Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[BP]

Stunfisk to A-

Guys I'm really sorry for the cringe worthy double post about me trashing A rank mons. I'm just incredibly bored right at this moment and I found a Pokemon that doesn't fit where it's being shoved. Alright here it goes...

When I first started using stunfisk I thought "Oh wow this trash isn't that bad," Now when I look at that thing I can't even fathom why this thing is even still in the A rank. The only reason why I am not nominating it for anywhere in the B's is because it's one of the most notable status spreaders in the tier and it can function as a pretty decent wall if used correctly. Other than that and its access to set up Stealth Rock it really isn't all that great. It's outsped by almost the entire tier and is common bait for Pokemon such as Special Floatzel, any Facade Leafeons, or perhaps Roselia another prominent hazard setter. It really has a lot of checks and counters. Stunfisk is quite the disappointment on any team that doesn't happen to be a Balanced Offensive team. This is only because of it's ability to throw status around like nobody's business. Because of this I feel it is more suitable at a lower A ranking.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Stunfisk to A-

Guys I'm really sorry for the cringe worthy double post about me trashing A rank mons. I'm just incredibly bored right at this moment and I found a Pokemon that doesn't fit where it's being shoved. Alright here it goes...

When I first started using stunfisk I thought "Oh wow this trash isn't that bad," Now when I look at that thing I can't even fathom why this thing is even still in the A rank. The only reason why I am not nominating it for anywhere in the B's is because it's one of the most notable status spreaders in the tier and it can function as a pretty decent wall if used correctly. Other than that and its access to set up Stealth Rock it really isn't all that great. It's outsped by almost the entire tier and is common bait for Pokemon such as Special Floatzel, any Facade Leafeons, or perhaps Roselia another prominent hazard setter. It really has a lot of checks and counters. Stunfisk is quite the disappointment on any team that doesn't happen to be a Balanced Offensive team. This is only because of it's ability to throw status around like nobody's business. Because of this I feel it is more suitable at a lower A ranking.

I agree with dropping this mon to A- but I disagree with your reasoning in some aspects. First off, facade leafeon isn't a thing and has never been a thing, Roselia is really underwhelming in this meta, and yeah special floatzel is a thing but it's been a thing since past metas so i don't think that has changed anything regarding stunfisk's viability. The real reason stunfisk should drop is because it's very exploitable and passive and those are awful characteristics to have when building right now. This meta is ruthless and the competitive playstyles are effective at abusing users that have incorporated stunfisk into their team. Spdef Muk and Trappers have been blowing up and are extremely effective at punishing unprepped playstyles. Vibrava has only gotten better on these teams and Rotom-F is at the top of his game still. If you want to be successful in PU you're either running HO or some kind've semistall or bulky playstyle with muk and bronzor and clef, ect. Balance is increasingly difficult to play (Stunfisk being a balance/stall mon) because there are so many threats to check that you're bound to be overwhelmed by at least one thing at team preview. It' just not effective as it was pre-muk/cacturne. Either way, Stunfisk's uses as an electric check/soft monferno check don't outweigh it's negatives in terms of team dynamic and you're better off just running golem 80% of the time. Stunfisk will not help you. I look forward to facing this mon on team preview because it's something that sub/CM sweepers LOVE to setup on. This is why it's an A- mon. We have too many threats in high tier that just use and abuse it.

 

[Taskr]

Zebstrika to A - Agree
Like others have said although it has a great speed tier and good coverage options it simply lacks the power and struggles against pokemon like Muk, Golem and Clefairy who are prevelant in the meta right now.

Vibrava to B/B+ - Agree
Vibrava is a really good Defensive pivot at the moment that has the ability to check common threats in the tier like Monferno, Golem and Curse Muk. Without trying to reiterate what TJ too much, Vibrava is also a great hazard remover due to its ability to resist Stealth Rock.

Rotom-Frost to A+ - Disagree
Rotom is still a great pokemon in today's meta that can run rampant on teams without a good counter measure. Scarf sets out speed nearly the whole tier and the threat of STAB Blizzard means you can't just switch in your Ground type to beat it. Rotom can run a variety of sets including SubSplit which extremely effective at wearing down bulky offense builds that are common right now. In my opinion Rotom secures it's place as the best Electric type in the tier and doesn't deserve to drop.

Stunfisk to A- - Disagree
The main argument for this thing to drop should of been because it is a ground type that can't effectively beat Muk. However, Stunfisk is still a really good choice for a ground type and a Stealth Rocker due to its ability to counter Monferno really well whilst also beat near all other Electric types bar Rotom. Stunfisk is great on Balance as it is a really good momentum kill when facing Volt turn and it's ability to spread paralysis well can aid the rest of the team.

Bronzor to C- - Agree
Bronzor's ability to beat the famous Muk+Trapper core is Bronzor's main selling point but its ability to counter other things like Golem, Metang, Jumpluff and Relicanth pushes it up as a worthy steel type on Stall and sometimes Balance. Psywave can also be pretty effective against defensive pokemon without reliable recovery.

Monferno to S
So lastly I'm going to nominate a mon of my own. I think that Monferno is really deserving of S rank as it provides multiple different roles whether it be it's ability to check many threats such as Leafeon, Cacturne, Golem, Stoutland or its ability to be a really nice offensive pivot and a devastating set up sweeper with Swords Dance. Even though it's the only fighting type (other than mienfoo) in the tier right now, every good team must have a counter or multiple checks to function well against this mon. As evident in the usage statistics all these options allow it be very splashable when teambuilding and the reason I think that it should move up.

 

[Anty]

Last update of this stage!
Rotom-F S to A+
Zebstrika A+ to A
Roselia A to A-
Stunfisk A to A-
Probopass B+ to A-
Hippopotas B to B-
Simisear B to B-
Maractus to D

Rotom-F was barely S after last update, however ultimately it has fallen from its grace as several counters have gotten more common such as Muk and Probopass and in general teams are more prepared then ever for Electric types. Zebby dropped for a similar reason, and it just lacks the power to be useful against bulkier teams. Roselia struggles in a physically dominant metagame where the best special attackers are Psychic-types, Muk is more common than ever, and some of what it likes to check has ways around it (eg mixed floatzel). Stunfisk has fallen as a rocker as Golem has taken over, which can check plenty of what Stunfisk can, and as a ground-type Stunfisk doesn't even beat Muk. Overall it is hard to justify Stunfisk usage, though its main selling point is beating Monferno, it isn't enough for A ranks. Lastly, Maractus was added as a Chlorophyll user, as its high special attack makes it at least as good as Weepinbell, and arguably better. The other two aren't as good as they used to be, and their niches are less useful atm.

Discussions:
Duosion B+ to A-
Vibrava B- to B
Rampardos C+ to B-
Bronzor D to higher

 

[BP]

Rampardos C+ to B- or B

Rampardos has an incredible amount of Attack; it also has access to Sheer Force which makes it a viable Life Orb User. This makes Rampardos's already enormous attack even larger. A disappointing speed is easy to get around with users such as Stunfisk and any other user that can inflict Paralysis. With this Rampardos is able to demolish most of the tier with its titanic attack. Rampardos is a great Pokemon and this needs to be recognized. Shoot I think this thing is good enough for B. Once all it's checks like Monferno is gone and anything the out speeds it is paralyzed Rampardos just kills everything. It is a fantastic late game sweeper that many teams can't stand up to. It isn't that great as a suicide lead due to Cutsap Berry Golem and Crustle. However Rampardos has a very poor typing, this coupled with it's rather lacking Defensive stats make it easy to dispose of. It may not be as Splashable as some of the other Pokemon but hey that's why it's not being nominated for A. It can be paired well with a number of pokemon. I personally think that B is the perfect place for Rampardos.

 

[5gen]

Rampardos C+ to B- or B

Rampardos has an incredible amount of Attack; it also has access to Sheer Force which makes it a viable Life Orb User. This makes Rampardos's already enormous attack even larger. A disappointing speed is easy to get around with users such as Stunfisk and any other user that can inflict Paralysis. With this Rampardos is able to demolish most of the tier with its titanic attack. Rampardos is a great Pokemon and this needs to be recognized. Shoot I think this thing is good enough for B. Once all it's checks like Monferno is gone and anything the out speeds it is paralyzed Rampardos just kills everything. It is a fantastic late game sweeper that many teams can't stand up to. It isn't that great as a suicide lead due to Cutsap Berry Golem and Crustle. However Rampardos has a very poor typing, this coupled with it's rather lacking Defensive stats make it easy to dispose of. It may not be as Splashable as some of the other Pokemon but hey that's why it's not being nominated for A. It can be paired well with a number of pokemon. I personally think that B is the perfect place for Rampardos.

The main reason I think Rampardos is being discussed to rise is something you didn't mention: Choice Scarf. This set does a great job at breaking down teams and luring things that would normally beat Rampardos (i.e able to check Leafeon) because of that jump to 354 Speed. Keep in mind that is slow for a Scarfer, but Ramp is meant to break balance teams and tear holes. I find it especially effective in this meta in doing so because Head Smash+Mold Breaker EQ just trashes Muk teams and the like. Ramp also is flexible in the last two slots which can be helpful for teambuilding, as it can opt for Pursuit to trap things or Fire Blast to lure in Tangela/Gourg (with Sheer Force). Tbh I think Rampardos can rise to B- solely off the Scarf set since it is that effective.

 

[false]

Duosion B+ to A-
Yeah Duosion is generally just better than the Pokemon in the B+ rank, a point that is only further accentuated by the fact that it currently sits in a metagame with heavy counts of Muk + Trapinch. One of the things about Duosion which I feel is vastly understated is its absurdly high 125 base SpA stat. Duosion is nowhere near as initially passive as the likes of Clefairy, which works to its advantage in situations where it may find itself without time to set up. A perfect example of this being showcased is in this PU Open semifinal game between PDC and Ciele. PDC plays Duosion almost as perfectly as one could hope, firing off attacks whenever Duosion is brought in, pressuring the likes of Stoutland and Zebstrika, rather than trying to set up. PDC doesn't even click Calm Mind a single time until the game is over. All in all, current metagame trends favour the rise of Duosion, and it's also just generally a super good Pokemon. I'm definitely supporting a rise.

Vibrava B- to B
HOW CAN TRAPINCH RISE BUT CHINCHOU STAY DOWN :[ For what it's worth I do think that Vibrava should get a rise, it's definitely on a level of utility similar to the level of other recent risers such as Trapinch. Increase in Muk and Golem makes this thing better, and I guess more Monferno opting not to carry SD makes this thing slightly more reliable in that situation too. Even Zebstrika has recently been favouring either HP Grass or Water over Ice coverage a bit more often that it used to. A rise seems fair, although I'd keep it towards the bottom of B.

Bronzor D to higher
Yeah I'm actually ok with Bronzor getting a rise. Whilst it's by no means an excellent Pokemon, facing competition from a variety of other Steel-types, namely Metang, it's just far more viable than any of the garbage in the D-Rank. Psywave is a cool move on Bronzor, and is really the only reason it's any good at all, remedying its pitiful 24 attack, effectively mimicking Chansey's use of Seismic Toss to bypass its low attacking stats to still deal respectable damage. Bronzor's typing combined with Levitate grant it an interesting niche, reliably checking a variety of common threats from Muk to Golem. It also just happens to get Stealth Rock, which is a nice boon for the defensive archetypes which it fits on. Seems better than a D-rank Pokemon to me.

 

[SableyeStudios]

I'd like to nominate Armaldo to go from B- to B+. While Armaldo is not a very well known Pokémon within the tier and its speed is not at the top of the tier by far, it makes up for it with its high attack and defense, giving it the capability to be run with a variety of different sets.

1. Assault Vest Armaldo. Armaldo's movepool provides many different opportunities for AVest sets, including the hazard-removing Rapid Spin, the Priority Aqua Jet, which when paired with Swift Swim can make a powerful combination. Its physical moves like Aqua Tail, Knock Off, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Earthquake, Body Slam, Brick Break/Superpower, and X-Scissor provides the opportunity for a powerful yet bulky sweeper. This also accounts for Armaldo's low special defense stat. For example:

Armaldo (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Rapid Spin
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

This gives Armaldo a SpD stat of 388.5, or 389, which will tank many special water attacks from the tier's more dangerous water types such as SS Gorebyss or other special attackers that may use Ancient Power or Power Gem.

2. SetUp Armaldo. Armaldo's low speed can be paired up with a Trick Room for a powerful sweeper. With access to Swords Dance and its before mentioned physical movepool, Armaldo can be a physical tank that can take many different attacks. Again, you could also run this with Swift Swim on a rain team instead of Trick Room.

Armaldo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

This gives Armaldo many different capabilities including coverage and the possibility for a high speed stat on a normally low-in-speed tank.

3. Choice Band Armaldo. While Armaldo's base attack at 125 ranks at the 8th highest in PU, running a banded set gives Armaldo even more strength, and YET AGAIN, can be used with a rain team or trick room.

Armaldo @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet

Having Stone Edge for STAB, Superpower for coverage and power, Knock Off for destroying possible sets like White Herb/ Shell Smash, and Aqua Jet for priority and possible combination with rain makes Armaldo a threat within the tier for any Pokemon within the tier, even for some of the highest defensive beasts in the tier such as Avalugg, Bastiodon, and Carbink.

4. Support Armaldo. Armaldo's access to common moves such as Stealth Rock and Toxic, combined with its high Defense and HP, make it an ideal member of a team for setup.

Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stone Edge
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock

This set provides Armaldo a boost to its already bulky frame and also provides the opportunity to take out possible sweepers with Toxic, and to set up Rocks for dangerous mons in the tier like Glaceon, Articuno, Flareon, Regice, and Rotom Fan/Freeze, which are all affected by the factored rock weakness.

Overall, these sets can make Armaldo just a generally bulky yet physical member of any team in the PU tier. It is more often than not overlooked, but it has the capability to bolster any team's defensive or offensive presence.

 

[kino]

I don't really like posting on viabs but there's still a few thing that makes me post

1 - The Armaldo point. Assault vest Armaldo seems a pretty meh choice since that means you can't carry sr + you're even more weak to them (no lefties). Tank armaldo is bad aswell since it's a defensive mon that loose to scald, is weak to eh and don't have any real defensive utility outside of hazard control and normal resist if you want. Choice Band Armaldo is rly slow and there's no point using it over cb golem/offensive rampardos/offensive relicanth if you want an offensive rock type. Sd Armaldo is only an option for rain teams i'm not a huge fan of but you can justifiy this set, which is (imo) not the case of the others. On the other hand, i don't see the offensive spinner set, which is his little niche outside of rain.
I honestly really never liked armaldo ; it's a weak to most-of-the-rock-setters spinner and an outclass sr setter, and in addition it's fairly easy to pressure due to his weakness to rock and water (i.e golem, lumineon, prinlup ect). Overall i don't think it need a rise, it's fairly well where it is (even if i think it's a lil bit high)

2 - I'd like to support the duosion point, even if i don't really know what to say false didn't already. As he said tho, is high spa allows it to pressure most of the things that would like to overpower it, like cb stoutland/sd leafeon... Signal Beam is also now a nice option to lure in cacturne and in a mesure leafeon, kadabra and pig (and bronzor hype). Hp fight is also fairly nice for pawn / probo / steels. Overall it appreciates the muk meta, with cromuk/trapinch/probo without taunt/prinlup,vibrava, peli and lumineon/grass type that are not jumpluff or leafeon giving him a free setup.

 

[BP]

I just couldn't wait any longer

Combusken --> A or A-

Okay so I want to hop on this thing right away. Combusken is great! I love it need, I need it, I gotta have it.​

Combusken has 4 main sets that I've determined are viable in PU:

sets

LO Pelipper Lure
Combusken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Protect
- Hidden Power Electric

A better Monferno
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Sky Uppercut
- Rock Slide

Speed Pass Package 1
Combusken @ Eviolite / Wide Lens
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Protect
- Baton Pass

The Complete Speed pass Package
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Combusken is god send from NU thanks to its ability Speed Boost and its access to Baton Pass. Because of Speed Boost it becomes harder and harder to revenge kill; not only this it has access to fantastic high power STAB moves that can cause a lot of damage which can make it a very effective late game sweeper. It also gets Swords Dance and some great physical attacks making it a great physical sweeper. For all these reasons it can threaten both offensive and balanced teams. There are so many good qualities about Combusken it's hard to see where its weaknesses. Without Eviolite Combusken's defenses seem to be quite lacking which means Combusken must switch when it comes across a suspected priority user or anything that maybe faster than it at the time. In conclusion, Combusken is honestly one of those Pokemon that isn't extremely splashable but you can usually find a way to incorporate them onto the team.

 

[Aaronboyer]

And as Broken Phobias puts some input on one of the latest drops, I would like to discuss about my buddy Quagsire.

In a tier dominated by CroMuk, Steel-Trapping, and maintaining offensive pressure in general, Defensive and Stall teams alike are blessed with PU's first ever Unaware Pokemon! (Bibarel & Swoobat don't count in my book) Quagsire is one of the best checks/counters to many Top Tier Pokemon, such as Muk, Golem, Stunfisk, Zebstrika, Electrode, Rapidash, and more by virtue of its 5 resistances and immunities and only 1 weakness. This is further complimented by having well-rounded defensive stats and an expansive movepool that includes Recover, Encore, Scald, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast and more. It has great synergy with Pokemon such Duosion, Muk, Rotom-Frost, Monferno, Clefairy, Rapidash, Roselia, Metang, and Bronzor to name a few, and is easy to slap on to Defensively-Oriented Teams. A good team that shows Quagsire in action is Machoker's Mukquagzon Stall Team that can be found in the Sample Teams thread. Overall, I believe Quagsire's fantastic defensive attributes bring something new to the table and because it has already proven to function so well, I would like to nominate Quagsire to A.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Combusken should go to A

People were saying Monferno was going to almost completely outclass it, but at the time they were probably really undervaluing the speed pass mechanic to it which really let's it shine as a momentum tool and offensive tool. Combusken also has less opportunities to be taken advantage of since whatever you switch into should probably be able to it unlike Monferno who could give up momentum to the opponent if they play it properly. And the point of my argument isn't to shun Monferno entirely but just show that the clear difference between the two is major and why it should be A.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-476291196
Here is a replay versus me and Machoker where he successfully makes two great passes with Golem and Misdreavous which were the biggest deciding factors in our game.

I don't have a real opinion on the other two yet since I've literally sent out Trev twice and hhaven't faced a Quag yet.

But Duosion can rise like it literally sets up on more than half the meta .-. while also picking and choosing whether it wants to beat one set of counters or the other.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Could someone explain to me why Vanilluxe is nearly E Rank?

use the sqsa thread for this please -mag

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Could someone explain to me why Vanilluxe is nearly E Rank?

A question best asked in PU chat but mons like lapras have better stab and access to freeze dry while mons like rotom frost and regice have better coverage and sets like sub wow/split (rotom) and and rock polish with focus blast and tbolt with regice. Even mons like glaceon hit harder and have stuff to touch grumpig like shadow ball. It is just really underwhelming here.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Vanilluxe suffers from 4 Moveslot Syndrome (it wants Signal Beam for Grumpig, Flash Cannon for ice-types, Freeze Dry for water-types, Autotomize, Ice Beam, HP Ground for steels, Ice Shard maybe for priority) and it is also very weak defensively (bad defensive typing) which gives it not many chances to set up Autotomize. Also Regice is in the tier who kinda outclasses Vanilluxe as a "speedy" Ice sweeper since it has better bulk.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

What about as a mixed wallbreaker of some sort? I've spent the last few days messing around with a set that has Freeze Dry, Ice Shard, Explosion, and HP Fighting (luring Pawniard). It's had some appropriately mixed results, but I think it's potent.

 

[Magnemite]

This thread isn't the place for this, if you want to discuss what sets you want to run on vanilluxe then do it in the room or on discord. This thread is for the posting and discussion of nominations only.

Antyedit: You can also ask questions here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-pu-edition.3527254/

 

[Anty]

Though Sun and Moon has come out, ORAS PU is still being played so this thread will still be update (possibly less often - only time will tell)!!
Combusken added to A-
Quagisre added to A
Trevenant added to B-
Quilladin A- to B+
Dusknoir A- to B+
Duosion B+ to A-
Smeargle B+ to B
Vibrava B- to B
Rampardos C+ to B-
Bronzor D to C-

Combusken was placed at A- mainly due to its offensive sets, but with some considerations for its SpeedPass set. Its strong moves combined with good coverage make it a very threatening sweeper, though it does have common checks like Clefairy, Grumpig, and Aqua Jet users. Quagsire is an excellent addition to defensive teams as Unaware lets it take on many wall/stall breakers like CM Duosion, and (non LO) NP Mr Mime. Trevenant is pretty underwhelming as defensive sets have harsh competition from Gourgeist, which is bulkier, and offensive sets face competition from Leafeon, however it has several alright niches in some offensive SubWill-o sets and has a small niche as a Choice Band user.

Both Quilladin and Dusknoir have had issues staying relevant in this metagame. Quilladin hates the popularity of Muk and Vullaby, most of the high ranked Pokemon can beat it one on one, and plenty of the Stealth Rockers it likes to wall commonly run Toxic. Dusknoir's power has been quite underwhelming in an increasingly bulky metagame due to a lack of a good STAB. Additionally its bad 4MSS has been made worse with Pokemon like Vullaby and Clefairy everywhere.

Duosion rose due to its big niche as a Calm Mind user in Acid Armour, which takes advantage of players running physical wallbreakers to get past Calm Mind users like Clefairy. Smeargle dropped down as its niche as a suicide lead is less needed now that bulkier teams are starting to dominate the tier, and other rockers with defensive utility are easier to build with.

Vibrava is excellent at providing Defog support comfortably wall popular Pokemon like Monferno along with Rapidash and Golem, whose usage has shot up significantly lately. Rampardos rose mostly due to its recently popularised Choice Scarf set, which can tear apart offensive teams due to the lack of solid Rock resists. Lastly Bronzor has quite a defined niche, as it can take on plenty of what Metang could (Psychic and Normal-types) while also walling Golem. It might rise higher but currently its limited by its passivity and being difficult to fit onto teams.

 

[Taskr]

Altaria from B -> B+

Altaria has benefited quite a lot with the new drops as it can check both Combusken and Quagsire really well. It's Dragon/Flying typing means it resists Fire, Fighting, Water and it's immune to ground so it can easily switch into any one of Combusken/Quagsire's attacks. Natural Cure and Heal Bell combined with Roost mean that it can take on Toxic Quagsire and running Toxic itself means that it can reliably beat Curse Quagsire. Aside from being able to beat the new drops, Altaria is also surprisingly powerful and with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/EQ coverage it can dent a lot of teams lacking good recovery and counters like Clefairy. Altaria is pretty versatile and is also finding itself more commonly run on stall too as it is a good check to threats like Ninetales and has great support moves in Heal Bell and Haze. Lastly, I think that when comparing Altaria to some of the pokemon in B+ such as Simipour, Raichu and Camerupt, I feel Altaria is of similar viabilty if not better than some of these mons in the current meta.

 

[Akir]

Ninetales B- to B

With the rise of Quagsire stall also comes the rise of setup stallbreakers that do not care about Quagsire's Unaware ability. With the coverage provided by Fire Blast/Energy Ball/and usually Dark Pulse or Psyshock, Ninetales can break a large number of walls such as 2hkoing Audino, OHKOing Muk if you have Psyshock, breaking down a lot of balance cores such as the Lumineon/Golem core as an example, and most notably atm can set up without worrying at all about Quagsire who is OHKOed by Energy Ball. The Fire/Grass coverage can be very difficult for stall teams to cover all in one slot and the third attack on Ninetales can nullify whatever answer stall might find.

With a good speed of base 100, Ninetales also can do its share outside of stallbreaking against the offensive matchup. The metagame is starting to slow down slightly with mons like the Simis not being as popular so base 100 can be considered "fast" again. The rise of Grass types like Leafeon also plays well into its favor as Ninetales does not even need to set up to revenge kill and force out Leafeon or Roselia. Ninetales even has Flash Fire as an ability to absorb the stray Will-o-Wisp for your offensive team.

Ninetales has the power and coverage to break down a lot of stall teams and the offensive prowess and speed to be an asset to offense as well. B- is undervaluing Ninetales in a metagame where it actually flourishes.

Calculations

252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 530-624 (134.5 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 269-317 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If they Wish, you can Nasty Plot on the Protect and then the calc looks like this:
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 403-476 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 419-494 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Dark Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 307-361 (95.6 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[ManOfMany]

Bronzor to B
-best team archetype right now is stall and Bronzor fits incredibly well on that
-it also fits well on balance and semi-stall. The role compression is amazing and it is far from passive either, let's be honest. It does everything that Metang does except it also beats Golem so you don't need a secondary check to it. And it beats Gabite. And Bouff. And Relicanth, and Probo, and Stunfisk, and Quagsire....
-Bronzor beats an incredible amount of the metagame 1v1. Between Psywave and Toxic it just invalidates an incredible number of teams in combination with partners to take Fire-attacks and Knock Off. (Quagzor anyone?)
-no reliable recovery = not a huge issue. In fact, like 80% of Bronzor teams don't even need Bronzor to set rocks so it can go Psywave/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk because they can easily fit another SR user. Also Heal Bell users are really easy to pair with Bronzor.
-Psywave is actually really hard to switch into lol. Doing consistent damage to everything while not taking any damage yourself causes huge problems for offense. Bronzor can just do 35% chip on anything that comes in while its partners can eat up any hits.
-It's easily on par with stuff like Solrock and Pelipper, if not better. I'm definitely not the only one who has had to adjust entire teams lately cause "omg bronzor walls everything" which you can't say about literally anything in the C ranks.
-it's cute


i know people are going to disagree because it's "too much too quick" but this is definitely a huge pokemon right now. I know it's a relatively new pokemon but that doesn't mean it has to have a slow and steady rise in the rankings. Just put this beast where it belongs

 

[Iloveweather]

I nominate Simisage to B+ ranking.
I have used Simisages mixed life orb set to break down common defensive cores.
Here's my set.
Simisage (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide/ Gunk Shot
Knock off hurts Bronzor and criples switch-ins except muk. Gun Shot hits Clefairy hard. Superpower hits Audino hard. Leaf Storm is a powerufulstab move. If you pair this thing with trapinch and use some smart double-switching, I think you could also beat muk, too.
Calcs:252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 317-374 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 205-244 (59.5 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 120-143 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (It 2HKO's if Bronzor is Sp0 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 359-424 (85 - 100.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth RockD.)

 

[Aaronboyer]

View attachment 74433

Ninetales B- to B

With the rise of Quagsire stall also comes the rise of setup stallbreakers that do not care about Quagsire's Unaware ability. With the coverage provided by Fire Blast/Energy Ball/and usually Dark Pulse or Psyshock, Ninetales can break a large number of walls such as 2hkoing Audino, OHKOing Muk if you have Psyshock, breaking down a lot of balance cores such as the Lumineon/Golem core as an example, and most notably atm can set up without worrying at all about Quagsire who is OHKOed by Energy Ball. The Fire/Grass coverage can be very difficult for stall teams to cover all in one slot and the third attack on Ninetales can nullify whatever answer stall might find.

With a good speed of base 100, Ninetales also can do its share outside of stallbreaking against the offensive matchup. The metagame is starting to slow down slightly with mons like the Simis not being as popular so base 100 can be considered "fast" again. The rise of Grass types like Leafeon also plays well into its favor as Ninetales does not even need to set up to revenge kill and force out Leafeon or Roselia. Ninetales even has Flash Fire as an ability to absorb the stray Will-o-Wisp for your offensive team.

Ninetales has the power and coverage to break down a lot of stall teams and the offensive prowess and speed to be an asset to offense as well. B- is undervaluing Ninetales in a metagame where it actually flourishes.

Calculations

252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 530-624 (134.5 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 269-317 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If they Wish, you can Nasty Plot on the Protect and then the calc looks like this:
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 403-476 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 419-494 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Dark Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 307-361 (95.6 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Ninetales to B: AGREE
Something I thought Akir forgot to mention is that not only is the meta game getting slower, but its getting bulkier. Fast & Frail Water-types such Floatzel, Simipour, and Basculin have been dropping viability and usage over the last several shifts, which means Ninetales can run something other than Passho Berry.

Bronzor to B
-best team archetype right now is stall and Bronzor fits incredibly well on that
-it also fits well on balance and semi-stall. The role compression is amazing and it is far from passive either, let's be honest. It does everything that Metang does except it also beats Golem so you don't need a secondary check to it. And it beats Gabite. And Bouff. And Relicanth, and Probo, and Stunfisk, and Quagsire....
-Bronzor beats an incredible amount of the metagame 1v1. Between Psywave and Toxic it just invalidates an incredible number of teams in combination with partners to take Fire-attacks and Knock Off. (Quagzor anyone?)
-no reliable recovery = not a huge issue. In fact, like 80% of Bronzor teams don't even need Bronzor to set rocks so it can go Psywave/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk because they can easily fit another SR user. Also Heal Bell users are really easy to pair with Bronzor.
-Psywave is actually really hard to switch into lol. Doing consistent damage to everything while not taking any damage yourself causes huge problems for offense. Bronzor can just do 35% chip on anything that comes in while its partners can eat up any hits.
-It's easily on par with stuff like Solrock and Pelipper, if not better. I'm definitely not the only one who has had to adjust entire teams lately cause "omg bronzor walls everything" which you can't say about literally anything in the C ranks.
-it's cute



i know people are going to disagree because it's "too much too quick" but this is definitely a huge pokemon right now. I know it's a relatively new pokemon but that doesn't mean it has to have a slow and steady rise in the rankings. Just put this beast where it belongs

Bronzor to B: AGREE (IMO to B+)

Bronzor is just fantastic glue for stall teams rn; as if stall needed anything more than Quagsire... Anyways, A steel type that the most common ground type (Golem), the most common steel trapper (Probopass), and many other top tier pokemon is utterly insane. Like ManyofMany said, its NOT passive. You have to build around it, which is something even most B rank pokemon can't say. I really wanted to nominate this to B+ or even A-, but it would be jumping from C-, so I think B is more than enough for now. This thing is sooooo good!

I nominate Simisage to B+ ranking.
I have used Simisages mixed life orb set to break down common defensive cores.
Here's my set.
Simisage (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide/ Gunk Shot
Knock off hurts Bronzor and criples switch-ins except muk. Gun Shot hits Clefairy hard. Superpower hits Audino hard. Leaf Storm is a powerufulstab move. If you pair this thing with trapinch and use some smart double-switching, I think you could also beat muk, too.
Calcs:252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 317-374 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 205-244 (59.5 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 120-143 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (It 2HKO's if Bronzor is Sp0 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 359-424 (85 - 100.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth RockD.)

Simisage to B+: DISAGREE (IMO to B-)
It's not as powerful as Cacturne or Leafeon, and it's not as bulky as Gourgeist, Tangela, and Quilladin. I think it can go to at least B- where Sawsbuck is, because Sawsbuck at least has Normal-STAB, Swords Dance, Chlorophyll, Jump Kick, and Wild Charge

 

[Slowbroth]

I nominate Simisage to B+ ranking.
I have used Simisages mixed life orb set to break down common defensive cores.
Here's my set.
Simisage (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide/ Gunk Shot
Knock off hurts Bronzor and criples switch-ins except muk. Gun Shot hits Clefairy hard. Superpower hits Audino hard. Leaf Storm is a powerufulstab move. If you pair this thing with trapinch and use some smart double-switching, I think you could also beat muk, too.
Calcs:252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 317-374 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 205-244 (59.5 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 120-143 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (It 2HKO's if Bronzor is Sp0 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 359-424 (85 - 100.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth RockD.)

Hey there. When making a viability rankings post, it's pretty important to consider not the Pokemon's set in a vacuum, that is, it's important to look at how it works in the actual metagame and not just minute details. So, is Simisage getting better because of something that is happening with the meta, like, say, an increase in Quagsire builds in which Simisage takes advantage of? Is Simisage getting better because it's doing something better than what Leafeon does currently? Is Simisage on par with the other mons of B+? As of right now, your arguments are: Simisage hits Clefairy, Audino, and it can maybe beat Muk. That's not entirely valid enough as an argument and doesn't shed much light on the reason why it's being nominated higher. In addition, you posted a fairly standard set that Simisage runs. When talking about viability, unless it's something new or underrated or something niche/different that entails specifying, you don't really need to mention the set.

You say that Gunk Shot hits Clefairy hard, but so what? Why is this even important? Why not just the opponent switch into a Simisage counter such as Mawile or Altaria which are incredibly common metagame threats at the moment. Why is hitting Audino so important that Simisage should rise one rank? I hope you can expand on your arguments and answer some of these questions; and elaborate a bit more on why you would like to see it higher.

-

Personally I do not think Simisage needs a rise. Leafeon does pretty much everything better and more consistently except hit opposing grass walls barring Rose, has better bulk and longevity, has pivoting capabilities. it's not like Simisage's Nasty Plot set got better either, with really no way to touch Bronzor or Muk on stall, and still is fairly slow for an offensive mon because that base 101 speed means that Floatzel or Zebstrika always checks it. Pretty much offensively Simisage is the same as it always has been, so its viability really doesn't need to change.

I forgot to add my own nomination, whoops: Combusken to A- to A

Basically, this mon has really been impressive in both its special and physical sets. Just as many teams focus solely on prepping for Monferno, mostly physical sets, they are usually broken through easily by Combusken's special sets (ex: Vibrava). Combusken takes advantage of this metagame trend by accumulating multiple speed boosts and severely damaging opposing offensive teams that cannot outspeed it or let it get too many boosts up. Combusken is easy to support and, in turn, supports its teammates easily, similar to how Monferno does by checking Darks and Grasses. Special sets easily break down defensive mons such as Quagsire, Lumineon and can even 2HKO Pelipper provided that rocks are up. I don't know how many times I've used Combusken to weaken Lumineon just so that Floatzel has an easier time later, or even vice versa. Combusken aids many builds by gaining momentum and at the same time passing speed boosts to its teammates. Without getting too much into the Combusken vs stall matchup, which it can definitely overcome due to its only check being Altaria (ex: put HP Ice on it as coverage move of choice if you really wanted to get past it), Combusken is good against most a lot of playstyles simply because 1) fire+fighting is an incredible offensive type combination and 2) if combusken isn't breaking down teams, it's going to be pivoting with Baton Pass so momentum and matchup can be kept for the offensive player. Let's also not forget to mention the fact that SD sets, which have been criminally underused due to simply Quagsire being a thing, SD physical sets can sweep so many teams late game because people are running less Stunfisk, and things like Swanna, Peli and Altaria that would be answers to Monferno no longer become answers to Combusken at +2 Atk, +1 Speed with its Rock Slides or Thunderpunches; Grumpig even gets OHKOed by Blitz with just some rounds of rocks damage. (basically, it's pretty easy to sweep with busken when its very few checks have been lured and removed).

I haven't even gone into how Combusken has become the main speedpasser of choice for speedpass archetypes, but speedpass never really picked up steam in the meta, so it's fairly irrelevant, for now.

TL;DR: Both sets are dangerously good against a lot of different team archetypes, and its unpredictability can help it break through would-be checks and counters, can support the team with gaining momentum and accumulating speed, and is a potent late game sweeper which is all deserving of A rank (Do I think Combusken is better in terms of viability than Stunfisk? hell yes I do.)

 

[false]

Agree with the Altaria and Ninetales noms, but I also have a few nominations of my own that I'd like to bring up.

Quagsire A to S
Quagsire centralises the entire tier right now in a way that is somewhat comparable to how Muk did, evidenced by the large number of older teams that have simply been invalidated by Quagsire's presence. I don't think there's a ton I really need to say about Quagsire that isn't already known, and whilst it as a standalone Pokemon is not broken, its influence on the tier is undeniable, and the way its able to act as somewhat of a 'safety blanket' for defensive builds is second to none. If a rise to S seems extreme, a rise to A+ would also be fine, but when I look at the VR I really do feel like Quagsire's impact on the tier far surpasses Golem, Monferno, Leafeon, or even Muk, so I really do feel like the middle of S would be the best spot for Quagsire.

Bronzor C- to B-
I think people are going a bit high on Bronzor right now, a rise from C- to B/B+ is just ridiculous, there is no way Bronzor is on the same level as the likes of Quilladin, Tangela, or Misdreavus. However, I think a rise to B- is warranted, its place in the current metagame reminds me very much of Pokemon like Chinchou. Whilst at first many believed that Bronzor was just a tech that found its way onto hard stall builds, there has recently been an increase of balance teams utilising Bronzor as a Stealth Rocker, as well as a reliable pivot into a number of common breakers from Golem to Stoutland. B- would see it alongside the likes of Chinchou and Klang. At the current time that seems to be about right for me, I could even see this thing rising further in the future.

Rapidash high A- to low A-
The immediate popularity of Quagsire has made the current landscape an unforgiving one for Rapidash since defensive teams are usually the archetype that Rapidash struggles with the most. As if Quagsire's introduction alone wasn't enough, Altaria has also experienced a spike in popularity recently thanks to the current stats of the metagame, adding just another hard counter to Rapidash into the mix of currently popular Pokemon. I'd honestly be fine with Rapidash dropping a whole tier, but some might think thats a bit extreme so I decided to go with just a drop to the bottom of the A- tier.

Audino low A- to high A-
The influx of Quagsire has led to an increase in the number of defensive teams, and a defensive metagame is a metagame in which Audino will shine brightest. Whilst Heal Bell Audino works as a fantastic cleric for a variety of defensive archetypes, Encore Audino is also fantastic set that works somewhat as a stallbreaker, whilst also having the capacity to shut down a variety of boosting sweepers. If you're building a defensive team, you're going to be hard pressed to find a reason not to put Audino on your squad, not to mention that it's still the most reliable Wish-passer in the tier, something that almost all defensive teams appreciate regardless of what else Audino brings to the table.

Beheeyem B to B+
Beheeyem is just about the only boosting stallbreaker that hasn't gotten worse with the introduction of Quagsire. Defensive Nasty Plot Beheeyem is one of the most consistent stallbreakers that the tier currently has to offer, and when you combine this with the fact that the Choice Specs set and even the bulkier Calm Mind sets are still both highly effective sets in the current metagame, it's pretty hard not to be for a Beheeyem rise.