Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Magnemite]

oh also we decided to redo the lower ranks a bit so here's the results of that:

Furfrou from C+ to C
Luxray from C+ to C
Munchlax from C to C-
Seviper from C to D
Persian from C- to D
Natu from D to C-
Onix from D to unlisted
Frogadier from D to unlisted
Girafarig from D to E
Trapinch from D to C-

Also, friendly reminder that with the tier shift coming up, PLEASE DO NOT POST ABOUT DROPS UNTIL YOU HAVE HAD SUFFICIENT TIME TO TEST THEM. Posts like "I think Roselia should move down to A+ because Pawniard can switch into it for free" are also not acceptable, again until you've had time to test the new metagame. Posts about mons largely unaffected by the tier shift are still okay, but theorymon needs to go in the NP thread.

 

[Magnemite]

Yay triple posting but we now have amazing new art by Bummer:

 

[Teddeh]

I'd like to support the nomination of stout to S for several reasons.

• PU as a meta is extremely slow for the most part, so having a banded scrappy stout on most teams with facade for missy and even if not, carrying superpower + crunch to hit things, it's just extremely good at breaking things. Not only is it that, it's got a 4th move that is always available for something odd / whatever the team needs. This could be facade, pursuit (personally my favourite) or even wild charge for the rare defensive peli.
• The sand rush stout is just amazing, it tears apart offensive teams which are used to beat the balance teams, whilst hippo is just getting better and better nowadays with the removal of pilo from PU, it makes it easy to choose a team of 4 and slap on hippo + stout at the end. Either way, it's just way too good at its job.
• Also, a lot of stout's checks / counters lose teams momentum. Vullaby is weak to rocks, so naturally you'll have to sack to go in if you don't have a normal resist for normal type moves. Tangela sucks offensive momentum. Relicanth has no real threat against most teams, especially the defensive variants and even then they're 3 hit ko'd by superpowers. Solrock is a no-no, and so on and so forth.
• Nothing in PU can take advantage of a stoutland or can force a player to think twice before clicking its move, there is literally 0 opportunity cost when using this pokemon and it's simply so good.

There is no reason to not put it in S for the role it fulfills in this tier.

 

[MaroGod]

I'd like to support the nomination of stout to S for several reasons.

• PU as a meta is extremely slow for the most part, so having a banded scrappy stout on most teams with facade for missy and even if not, carrying superpower + crunch to hit things, it's just extremely good at breaking things. Not only is it that, it's got a 4th move that is always available for something odd / whatever the team needs. This could be facade, pursuit (personally my favourite) or even wild charge for the rare defensive peli.
• The sand rush stout is just amazing, it tears apart offensive teams which are used to beat the balance teams, whilst hippo is just getting better and better nowadays with the removal of pilo from PU, it makes it easy to choose a team of 4 and slap on hippo + stout at the end. Either way, it's just way too good at its job.
• Also, a lot of stout's checks / counters lose teams momentum. Vullaby is weak to rocks, so naturally you'll have to sack to go in if you don't have a normal resist for normal type moves. Tangela sucks offensive momentum. Relicanth has no real threat against most teams, especially the defensive variants and even then they're 3 hit ko'd by superpowers. Solrock is a no-no, and so on and so forth.
• Nothing in PU can take advantage of a stoutland locked into a move on the banded set or can force a player to think twice before clicking its move, there is literally 0 opportunity cost when using this pokemon and it's simply so good.

There is no reason to not put it in S for the role it fulfills in this tier.

Two issues with this.

1.Literally just went over this one page ago

And more importantly

2.the tier shift happening in a day or two.

 

[MZ]

I'd like to support the nomination of stout to S for several reasons.

And I'd like to shoot it down for several reasons :[

PU as a meta is extremely slow for the most part

no

so having a banded scrappy stout on most teams with facade for missy and even if not, carrying superpower + crunch to hit things, it's just extremely good at breaking things. Not only is it that, it's got a 4th move that is always available for something odd / whatever the team needs. This could be facade, pursuit (personally my favourite) or even wild charge for the rare defensive peli.

Stoutland has a fairly easy speed benchmark to beat for offensive teams, in my opinion its speed is one of the main factors for why it didn't move up. Offensive teams have 5 members faster than it, and when combined with some sort of check it's much easier to beat than something like Ursaring or Dodrio. I also don't think customizable is a great argument. You're rarely clicking more than two moves, and any filler in the last slot isn't really providing any major team support. It's not like Simipour which can fuck you over with knock off, low kick, or NP depending on what the team needs. Linoone can take out Tangela with Gunk Shot, Probopass with Rock Smash, or just run shadow claw and hit geist/dusk/whatever. Stout's maybe getting a good prediction off and crunching a metang in like 5% of its games.

The sand rush stout is just amazing, it tears apart offensive teams which are used to beat the balance teams, whilst hippo is just getting better and better nowadays with the removal of pilo from PU, it makes it easy to choose a team of 4 and slap on hippo + stout at the end. Either way, it's just way too good at its job.

Honestly I don't even think sand is that great considering how offense still has a number of ways to not just lose to Stoutland, and non eviolite hippo is definitely nothing to write home about. It's also important to note that scrappy stout is the most important set to push it over to S rank, this is really more of an afterthought since it's both worse and less common. Still, that's more of a discussion for the NP thread, and I know a lot of other people like sand.

Also, a lot of stout's checks / counters lose teams momentum. Vullaby is weak to rocks, so naturally you'll have to sack to go in if you don't have a normal resist for normal type moves. Tangela sucks offensive momentum. Relicanth has no real threat against most teams, especially the defensive variants and even then they're 3 hit ko'd by superpowers. Solrock is a no-no, and so on and so forth.

These are all good pokemon but the complaint is you have to run them for stoutland? Vullaby's shot up in VR for how nice it is, it's got an actually customizable moveset (I swear no defog isn't ass), and automatically checks a ton of stuff. If you need to switch Vullaby into rocks and take a hit from stout then it's unfortunate, but that doesn't really reflect on Vullaby being bad or a liability. Tangela doesn't lack offensive momentum, offensive sets hit really hard and defensive ones, the more common set, still carry knock off and sleep powder to fuck with switch-ins. The fact that you even consider relicanth no real threat is ridiculous, it only has 3 reliable switch-ins in Tangela, Geist and Quilladin and a handful of bulkier checks without recovery like Machoke and Gabite, and it can also Rock Polish up whenever it wants to. Solrock is a fine mon, so good argument.

Nothing in PU can take advantage of a stoutland locked into a move on the banded set

Except Relicanth. And Kingler. And if it's locked into superpower or Pursuit, practically anything in the tier can set up on it. Or you could just revenge it, either way.
Edit: Anty wants me to point out that we have klang, a ton of normal resists that can set up SR or fire off free attacks, and in general you don't have to take advantage of it by specifically setting up to sweep

or can force a player to think twice before clicking its move

Except when they run a normal resist, that tends to get in the way.

there is literally 0 opportunity cost when using this pokemon and it's simply so good.

Except the somewhat worse matchup versus offense and the fact that you aren't running a different wall breaker that may be of more use and you've just added another middling speed Pokemon with a single resist/immunity to support its team.

There is no reason to not put it in S for the role it fulfills in this tier.

lol

Shifts are coming anyway but I really had to respond to this post and some of the blatantly wrong things with it.

Oh and just for the record, stout's good. But it comes with an opportunity cost and without a ton of customizability, unlike our current S ranks

 

[ManOfMany]

I think the tier shift is extremely important for any noms of Stoutland, because Primeape is coming which can easily revenge Stoutland (offensive teams can get annoyed because they are unable to revenge a full-health Stoutland. No more). Also, Bouffalant will cause it to face a small amount of competition in the normal type role, and Pawniard can easily set up on a locked Return.

 

[Teddeh]

And I'd like to shoot it down for several reasons :[

no

Stoutland has a fairly easy speed benchmark to beat for offensive teams, in my opinion its speed is one of the main factors for why it didn't move up. Offensive teams have 5 members faster than it, and when combined with some sort of check it's much easier to beat than something like Ursaring or Dodrio. I also don't think customizable is a great argument. You're rarely clicking more than two moves, and any filler in the last slot isn't really providing any major team support. It's not like Simipour which can fuck you over with knock off, low kick, or NP depending on what the team needs. Linoone can take out Tangela with Gunk Shot, Probopass with Rock Smash, or just run shadow claw and hit geist/dusk/whatever. Stout's maybe getting a good prediction off and crunching a metang in like 5% of its games.


Honestly I don't even think sand is that great considering how offense still has a number of ways to not just lose to Stoutland, and non eviolite hippo is definitely nothing to write home about. It's also important to note that scrappy stout is the most important set to push it over to S rank, this is really more of an afterthought since it's both worse and less common. Still, that's more of a discussion for the NP thread, and I know a lot of other people like sand.


These are all good pokemon but the complaint is you have to run them for stoutland? Vullaby's shot up in VR for how nice it is, it's got an actually customizable moveset (I swear no defog isn't ass), and automatically checks a ton of stuff. If you need to switch Vullaby into rocks and take a hit from stout then it's unfortunate, but that doesn't really reflect on Vullaby being bad or a liability. Tangela doesn't lack offensive momentum, offensive sets hit really hard and defensive ones, the more common set, still carry knock off and sleep powder to fuck with switch-ins. The fact that you even consider relicanth no real threat is ridiculous, it only has 3 reliable switch-ins in Tangela, Geist and Quilladin and a handful of bulkier checks without recovery like Machoke and Gabite, and it can also Rock Polish up whenever it wants to. Solrock is a fine mon, so good argument.


Except Relicanth. And Kingler. And if it's locked into superpower or Pursuit, practically anything in the tier can set up on it. Or you could just revenge it, either way.
Edit: Anty wants me to point out that we have klang, a ton of normal resists that can set up SR or fire off free attacks, and in general you don't have to take advantage of it by specifically setting up to sweep

Except when they run a normal resist, that tends to get in the way.

Except the somewhat worse matchup versus offense and the fact that you aren't running a different wall breaker that may be of more use and you've just added another middling speed Pokemon with a single resist/immunity to support its team.

lol

Shifts are coming anyway but I really had to respond to this post and some of the blatantly wrong things with it.

Oh and just for the record, stout's good. But it comes with an opportunity cost and without a ton of customizability, unlike our current S ranks

There was so much sarcasm in this post, it almost makes me not want to post again holy shit. You need to take it down a notch on someone who doesn't know the tier that well and is attempting to make a contribution >:C
Excuse me for my exaggerations with a few of my points, I shall attempt in this post make them clearer.
Stout from my own personal experience, has been extremely good at bypassing its checks and counters being those that check it or counter it. But I appear to have emphasized the choiced set far too much in my post, for I don't even use it or haven't even used it myself, i was going by what others had told me. I personally feel that stout is recognizably good for its ability to hit everything with neutral coverage, and from my experience with sand rush stout, I would say that it was extremely good against offense.
I have only used eviolite hippo on my stout teams and it actually acts as more than a pokemon that gets up sand and fodder, so I apologise for my clarity being foggy when talking about it.
Secondly, the meta for the most part isn't that fast. Yes, every team has a floatzel / zeb, but that's 1-2 pokemon on each team. Stout then outspeeds 4-5 of an opponents team and can then fire off attacks. Furthermore, it can even live hits from faster pokemon with its impressive bulk.
Thirdly, yes I may have repeated other peoples points, but I didn't read the thread previous to this and I wanted a better knowledge of PU before I decide to post my opinion on it.

Yes, I agree that tier shifts hurt it and honestly I didn't even know shifts were happening because I didn't pay attention to dates, from that I agree that if the tier is changing, there is no point for changing the viability, however for the current meta that we are in pre-shifts, i feel it deserves S.

 

[Dundies]

As for Stoutland, I would've definitely supported it going to S, but I think it's best that we wait until after the next shift to make a final decision on it. Now I'm going to make a nom of my own.

-->A+
This is pretty self-explanatory. Kadabra is the best revenge killer in the tier, and it's extremely hard to switch into, especially if you're running Life Orb. Magic Guard in a meta dominated by hazards is pretty amazing, and Kadabra is so easy just to throw on a team. Weak to Linoone? Here's a check. Nothing for SD Monferno? Add Kadabra to your team. Kadabra does a really nice job of applying pressure on offense, which is really common, and is a pretty strong balance breaker as well. It gets pretty good support options in Encore and Taunt, and can basically make any offensive mon useless with Thunder Wave. The bottom of A+ is a good spot for it tbh, and I honestly think it's better than Jumpluff, but thats just me.

 

[Kingler]

Yo so I just wanna back up some stuff about Stout, defos seems like an S rank at this point in time

And I'd like to shoot it down for several reasons :[
Stoutland has a fairly easy speed benchmark to beat for offensive teams, in my opinion its speed is one of the main factors for why it didn't move up. Offensive teams have 5 members faster than it, and when combined with some sort of check it's much easier to beat than something like Ursaring or Dodrio. I also don't think customizable is a great argument. You're rarely clicking more than two moves, and any filler in the last slot isn't really providing any major team support. It's not like Simipour which can fuck you over with knock off, low kick, or NP depending on what the team needs. Linoone can take out Tangela with Gunk Shot, Probopass with Rock Smash, or just run shadow claw and hit geist/dusk/whatever. Stout's maybe getting a good prediction off and crunching a metang in like 5% of its games.

I mean you don't even need customization lmao you just run the band set and truck most shit really hard (RIP scarf stout, you were the manliest set). Just because stout doesn't "lure" stuff with its coverage moves doesnt mean that it shouldn't be S. Also isn't it a good thing that you get more output for less of a need to predict (return for almost everything, superpower if you think a relicanth/probo is coming in)???

Honestly I don't even think sand is that great considering how offense still has a number of ways to not just lose to Stoutland, and non eviolite hippo is definitely nothing to write home about. It's also important to note that scrappy stout is the most important set to push it over to S rank, this is really more of an afterthought since it's both worse and less common. Still, that's more of a discussion for the NP thread, and I know a lot of other people like sand.

that was mostly just for versatility, which is an important component of being S. stoutland is mainly just strong as shit, but it's not completely one-dimensional (please don't delve into semantics over this while quoting this post)

These are all good pokemon but the complaint is you have to run them for stoutland? Vullaby's shot up in VR for how nice it is, it's got an actually customizable moveset (I swear no defog isn't ass), and automatically checks a ton of stuff. If you need to switch Vullaby into rocks and take a hit from stout then it's unfortunate, but that doesn't really reflect on Vullaby being bad or a liability. Tangela doesn't lack offensive momentum, offensive sets hit really hard and defensive ones, the more common set, still carry knock off and sleep powder to fuck with switch-ins. The fact that you even consider relicanth no real threat is ridiculous, it only has 3 reliable switch-ins in Tangela, Geist and Quilladin and a handful of bulkier checks without recovery like Machoke and Gabite, and it can also Rock Polish up whenever it wants to. Solrock is a fine mon, so good argument.

Ok I don't see how ANY vullaby set is switching into stoutland, stealth rocks or no. Possible situation:
-Stoutland is in against xyz threat that it forces out
-you go vulla (252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 141-166 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
-Stoutland spams return fishing for a crit while vullaby has to keep roosting in order to not get KOed the turn after
At best you do 53-63% with foul play so your best case scenario is a 1v1 trade WITHOUT SR being up. You're really overestimating the ability of stuff to wall stoutland. Ofc if it's a 1v1 and vullaby hasn't taken SR damage prior you win, granted, but can you really call that a sufficient check lol

Also @ Tangela - 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You mentioned offensive tangela which is why i bring up this calc but Tangela can't immediately threaten stout anyways bar sleep powder (and such a situation even 1v1 would compel you to sleep powder when tangela is weakened to the point where return 2hkoes even w/ Giga, meaning a sleep absorber can easily get in)

(counterargument to nothing takes advantage of CB moves)
Except Relicanth. And Kingler. And if it's locked into superpower or Pursuit, practically anything in the tier can set up on it. Or you could just revenge it, either way.
Edit: Anty wants me to point out that we have klang, a ton of normal resists that can set up SR or fire off free attacks, and in general you don't have to take advantage of it by specifically setting up to sweep

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 217-256 (86.1 - 101.5%) huh?? I guess you could make an argument for superpower being taken advantage of but that's literally predicting the rock-type switch-in; how are you getting kingler in without a sac?
And regarding relicanth, ok the standard RP one takes ~30ish from return and can even use leftovers which is great but 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 104 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 306-360 (83.3 - 98%) so one wrong mispredict can go really wrong. You need to sac something to get a free switch and clean or w/e.

Except when they run a normal resist, that tends to get in the way.

All of the ones you're mentioned/referred to (relicanth, probo, klang etc) get 2hkoed at the very least by CB superpower (like i guess 252/252+ def relicanth avoids it but lol you're forced to rest). Nothing can come in on stout, force it out while threatening offensive pressure and not have to waste a turn recovering or something RELIABLY.

Oh also there's solrock I guess which avoids the 2HKO regardless and threatens a will-o-wisp which i missed, guess there's that.

I hope this didn't sound snide or w/e, if it was so didn't mean it that way =/

edit- o i forgot the bad against offense thing; it doesn't like facing a lot of faster stuff but it is surprisingly bulky, that's something to keep in mind

 

[MZ]

No, I'm not saying I even think customization or versatility were relevant to the nom, but they were brought up as potential reasons. I think it's pretty clear that the mediocre matchup versus offense (yes this tier is fast lol) is what's potentially keeping it out which was all I really needed to reiterate. I do think that vullaby is a solid check to stoutland and a balance team simply having that plus a normal resist gives it a decent amount of counterplay around it in practice, which was sort of the drift of the later parts, in general some bulky normal resist/can take normal hits + obligatory fighting resist works fine around it. Ik you sorta changed your mind on skype but yeah

 

[Raiza]

Yeah I definitely support this argument above, and basically I'm opposing to Stoutland nomination to S too. Now, I don't know and remember if Stoutland was S some time ago, but during PUPL or maybe a little later too, that was the time I could've seen it in that rank. The metagame was way more prone to the use of bulky offense / balanced teams, which struggled against Stoutland because of the slower speed tier, Stoutland was kind of hard to take down for these kind of teams that were weaker on the offensive side, as it has ok bulk and Facade allowed it to induce fear into status users, also some of the common checks such as Vullaby weren't that popular at the time. At the moment, hyper offense teams are slightly more popular than the other playstyles, correct me if I'm wrong since I just came back, and the tier is full with fast powerhouses, hell even slow-ish Pokemon such as Relicanth now abuse Rock Polish, because of that the reasons to use Stoutland are less, hence why I'm opposing to this.
Also I would wait tier shifts before proposing important changes such as this one.

 

[Magnemite]

Added our new friends to the top of the rankings, again reminder that

Also, friendly reminder that with the tier shift coming up, PLEASE DO NOT POST ABOUT DROPS UNTIL YOU HAVE HAD SUFFICIENT TIME TO TEST THEM. Posts like "I think Roselia should move down to A+ because Pawniard can switch into it for free" are also not acceptable, again until you've had time to test the new metagame. Posts about mons largely unaffected by the tier shift are still okay, but theorymon needs to go in the NP thread.

 

[sdrumapapere]

I think that Avalugg should be at least B-rank.
After a few Curses can stop almost any physical attacker.

Like an A rank Rapidash, with +2 Defense (uninvested stat), a Life Orb Flare Blitz is barely a 3HKO.
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. +2 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(EQ does more than 150%)

Another example (vs B-Rank pokémon):
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 134-162 (34 - 41.2%) -- 57.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 220-261 (62.1 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


As you can see, uninvested atk stat Avalanche does loads of damage in return, unless it hits a water, steel, ice or fire type.
But Avalugg can learn Earthquake for those. (and if they fly, they are neutral to Avalanche)
Plus it is a reliable Rapid Spinner.
Plus it gets RECOVER.
Plus it gets sturdy, so it can take a special attack from full and retaliate with Avalanche-EQ.

I think for the defense he deserves more than A-rank.
But it has a quite low special defense, so I think B-rank would be fine for him.

That's my opinion of course.

 

[Cheryl.]

I think that Avalugg should be at least B-rank.
After a few Curses can stop almost any physical attacker.

Like an A rank Rapidash, with +2 Defense (uninvested stat), a Life Orb Flare Blitz is barely a 3HKO.
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. +2 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(EQ does more than 150%)

Another example (vs B-Rank pokémon):
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 134-162 (34 - 41.2%) -- 57.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 220-261 (62.1 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


As you can see, uninvested atk stat Avalanche does loads of damage in return, unless it hits a water, steel, ice or fire type.
But Avalugg can learn Earthquake for those. (and if they fly, they are neutral to Avalanche)
Plus it is a reliable Rapid Spinner.
Plus it gets RECOVER.
Plus it gets sturdy, so it can take a special attack from full and retaliate with Avalanche-EQ.

I think for the defense he deserves more than A-rank.
But it has a quite low special defense, so I think B-rank would be fine for him.

That's my opinion of course.

When did Curse Avalugg become a thing? Also, Avalugg has a lot of problems, including his booty speed and special defense, and also his ass defensive typing. Also, how can it fit Curse, Avalanche, Rapid Spin, EQ, and Recover in the same set? Well, it can't, that's the thing. Overall, I think avalugg is just fine in C+.

 

[Tect]

OMG, It's beginning....NOOOOOO!!!!!....Curse avalugg isnt viable and using words like booty is rather meh. SpD Rapid Spin/Toxic, Roar, EQ/Recover/Avalanche Avalugg or MAYBE offensive rapid spin avalugg with crunch are its only REAL sets. Just read the analysis and you'll find everything you need to know there. Please, people, try and be more informed before posting here. It saves alot of time and explaining.

 

[Rennyjesus]

When did Curse Avalugg become a thing? Also, Avalugg has a lot of problems, including his booty speed and special defense, and also his ass defensive typing. Also, how can it fit Curse, Avalanche, Rapid Spin, EQ, and Recover in the same set? Well, it can't, that's the thing. Overall, I think avalugg is just fine in C+.

You forgot Toxic since is almost the only thing that it could at least cripple Pelipper that is a really frequent switch in...

There are sooooo many things that make Avalugg life pretty miserable, and Gorebyss, Exeggutor (While it can't switch on Avalanche, it can destroy Lugg with Leaf Storm. 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes), and even Bouf (that can kinda easily setup with Swords Dance and blow lugg out) just are the icing on the cake... If you want a spinner, just use Armaldo, or switch to a defogger like Pelipper, Vullaby, Vibrava or Swanna...

So, I don't feel there is something that could make Avalugg better right now...

 

[Take Azelfie]

So exeggutor, um is in my opinion A- to S rank. Why?

• STAB Life Orb/Choice Specs Leaf storm hurts everything that isn't resisted or Sap Sipper Bouffalant.
• Pokemon who do resist it like Tangela, Roselia, and Simisage don't like taking a Hidden Power Fire, Sludge Bomb, or a Psychic.
• It may be slow but any type of speed control on top of a base 125 attack is really threatening (Tailwind, Sticky Web, Sunny Day)
• His coverage in STABs allows Egg to hit a lot of what it needs to.
• Also has access to Sleep Powder so it can put something to sleep.

The things that hold him back

• Low speed can make him revenge killed
• That U-turn weakness
• His special defense is also bad.
• A lot of special defensive walls and ghost types can take hits.

I could probably think of more but I'm tired at the moment.
I definitely think Egg is higher tier and if you want my FULL placement I think it should go before Machoke.

 

[dodmen]

Well it's been a few days and I've done a fair amount of battling, so I'd like to post my thoughts on a couple of things.

First of all, Pawniard is clearly the most influential drop, packing a coveted Steel typing that provides a much-needed check to Grass-, Flying-, and Normal-types while also providing stellar offensive pressure, something that other Steel-types in the tier simply can't do. It checks 2/3 of the S mons and 4/5 of the A+ ranked mons (and it only needs a few rounds of Stealth Rock and LO recoil to check the 5th, Zebstrika), is a huge threat to literally every playstyle from defensive balance to Sticky Web HO, and only has a handful of true checks. It's also pretty flexible in its fourth moveslot, meaning it can run Swords Dance (especially helpful in getting past Vigoroth) or Pursuit to trap any offensive 'mon that fears Sucker Punch (useful for getting rid of Scarfers to support something like Gorebyss or DD Fraxure) as well as a fair number of defensive 'mons, or even Low Kick to take care of Probopass and other Pawniard easily. The amount it can bring to a team both defensively and offensively is really amazing; because of all this it seems to be one of the most splashable 'mons in the tier and should be placed in mid- to high-A+.

The other drop I've done the most testing on is Exeggutor who's a pretty unique addition to the tier. What it lacks in Speed or bulk that other Grass-types have, it makes up for it sheer power in the ability to put most of its switchins to sleep. It can also be rather hard to play around depending on the set; for example Specs just demolishes pretty much every switchin (OHKOing Pawniard, OHKOing Grumpig after SR, and 2HKOing Probopass with Leaf Storm, 2HKOing Lickilicky and tank Regice with Psyshock, Ancientpower boosting vs Vullaby,,) while Sunny Day can do some decent late-game cleaning even against bulky teams thanks to LO SolarBeam and Sleep Powder. It also finds its fair share of opportunities to come onto the field against all the Rock- and Ground-types that teams have to check stuff like Stoutland and Dodrio. However, due to its lack of Speed, mediocre bulk, and garbage defensive typing, it's not terribly difficult to revenge kill (even under Sun, as most Scarfers outspeed it anyway), and the metagame is adapting quickly to it with things like HP Bug Stunfisk and Megahorn Sawsbuck being used. I'd say Exeggutor is a high-A rank threat currently due to its superb offensive presence, but held back by a couple flaws.

I don't have much to say about the other drops as I haven't used them enough yet, but another thought I've been having is Roselia's position in the tier. Nearly every one of the new drops in Bouffalant, Exeggutor, Pawniard, and Gothitelle straight up beat or set up on it, and it even struggles against Gorebyss, having to be at absolutely full HP to take a +2 Modest Ice Beam after Stealth Rock damage. However, not only does it struggle in the individual matchup against the new members of the tier, but the overall metagame has shifted towards a highly offensive one compared to October. Roselia truly shines when it can come in against bulky, more passive Pokemon like Politoed and Clefairy and take advantage of them to set up Spikes, but from what I've experienced the metagame has begun to favor more offensive builds that can handle the new threats in Bouffalant, Exeggutor, and Gorebyss, which have the potential to wipe out more passive teams. Of course, it's too early to straight up drop Roselia to A+ while people are still experimenting with the metagame, but I think that a drop should be considered over the next couple days/week because of the reasons above. For now, it definitely feels like less of an S-rank 'mon than Vigoroth or Floatzel though.

Lastly, I think B+ is underselling Monferno currently. Between its two STABs, it's very hard to switch into and a lot of teams have to rely on the sheer bulk of something like Stunfisk to properly switch into it. It can also threaten the few Pokemon that do resist its STABs with U-turn and Thunderpunch. It sits at a decent Speed tier and outspeeds a lot of bulky offensive threats. What I've found Monferno to truly excel at is supporting a teammate by crushing checks with either its mixed LO set or its SD Eviolite set; Pokemon like SD Pawniard, Scarf Dodrio, and Ninjask all appreciate the pressure it puts on their checks. Qualitatively, I'd say its offensive presence is similar to A- ranked threats like Simisage and Mightyena. It also provides offense, especially Webs offense, to the best check to Pawniard available.

TL;DR Pawniard should be ranked in A+, Exeggutor should be ranked in A, Monferno should be moved to A-, Roselia should be considered for a drop.

 

[MaroGod]

Zweilous+Murkrow from B- to B
Two pokemon that have become much more useful due to the tier shift.

Zweilous - Becoming one of the more reliable counters to Exeggutor and Pawniard to an extent, Zweilous has found its use to forming even more defensive and balanced cores for the current meta. Being one of the few walls with a decent offensive presence, due to Hustle, Zweilous has found to be a very reliable pokemon right now.

Murkrow - Pre-Tier Shift krow got quite a bit of hype right now however the hype is definitely worth while as of this moment Murkrow is a great check to Exeggutor,Pawniard,Monferno and more due to Brave Bird,Pursuit/Sucker Punch and Hp Fighting. Reliably putting pressure on the opposing team with Pursuit trapping and inflicting status effects gives your team a great edge on your opponent and should be a reliable reason for it to also go to B.

 

[Froggyboy]

Zweilous I agree with, as it is one of the more reliable switch-ins to Exeggutor, though calling it a switch-in to Pawniard is a bit questionable, however Murkrow is fine at B-. Firstly, saying it checks Exeggutor, Pawinard, and Monferno implies it can switch into them, which it really can't because while its typing is good in theory to take on these things, its laughable how frail the bird is and how poorly it actually deals with these things.
252+ SpA Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Murkrow: 222-262 (85 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 211-250 (80.8 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock <- Knock Off+Sucker Punch also KOs after rocks.
252 Atk Monferno Flare Blitz/Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 274-324 (104.9 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure in a 1v1 scenario you can take them on, but to say it checks them is disputable. And while PursuitKrow is nice, you either give up the ability to take on Pawniard and Probopass(which is huge), or the ability to take advantage of Prankster T-Waves or Taunts, which takes away from the nice utility Murkrow has.

 

[RatRiddled]

Ariados to C

While it may not be the bulkiest pokemon, Ariados has access to both Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, making it ideal for setting up. It doesn't need power or speed, it has just enough bulk to survive long enough to spin its web and lay its traps. Almost every time I've swept with Vigoroth, I've led with Ariados so Vigoroth can be even less weak to special attacks, and so there's no chance of it being outsped.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-290198222

 

[MZ]

Ariados to C

While it may not be the bulkiest pokemon, Ariados has access to both Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes, making it ideal for setting up. It doesn't need power or speed, it has just enough bulk to survive long enough to spin its web and lay its traps. Almost every time I've swept with Vigoroth, I've led with Ariados so Vigoroth can be even less weak to special attacks, and so there's no chance of it being outsped.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-290198222

Hi, welcome to PU! Unfortunately, ariados was recently unranked due to how terribly outclassed it is. It doesnt get up Tspikes in a regular scenario reliably, and it's not even too reliable for webs. In addition, you should try posting more competitive replays. A game with Walrein vs Wobbuffet is unlikely to tell us anything about the metagame.

 

[MaroGod]

Zweilous I agree with, as it is one of the more reliable switch-ins to Exeggutor, though calling it a switch-in to Pawniard is a bit questionable, however Murkrow is fine at B-. Firstly, saying it checks Exeggutor, Pawinard, and Monferno implies it can switch into them, which it really can't because while its typing is good in theory to take on these things, its laughable how frail the bird is and how poorly it actually deals with these things.
252+ SpA Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Murkrow: 222-262 (85 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 211-250 (80.8 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock <- Knock Off+Sucker Punch also KOs after rocks.
252 Atk Monferno Flare Blitz/Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Murkrow: 274-324 (104.9 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure in a 1v1 scenario you can take them on, but to say it checks them is disputable. And while PursuitKrow is nice, you either give up the ability to take on Pawniard and Probopass(which is huge), or the ability to take advantage of Prankster T-Waves or Taunts, which takes away from the nice utility Murkrow has.

What you described is a counter. A check is something that wins if it gets a safe switch-in. Also...

Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Pursuit / Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power Fighting / Heat Wave
- Thunder Wave / Toxic

Just saying while Sucker Punch is a great move its not as staple as you would make it out to be.

As for zweilous countering pawniard to an extent it is because lacking Superpower then it would most likely not.

Ariados is the only Pokemon that can use both Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web, just saying.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help out ariados' case as you would think due to its mediocre defensive typing, Lackluster speed and meh stats overall.

 

[trc]

Alright, after playtesting with a lot of Pokemon and new teams in this meta, I've realised that this metagame, while different from the previous one, the Pokemon are still roughly the same level of viability, however I'm going to first talk about where I think the new Pokemon should be placed in the rankings, and then talk about some of the shifts between some of the Pokemon that became better or worse in the metagame shift, or were simply better or worse before the shift but hadn't been posted about.

I'll start off with the one that I think is the best, and that's Exeggutor. I know that some other players including dodmen believe Pawniard to be a better Pokemon, but since this is a community input thread I'd like to give my opinion and hopefully some good discussion should come out of it . I'll start of by saying I definitely think Pawniard is a great Pokemon, but since this paragraph is about Exeggutor, that's what I'm going to be talking about. At the moment, I strongly believe Exeggutor to be either in S rank, or very high A+ rank. I am not just overhyping Exeggutor because it is a recent drop, this is based on playtesting experience. There has not been a single game I have played so far where Exeggutor has been useless (aside from when I've won without needing to use it). Exeggutor's typing is really great offensively, and when backed up by 125 Special Attack, I think it has been well-established that Exeggutor is really difficult to switch into; its switch ins are basically limited to Vullaby, a SR weak Pokemon, and Zweilous, an uncommon Pokemon which is hardly very good. While its typing doesn't provide it much defensively, in the games I've played this hasn't really come into play, because the types of moves it is weak to are often used as coverage, not STAB, and often it can survive them and recover back with Giga Drain, an example being Life Orb Floatzel being unable to OHKO Exeggutor with Ice Beam and Exeggutor just getting a lot of its health back. However, the main reason I think that Exeggutor is one of the very best Pokemon in the tier is because of its unparalled set versatility. I don't mean the type of versatility where a Pokemon has multiple niche but largely ineffective options, but I mean multiple very effective sets that Exeggutor can run. There's the incredibly hard hitting Choice Specs set which takes advantage of Exeggutor's offensive coverage to completely destroy defensive teams, a simple Ancient Power can be all you need to turn the tide of the game in your favour. Against an offensive team, all it needs is a double switch on something like Golem or Relicanth and it is getting an OHKO, you simply can't fit on offensive Pokemon that aren't OHKOed or slower and 2HKOed outside of like AV Bouffalant, which is a good set but still. Then there's the Life Orb set with Sleep Powder, which is pretty much the same but you can't play around its locked moves. The Sunny Day / Solar Beam / Psychic / Hidden Power [Fire] set completely owns offensive teams thanks to the same reasons, amazing power and coverage. Then of course theres the Synthesis Life Orb version which trades in Sleep for survivability, and then there's the really good Colbur set which lures in Pokemon like Pawniard, Mightyena, and helps with Machoke while still being amazingly strong without a boosting item. Then there's all the Harvest berry sets which are just so annoying to face, and I mean your Sub + Sitrus Berry set which is amazing on Sticky Web teams, as it pretty much beats Pawniard for nothing but also allows Exeggutor to be at 80% after winning a 1v1 with Floatzel, just repeated Sitrus use is so good because it keeps Exeggutor alive, because Sub + 3 Attacks is amazing as if you get a Sub on something like Stunfisk, the opponent can't even try to play around your moves, you just get a kill. However, Sub + Synthesis cuts your coverage, so this is why Sitrus is so good, it's like a passive recovery machine. I mean I've gained 50% health in one turn solely from Sitrus Berry occurring twice. Then there's the Sub + Custap Berry set which is so annoying for offensive teams to face because you have a chance of facing an Exeggutor thats functionally the fastest 'mon in the tier, and that's a very scary thing. Starf Berry is probably the most infuriating version though, if it gets defense or evasion boosts and you have Synthesis, you're not in for a fun ride. Then you could always run Petaya or Salac and say gg to stall or offense respectively, and then there's still physical sets which are pretty much inferior to special sets but they have some coolish advantages. The thing is, it isn't just about guessing Exeggutor's set, which is annoying enough in itself, but that each of these different sets is a cool new way to make you lose a bunch of Pokemon just trying to kill the damn thing, and I think that's one of the reasons why Exeggutor is so good. Of course it naturally has its flaws, but so does every other S rank Pokemon, but if these are enough to seriously make you disagree, I think high A+ is probably ok too, but I feel like if that happens it will rise to S in due time anyway, lol. To people who have only been using the same old Specs or Life Orb sets, I encourage you to go out and try all of the different things you can run, because you'll realise just how versatile and unpredictable Exeggutor can be.

Now for Pawniard. I'll start off by saying that I do think that Pawniard is an A+ rank Pokemon, and one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but I also think that is quite overrated. Pawniard has many qualities which make it great on a team. It has super strong priority, which allows it to be an incredible sweeper and also stallbreaker if it sets up a Swords Dance, but even without it it is no slouch offensively and bearing an 80 BP priority move is a godsend. It is far and away the best offensive Steel-type in the tier, providing a slew of resists to your team and being a very good check to some Pokemon which previously really troubled offensive teams, examples being Dodrio and Chatot. Knock Off of course, is extremely spammable in PU, a tier where Eviolite users are very common, and Pawniard has STAB on it. Pawniard is also the best Pursuit trapper in the tier, a valuable tool to use against all the Flying-types. However, all I'm going to say here are the reasons why I think Exeggutor is a better Pokemon. To start off with, Pawniard has well defined counters, and ones that are common and splashable on teams. This includes Stunfisk, Relicanth, Monferno, Vullaby, and HP Fire Tangela. Pawniard is also very easy to OHKO offensively, proivded it does not resist your STAB move. While this applies to Exeggutor as well, the first point doesn't, and it's quite relevant in my opinion. But this is only my opinion, and I do think Pawniard is a great Pokemon worthy of A+ rank, that brings a lot to an offensive team.

Gorebyss is.. a little underwhelming maybe? It certainly isn't broken, that's for sure. The problem with Gorebyss is that even though it can set up quite easily with Memento and its surprising base Defense, it isn't sweeping any well built offensive team, because it is just so vulnerable to scarfers. In all honesty, what offensive team doesn't have a scarfer that outspeeds Gorebyss, I don't know why you wouldn't run one. Scarfers are also not very easy to lure at all. I mean Gorebyss definitely shits on defensive teams, and the options of Sub and Psychic can be kind of scary depending on your way of answering to Gorebyss, but it is going to take a lot for this to sweep any well built offensive team. I think how good it is against defense puts it snugly in A rank though.

Bouffalant is so good lol, and it is honestly the Pokemon that I kind of ignored for a bit, because I presumed it would just be another Normal-type, even though one of favourite PU teams from ages ago had Bouffalant and loved it. When facing it and using it though, my opinion changed drastically. It just has insane bulk to the point where it is one of those really frustrating Pokemon to just kill, and you often lose a lot of your team trying to do so. The Assault Vest set is underrated and godly, it beats nearly every special attacker and can Pursuit all Psychic-types. Once that Kadabra has a bit of damage on it, how are you beating that Linoone now? The SubSD set is a nightmare for any team with a single passive Pokemon to offer a Sub to, all it needs is a lure to Ghost-types, which are hardly the most common type in the metagame at the moment. It's an A+ Pokemon in my mind.

Finally, Gothitelle. I've already talked about Gothitelle a ton in the NP thread, and that the only set that isn't mostly outclassed is the Mean Look set, which rules if your opponent doesn't expect it but sucks otherwise. I would put it in C+, and I've probably the person who's used it the most.

I kind of want to showcase my ideal rankings without making this a shitpost, but it is really hard to justify like 30 Pokemon so I would prefer if things were discussed civilly and then me and others can provide input on why we agree or disagree with these decisions, I just think there needs to be a scale back or something because i dislike rankings with more than about 8 'mons in them, this is why descriptions are dumb and everything should be comparative, so there are no negative connotations for being in C rank if the ranks go up to G rank, but the ranks are compact. To be honest I'd prefer going up to more than E, but it doesn't matter atm. Just giving my opinion on where the Pokemon seem in comparison to each other. Don't attack me please it's not a massive deal.

My Thoughts:

S: Floatzel, Vigoroth, Roselia, Exeggutor, Machoke

A+: Stoutland, Zebstrika, Dodrio, Pawniard, Stunfisk, Regice, Bouffalant

A: Jumpluff, Grumpig, Gorebyss, Rotom-F, Linoone, Rapidash, Kadabra, Simipour

A-: Tangela, Monferno, Chatot, Relicanth, Misdreavus, Sawsbuck, Probopass, Vullaby, Mr. Mime

B+: Simisage, Raichu, Ursaring, Golem, Mightyena, Fraxure, Arbok, Ninetales

I stopped here and also they aren't ordered, these aren't nominations though, just my opinion, so please no attacking

 

[Froggyboy]

What you described is a counter. A check is something that wins if it gets a safe switch-in. Also...

Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Pursuit / Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power Fighting / Heat Wave
- Thunder Wave / Toxic

Just saying while Sucker Punch is a great move its not as staple as you would make it out to be.

No, a check still can be something that can switch into one or both of a certain Pokemon's STAB moves, and win afterwards. Realistically, Murkrow would only be able to switch into a Psychic/Psyshock from Exeggutor, as even Modest HP Fire has a chance to kill after rocks lol. Also I wouldn't have Pursuit as your only STAB Dark move, as now most Flying resists can switch in freely to you, even frail things like Zebstrika and Raichu don't care too much about it, and having strong priority is basically mandatory as the meta is pretty fast at the moment.