Lower Tiers RBY UU Suspect Test Community Pulse

2. Upcoming VR should be here before any tours bar the spotlight, anyway, and that may affect the tier to a way bigger degree; how do people feel about C+, for those who have played both regular UU and C+?
c+>ptless uu(altpl)>>>current uu
the fact fast mons arent used less (they are, but not by a huge amount. you cant pretend there is literally 0 change) isn't the same as saying banning pt improves nothing. id rather play a meta with fast mons and no wrap than fast mons and wrap. also altpl has seen a marked increase in slow mons, mostly the slow waters, and at the end of the day it's an improvement on the basis its not a meta largely dependent on wrap "mindgames" regardless of whether kad/dug/pers usage drops.
I think waiting for the OU VR results makes some sense, but a supermajority also favors banning Wrap for being uncompetitive
first ill address the thing this is actually saying then ramble:
the fact a supermajority, in this meta, desires a wrap suspect means it should happen. how future metagames pan out shouldn't be a factor when in the present people want action.

the only reason i see to wait for ou vr to conclude is because of the handful of people saying pt should only be banned if a c+-like meta becomes reality. i dont like this reasoning at all and also suspect it's just a small minority anyway. we have the data here where 55% say to ban all pt and more spread out votes which all at least agree the main problematic move, wrap, should be banned. im pretty content if just wrap is banned despite wanting it all gone.

if you vote to not ban wrap because you want to actually make lap/hyp/bro/whatever else meta "official" before taking action, you completely lack any foresight.
i still believe a meta where nothing drops from ou (very very unlikely) but we ban pt and unban the UUBLs is still a serious improvement. lapras and hypno still offer some stability to a tier lacking any, even if the lack of bro may still make the meta still a little too lopsided into aggression, the alternative of unbanning nothing and keeping wrap solves literally nothing. for this reason i also believe should wrap be banned we should instantly unban the UUBLs and play the spotlight with it, soon after spotlight ends, OU should be complete its vr and we can allow drops as well.

it makes no sense really to have your vote down to whether or not slowbro is legal when we can improve the tier with or without it.
banning wrap is simply an inevitability if we want a healthy meta whether that's through unbanning things or banning things (kang,pers,dodo,kad,dug,nite,etc,etc). wrap's healthiness does not depend on slowbro, do you seriously believe the only options are no wrap+slowbro or keep wrap and uubls banned, and tier from there? you cant ban anything fast or tent instantly becomes too much, and banning all the slow hard hitting stuff just pushes the tier more towards fast mons. tiering with wrap is a lose lose regardless of what is targeted. to improve from here wrap needs to go. (banning tent and maybe nite is technically an option to keep wrap, though)

that said, i think altpl's meta is still an improvement to current uu so for me wrap/pt's fate isn't dependent on anything related to the UUBLs or OU drops.

as a said note im
Edit: Oh yeah here's the comments from the end of the survey
im genuinely quitting uu if wrap or at least tent stay legal


I'm open to whatever thoughts people have, though, and I hope people enjoy the data.
can we just do a ranked choice vote between wrap/all pt/no action or what they did for tera and vote action/no action then vote between ban wrap or all pt (even if you voted no action, you vote your preference in the case action wins)
ex:

No action

Ban Wrap
Ban all PT
(if no action wins, nothing happens. if action wins, count up votes on the second part, majority wins for what action is taken)

only other thing i wanna say is how to handle APT needs to be decided if only wrap is banned and fire spin is kept
unban it
 
can we just do a ranked choice vote between wrap/all pt/no action or what they did for tera and vote action/no action then vote between ban wrap or all pt (even if you voted no action, you vote your preference in the case action wins)
ex:

No action

Ban Wrap
Ban all PT
(if no action wins, nothing happens. if action wins, count up votes on the second part, majority wins for what action is taken)
This seems pretty reasonable yes, main thing I don't understand is then if you wanted no action why would you ever not vote "ban Wrap" to cause as little change as possible? And if you want Wrap banned but super disagree with banning all PT, I can also see that resulting in a very skewed vote because someone might prefer "no action" to ban all.
 
This seems pretty reasonable yes, main thing I don't understand is then if you wanted no action why would you ever not vote "ban Wrap" to cause as little change as possible?
this is likely what will happen and i dont see the issue
And if you want Wrap banned but super disagree with banning all PT, I can also see that resulting in a very skewed vote because someone might prefer "no action" to ban all.
i only included the 2nd option since the main issue is still just wrap but if you want to account for the few 1. wrap 2. no action 3. all pt moves just a regular ranked choice vote is fine
edit:
option 2 also prevents strategic voting better (ie, being pro-wrap but voting order 1. no ban 2. all pt 3. ban wrap if you predict ban wrap to be ahead of all pt, or 1. ban all pt 2. no action 3. ban wrap in the case where you are very pro all pt ban, these votes are somewhat nonsensical at face value but could shift things around to increase the chance of your #1 option pulling ahead)
 
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Personally I think C+ > Normal UU >>>> PTless Normal UU. My one issue with C+ is that it 99.9% likely won't happen (Jolt specifically) and the idea of LT players somehow deciding what the cutoff of what's OU and what's not to make the meta "better" as has been entertained is frankly a joke. Fwiw I don't think C+ is that good either it's just the best of a very bad bunch. It's extremely underdeveloped as well so as to say if it's good or not will only be left up for time to tell. And unfortunately I don't think C+ has that time as by the time this one tour ends the OU VR will have happened and we will be stuck with current UU and C+ will be dsad in the water in my opinion, likely with Slowbro and Victreebel in my opinion, but not with Jolteon though, which would be a very very different tier from what C+ currently is as Jolt defines the builder (in a good way).
 
the idea of LT players somehow deciding what the cutoff of what's OU and what's not to make the meta "better" as has been entertained is frankly a joke.
I really wish you would stop repeating this after you have been told you are wrong like 3 separate times, please make your arguments without repeating something you know is false to try to reinforce it
 
In that case I will talk to some people and see about going fuck it we ball on this, and prob do another survey after the C+ tour on people's feelings about it
The only thing I have to work of for my "known false assumption" is this. Which I have no info on other than you want the ball to roll on "OU players not caring whete the cutoff is"
 
The only thing I have to work of for my "known false assumption" is this. Which I have no info on other than you want the ball to roll on "OU players not caring whete the cutoff is"
You brought it up in discord multiple times and were corrected and you continue pretending that that didn't happen, lol
 
You brought it up in discord multiple times and were corrected and you continue pretending that that didn't happen, lol
I got and still have no info other than "that's wrong", if it is wrong I'd like to hear what exactly what you meant by rolling the ball on what Amaranth said
 
As stated repeatedly to you UU will not be setting the cutoff for OU, lol, I spoke to OU council about the cutoff process for next VR and it looks promising, but you made an assumption and continue to insist on it no matter how many times it gets corrected
 
jolteon will very likely drop
slowbro will almost certainly drop

jolteon failing to drop should not invalidate any of:
unbanning UUBLs and allowing new drops (this is not technically the same as c+ becoming real, but framing it as "jolt wont drop so c+ wont become real" only invalidates this idea altogether)
banning wrap/pt
doing both
 
Conclusions/Personal Thoughts
Ultimately, all of the above seems to point toward acting on PT, but doesn't necessarily point on a clear direction. Most voters seem to at least support a Wrap ban, with 8/12 supporting some level of banning PT moves, but we also have potential upcoming drops affecting the tier heavily, so I think it'd be best to get some thoughts on whether people think it'd be best to:
1. move forward with a suspect right now
2. wait for potential tiering changes, test those with PT, evaluate potentially banning PT
3. do something else like unbanning UUBLs immediately or during the yearly ladder rotation
Out of these three options I think the second is probably the option I'd go for.

As Amaranth and others have said, the main issue with the tier is the lack of defensive presences in the builder, with the likely dropping of Slowbro and potentially re-introducing Articuno, Lapras, and Hypno (despite my concerns about Lapras and Hypno) then we will get a lot more answers to the extremely overbearing offensive threats that are currently running rampant in the tier — and we also might get another extremely strong Pokemon above the 100 base speed threshold in Jolteon, which (while likely overbearing) would also help against Tentacruel.

There is also very little (if any) downside to this since there aren't any big tournaments between now and when OU does it's VR again. If there was a lot of big tournaments between now and then maybe I'd be less in favour of this option, but that isn't the case which makes this point moot.

Normally I'd be against tiering based on a future metagame, but when (potentially) massive tiering changes are very likely to happen soon which would massively help us deal with the litany of offensive threats in the tier (which is the main problem people have with UU currently), with barely anything happening in the meantime while we wait for OU, then I don't see the downside in this option.

4. Whether we consider PT as uncompetitive or specific things like Wrap Tent as "broken" heavily influences what action should look like anyway, and some people flat out do not believe it's uncompetitive, use other definitions that don't align with the Smogon definition, simply do not care about uncompetitiveness as a concept, or conflate action vs broken elements with action against uncompetitive elements even though they look different.
I think this a very important point that we need to consider when discussing whether something is uncompetitive or not. In general, while we agree on a generally rough idea of what an uncompetitive element in the tier is, when it comes to the specifics then there is a lot of disagreement about it. For me personally, I stick pretty closely to the tiering policy document's guidelines around how skill is defined (which includes prediction), and therefore I don't see Wrap making the game very prediction-centric to be something uncompetitive — however other players argue that the very prediction-centric nature of Wrap is uncompetitive — on the grounds that players can't predict switches very consistently and that either side could just use a random number generator to choose their move, making the outcome completely random. This fundamental disconnect is I think a large part of why both sides can't agree on whether they think Wrap counts as uncompetitive or not — we're operating under different definitions of what uncompetitive means, which makes either side's position on the issue completely unintelligible to the other, making it hard for us to have productive discussion.

(Note: The bolded text wasn't intended for me to throw shade at anyone, I'm just trying to make it easier for people to see the hyperlink)

I think waiting for the OU VR results makes some sense, but a supermajority also favors banning Wrap for being uncompetitive, which I'm not convinced somehow changes by dropping in a bunch of slow near-mandatory mons to the tier, potentially (Jolteon is a different story, maybe, but like... we have faster mons than Tent that have Twave already and how's that going?). I think regardless, PT creates some degree of bullshit in teambuilding and play where you have to live in this constant state of fear of one paraslam or crit on your fast frail mon enabling Tentacruel to just take over the entire game, even if Wrap-less UU right now still involves lots of fast mons hitting each other and crits being big swings. The disagreement between me and anti-ban people mostly seems to be if the degree of bullshit it imposes is "too much," which is subjective, but my personal read of it is that it's too big of an influence, especially when playing C+ and finding it infinitely better.
At the same time however, you could argue that dropping some slower but very bulky mons to the tier, could allow teams to reduce the risk that their fast-frail Pokemon has to risk getting crit or eat a paraslam — the main reason people have to take those risks currently is because of how few bulky Pokemon there are in UU currently which would change with the potential additions of Slowbro (and potentially Hypno/Lapras). That would in itself greatly help with the problems that people have with Wrap.

I do find the idea that there was a vocal minority to ban PT a bit funny when the opposite is borne out in the survey - the loud minority of people are the ones coming out in opposition to a ban in this thread, and I'm glad they spoke up even if I don't agree with the points. I did consider a lot of them and I think Amaranth has the most convincing arguments by far, though I do have to say, I don't find the "crits are more variance than PT" argument particularly convincing because we don't have the power to ban a mechanic from the game, but Wrap is firmly in our control and I don't believe that just because there's big sources of uncontrollable variance that we should ignore smaller ones that also induce big builder and play restrictions and flat-out remove most of a player's options per turn, reducing the game to "stay/switch" until you win the mindgame (or win it enough random number of times in a row, in the case of just going to something faster and waiting + having to not get owned by them switching to something that beats you).
I don't think we have to assume that some forms of variance aren't able to be dealt with from tiering action. A lot of the Pokemon that are seen as extremely volatile (Dugtrio, Kangaskhan, Dodrio) are some of the most volatile Pokemon in the tier by far with their stupid high crit-rates ontop of their very strong STAB-moves (which in the case of Body Slam, also has a 30% chance to paralyze it's target). We could absolutely remove some of these Pokemon to try and reduce the amount of variance in the tier (incase nothing happens with the OU VR) which could also help greatly with improving the viability of the bulkier Pokemon we do currently have — which mainly are good at taking Special attacks and don't take Physical attacks very well.

Also, it might just be me personally, but I don't think the builder or in-game restrictions that Wrap imposes are that important, as others have already mentioned, you'd be running the Pokemon that answer Tentacruel regardless of it has Wrap or not and you'd want to avoid taking paralysis on those Pokemon in either case, those Pokemon are just really good — but even if we ignore that — I just don't think that it being centralizing matters that much as long as both players still have strategic agency both in the builder and in-game; even if it takes a bunch of turns or the options both players have are limited, they outcome of that interaction is still primarily dependent on the decisions made by both players, which is the main thing I care about.
 
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