Raikou - Thunderstruck

[LonelyNess]

<JabbaTheGriffin> Someone needs to make a thread on Raikou / Rhyperior / Alakazam / Froslass / Honchkrow
<LonelyNess> I will do
<LonelyNess> RAIKOU

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So this is going to be the official discussion thread of Raikou, since the mammoth thread is getting too big to house discussions of individual Pokemon.

Posts that you might want to read first.

Personally, I've found Raikou to be very broken. Its Speed is likely the cause of this, considering it can set up either a sub or CM before ~90% of the metagame, and then sweep just about any team, prepared or not. Raikou's defenses are not terrible at all; 90/75/100 is actually very good, allowing Raikou to survive the odd priority move. STAB Thunderbolt + HP Ice gets near perfect coverage, meaning that Raikou can afford to run Substitute and Calm Mind in the final two slots. My team has no solid answer to any well played Raikou, and if anyone has discovered one, I'm all ears. I have yet to use Raikou on my own team, but I plan on doing so with the next team I make (provided I'm not swept away with Heysup's Gravity ideas). So far, Raikou is BL in my eyes.

Raikou is actually the weakest, IMO. Swellow OHKOs, lol, and Venusaur comes in and can soak up its hits, used right.

Raikou also falls to Registeel, certain Regirock, Chansey, Regice, and many others.

It's actually pretty easy to get rid of Raikou's counters with a Honchkrow, especially Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur(the only Venusaur that has any business taking on Raikou) and Swords Dance Sceptile. Bring in 'kou once and lure out the Venusaur, switch to Honchkrow on their Earthquake / Sleep Powder, and then either Pursuit it on its way out (at which point they're going to be at 40% coming in the next time, easy pickings even with a resisted Thunderbolt) or hit it with Drill Peck or Brave Bird and take it out permanently.

With the only reason you'd use HP Ice out of the way, you can start to use HP Grass which takes care of Rhyperior and Quagsire.

Honchkrow also lures in Registeel / Donphan and does a decent enough amount of damage to where they can no longer handle a +1 Thunderbolt / Super Effective Hidden Power.

I somewhat agree with basically your entire post, except why wouldn't you use HP Water (you can IV it to keep the 31 Spe)? You can hit Steelix, Donphan, 4x Rhyperior, and basically everything Grass hits minus Quagsire. I think that's a pretty good trade off, considering Quagsire is very uncommon still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat LonelyNess
It's actually pretty easy to get rid of Raikou's counters with a Honchkrow, especially Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur(the only Venusaur that has any business taking on Raikou) and Swords Dance Sceptile. Bring in 'kou once and lure out the Venusaur, switch to Honchkrow on their Earthquake / Sleep Powder, and then either Pursuit it on its way out (at which point they're going to be at 40% coming in the next time, easy pickings even with a resisted Thunderbolt) or hit it with Drill Peck or Brave Bird and take it out permanently.

With the only reason you'd use HP Ice out of the way, you can start to use HP Grass which takes care of Rhyperior and Quagsire.

Honchkrow also lures in Registeel / Donphan and does a decent enough amount of damage to where they can no longer handle a +1 Thunderbolt / Super Effective Hidden Power.

This is quite an interesting point, as I actually agree that Honchkrow can be a lethally effective partner to Raikou. But, I think we disagree on the implications of this statement, as I believe that trying to argue that Raikou is BL in this way is getting the wrong end of the stick. The offensive characteristic requires that the Pokemon in question be able to sweep 'with little effort, which actually says nothing about the effect of outside influence. If we look carefully at the Honchkrow example given, we see that Raikou can only begin to sweep with little effort once Honchkrow has gone to the effort on its behalf, which by itself could be deemed as 'effortless'. What does this sound like? Why, the support characteristic of course! Honchkrow is the guilty party here as it is the one that is effortlessly providing the in-battle situation that allows another Pokemon (in this case Raikou) to fulfil the offensive characteristic.

I actually believe that Honchkrow is broken in much the same way (though not exactly the same) that Gallade is, i.e. the ability to effortlessly punch holes, but in the general case of your specific example. I have found that against the vast majority of teams, it is extremely easy for Honchkrow to inflict at least the equivalent of 100% damage to the opponent's team, and therefore punch a major hole in it. With 2-3 varied sweepers complementing Honchkrow, its effect will most often allow at least one of those sweepers to have a much easier time sweeping up. None of the surrounding sweepers are broken by themselves, but Honchkrow in fact is because of the effotless support it provides them.

I personally believe that the Support Characteristic should be split into two; Offensive Support and Defensive / Utility Support, and I would definitely nominate Honchkrow under the former.

I guess then it's up to debate whether or not the ease of which Raikou is supported, or the ease that its supporters support it is what's actually broken.

Absolutely, and I do respect your opinion should it be the former.

The reason I believe it is the latter is because Raikou's checks and counters are actually rather varied, more so than people seem to realize. With Honchkrow, it offensively supports sweepers in general. In any given battle, Honchkrow is probably not choosing its targets beforehand, but the general result is that something is punched into and heavily damaged, often something that at least one sweeper can exploit. It is the generality of its effect that I believe distinguishes it from the case of Raikou's 'supportability', which is arguably much less concrete from battle to battle.

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To respond to Lemmiwinks, most of Raikou's checks do require near full health to stop Raikou. Venusaur needs >50%, Registeel needs >60%, and these numbers aren't overly difficult to achieve. Hell, Registeel is going to take ~20% just for switching in to Ambipom once (and that's not even including the chance that Ambipom is running Low Kick specifically for Registeel.) Similarly, Venusaur is taking around 20% from an Azumarill Aqua Jet, and that damage isn't going anywhere unless you're running Synthesis (which is becoming increasingly unpopular).

What my main point is, is that the supportability of Raikou is essentially "do a small bit of damage to its checks." Not remove its checks, but just do a small amount of damage so that they're no longer at full health. It's not overly difficult to put 40% on a Venusaur, it's not overly difficult to put 30% on a Steelix / Registeel.... this is just damage that naturally goes on to those Pokemon throughout the course of a battle. Then your opponent brings in Raikou and bam, suddenly all of those Pokemon that you brought in to the match thinking they'd be ready for Raikou suddenly aren't. It's happened to me a lot, and I carry one check each to HP Water / Grass / Ice Raikou, and it still manages to sweep me 50% of the time. It seems like the only reasonable solution is to just slap a Chansey on the team but damn that feels a lot like when I used to slap Chansey on my team solely for Yanmega, and let me tell you... that didn't feel good.

 

[The_Chaser]

To me, Raikou is the most broken pokemon in UU atm, he is guaranteed at least one kill a game and if he has a chance to set up it basically means game over most of the time. I agree with Lonelyness that Raikou does chip away at its limited counters because of sub easing prediction. Once Raikou's counters are drawn out, it is quite common that they can then be beaten allowing Raikou to have a late game sweep.

 

[Class]

CM/Sub/T Bolt/HP Grass/Water Raikou (standard now I guess?) is absolutely ridiculous with Screens/Spike support. All of his counters become 1-2hkos and they can't kill him in return. And, of course, once said counter is gone, he easily kills the rest of the opponent's team with his 115 base speed. More broken than Gallade imo.

 

[Heysup]

I think one of the biggest arguments against Raikou is that it "has counters" before it sets up.

IMO, this argument is irrelevant to whether or not a Pokemon is BL or not. The ease in which Raikou can set up is beyond ridiculous, especially with the support of something like DS encore Alakazam. Raikou's counters no longer become counters if it uses a different Hidden Power, if it manages to get a free turn, if they have taken any previous damage etc. That's why I think Raikou is BL because the counters aren't reliable, even if they are numerous. Quality over Quantity.

What Class said above me holds true as well. Unless the opponent has something immune to Raikou's attacks, it is not a reliable counter.

 

[d2m]

So wait. You can enable a sweeper to sweep if you damage it's counters? THIS IS A NEW AND INTERESTING CONCEPT THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THOUGHT OF BEFORE.

All of these arguments for the new pokemon are completely ridiculous, and I'll tell you why: shock value. We dropped so many suspects into 1 metagame, we haven't figured out what to do with them yet. Once people learn the common sets and how to work around them, all this stuff will go away.

As far as Raikou is concerned, he's still stopped by everything that has stopped all powerful special sweepers in the past, like Sub/CM Mismagius (who is an amazing comparison, btw, with slightly lower base spe/SpA but drastically better defenses thanks to 3 immunities): UU Special walls. Not only that, but Raikou doesn't even get the unresisted Ghost/Fighting that Mismagius does without giving up the extremely powerful STAB Thunderbolt.

With entry hazards down, Raikou can't set up on much, really. Even though he has decent defenses (especially SpD and HP), his subs are still broken by things as weak as a min SpA Milotic Surf (30.22% - 35.83%). A LO Milotic's Hydro Pump, on the other hand will do (44.86% - 52.65%) to a +1 Raikou leaving it well within Priority range and begging for the Dugtrio switch in. Speaking of Dugtrio, he OHKOs with EQ while outspeeding AND trapping if Raikou doesn't have a sub.

Raikou has plenty of offensive checks like Venusaur and priority users and he can't really set up on too many pokemon you find on offensive teams due to the fact they will either consistently break his sub, threaten him, or reduce him to priority revenge range (and if you have ever played a hyper-offensive team, you know that sacrificing pokes to prevent setup sweepers from setting up is just part of the game, the "BUT YOU LOSE ONE POKEMON OH NOES!!1!!" argument does not apply as you have another dangerous priorty sweeper or revenge killer waiting in the wings to take up where your other sweeper left off).

You complain about using Chansey, but this situation is vastly different from Yanmega. Yanmega was forcing even the hyper offensive teams to slap a Registeel on their team in order to simply remain viable. Yanmega coming in 3 times (into SR) meant 3 kills on an offensive team if used correctly, whereas stall was reduced to using Registeel or Chansey. I don't see WHY using Registeel or Chansey on a stall team is a bad thing, they are the 2 best special utility walls in the tier and fit in great to the stall dynamic, being able to spread status, set up SR, sponge lots of hits, and the latter can be a cleric. The argument that "Stall teams have to use Chansey or Registeel" is a very bad one because well built stall teams will probably use them anyway (much like a vast majority of Ubers and OU stall teams use Blissey).

Edit: I forgot to mention that a lot of stall teams are overlooking Clefable. Clefable can take a +1 Thunderbolt and Encore either Sub or CM if he tries to set up on her. A simple Softboiled/Stoss/Encore/Twave (or Wish/protect over Twave and Softboiled) makes a great check to a ridiculous amount of the metagame.

 

[Heysup]

As far as Raikou is concerned, he's still stopped by everything that has stopped all powerful special sweepers in the past, like Sub/CM Mismagius (who is an amazing comparison, btw, with slightly lower base spe/SpA but drastically better defenses thanks to 3 immunities): UU Special walls. Not only that, but Raikou doesn't even get the unresisted Ghost/Fighting that Mismagius does without giving up the extremely powerful STAB Thunderbolt.

We all know how these special walls work in this heavily physical metagame. These Pokemon are EASILY removable/weakened enough to not be a counter anymore. I don't know which argument is a more valid one, your "Shock Value" argument, or your Special Wall argument....

With entry hazards down, Raikou can't set up on much, really. Even though he has decent defenses (especially SpD and HP), his subs are still broken by things as weak as a min SpA Milotic Surf (30.22% - 35.83%). A LO Milotic's Hydro Pump, on the other hand will do (44.86% - 52.65%) to a +1 Raikou leaving it well within Priority range and begging for the Dugtrio switch in. Speaking of Dugtrio, he OHKOs with EQ while outspeeding AND trapping if Raikou doesn't have a sub.

It doesn't have to be a max/max Raikou, I EV'd mine (with just 24 SpD EVs actually) to set up a sub with +1 against Milotic Surf, Blastoise Surf, Missy Shadow Ball, and Sceptile Energy Ball (and -2 Leaf Storm). It sets up too easily, that's the problem.

Raikou has plenty of offensive checks like Venusaur and priority users and he can't really set up on too many pokemon you find on offensive teams due to the fact they will either consistently break his sub, threaten him, or reduce him to priority revenge range (and if you have ever played a hyper-offensive team, you know that sacrificing pokes to prevent setup sweepers from setting up is just part of the game, the "BUT YOU LOSE ONE POKEMON OH NOES!!1!!" argument does not apply as you have another dangerous priorty sweeper or revenge killer waiting in the wings to take up where your other sweeper left off).

Oh boy. Try to use an offensive variant of Venusaur to counter or even check Raikou. I dare you!

Trust me, it does not work at all. Unless you are running shitty defensive Venusaur with Roar and Earthquake, you are going to get KOed really quickly against the legendary pooch. Oh, and this "shitty defensive" Venusaur has to be nicknamed "Honchkrow/Gallade Bait".

You complain about using Chansey, but this situation is vastly different from Yanmega. Yanmega was forcing even the hyper offensive teams to slap a Registeel on their team in order to simply remain viable. Yanmega coming in 3 times (into SR) meant 3 kills on an offensive team if used correctly, whereas stall was reduced to using Registeel or Chansey.

And the difference is, Raikou can come in on an offensive teams an unlimited amount of times and get 6 Kills on any given time at the right moment.

 

[LonelyNess]

So wait. You can enable a sweeper to sweep if you damage it's counters? THIS IS A NEW AND INTERESTING CONCEPT THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THOUGHT OF BEFORE.

I should have stopped reading right after this. Don't shit up this conversation with trolling.

You would have an argument against the "damage its counters" argument if I was expecting people to have to outright kill / do >70% to a counter in order for Raikou to sweep... but I'm not... Raikou's checks have to be at nearly FULL HEALTH in order to stop him consistently, which is incredibly easy to keep from happening.

As far as Raikou is concerned, he's still stopped by everything that has stopped all powerful special sweepers in the past, like Sub/CM Mismagius (who is an amazing comparison, btw, with slightly lower base spe/SpA but drastically better defenses thanks to 3 immunities): UU Special walls. Not only that, but Raikou doesn't even get the unresisted Ghost/Fighting that Mismagius does without giving up the extremely powerful STAB Thunderbolt.

I'm sorry but what UU special walls are stopping Raikou that were stopping Mismagius? Haze Milotic sure as hell isn't. Honchkrow sure as hell isn't. Drapion sure is hell isn't. Altaria isn't. Umbreon isn't. In fact.. I can't think of a single special wall that DOES pull double duty in beating both Mismagius and Raikou.

With entry hazards down, Raikou can't set up on much, really. Even though he has decent defenses (especially SpD and HP), his subs are still broken by things as weak as a min SpA Milotic Surf (30.22% - 35.83%). A LO Milotic's Hydro Pump, on the other hand will do (44.86% - 52.65%) to a +1 Raikou leaving it well within Priority range and begging for the Dugtrio switch in. Speaking of Dugtrio, he OHKOs with EQ while outspeeding AND trapping if Raikou doesn't have a sub.

I'm sorry but Min attack Milotic is probably the worst thing you would ever keep in on a Raikou. You have a point about Life Orb Milotic, but to be perfectly honest that Pokemon is so terrible in today's game that it's a liability to use (and anyway, Life Orb Milotic only accounted for 10% of Milotic's usage last month.. so it's hardly a common occurance for Raikou to run into it.)

Having Dugtrio on your team is lately a liability more often than not because it just doesn't hit very hard. I will agree though that Dugtrio's existance in the tier is significant... and as a "catch all" to Raikou if you're really that desperate... though the same nagging feeling that comes with using chansey often goes to the back of your brain.

Raikou has plenty of offensive checks like Venusaur

Did you not read any of the posts I made about Venusaur?

and priority users and he can't really set up on too many pokemon you find on offensive teams due to the fact they will either consistently break his sub, threaten him, or reduce him to priority revenge range

Why set up against Offensive teams when you can outspeed the majority with fantastic base 115 Spe and outright kill with his Thunderbolt? And I think you're underestimating just how many Pokemon Raikou can set up on, and unless you're relying on dodgy prediction (like using Waterfall with your Azumarill when it's facing Raikou in order to prevent its Sub from staying up), you're going to be facing a +1 Raikou more often than not.

You complain about using Chansey, but this situation is vastly different from Yanmega. Yanmega was forcing even the hyper offensive teams to slap a Registeel on their team in order to simply remain viable. Yanmega coming in 3 times (into SR) meant 3 kills on an offensive team if used correctly, whereas stall was reduced to using Registeel or Chansey. I don't see WHY using Registeel or Chansey on a stall team is a bad thing, they are the 2 best special utility walls in the tier and fit in great to the stall dynamic, being able to spread status, set up SR, sponge lots of hits, and the latter can be a cleric. The argument that "Stall teams have to use Chansey or Registeel" is a very bad one because well built stall teams will probably use them anyway (much like a vast majority of Ubers and OU stall teams use Blissey).

Did you even read what I said? I said I was having to put Chansey on EVERY team that I had... not just Stall.

 

[d2m]

I should have stopped reading right after this. Don't shit up this conversation with trolling.

You would have an argument against the "damage its counters" argument if I was expecting people to have to outright kill / do >70% to a counter in order for Raikou to sweep... but I'm not... Raikou's checks have to be at nearly FULL HEALTH in order to stop him consistently, which is incredibly easy to keep from happening.



I'm sorry but what UU special walls are stopping Raikou that were stopping Mismagius? Haze Milotic sure as hell isn't. Honchkrow sure as hell isn't. Drapion sure is hell isn't. Altaria isn't. Umbreon isn't. In fact.. I can't think of a single special wall that DOES pull double duty in beating both Mismagius and Raikou.



I'm sorry but Min attack Milotic is probably the worst thing you would ever keep in on a Raikou. You have a point about Life Orb Milotic, but to be perfectly honest that Pokemon is so terrible in today's game that it's a liability to use (and anyway, Life Orb Milotic only accounted for 10% of Milotic's usage last month.. so it's hardly a common occurance for Raikou to run into it.)

Having Dugtrio on your team is lately a liability more often than not because it just doesn't hit very hard. I will agree though that Dugtrio's existance in the tier is significant... and as a "catch all" to Raikou if you're really that desperate... though the same nagging feeling that comes with using chansey often goes to the back of your brain.



Did you not read any of the posts I made about Venusaur?



Why set up against Offensive teams when you can outspeed the majority with fantastic base 115 Spe and outright kill with his Thunderbolt? And I think you're underestimating just how many Pokemon Raikou can set up on, and unless you're relying on dodgy prediction (like using Waterfall with your Azumarill when it's facing Raikou in order to prevent its Sub from staying up), you're going to be facing a +1 Raikou more often than not.



Did you even read what I said? I said I was having to put Chansey on EVERY team that I had... not just Stall.

1: Your argument deserved it. It's literally a pathetic statement to say that something is powerful enough to consider BL status because it can sweep with weakened counters. You can say that about 99% of all offensive pokes ever.

2: Read what I said about offensive teams, because you're downright ignoring it. Offensive teams use sacrifices liberally as they burn through the opponent, they have to. If Raikou comes in, it's not getting a sub up or past +1 against nearly anything on an offensive team. Sure, it will kill whatever's out once it realizes it can't set up because Milotic is spamming Surf or Hydro Pump instead of fleeing out of fear of a Thunderbolt, then you bring in Dugtrio, a priority sweeper, or a scarfer (Arcanine and Hitmonlee are good examples respectively) and take it out.

3: Your argument is "It may not be at full health when Raikou comes out", which I already covered as utterly ridiculous in the scheme of things, but I'll bite even further. If Venusaur has taken that much damage on an offensive team, it's probably late game. Whatever is in gets sacrificed so taht Raikou doesn't get the sub or +1, Venusaur can take it out unless it has HP Ice (again, assuming he's taken over 30% damage otherwise doesn't matter), otherwise, you can send in Arcanine or Aggron or whatever else resists Ice (Quagsire would wall the ever living hell out of it, but we're talking offensive, remember?). Sure, counters are dependent on set, but what isn't? Sub/CM Missy at one point ran T-bolt and/or HP Ground to hit Honchkrow and Drapion respectively, which are 2 counters you mentioned that aren't really counters to that set.

4: If you're sticking Chansey on an offensive team, something's really wrong with your offensive team-building skills. Good use of scarfed revenge killers and priority attacks are essential for offensive teams, as is redundant type coverage wherever possible. Keep those principles in mind.

My offensive team never had any trouble with Raikou. He ripped apart my balance team, but I concede it wasn't well built and I really didn't test it out much before I made another offensive team that again had no trouble with Raikou.

Raikou is good in a Sub/CM Mismagius way, but not in a BL way.

Edit: Further musing: Mismagius may actually be more dangerous than Raikou, because Raikou really has precisely one set that 99% of people run, Sub/CM/Tbolt/HP(something). He's utterly predictable, which is a large advantage to those going against him. Missy now has NP or CM to boost with, Taunt or Substitute to use, a defensive set with WoW et. al. Etc. Raikou is severely limited by his movepool in a way that many sweepers aren't.

Edit Edit: HeySuP: Fully offensive Venusaur takes 70% max from HP Ice. It can come in, take the hit and OHKO easily.

 

[Mountain Dewgong]

Edit Edit: HeySuP: Fully offensive Venusaur takes 70% max from HP Ice. It can come in, take the hit and OHKO easily.

Okay, you assume that you have a 70%+ Venusaur, and that Raikou has already killed at least one pokemon already, as you can hardly switch the Venusaur into Raikou. Now, if I was in the Raikou-Venusaur situation, I'd see your EQ coming from a mile away, and switch in something like a Honchcrow. Now, you've just allowed your opponent to get another sweeper in unscathed. Your argument is moot.

 

[d2m]

Okay, you assume that you have a 70%+ Venusaur, and that it has already killed at least one pokemon already, as you can hardly switch the Venusaur into Raikou. Now, if I was in the Raikou-Venusaur situation, I'd see your EQ coming from a mile away, and switch in something like a Honchcrow. Now, what is Venusaur going to do? Your argument is moot.

Really? You're going to nitpick one of 4-5 examples I used and ignore the rest of the argument? For reference: Power whip also OHKOs Raikou assuming he either got damaged or attempted to set up a sub on the sacrificial lamb. Then the 70% is entirely contingent on him not running HP Grass, fighting, or anything but Ice, Fire, or (lol) Flying or Psychic.

Edit: Not only that, but you're pre-supposing you have Honchkrow and it's late game enough to survive an attack from a Venusaur (and the 25% from SR plus the BB recoil and LO means it's not likely), AND pre-supposing nothing can come in on that Honchkrow.

 

[LonelyNess]

1: Your argument deserved it. It's literally a pathetic statement to say that something is powerful enough to consider BL status because it can sweep with weakened counters. You can say that about 99% of all offensive pokes ever.

There's quite a difference when the amount the counters have to be weakened is only 30%.

2: Read what I said about offensive teams, because you're downright ignoring it. Offensive teams use sacrifices liberally as they burn through the opponent, they have to. If Raikou comes in, it's not getting a sub up or past +1 against nearly anything on an offensive team. Sure, it will kill whatever's out once it realizes it can't set up because Milotic is spamming Surf or Hydro Pump instead of fleeing out of fear of a Thunderbolt, then you bring in Dugtrio, a priority sweeper, or a scarfer (Arcanine and Hitmonlee are good examples respectively) and take it out.

Ok, let's say I just outright kill your Milotic with a Tbolt, then you bring in your Arcanine to do... what, 40% with Extremespeed (and that's WITH Life Orb) and then your Arcanine dies too (Tbolt does 65% minimum with 252 SpA neutral nature and no life orb)? Awesome tradeoff... 2 for 1 deal!

We're not talking about something that's physically frail like Alakazam or Gallade... Raikou has 90 / 75 Defenses, which is by no means stellar but at the same time it doesn't die when something sneezes on it, and a lot of Pokemon's unSTAB / unboosted priority isn't going to be enough to take it out. Azumarill can't even muster >50% on average with Aqua Jet... so yeah, taking a 50% from Hydro Pump from Milotic and killing it (really only 38% after two turns of Leftovers) and then still being able to take a hit from your awesome Priority sweepers does sound a bit broken to me.

3: Your argument is "It may not be at full health when Raikou comes out", which I already covered as utterly ridiculous in the scheme of things, but I'll bite even further. If Venusaur has taken that much damage on an offensive team, it's probably late game.

What do you mean "if venusaur has taken that much damage then it's the late game." What if I lead with a Kabutops and you bring in Venusaur to take Aqua Jet... it's already halfway to the point at which it can no longer stop Raikou... and I haven't even brought Honchkrow in to weaken you even further yet.

Venusaur can take it out unless it has HP Ice (again, assuming he's taken over 30% damage otherwise doesn't matter)

No, Venusaur only counters NON - HP Ice variants if it's at that health, because no Venusaur is OHKO'ing Raikou with Earthquake... period... If Sceptile can't do it, Venusaur can't do it. HP Ice varients can take it out at any health, 100% or not.

0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur is taking 493 Atk vs 236 Def & 301 HP (95 Base Power): 106 - 126 (35.22% - 41.86%), which is a 2HKO after 30% of residual damage... and since you can't OHKO with Earthquake, you're going to take 2 +1 hits (if you switch in on Calm Mind) guaranteed... or you're taking 3 +0 hits which can kill you with the same amount of residual damage.

Actually do your math before you spout off nonsense, especially if you're going to do so in a rude way.

Edit Edit: HeySuP: Fully offensive Venusaur takes 70% max from HP Ice. It can come in, take the hit and OHKO easily.

263 Atk vs 186 Def & 321 HP (100 Base Power): 204 - 240 (63.55% - 74.77%)

Yeah, Heysup, it OHKOs so easily that it just LOOKS like it doesn't OHKO at all.

 

[d2m]

There's quite a difference when the amount the counters have to be weakened is only 30%.



Ok, let's say I just outright kill your Milotic with a Tbolt, then you bring in your Arcanine to do... what, 40% with Extremespeed (and that's WITH Life Orb) and then your Arcanine dies too (Tbolt does 65% minimum with 252 SpA neutral nature and no life orb)? Awesome tradeoff... 2 for 1 deal!

We're not talking about something that's physically frail like Alakazam or Gallade... Raikou has 90 / 75 Defenses, which is by no means stellar but at the same time it doesn't die when something sneezes on it, and a lot of Pokemon's unSTAB / unboosted priority isn't going to be enough to take it out. Azumarill can't even muster >50% on average with Aqua Jet... so yeah, taking a 50% from Hydro Pump from Milotic and killing it (really only 38% after two turns of Leftovers) and then still being able to take a hit from your awesome Priority sweepers does sound a bit broken to me.



What do you mean "if venusaur has taken that much damage then it's the late game." What if I lead with a Kabutops and you bring in Venusaur to take Aqua Jet... it's already halfway to the point at which it can no longer stop Raikou... and I haven't even brought Honchkrow in to weaken you even further yet.



No, Venusaur only counters NON - HP Ice variants if it's at that health, because no Venusaur is OHKO'ing Raikou with Earthquake... period... If Sceptile can't do it, Venusaur can't do it. HP Ice varients can take it out at any health, 100% or not.

0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur is taking 493 Atk vs 236 Def & 301 HP (95 Base Power): 106 - 126 (35.22% - 41.86%), which is a 2HKO after 30% of residual damage... and since you can't OHKO with Earthquake, you're going to take 2 +1 hits (if you switch in on Calm Mind) guaranteed... or you're taking 3 +0 hits which can kill you with the same amount of residual damage.

Actually do your math before you spout off nonsense, especially if you're going to do so in a rude way.



263 Atk vs 186 Def & 321 HP (100 Base Power): 204 - 240 (63.55% - 74.77%)

Yeah, Heysup, it OHKOs so easily that it just LOOKS like it doesn't OHKO at all.

Jolly LO Venusaur EQ: (82.24% - 97.20%)
Jolly LO Venusaur Power Whip: (73.83% - 87.23%)

EQ Almost always OHKOs with SR (not even the damage from whatever it tried to set up on or spikes) and if you're paranoid about the switch, Power Whip will still OHKO it with any prior damage.

1) You're referring only to Venusaur in that case, I'd say that hardly considers all of it's "Counters", Registeel is at best 3HKO'd at +1 (31.59% - 37.36%) and easily 2HKOs with EQ (45.48% - 53.58%). Clefable takes (45.94% - 54.31%)* from a +1 T-bolt, but can switch in on the sub or CM and Encore it, giving you a free switch to a ground type, free heal on their switch, or free turn if it tried to set up. I'm not gonna bother with calcs for Chansey. Again, if it's an offensive team, you're not going to bother with counters (in the strictest sense) and focus on straight out sweeping and revenging.

2) If Arcanine is at full health and switches into SR, you can sac it for the FB kill, but it won't be the smart move in that case. Arcanine as an example was assuming Milotic got at least 1 hit in. Scarfed Hitmonlee or any Scarfed physical threat would be a better bet to revenge it at higher HP.

3) All the arguments against my examples seem to come down to theorymon about what if this/this/this. Even my "no problem with Raikou" teams have gotten swept by him due to poor play or bad luck, it happens. Assuming both players are competent and each has decent prediction skills (I tend to overpredict...a lot), then Raikou shouldn't be TOO much of a problem. It is a very powerful threat, one you can't ignore in teambuilding, but so is SD Feraligatr, Sub/CM or NP Mismagius, Alakazam, Gallade, etc. A good team should be able to deal with him in several different ways depending on the situation.

*Edit: It's running the Calm 252 HP/100 SpD set I used to run for Encore purposes.

 

[Chickensandwichk]

I don't know whether Raikou should be BL or UU since I haven't played UU in forever but I think the "Raikou's counters only need some previous damage before being easily swept by Raikou himself," is flawed. This can be said about most sweepers. If you say "Venasaur dies when it's at 50%, Registeel at 60%, etc.," then when do we stop? Is 50% an ok amount to stop at when using this argument? Can we go to 40%? 30%? Wouldn't the Pokemon/Condition causing these Pokemon to acquire this significant amount of damage be the Suspect instead of Raikou?

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Would Raikou's counters being significantly weakened be common battle conditions or does it require little effort? I could see how it may be common due to Gallade's brute force, Froslass' spikes, or some other powerful outside force but I'm not sure because like I said, I don't play UU. However, does not using these powerful outside forces require at least some sort of effort? I don't know, I don't play UU, but I it'd be hard for me to think otherwise. Personally, I think it is odd to purpose Raikou is broken because Venasaur and co. will commonly have significant damage allowing Raikou to sweep.

I think the strongest argument for Raikou being broken is that he sweeps teams (with or without previous setup does not matter) and that he can setup easily allowing for a "significant" sweep. I see someone posted that Raikou commonly gets 2-1 trades? Is KOing two Pokemon a significant portion of the team? I thought a significant portion or proportion was 80%+ but it has been a while since I last took a Stats class.

.8*6 = 4.8

If Raikou commonly and effortlessly sweeps 4 Pokemon and significantly damages another one, then cool, it's broken. If it commonly and effortlessly sweeps only 2 Pokemon, then wouldn't it not be broken due to the Offensive Characteristic? I'm assuming Raikou does not have a chance of breaking the other two characteristics. I see other people also posted that Raikou sweeps 4-6 Pokemon so that would satisfy this requirement but I think what is more important is what is the difference between Raikou sweeping 0-3 Pokemon and Raikou sweeping 4-6 Pokemon. Whatever is causing that difference is what should be Suspect/BL.

But yeah, I do not play UU and I've just been reading and trying to understand everyone's arguments. Good luck with the test. I can't wait for the results.

 

[Iluvtogekiss]

I read this through and I dont think I saw any mention of steelix as a potential raikou check/counter. I generally run lix as a way of dealing with raikou as it can take any of its common attacks pretty easily (barring hp fire ground water fighting which I havent really seen at all). Its also not like he is only sitting in your team for raikou countering exclusively when he can also be used to easily counter alot of dangerous threats such as honchkrow, ambipom, non hp fight mismagius, swellow, some espeon etc as well as providing a good way of setting up s.r.
AND even after taking on honchkrow and friends he generally still has enough hp left to take two neutral hidden powers from raikou and eq for the ko.
I like steelix alot.
Infact thinking about it, Raikou hasn't swept me once.
At max it hinders or kills maybe one to two pokemon, but usually it just scares Blastoise and stuff.

 

[Stagnant]

The ease in which Raikou can set up is beyond ridiculous, especially with the support of something like DS encore Alakazam.

Then I'd say Alakazam can be nominated under Support Char... not Raikou.

 

[d2m]

Then I'd say Alakazam can be nominated under Support Char... not Raikou.

Also ironically, Encore zam counters any Raikou attempting to set up as well.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'm sorry but what UU special walls are stopping Raikou that were stopping Mismagius? Haze Milotic sure as hell isn't. Honchkrow sure as hell isn't. Drapion sure is hell isn't. Altaria isn't. Umbreon isn't. In fact.. I can't think of a single special wall that DOES pull double duty in beating both Mismagius and Raikou.

Umbreon IS. Good luck trying to convince me otherwise.

Anyway, I think it would be best for the purposes of this discussion to draw up a list of Pokemon that are in some way or another viable in dealing with Raikou. I will also try to separate them into whether they would fit onto offense or defense more, although this is according to my own, possibly controversial, opinion, as well as what Pokemon are variable enough to overlap on both lists.

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on offensive / bulky offensive teams:

Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Rhyperior, Gallade, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Ambipom, Ampharos, Swellow, Venusaur, Nidoking, Leafeon, Alakazam, Regirock, Torterra, Mesprit, Electrode, Camerupt, Shedinja. And interestingly enough, Raikou itself (CM or Screens + Roar variant)

Note that I make this list with no discrimination as to what methods they can use to deal with Raikou or their current effectiveness. I have also avoided the obvious ‘slap on Choice Scarf’ to revenge-kill‘, as that would be cheap and pointless, stretching the list out to a rather innumerable amount. I have also not included the obvious strong priority users such as Arcanine, Azumarill and Kabutops to finish Raikou off at low health as they go without saying.

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on balanced-to-stall teams:

Chansey, Donphan, Clefable, all the Regis, Rhyperior, Umbreon, Steelix, Venusaur, Hariyama, Nidoqueen, Tangrowth, Claydol, Lanturn, Ampharos, Gastrodon, Lickilicky, Quagsire, Cradily, Shuckle, Torterra.

Now this list isn’t meant to be a way of saying ’look at all these answers to Raikou! Definitely not broken!’, as that would be plain stupid. It is meant more as a foundation to put Raikou’s overall ’threat range’ into perspective. With such a range of possible threats to Raikou on both the defensive and offensive side of the metagame, it is clear that we can rule out Raikou as being offensively broken in the same way as say Yanmega, who only had a handful of reliable checks or counters, or a Staraptor, who could threaten just about anything off the bat.

To be honest, I cannot take the argument that Raikou easily sweeps once everything is slightly weakened very seriously at all. The main reason being how you draw the line and define it as a common condition? This is important because even an obviously non-broken offensive threat like Swellow can sweep easily once the opponent’s Steelix is down to 20% for example. I could and probably would argue from a personal point of view that this isn’t too difficult to achieve with five other Pokemon, but that is largely irrelevant. The relevant point is how do you measure these things objectively? I’m at a loss here really, but we can at least try to place it in very general terms.

It can be argued that this condition is more easily met if said Pokemon’s ’threat range’ is rather small, and that the surrounding team can quite reasonably put this small group into non-threatening range through general play without obviously providing the concentrated support that shifts the Suspect focus away from Raikou entirely. For a Pokemon like Yanmega, I would deem this argument somewhat valid. For Raikou? No, because its threat range is far broader no matter what style of play you refer to. As far as offense goes, Raikou does not immediately 1-2HKO every Pokemon going, does not do anything to throw the general concepts of speed-checking / revenging etc out of the window, and certainly can’t be throw in at any point to take a pot-shot without fear of repercussions. As for stall, its main counters were staples already, and it can’t just brainlessly spam the same old strategy and expect to get anywhere. Moreover you are certainly not ’forced’ to stick a particular Pokemon on your team from a sample of a few that may or may not fit the style of your team. If you find yourself thinking that then you have a serious lack of creativity to be quite frank.

Since its reappearance, I have only been swept by Raikou once, and that time I got crit-haxed when it was behind a Reflect, and only had 3 Pokemon left. Those things happen from time to time no matter what Pokemon you are fighting. So I apologize if I happen to have a slightly biased view on Raikou, and can’t see the issue from the perspective of others that have exactly the same team-building options as I do.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Has anyone considered Roar + Synthesis Venusaur? With bulk, it sort of laughs off unboosted Thunderbolts and Hidden Powers, and erases the damage it took otherwise, so saying that Azumarrill is going to Aqua Jet it becomes pointless.

Also Encore Alakazam is a hilarous counter that screws any Sub or CM Raikou and sets up a Calm Mind of its own after the fact. Alakazam really isn't getting its chance to explore the metagame like it should because literally every team has Shadow Sneak Gallade or Spiritomb.

 

[iKitsune]

Also Encore Alakazam is a hilarous counter that screws any Sub or CM Raikou and sets up a Calm Mind of its own after the fact. Alakazam really isn't getting its chance to explore the metagame like it should because literally every team has Shadow Sneak Gallade or Spiritomb.

Its not really a counter though is it.

From what i can work it in my little time against Raikou is that with Rhyperior and a physical Venasaur as well as a load of priority you will be fine unless it crits your Venasaur and has Hp Grass.

Given Raikou's choice of either HP Grass or Ice in the second slot you can easily use it as an excellent supporter to many physical sweepers. Particularly if you are lucky and the opponent goes to the wrong counter and you use HP Grass on their Rhyperior. Youve just opened up a pretty good sweeping oppurtunity for Tauros or Kangaskhan. I think the real test of something being BL or Uber is the fact that you require two counters to them.

Finally writing this post on Raikou gave me an interesting idea.

Raikou @Leftovers/Life Orb

Calm Mind
Thunderbolt
HP Ice
Toxic


I havent tested this and is probably best placed in Creative movesets but i think Raikou could pretty much demolish the metagame with this set. Spam Toxic from the off hitting any Rhyperiors and Quagsires crippling them CM up and sweep or open up the sweep for a Normal as previously mentioned or a Feraligatr.

 

[Thund91]

Without Subtitute you're susceptible to priority and paralyzation. A paralyzed Raikou isn't sweeping anything anytime soon.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Hmm, I remeber trying a Thunderbolt/Toxic/Substitute/Magnet Rise Magnezone to great effect in OU, and I think Thunderbolt/Toxic/Substitute/Calm Mind can work as well in UU. So, continuing on from iKitsune's post:

Raikou @ Leftovers

Calm Mind
Thunderbolt
Substitute
Toxic

This set can come in early on, Toxic the counters and switch out. It can also set up substitutes at a later stage just to stall out said counters. The only Ground-types that resists Toxic are Steelix, Nidoqueen and Nidoking, and they can be handled with by Milotic and friends and aren't that common while lacking recovery anyway. I think this set does have potential, but hey, if it doesn't stand a chance who am I to blame for trying?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Hmm, I remeber trying a Thunderbolt/Toxic/Substitute/Magnet Rise Magnezone to great effect in OU, and I think Thunderbolt/Toxic/Substitute/Calm Mind can work as well in UU. So, continuing on from iKitsune's post:

Raikou @ Leftovers

Calm Mind
Thunderbolt
Substitute
Toxic

This set can come in early on, Toxic the counters and switch out. It can also set up substitutes at a later stage just to stall out said counters. The only Ground-types that resists Toxic are Steelix, Nidoqueen and Nidoking, and they can be handled with by Milotic and friends and aren't that common while lacking recovery anyway. I think this set does have potential, but hey, if it doesn't stand a chance who am I to blame for trying?

What if the counter that comes in turns out to be Umbreon? You will need some Cleric support as well.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Well, I think that's a bit too situational, imo. Besides - what can an Umbreon do to a Raikou? I don't think anyone will switch one in as it's obvious set-up fodder.

I do need to check this idea in action first though, as there may be other problems that'll arise.

 

[whistle]

umbreon's payback breaks subs while toxic kills raikou

edit: lanturn is set up bait unless you get in a toxic or a thunder wave

 

[Zach]

Lanturn resists Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice, it can Surf the subs etc. I don't know however if Raikou wins in the long run due to CM...