OU RBY OU Viability Rankings

[marcoasd]

is definitely number one and it shouldn't be argued anymore really: it wins games, it revenge kills and pressures sleeping stuff. Its moves are inevitable.

is better than Chansey because Chansey's role can somewhat be replaced while on the other hand there's no backup for Snorlax.
Trading Snorlax for Chansey (Selfdestruct) often results in the owner of Snorlax losing the game. A whole lot of RBY games and metagame trends revolve around Snorlax's moveset and this tells a lot.
However Snorlax needs Rest to switch into opposing Snorlax and to get rid of paralysis, at that point something is going to resist its attacks. Not only that, Rest relies largely on your opponent using Chansey or at least on wide paralysis support. I wouldn't be surprised to see Amnesialax becoming more popular, even with greedy movesets that don't include Rest.

Sing Chansey is common but that moveset is extremely limited. Starmie or Jynx spamming Ice moves against Sing Chansey are a decent counterplay and even leaving that out of the equation Sing Chansey feels good only when used as the sleep fodder. It can't even touch pokemon it is meant to counter and I don't think Seismic Toss can fix this. Chansey is passive, even BeamBolt is. Reflect helps a lot against Snorlax but Chansey won't earn KOs anyway. Chansey is versatile but dropping it will make your opponent's Restlax way less scary.
Starmie (and possibly Alakazam) are now looking even better than Chansey at what it used to do (spreading paralysis and stalling), so is it time for Chansey to leave the S club? I still like the idea of a sleeper with a recovery move and Ice Beam, but we'll find out.

does all of the dirty work but dealing with Electric Types and Gengar. Cloyster is an important piece of the metagame and so are Exeggutor, Rhydon and Slowbro.
Starmie is the most dangerous pokemon in the game after Chansey is gone, it can tank Body Slams and pressure Snorlax with Surf. Thunderbolt Chansey isn't common.
Surf Starmie can beat Alakazam too. Unfortunately, Starmie + Chansey means you won't be able to pressure Chansey all that much, especially if your Snorlax has a moveset that your opponent can wall; this gets even worse if you are using Exeggutor too.
Starmie is a better lead than Alakazam because it has access to ice moves and better defense, it also has the best win rate among leads.
If we look at stats, back Starmie isn't doing well but I think that Starmie is just getting splashed too often on too many teams (replacing Exeggutor),
including bad builds. Or at very least builds that aren't well positioned right now.
Starmie isn't mandatory because it doesn't fit perfectly each and every single team, but every time you'll decide not to use it and you'll lose the game it will leave yourself questioning your decisions.

has the highest win rate in RBY Invitational 3, that says a lot. My take is that Exeggutor is the only A rank (or better) pokemon that really has room for a sleep move, at this point I like Stun Spore better than anything else even though I still like the greedy Rest button and Double Edge is still ok. One could argue that Exeggutor should be back to S again (S5).
This is thanks to the good old tools: Sleep Powder, Psychic, Explosion.

I have never been a fan, it just doesn't pair well with Chansey and using back Zam in a S4 build feels like a trap.
Alakazam is just is a bad attacker (which is why we're not spamming Reflect) which you can't build a plan around, it's not going to sweep and most of the games where it creates some trouble it was thanks to RNG and/or setup. In both cases there are way easier to set up and more devastating threats available.
Sure, it can shine under certain circumstances, just like against CloyJolt builds (which aren't common right now) but that won't do.
Zam looks good in teams that don't use Chansey (or use it as a sleep fodder), or in S3 teams that don't want to add weaknesses to Zapdos (like lead, S3, Alakazam, Cloyster/Slowbro).
It still is a good lead but I don't like the fact that it can't spam Ice moves against Sing Chansey so you have to resort to going Egg turn 1 sometimes.
When it's in the back, Zam isn't as versatile as Starmie and it is demolished by Slowbro or by physical attacks.
Not only that, back Starmie has Surf and that makes para'd Alakazam vulnerable. Rhydon usually is a better switch into Gengar.
All in all it has flaws but you can live with them once you have them figured.

is great right now, and its win rate doesn't lie. It will always find something cool to do, even if you're not playing against electrics. Exeggutor's usage is still relatively low.
Snorlax's most dominating moves are Hyper Beam and Selfdestruct, which Rhydon takes no problem; not only that, he can answer Gengar when you are using monoLax.
Rhydon is extremely hard to switch into once Starmie is para'd and it will also 3hko Slowbro more often than not. Its critical hits are almost as good as Drill Horn, dealing with favourite targets monolax and Reflect Chansey.
OHKO on Jynx, Gengar Jolteon, Articuno, Moltres, can't be trolled by unstatused Chansey or Porygon (and Cloyster to some extent).
Rhydon doesn't beat RestLax and it makes your team weak to Jynx's lucky openings, Psychics and BeamBolt/Cloyster.
So, fitting Rhydon has always been a problem to me. In Invitational 3 Rhydon was used in almost 20 different builds! Starmie/Rhydon/S4 is still doing well (possibly with Sing Chansey as the lead/sleep fodder).
Jynx/Starmie/Rhydon beats Zapdos consistently and has a 50% win rate against teams without it.
Starmie/Rhydon/Cloyster/Sing Chansey performed well even though the sample was small; I don't like that team though. It's just too weak to Starmie, and if Chansey gets frozen it's in trouble.
I can't really fault you for putting Cloyster as your number 7 and Rhydon as number 8 even though I'm impressed with Rhydon (when things don't go extremely wrong) and you have to put some red lights for Zapdos sometimes.

is a reliable counter for Snorlax (only Hyper Beam sets are really dangerous) and this gives you the luxury of using PhysLax. Add Clamp and Explosion and this is enough to rank it this high.
Cloyster can be used in any archetype (classic stall or aggressive explosions/chanseyless) but not on any team. I like it as a stand-alone (lead + S4).
There are certain matchups where your opponent will have serious troubles getting rid of it and you have the emergency (Explosion) button for the rest.
Clamp takes out Substitutes for free; it works well against Reflect Chansey and Slowbro. Cloyster punishes rhydon+Egg cores and it can also switch into para'd Jynx. It also stops degenerated stuff like MonoIceLax. It's definitely a staple due to its ability to be both a defensive pivot and a late game threat. Thunderbolt Tauros and HB Snorlax are being used a lot already though.
These are the pokemon that Cloyster is meant to counter and they learn moves that can turn the tide against it.

is criminally underrated: turn 1 sleeps are a delight for it, Thunderbolt Chansey is rare, Selfdestruct is rare too. Jynx is common, Electric Types are struggling and many players don't use Exeggutor enough.
Victreebel is nowhere to be seen, so is Amnesialax. On top of that, Starmie's CH Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO so you can somewhat plan things including a worst case scenario that doesn't fully suck (the do nothing scenario).
Thunderbolt Tauros, meant for Cloyster, is the only bad note. Reflect Slowbro is so much better against Exeggutor and Snorlax, and it can 6-0 whole teams. Thunder Wave is still the more versatile option, useful after bad starts and it pairs so well with Amnesia (speed quartering).
Substitute makes sense too.

win rate is terrible right now. It happens in some tournaments during the course of the years.
Rhydon is doing great and some teams have just one member who is weak to Zapdos' attacks. Zapdos is comeback material, sure. It comes with a price though.
Picking Slowbro over Zapdos, or simply putting Zapdos at the bottom of the top 10, is quite controversial but I actually used Slowbro just as much or slightly more often than Zapdos so at least you know I genuinely believe it.

is 6th to 10th in usage but its win rate is around 45% in spite of being favored by the current trends, maybe it isn't being used properly (turn 1 decision to stay in or switch, builds).
It's the lead that will give you the turn 1 sleep you want so bad, even against anti-leads. Everything still comes down to whether you are able to use it as a sleep fodder or not.

is back as a lead to outspeed Jynx, but it has a better win rate when used in the back. It still relies on mindgames to work and it still struggles against Rhydon.
Gengar is a bore for ReflectHB Snorlax and Thunderbolt Tauros (that you really want to have when facing Cloyster).
I've never been a fan of Gengar but I get the idea that it can get more value with proper building and planning, I'm quite positive it still has major flaws though.

's role has somewhat disappeared because players have taken countermeasures to beat its partner (Cloyster) and due to Rhydon being just better.
Add Zapdos' performances (20% usage and 40%ish win rate) and it's easy to at least guess that Jolteon's place in OU is narrow right now.
Jolteon could be used as a lead, considering it's actually the only catch-all anti-lead: it can beat (Sing) Chansey or discourage it from its plan, and it obviously does great
against each and every one of Starmie, Jynx and Gengar. Will it be consistent enough, though? The fact that it has no room for both Rest and Pin Missile hurts.

Spoiler

If you want to do something different, playing dirty is an option.

This is a threat you can't run away from.

Legendary birds are barely seeing play and even in that case their win rate is horrible. That's un fortunate, because they bring something to the table.

has many problems and Cloyster somewhat took its place punishing some kind of opposition while also being more consistent.
Victreebel still gives you a different angle of attack, so I wouldn't rule it out completely and forever.

's damage output often is just a little too low, but it still walls Zapdos and Explosion saves the day.

Jack of all trades, master of none. Still okaish.

This is going to troll you sometimes.

LEADS

S:

has the highest win rate among all leads. It is just a great sleep absorber and it has moves to deal with all of the leads even though it can't carry all of them at the same time.
Psychic and Ice Beam is still great and it's ok against pretty much everything even though a bit too easy on Jynx.
A+:

is another solid pokemon which also has a positive win rate as a lead. It can't spam Ice moves against Sing Chansey though.
A-:

is the best sleeper lead in the game and it sees a lot of play. The key to winning with Jynx clearly is being able to use her as the sleep fodder. Jynx forces Thunder Wave like no other and if you mix your plays (stay in vs switch out on TWave) your opponent won't be able to make you play the game they want.
B+:

won't guarantee you the first sleep and it also requires some predictions to be used as the sleep fodder so I give Jynx the slight advantage.
B-:

Sing on turn one is better than Sing on turn 2, but this is true when you are playing against Starmie or Alakazam. Luckily, these two are very common. Facing Jynx is pretty bad and it's not uncommon; Chansey does better than Exeggutor though.
C:

is a better lead than Chansey only when you are playing against Chansey, which is extremely rare.
C:

just had a bad tournament when used in the back but it could be re-evaluated as an anti-lead.
It's quite frail but it is the only anti-lead that can pressure everything; unfortunately it needs Pin Missile to hit Exeggutor but you want Rest too.
C:

is actually the best anti-lead: Jynx is at risk of getting OHKO'd by a CH it and so is Gengar. The bad thing about this is that it's hard to find a backup revenge killer that won't make you miss him.


I think RBY OU is going to keep changing even though you can still show up with certain classic teams and be ok. Same pokemon, different movesets.

 

[marcoasd]

feels like for the most part you load zapdos weak teams and supplement it with a healthy amount of rhydon use.

Why would you delete that? Everything you wrote makes sense, especially that quote. It's not that liking one B ranked pokemon better than another means the world. Timing plays a major role, I sneaked in with Slowbro at proper time and got good matchups when using Zapdos most of the time in Invitational 3 and ultimately didn't even win the whole thing. I'm not a prophet and I doubt you'll ever see one.
This was my experience from like a month ago and I use a combination of win rates plus eye test, but as you said we can't see exactly what's next.
This is an extremely tricky time for the tier and the playerbase is great, SPL is going to be tough for everyone involved. Great time for spectators.

 

[KingOfTheZoogers]

While we are on VR's from people who aren't top players, here's mine I made mainly for fun and to have an opinion. I also intend to learn from what anybody haves to say regarding my takes on the meta. My TierMaker haves all the info you need to understand what my tiers mean.

Basically here is everything I believe is important to say.

The Top 3's order as Melbelle said have been talked about at nauseam. I don't think any good team will be without Chansey or Lax because they are so intergral for thier roles that not having them would present more restriction and general downsides than just running them.

Exeguttor mainly just haves an inferior late game than the other mons in top 6. It haves too many impressive qualities to not be top 6 though.

I might make another tier called B- for Jynx, Slowbro the Electrics and Gengar. I think Rhydon and Cloyster are still not perfect but are more consistant than most of the mons in B and have more to offer than Jynx.

This might be ignorance on my part but I don't know why people place the Swords Dancers D Tier. Because they don't have any unwinnable matchups and they aren't super luck reliant to do thier job, besides Pinsir that resides in C-. Them being next to Poliwrath for example which is very inconsistant doesn't make much sence to me. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of those statements.

Walled by Exeggutor, significantly weaker than Zapdos (both offensively and defensively), not actually great at walling Zapdos due to it taking more than negligible damage and relying on rest, unlike Rhydon who also does more than Jolteon on average in most matchups so it fails even at that niche. One of the few reasons to use it over Zapdos is that it naturally outspeeds everything else in the tier, the strongest argument you can give for it is that it puts Mie lead in an awkward spot but leading jJolteon has numerous drawbacks even if you get the matchup you want (which is just Starmie). Combination of being outclassed in most cases and just generally not being great even ignoring that is a very bad combination. fwiw i put it #14, just one spot away from #13.

Ok it wasn't just the number but also being next to Moltres. But you anwsered my question well. Jolteon is probably below Bro on my VR but I'm not 100% on quite a bit of stuff on it.

 

[Ortheore]

Js, Jolteon doesn't have to be walled by Egg. Although Rest is better, it does get PMissile which means it can at the very least accrue significant reasonable chip damage, and if it gets lucky it can deal devastating damage.

I disagree that it's bad at walling Zap, that's a role that it's perfectly capable of. Being exploitable while Resting is a valid criticism, but it's no more exploitable than Jynx, and I would argue that its offensive firepower can create openings to burn a Rest turn (e.g. forcing Chansey to heal), minimising the damage you take.

Lead Jolt is way more than just a Star lead fish, and is probably one of the more dangerous leads due to its potential to hax things to death, though that's undoubtedly inconsistent. Virtually any lead aside from Zam faces significant risk in that regard. The real issue with Jolt lead is that it's awkward against Chansey when it switches in- staying in for para sucks, but switching out into potential Sing also sucks

Jolt's also far better than Zap defensively imo- it can check all other electrics and bulky waters, while only really being weak to phys attackers, which lets it synergise with a lot of things. Zap is far more limited defensively because its typing leaves it with more weaknesses and imo it relies on its bulk to fuel its offensive potential, limiting its defensive utility. For me personally Zap is exclusively a tool of aggression, whereas Jolt isn't strictly forced into that role

So yeah, if you want an Electric check without exposing a weakness to waters, Jolt is great. I don't mean to deny that Zap is generally better, but I like Jolteon simply because I find it so easy to slap onto teams and have it be a threat

 

[KingOfTheZoogers]

Js, Jolteon doesn't have to be walled by Egg. Although Rest is better, it does get PMissile which means it can at the very least accrue significant chip damage, and if it gets lucky it can deal devastating damage.

I disagree that it's bad at walling Zap, that's a role that it's perfectly capable of. Being exploitable while Resting is a valid criticism, but it's no more exploitable than Jynx, and I would argue that its offensive firepower can create openings to burn a Rest turn (e.g. forcing Chansey to heal), minimising the damage you take.

Lead Jolt is way more than just a Star lead fish, and is probably one of the more dangerous leads due to its potential to hax things to death, though that's undoubtedly inconsistent. Virtually any lead aside from Zam faces significant risk in that regard. The real issue with Jolt lead is that it's awkward against Chansey- staying in for para sucks, but switching out into potential Sing also sucks

Jolt's also far better than Zap defensively imo- it can check all other electrics and bulky waters, while only really being weak to phys attackers, which lets it synergise with a lot of things. Zap is far more limited defensively because its typing leaves it with more weaknesses and imo it relies on its bulk to fuel its offensive potential, limiting its defensive utility. For me personally Zap is exclusively a tool of aggression, whereas Jolt isn't strictly forced into that role

So yeah, if you want an Electric check without exposing a weakness to waters, Jolt is great

Also Pin Missle isn't the best eggy checking tool the tier haves to offer but it can knock its HP down a peg.

If it hits more than 3 times or it crits the opposing team won't have that as a Jolteon check for much longer.

 

[Billybobman]

Hey, I've been gaining more experience with this meta. My opinion currently feels all over the place.
But I wanted to share it anyways. I feel like it's hard to tell what's really good or not. There's also the fear of being wrong and just agreeing with other's opinions which I did a little bit when making my current list.

List

S+: Tauros tier. Wall breaker, revenge killer, lead, sweeper. It is good at all four. Does not need to surprise to be good.
S: Can run multiple sets well which aids in surprising people. They are also very strong as well.
A: Psychics tier. Good at dealing damage, can wall or wall break and spread important status.
B+: Very good but have flaws.
B: Still good, but have flaws like being hard walled, countered, weak to status etc. hard to describe this tier.
C: Niche options, have flaws, but they can fulfill important roles
D+: Kinda just based on other tier lists I've looked at.
D: I don't really use these mons all that often, but I won't laugh if you try them
Don't Know: this is just due to lack of experience.

I don't mind being corrected.
Edit: I think I put raticate too high. It has a cool niche, but it's not consistent at all. Even less than Onix imo. It should probably be in D+ or below. (still looking into it)

 

[KingOfTheZoogers]

Hey, I've been gaining more experience with this meta. My opinion currently feels all over the place.
But I wanted to share it anyways. I feel like it's hard to tell what's really good or not. There's also the fear of being wrong and just agreeing with other's opinions which I did a little bit when making my current list.

List

View attachment 487693

S+: Tauros tier. Wall breaker, revenge killer, lead, sweeper. It is good at all four. Does not need to surprise to be good.
S: Can run multiple sets well which aids in surprising people. They are also very strong as well.
A: Psychics tier. Good at dealing damage, can wall or wall break and spread important status.
B+: Very good but have flaws.
B: Still good, but have flaws like being hard walled, countered, weak to status etc. hard to describe this tier.
C: Niche options, have flaws, but they can fulfill important roles
D+: Kinda just based on other tier lists I've looked at.
D: I don't really use these mons all that often, but I won't laugh if you try them
Don't Know: this is just due to lack of experience.

I don't mind being corrected.

I'm going to react to the lower tiers, I don't really have hot takes on the Top 13 agreed upon OU staples.

Charizard is poop. So Sandslash is as far as damage goes the weakest SD user thats viable. Charizard haves no defensive utility at all and is weak to common attacks like Blizzard and Bolt but isn't as likely to get a sweep even comparing to niche mons.

Zard is really hard to make work and even when he does its the least effective.

Also how is Onix not in D tier or lower? 75 accuracy Bind and 75 speed just isn't good enough to justify it over Rhydon and Golem as for Rock and Ground types, Dragonite and Cloyster are better users of Partial Trapping.

 

[Billybobman]

I'm going to react to the lower tiers, I don't really have hot takes on the Top 13 agreed upon OU staples.

Charizard is poop. So Sandslash is as far as damage goes the weakest SD user thats viable. Charizard haves no defensive utility at all and is weak to common attacks like Blizzard and Bolt but isn't as likely to get a sweep even comparing to niche mons.

Zard is really hard to make work and even when he does its the least effective.

Also how is Onix not in D tier or lower? 75 accuracy Bind and 75 speed just isn't good enough to justify it over Rhydon and Golem as for Rock and Ground types, Dragonite and Cloyster are better users of Partial Trapping.

There's a player named Keagan who uses Charizard on one of his teams. I think the reason why he uses it is to surprise people. I've tried his team, it's alright. It's pretty difficult for me to tell what's actually good in this meta. But I agree that it's not very good compared to other SD mons. It still has some attributes like being a flying type, and 100 speed, but eh.

My reasoning for onix in that role is because it's still a Rock/Ground type which lets it sponge explosions, tank normal attacks, wall electrics, and take rock slides. It's bad at chaining Binds, but it's alright using it on a switch or against cloyster or something to get free switches to heavy hitters. It very much sucks when it misses. It doesn't always have to use bind, just switching it in can make the opposing player use a different move that will hit your other mons less hard. It also creates mind games, some players will EQ on your flying types predicting a switch to it.

I haven't tested onix very much outside of bird teams.

 

[heavylobster43]

Hey, I've been gaining more experience with this meta. My opinion currently feels all over the place.
But I wanted to share it anyways. I feel like it's hard to tell what's really good or not. There's also the fear of being wrong and just agreeing with other's opinions which I did a little bit when making my current list.

List

View attachment 487693

S+: Tauros tier. Wall breaker, revenge killer, lead, sweeper. It is good at all four. Does not need to surprise to be good.
S: Can run multiple sets well which aids in surprising people. They are also very strong as well.
A: Psychics tier. Good at dealing damage, can wall or wall break and spread important status.
B+: Very good but have flaws.
B: Still good, but have flaws like being hard walled, countered, weak to status etc. hard to describe this tier.
C: Niche options, have flaws, but they can fulfill important roles
D+: Kinda just based on other tier lists I've looked at.
D: I don't really use these mons all that often, but I won't laugh if you try them
Don't Know: this is just due to lack of experience.

I don't mind being corrected.

Jolteon is really good and has a solid place in the meta and should never be placed below niche stuff like Kingler. The core 13 are the core 13 for very good reason. Honestly I find Jolteon putting in work more reliably than Zapdos given its insane crit rate. Zapdos is nevertheless threatening to enough of the meta to always command respect. Separating the core 13 from the niche stuff is the main point of contention. Just below them I'd put Lapras, Golem, Victreebel, and Persian, all of which are well-established and good but usually overshadowed by standard mons, before proceeding on to the smaller niche stuff like Articuno, Moltres, Kabutops, and so on. The stuff you put in D and below I haven't really found to be worth using, though I appreciate Gyarados getting placed above that when I feel it's actually usable though it sometimes gets ranked alongside actual trash.

 

[marcoasd]

In the middle of SPL 14, things have a clear shape already.

Starmie came into the tournament with the credentials to earn more ground in the rankings; it was answered by Mega Drain Exeggutor (Stun Spore + Mega Drain is possible), Thunderbolt Chansey, Hyper Beam and one could make a case for Rhydon too.
All of the sleepers had negative win rates in the first 4 weeks (Gengar reached 50% after week 5), this includes Exeggutor. Exeggutor didn't pair well with Cloyster, this build hurt its win rate. Exeggutor+Gengar didn't perform well in the first weeks either, then bounced back in week 5 and so did Exeggutor individually.
Reflect Snorlax is still all over the place, and Hyper Beam was more common than Earthquake; Ice Beam was rare, and so was Selfdestruct.
Starmie was the best lead by a wide margin: sky high win rate after week 4, at the time nothing else had a positive win rate. Alakazam bounced back to >50% after week 5.
Starmie, Alakazam and Rhydon are the only pokemon that stood out in terms of win rate, so Recover Trio (most common team) and Rhydon builds at the top.
Jynx/Starmie/Rhydon was outperformed by Alakazam/Starmie/Rhydon and Starmie/Rhydon/S4 builds. Gengar/Starmie/Alakazam was used occasionally and it had decent success.
Zapdos performed when it was used in Starmie S4 builds, it was ok when paired with Jynx and Cloyster, failed in other builds even though the sample is small (most notably, Jynx/Zapdos/Starmie).

Cloyster was uncommon and Thunderbolt Tauros was barely represented. Counter Chansey's usage got up but it's still low: Gengar, quite popular and in good shape, is the one in charge of the anti-normal moves operations.
Each of Slowbro (who got snubbed, with a 5% usage), Jolteon, Lapras, Moltres and Articuno saw the battlefield a number of times you can count on one hand. No Victreebel at all, in spite of Starmie and Rhydon dominating the scene.
Unfortunately, this tournament introduces a time of poor variety in the tier: we're down to a low number of pokemon, barely double digit. 8 solid picks, Jynx/Gengar and the hit or miss pick Zapdos.
SPL players have no love for Slowbro and Amnesialax was used just two times (winning both). Slowbro is now facing more adversities but it's still underrated in my opinion.

 

[gastlies]

chansey using thunderbolt implies its also using ice beam otherwise its an unset. zapdos low winrate isnt smth new but no ones ever done a real analysis and imo starmie isnt doing much better than it has been doing, it's been used bout this much for awhile.

What I meant by that was the increase in boltbeam sets meant reflect sets were being used less often, and the fact that Starmie is performing as well as it was before despite people prepping for it more in the teambuilder and utilizing more anti-starmie options (more tbolt chansey, hb lax) means that it's been doing better in a way, since it's adapting to counterplay against it.

 

[Amaranth]

What I meant by that was the increase in boltbeam sets meant reflect sets were being used less often, and the fact that Starmie is performing as well as it was before despite people prepping for it more in the teambuilder and utilizing more anti-starmie options (more tbolt chansey, hb lax) means that it's been doing better in a way, since it's adapting to counterplay against it.

Reflect Chansey is one of Rhydon's favorite preys, it often wants to be paralyzed so that it can dodge freezes and once the Reflect Chansey is paralyzed Rhydon's odds skyrocket. Rhydon loves being in a Reflect Chansey meta, and hates the Chansey sets in the current one.

 

[phoopes]

A repeat of last year's message...

Hello everyone while I'm not really an OU player myself I thought I'd bump this because SPL is over and it'd be really cool if people dropped their VRs! There's an update in the works so look out for that soon as well. Happy VR season!

 

[Genesis7]

 

[gastlies]

Reasons

Big 3, order doesn't matter
Not sure how anybody cannot put this at #4 at this point. The top 8 most common team structures in this year's SPL all had Starmie in them. Without Starmie on your team, Cloyster becomes so much harder to deal with, and an increase in Surf usage has made stuff like Snorlax and Alakazam scared of Starmie too. Absolutely incredible mon.
Zam over eggy because zam is able to just hax its way through stuff like nothing else can. You think your chansey is a safe switch-in until you get FPed and Special dropped three times in a row. I also feel like people (myself included) sometimes just... forget that Zam has 35 more base special than Starmie, so it's much much more powerful. Zam also really likes the lower Reflect chansey usage, since it eats boltbeam sets for breakfast, while it struggles against reflect chansey's seismic toss. Also on double psychic teams you can let mie take para, then if you play carefully enough you can have an unparad zam for most of the game, which is incredibly dangerous
Still #7 imo, this thing is insane to switch into, unless you have an exeggutor, even then rhydon can predict an eggy switch, and eggy can't switch into body slam/rock slide forever. Cloyster is an okay-ish switch but body slam para and rock slide can put it in a sticky situation. Chansey being paralyzed more often too also helps Rhydon a lot.
Just a good mon. Recent meta trends are bad for it, like Starmie being amazing, Lax running hyper beam to snipe psychics, so this is all resulting in lower cloyster usage. Cloyster's partner in crime, Jolteon falling off is also bad for it, but Cloyster has seen good use in defensive cores alongside one of Gengar/Rhydon to check opposing Snorlax, allowing you to be more offensive with your own lax. I believe these teams are Cloyster's best use, although they do generally struggle vs psychics.
Gengar over jynx because both of these guys are using backup sleepers much more often, and Gengar with a backup sleeper is a bit better better than jynx with a backup sleeper imo. Jynx generally just sleeps then freeze fishes until it gets slept itself, but there's also the chance that the opposing team opts to paralyze jynx, break it down with their exeggutor, then sleep something else. These are generally bad matchups for Jynx, but it's made up for by the fact that Jynx has the chance to go 4v6 immediately if blizzard freezes. Gengar on the other hand. has really enjoyed Snorlax using mono-normal sets, since it walls them forever. Also gengar booming t1 vs jynx then using a backup sleeper is great against Jynx teams that lack a backup sleeper.
zapdos this low is probably the hottest take in my VR, but I just feel like this bird is so inconsistent. It obviously has a terrible matchup vs teams with Rhydon, but even without Rhydon it's not a guaranteed win. For example take a look at this game from SPL finals. During turns 124-126, we saw Zapdos get paralyzed then take 75% from a Paralyzed Starmie. Granted, the Zapdos did get pretty unlucky, but the fact that this is even possible is alarming.
Slowbro can either sweep a team or get crit instantly and die, similar to Zapdos's inconsistency, but Zapdos is more immediately threatening, and there's a bit less variance since playing with zapdos is faster paced.
These are the only remaining mons I would consider brining to a serious tournament, which is why I only ranked these guys out of the C-ranks. I might bring dnite or vic but unlikely, so I didn't rank them.

 

[Amaranth]

(meant to have eggy 5 zam 6, misplaced them in the image)

Reasoning

is so good. Playing without it is never ever justifiable IMO, just too strong and too valuable.
is nasty but below Tauros because even though he's stupid good, most of the things he does are somewhat replaceable. you can survive an early game without Snorlax, kind of, you can't really survive a lategame without Tauros
is great, but as usual, the fact that Chanseyless offense can and does function automatically makes her 3

is too good, arguably the best Tauros answer, a near complete shutdown to Cloyster and (if Tbolt) Slowbro, a rare actual Rhydon switchin, Jynx answer... it just does too many things to ignore. It's even one of the better sleepsacks available if you don't need it in the back. Crazy good pokemon, here to stay at #4
will literally never be bad, but getting dominated by Cloyster is pretty annoying for Eggy structures. Making him truly shine in the current meta is difficult, justifying normal moves or MegaDrain for real offensive power over the more flexible Stun Spore is getting harder and harder, but even at his worst he's always capable of 2 for 1 through Sleep into Boom, he's always the best Rhydon switchin in existence, and he's always got pressure on Snorlax with strong Psychics - things are about as bad for him as they can be right now I think, but he's still firmly #5
feels really good but then you get 2HKOed by Body Slam lol. it can't decide between wanting to get paralyzed to pressure Chansey and spread twave itself, or keep itself fresh for the endgame, where he might be thanos, or he might be OHKOed by crit slam or get slam par'd by rhydon into eq kill or whatever. Zam is one of the best noobkillers out there, but every game it has to pick between being unusable early game (by staying out of the wave of all paralysis inducers) or shit lategame (by accepting par early, and then being outsped and near-ohkoed by Tauros), and that's just not great. Also a pretty bad sleepsack, doesn't sleep itself and has an extremely hard time waking most of the time.

is calling the shots in the back right now. The sleep meta evolving has led to para spread being a bit harder yes, but it's also led to half the Exeggutors that used to be there back in the day, which means this guy is crazy difficult to stop. Zapdos is lower yes, but Gengar is higher and that's about as easy to abuse, arguably even better since it gives so many opportunities earlier on in the game. It will always be a hard Pokemon to use, because if you don't use it early you leave it for late and in late it gets mauled by Tauros, but it's just too strong to place any lower.
it brings me great pain to rank this mon this high, because fundamentally it's a pokemon that grabs a lot of its power by testing their luck on early blizzards. But with monoice Chansey and no normal move Eggy becoming more and more popular, Jynx can only go up too. There are some trends against it, granted - SurfMie and Gengar rising - but ultimately, the meta has overall evolved to be safer for Jynx than ever before; quite often it gets sleep, a few chances at freeze fish, and gets slept back. That's an unarguable net positive outcome. Troller spammed it and won hard all SPL season.
is crazy good rn. Low electrics, high Rhydon, he loves it. Gengar being high in some ways is bad, but it also comes with more EQ Laxes, which means overall more Gengar presence is probably a net neutral for Cloy's viability overall. So many people still can't play with or against this pokemon - please stop clamping for no reason lol, 75 accuracy is not 100. Clamp when you need to and when it achieves something. One of my favorite Pokemon and imo one of the most skill expressive
Look man I got nothing on this one Zapdos keeps fucking losing I can't keep being a fanboy. I mean I love him but I can't argue with facts, shit winrate in Invitational, shit winrate in SPL, shit winrate even in RBYWC lol. I don't entirely buy the argument that it's only the weaker players using it to try and fish a god match up, I think something's wrong with him. HB Lax is probably higher right now than ever and I suspect it has quite a lot to do with this. Low Eggy is less targets to Peck through, as well. That's my best guesses, but Zapdos's state and performance right now befuddles me more than anything else in the list
is a motherfucker. you all know what it does. it will eat sleep and still wall your mono lax while sleeping with a shit eating grin on his face. the absolute bastard. loves life in a meta where Jynx and HB Lax are high, loves being able to run Psychic so that it isn't complete Rhydon food and it's actually justifiable now that Eggy is seeing less use. things are about as good for Gengar now as they can be, a tbolt tauros epidemic is just about the only thing I can think could make it better

is sick nasty and loves low electrics, but has to contend for a slot with Starmie and Cloyster still, and that's no easy niche to carve out. still, great mon. it does what it does. both twave and reflect highly threatening in different ways, should probably see a touch more usage honestly.
is near dead, as the "electric that beats other electrics", now that electrics are worse than ever all around. honestly even C is a compliment - this mon is on the brink of extinction. hard to justify such a painful Rhydon match up for so little upside, the niche teams where he used to fit (JynxMieJolt amnelax, MieCloyJolt) have both fallen out of favor, this guy honestly could drop to UU as things stand

they're consistently disappointing but at least they're consistent. you know what you get when you load them, and sometimes it can be just the right thing. lapras loves the cloy matchups and can sometimes bulldoze through teams if the setup is correct - beating tauros 1v1 also always a nice thing to be able to do in the late stages of the game, even if blizz 2hko odds are as depressing as ever. persian hates gengar, but loves low Zaps - it loves low anything-that-can-TWave-you. you can switch on a tbolt gengar much more painlessly than on a zapdos twave. it farms rhydon and cloyster, it's nice. i like it more now than ever before.
feels heavily underrated right now. what a guy what a king. love him or hate him this guy has raw stats and thunder wave. blizzmie feels super low compared to what it used to be in the past. i need to use him more, he's great
boulder time. a lot of the reasons that make rhydon good right now also make golem good. golem rocks. haha

(D- is the inconsistency tier)
would be C tier if all his moves had +5 acc but they don't. good on paper but i just never wanna load a guy with no accurate moves. bad players should use him more to try and steal games from good players i think.
is just weird and not great in HBLax meta. inconsistent in that it needs to hit the right match ups to do anything. even if i were to load him i'd probably still prefer to sleepsack him than try to use him, he's just kinda bad. but i acknowledge its niche in theory
honestly could be a bit higher but its match ups are so hit or miss it's super painful. loves low zap but hates high gar high cloy and low eggy, pretty meh meta state for him. still an interesting mon on paper but you need to be willing to risk nightmare matchups to try and land the ones where he dismantles
it's been good but cloyster structures have evolved beyond cloy jolt and they're actually using real pokemon now, the cuno into cloy match up has turned from something you can outplay by doubling into a full on unwinnable nightmare. low eggy also means the scenarios where he's crazy good are rarer and rarer. very questionable pkmn right now it pains me to say.

funny little guys with funny little theoretical niches

anything else not on this list i cant even justify on paper let alone in practice

 

[Ortheore]

Notes:

• Although I maintain that Chansey is droppable while Lax/Taur are mandatory, the difference is so small and it's so rare that you'd actually drop Chansey that it doesn't make sense to tier them separately
• I decided subranks are dumb, mostly for B tier. Don is clearly best of the bunch, Zap kinda underperforms but I'm less sour on Jolteon just because I love its versatility
• I have no strong opinions on C/D ranks
• Of the trashmons (F and below), I have experience with Ditto, Seaking, Butterfree, Golbat, Farfetch'd, Venomoth, Hitmonchan and Magneton. Still retesting Kadabra. Everything else in F/trash ranks is theorymon
• Ditto is far and away the worst pokemon, the next 3 of Seaking, Butterfree and Golbat all belong together. I dislike Golbat the least out of all of them since I found it to be the most unique of all of them, whereas the other 2 are useless versions of already shitty pokemon. That said, Golbat is so useless that I daresay that I'd probably lose a debate if I seriously tried to argue for it, so I guess those 3 can be considered interchangeable

 

[Hipmonlee]

Tauros:
Still the boss
Chansey:
Theme of this year - I am big on sleepers. Double sleeper is the new default, as such, pretty much every sleeper climbs up.
Snorlax:
Of course
Exeggutor:
Mie vs Egg is pretty tight if I am being honest. Just went with Eggy cause its more exciting when people disagree. But sleep and explosion, when youre running double sleeper is just too good.
Starmie:
Actually benefits a lot from the rise in sleepers, because its good against most of them.
Alakazam:
People are catching on to what I always liked about Zam, but, that kinda makes it less effective for me...
Jynx:
Lets face it, this thing should be everyone's clear #7 now. It's basically always 7 in usage, and it never seems out of place any more. The risk of the t1 Chansey switch makes it a much more reliable sleep absorber.
Rhydon:
Offensively better than ever, but not as great defensively these days. A bit of a mixed bag.
Zapdos:
Backing up what Amaranth said here. It's just that I don't love Cloyster or Gengar either.
Gengar:
The only sleeper I think is maybe a little overrated. I mean, sorta, I have thought Gengar was underrated for a long time. But, my issue is basically that it is just a poor lead. Jynx is too often on double sleeper now, and the risk of t1 hypnosis of Gengar (the crit Psychic KO) is absolutely not worth the payoff of sleeping your opponents Jynx, if youre gonna get slept by the backup sleeper anyway. And that's the only lead Gengar doesnt suck against. Keep it in back, please.
Cloyster:
Cloysters PP issues are pretty severe. All those teams that are supposedly unusable because of Cloyster, can almost always force it to explode by pp wasting it anyway. There's basically no such thing as an unplayable Cloyster matchup. You can mitigate that somewhat with ice beam, but then you run into this issue: Cloyster Ice Beam vs. Snorlax: 120-142 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
Slowbro:
Hasn't changed in 24 years, or however long it was
Lapras:
Sleeper that beats up Starmie. It's actually pretty amazing in the current meta, especially since no one prepares for it. Explode on Chansey then send out Lapras is just such a simple but deadly line at the moment.
Jolteon:
I am still on the fence whether you should just run Zapdos or not.

################ OU ends here #################

Articuno:
There is no way Moltres is better than Arti. Yes the Cloyster matchup sucks, but, you can prepare for Cloyster. Cloyster isnt Rhydon. (Not that I am saying Rhydon is as good against Molt as Cloy is against Arti in a 1v1, just that, having Pokemon weak to Rhydon makes Rhydon really damn hard to deal with. Having pokes weak to Cloyster means you have to wait until Cloyster explodes.)
Victreebel:
On the one hand, wrap is worse than ever. On the other hand, a mixed attacking sleeper is really great. Definitely considering classic SD sets. But, I think Sleep, RL, Body Slam, Wrap is actually still the best option here. Still gonna choke the shit out of a hell of a lot of games for you. But, as long as surf mie is common, Victreebel is going to win games.
Golem:
Still great, tbh. Especially likes builds like jynx, mie, zam, which are more and more frequent now. Exploding to take out Cloyster can be pretty viable.
Hypno:
The meditate headbutt set is actually viable. Counter, Hypnosis, this Mon does a lot. I actually have moved this thing around three or four times already. When it is good, it is very, very good. But...
Kabutops:
Kabutops ended up so high because ultimately, I do not think there is a significant advantage to Persian over Kabutops, compared with the ice/normal resistance Kabutops offers. Outspeeding Tauros and Zapdos and not being weak to Tbolt, are definitely nice, but compared with hardwalling a bunch of Snorlax/Chansey sets? I just think Kabutops might be better. And in the spirit of stoking controversy, here it is. Amaranth mentioned a set of Slash, Surf, Sub, Rest once, and I didnt think much of it at the time, but it has stuck in my mind. I will definitely be trying it out some time. My testing with Omastar has left me very aware of how much better Kab would be with just a bit more resilience.
Persian:
Kinda covered this above.
Kangaskhan:
I don't have much to say here. A great mon, that's totally usable, but is hard to squeeze into a team. [Edit] - moved this up a bit, it should not have been way down there...
Sandslash:
Great for beating both Zapdos and Rhydon. A scary threat, but defensively a little underwhelming, and a bit sad against Cloyster.
Dragonite:
My testing with nite this year was on a UU vs OU team, so maybe I am biased. But it was bad. Definitely loves the abundance of surfmie. Obviously has a bunch of great traits, I just didnt get to experience them.
Poliwrath:
A sleeper that 2hkos Chansey. You should absolutely use this thing, it is incredibly strong. When it hits its attacks.
Omastar:
I was blown away with how good this was when I actually used it. This is absolutely the king of chasing out snorlax. Because the lax often has 0 tools to prevent it coming in, and when it does have quake, you dont really care.. And Hydropump is doing a ~40% per turn. Lax can't sit there sneaking rest turns. It's so forcing. Unfortunately it sucks against everything else, but, what it does it does so damn well. That extra defence is great for fighting lax and then still being able to mess up Tauros. And: Tauros Thunderbolt vs. Omastar: 100-118 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO
Moltres:
Here's your Moltres I guess. Just use Articuno...
Machamp:
Submission and Counter are a big combination. Don't run this without body slam, as some dude found out when he made that video about how bad Machamp is. But with Body Slam and Counter or Hyperbeam or both you can make progress against pretty much anything. Except maybe Slowbro, which I keep facing every time I bring Machamp to a tournament game somehow.
Dodrio:
That matchup sucks, and it isnt really great enough in the other games. I think its sole merit is as a lead, but it's actually fairly solid there.
Porygon:
Now I have discovered Omastar, I'm even more down on Pory. Great noob killer.
Raichu:
Somewhat scary mixed attacker, but the benefits of surf dont really make up for the lack of speed/damage/bulk compared with Jolteon.
Pinsir:
Bind gives it a niche over Persian, but, it's Bind...
Kingler:
Kinda hard to justify over Moltres in a way? Definitely has its niche, but the fact that Cloyster does more to it with Blizzard than it can do back with anything definitely sucks.
Flareon:
A fire type version of Kingler?
Clefable:
It's a sleeper that's really hard to block, except by not bothering because sing is gonna miss anyway. Clef just hasn't really got the bulk for sing...

################ OU Tournament Viability ends here ################

I will try and edit in lower stuff later.

 

[oakdeon]

 

[Enigami]

Reasoning

Nothing too special in the upper ranks. Top 3 Normals are mandatory S ranks, top 3 Psychics are a cut above the rest in A, everything else is solid in B. Only thing is maybe my Gengar ranking being slightly too high, but right now I'm really digging Normal immunity.

In C rank: It's hard to justify ranking Jolteon in the Bs since it mostly an Electric that checks other Electrics, except all Electrics aren't doing so well right now so do you really need an Electric check? I'm digging status + Wrap at the moment and so Dragonite and Victreebel get a boost compared to the average RBY VR, and both are loving the SurfBolt Starmie trend. Lapras still seems awkward to fit on to teams, yet it still puts in enough work in games to feel deserving of being a solid C in my eyes.

In D rank: Persian in D, I'm going there. I don't like how Persian limits teams by having atleast 2 Pokemon that can't switch into anything. I see almost all of you ignored my request to rank Arbok, except Ortheore who put it at the bottom of F+ below ACTUAL trash like Charizard and Tangela, but I'm happy you atleast ranked it. Arbok might be trash standalone but it puts in work on Paralysis+Wrap spam and actually provides real utility to the team archetype it goes on by dealing with Gengar, which is more than a lot of E and even some D ranks can claim. I've already been scoring wins with Arbok in Ubers and OU, it's only a matter of time before you guys see the light! Kabutops doesn't like Starmie being more popular than ever, but mono-IB Chansey and non-EQ Laxes are always trends Kabutops enjoys, and being a Swords Dancer with actual defensive utility is always a big positive. Sandslash as well, though non-STAB Rock Slide being a 3HKO against Zapdos while Zapdos 5HKOs with Drill Peck makes it a lot less of an electric answer than you'd like.

In E rank: Gyarados is kind of awkward, like you put Starmie, Lapras and Articuno in a blender and got a sort of average between them in stats and typing but lost their unique qualities. As is, it's an alright tank that switches into Rhydon Earthquakes for free without being answered by just switching into Chansey or Starmie. I'd sooner run Persian than Kangaskhan, but it does get Earthquake so it does have its place on Normal spam teams that don't want to be walled by Gengar. Pinsir is among the worst of the OU Swords Dancers but it does have Bind which can be really troublesome if it hits. Nidoqueen exists on this list for one reason: it's a Ground that isn't ripped to shreds by Cloyster and Victreebel, and while mediocre it can still put in work, especially against JoltCloy teams. Machamp and Raichu have funny hit certain Pokemon for super effective damage but bring little else to the table. Dodrio... I severely dislike. All the problems of Persian exaggerated. Far worse Speed, even more frail thanks to boltbeam weakness, checked by Gengar but unlike Persian it is walled by the currently very strong Rhydon.

Notable missing Pokemon: Hypno, Poliwrath and Omastar. I did rank them in my VR submission to phoopes on about where I suspect they belonged but I lack experience with/against them so I didn't rank them here. I particularly like the idea of Omastar, though Hipmonlee severely underplays how rough Omastar vs. Earthquake Snorlax is. If Omastar switches into Earthquake, or worse, switches into Body Slam and gets paralyzed, Snorlax can pretty comfortably stay in and brawl with Omastar even if Omastar does not miss or fully paralyze. With Omastar at a disadvantage Snorlax would come out of most fights with Omastar dead and Snorlax able to find an opportunity to Rest later. I'm all for a Water/Rock fad though. More EQ RefLaxes are the best case scenario for Porygon.

 

[Tarvold]

Notes

For the Big 3 positions I don’t inherently disagree with any order. I personally put Bull #3 as I’ve had the most success building without it. I really value the defensive utility and early/mid game presence Lax/Chans can provide. They enable Bull to succeed rather than vice versa and have consistency vs Bull’s variance. Though as an opposing threat to respect Tauros is obviously #1.

Mie is the clear #4. It’s great as lead and in the back, there’s not much else to say. I have previously had Zam over Egg, but that was probably harsh on Egg. Has a versatile toolkit and is the best answer to Don in the game.

Don is currently the 7th best. It’s just a scary thing to switch into and be weak to. Has some great damage ranges and can wreck Para’d teams. Believe that only the iffy late-game Tauros matchup, and occasional difficulty in getting past RefLax, hold it back from A- tier.

Bro in my opinion is far better than given credit for. A special attacker that’s not walled by Chansey. Decent switch into Lax and Tauros Body Slams or Hyper Beams while usually retaining net-positive momentum. Can TWave trade with fast Psychics to keep your Psys/Chans status free. It gives team information by the opponent’s response to it (are they running a back Mie, an Electric, TBolt-less Chansey?). Being able to survive crit Bull HBeam’s and crit Mie Tbolts from full in order to get your TWave off is valuable. Reflect and Substitute can also be good options at times.

Gar/Cloy/Zap could really be any order, depending on meta trends. Zap seems to be currently struggling, but still an obvious threat to respect.

Though Jynx usually can get you that turn 1 sleep, it doesn’t feel right to me to rank it higher than #12. In most cases it’s an un-mon after Turn 2. You really have to baby it to get it to successfully take sleep, as it’s so vulnerable when resting. While even gaining the early freeze shouldn’t be ‘that’ decisive since sure the enemy is down a mon, yet now has freeze immunity, while you’re still running a Jynx that shouldn’t be able to threaten anything else.

Jolt is still ok. Rhydon doesn’t completely outclass it as a Zap check. It can revenge kill a chipped down Bull, threaten Mie/Cloy, and has the good Chansey matchup. A fair few teams seem to be naturally weak to it.

Lap could still be B- to be honest. Arguably still an OU worthy mon and definitely around where the cut-off lands. It can’t be sleep blocked by Mie and is decent anti-Cloy tech. It can be capable of sleeping valuable targets, though relying on Sing is painful. Can go toe to toe with Lax and Bull.

Sandslash is the best Swords Dancer (not counting Vic as it rarely utilises it). The Don matchup is a big positive. Zap and Jolt give it set-up and Sub opportunities. It’s fun to use.

Nidoqueen can function in place of BroDon cores that want to be more anti JoltCloy. It’s slightly more anti Vic and Egg too. Has nice utility in protecting Bro from Tauros HBeams and OHKOing with Counter, though is obviously a gamble to run.

Been liking Amnesia-less Poliwrath recently. It can function as a Sleeper Para’d Chansey can’t block - in a way similar to Vic. Has nice matchups with Lax, Bull and Cloy.

Lickitung has been semi-slept on in the past, yet seems to be getting a bit more respect recently. It’s not that difficult to get to +4, and trade at least 1v1 with it.

E tier and below I’m extremely unlikely to bring for tournament play. There’s not much to talk about with all being mostly outclassed or only bringing very marginal niches to the table.

For the bottom tier, Golbat should be the 4th worst. It’s terrible but provides EQ immunity in some theoretical ParaFuseSpam team. Ditto is obviously largely trash yet I can’t rank it bottom. It at least provides scouting in 4 of your opponent’s moves, and by your opponent’s response to it, it can be possible to deduce other move-sets. For Seaking and Seadra, there are just a myriad of other options outclassing both. It’s extremely difficult to justify either.

 

[McMeghan]

Ranked the Pokemons I tried to use myself over the last year, from Classic to RBY Invitational (and some minor SPL support).

Quick reasonning for everything with my own preferences sprinkled in.


Obviously a class above everything. I think Snorlax is the best Pokémon in the hands of the tier's veterans, as it's the best at either creating openings or balancing bad positions through a well placed Boom/Hbeam. Tauros is Tauros. Chansey is incredible and Sing allows for cool structures/sets. I dislike mono-Ice Beam though because I hate it when Chansey is a free Starmie recovery.


Starmie is the best Pokémon in the tier after the Normals and is also the best against Snorlax/Tauros itself. I don't like Starmie lead much anymore because I think foddering Starmie to sleep is getting rid of one of its best quality (aka helping vs the Normals). Exeggutor is the best early breaker in "normal" matchups and I am very high on Sleep-less sets alongside Gar/Jynx/Chansey (see Troller replays for top tier all-out Egg gameplay). Egg is even better nowadays as a lot of Starmie can actually get pressured by it because of the popularity of Surf/Tbolt. Alakazam is reliable and strong and the best neutral Pokémon to have in the back vs everything except maybe Slowbro.

I feel like the B rank is where the personal preferences show the most.

Nothing starts a game quite like Jynx and I think it's just great at getting a good opener while preserving your back Zam/Starmie. I'm not a big fan of letting it go low in an attempt to fish freeze and then getting pressured easily by Egg. Jynx is great because it allows you to get the most out of the best Pokémons in the tier.

Similar to Jynx honestly but less consistent as a sleeper (and also gets pressured by Sleepers). Despite its shortcomings, I think Gengar is amazing for its ability to 1) force the Normals to think before throwing a Normal stab; 2) enable very aggro gameplay with fast sleep + boom; 3) force Snorlax to respect it in the builder and limit its breaking potential.

Not much to say about Zapdos that isn't already known. It's amazing and easily the best Pokémon in the tier if it's not for its backbreaking Rhydon matchup. I like how Gengar and Zapdos can actually turn the tides vs a well postionned Tauros/Snorlax through their normal and ground immunity.

Rhydon is strong and imo rewards the most calculated/patient players. However I personally heavily dislike how it can be exploited by Tauros and I also dislike the interactions with Ref Lax (and even Chansey to an extent, especially as IB-less is barely a thing atm). I like Leer to actually force out RefLax resting.

I think this Pokémon is very mid honestly, it's not that great into any of the top tiers as everything pressures it in some kind of way. But I actually quite like it in Chansey-less aggro teams. Also while it may not fit my own preferences, it's definitely not terrible and is a consistent Pokémon.

Big drop of viability from here.


Have qualities that will make them be usable every game. I don't have anything special to say about either of them, besides the fact that I've explored Slowbro on "slower teams" over the Tauros slot and I was honestly satisfied. I don't really like Jolteon vs good players, I feel likeit's mostly a noob slayer.


I think these Pokémons are good but are very inconsistent in their very nature. Lapras shines as a late game sleeper with its good Normals matchup, but you hate to click Sing with it basically. Dragonite can technically win any game. I think Wrap is honestly much better with Toxic as support by the way. Victreebel has an amazing toolkit but it has a shit bulk/typing and all of its best moves are innacurate, which means a miss often comes at the cost of its usefulness.

Big drop of viability from here.


Articuno is honestly ass as I rarely see gamestates where Starmie and Chansey have both been cleared; especially nowadays as I feel like Starmie are more often kept in the back. Porygon is a noob killer and doesn't even beat every Snorlax set. Moltres: see Articuno except worse into Zapdos/Rhydon. Golem is honestly justifiable on some very aggro teams imo.


There are definitely much better Pokémons than those two, but I haven't tried them myself unlike the fire spinners, which is why I'm only ranking those two. And honestly they're not good BUT I fancied them in Wrap teams as they have a good Jynx matchup and can get some early Toxic going for a late game Dnite sweep.

 

[Hipmonlee]

So why is Mie #5 again?

Because it is used a lot more than Alakazam.

 

[Deezcastforms]

I think the biggest takeaway from this are my beliefs that Jolt is not an OU caliber Pokemon. Definitely a couple other things people may take notice of, but Jolt is easily the most important thing. With Rhydon on the rise (despite my putting it a spot lower than most), the Electrics are under more scrutiny than ever to prove their OU worthiness, and like Rhydon and Golem before them, Jolteon is largely a lesser Zapdos whose biggest edge is winning the 1v1 against it's competition (Golem's biggest edge was probably boom, really. But you get the point).

Jolteon is faster, but both of its attacking stats are weaker, it is frailer, and it has to spread its coverage for Chansey and Exeggutor over two moveslots while Zapdos can just use Drill Peck for both. This means Jolteon has to chose between Rest or Thunder Wave for its utility move, while Zapdos is free to fit two of Thunder Wave, Agility, and Hyper Beam onto its set, widening the gap even further between the two since Zapdos has better utility options because it has room for more.

Imo, Jolteon's best roles in OU is alongside Zapdos on teams that hard fish for no Rhydon, and on teams that need a Zapdos and a Slowbro answer compressed into one slot, which I do not see as OU caliber niches. Otherwise, just run Zapdos, or even coverage Thunderbolt on a better Pokemon.

 

[marcoasd]

At the time of my submission for the VR, I went with this order and I'll tell you why. My decisions were very much influenced by the huge amount of data available SPL and RBYWC (right before semifinals).
Plan was to let everyone vote and post after WC, but everyone is posting right now so I'll strike the iron when it's hot.









mister inevitability
midgame revolves around him
I confirmed this pick from my most recent post because Chansey is passive and this hurts a lot against Snorlax; both pokemon are pests when unstatused, but Starmie doesn't lose as much value to paralysis. Chansey is great early, but Starmie is one of the very best pokemon late in the game (possibly number two). It refuses to go down.
Starmie is also arguably the best lead in the game. It deals with important pieces in the metagame like Cloyster, Exeggutor, Rhydon and Surf makes it decent against Alakazam too.
This take is controversial because Chansey is used in almost every team due to its typing and I can't fault you for ranking the blob higher, but I'll take power over versatility.
is a sleeper that doesn't care as much as other ones about paralysis, but it often has to eat some ice moves in the process. Other than that, it lands Thunder wave and leaves the floor to nastier pokemon. Limited role, monoice isn't threatening and beambolt is owned by Snorlax and Alakazam. Still does what it does and it's something you gladly take.
has Recover and it can be problematic to switch into it in a world where Seismic Toss Chansey is rare (due to Rhydon) and things like Slowbro and Exeggutor have lower than usual usages. It pairs well with Cloyster and this helped it. Speed is also important.
is the best pokemon with a sleep move, not the best sleeper because it has the hardest path to landing the sleep move. Still does what it does, but it lacks some offense: it takes permanent damage and can't dish it out as easily. Rest is only a patch, not a solution.
is a great hitter. Snorlax is better at switching into Normal-Types and it's also better at taking out Cloyster with Hyper Beam, but Rhydon has its targets too: Alakazam, para'd Starmie, Reflect Chansey, Gengar and obviously Zapdos or monolax (Rhydon will fish for critical hits that look like OHKO moves). Substitute is great. It feels like Rhydon could be ranked even higher for what it brings offensively.
is an annoyance, it punishes Exeggutor Rhydon builds and slow teams in general. It's not easy to KO it without access to proper tools, consider that things like Gengar, Counter Chansey and Rhydon punish monoLax and Tauros isn't all that happy to make room for Thunderbolt.
I had to put its win rate into account. Cloyster lowkey forces Snorlax and Tauros to use moves that suck against Gengar, Jynx is common. Hypnosis and Explosion do the rest.
win rate isn't spectacular but it grew to something respectable. And usage is crazy high.
you couldn't see me ranking Zapdos lower than Gengar and Jynx, but it's happening. Maybe this has something to do with win rates in recent tournaments and also with the fact that I'm not using a lot anymore. The landscape hasn't changed: Rhydon is doing great and many teams have just one weakness.
Having Zapdos so low is still awkward and I feel like a lot of this is related to teambuilding: most players are using Zapdos teams that don't work. Zapdos can work. And when it does...
same reasoning as for Zapdos here. Snorlax using Selfdestruct more often is bad news. Exeggutor, Cloyster and Gengar have Explosion, Rhydon can 3HKO, Starmie has Thunderbolt and so does Chansey sometimes. And I don't like using Reflect because I want versatility. It still enjoys the presence of Jynx, Sing Chansey, Alakazam and ReflectLax but I'm not defending his case as much as I could this time. Sorry bro.
still frail. I won't rule it out, but Snorlax and Tauros adapting to Cloyster hurt Jolteon more than Cloyster. Anyway, Rhydon sends his regards.

I didn't go deeper because my criterias (stats and eye test) fade away here. I have not seen these pokemon in action enough, not in the new context.
At first glance I support Amaranth's list because I buy the reasoning behind it, maybe a bit harsh on birds and Victreebel but you have to pick something.