Return of the Gangsta - RMT (needs a fair bit of help)

[Stallion]

Heh I like that song ^_^

Anyway hey everyone :)

As most of you probably know, for the past couple of months I’ve been away from smogon, school has been really busy and all so its been taking its toll on me. However, recently I’ve been playing here and there to get back into the swing of things and I’ve come up with a new team with the help of SoT (thanks dude :D).

Its been doing alright for me, most of my losses coming from hax, but when it comes to pokemon I’m a perfectionist. I still feel that there are some issues that could be fixed with this team, so I’m taking it here to get help.



Without further adieu:

Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 64 Atk/192 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Encore
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This lead is awesome! Encore is what really sets it apart from any other lead I have used imo, as probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it nets me an early-game advantage. After setting up Stealth Rock, most opponents use either a water attack or a ground attack to KO me, and with Focus Sash intact that’s where I Encore, giving stuff like Mence an invaluable free switch in. EV’s are pretty standard, as are the rest of the moves.
---

Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Ice Fang

Recommended to me by Stathakis, I was a bit dubious about it at first because I thought that Jolly would be too great a loss of power. Turns out that I love this thing to bits. In collaboration with my Infernape, I get a massive earlygame advantage in about 90 % of my matches. I usually end up sacrificing this early to get alot of damage onto some of Metagross' common switch ins such as Celebi and Rotom. Bulky Steels tend to switch in and explode on this, but I don't mind cause once again it just opens shit up for Meta.
---

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Meh standard Celebi, my Gyara and Breloom counter as well as my primary switch in on most walls, to scout for status. Hidden Power is preferred as I don’t have a strict Scizor counter, and all but the most bulky ones will fall after a switch in or two. I usually spam Thunder Wave early game to try and nab a Heatran or Tyranitar, and Grass Knot and Recover are for STAB and recovery respectively.
---

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Recover

SoT suggested this too, to patch up my Infernape weakness but mehh I’m just not sold on it yet, it is the team-member I’m most willing to change. Once again a self explanatory moveset, Surf is there to hit stuff like Tyranitar and Scizor on the switch in for decent damage, Calm Mind is to try and achieve a late-game sweep, because even paralysed Latias can do a number to a team late game. Dragon Pulse for STAB and Recover so I can wash, rinse and repeat.
---

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/172 Def/84 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rest

Standard CMCune, this thing has won many games for me. Its probably my MVP so I'm loathe to replace it. 84 Special attack for the guaranteed KO on neutral natured Mence even without Stealth Rock, max HP so I can outstall Blissey easily with the rest in defense for bulkiness. Ice Beam is here instead of Sleep Talk so I don’t grant stuff like Mence and other grassers completely free switch ins. It's also bulky enough to not even be 3HKOed by a CB Scizor's U-Turn (factoring in Leftovers), so it is usually my first switch in to it to scout. Also my first (and only good) switch into Tyranitar.
---

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 32 HP/252 Atk/28 Def/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch

I used to have a Scizor here, but the lack of a setup presence really hurt my team, so I switched to AgiliGross and haven’t really regretted it since. The speed is to outrun Adamant ScarfJirachi/Flygon and stuff like Jolly Gyarados and Salamence with a Dragon Dance. 32 HP is so that I have one extra attack with Life Orb and 28 Def is filler. Anyway the basic premise of this is to come in on a Choiced Ice/Dragon attack and clean shit up late game. I sometimes regret not having Ice Punch when a Gliscor comes out, but overall Thunderpunch does do a lot more for me. Meteor Mash and Earthquake are standard.

---

Old Pokemon:

Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 176 HP/100 Atk/56 Spd/176 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower

Scizor comes in once again to replace Metagross as my Gengar/Latias weakness was too great. The Ubers Choice Bander works wonders in my team, as it takes less then 50 % from all of Gengar's attacks barring a specs Thunderbolt (barely 2HKOs)/Focus Blast. Bullet Punch also overcomes my teams big issue with speed that I was worried about, without requiring set up like Metagross.

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk/176 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Brick Break
- Roost
- Fire Blast

SoT suggested I use this, even though usually I prefer classic DDmence but I must say that it works wonders for my team. It takes advantage of the free-switch in granted by Infernape and with a bit of prediction, proceeds to pummel pretty much every pokemon in the metagame. I contemplated going Naïve but the power to 2HKO bulky waters switching in is too tempting to give up, and 280 speed is a decent number anyway.


Major Weaknesses

Gengar – Yeah Gengar pretty much 2HKOes everything on my team barring Suicune. It was fairly rare but a few of them popped up yesterday so maybe something that can stop it well?

Lucario – I know I got Celebi and stuff (and used to have Zapdos lol), but my main worry is that I don’t have a good revenge killer for it, as I have a pretty slow team.

Latias – Once Metagross is gone, it has a lot of fun with my team. I haven’t been swept by one yet, but it hurts like a bitch.


Issues I’d like to fix

In Infernape, I have the ultimate early game advantage, but aside from Salamence I really don’t do much to take advantage of it. Maybe replacing something to net me a really big early game advantage would be preferablel


Speed – my team is slow as fuck, with no scarfers and only one speed booster! I used to have ScarfRachi over Metagross too which did pretty well, but yeah I probably need a revenge killer ASAP.


So yeah there are quite a few problems with my team, so please rate it and help me improve. I am very rusty so there are probably obvious fixes that I’ve missed, so don’t hesitate to point them out, provided you give good reasoning behind your notions.


Cheers :)

 

[ToF]

Hey dude,

Nice team, you have lots of stuff nicely covered, while maintaining a nice defense and offense. Honestly, I don't see the need for much speed because of the bulk everything has.

The thing that problems you is Gengar, right? Well, Metagross is suppose to stop it, but I like Scizor much better in that last slot. For one, it eliminates Gengar for you, so problem solved. Secondly, you have a defensive mon to take any of Scizor's common switch-ins. For Gyarados you have Celebi, for Zapdos you have Latias, for Heatran you have Suicune, etc. As for all those Dragons that you mentioned, Scizor revenge kills with Bullet Punch no problem, 2HKO'ing both Flygon and Salamence. Jirachi you deal with through Suicune or Infernape if its still alive. I mean ultimately it's your call, but to me priority makes up for a lack of speed, and since you have a nice defense, mispredicting or hitting for little damage shouldn't cost you much.

If you do decide to switch back, I'd use the ubers EV spread so that you have some more bulk.

Scizor @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
176 HP / 100 Atk / 176 SpD / 56 Spe
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower

Also note that if you do Pursuit something, with such a strong defense you shouldn't have any issues facing an opponents stat-up mon =)

 

[Stallion]

Mmm CBScizor is actually cool, I did have the Bulky Roost version but it didn't really add enough to my team, hopefully Scizor's priority will overcome my fear of being too slow :).

I'll playtest it and if I win consistently with it, I'll update the OP.

Any other rates? (PS I'm putting pictures in now :) )

 

[Stallion]

Aww goof said he'd rate it :(

Anyway 23.5 hour bump!

EDIT: Well goof told me he loved it on shoddy aside from maybe a bulkier Latias, so forget the opening statement :P

 

[animenagai]

Hey MS, if you want a bulkier Latias, I would go with a Modest version with life orb, 252 sp. atk, 100 speed and the rest in HP. Do feel to experiment with the defensive EV's though as you might wanna put quite a few EV's in Sp.def as those are the type of hits latias can take more.

As for the set itself, I would run surf, draco metoer and recover. For the last slot, I would run something like psycho shift or one of the screens. Psycho shift is surprisingly handy when you take say a t-wave from Bliss or a WOW from rotom (which it does beat). Makes it a better scout. You can consider running t-wave instead, but to be honest, most switch ins to latias (t-tar, gross, scizor and bliss) don't run a lot of speed anyways. Here's the short form:

Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 158 HP/100 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Surf
- Screens/Psycho Shift/You can have whatever you like, you can even upsize

With this set you can 2HkO scizor/t-tar with surf -> draco meteor as long as it doesn't run a lot of sp. def EV's with HP, which in my book is the number one reason to run this set over the standard CMer.

Only other thing I think you should do is change celebi to a tinkerbell set, as it does everything that this one does but hit harder. It can actually beat vappy too, which is something your current set cannot do. Here's the set:

Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 228 HP/36 Spd/244 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leaf Storm
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

For HP fire IV's, pick HP fire on the team builder and change the attack IV's to 26. This set OHKO's scizor (another thing your set now doesn't do) as well as common counters such as t-tar and flygon with leaf storm. Only thing that it really can't do jack to is Blissey, but that's true for a lot of special attackers.

Good team MS, love that you're back. There's the rate that I promised, hope it helped.

 

[Stathakis]

this is like a hella bulky offense team I guess?

anyways, there are a few changes that I think you should give a shot. first and foremost is jolly ddglo gyarados over mixmence. the reason for this is that if you have ape keeping off sr and even getting the guy locked into ground/water attacks early game, you can bring in gyara and often get his dd in that he needs. from here, it's likely your opponent either brought in rotom, celebi, or a bulky water. if not, then you've not only got your early game advantage that you want but you'll likely be taking down 3+ pokemon. so, if they bring in rotom or celebi, there are a few things that might happen. if you're up against celebi, you can basically, if you are a more offensive player, sacrifice gyarados to hurt celebi and have one less thorn in metagross's side or if you're more conservative, switch to latias and play from there. both situations are quite playable from your situation, especially if you've weakened a few things already with infernape. if the opponent brings in a scarfrotom (no leftovers recovery tips you off) or jolteon, you can claim a waterfall kill and continue on to sodomize the enemy team, and with rotom gone metagross has a waaaaay easier life. if the opponent has a bulky water they're likely bringing it in on infernape, meaning that it's likely going to already be weakened a bit and gyarados will be setting up for it, forcing it out, doing tons of damage, and the like. basically, switching to jolly ddgyara helps you get that early game advantage that you want so much, while at the same time removing a little bit of prediction from the game in terms of draco meteor and outrage, still helping you power through bulky waters, and even luring in some of metagross's annoying checks and counters.


now, with mixmence's absence and not too many good damaging pokemon to sacrifice, there arises a very big issue for this team, and that issue is called heavy stall. the good news is that if you sacrifice gyarados and metagross to beat down celebi, it's likely that last poke suicune can power through the enemy team.

and i just got caught on the spot and have to go. I'll add more thoughs later I guess

 

[Scofield]

If you're that worried about speed, I'd suggest trying out scarf latias, which works very well, as it can revenge ALL Flygon, Salamence, Gyarados, Infernape, Gengar, Heatran, and I'm probably missing something. Things that wall it like Blissey get screwed over by trick. I've been using it a lot lately, and it is making it to the top of my lists as far as revenge killers go.

I use:
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Surf
Trick

I'd think this would work better with metagross than scizor, since if you get pursuited, you have free set up for metagross.

 

[iKitsune]

I have a solution to cover your biggest problems. Tyranitar absolutely destroys this team and you said you wanted something to help you keep the tempo up so why not run SD Lucario @LO. Simultaneously he solves both your biggest problems with 4x resistances to both TTar's STAB attacks. Lucario can even help you with Latias and infernape to some extent by revenge killing them with ESpeed or taking a weak Crunching on choiced dragon move. I would definitely run crunch so you can beat Celebi and proceed to sweep with Suicune.
However this opens up a problem to DD babiri TTar which would be difficult to sort out your scizor only does 50-56% now with BP but i think suicune could survive a hit but after it's rampage it leaves you open nonetheless.
I hope you take on board my suggestion other than that great team.

 

[RainDance]

Instead of celebi cress could do alot better work like a calm mind cress with rest can help patch up this teams weaknesses idk thats what i think this team needs.
It helps fend off 1 of your weaknesses and only leaves you with 4 200% weaknesses.

Cress can actually handle specs mence and walls alot better than celebi.

 

[Ph3artehPh1r3]

Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 64 Atk/192 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Encore
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

This lead is awesome! Encore is what really sets it apart from any other lead I have used imo, as probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it nets me an early-game advantage. After setting up Stealth Rock, most opponents use either a water attack or a ground attack to KO me, and with Focus Sash intact that’s where I Encore, giving stuff like Mence an invaluable free switch in. EV’s are pretty standard, as are the rest of the moves.

I like this lead lol ^^ However, I would use Overheat>Fire Blast for the higher Base power. I don't think that he (she?) is ever going to stay in very long, but that could just be me D:
---

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 Atk/176 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Brick Break
- Roost
- Fire Blast

SoT suggested I use this, even though usually I prefer classic DDmence but I must say that it works wonders for my team. It takes advantage of the free-switch in granted by Infernape and with a bit of prediction, proceeds to pummel pretty much every pokemon in the metagame. I contemplated going Naïve but the power to 2HKO bulky waters switching in is too tempting to give up, and 280 speed is a decent number anyway.
Is Roost really nessisary? I guess if you want this guy to live for a long time lol, go for it. But Brick Break really strikes me as odd. The only Pokemon that Brick Break does a significant amount more than Dragon Claw does is Tyranitar. Other than that, I would change the nature to the Special Attack+ Defense - because Intimidate covers the lower defense value.
---

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Meh standard Celebi, my Gyara and Breloom counter as well as my primary switch in on most walls, to scout for status. Hidden Power is preferred as I don’t have a strict Scizor counter, and all but the most bulky ones will fall after a switch in or two. I usually spam Thunder Wave early game to try and nab a Heatran or Tyranitar, and Grass Knot and Recover are for STAB and recovery respectively.
Good.
---

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Recover

SoT suggested this too, to patch up my Infernape weakness but mehh I’m just not sold on it yet, it is the team-member I’m most willing to change. Once again a self explanatory moveset, Surf is there to hit stuff like Tyranitar and Scizor on the switch in for decent damage, Calm Mind is to try and achieve a late-game sweep, because even paralysed Latias can do a number to a team late game. Dragon Pulse for STAB and Recover so I can wash, rinse and repeat.
I am also not a great fan of Latias, and it really does the same thing as Suicune does. Perhaps chage this or Suicune to something Physically orientated, because 5/6 of your team is Specially based.
---

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/172 Def/84 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rest

Standard CMCune, this thing has won many games for me. 84 Special attack for the guaranteed KO on neutral natured Mence even without Stealth Rock, max HP so I can outstall Blissey easily with the rest in defense for bulkiness. Ice Beam is here instead of Sleep Talk so I don’t grant stuff like Mence and other grassers completely free switch ins. There are times where I miss haven’t CroCune but overall this poke hasn’t really let me down.
Like ^^
---

Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 176 HP/100 Atk/56 Spd/176 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower
---

Scizor comes in once again to replace Metagross as my Gengar/Latias weakness was too great. The Ubers Choice Bander works wonders in my team, as it takes less then 50 % from all of Gengar's attacks barring a specs Thunderbolt (barely 2HKOs)/Focus Blast. Bullet Punch also overcomes my teams big issue with speed that I was worried about, without requiring set up like Metagross.
Eh, good set, but the EV spread seems weird to me. Could you explain why you put the EVs how the are?


Old Pokemon:

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 32 HP/252 Atk/28 Def/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch

I used to have a Scizor here, but the lack of a setup presence really hurt my team, so I switched to AgiliGross and haven’t really regretted it since. The speed is to outrun Adamant ScarfJirachi/Flygon and stuff like Jolly Gyarados and Salamence with a Dragon Dance. 32 HP is so that I have one extra attack with Life Orb and 28 Def is filler. Anyway the basic premise of this is to come in on a Choiced Ice/Dragon attack and clean shit up late game. I sometimes regret not having Ice Punch when a Gliscor comes out, but overall Thunderpunch does do a lot more for me. Meteor Mash and Earthquake are standard.



Major Weaknesses

Gengar – Yeah Gengar pretty much 2HKOes everything on my team barring Suicune. It was fairly rare but a few of them popped up yesterday so maybe something that can stop it well?

Lucario – I know I got Celebi and stuff (and used to have Zapdos lol), but my main worry is that I don’t have a good revenge killer for it, as I have a pretty slow team.

Latias – Once Metagross is gone, it has a lot of fun with my team. I haven’t been swept by one yet, but it hurts like a bitch.


Issues I’d like to fix

In Infernape, I have the ultimate early game advantage, but aside from Salamence I really don’t do much to take advantage of it. Maybe replacing something to net me a really big early game advantage would be preferablel


Speed – my team is slow as fuck, with no scarfers and only one speed booster! I used to have ScarfRachi over Metagross too which did pretty well, but yeah I probably need a revenge killer ASAP.
LOL, for some reason, a Scarf Heracross seems to work with this team, but I really don't know why. Maybe you should try it xD

So yeah there are quite a few problems with my team, so please rate it and help me improve. I am very rusty so there are probably obvious fixes that I’ve missed, so don’t hesitate to point them out, provided you give good reasoning behind your notions.


Cheers :)

I tried my best in bold. Don't be too harsh on me :[

 

[Limitless]

First and foremost I'd like to congratulate you on your return back, and wish you the best of luck. Surprisingly enough, this is about the time I want to get into rating teams.

On to the team, I found your team quite odd and interesting at the same time. Having a suicide lead on such a bulky team was kind of odd to me. Honestly it looks like a waist of space when you think about what you're actually doing. Sure you're going to stop the rocks from hitting the floor, and sure you're going to setup rocks of your own (hopefully), but does your team really need that kind of role? Salamence is the only Pokemon on your team that benefits from that, and the rest just look like a regular bulky team (although your Salamence is mix, not exactly offensive). So I'm going to assume that you are down 5-6 in most cases in the beginning of the match. I really believe that you could fill up a hole in your team by swapping Infernape out for something more conventional that will benefit your team with Stealth Rocks and key resistances to counter specific Pokemon. However, I'll get to that later in this rate.

Now onto the weaknesses. As you have already mentioned, Gengar can be very troublesome, in which it can pretty much just pick its spots and attack from there. Also, those Gengars with Hidden Power [Fire] are starting to populate, which could hurt your Scizor immensly. Obviously we'll be needing to fill holes for this weakness.

While you say you do have a counter for Gyarados, I don't really buy into it. In some cases, not all, you're going to get hit with either a flinch or critical hit on Celebi with Ice Fang, granted it's hax, you really don't have anything further from there that can take it out. Sure you could lower its health with multiple Pokemon, and then maybe revenge kill it when it gets really low with Scizor, but by that time, your team is already in serious trouble. I don't know about you, but I don't like my teams relying on chance for their wins.

To a lesser extent, I see Jolteon being a slight issue. It has the oppertunity to wreck havak on your Salamence, Celebi, Latias (sort of), and Suicune. Obviously Jolteon isn't seen a lot, in which I wouldn't really worry about it that much, but it should be something you look out for. This is especially in regards to if Manaphy becomes OU (although I highly doubt).

Jirachi is basically in the same boat as Jolteon, seeing as how you barely see any nowadays, barring the lead Jirachi. Basically it can do away with Celebi, Latias, Suicune, and Scizor (sort of). Thunderbolt kind of ruins your parrade. Salamence is really the only thing that can kind of stop it, as Infernape will most likely be dead the second or third turn.

Lastly, Zapdos just utterly walls this team to death, with the correct set of course. Scizor automatically gets beat by it, Suicune is obvious, Latias can be paralyzed by Thunder Wave then killed by something (highly theorymond, but what ever), Celebi can't really do anything, and Salamence can be Thunder Waved and then from there just flat out stalled. Of course I'm throwing in more than one set, but either way, you're having trouble with Zapdos, depending on your style of play. The set in which that gives you troubles is up for debate, but just be aware of them.

As for suggestions, I'd highly recommend you change Infernape to something more bulky. This of course is if you plan on keeping it bulky, and not switch the overall feel to the team. A great possibility is Swampert, in which it will help against Jirachi, Metagross, Zapdos, and Jolteon (barring Hidden Power [Grass]). Also, this will help you get Stealth Rocks up, in addition to adding some more bulk to fill those holes. Staying along the bulky side of things, you may add Curse Sleeptalk Swampert over one of your Pokemon, possibly Salamence (only you know your weakest member of the team). This would essentially take out your weakness to all the Pokemon I had listed as threats, once again barring Hidden Power [Grass]. Now if we take things to the offensive side of the spectrum, keep the Infernape as the lead. Possibly think about Dragon Dance Gyarados over Salamence. Also, make Suicune an offensive variant. Likewise, Celebi would have to be changed, as that really opens up a Blissey great wall of china just completely walling you. The latter type of team I highly recommend you DON'T do, but it's an option, and I'd be willing to give some more thought into it if you wanted. However, as of right now, Swampert looks very hot on this team to either lead or sweep.

Hope I helped, old friend.

P.S. please disregard any grammar mistakes I may have done, I was in a rush, as my parents tend to get annoying when they see my food laying on the counter getting cold.

Edit: If you want the team more offensive, just take Stath's advice. I was aiming my rate more towards the bulky side.

 

[MEHOZ]

if you want some more speed on your team, and a replacement for latias, you might want to try out a choice scarf starmie.​

Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Grass Knot / psychic
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt​

the starmie will help a lot against mixnape, outspeeding it and OHKOing it. Also Gengar and Lucario are easily beaten by starmie if you opt to switch grass know to psychic. plus it'll be able to deal with DDsalamence much better, since your only chance against it is suicune.​

 

[Stallion]

Ok havent had a chance to reply with my internet connection being down and all, but I'll reply to all the raters:

@ Nagai - I'll test your suggestions, although I am worried about opening up a bigger Gyara weak on my team then I already had, as Celebi isn't the best of counters anyway, and only Suicune could really stand up to it. That and Blissey can now outstall me better, but I'll test a variant with your suggestions.

@ Stathakis - Yeah I did like Metagross alot better, I just got frustrated cause pretty much every team I saw that day had a Gengar which made me keep losing. I do agree though that my team operates better as a whole with Metagross, and that your DDLOGyara is an awesome suggestion, putting it in my team right away :).

@ Scofield, that suggestion seems like it would work really well with the team, especially Stathakis' take on it. I will test it in my Scizor/Mence team first and then in my variant with Metagross/Gyarados and post the results. The list of what it can revenge looks promising though. PS Modest or Timid, and 252/252?

@ iKitsune - nothing on my team gives Tyranitar a free switch in. Everything hits it hard, and even my Latias (its prime switch in target) does + 40 % (a 2HKO if I change it to LO, same with Celebi which will now KO). It doesn't really get a chance to switch in on me, and between Suicune and Scizor I handle it just fine. Thanks for the suggestion though, something like SDcario is something I'd been considering in the team, could be something I try in the future in that trouble 6th slot, although I don't like how lategame Heatran kills it.

@ RainDance - Nahh I don't really like Cresselia at all. Unlike Celebi which can potentially 2HKO Tyranitar and recover 50 % of its health (and outspeed Scizor without compromising its defenses), Cresselia just gives Tyranitar the perfect time to switch in and give me potential Tyranitar problems. That and I've already got 2 Bulky CMers, and Cress is limited in having a poor recovery option (Moonlight), Rest to make it setup bait (Suicune isnt really cause of good typing) or Rest/Talk for only one offensive move though. Thanks nonetheless.

@Phear (however you spell the rest of it) - Salamence dies to all sorts of Ice Beams and the like anyway, so why compromise its ability to switch into fighting/physical water attacks for pretty much nothing to gain in return? Also ScarfCross does give me a decent revenge killer, but with Scizor around a revenge killer that is OHKOed by Bullet Punch with such middling speed isn't desirable, although it actually doesn't look half bad in my team (although you didnt explain why).

@ Limitless - You're alive :D :D. Yeah Swampert seems like a good fit for my team based on what you've said. However, Jolteon and Zapdos both commonly run HP Grass, plus Expert Belt Jirachi (the only variant that really troubles my team) has Grass Knot. It could fit over Infernape/Salamence, but replacing either one of them removes my semi-weakness to Zapdos and replaces it with a fat weakness to stall in general, as it is sorta middling between offense and defense. A Cursepert actually does seem a pretty cool fit, but only in the team variant that runs Scizor as I need to get rid of Celebi first. Also shit like Vaporeon/Suicune is really common now, so its really easily walled which worries me. If I go the route of Swampert, do you think I should go the route of full stall instead?

@ Mehoz - Much like Latias, I like that Starmie although I do not like its lack of Trick. It does have that awesome type coverage + status immunity over Latias which is why I'll give it a testing run but Latias' ability to switch in better on Infernape is also tempting. In the team I'm testing TrickScarf Latias in, I'll also test Scarf Starmie

Thanks everyone for all the rates, I really appreciate them! Keep em coming :)

 

[Shizzle]

if you want some more speed on your team, and a replacement for latias, you might want to try out a choice scarf starmie.​

Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Grass Knot / psychic
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt​

the starmie will help a lot against mixnape, outspeeding it and OHKOing it. Also Gengar and Lucario are easily beaten by starmie if you opt to switch grass know to psychic. plus it'll be able to deal with DDsalamence much better, since your only chance against it is suicune.​

I prefer choice specs starmie (timid), still outspeeds all but scarfnapes, and does huge damage, and even manages to 2HKO swampert (dealing about 60% damage) who for some reason always switch into it. Psyhic while being STAB has pretty average coverage, so with the same moveset you can use trick.

 

[Ph3artehPh1r3]

@Phear (however you spell the rest of it) - Salamence dies to all sorts of Ice Beams and the like anyway, so why compromise its ability to switch into fighting/physical water attacks for pretty much nothing to gain in return? Also ScarfCross does give me a decent revenge killer, but with Scizor around a revenge killer that is OHKOed by Bullet Punch with such middling speed isn't desirable, although it actually doesn't look half bad in my team (although you didnt explain why).\

Well it's mostly because of my personal bias of <3ing scarfcross alot, but it adds some speed and physical power to your team. The bulletpunching Scizor is a problem though, maybe a Scarfed Kingler/ Electivire could work lol.

 

[Stallion]

Kingler? Lol it doesn't revenge kill anything, despite its good attack score its so slow even with a scarf. If I wanted a Scarfer, I'd probably throw Jirachi in there or make it something like Starmie/Latias.

Thanks for trying though :).

 

[M Dragon]

Its a pretty good team, I dont see any big weakness
Perhaps a Scarfchi could help your team a lot, and helps beating gengar, DDtar (which gives you trouble, specially babiri berry one), luke and latias
CB nape could also be problematic, u-turning your latias switching, and 2HKOing your team with the right attack (im not sure if it can 2HKO suicune)

 

[chenman333]

Like some others have said, I'm not really feeling a suicide lead fits too well. Perhaps just use good ol Metagross as your lead:

Metagross @ Occa/Shuca/Lefties/Lum, your pick
252 HP/224 Atk/12 Def/20 Spd
Adamant
-SR
-Explosion/EQ
-Meteor Mash
-Bullet Punch

Standard stuff to beat your Azelf and Aero leads. Gets the rocks up, and can go boom to take something annoying out. You don't get a "free switch in) but against many of the leads you can't beat (like Infernape if you don't run EQ+Occa), Salamence can get a pretty neat switch in anyway. Very consistent lead overall.

 

[Stallion]

Ehh that Metagross is a suicide lead though, and it is very effective one at that. However, its effectiveness means that everyone and their mother prepares for it (it is the number one lead) where as not many people expect EncoreApe and it seems to help more.

M Dragon - Whilst I have tried ScarfRachi (and it did fit decently in my team), I was wondering about your thoughts on Expert Belt Jirachi? It hurts the metagame a shitload, so yeah I was curious as to if you think it'd be a good team fit.

 

[Scofield]

On latias I just do the 252/252/6 spread with timid, unless you don't care for the speed tie with Gengar.

And if you're going to go with non scarf jirachi, I personally prefer the calm mind one at the moment, it is very unexpected and hurts things a shit load. I'm currently running the standard spread with calm mind/psychic/flash canon/tbolt, not much walls it, once heatran is out of the way (or non scarf and weakened slightly) not much can stand up to it.

 

[panamaxis]

Maybe a Lum Berry on latias to stop empoleon's from freezing you?..

In all seriousness, I'd do one of two things to scizor: go max attack / hp (preferably this option) or stick roost on there somewhere. The extra attack will probably help more often then that extra bulk. Don't forget that hp fire is listed as the primary option on gengar's sets.

I'd like to change latias, as it fills a similar role to suicune (who is already enough of an ape check, but...I'm not sure with what yet, maybe that Gyarados stathakis was talking about? also prodividing another ape check.

I think these suggestions will help u a lot more against stall, at the moment your only real threat is mixmence. But, if you can eliminate or significantly weakned their celebi, suicune can break stall too. Gyarados and more attack on scizor will help you acheive this goal.

 

[Stallion]

Nice suggestions everyone :), I'm especially intrigued by the Jirachi one (although I don't know where I'd put it in my team).

Anyway updating the OP with the team I currently play.