiculouly potent and flips the dynamic of special wallbreakers previously resulting in one-for-one trades on its head. Arcanine introduces an element of unmatched levels of power, speed, and bulk topped off by solid utility condensed into one to the tier that isn't bound by match-up. From my point of view, it simply doesn't have enough drawbacks.

I'm actually not entirely against freeing Swellow because it only does a few things better that already exist in ADV UU in slighty weaker form, but at the same time I acknowledge that its speed tier can make dealing with it awkward offensively. However, I have an inkling Arcanine's presence in UUSD meta kind of exacerbated Swellow's impact because the former excelled at breaking down its checks and forced teams into adopting structures geared towards Arcanine specifically, which in turn made it easier for Swellow to pick up significant KOs. Contrary to prophesied CB + Guts terror that Swellow was made out to be, we actually didn't see a whole lot of Facade usage over the course of UUSD. Instead, Double-Edge and a Hidden Power of choice quickly established itself as the standard set, probably because the meta was overall much more fast paced with far less Toxic spam than ADV UU is notorious for. I would be interested to see how Swellow holds up in NFE meta individually without Arcanine present, where I predict there is more ample room for answering it defensively.

I have no opinion on Ninjask as I believe it to be largely irrelevant with BP banned and Scyther outclassing it.

Overall, I'm sympathetic to the cause of fixing tiering mishaps of the past - it could be a fun project given satisfactory participation - but, in all honesty, I'm neither optimistic about it being a success nor am I convinced of there being a need for such drastic changes right now. While I appreciate efforts that go into which UUBLs should be tested and which are "too much" such as Rosey's roadmap, at the end of the day such plans always remain somewhat arbitrary theorycrafting. The new ADV UU is going to be a difficult environment to control both in terms of the sheer amount of UUBLs that are slated to be freed and the order in which they should be introduced. We're already disagreeing on whether only the initial couple of suspects are appropriate additions to the tier - how do we proceed when it comes to arguably even more controversial candidates? While NFE meta has only been around for a little over two months, I have only heard positive things of it so far and I too can report that it's been a breath of fresh air. As BFM mentioned, the introduction of Haunter is actually a huge deal and we're already seeing its impact in the most recent ADV UU Cup which has had NFEs freed. One of the main motivations behind reshaping ADV UU was that it was perceived as stale and, from what I can gather, NFEs fixed that while preserving the essence of the tier.

Lastly, while I don't believe NFE meta would necessarily benefit from any of the drops in question, I agree with Heysup that something we should address for the benefit for the tier is Linoone. It simply runs Salac now to circumvent Haunter being an Extreme Speed immunity. Frankly, a suspect test is long overdue at this point.

 

[Heysup]

I too enjoy NFE meta and don't really see a reason for Arcanine specifically to drop. My main concern comes from the observation that Arcanine alone warps the tier in a way that makes the tier nearly unrecognizable and I for one find it a perfectly valid concern to not uproot the nature of ADV UU too much. The wallbreaking set with Sunny Day in particular is ridiculouly potent and flips the dynamic of special wallbreakers previously resulting in one-for-one trades on its head. Arcanine introduces an element of unmatched levels of power, speed, and bulk topped off by solid utility condensed into one to the tier that isn't bound by match-up. From my point of view, it simply doesn't have enough drawbacks.

In my experience and in speaking to others (as many UUSD participants/testers, etc. as I could find), it is clear that this, particularly the bolded sentence, is an exaggeration. I think in order to make a claim like that you should have at least posted some numbers to back it up (though in doing so you may retract the statement). In terms of power Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO bulky kang, Cradily, Hypno, Amph or any of the typical special walls that are not named Vileplume. It also only has 8 pp so unless you're amazing at prediction and hit every Fire Blast, against at least 3 of those you're going to be down to 4-5 Fire Blasts after protect. Sunny Day is nice but requires significant set up and gives you a shot at being neutralized by Twave/Toxic. While Arcanine has respectable bulk its defensive typing is shit especially in a tier where Earthquakes are thrown around everywhere and waters are already a mainstay of the meta. Tentacruel, even off of its shitty base 80 SpA OHKOes Arcanine very easily. It's got intimidate and flash fire (helps vs other Arcanines only really) which help but you can't overlook the weakness to Water, Rock and Ground. For speed, I'm having a hard time understanding where that comment came from, you're basically forced to run +SpA and even if not you're slower than the majority of the fast mons who are base 100+. If you're saying few mons have the package Arcanine has I agree which is what makes it strong but it's got no more utility bulk power and speed than things like Tentacruel Kanga and Scyther.

Don't get me wrong, Arcanine is a great mon, and in my opinion it's one of the best (most would say top 5 or 10, I would probably say top 3 (?) personally). You are right that there are limited drawbacks to using it, because I used it almost every week. But that's mostly because I didn't want to be pigeonholed into using another priority user. Sure it is an overall good mon but it checks Scyther and Vileplume while preventing MU fishing by Pinch Berry spam teams.

Overall, I'm sympathetic to the cause of fixing tiering mishaps of the past - it could be a fun project given satisfactory participation - but, in all honesty, I'm neither optimistic about it being a success nor am I convinced of there being a need for such drastic changes right now. While I appreciate efforts that go into which UUBLs should be tested and which are "too much" such as Rosey's roadmap, at the end of the day such plans always remain somewhat arbitrary theorycrafting. The new ADV UU is going to be a difficult environment to control both in terms of the sheer amount of UUBLs that are slated to be freed and the order in which they should be introduced. We're already disagreeing on whether only the initial couple of suspects are appropriate additions to the tier - how do we proceed when it comes to arguably even more controversial candidates? While NFE meta has only been around for a little over two months, I have only heard positive things of it so far and I too can report that it's been a breath of fresh air. As BFM mentioned, the introduction of Haunter is actually a huge deal and we're already seeing its impact in the most recent ADV UU Cup which has had NFEs freed. One of the main motivations behind reshaping ADV UU was that it was perceived as stale and, from what I can gather, NFEs fixed that while preserving the essence of the tier.

I find it very difficult to believe or understand that we went through the test of Arc/Swellow/Ninjask just to see if we "like" any of their impacts or if they "compromise the identity of the tier" (I am still not sure if anyone knows what that means at this point). I've said it before but if you go onto smogon.com it specifies that we are a competitive Pokemon battling website not a "we use what we like in Pokemon battles" website. It should go without saying that we're looking for some objective criteria based around competitiveness. The fundamental question is do any of these Pokemon detract from the competitiveness? This can be by being too strong or by causing MU Fishing or whatever reasoning is commonly accepted these days.

My understanding of what we revisited ADV UU was because it made no sense in the first place. We are compromising by maintaining the identity (ie. using it as a base) and building upwards. I was actually in favour of nuking the tier altogether but was overruled so this is the process now.

That being said, it's pretty clear that we need some direction from whoever is driving the bus (Shiba is it you?) on this process. Logically, to me, we would stop the process as soon as one of the suspect tested Pokemon are deemed broken. In other words, if Arcanine and Ninjask are unbanned and Swellow is not, then I think we should be done. As I mentioned in discord, this answers two questions at once: 1) when do we stop? and 2) what if we ban Swellow then free (for example) Armaldo and it would no longer have been broken?

 

[BigFatMantis]

My understanding of what we revisited ADV UU was because it made no sense in the first place. We are compromising by maintaining the identity (ie. using it as a base) and building upwards. I was actually in favour of nuking the tier altogether but was overruled so this is the process now.

...

Logically, to me, we would stop the process as soon as one of the suspect tested Pokemon are deemed broken. In other words, if Arcanine and Ninjask are unbanned and Swellow is not, then I think we should be done. As I mentioned in discord, this answers two questions at once: 1) when do we stop? and 2) what if we ban Swellow then free (for example) Armaldo and it would no longer have been broken?

This is true that ADV UU tiering made no sense and was based on arbitrary decisions. But if we free either Arcanine or Swellow (just one or both), and then stop, that in itself is making another arbitrary decision because there are still other UUBLs that are, or have potential to be, less impactful than Arcanine, Swellow, and Armaldo (Jumpluff, for one, and I'm sure if we got down to it there's others to be discussed later). So we would be just as bad as the people who tiered ADV UU in the first place if we went through this whole suspect process, freed 2/3 mons, and then stopped when others are also potentially droppable. We obviously can't test EVERYTHING, but there's definitely still stuff left after doing that.

That being said I actually would prefer to stop right now and preserve the current NFE meta. Ninjask being banned was a product of Baton Pass so it makes sense to unban it regardless of anything else. But if either Arcanine or Swellow get unbanned, then we have to keep it going if we are going to be honest about this process and not cherry pick test mons. Anything that has potential to be droppable should get tested at that point if we are really looking to revisit ADV UU in its entirety, not revisit it for two months and then get tired of it.

As a side note, I think we should nuke the tier and re-tier from scratch at some point in the future, and create an ADV RU, but that is such a big project and definitely not something that enough people would be on board with at the moment to see it happen. So keeping the current NFE meta and dropping Ninjask until that happens wouldn't be so bad of a thing.

 

[eden]

i actually think we should free everything this tiers so boring

think we need armaldo and donphan and swellow and crobat and possibly some more stuff dropped down

nothings broken, free bp too so the broken stuff is kept in check

 

[Shiba]

Thank you the above posters for their input and posters in the discord as well. We will be following through with the 2nd slate: Arcanine, Ninjask, and Swellow. We discussed more in the discord but any future tests will be worked out after this one. It's the general consensus that the playerbase wants a Linoone to occur was well as possibly a Jumpluff test, in which case would happen after this slate in a future tournament. We couldn't justify adding Linoone to the current slate based on the mon not being an initial focus as well as it only being used twice over 9 weeks in UUSD.

Voting reqs are the same as last vote as well as anyone who played >50% of regular season games in UUSD III with at least 1 win and anyone who made semifinals of the most recent ADV cup. This only adds esche and Amukamara surprisingly.

Voter List

A Hero's Destiny
Abyssal Ruins
Accel
Amukamara
Ark
BigFatMantis
Bouff
Cam
Christo
crayon pop
crying
eden
esche
Expulso
fatty
Garay oak
gorex
Heysup
Hogg
Hyogafodex
innovamania
JabbaTheGriffin
kael
LpZ
Luna's Banned now
Melle2402
Micciu
Mr.378
Parpar
Plas
pokemonisfun
Quartosa
r0ady
Raichy
RampageWebber
Roseybear
Shiba
TSR
The Strap

The vote will happen within the next couple days if anyone has anything else to say. Tagging Lily for the vote.

 

[Noitu]

Hello, all! It has been quite awhile since I have interacted with fellow ADV UU enthusiasts. Since Arcanine's addition to ADV UU, I have had the pleasure of playing with/against it on the ladder and friendlies. Heysup and BFM were absolutely correct in that Arcanine will be a top ADV UU Pokemon. Based on my experience, I hope to share some concerns about Arcanine's placement in ADV UU. Please take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I have been away from the main stage of ADV UU for a long time.

My concern with Arcanine is how difficult this Pokemon becomes to check with minimal team support. The most common set I have seen is: [Fire Blast, Hidden Power Grass, ExtremeSpeed, and Crunch/Toxic]. This set easily switches into common grass and bug moves, as well as weak physical hits thanks to intimidate. Thereafter, Arcanine can fire off powerful Fire Blast and HP Grass that can 1-2HKO majority of the tier. The issue with Arcanine is not due to the lack of defensive options. There are several switch-ins to Arcanine, including water types (Walrein, Blastoise, Tentacruel, Lanturn, Slowking, Feraligatr, Mantine), Cradily, Camerupt, Altaria, and Hypno. The main issue I see is that it is nearly impossible to check Arcanine offensively. Due to Arcanine's great bulk, Walrein, Tentacruel, and Camerupt are the only defensive options that typically can 1HKO Arcanine. Other potential revengers of Arcanine are Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Golduck, and Sharpedo. However, most of these are slower and will be in KO range with minimal damage. Only Tentacruel reliably outspeeds Arcanine, but it will be in range of ExtremeSpeed after couple switch-ins. This is what separates Arcanine from Magmar, which also possesses a great movepool, high special attack, and wall-breaking potential. Unlike Arcanine, Magmar can easily be checked offensively by many faster threats.

The inability to effectively revenge KO Arcanine leaves us only with defensive strategies. While there are several defensive checks to Arcanine, they are all checked by a single Pokemon: Kangaskhan. No defensive options listed above can effectively pressure Kangaskhan, which then proceeds fire off powerful attacks, rest off damage, spread status, and/or wish to heal teammates. Meanwhile, the defensive options are continuously chipped away and forced to heal, while being unable to make any progress against Arcanine + Kangaskhan core. I wonder if I can appropriately compare Arcanine + Kangaskhan in ADV UU with Salamence + Latias in DPP OU scenario. Either is manageable alone, but the two togother seem near impossible to stop. Whether this is a positive or negative addition to the metagame, I will have to rely on the community to decide together.

These are my thoughts on Arcanine in what will likely to be a former ADV UU metagame. Teams are made worse by not having Arcanine (and Kangaskhan) within, and we may now have a centralized metagame where all teams share 2 same Pokemon. If the 'stale' defensive playstyle of ADV UU is the reasoning behind recent efforts for reconstruction, Arcanine is indeed a fantastic choice. Arcanine alone can nullify the common defensive cores (Kangaskhan, Omastar, Tentacruel) that makes a typical ADV UU games long. I must wonder, however, if we will need to unban more UUBL Pokemon to better handle Arcanine + Kangaskhan core. This thread already appears to be pointing at more unban to create a new ADV UU metagame. While a farewell with a metagame that I have for so long enjoyed would be bittersweet, I am also exciting to see its potential reconstruction. Thank you for reading, I look forward to what new ADV UU metagame will unfold in the upcoming ADVPL!

 

[BigFatMantis]

With a large string of ADV UU Tours recently being completed, including various with tests, I wanted to make a post to address the current state of ADV UU and where we can take it from here, as well as propose a direction on how to handle this whole process. First, let me give a brief timeline on what has transpired in recent tours:

• Post-UUSD 2022: Arcanine + Ninjask freed
• ALT PL I: Jumpluff + Arena Trap tested
• UUFPL III: Kadabra + Lapras unofficially tested (very very unofficially)

• UUPL 2023: No tests, just the standard Arcanine meta, but Linoone officially put "under a lens" for a future vote.
• ADV PL III: No tests, just the standard Arcanine meta

As a participant and/or host in all these tours, here are my thoughts on the meta and direction:

1. We should a vote on a Slate 3 immediately on:

• Jumpluff
• Arena Trap
• Linoone

For Jumpluff/Arena Trap - ALT PL showed very clearly that Jumpluff was not broken, not intrusive, and otherwise very minimally impactful on the meta while having a minor niche that can be used at times. While it's not going to blast off the meta into the promised land, there's no reason to keep it in UUBL when it fits fine in this meta. Arena Trap was also very bad in ALT PL, as it only got used once and did nothing. Additionally, we previously banned Arena Trap without a test, so now that it has been re-tested we should finalize the issue once and for all and close the book on it. It's not broken clearly, but if it is not desirable then we can conclude this question with this final vote. Above all else, it's incredibly clear to me that Jumpluff and Arena Trap are nowhere near as impactful to the meta as Arcanine is, and since that's the best thing that's been freed so far, I think that should be sort of the standard for this type of thing.

Speaking of finalizing issues once and for all, Linoone haters have been calling for a vote for 10000000 years and we finally put it under a lens in UUPL 2023 so that an official vote can take place. It would make complete sense to include it on this slate and get this issue resolved so that we can officially end the Linoone debate and see where we stand.

Some ALT PL Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-672609 Leech Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-672976 SD Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-674177 Arena Trap's only game (not much happened)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-676491 SD + Encore Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-676905 The only game Jumpluff carried to victory


-------------

2. The Arcanine Question

Since Arcanine has been freed, we've had several Arcanine tours to see how it's been doing. And, well, it's doing quite well! But is it doing too well? Some people have been calling for a second look into Arcanine saying it warps the tier a bit too much around it with its unmatched BST and lack of reliable defensive counterplay. I'm not sure if we really need to re-examine it, but I do think we should figure out the direction we want to go with it by answering these two questions:
1) Are we ok with Arcanine in the meta? If yes, then:
2) Are there other things that are as impactful or less impactful than Arcanine that can be freed then?
And additionally:
3) Are we willing to try things that may be more impactful than Arcanine?

The future of what we do with this tier really depends on how we answer these questions, and I think that on the upcoming Slate 3 we should allow space for voters to answer that just to get an idea on what people think. Totally non-binding, it's just there to gather information so that we can move forward in the best possible way. I suppose we could also just DM qualified voters for their thoughts on that issue as well. Either way, I think this is the most important series of questions moving forward. Which brings us to...

---------------

3. Lapras & Kadabra

This test in UUFPL was super duper unofficial and non-binding on anything and mostly for entertainment but also somewhat for gathering information, similar to the Armaldo test last year (which helped us realize that we should not entertain freeing Armaldo, avoiding a useless official test in an official UU tour). My thoughts on it are as follows:

a) I think Lapras is totally fine in the meta, and additionally I think it deserves an official test in an official UU tour format. It offers an additional offensive check to Arcanine, another water that can be bulky or offensive, Heal Bell support for more role compression options, and was never seen to be oppressive or overbearing in any UUFPL games that I watched (and there were quite a bit). Arcanine is still way more dominant in the meta than Lapras would ever be in its current state. However, this is all dependent on where we stand with the Arcanine question - meaning that, if the community believes we need to revisit Arcanine and consider sending it back to UUBL, then we may want to stop entertaining more changes after Slate 3. But, if we deem Arcanine to be fine, then I think we need to take a closer look at Lapras and test it officially very soon, as the more viable mons in the meta, the better variety the meta will have, and the more interesting, generally, it can be. Above all else it's not broken at all and shouldn't be trapped in UUBL without at least an official test.

b) I really really do think that the metagame is able to handle Kadabra. But I think it would have to change a bit, and I think a lot of people don't want to make that change in what they use or how they use to that big of an extent. I don't really think Kadabra is broken and I think there exists counterplay to sufficiently deal with it. But I do agree it would make the metagame look very different. More Sableyes, Metangs, Hypnos, Grumpigs, etc. (something people probably don't want to see). Bottom line is that Kadabra is frail af and dies to a gust of wind, but if you play it right with the right defensive pivots it can force infinite progress by just spamming Psychic if you ignore its existence in the builder. But, I think Lapras is a more appropriate mon to test and I don't think we should officially test two mons at the same time again. And additionally, this still goes back to the Arcanine question, as we can't even entertain this possibility if we end up wanting to send Arcanine back to UUBL and just sort of reset this thing.

----------------------

So, I think the correct thing to do here is as follows:

• Step 1: Gather up a voter list and vote on a Slate 3 that includes Jumpluff, Arena Trap, and Linoone.
• Step 1b: Gather opinions on Arcanine during the Slate 3 process to see what qualified voters think about the meta's current state with Arcanine in it.
• Step 2a: Give Lapras an official test in UUSD, but only if the general opinion on Arcanine is that it's fine
• Step 2b: If the general on Arcanine is that it's NOT fine, then change direction and instead test a non-Arcanine meta out in upcoming UUSD and don't test anything else in the meantime.

Tagging Lily Indigo Plateau and rs for awareness, as well as some others like Bouff Heysup fatty Parpar Glue LpZ for general opinions

 

[HANTSUKI]

Please, let Ark9 stay. It's been great to the tier and changed it in a good way.

I'm not saying anything about Jumpluff because I didn't play its meta, but I'll say what I think about Lepras + Kadabra since I played UFFPL:

Lepras: totally fine, should drop to UU. It can be pretty versatile without being broken at all. I would say its best niche is being another Heal Beller and maybe a Perish Songer if you want this. As a Cursemon I would use Walrein instead and as a special attacker I still would prefer a Lanturn or even Walrein even if it doesn't have TBolt. Encore and Hidden Power are better than a Tbolt without stab imo.

Kadabra: I liked it, but it's a mon that can actually change the meta quite a bit. You'll need to start running more priorities if you're going offensive since the tier is quite slow for Kadabra or prepare some real Psychic resists. You're not going to be able to put a Wish Kenga as wall and call it a day, Kadabra + Spikes is quite strong. It still can't really switch into anything, that's why it's not totally broken. Buuut I can see how people would dislike it. I think it should be tested again so we can have a better sample.

 

[fatty]

Just a couple thoughts:

• I really think Arcanine should stay as well. I’ve only seen positive things come from it’s addition and I think claims of it being too powerful are overblown.
• As far as slate 3 goes, Jumpluff and Diglett seem fine. I hate arena trap but even I can’t argue that Diglett would give players unreasonable advantages. Jumpluff kinda sucks so there’s that.
• I implore everyone to ban the shit outta Linoone. I’ve said it for years but it’s a stain on this tier that brings nothing positive other than giving players an easy mode button. There’s little to no checks to linoone after a BD and there’s a myriad of options one can use to set it up properly. I’ve seen arguments about how linoone is good for the tier in terms of breaking fat/ stall. This is ridiculous stall is already pretty bad most of the time because the offensive mons outweigh the defensive options you have and the best mon in the tier is one of the ultimate stall breakers anyways. Plus, if tou TRULY need a normal BD user to break stall, you have a nice and shiny clefable at your disposal. Also, please do not cite usage. It’s the same merry-go-round as BP has been all these years. It’s seen as cheese (rightfully so) and so naturally it won’t get as much usage as some of the more “standard” mons, especially in a tier that is decades old and most people playing atp do it out of respect and enjoyment of the tier. Tldr linoone is the perfect definition of a broken mon and needs to go. It would do wonders for mine and I’m sure many others enjoyment of the tier.
• I was pretty against Lapras (and still might be) but the trial run has done enough to convince me that a true suspect is warranted and I’m open to that.
• I don’t think kadabra is remotely broken. Can’t say I’ve used much of it but it’s frailty combined with relative lack of KOing power just seems pretty meh.

Might add more thoughts when I think of them but that’s all for now.

 

[Glue]

Keeping it simple
Kadabra either gets OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by everything in the meta and is weaker than arcanine

Hide

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 151-178 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Kangaskhan Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 216-255 (97.7 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
220 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 74-88 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
220 SpA Grumpig Hidden Power Dark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 156-184 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 168-198 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Arcanine Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 197-232 (47.5 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The metagame needs more breakers and Kadabra's most healthy niche is to check Arcanine.

Hide

0- Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 137-162 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I support Lapras being freed, no comment on Jumpluff and Diglett.
Linoone can burn in hell.

 

[Heysup]

Just a couple thoughts:

• I really think Arcanine should stay as well. I’ve only seen positive things come from it’s addition and I think claims of it being too powerful are overblown.
• As far as slate 3 goes, Jumpluff and Diglett seem fine. I hate arena trap but even I can’t argue that Diglett would give players unreasonable advantages. Jumpluff kinda sucks so there’s that.
• I implore everyone to ban the shit outta Linoone. I’ve said it for years but it’s a stain on this tier that brings nothing positive other than giving players an easy mode button. There’s little to no checks to linoone after a BD and there’s a myriad of options one can use to set it up properly. I’ve seen arguments about how linoone is good for the tier in terms of breaking fat/ stall. This is ridiculous stall is already pretty bad most of the time because the offensive mons outweigh the defensive options you have and the best mon in the tier is one of the ultimate stall breakers anyways. Plus, if tou TRULY need a normal BD user to break stall, you have a nice and shiny clefable at your disposal. Also, please do not cite usage. It’s the same merry-go-round as BP has been all these years. It’s seen as cheese (rightfully so) and so naturally it won’t get as much usage as some of the more “standard” mons, especially in a tier that is decades old and most people playing atp do it out of respect and enjoyment of the tier. Tldr linoone is the perfect definition of a broken mon and needs to go. It would do wonders for mine and I’m sure many others enjoyment of the tier.
• I was pretty against Lapras (and still might be) but the trial run has done enough to convince me that a true suspect is warranted and I’m open to that.
• I don’t think kadabra is remotely broken. Can’t say I’ve used much of it but it’s frailty combined with relative lack of KOing power just seems pretty meh.

Might add more thoughts when I think of them but that’s all for now.

instead of making my own post I would say I agree with fatty's post this except for:
1. I do think Arcanine is quite insane without Swellow taking the brunt of our focus but I think I'm in the minority here and frankly a lot of it likely comes from people refusing to adapt and use "bad mons (ie. they are aren't actually bad but people don't like the idea of using cradily and camerupt)". I also think if the measuring stick is Kanga then still we are below that, but not too far away. If people wanted to revisit Arcanine I would definitely get it.
2. I don't have a real opinion on Kadabra yet but in my few tests my first reaction is that it was more likely broken than not. The main advantage kadabra has over most other fast special sweepers are that psychic resists that don't get doinked by hp dark are almost non-existent (ie. you can cover off fast electrics and waters (which are slower too) with Amph, plume, rose etc.) and that Kanga can't rest stall it out because of encore or calm mind. It can't really switch into stuff but it's really in the same boat as buzz and manec in that regard, it's just Kadabra is way more dangerous once it's in.

EDIT: I guess I should also add that I generally feel that since Swellow was not freed, we should altogether stop dropping things. I cannot comprehend why we tested Swellow and Arcanine before Jumpluff but that's what happened.

 

[Parpar]

• Jumpluff is fine. Subseed sucks SD is ok at best. Outside hitting the sleep powder or encoring the passive move it needs at least +4 to make progress with HP Flying which is lol. You also have nothing to touch rocks outside toxic.
• Arena Trap is cheese and cheese should stay banned imo. Yes, diglett/trapinch are trash but it would be dumb if your opp decided to gamble and bring lead diglett into lead ampharos. Definitely makes more sense to me to keep it banned esp if we want to axe Linoone.
• Linoone is omega cheese. I don't know how that mon has stayed in the tier as long as it has. The fact that your always one kanga rest read from a sweep is ???. It offers nothing to the tier outside wasted thought for it when it comes to building and in game.
• Arcanine I am mixed on. It's definitely one of the best mons in the tier. Sometimes I feel like it's too much and punishes passive too hard. On the other hand, there are answers to it. You have good waters/rocks, spikes, and status users a plenty in the tier. It may be a case of people still not building appropriately for it. I wouldn't mind if it gets looked at again tho.

Have no input on Lapras or Kadabra b/c I don't think watching uufpl replays is enough to come to an opinion. Probably another test would work.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I think I'm in the minority but these changes feel like they've made the metagame worse than ever. Arcanine/Kang/Ampharos/Tenta bulky offense/balance teams just slamming into each other. Not that fun to watch or play.

A year later I still think we should just rip the band aid off and drop everything. I recently held a BL tournament and honestly the tier does not have many unbalanced elements (raikou, mostly). We are losing an entire (very fun) ADV tier to pure stubbornness while instead doing some weird piecemeal multi-tournament spanning testing that seems to have no rhyme or reason other than someone saying "I think x would be fine in current UU."

 

[Heysup]

I think I'm in the minority but these changes feel like they've made the metagame worse than ever. Arcanine/Kang/Ampharos/Tenta bulky offense/balance teams just slamming into each other. Not that fun to watch or play.

A year later I still think we should just rip the band aid off and drop everything. I recently held a BL tournament and honestly the tier does not have many unbalanced elements (raikou, mostly). We are losing an entire (very fun) ADV tier to pure stubbornness while instead doing some weird piecemeal multi-tournament spanning testing that seems to have no rhyme or reason other than someone saying "I think x would be fine in current UU."

I disagree with the first sentence since you're just describing the metagame before Arcanine and just adding an "Arcanine/" in front, however this is obviously entirely subjective and not my point so let's leave it at that.

My original opinion was that we either drop everything off or do nothing (see below), and I did (and do) agree that was the way to go. I do, however, think we have enough sunken costs here to continue with the piecemeal process we are using but I think we need to get a better handle on what is tested when, and why. The confusing thing for me (and I think other older players who were involved in testing back when testing was intended to be really objective and formal) is the process that we decided to use. Frankly I'm not sure who exactly decided on the process or what process we are really using. It certainly had nothing to do with perceived power because we unbanned Arcanine and Swellow before Jumpluff (I can't find a person who thought this mon was better than the aforesaid two beasts) so it does feel like we are just re-tiering for no reason at all and doing nothing different than the first time this tier was made.

I think we need to iron out a better way to properly test and change the tier, if at all.

All my teams got deleted a few weeks ago so I'm fine with this. But in all seriousness, this always bugged me even though I really enjoy the tier as is.

That being said, I am having a hard time following the logic of unbanning random mons that for lack of a better phrase "look fun". I completely agree we should be removing the NFE clause because it makes no sense, even before, but especially after we removed it in Adv NU.

If we really want to unban the BL mons, even though their process (if you can call it that) was lacking it kind of seems like we would just be repeating what they did unless we re-did the tier from scratch, properly this time. I think there are some mons that are pretty well OU that are in BL though (smeargle, donphan(?), Ninjask (unless BP Clause changed that?)) and probably a few others. The problem of course with this is that we don't have usage stats or a real solid outlet to play the tier unless we think the ladder would be active enough.

In short, we should either drop everything that isn't OU or just drop NFEs only.

 

[Triangles]

The metagame is fine, builders just don't think outside the box at all. There's a ton of really underexplored threats. Despite obviously being the 2nd best mon in the tier, Arcanine is a positive influence and the faster pace it brings to the meta allows for lots of cool mons to thrive. I'd say keep the meta exactly as it is currently to let it settle and let builders explore things fully.

 

[LpZ]

Most of what I'm gonna say has already been said by some people here but I think showing more support towards something is still a valuable thing here.

- This mon, as for others, got me having some mixed feelings. It is honestly an annoying thing to account on builder, and yea people said it is because players don't really come out of the box to really prepare for it and although that is true I want to acknowledge that this tier is not that easy to get creative with so I don't judge anyone who may have struggles with it, this tier is very set on what is good and what isn't that good so getting creative is hard. On the other hand I think it is a good presence in the tier bringing firepower (pun not intended) on a bulkier mon that punishes too passive stuff while also giving headaches to lazy offensive stuff (by lazy I mean you can't just throw threat on threat in a team anymore and you really need to think about rk9 a lot). I'm fine if people out here prefer to get a second look into it but I like what rk9 brings to the tier regardless.
- I probably still want it gone as Parpar also mentioned it is pure cheese and it needs very little to sweep (reading a Rest from Kanga and chipping Oma just a little bit), but I haven't seen it in a hot minute idk if I just missed a recent game it did what its famous to do but people just don't usually have the balls or comfort to slot it in a team, you either slap it on a bulkier offensive team or you run it on HO which people usually avoids loading. Anyways this mon on paper will always be completely stupid in the tier but very few people has been putting it in practive, that being said gtfo here nooner.

Take the following stuff with a grain of salt as I havent played the latest UUFPL and although I didn't play ADV on ALTPL (pluff + at test) I explored it a bit and I kept a very close eye to the tested stuff.

- It is mid at best, very reliant on spikes staying on the other side to get a shot at being annoying and I agree with Heysup, how the fuck wasn't this tested before rk9 and swellow? Free it imo
- I basically share the same sentiment with Parpar, Diglett (or Trapinch idfk) is pure cheese and what it brings to the table is not good for the tier, yea it can't OHKO anything but with the current pace and environment the tier presents, trapping a slightly chipped Ampharos can go a long way and it is just for free and fucks with the dynamic of playing around Ampharos or other "trappable" mons (by trappable I mean it needs not too much chip to be in range). I'm not a fan.
- Didn't build or played a game with Lapras but from discussions and builder exploration and replays from UUFPL it seemed completely fine and a very desireable drop if a test happens, compresses roles while being a decent mon overall and it doesn't really shake the tier at all while making building slightly easier, looks good and I'd be happy to take part on an official test with it.
- I don't knowwwwwwwwww, it is not BROKEN but for it to be balanced out the tier would likely get through some weird adaptations, as already mentioned psychic resists are already rare and most of them just can't take HP Dark well while punishing passivity with Encore, Sub and Calm Mind. It would prob shake the tier quite a bit almost forcing you to run Sableye, Metang and bulky psychics like Hypno and Slowking on most teams to have actually reliable answers.

Imo the tier has def gotten better and more fun to play and I'm very happy on how the discussion about potential drops/bans have been active on both forums and discord, many old gen lower tiers would love this type of activity. About dropping every UUBL, I would personally only do that way later when if even after whatever action we take on the aforementioned mons the tier still find issues or unsatisfaction, we could`ve done that earlier before any other action but since we decided to go for this line of action we should stick to it (by sticking to it I mean only messing with stuff that look realistically good and balanced for the tier while not making earthquakes on it), as of now I think after the next voting whenever it happens we should just have a year to embrace the tier as is and to see if we can find some other problem. Thanks for posting guys!

 

[BigFatMantis]

So after reading all of the comments here and discussing this with several people, this seems to be the best route to take at the moment:

Step 1. Slate 3 will go up very soon to vote on Jumpluff, Arena Trap, and Linoone. Tagging Lily for awareness on this one (whenever you get the time)
Step 2. Following Slate 3, all of the qualified voters will be surveyed on how they feel about the current metagame. Mostly, the survey will consist of general enjoyment, as well as what path we should be taking moving forward.
Step 3. Following the conclusion of the survey, we will post results here to discuss where to go. Any of the following paths can be taken depending on community sentiment:

• We revisit Arcanine and consider re-testing it, halting all other tests of any future UUBLs
• We explore Lapras and consider testing it in an upcoming UU Team Tour.
• We explore something else in addition to/instead of Lapras and consider testing it in an upcoming UU Team Tour (maybe Kadabra or something yet-to-be-mentioned).
• We consider doing a mass drop of all or nearly all UUBLs and totally reinvent ADV UU (this is referred to as "the nuclear option")
• We actually decide it's best to do absolutely nothing following Slate 3 and just leave the meta where it is.

Also, if anyone is interested we are hosting an ADV UU"P"BL Tour in the UU Subforums ($50 Gift Card prize), which might marginally help in this discussion later on.

Since Slate 3 will be going up soon (not sure exact timeline but sometime soon), I'll give my brief opinions on the slate:

1. I think Jumpluff is more than fine, and should be unbanned. It can have a unique niche that isn't great, but can be nice to have sometimes on the righh team. My personal philosophy is that if it's not broken it shouldn't be banned, and I don't think Jumpluff is even close to be broken and is an easy unban for me.
2. I think Arena Trap should be unbanned as well. It's not game breaking at all, Diglett doesn't win the 1v1 vs anything (it loses to lead Ampharos in a lead scenario unless the Ampharos is 0 Def which it never is), and even though it can pick off a weakened Ampharos, maybe that's fine and we should stop putting Ampharos on every team anyways. Arena Trap is legal in every other ADV tier, no reason for UU to be any different especially when it's not going to affect it that much at all since no serious team is using Diglett, and if you do get trapped by Diglett then your opp probably doesn't have a very good squad of 6.
3. Linoone I think should stay UU. I am in the minority on this one probably but I just don't think it's broken and I think people just find it super annoying and don't want to deal with it. It rarely gets used anymore because it's high risk (most good players will rarely let it set up ever), and some players even run specific counters to it like salac ghosts if they think they're facing a cheeser (I don't think this is necessary though since you simply have to not let it set up and it won't beat you). Even Arcanine has knocked it down a bit bc of ESpeed Priority knocking out any non-Salac Linoone, so now all Linoones basically have to be Salac to even have a chance. I don't really want to get in an argument on here over it and I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind on it, but I just wanted to lay out my own opinion on it.

That's all for today.

 

[Lily]

With credit to BigFatMantis for compiling this stuff for me, here's the voter list that will be voting on Slate 3 (Jumpluff, Linoone, Arena Trap). I'll leave this here until I'm back from vacation for transparency.

ADV UU Cup 2022 - semifinalists
BigFatMantis
esche
gorex
Amukamara

UUSD 2022
Glue
Garay oak
Bouff
Parpar
fatty
Heysup

UUPL 2023
crying
rs
LpZ
ArcticBreeze
shiloh

ALT PL 2023
RampageWebber
JabbaTheGriffin
Alkione

ADV PL 2023
SOMALIA
xtra$hine
The Kyle
Triangles

UUFPL 2023
Mossy Sandwich
airfare
LBN
innovamania
EllingtonReborn
HANTSUKI

Would appreciate if those who have not shared their thoughts already could do so. If you don't have posting access, just let me know and I'll sort it out. Ty ^^

 

[LBN]

I didn't get to play the meta where this was legal, so I can only echo this stuff so much, but from what I observed this mon is mostly niche at best, the speed it brings is interesting since most our non-electrode high speed mons beyond the swath or 105s are terrible. I'll go over the fact we setup a 2nd batch of suspect down testing before we even voted on this thing later since I find that ridiculously nonsensical.

I'm torn on this one, because one hand, I'm aware diglett isn't absurdly broken or anything in this tier and would likely be fine... On the other, i Loathe arena trap with every fiber of my being, and I think ADV UU is unique in how many of it's key component that hold pokemon like Electabuzz and Kanga back are up for trapping, and our counter measures for trapping like pursuit, or something like trace porygon2, are terrible. On that note i'd probably vote to keep it gone, I think the tier is better without it.

This pokemon is more than fine, bringing forth an interesting building conundrum of Walrein vs Lapras where while lapras brings more team utility like Heal Bell and Water Absorb, Walrein brings RK9 insurance and more variance in sets. RK9 i'll get to shortly but this pokemon brings valuable defensive and offensive utility and shakes the tier up in a positive way, can't endorse enough.

I think this pokemon is just a bit too much in practice. In one of my games in UUFPL it was absurdly dangerous, but i think i showcased how you can play around it to decent effect. Of course, even though i lost that exchange i felt like i was rewarded for playing as well as i did. On the other hand, I think we have a couple of pokemon who can soft check kadabra to an extent like Ampharos and fat end Kanga, but I still think kadabra has a little to much for it to be ok.

This one I'm unsure what i'd vote on. On one hand, I find this thing is fairly difficult to get a belly drum off safely, and shifts have brought things like intimidate espeed RK9, and haunter to add a couple of varying checks. On the other, Linoone is a type of game design failure that brings nothing to whatever tier it inhabits besides cheese, and I'm sure the tier would be healthier with it gone, so i'd probably vote ban but im still unsure.

I think this Pokémon has made this tier leaps and bounds superior. Before this I always found things like Scyther incredibly stupid, and we had a lack of even a single viable Fire type. RK9 changed both of these and brought a ton of varying utility to the table. Intimidate is a fantastic thing to have and open up gameplay adaptations, and Espeed is very nice for chinchecking alot of dishonest pokemon like Linoone or the aforementioned Kadabra. I find the Pokemon fairly nutty, as being able to outspeed and come very close to OHKOing gligar w a Fire blast is quite nutty. As for Defensive Counterplay, I've seen people say it doesn't exist but I don't find that to the be case, Pokémon like Altaria, Lanturn, Tentacruel and more provide ample and varied defensive counterplay, and you can also try using RK9 as a check to itself, forgoing Intimidate for Flash Fire, and play offense in that way.

As for the meat of this, I think the fact we have had 2 separate tests and didn't solve one before doing another test tour was a big mess up here. While i'm not complaining since I'm one of them, I never got to play a single game under Jumpluff/Diglett meta and still get to vote on their future and I don't think I can say it's a good thing in good conscience. The other fact of Lapras/Kadabra voters potentially having the same thing is also odd and them being done at the time they were (nearly concurrent with the other tour) was frankly a terrible way to go about it. I'm unopposed to this pick n choose drop type format since we have all the time in the world, but I find us doing it poorly if this keeps up. I Find there are still pokemon who can still be tested (Crobat, Ludicolo, Exeggutor, Marowak, Donphan and maybe even more including Sceptile and Entei) but we need to clear up how we do these. I'm still also unopposed to the drop everything approach, and I dont think it's too late to change to that method, but i'm still unsure. Overall, we should vote on Lapras and Kadabra before we add another Pokémon to the slate.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Some ALT PL Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-672609 Leech Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-672976 SD Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-674177 Arena Trap's only game (not much happened)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-676491 SD + Encore Jumpluff
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-676905 The only game Jumpluff carried to victory

Just in case people don't scroll up, just wanted to emphasize these replays again, as it may help people decide how to vote on Jumpluff/Arena Trap.

I didn't really go looking for Linoone replays but we all know how that works by now. I am sure.

Also, I wanted to address this briefly:

As for the meat of this, I think the fact we have had 2 separate tests and didn't solve one before doing another test tour was a big mess up here. While i'm not complaining since I'm one of them, I never got to play a single game under Jumpluff/Diglett meta and still get to vote on their future and I don't think I can say it's a good thing in good conscience. The other fact of Lapras/Kadabra voters potentially having the same thing is also odd and them being done at the time they were (nearly concurrent with the other tour) was frankly a terrible way to go about it. I'm unopposed to this pick n choose drop type format since we have all the time in the world, but I find us doing it poorly if this keeps up. I Find there are still pokemon who can still be tested (Crobat, Ludicolo, Exeggutor, Marowak, Donphan and maybe even more including Sceptile and Entei) but we need to clear up how we do these. I'm still also unopposed to the drop everything approach, and I dont think it's too late to change to that method, but i'm still unsure. Overall, we should vote on Lapras and Kadabra before we add another Pokémon to the slate.

The Lapras/Kadabra test was not official, as UUFPL cannot do any official tests as it's not an official Team Tour with ADV UU. The point of this unofficial "test" was just to gauge how Lapras/Kadabra would do to see if it's worth testing either of them officially in an official Team Tour such as UUSD. So, there never really were 2 separate tests, and there is no voting slate for Lapras and/or Kadabra planned for the future unless either of them are tested officially. Which, we may or may not do, depending on community opinion after this Slate 3. But the data gained from UUFPL does help in determining whether this future official test would be beneficial. Nonetheless, the only actual test that took place was Jumpluff/Arena Trap in ALT PL, and so we are only voting Jumpluff, Arena Trap, and Linoone with no future slates officially planned.

After this slate we plan on surveying qualified voters to see what direction we should be taking and what action, if any, we should prioritize. There is no actual consensus here on what to do after this Slate 3, and anything is possible from a massive total drop to a massive do-nothing and let everything sit.

 

[Amity]

I posted my thoughts over in the ADV UU Metagame Discussion thread here so I will keep my thoughts here brief and what I think should happen with the future of the tier.

Keep it imo, very commanding in the builder and in practice and makes the tier a little less offense-inclined but I like it as a breaker and another priority mon. If we had more BLs to check Arcanine I would prefer that over resetting our progress and rebanning it.

With the way the meta has developed no I don't want to keep Linoone in. In a team preview-less generation prepping for Linoone feels impossible without an Endure Dbond Haunter, and I don't buy the "just dont let it set up" sentiments. We already have good fatbreakers in Slowking and Feraligatr, Linoone is just an extreme with how it wins the game on the spot. Ban Linoone.

UU at heart, UUBL in tiering. Drop immediately without question.

Yes I mention Trapinch here it can trap Arcanine more reliably. Anyways, unban Arena Trap. Dedicating an entire slot to taking Amphy out only goes so far and it is very prone to feeling like dead weight. It isn't broken and doesn't really enable anyone, if anything I'll be surprised if people can find a working structure with it.

No other mon does what Lapras does, being a mixed bulky water with bell and Tbolt. I love Lapras' presence and it doesn't outclass Walrein at all, more options for both offensive progress and team support is cool while trading eq, thick fat, and being a better wincon. We should give Lapras another look because I'm almost certain it is a positive influence.

I think Kadabra is balanced in certain ways but its not the most immediately helpful to the tier. I've seen everyone try using it as a Psychic nuke but it does have merit as a Knock Off stallbreaker. However, I think we should hold off on Kadabra until we have Lapras in the tier, and at that point I'm not opposed if it doesn't get its own suspect at all.

After this I think we should call it quits and let the meta settle with a Lapras meta and let people have fun. I do think after Slate 3 and whatever happens when we gauge survey results, we should look on updating the resources for this tier. So far this tier has accessibility issues because of horribly outdated Smogon dex analyses and a VR/Samples made before Arcanine and I wish to change that.

 

[Amity]

After Slate 3 Voting, me and BigFatMantis hosted a survey to gather qualified voters opinions on the metagame and where to go with the tiering process. I have gathered 19 total responses and will share my findings with you all, this shows how we should decide the direction of this tier. Since this is an explanation from data, I will bin my personal opinion and let the numbers speak for themselves.

Q1: On a scale of 1 to 5, how much do you enjoy the current ADV UU metagame?

People seem to have a generally positive reception of the metagame. Throughout the tiering process and ADV UU's lifespan, we should aim to maintain the average of 4 to 5.

Q2: Do you think Arcanine's presence is centralizing enough that we should give it another look/evaluation/test?

A majority of people are fine with Arcanine in the current metagame. What this tells me is, it's safe to say a possible future Arcanine suspect test shouldn't be off the table, but Arcanine's presence isn't unhealthy enough right now to warrant immediate action and we can safely continue the tiering process without having to backtrack.

Q3: Do you support the idea of an official Lapras suspect test in an upcoming official UU tour?

Lapras has an overwhelming amount of support for being tested. It seems people think very well of its place in the tier as judged by its performance in UUFPL, and Lapras should have a proper suspect test in a tour like UU Snake Draft. I will be mentioning Lapras a lot here, as 84% of people believe Lapras could be a possible threshold of a successful UU, and how that will determine where we go afterward.

Q4: Should Kadabra be looked at more extensively for a potential future drop?

Although under half of people think that Kadabra should be looked at soon, the majority says that we can at some point take a closer look at it, potentially once we can assess Lapras' place in the tier. More people seem opposed to Kadabra than Lapras at this stage.

Q5: How interested are you in a potential grand scale UUBL drop at once?

People's opinions are very mixed on this topic, there doesn't seem to be a general consensus on if we can drop a bunch of UUBL Pokemon in. In potential future surveys, I will keep a close eye on this question to see if it happens to lean any such way in the tiering process.

Q6: How satisfied are you with the current tiering process being used to handle BL drops?

Although not everyone is on board, people seem to like the current direction we are going.

Q7: When would be your ideal stopping point for the tiering process?

The general consensus is that at we should continue the retiering process, at least until we make a verdict on Lapras or even further still for 42% of people.

Q8: Do you have any additional thoughts/comments/concerns about the future of this tier?

I want to share some interesting and insightful responses I have received from this question, as it seems they provide a lot of nuance.

said this anyway in the vote but if we dont want to drop all then we should stop entirely after lapras. if the majority of ppl who play the tier want to drop everything im cool with it, if not im also cool with it, lets just not do anything stupid and haphazard (you could maybe argue this whole thing from the get go was though idk idc)

Lack of leadership (at least official leadership) means we don't really have an idea of what is going on. We should have been more organized with the testing. Swellow was tested way too early but ideally we would have stopped testing after even one mon was voted BL.

If we're truly going with the current process, I would like to stop at lap. If we're honestly exploring uubl, im all for dropping everything and tiering from there.

Please do a full drop and drop current UU to RU, I beg of you. This nonsense is frustrating.

Lapras/Kadabra/Donphan/Steelix should be tested and that's enough, rest should be kept BL

hi

From what I have gathered, here is a general summary of what I think this all means:

We should continue the tiering process and give a proper suspect test to Lapras. Anything else should be re-assessed depending on what the result of that test would be.

Thank you to everyone who participated in this survey!

 

[BigFatMantis]

UUSD has concluded the Lapras test, and a vote is due to go up soon. Before it does though, I am pinging everyone who participated to share their thoughts if they so choose. And ofc anyone else should share their thoughts if they have any on Lapras specifically. Normally I would post all the relevant Lapras replays here but uhhhhh..... you know why that's not happening. The only saved replay is the Heysup v. Xrn game from Finals but I would urge everyone not to vote based on that one game since 1 replay is a very poor sample size.

Tagging everyone who won at least one game in UUSD and played at least 4 (though the actual voter list is much larger):

Xrn Heysup Chaos23333 gorex Sirwings HANTSUKI col49 SEA

My personal thoughts on Lapras:

I think it's fine. I don't consider it a negative presence, and it does give some more variety in the team options/building. Curse Lapras is kind of oppressive because it can't get crit, but if your team loses to Curse Lapras you probably also lose to Curse Walrein without a crit anyways. No other Lapras set is even close to problematic/oppressive and the non-Curse versions give you another Beller that isn't Amph (or Alt) or an offensive water with TBolt which is nice. I would vote to free it.

*edit* some replays are back so I copied some Lapras ones from UUSD:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3uu-723289
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-723915
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3uu-724970
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3uu-727178 (not a Lapras replay but a Curse Walrein replay for kicks)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3uu-725891
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3uu-728381

There were obviously more games than this but this is all I could find from the replays thread