Regarding Focus Sash and it's balance

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QibingZero

The problem with Focus Sash is not that it currently is a suspect in the metagame, but that it easily could be in a metagame with seemingly small changes. Specifically, when there are no residual damage effects in play Focus Sash completely throws balance under the train.

Focus Sash was a bit of a shock when I first started serious D/P battling (when shoddy was still pretty gimp). I started out mostly using teams that didn't include Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstream, or Hail. However, I soon added SR in to every one of them that didn't have it because I was getting easily picked apart by the few people out there who ran multiple Focus Sashers. It blows to be up 6-2 and then lose because the 2 left were zam and weavile with sashes. SR is great in that regard - everything takes at least a small amount of damage from it, so you have the sash covered when you put it up. Of course, there is still use available to sashers as you have the time before SR is put up, and any time in between spins/setups to bring them out. I feel this is relatively balanced.


You can probably guess what this is leading to. I'm not the biggest fan of SR, by any means, but I feel that it is necessary in any metagame which also allows Focus Sash. The other options for countering sash use don't cut it often enough for it to remain balanced:

Spikes - Flying pokemon laugh at you, and spikers are much less common than SRers, causing centralization in that respect.

Toxic Spikes - Even less worthwhile than Spikes for this.

Sandstream - Certainly, it's likely that even more people will rely on this in a metagame which is SR free. Beside the pokemon which are immune to sandstorm damage still able to use sashes, you have increased TTar and Hippo use, and decreased use of pokemon that don't function well in sandstorm. Also of note: changing the weather.

Hail - Much as Sandstream, except while less pokemon are immune to it, it's also less realistic to use on a non-theme team due to Abomasnow.


So, it seems we either end up with a metagame in which Focus Sash is a very common occurrence and fast sweepers laugh at everyone, or one in which everyone fears Focus Sash Shedinja and uses SS/Spikes teams. This could be an exaggeration, of course, and we never know without testing. But really, common sense can hold out, and I think that it seems most reasonable that if there is ever going to be any testing on a metagame that does not include SR, Focus Sash will have to go too.


Note: This is not just another thread about testing SR. I've specifically targeted focus sash here because there seem to be quite a few people who don't think it's a valid concern. I'm also assuming that we agree on the statement: Without residual damage effects, focus sash is a serious menace to the metagame.
 
Note: This is not just another thread about testing SR.
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But isn't that the whole point of this thread? You're summing up 1 reason why we should test a SR-less metagame, aren't you? Sorry if I'm wrong, but I think that all the treads about SR have this as a reason.
Anyway, I agree that Focus Sash users will become more powerful and useful, but Extreemspeed Lucario and Bullet Punch Scizor are still hanging around.
 
We should not just ban Focus Sash from the game, instead we will probably have to make a Focus Sash Clause, that allows only one Focus Sash per team.

But this is IF Stealth Rock gets banned.
 
SkarmBlissFTW said:
We should not just ban Focus Sash from the game, instead we will probably have to make a Focus Sash Clause, that allows only one Focus Sash per team.

But this is IF Stealth Rock gets banned.
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So you're saying that, if banning Stealth Rock made the game worse, we should just start to ban even more things to make it better again?
 
Yes, but hopefully we won't have to ban anything more except for multiple sashes...

The reason why Focus Sash isn't so popular is because of the number one used attack in the game, Stealth Rock.

A non Stealth Rock metagame is just crying out for teams with six sweepers with sashes to wreak havoc.
 
I never understood this mentality about Focus Sash being a "broken" item without SR in play. Think about SD Lucario. If you choose to run Focus Sash over Life Orb, you miss out on so many KOs its not funny. Same goes to things like CM Alakazam and Nasty Plot Azelf. You sacrifice power for a one turn survival followed by being slaughtered by a priority move (although in some cases the priority move will already slaughter you, but still).

If they uses Focus Sash, they are not using Leftovers, Life Orb, A berry, etc. That may put them at a disadvantage in most cases.
 
Bleh
Focus Sash is a myth from the time everyone was noob
I fail to see how it is so broken

Okay it gives you an extra turn in a perfect condition however thats the sacrifice for power LO gives

agreeing with the guy above
 
even if stealth rock is removed, non flying / leviating pokemon will still be damaged by spikes and toxic spikes, lots of OU focus sash users still get ruined anyway ( weaville, alakazam, infernape, and a few more )
 
Willis said:
I never understood this mentality about Focus Sash being a "broken" item without SR in play. Think about SD Lucario. If you choose to run Focus Sash over Life Orb, you miss out on so many KOs its not funny. Same goes to things like CM Alakazam and Nasty Plot Azelf. You sacrifice power for a one turn survival followed by being slaughtered by a priority move (although in some cases the priority move will already slaughter you, but still).

If they uses Focus Sash, they are not using Leftovers, Life Orb, A berry, etc. That may put them at a disadvantage in most cases.
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You're going about this the wrong way. You don't need to KO if you have focus sash. Think about it:

You have a bulky pokemon in on a fast sweeper. You're perfectly willing to trade hits in this scenario, because the risk on switching another pokemon in who could counter 2 out of 3 moves is higher than just taking a strong hit and being rid of the threat (or perhaps your real counter is already dead). Instead, Focus Sash saves the day and you're still slower and will die next turn. As an added bonus, you might not even have a safe switch because you're low enough to be KOd by other moves now too.

Focus Sash breaks those type of counters. As we've seen in the lead pokemon battle, it also forces pretty much every fast pokemon to use it or lose out.

And we haven't even touched the fact that a Focus Sash user with no residual effects out there breaks just about every single sweep. That's real revenge killing for you - the type you can't predict.


Komodo said:
even if stealth rock is removed, non flying / leviating pokemon will still be damaged by spikes and toxic spikes, lots of OU focus sash users still get ruined anyway ( weaville, alakazam, infernape, and a few more )
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This is exactly the thing I was arguing against in the OP. You can't compare the other effects to Stealth Rock because they are not the same.

The argument has two parts:

First off, Stealth Rock hits everything that we're worried about carrying a Focus Sash. The other options are limited in what they do their damage to.

Second, Stealth Rock is learned by a huge variety of pokemon. Being forced to use the other options to counter Focus Sash means we have to rely on a very limited number of pokemon to counter that serious threat.
 
I don't think anything needs to be removed, i don't see anything broken, whether its Focus sashes or SR, spikes etc. It's simply how you play the game, if you have problems with Sash Sweepers then use SR and if you have problems with SR, Toxic spikes and spikes then use rapid spinners.

In my opinion getting rid any of them will just make the game limited, no reason to ban any of them at all.
 
You have a bulky pokemon in on a fast sweeper. You're perfectly willing to trade hits in this scenario, because the risk on switching another pokemon in who could counter 2 out of 3 moves is higher than just taking a strong hit and being rid of the threat (or perhaps your real counter is already dead). Instead, Focus Sash saves the day and you're still slower and will die next turn. As an added bonus, you might not even have a safe switch because you're low enough to be KOd by other moves now too.
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Well if your real counter is dead then thats your own fault; thats like saying you can't counter zapdos because your blissey is dead. Anyways, in the scenario you describe, if the sweeper can do serious damage to you, then they may well be able to KO if they had Life orb or Choice Band/Specs
 
Ok put it this way:

Infernape is out, and you switch to your Infernape counter, Starmie, to take the Close Combat.

Starmie retaliates with Surf, Infernape hangs on with the Focus Sash, and KOs Starmie with Grass Knot. After Infernape dies, you reveal a Gyarados. That method of eliminating the counter took no prediction or skill, just the use of a cheap item... and you guys want SR banned? pshhhhhhh
 
RaikouLover said:
Ok put it this way:

Infernape is out, and you switch to your Infernape counter, Starmie, to take the Close Combat.

Starmie retaliates with Surf, Infernape hangs on with the Focus Sash, and KOs Starmie with Grass Knot. After Infernape dies, you reveal a Gyarados. That method of eliminating the counter took no prediction or skill, just the use of a cheap item... and you guys want SR banned? pshhhhhhh
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This.

I really think Focus Sash would be broken without Stealth Rock (Not as many Pokemon learn Spikes/Toxic Spikes and there are Pokemon immune to them).
 
RaikouLover said:
Ok put it this way:

Infernape is out, and you switch to your Infernape counter, Starmie, to take the Close Combat.

Starmie retaliates with Surf, Infernape hangs on with the Focus Sash, and KOs Starmie with Grass Knot. After Infernape dies, you reveal a Gyarados. That method of eliminating the counter took no prediction or skill, just the use of a cheap item... and you guys want SR banned? pshhhhhhh
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I pretty much agree here. The main reason why I dont want SR to be banned is Focus Sash. And, also, I dont find satisfying to create a "Focus Sash" clause in order to keep balance. All this concern, only to make some 2-4X Rock Weak pokemon usable? (And if you think I simply dont love them, look at my avatar)

Maybe, only a week or 2 ago I could still have been able to agree with a test, but after seeing how rampant the hatred has run on the Skymin vote overshadowing any competitive reasoning, I dont have any more trust into this sort of system. Indeed, I fear that, should SR be tested, the hatred of many a player will outcome everything else.
 
Thinks that can take out Sash even Stealth Rock gets banned:
Tyranitar (Sand Stream)
Hippowdon (Sand Stream)
Abomasnow (Snow Warning)
Sandstorm
Hail
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Burn
Poison
ExtremeSpeed
Bullet Punch
Ice Shard
Vacuum Wave
Mach Punch
Quick Attack
Sucker Punch
Knock Off
Or just simply kill off that last HP...
 
Most of those "counters" usually require very specific Pokemon (not many pokemon learn (Toxic) Spikes)/teams (Abomasnow), are not fool-proof ((Hail, Sandstorm, Spikes, Toxic Spikes), a sacrifice (priority moves), or are flat-out retarded (Knock Off). Status doesn't always help because you still give the opponent time to set up a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot etc.

Stealth Rock is fool-proof and lots of (good) Pokemon learn it, so you don't have to use the same pokemon every time to deal with Focus Sash.
 
1059860 said:
Thinks that can take out Sash even Stealth Rock gets banned:
Tyranitar (Sand Stream)
Hippowdon (Sand Stream)
Abomasnow (Snow Warning)
Sandstorm
Hail

Weather is not an answer since it cant be suited to any team. It greatly limits the choice and so it cant be counted. You play a SS team to play a strategy, not to counter something.

Spikes
Toxic Spikes

Flying and Levitating pokes are unaffected.

Burn
Poison

Using such status ailments against an Alakazam or an Infernape is foolish. You simply lose the same turn you would lose to break the sash and so you are screwed anyway

ExtremeSpeed
Bullet Punch
Ice Shard
Vacuum Wave
Mach Punch
Quick Attack
Sucker Punch

Focus sashers are not broken sweepers. They are broken revenge killers. Or are you saying me that every sweeper should carry a priority move to be effective?

Knock Off

Same thing as status ailments above.

Or just simply kill off that last HP...

Or maybe they have already revenge killed your counter to their sweeper...
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These argumentations dont prove anything. Focus Sash make revenge killing broken. Just think to how foolproof of a revengekiller would be Sash Dugtrio against lots of pokemon like Heatran and Tyranitar.
 
Yeah but who's team consist of only a Starmie that can take on both Infernape and Gyarados-it's not even that great of a counter to just one, let alone both. Yes, you can say that about most pokemon; there is not really one true counter to all sets, which is the point. You should have a set of pokemon that can collectively counter a single pokemon.

Aside from that, focus sash means that you're effectively reducing the number of pokemon you can switch in at anytime if you don't want to waste your item. How many times have you gone through a battle without switching pokemon at all? Even the most frail sweepers-alakazam, gengar, porygonZ (off the physical side) with minimal hp/defense investment will survive one neutral unstab/NVE stabbed hit so focus sash isn't really neccessary. So unless the game fills up with deoxy-A, it's not that broken, especially since you do risk being ruined by sandstorm-but it's not needed.
 
Lest we forget pursuit, it can ruin a focus sash easily. But for the most part zarator is correct, attacking it is just as good as knock off or statusing. (except vs shedinja)

I got owned by a 6 focus sash team a few months ago on wi-fi. I didn't get a chance to put up stealth rock.. and I didn't have Ttar or abomasnow.

Bear in mind many sash users have types that protect them from weather, like focus sash'd weavile and lucario.

There are also some focus sash tyranitars for some reason. . . OH PS, did anyone see the warstory with 3 focus sash clefables with endeavor? What can be done about that? (besides check the species clause) Magic guard forces you to use traditional means.
 
Slobroking said:
Most of those "counters" usually require very specific Pokemon (not many pokemon learn (Toxic) Spikes)/teams (Abomasnow), are not fool-proof ((Hail, Sandstorm, Spikes, Toxic Spikes), a sacrifice (priority moves), or are flat-out retarded (Knock Off). Status doesn't always help because you still give the opponent time to set up a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot etc.

Stealth Rock is fool-proof and lots of (good) Pokemon learn it, so you don't have to use the same pokemon every time to deal with Focus Sash.
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Priority is only a sacrifice if the opposing pokemon can OHKO your priority user. Metagross and Scizor are quite durable, as are Dusknoir and Spiritomb. Focus Sash means they're not using a boosting item, which means if they don't have a SE or very powerful STAB, they're probably not even 2HKOing much.

And you know what else can defeat Sashes: Multi-hit moves. Scizor and Ambipom can both use Double Hit, which, with Technician, has 105 overall power. That's higher than Return. Rock Blast is learned by a lot of Rock types, and has 25 power per hit, with an average damage output of 75. Scores a nice SE hit on flying sashers as well.

Oh, and of course, the ever-present Trick instantly removes your opponent's sash. A defensive tricker like Cressy or Bronzong can do wonders. Trick Lagging Tails for the most fun; Iron Balls and Macho Braces are good, too. Heck, Trick+recovery move can be even more fun. Steal your opponent's sash, get back to full health, and use the sash against them.
 
petrie911 said:
And you know what else can defeat Sashes: Multi-hit moves.
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Obviously you didn't test this out; apparently it doesn't work. I tried to come up with the ultimate counter to scyther and I tried rock blast for focus sash. It doesn't work. I asked in simple question thread too.
 
Here's another thing that beats Focus Sash users - simply being faster than them. Using a Choice Scarf on a mid-ranging Speed Pokemon can have the surprise factor necessary to deal with a fast Sash user (which most are).
 
Shenlong_88 said:
Yeah but who's team consist of only a Starmie that can take on both Infernape and Gyarados-it's not even that great of a counter to just one, let alone both. Yes, you can say that about most pokemon; there is not really one true counter to all sets, which is the point. You should have a set of pokemon that can collectively counter a single pokemon.

Aside from that, focus sash means that you're effectively reducing the number of pokemon you can switch in at anytime if you don't want to waste your item. How many times have you gone through a battle without switching pokemon at all? Even the most frail sweepers-alakazam, gengar, porygonZ (off the physical side) with minimal hp/defense investment will survive one neutral unstab/NVE stabbed hit so focus sash isn't really neccessary. So unless the game fills up with deoxy-A, it's not that broken, especially since you do risk being ruined by sandstorm-but it's not needed.
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On the flip side, you don't have to switch in that often if you're using focus sashes in the first place. In fact, you want most of your pokemon to go down fighting - they're generally going to be diverse attackers who can 2hko most things anyhow. There's something to be said for having pokemon that can switch in in the current metagame, but with focus sash involved, it's not the same monster.

There is a flip side to your argument on the Starmie-Infernape example too (which wasn't the best example ever in the first place). While you want to have multiple pokemon to counter a certain threat, you also have to cover multiple threats with each pokemon, which endagers them to the same degree.


Captain Falcon said:
Well if your real counter is dead then thats your own fault; thats like saying you can't counter zapdos because your blissey is dead. Anyways, in the scenario you describe, if the sweeper can do serious damage to you, then they may well be able to KO if they had Life orb or Choice Band/Specs
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This is incredibly wrong, though.

Not everything has a 'real' counter. If one pokemon carrying a sash ends up killing a pokemon that should have dealt with it just fine, how can you make sure you have a counter for the next pokemon that comes in carrying a sash?

In my scenario, the sweeper is doing serious damage. Damage that equates to 2hko at whatever current health the bulky pokemon is at. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that a 2hko is often a long cry from a OHKO - a distance that life orb and choice items won't make up for (and that's not even mentioning the actual downsides of those items).
 
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