OU Raikou

Srn9130 said:
It's been mentioned that you set up on aegislash with ease, so I won't talk about that, but:

+1 252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 142-168 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is assuming aegislash run 16 evs in speed creep, almost all aegislash these days run atleast that much.
To be fair, it doesn't make much of a difference factoring in Leftovers from King's Shield, but more importantly:

+1 252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 192-226 (63.5 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You won't have to deal with any low damage rolls and then risk her roosting, or risk her Psyshocking as you CM predicting her roost. No need to worry about any of that if you get a low roll, just shadow ball away.

But I'd say you're right in the long run, after doing all these calcs, extrasensory seems to be a little better just for mega venu.
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yeah plus you shouldn't sweep at simply +1 imo
 
Raikou has TONS of usefulness right now thanks to its speed tier alone, the Calm Mind set is devastating and pairs great with sweepers who dislike Talonflame/Rotom/Thundurus (read: practically all sweepers), and of course creaming Venusaur and Zard Y one-on-one is huge.

I actually do believe an all-out attacking set with Thunderbolt/Aura Sphere/Extrasensory/HP Ice, Rash and Life Orb (or AV I guess if you want it to still check the fast/special attackers CM+3 checks, but LO is probably best) is absolutely viable, even if it's OO or something. Because of the big speed drop this set plays completely differently, no longer working as a utility check or revenge killer so well but becoming a very unique and powerful wallbreaker. Its main niche would be singlehandedly demolishing common stall cores like MandiVenuTran while also beating Tyranitar, Excadrill and Kyurem-B. Having all those bulky threats covered at once can be a useful patch for many teams who perhaps don't struggle as much with HO.
 
252 Speed should be the preferred option simply because of how much more often Gengar is being used nowadays. The Calm Mind and Assault Vest sets can take it out with Extrasensory and Shadow Ball respectively. While neither is hurt that much by Gengar's attacks, Raikou is a Pokemon that tends to get worn down very quickly and you don't want to be eating 40% damage.
 
224 Spe Timid is enough to outspeed Thundurus on all of the sets, and, by extension, Gengar. I don't know where you're getting that idea from?
 
After discussion with other QC members and some other people, I'm moving AV back to the first set. This is the most commonly used competitive Raikou set. The point of the set is that Raikou is generally used for one purpose on offensive teams: to serve as a really good Thundurus/Flying mon check. CM does nothing for this role. All it does is make Raikou into a sweeper that really isn't that hard to deal with given all the common Ground Scarfers and number of common Pokemon that can check/counter it. AV, meanwhile, helps in a number of scenarios. It lets Raikou check Greninja, as even Hydro Pump fails to 2HKO with the Assault Vest boost -- a threat it could not handle otherwise. LO Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost does about half instead of 75%. It can also check weakened Aegislash, as:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 112-134 (34.5 - 41.3%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also makes switching into Thundurus easier:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Raikou: 161-190 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Raikou: 124-146 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 83-98 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It is also extremely significant against Manaphy, which it needs the bulk from Assault Vest to really handle:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In general Raikou is afforded much more bulk. Not that it handles Mega Gardevoir particularly well, but just for demonstration purposes:

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

Assault Vest affords Raikou a lot of bulk that it doesn't get with a simple Leftovers CM set. CM doesn't help in Raikou's primary role of serving as an offensive check to certain common threats. Based on use among good players and my conversations with others, I'm moving it back to the first set.

Additionally, I'm slashing Extrasensory on the set. It does about 40% to non-SDef Mega Venusaur, which can be really useful if you manage to wear it down into 2HKO range (not difficult), and generally puts a lot of pressure on it. I find Shadow Ball more useful in general, but Extrasensory is also a solid contender for the moveslot.
 
yes, I think the main argument which is compelling to me fr AV raikou is that its role is purely as a flying/thundy check. Because of this it needs to have an item that improves survivability. Leftovers or ASsault Vest are the only real choices and because Calm Mind doesn't serve its role as a check to threats at all, its better off with 4 attacks so AV's side effect is not felt. Now the choice of lefties vs. AV is perhaps legit, lefties help you n the physical side of bulk whereas AV does not, and it also improves hazard survivability and is more efficient agaisnt incredibly weak attacks. However, despite the uses leftovers have AV is just more efficient at doing what it needs to do.
 
I trust you to expand the overview with stuff like good typing, volt switch pivoting, relatively ass movepool, etc. when you write it up.

In my opinion, Extrasensory isn't worth the slash on Assault Vest. Hitting Latios and Aegislash for good damage is great, and on Mega Venusaur, I'd rather just Volt Switch for the chip damage into something that can force it out, probably making it take Stealth Rock damage without recovering in the process too. Mention in moves but don't slash imo.
When in doubt, Volt Switch out. Well, unless the opponent has a Ground-type that might come in. In that case, it's usually best to go for Hidden Power Ice or Shadow Ball to get some damage off.
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Eh, I don't agree with this. If they're bringing in Landorus-T or Garchomp or something, sure, use HP Ice, but if they're bringing in Excadrill or Hippowdon, just hard switch.

Add Mega Charizard X to the list of Ground- and Dragon-types that don't care about HP Ice in the comments for CM.

Pokemon that struggle with Thundurus (admittedly, this is a lot of Pokemon) are good teammates.

Give a different example than Bisharp for physical attackers in C&C, Bisharp gets ripped up by Thunderbolt and there's much more reliable examples like Kyurem-B, Charizard X, and Terrakion.

How exactly is Sylveon a counter to CM Raikou?

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +2 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 69-82 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

I actually think it would be worth making the spread 44 HP / 240 SpA / 224 Spe in order to guarantee that Sylveon can't break the sub.

Other than that, looks good.

Stamp.gif


QC 1/3
 
Swamp Link said:
How exactly is Sylveon a counter to CM Raikou?

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +2 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 69-82 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

I actually think it would be worth making the spread 44 HP / 240 SpA / 224 Spe in order to guarantee that Sylveon can't break the sub.
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Hyper Voice goes through subs so that's probably why its in the C+C although it does do shit all but the changes to that EV spread would be fairly useless
 
PurpleCordial said:
Hyper Voice goes through subs so that's probably why its in the C+C although it does do shit all but the changes to that EV spread would be fairly useless
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Oh, of course, I can't believe I forgot about that. Still, Sylveon is setup bait for Raikou, so it should be removed.
 
this is so short but raikou is incredibly straightforward and there really wasn't much to say...and i'm not bsing fluff for the sake of making this longer. qc pls
 
Having used CM Raikou quite extensively I have to say that Substitute should absolutely be slashed before Extrasensory, it's far better in almost all circumstances. At +1 defensive Mega Venusaur is already failing to break your sub with Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb is about 50/50 (investing into HP EVs can improve those odds), so you can beat it anyway, especially if it leads with Leech Seed or Sleep Powder. Meanwhile Extrasensory will often fail to 2HKO at +1 if you factor in Giga Drain / Leech Seed recovery, and being hit by Leech Seed in particular will ruin your tanking ability and usually force you to switch out. Conkeldurr isn't really a common enough switch-in to warrant a dedicated coverage move.

Substitute is amazing and one of the best reasons to use CM Raikou over the AV set. It allows you to set up on Bisharp and Mega Mawile (also stops them revenge killing) as well as SubToxic Aegislash (even if it attacks, it's left in vulnerable blade stance) and other status users. It also lets you beat most Ferrothorn as it blocks Leech Seed and thanks to Pressure you will stall out all the PP of either Power Whip or Gyro Ball by the time you're on Sub #4. Finally if you can keep sub up it stops you from being easily revenge killed by Scarf Landorus-T, Garchomp, Ditto and to a lesser extent Excadrill. In my opinion the advantages so heavily outweigh Extrasensory's that Extrasensory is almost never worthwhile.
 
Holy crap Jukain this analysis is short even though there are three sets.
AM check! (WIP, will finish)
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Jukain said:
kinda barebones, i did this in like 5 minutes so we would have something for the dex. any lacking info would probably be in the team options, so tell me if i'm missing stuff

Overview
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Boasting high Speed, good Special Attack, and a key Electric typing, Raikou finds a niche in XY OU as a check to top-tier threats such as Thundurus, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir. With the aid of an Assault Vest, it can check even the likes of Greninja and pivot about with Volt Switch, functioning as a nice glue Pokemon for offensive teams weak to these specific threats. Not only that, but it can function as a devastating Calm Mind sweeper against unprepared teams and has decent coverage that makes it far from one-dimensional. Poor physical bulk, generally unimpressive power without a boost, and being easily handled by special walls hold it back significantly, but Raikou still manages to shine in a tier dominated by powerful Flying-(add dash) and Electric-types.

Assault Vest
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name: Assault Vest
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Volt Switch
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Shadow Ball / Extrasensory
item: Assault Vest
evs: 252 SpA / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
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Thunderbolt is Raikou's most reliable STAB move; it has great the most damage (Even though it isn't viable, Thunder is stronger, just say "great damage output") output and poses a great threat to Water-types and Mega Charizard Y, (RC) which Raikou is generally supposed to check. Volt Switch gives it a safe move to pivot around with and wear down defensive threats with, especially in conjunction with entry hazards. Hidden Power Ice is compulsory coverage to hit Landorus, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Garchomp, whoich otherwise completely wall Raikou. In the last slot, Shadow Ball 2HKOes Latios on the switch, while Extrasensory threatens Mega Venusaur The last slot boils down to whether 2HKOing Latios (Shadow Ball) or actually threatening Mega Venusaur (Extrasensory) is preferred.

Set Details
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The EVs provide enough Speed to outrun Thundurus and the firepower needed to threaten its opponent for Raikou to have a good enough damage output, with the rest in Special Defense to get a bit more special bulk out of the Assault Vest. Max Speed can be run to Speed tie with Starmie, but it isn't common enough to be worth sacrificing bulk that comes in handy against threats such as Greninja.

Usage Tips
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Be wary of switching in and out a lot with this Assault Vest Raikou, as it will be worn down quickly. When in doubt, uUnless the opponent has a bulky Ground-type waiting in the wings to switch in, using Volt Switching out is usually the best option unless you absolutely have to stay in and attack. This keeps the momentum of the battle in your favor. If the opponent has a bulky Ground-type on their team to switch in, just hard switch out anticipating the play.

Team Options
========

Pokemon such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz that can handle Ground-types and physical attackers in general are useful make great teammates. Entry hazards limit this Assault Vest Raikou's longevity immensely due to its lack of Leftovers, so Defog or Rapid Spin support is greatly heavily appreciated. It fits well into VoltTurn cores with Pokemon such as Scizor and Landorus-T.

Calm Mind
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name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Extrasensory / Substitute
item: Leftovers
evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Calm Mind boosts Raikou's Special Attack, allowing it to function as an effective boosting sweeper. Thunderbolt is the main STAB attack, providing the most power needed against neutral targets. Hidden Power Ice covers most Ground- and Dragon-types, whoich would otherwise wall Raikou. Extrasensory gives important coversage on important targets such as Mega Venusaur, as well as Assault Vest Conkeldurr. If Raikou's teammates can handle Mega Venusaur adequately, then Substitute is an option to protect it from status and revenge kills. Volt Switch is another option, allowing Raikou to pivot around and have general use throughout the match; however, it is prone to being worn down and thus might have trouble sweeping, and it becomes hard to justify this over an Assault Vest variant.

Set Details
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The Special Attack and Speed EVs enable Raikou to outrun Thundurus whilst hitting as hard as possible. The rest is dumped into HP for a tad extra bulk. Leftovers is a necessity to keep Raikou healthy so it can survive to set up and complete a sweep.

Usage Tips
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This Raikou can set up on Thundurus and Aegislash, two of the largest threats in OU, making setup often not difficult. Naturally, don't set up until Raikou's counters have been removed; until it can sweep, switching in at all should be avoided at all costs. Furthermore, don't be too greedy with boosts and let Raikou get worn down into a range where it can be revenge killed by priority.

Team Options
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Pokemon to take out pesky Excadrill, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, and Choice Scarf Garchomp are heavily appreciated. Offensive Water-types, such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Greninja, are standout options. Eliminating Chansey is also necessary; the aforementioned Keldeo as well as lures such as Knock Off Landorus can succeed at this role. If Substitute is chosen, then Pokemon to take out Mega Venusaur are mandatory; Landorus and Mega Charizard X are both adept at this task.

Choice Specs
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name: Choice Specs
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Volt Switch
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Extrasensory
item: Choice Specs
evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Thunderbolt provides a strong, reliable STAB option. Volt Switch is decently powerful with a Choice Specs boost, and moreover provides Raikou with a cost-free move that lets it pivot off unfavorable matchups. Hidden Power Ice hits crucial Ground- and Dragon-types for super effective damage. Extrasensory covers Mega Venusaur, which can otherwise handle this set well. Shadow Ball can be decent as a situtational heavier hit on Latios, taking off upwards of three-quarters of its HP, but Hidden Power Ice already 2HKOes, so it isn't overall very useful.

Set Details
========

The Special Attack and Speed EVs enable Raikou to outrun Thundurus whilst hitting as hard as possible. The rest is dumped into HP for a tad extra bulk.

Usage Tips
========

Volt Switch is generally the spam move of choice, dealing moderate damage and providing a safeguard against poor matchups. Against Ground-type foes, it's typically best to hard switch into a better matchup on the predicted switch so that you don't lose momentum. Thunderbolt should be used to clean and for extra power if it is needed to obtain a KO. Like all Raikou variants, you'll want to watch switching it in. Raikou is prone to being worn down by entry hazards and even resisted attacks. If the foe has a Pokemon such as Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, or Talonflame, you'll want to make sure Raikou isn't brought down to such a range where they can break through it.

Team Options
========

This Raikou finds itself at home on offensive teams with VoltTurn cores. Pokemon such as Mega Scizor can form such cores; Mega Scizor specifically can pressure Chansey with Knock Off and generally threaten it, which is necessary for Raikou to break through defensive teams. Defog or spin support is essential to keep it in tip-top shape to handle threats; Skarmory and Mandibuzz can handle threatening Ground-types well and fill this role. Kyurem-B, Keldeo, and Manaphy are options to take care of Ground-types, too.


Other Options
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Aura Sphere would be a great option on Raikou, allowing it to smack threats such as Tyranitar and Mamoswine where it hurts, but it is event-locked to a Rash nature, which restricts it to Choice Scarf sets lest Raikou be outsped by many popular threats, including Keldeo, Latios, and Thundurus. Its movepool is rather shallow, so there isn't much else it can really do.

Checks and Counters
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**Ground-types**: Mamoswine, Excadrill, Hippowdon, and Quagsire are all stellar answers to Raikou, as they take a pittance from its attacks and threaten it with their STAB Ground-type attacks. Choice Scarf Garchomp and Landorus-T are 4x weak to Ice, but can outspeed and OHKO it.

**Physical attackers that aren't hit super effectively by Thunderbolt**: Raikou's disappointing physical bulk means hard-hitting physical attackers, such as Tyranitar and Bisharp, can handle it easily.

**Special walls**: Unaware Clefable stops Calm Mind Raikou dead in its tracks. Additionally, Sylveon, Chansey, and Mega Venusaur (sans Extrasensory) can handle it sufficiently.

**Entry hazards and status**: Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic, and burn severely limit Raikou's longevity and general ability to last throughout the battle.

**Latios and Latias**: Both aren't really threatened too much by Raikou in general (though Latios has to watch out for the Shadow Ball 2HKO), able to switch in on most of its attacks and eliminate it with a Life Orb-boosted Psyshock no matter the set.
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From using Raikou, I think Volt Switch should be slashed with Extrasensory on the CM set. It is such an awesome pivot mid game and you can still clean up with Thunderbolt/HP Ice late game. I think Volt Switch is useful in more situations than Extrasensory.
 
Pinsir+ Talonflame forms a great heavy-offensive core with him, since both of them are pretty weak to flying priorities themselves and to Thundurus and AVRaikou check them nicely while keeping an offensive momentum, imo it should be mentionned in "Team options"
 
Maybe it's worth mentioning that Shadow Ball always 2HKOs Aegi on the Specs set (with hazards or a tiny bit of residual damage), something that Thunderbolt fails to do. Especially if you're using Raikou with MPinsir/Talonflame, covering Conk/MVenu isn't that important as they're both setup fodder.

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 142-168 (44 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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