Implemented RBY UU Hypno + Lapras Suspect Test

[phoopes]

In the 6+ months since the ban on sleep, RBY UU has seen a bunch of play, both in casual and tournament settings. While many thought the tier would settle nicely after the banning of the volatile sleep status, this has not really been the case. Unlike the sleep status and Agility + Partial Trapping, this time it has been individual Pokemon that the community has seen as problematic. Namely, Hypno and Lapras have been decried as broken and overcentralizing by much of the RBY UU playerbase. Thus, the creation of a suspect test for both Hypno and Lapras has been deemed necessary by the RBY UU Council. There will be a mirror post in the RBY forum for those without Policy Review access, but if you would like to apply for posting access to this thread you can do so here.

Frankly, suspect testing one of both of these Pokemon has been a long time coming, but I'll briefly describe why each of them are being suspect tested now.

Hypno:
Hypno has long been a staple of the tier and has remained as such, even despite the ban on Sleep. It is a defensive powerhouse in a tier that is dominated by many offensive threats. Due to this, you might think that Hypno would be a beneficial Pokemon to have in the tier, one that could put a stop to every team being a hyper offensive menace. In practice, however, with the way that the meta has developed, Hypno is most often relegated to the lead slot, simply because there is not much of anything that beats it one-on-one without a little bit of luck. While alternate leads such as Golem and Dodrio have been explored, Hypno is considered by many as the only real viable pick. Thus, the start of a lot of RBY UU matches comes down to which player gets luckier in the Hypno mirror, essentially turning the game into a five-on-five battle most of the time. This is seen as unhealthy by many, which is where the calls to ban Hypno have come from.

Lapras:
Much like Hypno, Lapras is a staple on every viable RBY UU team, seeing near-100% usage in matches both casual and competitive. Often times, the best answer to an opponent's Lapras is one's own Lapras, again forcing a mirror match that makes it come down to the luckier player. This is especially true for Lapras that run Confuse Ray, a move that is not inherently broken but adds an added luck factor. While there is some counterplay to Lapras, as seen in the rise of Electric-types in the Lapras meta, none of them are true counters, being unable to switch into Lapras most of the time and still losing to Lapras in one-on-one scenarios a decent amount of the time. While the RBY UU Council justly has given Lapras a fair chance in the tier after its drop from OU, even without a Sleep-inducing move Lapras has proven itself as the most dominant Pokemon in the tier, along with Hypno. Due to this overcentralization of the metagame, many have saught to ban Lapras from RBY UU as well.

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With these reasons in mind, the RBY UU Council has decided to suspect test both Lapras and Hypno concurrently, using a ranked choice method for voting. What this means is that each voter will rank their preference of what to ban or not ban from the following four options:

1. Ban Hypno and Lapras
2. Ban Hypno
3. Ban Lapras
4. Ban neither

Thus, a sample vote might be:

4
1
3
2

Once the votes are in, we will first eliminate the option with the least 1st place votes. Those who had the eliminated option as their top choice will then have their votes moved to their next choice. This process will continue until we only have 2 options left, and the one with the most votes will be chosen. In the event of a tie between the final 2 options, the option with the most 1st place votes will be chosen. If those are also tied, then the number of 2nd place votes will decide and so on.

With that said, the following requirements will determine the voting pool:

• Placed in the Top 4 of UU Open I
• Played in 3 games and won at least 1 in UUSD III
• Played in 3 games and won at least 1 in RBY PL III
• Went 3-1 or better in RoA Olympics VII
• Placed in the Top 2 of the RBY UU Spotlight Tour
• Placed in the Top 4 of the RBY UU Lower Tier Circuit Tour
• Played in 3 games and won at least 1 in ALT PL I
• Played in 3 games and won at least 1 in UUFPL III

With these requirements, the following 23 players qualify so far:

• AM (UUSD III)
• chub (UUFPL III)
• Ctown6 (UU Open I)
• emma (UUSD III)
• Fc (UUFPL III)
• FriendOfMrGolem120 (RoA Olympics VII)
• Genesis7 (RoA Olympics VII)
• Ice Yazu (UU Open I, RBY PL III, LTC Tour, ALT PL I, UUFPL III)
• juoean (UUSD III, Spotlight)
• justdrew (RoA Olympics VII)
• Kaz (RBY PL III)
• kjdaas (UU Open I)
• Koalacance (RBY PL III)
• Melbelle (UUFPL III)
• Nicole7735 (UUFPL III)
• phoopes (LTC Tour)
• pokemonisfun (ALT PL I)
• Sabelette (UUFPL III)
• Shellnuts (UUSD III, RBY PL III, LTC Tour, ALT PL I)
• stunner047 (UUSD III, Spotlight, RoA Olympics VII)
• Torchic (UUSD III, RoA Olympics VII)
• Tree69420 (LTC Tour)
• Unowndragon (UU Open I, UUSD III, RBY PL III, ALT PL I, UUFPL III)
• Volk (ALT PL I)

Note: This thread will be open for two weeks for discussion before voting. With UUFPL III still ongoing, more players may qualify within the next two weeks depending on who plays/wins. If you make qualifications in that time, I will try to keep track, but please let me know as well. After the discussion period is over, a blind voting thread will be made for qualifying players to cast their votes. Blind voting with thus open on May 7th, 2023.

Thanks for reading, and happy discussing!

 

[Sabelette]

I’m waffling between ban both and just banning Hypno. While both are centralizing, Lapras has more counterplay thanks to having an actual type weakness, and it gets forced to predict a lot to avoid letting in dangerous things, whereas Hypno can basically click Psychic all day without worrying about the switch. Thunder Wave is also pretty broken when nothing can seriously 1v1 you. Lapras is still probably too centralizing and I’ll likely vote to ban both.

IMO the worst possible outcome would be banning Lapras and keeping Hypno. Let’s not go back to a status quo that people already didn’t like. I don’t think there’s a serious argument for keeping Hypno and most arguments made have been more about preservation than balance. It doesn’t check Kadabra because it’s always trading in the lead, so no, Kadabra doesn’t get stronger with it gone. If anything Kad has more issues with more team slots opened up to actually check it. Hypno doesn’t have counters - every lead has a bad winrate against Hypno and relies on luck to beat it, because Twave + Psychic is ~50% odds to get some bonus effect every turn. The fact people are anti-leading Golem and opting to just boom it immediately (because a drop or crit means Hypno 2HKOes it, you can’t really risk this) shows how absurdly problematic this mon is.

TLDR absolutely ban Hypno, probably ban Lapras

 

[AJ]

Speaking as the least experience RBY player in this thread:

I'm currently managing UUFPL right now and want to cite the statistics on each Pokemon.

I only need to use one week's worth of usage stats because Hypno and Lapras have been used, literally, on 100% of UUFPL teams this entire tour. Every single RBY UU team in this tour has had both a Hypno and a Lapras on them.

Lapras, for me, is a no brainer ban. It completely took over the tier, dominating usage, invalidating formerly good Pokemon like Tentacruel and Articuno while also making Dewgong unviable as Lapras is just Dewgong on crack. I feel like the community will probably outright ban Lapras so I won't warrant a lot of discussion to it.

Hypno is a difficult decision. Lead Hypno has pretty much taken over the metagame and there aren't many midgame Hypno's left. Hypno is similar to ADV UU Kangaskhan in that it's kind of required to be on every team. Hypno isn't objectively broken in the sense that most Pokemon are. It's more so making the tier boring, uncompetitive, and requiring (as Phoopes said) a luck-based Hypno trade at the beginning of the game. The only reason Hypno should be banned is if the tier will become over all healthier afterwards. I don't quite have the RBY UU experience to say so I welcome people to voice their opinions. If the tier will function well in Hypno's absence, I'm in support of banning.

 

[phoopes]

Historically, I've been very anti-ban in this tier. Not so anymore. I will most likely be voting:

1. Ban both
2. Ban Hypno
3. Ban Lapras
4. Ban neither

Despite its longevity in the tier, I actually feel like Hypno is a bigger problem than Lapras. The lead metagame is pretty much just nonexistent at this point because all it is is a Hypno mirror and whoever gets luckier first wins. There's hardly any strategy to it at all and it's just very unfun. To go to the Smogon tiering framework, I feel like it is very centralizing and unhealthy, because using anything other than Hypno lead is just unoptimal IMO. Sure, you could go for something else and potentially get lucky but I feel like that's just asking for playing from behind. Games are essentially five on five from the jump most of the time from my experience. Hypno has to go.

I don't have as compelling of an argument for banning Lapras tbh, but while I appreciate that Lapras was given a fair shot in the tier, I think as the meta has developed we've proven that it's too overcentralizing as well. Every team uses a Lapras and for good reason. It just hits too hard and takes hits too well not to use it. However, it's not like its 100% usage has created interesting interactions and skillful play like Tentacruel did in "old UU." Instead, Lapras really shrunk the tier and made it much less diverse. While sure, Electric-types got better, soooo many Pokemon don't see the light of day anymore because of it and I think we're worse off because of it. Aerodactyl, Articuno, Dewgong, Omastar, Tangela, Vaporeon, Vensaur, and Victreebel are all pretty much goners. This in exchange for making Electabuzz, Electrode, Magneton, and Raichu better? Not a good trade-off IMO. Invalidating so many other Pokemon (many of which would be defensive centerpieces) really sucks, so I think Lapras should get the boot as well.

Hopefully after a ban on both of these Pokemon we see a more diverse lead metagame, and a more diverse metagame in general. As it stands, games start off as 5 vs. 5 and from there there's not a lot of creativity to be had in the builder like there used to be. With Hypno and Lapras gone, hopefully this changes for the better.

 

[Fc]

1. Ban Hypno
2. Ban Neither
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3. Ban Both
4. Ban Lapras

I haven't played this tier for too long but have done my best to build almost every team I used in uufpl and understand the tier, and this is generally how I see things among these options. The lead metagame is just kinda dull, I don't think Hypno is broken necessarily but it removes a lot of interactions and teambuilding options that could otherwise exist (unless hypothetically the new lead metagame is just another dominant mon). It also just comes down to luck a lot of the time, I kinda flip a coin if I'm clicking Psychic, Stoss, or Counter, and hoping I get more twave paras than my opponent. Hypno typically doesn't make it past the lead regardless tho, I've had it click extra moves I think once just bc I got lucky in the para war and clicked Rest. There's essentially no skill in the lead metagame in this tier ever aside from maybe adapting to what moves your opponent will click with Hypno, but that's pretty much a guess if they change things up or don't.

Lapras feels broken in the sense that it can do everything, but I feel like it's not a game winning force in the same way something like Wrap Tentacruel or Persian is. It can get maybe 2 kills, but it's slow and often has to trade with the opposing Lapras since it's so tanky. Not to mention to use that bulk you'll likely be eating Body Slams, which comes at a natural risk. I compare it to something like Dragonite with the bulk and strong moves, but it doesn't have Wrap so I prefer what it does tbh (ban Wrap). I put a line between options 2 and 3 bc I'd definitely like to see Lapras stay, at least for now, because I think it's fine now and in a Hypno-less metagame it should get its shot to stick around with things changing up if Hypno is banned.

Lapras:
Much like Hypno, Lapras is a staple on every viable RBY UU team, seeing near-100% usage in matches both casual and competitive. Often times, the best answer to an opponent's Lapras is one's own Lapras, again forcing a mirror match that makes it come down to the luckier player. This is especially true for Lapras that run Confuse Ray, a move that is not inherently broken but adds an added luck factor.

From the OP, in my opinion I think this is a little off in terms of how the real situations usually play out. Crits do completely change this 1v1 but it's like that for most Pokemon, and Lapras is slow so that's unlikely. I liken it to something like Tauros wars, where you just try and get as much damage as possible or get the speed tie win. Both Pokemon will end up chipped so it's not the end of the world if you lose it. For most teams I find that you should be fine entering the Tbolt war to weaken Lapras since it checks a lot of stuff, and ideally want something in the back that can take a hit or two if you need to get your Lapras out of the 1v1 but still force some damage. Confuse Ray isn't used too much in the 1v1 either, since risking those luck rolls instead of just going for tbolts is super risky if Lapras breaks through and survives at a high health. Ofc a 1v1 will always come down to luck, but I think it's a reasonable situation and Lapras doesn't get too many luck chances outside of this since clicking Body Slam is a commitment and freeze chance is low, and you don't lose the game for losing the war.

Overall this tier is kinda funny but in the not optimal way, Hypno wars on lead probably gotta go somehow, but I think Lapras is fine for now. S tier staple that holds teams together vs a lot of the offensive stuff but I think it's beatable and doesn't bring too much negative to the tier. Sure a few mons are less common now, but a lot are just because Lapras took their job, making the role more consistent, or the grass mons who kinda flop anyway without Sleep but struggle now anyway. I think they're still a bit viable but not much, so if that's something people value I could see it, but it's a few Pokemon that still can be used in exchange for a new staple in the tier that holds things together.

 

[Tree69420]

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Please submit the post you intend to make.
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I think its hard to say hypno is balanced when the literal only mons that can 1v1 it easily lose to it with a single crit or drop or miss or a couple full paras
since it so often trades itself in the lead slot, it also enables more hyperoffensive games because you basically only have 5 pokemon to handle the opponents threats

lapras is obviously a top mon but it has a lot of counterplay, almost every used mon beats it and those who dont normally can beat it with a single crit
it could still easily be regarded as banworthy but i dont feel it quite hits that line

lap could easily be broken in a meta without hypno but we can just suspect it then if it is

 

[Sabelette]

Thought it over, here's what I'm planning to go with:

1. Ban Hypno and Lapras
2. Ban Hypno
3. Ban neither
4. Ban Lapras

I think in an ideal world I'd give Lap a bit of time in a Hypnoless meta since fitting checks would be far easier, but I can't do another year of waiting to retest this. I'd rather see a novelty tour or 3 where we legalize Lap and see if that meta's any good (and if it is we can retest a long time down the line) than chance yet another ultra-centralized "whoever gets more crits and FPs will win" meta

 

[phoopes]

After voting, Hypno and Lapras are both banned!

Thank you to all for your participation.