Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion

[Slowbroth]

not gonna update the vr for a while, but i do have thoughts of my own i'd like to share after playing the meta for a few months. obviously the vr looks a bit wonky right now; there's a bit of unbalance in the A and B ranks, but luckily the meta has evolved to help that out.

Chinchou A to A-

chinchou isn't an inherently bad mon, but its rank as an A rank just oversells it a bit too much in my opinion. its a good electric type, but its not always the most splashable thing on teams, its speed is ok i guess, but it gets trapped by diglett and doesnt do as well vs more defensive teams that have been seeing more usage. if anything, i think lickitung is better than this at the moment. if i wanted a reliable water resist i'd use lombre and if i wanted a electric answer i'd probably use piloswine or sunflora. it is antimeta tho, ngl, punishing teams that rely on bulky waters as water resists.

Houndour A- to A

houndour is incredibly tough for teams to switch into that rely on wailord as their fire resist. fire + dark stab coverage is incredibly lethal in this metagame and pair it up with a slow paced metagame, houndour doesnt even fear that much about being outsped other than the common furrets and minuns (diglett is annoying tho). the only common things that switch into houndour is combusken, other houndour, crawdaunt, lickitung and defensive clamperl, thats pretty much it. houndour's ability to pursuit things is also really handy and gives it a huge niche in the metagame, trapping duskull, abra and even weakened things in general.

Koffing A- to B+

koffing also isn't a bad mon, but it definitely has fallen out of favor as of late as a fighting, grass and ground check, due to the rise in tropius. koffing's ability to burn and haze things still provides a lot of utilty for most teams, but more teams would prefer the reliability of synthesis tropius and moonlight dustox currently, as to not get worn down so quickly.

Seadra A- to B+

really not a fan of seadra since it dissapoints me every time i use it. both the sub petaya sets and aoa sets are just really meh because it's not as strong as you think it is and plus every team has at least 2 checks to it, whether it be a defensive water or grass, and a faster mon that can revenge it. each time i tried to sweep with seadra, it either never happened because hydro missed, seadra wasnt strong enough to pull off a ko, an opposing mon in the back walled it, or some other bs. just overall not impressed with this mon

Shuckle C+ to B+ (or higher)

i've used this a lot and it is borderline broken if given the right support. granted people are probably not used to prepping for shuckle because conventional ways of beating down walls or toxic stallers is to use set up moves or substitute, both of which shuckle prevent you from doing because of encore. this means that doubling to maintain offensive pressure + spikes, or taunt, or using a wallbreaker (see machoke or lairon) that doesn't mind toxic is your only real way of pressuring this thing, which imo does make teambuilding a bit tough. shuckle is definitely not a C mon, though; B+ would be an alright place to put it for now.

Pineco B to B+

i agree with whoever nommed this to B+; setting up entry hazards is incredibly useful in this meta, and has a good lead matchup vs things like furret meaning you get at least one spike up vs it. pineco's ability to set up spikes on passive things and then click explosion to nuke something gives it great utility and role compression. more people should be using this

Lairon B to B+

wanna stop shuckle from destroying your team? need a wallbreaker that doesnt mind toxic stallers? well here you go, look no further than lairon. although its not as great as graveler in terms of being a normal resist, its immunity to poison is really nice for things like dustox, shuckle and togetic which rely on toxic to wear things down. on top of this, there is practically nothing in the tier that takes steel / rock / ground hits (cb iron tail does 40 to defensive clamperl like what even) meaning that cb lairon is a great stallbreaker and wallbreaker at the same time. yes it gets trapped by diglett which is annoying, but outside of that and being slower than cb machoke, there is no reason lairon shouldnt rise to B+ with the current metagame trends

Tentacool B- to B

ive really liked using this mon not only as a water check to things like wailord or seadra, i've also liked it for being a reliable rapid spinner (that forces out most spikes setters) and status spreader and its ability in liquid ooze the real kicker here, being able to prevent leech seed or giga drain mons from doing their usual recovery. running toxic / surf / ice beam gives you a nice filler move, whether it be haze, giga drain or ice beam. B is a good place for it atm because it's actually worth running on some teams


Yanma B+ to B

i dont think yanma really is that good; its incredibly weak, frail and isnt even the best revenge killer because it can't actually kill anything. speed boost sweeping in the late game is fine, but theres probably so many better options for late game sweepers than yanma. B or even B- would suit it rn, due to the fact that it needs a lot of wallbreaking support to actually accomplish anything.

Combusken B- to B

an alternative to machoke, combusken has a niche of being a little bit faster and being able to beat down traditional fighting resists like tropius, pelipper, dustox and koffing. even though its a bit frail, combusken can shine vs more passive teams because it can set up swords dances easily. on top of this, it can also run a endure + reversal + salac set that does surprisingly well vs offensive teams. it's picking up usage and thus in viability, so a B rank would make sense atm

 

[Akir]

Announcement:

Gen4 PU will be suspect testing Drifblim!

Drifblim has been a menace in Gen4 PU since the discovery and exploration of SubCM sets a few months ago. Drifblim's large bulk and excellent typing means that setting up with Drifblim is easy, and with a Calm Mind and Unburden boost Drifblim can decimate the opponent. Even with the increased use of checks and counters such as Muk and Sneasel, Drifblim still sees massive success sweeping offensive teams and breaking defensive teams almost alone. Drifblim even has the ability to break through a good portion of its own counters with enough time, entry hazards, and Calm Mind boosts. Several other variants of Drifblim have also seen success, such as Lead Drifblim and Willo Drifblim, which are also very effective in their respective roles and make having a solid answer to Drifblim even more difficult. The continued success of Drifblim over the past couple months, even with the rise of so many new checks and counters, has made Drifblim a constant topic of heated discussion in Gen4 and warrants a suspect test.

The suspect will be decided by a Rotating Council, and this system will be adopted for future OldGen PU suspects. In order to qualify for the Rotating Council, you can:

1. Win a large, notable tournament. Examples of this are the PUPL and other subforum tournaments. There will only be 1 slot filled this way this time.
2. Win a suspect tournament. Times for these will be posted below. There will be 3 tournaments for this suspect.
3. Make a quality post about your thoughts on the suspect. There will be 2 possible slots that can be filled in this way at this time, but these slots are decided by the other chairs on the Rotating Council by the end of the suspect. There can be no one filling these slots at all, depending on quality.

What is a quality post?

A quality post on the suspect test will consist of a few things. The main thing to keep in mind is asking yourself, "if I could vote, what would my argument be?" Your answer will be your post.

Here are some pointers:

• Try to keep away from over-exaggeration. "Drifblim is the best thing in the tier ever" better be true, or it hurts your argument.
• Try to add a new viewpoint to what has already been discussed. The more information that is available, the better the final decision can be. You don't have to add a new viewpoint, but it does help.
• Go as in-depth as possible. Don't write a novel, but really explore and explain your ideas.
• Answer the question of "Why". Why is Drifblim bad/good for the metagame? Why is the presence of Drifblim unhealthy? Why is Drifblim perfectly fine in this metagame? Why should the people reading care about your idea?
• Try to format your post in an easily-readable way. This is the most minor point here, but formatting the layout of your post to be easier to read and using a good tone in your writing goes a long way.
• Have fun with your post! This is a hobby after all.

The Rotating Council for this suspect will have a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 7, including the project lead. A super-majority must be achieved in order for the ban to go through. A simple majority is not enough; 60% or more of the votes must be to ban.

Also no, this does not count towards any badges.

Suspect Tournament schedule:

Thursday April 27, 8pm EST
Saturday April 29, 2pm EST
Wednesday May 3, 8pm EST

The April 29 and May 3 tournament times are subject to time changes, however there will be an announcement if that is the case.

The suspect is over when the final suspect tournament is over, so good luck to everyone out there!

FAQs

• Suspect Tournaments will be held in private rooms on the main server, and will have Drifblim legal. If the tournament has >8 people, it will be Round Robin.
• The system for suspecting stuff is new, and is meant to be held long into the future.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

ADV PU Metagame Metamorphosis

I want to take the time to talk about how I see the ADV metagame changing and stabilizing into what I believe is shaping up to be a very fun and actually very balanced format. I'll walk through some of the more seen playstyles, Pokemon that should be prepared for, and general insight on the tier. This can be used as a resource for those of you who are just wanting to get into the tier or just as a way to document the evolution and early stages of the format as there is a good chance that once we get into the seventh generation of PU activity for this tier will drop significantly and this way we have a place just to go back start where we left off if interest peaks again after SM PU settles down and gets established.
​

Early Stages

At the beginning of ADV PU the first Pokemon to get attention was all the fast and hardest hitters the low player base could single out. With emphasize on the base 95 and 90 speed tiers as these are the biggest benchmarks in the tier there's only a handful of Pokemon who broke the base 95 speed tier and they are mediocre at best with Pokemon like Voltorb and Luvdisc. Furret stood out as a fast Normal-Type with access strong STAB in Double Edge and fantastic coverage to boot, Having very few reliable switch ins it dominated the early parts of the game. Wailord is a bulky Water-Type that soft checked a good deal of these hard hitting offensive Pokemon and hits incredibly hard with a full HP Water Spout, also having few switch ins at the beginning and able to stay at full rather easily with RestTalk it was one of the premiere S Ranks for a little while. Machoke became a stand out with its powerful attributes sporting decent bulk, great typing, strong STAB in Cross Chop complimented by solid coverage and a ton of sets, it was and still is a tough Pokemon to prepare for.To make this long story shorter basically at the very start it was Hyper Offense versus Hyper Offense very quick games and not very stable. Something was done about this early on as well with the advent of bulkier checks to these powerful attackers being sorted out which led the way for innovation and other playstyles to find their way into the tier.​

Balance Coming Through

With these fast and/or powerful threats dominating the very start of the metagame it wasn’t too long before defensive answers were found to some of the common Pokemon. Duskull comes to mind as an important discovery as it checks two very potent threats in Furret and Machoke, which at the time of this post are the S rank Pokemon of ADV PU. Sporting decent bulk it is able to switch into any non super effective hit with relative ease, and carrying moves like Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split and RestTalk it is able to switch in throughout the match when played conservatively. Machoke with its ability, Guts, is actually able to use Duskull as set-up fodder, easily taking a Night Shade or two than hitting it hard with ethir a boosted Rock Slide or Hidden Power Ghost. It was for those reasons Koffing started to see play as it can and should be carrying Haze to eliminate the stat boosts Machoke(and other set up sweepers, like Dragonair) allowing it to check set-up Pokemon much easier than Duskull. The down side to Koffing is that it can not switch in to Choice Band Furret as Double Edge scores the 2HKO, so it is often paired with a Rock-Type or Tropius. Tropius is a very solid glue Pokemon in its own right, not being one dimensional like some of the other defensive Pokemon of the tier such as Koffing. It is able to check both Furret and Machoke, sweep teams with Swords Dance, and act as a solid pivot, all in the same set making it very common on offensive and defensive teams alike. With teams putting so much focus on strong physical attackers special attackers started to run rampant, most notably Wailord and Clamperl, so checks had to be found for the likes of it as Water-Types are very good in the metagame as not many Pokemon can take Water plus ice coverage very well, normally complemented with Hidden Power Grass or Electric. At this point Sunflora started to see use as it has the special bulk and typing necessary to reliably switch in on Water-Types, also sporting reliable recovery in Synthesis and a nifty resistance to Electric, it is able to switch in on another very potent threat, Minun. Sunflora than found itself to be quite the offensive threat as well being able to run SubGrowth and SunnyBeam sets quite effectively. With this Grass became an important type to prepare for as unprepared teams fell very quickly to it. Now Pokemon like Koffing was getting very overwhelmed trying to check all these Pokemon, meaning you were left with two options when it came to teambuilding, you could chose to build offensively trying to overwhelm your opponent or you could put a heavy emphasis on your defensive core to try and check as much as possible, which segways perfectly into the next section.​

The Rise of Stall

Stall is starting to be seen more and more as of late, several factors contributed to this but it's hard to pinpoint what exactly lead this to be true. The earliest example I can
Think of is a team submission by Solar Flare demonstrating how effective a team of 5 “walls” can be whittling down teams with Toxic, and an added Diglett to not only revenge kill faster threats but also trap Poison and Steel types(immune to Toxic) can be. The discovery of Shuckle really is what made stall effective as it is one of the few Pokemon to reliably switch into Furret, along with other physical attackers and some special attackers as well. With Wish support and a cleric Shuckle can be incredibly difficult for other teams to take down as it is almost free to scout with Encore, or Wrap which can be used to prevent double switches, which compliments stall quite nicely. Stall is just a consistent way to get match ups as you are so prepared for most of what the metagame has, at that moment that is.​

Where I see the Metagame Heading.

As of the time this is posted I am seeing trends starting to arise to handle defensive teams much more effectively so they are not as centralizing as they were just a little while back. We are starting to see mixed attackers more often as they wallbreak more effectively than your stand alone special or physical attacks being able to lure and 2HKO common answers. Double Edge Wailord is a good example of this, as it is still able to hit hard with Water Spout but it also lures in Lombre and Sunflora easily doing massive damage with Double Edge. Lairon is picking up in use as it has an incredibly solid STAB in Iron Tail which most physical walls can not handle too well. We are seeing Substitute much more as well, which is very hard for stall to deal with as it easily takes advantage of the more passive Pokemon on stall. I’ve been seeing Pokemon like SubPunch Delibird with Ice Beam which defensive teams struggle to deal with as Fighting-Ice coverage is very hard to resist. SubSD Tropius is another Pokemon to come to mind as the best answer stall has to standard Tropius is Shuckle and while Shuckle has Encore to lock Tropius into Substitute or Swords Dance it can not break it’s Substitute so it can only get so far against it.​

In Conclusion

As I went through the rise of the different play styles one thing is becoming very clear, and that is that the playstyles are starting to balance each other out. The tier started with fast and hard hitters, which quickly moved into balance teams becoming the go to play style. With the rise of balance and discovers like Lombre and Shuckle stall started to see a fair share of use as a consistent playstyle. With stall becoming common you see powerful slow mixed wall breakers seeing use which overwhelms stall quite easily. With the slower powerful teams seeing more use we will see faster teams sprout up to take advantage of them, and with that you will see stall trying to handle the faster teams. As you can see it’s to the point where all playstyles are starting to have there place, so at this point the tier is feeling quite balanced and with more and more innovations sprouting up it feels safe to say it can only balance up more from here.​

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Drifblim is probably one of the hardest mons I've had to vote on in a suspect simply due to the fact that it's not hard to find viable checks for it but because it does have a fairly centralizing effect on the meta. Of the 10 viable teams I have, 5 of those have sneasel solely as a lazy check to drifblim. Sneasel isn't all that good to be honest. It has an excellent speed tier and it can function as a very reliable pursuit trapper but Poli on every team certainly drops its usefulness and I by no means think it's a normal occurrence that it shows up on 5/10 of my teams without much other reason to be there outside of revenging blim. There are other checks: Rest/talk Payback Muk, Probopass, Cacturne, Ice Punch Licki, Scarf Ebuzz (if drif is running bulk), Encore Lopunny but not many of them fit all types of builds and a lot of them can be pressured by other teammates while Drif remains in the back. I think I initially wasn't for a Drifblim ban because I had become so accustomed to running Sneasel and Cacturne to check it. Now that I look at my teams and various matches of viable non-sneasel/cact teams it's pretty apparent how Drifblim limits the choice of mons in the meta down to a couple that can revenge it and the viable builds around those. It finds setup on so many things thanks to its bulk so we're looking at Poliwrath, Victribell, Purugly, Metang, pretty much anything Tbolt/Shadowball forces out. It doesn't require any support from its teammates to get boosts so it's pretty self-sufficient in sweeping as well. After unburden and likely at at least +1 Drifblim can outspeed most of the unboosted tier to boot. Overall, I think I'm in favor of banning it based on the centralization of teambuilding that it forces the meta into and the sweeping potential it has at the slightest mistake made by your opponent.

 

[Plans]

This is a DPP post

When the Drifblim suspect test was first announced, I've made it clear through other channels that I'm taking the stance against banning. I want to expand on these thoughts here in the forum setting, and I hope more dpp players will post about their opinions because many users have nothing but these resources to work with. It is important to have a knowledgeable player base, especially when making a decision like this. Thanks to GA for breaking the ice so I don't have to try and explain everything by myself!

SubCM

Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Def / 108 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fighting

So why is Drifblim being suspect tested? It is the dominance of this one set that has initiated so much controversy. So that is all we should be discussing here, really. As stated in the OP, the combination of stats, typing, and ability help Drif to set up easily in this pu meta game. There is no doubt this has had a profound effect on team building. However, it is not as if Drifblim is without any checks or counters.

Is this over centralizing? My opinion is no, it is not. You do not have to dig deep into the tier list to find a mon that would not otherwise be viable just to prepare for this thing. In fact, with good team building it is somewhat easy to find answers just by coincidence. The likes of Muk, Cacturne, Electabuzz, etc are all easy to slap on teams and would still be over used without the presence of Drifblim. The rising use of hp fighting may make Cacturne and Probopass less reliable, but dropping thunderbolt as its last move opens up something like SpeDef Golbat to pressure it. That certainly is much more niche, but that leads me to my next point.

The exploration that has yet to be done makes me feel like this test is poorly timed. On most teams we see the same few counters being used. That can be taken advantage of by an experienced Drifblim user, but adjustments can be made. We have seen this already with a few quality lures. Both Purugly and Lickiliky, who were once used as set up fodder, can lure Drif using super effective coverage (shadow claw and ice punch respectively). Personally Im surprised it took so long for us as a community to make these adjustments common practice, but that is the good part of this suspect test. Alerting the whole community that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

The next point I'd like to bring up is Drifblim's dependence on boosting to make this impact. It needs to have both a CM or 2 with its unburden activated before it becomes out of hand. Sure it is much easier said than done, but put pressure on this thing to make sure it can't set up for free. A Drifblim user will often click substitute first to protect themselves from status and giving them a better chance at activating unburden under their own terms. Using taunt, encore, and phazers is a more direct approach to prevent a sweep. This can be done through using it as a lure, doubling to a fast encore/taunter like Lopunny, or using a defensive core that is highly prepared for this on defensive oriented teams. I don't have many specific examples at the moment, but this falls into the "more growth needed" argument.

tl;dr
So in summation, my opinion is Drifblim should not be banned and that the consequences of the test are short sighted. I feel Drifblim is not good or bad, but has a neutral impact on the meta game and the argument of centralization is over exaggerated. The argument of entry hazards helping to beat its counters is more an indictment on the tier itself and the same can be said of any potential sweeper. If Drif were to disappear from the tier, the spot light would be put on another controversial mon like Rhydon or Muk for similar reasons. There is no reason to ban something that is not broken on its own.

I am open to changing my opinion, because there absolutely is an argument to be had. That is why really I hope more users will make posts on this topic. It helps everyone involved to keep us as informed as possible and the more opinions contributed, the better.

 

[Aaronboyer]

I'm going to illustrate my feelings on the Drifblim Suspect Test in two parts. The 2nd part will be posted sometime in between the 2nd and 3rd Suspect Tournaments and will describe some of the other Drifblim's other sets besides SubCM. For now, I'd like to show you 2 Pokemon that have arisen in popularity to "check" Drifblim that to me are not actually sufficient checks.

Scarf Electabuzz

Electabuzz @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]/[Ice]
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Before Drifblim came along, Life Orb was the only set Electabuzz really ever ran. Buzz already hit an extremely high Speed Tier only bested (at +0) by the likes of Purugly and Sneasel. The ability to switch moves with great for it, and the extra power from Life Orb complemented its unique coverage moves. Alas, when Drifblim was introduced with its unprecedented ability Unburden, Electabuzz became one of many Pokemon swept underfoot by the Blimp. However, Electabuzz found a new Choice Scarf set that traded power and the ability to switch moves almost solely to outpace Drifblim. Eventually, some Drifblim users changed EV spreads so Drifblim could outpace Scarf Electabuzz, defeating the purpose of running Scarf Electabuzz in the first place. That's why it's not a sufficient check to Drifblim, in my opinion.

Sneasel

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick
- Punishment/Pursuit/Bite

On paper Sneasel sounds like the best Offensive check to Drifblim in the tier. In reality, Sneasel has 2 main problems. The first is being worn down too quickly. Entry Hazards + Life Orb and no reliable recovery means that Sneasel cannot switch directly into Drifblim. If Sneasel dares to do so, it will take a minimum roll 27.8% from Shadow Ball. Even worse, if Drifblim subs while Sneasel switches in, Drifblim can Thunderbolt the next turn, which does a minimum of 44.6%! The second problem, already having been iterated by GeneralAnnoyance, is that Poliwrath being on most teams is not very advantageous. This is not to discount Sneasel; it is very good at SD cleaning or Pursuit Trapping, but when it comes down to specifically trapping Drifblim, it doesn't do as well as it does on paper.

Gen 4 PU is currently revolved around preserving your Dirfblim checks when the 6th Pokemon revealed may not even be Drifblim. Drifblim is not broken, but this suspect test isn't about SubCM Drifblim being broken. This suspect test isn't about Drifblim being uncompetitive. This suspect test is about Drifblim being unhealthy for the tier. Players shouldn't have to run Ice Punch Lickilicky or Payback on RestTalk Muk specifically to beat one Pokemon. And while there are still great checks to Drifblim like Cacturne, Probopass, and Encore, teambuilding shouldn't have to be so restrictive. This proves that the metagame is indeed revolved around checking Drifblim and that is why, if given the chance, I will be voting to BAN Drifblim.

On a different subject...

Torterra Gen 5 Waiting to Be Ranked --> A
Torterra is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters, has reliable recovery, and good STAB coverage. It's Choice Band set is also something to be feared, picking up the 1 or 2HKO on everything in the tier that doesn't resist it with Wood Hammer.

Voltorb Gen 3 B- --> C+/C
The tier is not in dire need for a Rain Lead right now, and its role as a fast Electric-Type is generally outclassed by Minun. It still, however, has the highest base speed in the entire tier as well as have Explosion, Light Screen, and Taunt, which still gives Voltorb some utility.

 

[The Jungle Fox]

Warning: Gen 3 nom spam!

Unranked -> C/C+

Staryu is a great water type in ADV PU. It's got great speed, sitting at base 85, similar to Seadra. While it's not strong as the sea horse or as bulky and strong as Wailord, it still stands on its own. First of all, it's got better coverage than both of them. It has access to Thunderbolt, nailing opposing water types that would otherwise switch into it. Although I don't recommend, Psychic is also an option, since it scores a reliable 2HKO on Machoke (Hydro Pump does pretty much the same damage but its less accurate). However, the main perks is the utility Staryu brings to the table. It's the fastest and the most powerful Rapid Spinner in the tier, making it one of the few spinners that fit offense, while having a great matchup against all Spikes setters. Staryu is also the only spinner with access to reliable recovery in Recover, which means it isn't worn down as easily as Pineco, for example, would be. I don't have any replays though, but Staryu is definitely decent enough to warrant a rank.

B- -> B

Doduo is very similar to Furret. They are both fast, frail, powerful wallbreakers. Doduo has got a few things going for it over Furret, though. First of all, it has better attack stat, which means it is hitting harder. Also, Flying-type gives it an immunity to Spikes, so it gets less worn down via Spikes, which are getting common in this meta. Doduo also possesses a very strong secondary STAB in Drill Peck, which nails a lot of common normal checks such as Tropius and Duskull (scoring the 2HKO with just a tiny chip). Drill Peck also gives Doduo a spammable move that doesn't kill itself. The raw power of its dual STABs mean it doesn't need as much coverage or predicts as Furret would do, since the only things that switch into its STABs are threatened by HP Ground and are easily trapped by one of the most common Doduo's partners, Diglett. The drawback of running Doduo over Furret is almost solely the speed, which misses out on tying with base 90. Overall, Doduo is a very solid Normal-type in this meta and deserves to be higher.

C- -> C

Elekid is an underrated Electric-type. While it does seem outclassed by Minun due being sightly weaker, it has a much larger movepool. Notably, its access to Ice Punch allows it to chip (and, in the long run, beating) common electric checks. Notably, Ice Punch frees its slot, allowing it to run HP Grass and beat Chinchou and chip Piloswine. The last slot is free to run whatever suits the team better. Psychic, for example, scores a 2HKO on Machoke. Toxic lets it cripple walls that can switch into it, such as Lickitung and Piloswine and Thunder Wave let it support the team by slowing down a threat, letting slower mons shine. Its still weaker than Minun though, and it misses out on good utility moves such as Baton Pass and Encore, but its still a decent pick.


I second the Voltorb nom. Rain is not really meta right now with so many water resists because of how threatening Wailord is, and while Voltorb is a great lead, Rain not being good impacts on its viability.

A -> A-

Dragonair might be threatening, but I feel the meta hasn't been kind to it. First of all, the lack of a good special STAB really hurts Agility sets' viability, since they are only going to be used to surprise DD's standard checks. It does have good coverage moves, but lacks of power boosting makes it easy to check. About Dragon Dance sets, it suffers from being easy to check, while being also difficult to set up. Yes, pure Dragon is a great defensive typing and it has decent bulk, but with all the power creep running around to break through Stall teams which have been catching attention lately, its more difficult to set up. Dragonair doesn't pose as that much of a threat vs. those defensive teams, since its not that difficult to have a physical sponge, such as Shuckle or Tropius, that happens to check it. It's still threatening, just not as much.

C- -> Unranked

I don't really understand why Quilava was ranked in first place. Its stats the same as Charmeleon's, no exceptions. However, Charmeleon has access to a sightly better movepool due its Dragon Claw access, also BD and DD gimmicks which aren't really good but its an option. Quilava just has no niche over other Fire-types.

C- -> Unranked

This one has been a hot topic. Aipom just has no niche over Furret. Is Screech really that good? Ok, I get it, it forces switches, but Furret itself already does that and doesn't waste a slot on a move, freeing it up for Quick Attack, which is very good in a meta with fast sweepers such as SunnyBeam Sunflora and SubSalac or EndureSalac users. Agilitypass sets are also outclassed by a lot of other mons such as Minun and Beedrill due their better defensive typing, bulk, speed or utility on the long run. To sum things up, Aipom doesn't deserve to be ranked.

 

[Solar Flare]

incoming another long winded ADV nomination:

Delibird from Unranked to C (or C+)

Yeah, I already brought this up before. However, I thought this would be worth reposting about and going a little more in-depth and cleaning up my argument a bit. Delibird is a niche but effective mon in the current metagame thanks to its awesome coverage options, or most notably Focus Punch and Ice Beam. These two moves, when used together, allow Delibird to break a large portion of the metagame. Additionally, Delibird has Hustle which boosts the power of its physical attacks considerably making Delibird an offensive threat that is, when used correctly, hard to switch into. Thanks to these traits, as well as its decent speed tier of 75, Delibird can rip apart the slower, bulkier teams that have been becoming more and more popular in the current metagame.

The Set

Delibird @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Ice Beam
- Focus Punch
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Aerial Ace
- Substitute

calcs

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Furret: 450-530 (144.2 - 169.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machoke: 295-348 (98 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 293-345 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can be followed up w/ HP Flying)

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sunflora: 357-420 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

40 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Graveler: 316-372 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

40 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tropius: 380-448 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Focus Punch vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Piloswine: 375-442 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (if you're surprised by this, so am I)

40 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Koffing: 158-186 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 328-387 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-567901423 Melancholy Blues

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-567077572 vs ShuckleDeath

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-568458050 vs 5gen

 

[Honko]

I'd be sad to see Drifblim go because it's one of my favorite Pokemon to build around in DPP (both in PU and NU). It's a very fun Pokemon to use because it has so many cool options, and most of them are totally unlike anything that any other Pokemon runs. Unfortunately though I think that flexibility also makes it unhealthy for this metagame. The basic offensive SubCM set that Plans posted is by far the most popular set right now, and it's very solid, but now that it's no longer being overlooked, people have found some good checks for it. The problem is that Drifblim still has a lot of good options that are still being discovered that can get past each of those checks. I've already seen HP Fighting/Ground/Flying and Will-O-Wisp to beat checks like Cacturne and Muk, and faster EV spreads to beat Scarf Electabuzz, but even if the meta adjusts to those variations, Drifblim still has plenty of tricks that it can use to stay ahead. It could start running bulkier spreads to set up more boosts (the difference in what it can survive between 108 Def and 252 Def is huge). It could start running ChestoRest if hitting it with status on the switch becomes a popular counter-play. It could start running Petaya Berry to sweep without needing to boost, or even Endure + Petaya to potentially beat things like LO Electabuzz 1v1. Explosion is extremely underrated in general in PU right now imo, but especially on Drifblim who can use it to reliably OHKO many of its defensive counters and open a hole for a teammate. Destiny Bond does the same to most offensive counters.

Obviously, it can't do all of these things in one set, and many of them may not even be worth using in the current meta. My point is that it has all of these options (and more; I haven't even mentioned BP yet) available to it, and so I don't foresee there ever being a PU meta where teams can adequately prepare for everything Drifblim can do. It's too strong right now, and even if the meta adapts to its current sets, I think it will be able to adapt in response and remain too strong.

(Plus, it probably should never have been PU anyway. The NU stats used to create PU were based on only around 500 battles, and using the 1630 weighting on such a small sample means they was strongly weighted to only a few players and whatever teams they happened to ladder with. If we had a larger sample I'm pretty confident Drifblim, along with Lickilicky and Poliwrath, would have ended up in NU.)

On another DPP note, Golduck strikes me as a Pokemon that has undeservedly fallen from grace. It was pretty popular in the early meta as a counter to sun, but I haven't seen it much at all since sun teams faded away. It's still an excellent offensive Water-type, with the best combination of power and speed of any Water-type in the tier, plus it has a relatively fast Encore that lets it disrupt things like Drifblim, Monferno, and Golbat. It doesn't have the same defensive utility as things like Poliwrath and Pelipper but it's still an excellent choice if you need something a little faster or stronger.

On a random ADV note, I'm confused by all the sample sets I'm seeing that use Charcoal/Silk Scarf/Magnet/etc. It's only a 10% boost in ADV and that doesn't seem like it would ever be worth it except maybe on something SUPER frail like Abra. On anything else, if you don't want the recovery from Lefties, a pinch berry still seems like a much better choice. Even fragile stuff like Ponyta or Houndour can usually survive 1 hit, and the chance of getting +1 SpA or +1 Spe that will let you break through more walls or outspeed your usual revenge killers seems a lot more valuable in the long run than a lousy 10% boost to one move.

 

[Solar Flare]

Here comes a mass response to some of the ADV PU nominations
Voltorb from B- to C+ / C - Agree

I think others have already answered why this should drop decently well. It's main role is rain lead, and although it does that job well, rain is just not that popular at the minute so Voltorb doesn't have much reason to be used right now. It does have some good utility in taunt, screens, etc though.

Staryu from unranked to C - Agree

Staryu is a pretty niche mon right now as its among the fastest water types in the tier with the likes of Seadra, who it ties with, and Kingler. It also has Thunderbolt which is very rare for waters to have, and is valuable in taking out opposing waters (for example, it can 2hko Wailord with Thunderbolt: 252 SpA Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wailord: 260-306 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Finally, it also gets Rapid Spin which despite spikes being fairly uncommon is still useful.

Doduo from B- to B - Agree

Doduo is very cool at the moment, being one of the best flail mons in the tier as well as being an overall decent choice band abuser thanks to its amazing stab option in Drill Peck as well as the always appreciated stab Double-Edge. It also has perfect coverage with Hidden Power Ground, so its very hard to wall in the current metagame. Only thing holding it back is its fairly poor speed for a mon as frail as it is at only 75.

Dragonair from A to A- - Agree

Not much to say on this one. It's Dragonair. It lacks good coverage options for DD sets which on its own isn't a problem but with bulkier teams becoming more prominent does make it harder to setup and put in work. Specially, its only good stab option is HP Dragon which is only 70 base power. It does have good coverage but its dependent on SE hits to get any major kills. This is increasingly difficult for it with the rise of bulkier teams which carry things like Lombre and Lickitung, both of which don't take too much from Dragonair's coverage.

Quilava from C- to Unranked - Agree

Quilava's one major thing it has going for it is the mixed enduresalac set. On paper, its a very good set, as having a 200 base power fighting move + stab blaze fire moves is a really good combo. However, the set manages to miss out on a lot of kills and overall flops in the current meta. Not only this, but this is Quilava's only outstanding set. other than that, Quilava is a carbon copy Charmeleon running the same special attacker set.

Aipom from C- to Unraked - Agree

Early in the meta, Aipom was actually a fairly threatening mon thanks to screech, as well as baton pass sets. With the meta quickly becoming bulkier and bulkier, and Aipom not getting any stronger, it's beginning to struggle more than I thought. On paper, the screech+3 attacks set works exactly the same as before. Screech something, and basically have a +2 attack on the target. This can force switches, or allow Aipom to get kills it couldn't before. At the moment though Aipom's screech set is just not cutting it. It fails to KO many mons in the meta even at the pseudo +2, and all other sets it has are painfully outclassed by other mons in the current meta. The only way Aipom will come back into the meta is if it gets much less bulky or if something like Furret is deleted from the game.

 

[Aaronboyer]

Warning: Long Post...
Drifblim Suspect Part 2

I believe Honko did a very good job at iterating that Drifblim's movepool is so expansive that whatever DPP PU tries to do to adapt to it, Drifblim will be able to adapt right back. I was going to list some of Drifblim's other sets, but now I'm rather go through Drifblim's noteworthy moves one by one.

Physical

• Explosion--Explosion, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated moves Drifblim has in its arsenal. Most of Drifblim's typical counters: Lickilicky, Cacturne, Muk, etc. are Specially Defensive, and even with no investment, Explosion can OHKO or severely dent anything that comes against it.
• Natural Gift--Natural Gift works extremely well in tandem with its ability Unburden and a Salac Berry (80 Base Fighting). This launches a SE attack into Cacturne, Lickilicky, and Sneasel that will either KO or cripple Drifblim's check.
• Sucker Punch--Sucker Punch aims to pick off some of its frailer checks after they've taken previous Life Orb and/or Hazards Damage. Examples include Sneasel and Scarf Electabuzz.

Special

• Thunder/Weather Ball--Drifblim is one of the better Rain Leads in DPP PU due to having a unique combination of Thunder + Weather Ball, only otherwise held by Castform. Access to Explosion/Baton Pass help conserve the number of Rain turns left in play by keeping team momentum. However, Drifblim can also play an Offensive Rain Sweeper role of need be.
• Psychic--One of Drifblim's most reliable checks is RestTalk Payback Muk. However, with +1 Psychic, Drifblim is able to pick up the 2HKO. Psychic also nails Machoke and does slightly less damage to Poliwrath than Tbolt.
• Hidden Power--HP Fighting, Flying, and Ground have all already been proving to make great strides at specifically taking down its checks with the certain type. What's great about Hidden Power is that it can be customizable to whatever your team lacks in. Weak to Probopass and ScarfBuzz? HP Ground. Weak to Bellossom and Poliwrath? HP Flying. You get the picture.
• Shadow Ball & Thunderbolt--The 2 most common moves found on Drifblim's SubCM set. Shadow ball is Drifblim's strongest STAB option whilst Thunderbolt is Drifblim's strongest nonSTAB option. Pretty standard stuff.

Status

• Calm Mind, Stockpile, and Baton Pass--Chrisloud has already touched on StockPass Drifblim previously. However, Drifblim can also pass Calm Minds to teammates as well. Passing Liechi, Petaya, and Salac Berry boosts also are options and they trigger Unburden as well.
• Destiny Bond--Insures that Drifblim will always get one kill, being able to incapacitate at least 2 Pokemon a game in tandem with...
• Hypnosis--Drifblim has to induce 4 types of Status-Conditions, this one being sleep. Whilst in the lead position and a Focus Sash in hand. Drifblim will have a 84% chance to land Hypnosis in 2 turns, having the option to switch into another Pokemon or start firing off hits of its own.
• Will-o-Wisp--With most of Drifblim's "checks" wanting to hit it on the physical spectrum where Drifblim will not be boosting itself for, cutting in half the Attack stat of Cacturne, Muk, Sneasel, Lickilicky, Lopunny, Purugly, etc. feels so nice.
• Toxic--Toxic wears down its checks (that aren't Muk) faster than Will-O.
  
• Memento--The 2nd scariest move in Drifblim's arsenal (1st being Explosion). When Drifblim is ready to call it quits, one move can give a teammate like SubBDPoli, DD Rhydon, or CroMuk a window of opprotunity to setup sweep.
• Pain Split--Drifblim's Pseudo recovery move. Works well with Drifblim variants that utilize Substitute
  
• Rest--Works well in combination with a Lum Berry to rest full HP and activate Unburden

Overall, I believe Drifblim's movepool versatility in combination with Unburden and a limited number of checks/counters that restrict teambuilding will have me, if given the chance, vote to BAN Drifblim.

Gen 3 VR

Staryu Unranked --> C Agree

I personally would have ranked it higher, but I suppose this is a good place to start. Being the fastest Rapid Spinners in the tier, as well as having unique offensive coverage moves only matched by Chinchou make it a great alternative to Pineco or Anorith for Rapid Spinning.

Dragonair A --> A- On the Fence

I do agree with Dragonair having more issues than ever before in the face of bulkier teams. There is the fact, however, that Dragonair has 2 completely different set of counters based on if its Physical with DD or Special with Agility + 3 Attacks. In my experience, both sets do extremely well against Shuckle, being able to break through either with Iron Tail or (A new innovation I've found in) Surf, while Shed Skin wears off any attempt Shuckle had to Stall Dragonair out. Shuckle is not the end all be all to more defensively inclinded teams, but I think its a significant portion of Stall and such. If any changes are to be made with where Dragonair is at, I think it needs to move down within A Rank.

Delibird Unranked --> C Disagree

Delibird may have some niche as a Rapid Spinner that is immune to Spikes, but an Mixed Offensive set on a Pokemon with 45/45/45 defenses isn't worth it to me compared to other bulkier Flying types like Tropius or other Mixed Ice-Type Attackers like Piloswine. Maybe its worth D Rank, but for now I'd like to just leave it unranked.

Quilava C- --> Unranked Agree

It's completely outclassed by Charmeleon other than Reversal. If I want a Fire-Type with Fighting-Type coverage, I'll go with Combusken. Unrank this please.

Gen 4 Team

Dan Brifblim!

Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Mild Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Explosion
- Hypnosis

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Poison Jab
- Focus Punch
- Shadow Sneak

Gastrodon-East @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 108 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Recover

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SpA / 220 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Stun Spore
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Vacuum Wave

Electabuzz @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Description

This team revolves around incapacitating 1-2 Pokemon using Lead Hypnosis Drifblim and then shuffling/chipping the opponent's team so that you can clean with LO Electabuzz. I wanted to post this team before Drifblim (possibly) gets banned. I hope you enjoy.

Replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4uu-569187510
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4uu-569379694

Gen 5 VR

Audino B --> A

Audino holds alot of the utility it has in Gen 6 PU. It can pass large wishes without having to worry about healing itself due to Regenerator and can provide Knock Off, Toxic, and Heal Bell support. Not alot to say, as its almost identical to Gen 6 Audino.

Machoke B --> A

Machoke is one of the best Fighting-Types in the tier. With access to Eviolite and No Guard Dynamic Punch, Machoke can even break through Pokemon that would otherwise counter it (ex. Jumpluff) Also has great coverage moves in Payback, Earthquake, and Stone Edge, and can make use of its high bulk to utilize a RestTalk set. iRebel would be the first person to tell you how much of a nuisance playing against this thing can be.

 

[Akir]

Announcement:

The May 3rd Suspect Tournament for Gen4 Drifblim has been moved to the later time of 8pm EST!

I will be adding my thoughts on the suspect to this post later, but for now I wanted to make this announcement as quickly as possible.

 

[Aaronboyer]

Shedinja Offense

Team Importable

Furret @ Choice Band
Ability: Keen Eye
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Shadow Ball
- Brick Break
- Quick Attack

Minun @ Leftovers
Ability: Minus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Agility
- Baton Pass

Tropius @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake

Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Fury Cutter

Staryu @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Toxic

Machoke @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

Description + Sheddy for C-

This team takes advantage of the fact that Minuns usually carry HP Grass, which scare away Graveler and Piloswine that beats Minun + Shedinja. This allows Minun be able to set up a Substitute and Agility and BP into SD Shedinja fairly easily. Tropius also appreciates the speed boost and is a secondary SD sweeper that also has a ground immunity. Furret and Machoke are standard and Staryu provides offensive Rapid Spin support so Shedinja isn't auto-death fodder. This team does not do well against stall, especially Shuckle although Staryu's Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO.

As for the Shedinja nomination, while it may have only 1 HP, Shedinja boasts 12 immunities and a base 90 Attack stat with a Base 80 STAB Physical Shadow Ball. Shedinja is immune to several top threats in the tier, such as Offensive and Physically Biased AoA Wailord, Minun, DD Dragonair, RestTalk Piloswine, and Seadra, and CB Furret locked into anything besides Shadow Ball. Unfortunately, running Shedinja also means mandatory Rapid Spin and other team restrictions, but for the right team, Shedinja can be an absolute monster. It also hands down the best Pokemon in D Rank currently.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-570783661
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-570791974
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-570802803
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-570814264

EDIT: Shedinja is now C-. Hooray!

 

[pancake]

Sorry for my salt regarding choking/getting lucked in the suspect tours and my post deleting itself, as well as my immaturity in general lately tbh. Going through some personal shit that's been very hard for me so thanks for always supporting me guys. :)

Now... I bring you my thoughts on the Drifblim suspect.

First I will go over some arguments already made by others to emphasize some very important points.

• 
  Drifblim is centralizing to the point that it is unhealthy.

As GeneralAnnoyance put it, if I am running offense, I've got a very limited set of Pokemon to choose from to check Drifblim, and even these risk keeling over to one of Drifblim's coverage moves. In a metagame that Drifblim is, the entire meta is reduced to a small set of Pokemon that can revenge kill Drifblim or prevent it from setting up a Substitute. This is extremely unhealthy, as without Drifblim here, teambuilding won't be as constrained as it is now.

• 
  The metagame will adapt to Drifblim, but Drifblim can easily adapt to the metagame due to its huge movepool and variety of sets.

Drifblim was mainly suspected because its SubCM set was deemed broken. However, Drifblim's movepool is huge! The main move I want to highlight here is... you guessed it. Baton Pass. Calm Mind + Baton Pass and even Stockpile + Baton Pass can allow Drifblim to circumvent its typical checks and counters by passing boosts to a mon with a better matchup. There's also Hidden Power Ground, Flying, and Fighting, Explosion, SubPetaya, Psychic, Choice Scarf Trick, WoW, and Destiny Bond... Drifblim has all of the tools that it needs to get around what "checks" it currently, as many have stated in the past. Also Lead Drifblim is so good lol s/o bp and tj

Next, I will talk about some arguments for the other side and why either I disagree with them or why the pros outweigh that particular con.

• 
  "Ways to beat Drifblim haven't been explored yet."

This connects directly to the point that Drifblim's insane movepool will let it adapt to whatever meta it is in. For example, Plans lists Ice Punch Lickilicky as a potential way to beat Drifblim, but if that becomes popular than you can run Hidden Power Fighting or Choice Scarf Trick, stuff that cripples or deals a lot of damage to Lickilicky. You also list Taunt, Encore, and Whirlwind as other checks, but some of these are being explored already and Drifblim can play around them. So, even though there may be more ways to beat Drifblim, it will nearly always be able to get around them.

• 
  "SubCM Drifblim relies on boosting to do any meaningful damage."

I mean I agree that unboosted Shadow Ball doesn't do too much damage, this implies that it is difficult to set up with Drifblim, which it is not, as I will go into later. Additionally, some of the things that can switch into unboosted Shadow Ball can subsequently be set up on, such as CroMuk. Not much else to say here, but this con is heavily outweighed by Drifblim's general brokenness.

Finally, I will introduce my own arguments. I was going to talk about Stockpile pass and shit like that but I got sniped :[

• 
  It is not difficult to carve out set-up opportunities for Drifblim.

It is impossible to not run something Drifblim can set up on while not making your team extremely weak to something else. Pokemon like Victreebel, Poliwrath, non-Shadow Claw purugly... etc. are nearly vital to certain teams' playstyles and Drifblim can set up on all of them. One could argue that these Pokemon will become less popular to an extent due to Drifblim but then you make stuff that is hindered greatly by their overwhelming presence i.e. Rhydon broken and that creates somewhat of a "tornado" metagame where things alternate being broken, which is not healthy.

• 
  Due to the nature of lack of team preview, it is easy to weaken Drifblim's checks and counters.

This connects to another very important point, which is that Drifblim's effectiveness is bolstered moreso than other sweepers due to the lack of team preview. It is impossible to play as if Drifblim is the last mon all of the time because most of the time, it's not going to be, for obvious reasons, and then you're going to lose. As a result, it is not difficult to force opponents to wear down Drifblim's limited checks and counters and then easily orchestrate a sweep lategame. Other sweeper have this similar characteristic, but Drifblim's form of this is much more severe than any of their versions because of its volatility, coverage, and ability to easily set up.

In conclusion, as much as I love Drifblim, I am confident that it is broken in this metagame for the reasons listed. I was going to post about a few fun sets here too but I'm really tired right now so I think I'll wait until another post for those. Once again apologies for salt/shit lately. Thanks guys.

 

[Akir]

Gen4 PU Drifblim Results:

Not all of the votes are in, but the votes have already reached the 5 votes necessary to ban. So, Drifblim is now banned from Gen4 PU!

Here is the rotating council for this suspect (all votes are anonymous unless the person wants to state it):

Akir
Generalannoyance (GA's vote + reasoning)
Zoowi
5gen (5gen's vote + reasoning)
PokemonMasterTj
Honko (Honko's vote + reasoning)
-

Thank you to everyone who participated! This suspect was a highly-debated topic, with strong points on both sides that ended with a lot of interesting debate.

Again, thanks to everyone who participated and made both this suspect and the test flight of this suspect system a success. Now go enjoy the new Gen4 PU metagame!

 

[5gen]

Drifblim has been banned but I just wanna respond to Plans because I voted for ban myself.

SubCM

Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Def / 108 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fighting

So why is Drifblim being suspect tested? It is the dominance of this one set that has initiated so much controversy. So that is all we should be discussing here, really. As stated in the OP, the combination of stats, typing, and ability help Drif to set up easily in this pu meta game. There is no doubt this has had a profound effect on team building. However, it is not as if Drifblim is without any checks or counters.
Is this over centralizing? My opinion is no, it is not. You do not have to dig deep into the tier list to find a mon that would not otherwise be viable just to prepare for this thing. In fact, with good team building it is somewhat easy to find answers just by coincidence. The likes of Muk, Cacturne, Electabuzz, etc are all easy to slap on teams and would still be over used without the presence of Drifblim. The rising use of hp fighting may make Cacturne and Probopass less reliable, but dropping thunderbolt as its last move opens up something like SpeDef Golbat to pressure it. That certainly is much more niche, but that leads me to my next point.

GeneralAnnoyance touched upon how Driblim's checks and counters can be taken care of by its teammates, "not many of them fit all types of builds and a lot of them can be pressured by other teammates while Drif remains in the back", but I really want to emphasize this particular point. In my opinion, preparing for usual CM Drifblim checks via "good team building" was as easy or easier than it was for most teams to prepare for it. Poliwrath, Rhydon, Spikes Glalie, Machoke, and CB Gabite are just some strong threats that were able to help weaken teams for a CM Drifblim sweep. Essentially, CM Drifblim checks were common place but so were Pokémon that could take advantage of them.

The exploration that has yet to be done makes me feel like this test is poorly timed. On most teams we see the same few counters being used. That can be taken advantage of by an experienced Drifblim user, but adjustments can be made. We have seen this already with a few quality lures. Both Purugly and Lickiliky, who were once used as set up fodder, can lure Drif using super effective coverage (shadow claw and ice punch respectively). Personally Im surprised it took so long for us as a community to make these adjustments common practice, but that is the good part of this suspect test. Alerting the whole community that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Don't want to rehash previous points made about the flexibility Drifblim has and how it can lure its own checks, as Honko and pancake talked about. What I will say though is that there were indeed some lesser used Drifblim checks. Some interesting ones to note are Sp Def Amphy, Gastrodon, Articuno, and Encore Vigoroth/Lopunny/Raichu. The downside of integrating more "niche" mons to cover potential CM Drifblims is one, what if it isn't CM? And two, worse off in other matchups such as facing Sun, Rhydon, and hazard stack. For example, Explosion Drifblim punches holes through the defensive core of Lickilicky, Muk, and Bellosom, a combination of Pokémon that could otherwise deal with CM sets. Furthermore, more niche Pokémon such as Ampharos, Articuno, and Gastrodon are inherently weak defensively to EdgeQuake, Sun Sweepers like Vic, and entry hazards (in the case of Amphy/Cuno) respectively.

The next point I'd like to bring up is Drifblim's dependence on boosting to make this impact. It needs to have both a CM or 2 with its unburden activated before it becomes out of hand. Sure it is much easier said than done, but put pressure on this thing to make sure it can't set up for free. A Drifblim user will often click substitute first to protect themselves from status and giving them a better chance at activating unburden under their own terms. Using taunt, encore, and phazers is a more direct approach to prevent a sweep. This can be done through using it as a lure, doubling to a fast encore/taunter like Lopunny, or using a defensive core that is highly prepared for this on defensive oriented teams. I don't have many specific examples at the moment, but this falls into the "more growth needed" argument.

The point of Drifblim being weak without boosts is true for Calm Mind sets typically, but it will almost always snatch a boost or two alongside chewing a hit and activating Unburden. Drifblim is not meant to break through teams, that's what its teammates are for. As such, Drifblim was a very potent mid-to-late game sweeper because itcould set up so easily by virtue of typing, bulk, and Speed. What you fail to take into account is the fact it has more than one set. Play thinking Drifblim is going to sweep but it clicks Baton Pass. Switch in your Muk and you get boomed on. This mon had a plethora of viable sets which made it so hard to account for, ultimately having a centralizing effect on the tier. I'll stop talking about switch-ins to Drifblim in favor of different counterplay (to CM/boosting sets) we had available. Let's take a look at the viable Taunt, Encore, and Phazing/Hazing Pokémon:

• Taunt: Slow, bulky Pokémon don't really take on Drifblim consistently (SpD Sableye is beat, Golbat loses to Tbolt, Probo to HP Fighting). Purugly, Sneasle, Misdreavus, Glalie, Monferno, and Murkrow can opt to Taunt or straight up attack it, but will typically scare it out anyways.
• Encore: Here's where things get interesting imo. Encore is such as great move in gen4, working for 3-7 turns. Kadabra, Raichu, Lopunny, Vigoroth, and Chatot can outspeed, Encore, and proceed to attack Drifblim or switch out into a more optimal matchup. These set of Pokémon were namely seen on offensive or balance teams, providing good counterplay vs CM Drifblim and allowed teams to check it well (before unburden).
• Haze/Phazing: Scarce to say the least. Tried out SpD Haze Poliwrath which performed poorly for me. SpD Cuno much prefers Sub Toxic than Haze sets imo. Flareon can Wish+Roar but is worn down easily with Rocks up and repeatedly switching into Drifblim. Also easy to take advantage of due to passiveness. Golbat can pull off Whirlwind sets if specially defensive, but it doesn't fare well against Tbolt variants or against a +1 Drifblim. I found this category of checks only fit on balance, semi-stall, or full stall due to their passive nature.

So in summation, my opinion is Drifblim should not be banned and that the consequences of the test are short sighted. I feel Drifblim is not good or bad, but has a neutral impact on the meta game and the argument of centralization is over exaggerated. The argument of entry hazards helping to beat its counters is more an indictment on the tier itself and the same can be said of any potential sweeper. If Drif were to disappear from the tier, the spot light would be put on another controversial mon like Rhydon or Muk for similar reasons. There is no reason to ban something that is not broken on its own.

I am open to changing my opinion, because there absolutely is an argument to be had. That is why really I hope more users will make posts on this topic. It helps everyone involved to keep us as informed as possible and the more opinions contributed, the better.

I voted to ban Drifblim because I felt it was too much of a centralizing force in the tier with flexibility great enough to overcome typical checks and counters. Baton Pass sets were uncompetitive to an extent also. Drifblim had all the tools necessary for a top-tier threat, ultimately I felt its unhealthy traits on the meta far outweighed the good ones.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Murkrow from B- > B+

Set

Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Heat Wave
- Pursuit

Murkrow is truly one of the most underrated mons on viability right now. Not only does it sit at such a coveted speed tier of base 91 (allowing it to outspeed the whole lot of base 80s and dreavus) but it also has access to STAB of two of the most effective typings in PU and coverage to OHKO near everything in DPP outside of Probopass. So the way I've been using this set is to trap mons slower than murkrow with pursuit and then get a 2 for 1 kill on the would be sack thanks to the broken mechanic that forces you into your switch selection rather than letting you re-choose after you get pursuit killed. Krow is honestly so good in DPP and I feel as though it has a lot going for it as a powerful flying type that has room for special coverage to break its switch-ins like Rhydon and Metang. I found that using it on offense/HO is the best fit for it and it does well when paired with Purugly, Sub Punch Muk, or Gastrodon as a bulky pivot for Metang/Rhydon/Poli (whichever you aren't running coverage for).

Relevant Calcs

4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metang: 190-224 (72.7 - 85.8%)
4 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 369-437 (105.1 - 124.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 195-229 (74.7 - 87.7%) (This is the base 40 pursuit and it still does heavy damage)

252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Murkrow: 94-112 (36 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Important to know when you're no longer able to stay in on Poli)

 

[Akir]

Announcement:

Gen3 PU has a tier shift!

So after reviewing Gen3 tiering, it was learned by myself and many others that Gen3 tiers are NOT made through usage. Instead, Gen3 tiers are created through a combination of VR cutoffs and community opinion. Do to this, the Gen3 PU mons list has been reworked and updated and comes with several pros and cons. Thanks to everyone who helped create this new list! (Especially Disjunction)

Pros:

• The tier is now standardized with all other tiers in Gen3, so it is now very accurate.
• There has been minor discussion of including Gen3 PU in larger ADV forum tournaments.
• You got all of the bans you were asking for!!!

Cons:

• 80% of the metagame is gone.
• Most of the mons lost are offensive mons.
• No new mons joined the tier.
• Actually, here's the list of all the mons that were lost:

Pokemon that went to ADV NU

Abra
Ariados
Castform
Charmeleon
Crawdaunt
Diglett
Furret
Graveller
Kingler
Lairon
Lickitung
Machoke
Magby
Magcargo
Noctowl
Pelipper
Piloswine
Seadra
Seviper
Shedinja
Togetic
Tropius
Venomoth
Wailord
Wartortle
Wigglytuff

So with all of the shifts, the tier is left with this list:

New Full List of ADV PU

Aipom
Beautifly
Beedrill
Butterfree
Clamperl
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dragonair
Dunsparce
Dustox
Farfetch'd
Illumise
Ledian
Luvdisc
Masquerain
Mightyena
Minun
Nosepass
Parasect
Quilava
Seaking
Sealeo
Shuckle
Spinda
Sunflora
Trapinch
Unown
Volbeat
Weepinbell
Yanma

NFEs

Bayleef
Cascoon
Clefairy
Combusken
Croconaw
Flaafy
Gloom
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Kakuna
Kirlia
Lombre
Loudred
Marill
Marshtomp
Metapod
Nidorina
Nidorino
Nuzleaf
Pidgeotto
Silcoon
Skiploom
Vibrava

LC/First Stage

Anorith
Aron
Azurill
Bagon
Baltoy
Barboach
Beldum
Bellsprout
Bulbasaur
Cacnea
Carvanha
Caterpie
Charmander
Chikorita
Chinchou
Cleffa
Corphish
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Doduo
Dratini
Drowzee
Duskull
Eevee
Ekans
Electrike
Elekid
Exeggcute
Feebas
Gastly
Geodude
Goldeen
Grimer
Growlithe
Gulpin
Hooothoot
Hoppip
Horsea
Houndour
Igglybuff
Kabuto
Koffing
Krabby
Larvitar
Ledyba
Lileep
Lotad
Machop
Magikarp
Magnemite
Makuhita
Mankey
Mareep
Meditite
Meowth
Mudkip
Natu
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Nincada
Numel
Oddish
Omanyte
Onix
Paras
Phanpy
Pichu
Pidgey
Pineco
Poliwag
Ponyta
Poochyena
Porygon
Psyduck
Ralts
Rattata
Remomraid
Rhyhorn
Sandshrew
Seedot
Seel
Sentret
Shellder
Shroomish
Shuppet
Skitty
Slakoth
Slowpoke
Slugma
Smoochum
Snorunt
Snubull
Spearow
Spheal
Spinarak
Spoink
Squirtle
Staryu
Sunkern
Surskit
Swablu
Swinub
Tailow
Teddiursa
Tentacool
Togepi
Torchic
Totodile
Treecko
Tyrogue
Venonat
Voltorb
Vulpix
Wailmer
Weedle
Whismur
Wingull
Wooper
Wurmple
Zigzagoon
Zubat

With all of these new changes, it's a brand new tier for Gen3. So, good luck and have fun to everyone as they pioneer this updated format!

 

[Slowbroth]

Furret, Machoke and Diglett are now gone. Hope everyone is stoked for that lol

But on a serious note, with the changes to the new tier (and sadly no new additions), all the resources have been modified to accurately reflect it. The sample teams have been moved to an outdated state, the speed tiers have been condensed, the tour banlist has been added to, the all mons list has been corrected, etc. The VR, however, has been changed a good amount; it is a sort of speculation as to what the meta might look like. This is in no way an accurate reflection of the meta currently, and I simply moved some mons around to fill in the voids, to what I think would be a decent approximation, that would have been left because of the dramatic amount of losses. As the meta progresses and we figure things out, we can correct it as we go. The analyses are now obviously outdated, so that will be corrected in the near future; if you'd like to help with that, let me know.

I hope everyone is excited for the new update and have fun playing the new tier. I'd like to thank Akir and the ADV NU people for getting the accurate representation of the ADV PU meta.

 

[Aaronboyer]

Slowbroth is right. There have been a dramatic amount of losses for ADV PU in the last couple of days. Alot of the ADV PU community has been discouraged because 95% of our teams, posts, nominations, etc. are now outdated. However, if you haven't tried out ADV PU yet, I think now is as good a time as ever to get started. There is still so much to discover!

People need to be abusing this as much as possible, because I do not see Dragonair staying in the tier for too long. With a resistance to the common Water, Fire, Grass, and Electric-Type, Dragonair always gets a turn to set up at least 1 Dragon Dance per game. While at +1, Dragonair outspeeds the entire unboosted meta, while with its fantastic Normal/Ground/Steel coverage its able to 2HKO almost the whole tier. With Tropius, Diglett, and Graveler gone, teams are not as worried about stacking an Ice weakness, and therefore makes Dragonair slappable onto any team style, whether it be Offense, Defense, or even Stall. Dragonair beats most if not all of the tier's other top threats including Minun, Shuckle, Aipom, Chinchou, Houndour, Quilava, Combusken, Doduo, and more. Dragonair has that Drifblim vibe coming from it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it receives a suspect test very soon. (I'd like to move Dragonair to the top of S Rank)

This thing has went from Unranked to C- to C to C+ to A- to A+ and its no surprise why. Shuckle is the ultimate GSI to Normal-Types such as Aipom and Doduo and is a great check to other Pokemon like Quilava, Beedrill, Delibird, and more. Shuckle has gotten even better after the recent "Tier Shift" due to the loss of Machoke and a plethora of Water-Types. The tier still has a few checks to Shuckle such as Iron Tail Dragonair, Offensive Clamperl, and Toxic-Stalling. However, if for some reason Dragonair goes, Shuckle may prove to have too few of checks and may restrict team-building. For now though, Shuckle could be a great defensive Pokemon that adds many important resistances to your ADV PU team! (I'd like to move Shuckle in between Sunflora and Aipom still within A+)

Everyone knows I like building weather teams, as shown by my Empire of the Sun team found here. While trying to find a Physically-Biased Chlorophyll abuser that could replace Tropius, I came across this beauty. Most people automatically assume that if its a Chlorophyll user, it must be a Special-Attacker, which is not the case for Weepinbell with its base 90 Attack stat, and access to Swords Dance and STAB Sludge Bomb. Weepinbell also sports enough speed without being forced to run Jolly to outspeed +1 Dragonair under sun. Also, Weepinbell can also break through Shuckle because of SD and its immunity to Toxic. Additionally, Weepinbell can choose between support options in Sunny Day and Sleep Powder or Offensive coverage in Return or HP Rock. Overall, I believe it has great enough merits to be a replacement for Tropius in Sun. (I'd like it moved below Wailmer at the bottom of B- or above Bayleef at the top of C+)

There is alot more discussion to be had on the new ADV PU meta, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the "Tier Shift" and what other Pokemon you've been using with success.

 

[ThriceElite]

Just a suggestion: Perhaps you guys should've posted in this topic that you had been considering such a drastic tier shift. From the viewpoint of someone who isn't part of the PU Discord community (or wherever the heck you people are discussing this), this Gen3PU shift seemed to come out of nowhere. Posting that you were considering such a move in this topic probably would've been a good idea, just saying.

Alot of the ADV PU community has been discouraged because 95% of our teams, posts, nominations, etc. are now outdated.

Which is why you should've tipped them off earlier by posting about the potential shift here eariler. Prior communication is important.

I could've possibly advised rises/drops from NU to ADV PU etc, if I felt like it. Maybe.

 

[Slowbroth]

to anyone who is dissapointed, disheartened or discouraged by the recent update:

I understand your frustration and apologize if this change made you upset. Of course it's annoying to be invested in a tier and then suddenly have it all change in a day; all the hard work people have put in to find creative innovations and build fun teams have seemingly been thrown out the window, so yes, it is very unfortunate. So, I just wanted to take the time now to be transparent, to make sure things are cleared up and to make sure we're on the same page so we can move forward with the new stage of our ADV PU metagame.

1) Part of the reason many people were not notified or were not told earlier about this tier shift when the ADV PU group were discussing internally about it was because there really was no way to tell people without essentially spoiling what it would be and leaving people confused (and also probably upset). If, a couple weeks back, we said something like, "the tier's going to change quite a bit and some mons are going to leave the tier, but we can't tell you what they are", it really wouldn't have accomplished anything, especially with no further details; you wouldn't have known which mons were leaving, which mons were coming down (if at all), or how the tier would really change at all. I hope that's a clear and coherent reasoning.

2) I also wanted to stress and reiterate the point that even if you liked the previous meta, it was unofficial and therefore would not be recognized as a proper format to play ADV PU in. (It's like if you liked playing soccer but preferred to use a basketball instead of a soccer ball; sure you're still playing "soccer", but it's not the proper way to do it even if you like it for some reason. Weird analagy but I think it works) Our previous meta was based off usage stats from a Gen 3 NU ladder, which is not how tiering in ADV worked (but rather by viability from the tier above), and also probably did not have usage stats that accurately reflected the ADV NU meta.

3) There are still plenty of Pokemon that have not been explored as of now, whether it's due to lack of usage/recognition in the previous meta or because people haven't thought about yet. Only this past week did mons like Sealeo start to pick up traction as a good bulky water in the tier. Now's the chance if you haven't gotten into the meta to give it a fresh chance, to find cool niches, to see what the new top tier NFE will be, etc. This new stage has just begun, so things aren't set into place yet. The tier needs the community's help to play it, find out what's good and what's not, and to set it back on track like the previous meta had been. So I hope you give the tier another chance, get accustomed to the changes, and I'm sure everything will work itself out. (of course, I'm not forcing you to come back; if you really don't prefer to play the tier, then don't do something you don't enjoy)


Now with actual ADV PU metagame stuff!

The viability rankings, as of right now, are still pretty flexible and fluid. Top tier and mid tier threats haven't really been established but I reordered the mons in the ranks to what i think is correct. I wanted to highlight some notable mons / changes

A+

Beedrill in the previous meta had pretty overshadowed due to residing in a middling speed tier of 75, being outsped by Furret and Charmeleon, meaning that it was always easily forced out. Also, Duskull and Koffing were quite common because of Furret and Machoke, so naturally they walled Beedrill. Since those two are now gone, Duskull and Koffing see less usage, and since lots of speedy things have left the tier, this thing now has some pretty good power, speed and even bulk for the current metagame. It's incredibly consistent, easy to set up Swords Dance with, has a great STAB Sludge Bomb, and is a fantastic switch into Sunflora that dont carry hp fire. This also beats Shuckle 1v1, even if it resists Sludge Bomb, it can't touch you with Toxic and Wrap cancels out with Leftovers, and you can eventually wear it down with Sludge Bomb poison. Beedrill can also run various sets like CB, SD / Agility pass or Salac variants to outspeed things. Overall, this mon really doesn't dissapoint.

A

Combusken has really shined in the update; there isn't much that resists Fire + Fighting and with Swords Dance, Combusken can easily sweep a team or punch holes. Endure Salac + Reversal is incredibly lethal for sweeping late game, while SD 3 Atks can break midgame. All out attacking sets are decent too .. basically busken has a lot of sets it can run and is now the new best fighting type in the tier.

B+

We lost Graveler, but this has proved to be a decent replacement actually; it still has decent physical attack as well as physical bulk, it even has Swords Dance, unlike Graveler, and it has Megahorn to nail grasses on the switchin. choice band sets are also pretty good. its speed is somewhat of a problem, but it's not a deal breaker since Graveler was really slow too

- entire C ranks changed around -

so what i decided to do was put a lot of the niche NFEs in C rank, the ones that did something good in the meta and wasnt complete garbage like Spinda. If one of these NFEs start to become more prominent, then they can move on up obviously but for now they will stay in C. (you can see some mons like quilava, gastly and tentacool have a better niche in the meta and are ranked higher)


There's been some discussion on Dragonair as possibly too overbearing for the tier to handle and some have called for suspects or a possible quickban; if you have any arguements or counterarguments, now's the time to post.


Anyways, with this VR refresh / clean up, I hope the meta can progress and keep going strong. Thanks for bearing with me on this long post.

 

[ThriceElite]

I just wanted to post here to express my disappointment in how this ADV PU tier shift was handled. I had previously investigated this place due to a friend's recommendation of DPP PU, but considering the fact that such a large tier shift was done without transparency or forewarning (which is a huge red flag), I don't think I'll be playing DPP PU. I don't trust the people running this thing to be honest and transparent with the community.

to anyone who is dissapointed, disheartened or discouraged by the recent update:

I understand your frustration and apologize if this change made you upset. Of course it's annoying to be invested in a tier and then suddenly have it all change in a day; all the hard work people have put in to find creative innovations and build fun teams have seemingly been thrown out the window, so yes, it is very unfortunate. So, I just wanted to take the time now to be transparent, to make sure things are cleared up and to make sure we're on the same page so we can move forward with the new stage of our ADV PU metagame.

Uh no, you're not being transparent. It seems to me like you're just trying to push a huge change on a community without informing them first, and then making excuses to try and wave off any criticism.

1) Part of the reason many people were not notified or were not told earlier about this tier shift when the ADV PU group were discussing internally about it was because there really was no way to tell people without essentially spoiling what it would be

Then "spoil" it. Just flat-out tell them that you were considering shifting ADV PU. This isn't a manga.

and leaving people confused (and also probably upset).

Being honest generally makes people less confused. You could've made people less upset by being honest at the start.

If, a couple weeks back, we said something like, "the tier's going to change quite a bit and some mons are going to leave the tier, but we can't tell you what they are", it really wouldn't have accomplished anything, especially with no further details; you wouldn't have known which mons were leaving, which mons were coming down (if at all), or how the tier would really change at all. I hope that's a clear and coherent reasoning.

Just tell them. Everything. No "we can't tell you" bullshit. Tell them everything. You are just making excuses. Be transparent.

2) I also wanted to stress and reiterate the point that even if you liked the previous meta, it was unofficial and therefore would not be recognized as a proper format to play ADV PU in. (It's like if you liked playing soccer but preferred to use a basketball instead of a soccer ball; sure you're still playing "soccer", but it's not the proper way to do it even if you like it for some reason. Weird analagy but I think it works) Our previous meta was based off usage stats from a Gen 3 NU ladder, which is not how tiering in ADV worked (but rather by viability from the tier above), and also probably did not have usage stats that accurately reflected the ADV NU meta.

Ah yes, the "official" excuse. Why is this "official"? Because you say it is? Because some "council" which can't be assed to be honest and transparent with the community says it is? Why the hell should I listen to some "organization" which can't even be honest with me?

In the end, the player decides what is "official". If I wanted to play soccer with a basketball, I can damn well call it official; I could go on and on about how stupid and arbitrary other people try to assign importance on neutral people's opinions with stupid fucking buzzwords like "official" but I'll leave it at that.

It's only "official" if the player says it is.

3) There are still plenty of Pokemon that have not been explored as of now, whether it's due to lack of usage/recognition in the previous meta or because people haven't thought about yet. Only this past week did mons like Sealeo start to pick up traction as a good bulky water in the tier. Now's the chance if you haven't gotten into the meta to give it a fresh chance, to find cool niches, to see what the new top tier NFE will be, etc. This new stage has just begun, so things aren't set into place yet. The tier needs the community's help to play it, find out what's good and what's not, and to set it back on track like the previous meta had been. So I hope you give the tier another chance, get accustomed to the changes, and I'm sure everything will work itself out.

The "blank meta slate" argument never sat well with me, especially considering how unpredictable and sudden this shift was. Why should I invest my time in something that some ill-advised "council" casually wrecks without being honest and transparent? Why should I even trust any of you?

(of course, I'm not forcing you to come back; if you really don't prefer to play the tier, then don't do something you don't enjoy)

That, I can agree on.

If any of you other dissenters wish to make arguments of their own here, feel free to do so. I don't have time to argue in this topic all day.

 

[Akir]

I just wanted to post here to express my disappointment in how this ADV PU tier shift was handled. I had previously investigated this place due to a friend's recommendation of DPP PU, but considering the fact that such a large tier shift was done without transparency or forewarning (which is a huge red flag), I don't think I'll be playing DPP PU. I don't trust the people running this thing to be honest and transparent with the community.



Uh no, you're not being transparent. It seems to me like you're just trying to push a huge change on a community without informing them first, and then making excuses to try and wave off any criticism.


Then "spoil" it. Just flat-out tell them that you were considering shifting ADV PU. This isn't a manga.


Being honest generally makes people less confused. You could've made people less upset by being honest at the start.



Just tell them. Everything. No "we can't tell you" bullshit. Tell them everything. You are just making excuses. Be transparent.



Ah yes, the "official" excuse. Why is this "official"? Because you say it is? Because some "council" which can't be assed to be honest and transparent with the community says it is? Why the hell should I listen to some "organization" which can't even be honest with me?

In the end, the player decides what is "official". If I wanted to play soccer with a basketball, I can damn well call it official; I could go on and on about how stupid and arbitrary other people try to assign importance on neutral people's opinions with stupid fucking buzzwords like "official" but I'll leave it at that.

It's only "official" if the player says it is.


The "blank meta slate" argument never sat well with me, especially considering how unpredictable and sudden this shift was. Why should I invest my time in something that some ill-advised "council" casually wrecks without being honest and transparent? Why should I even trust any of you?


That, I can agree on.

If any of you other dissenters wish to make arguments of their own here, feel free to do so. I don't have time to argue in this topic all day.

The revised list was finalized on Wednesday. I made the post on Thursday of the same week.

We didn't want to say anything concrete because there still wasn't anything concrete to offer. The reason why it wasn't posted same day was because I did not have the time to post that day. I'm not sure how much more transparent you can get than telling the community at the first opportunity, and telling them that the tier was going to change very soon (because that's all that we could really say). As far as we knew, maybe the tier would get more mons instead of less. That was the hope going in. In fact, the tier list is still being discussed, so the tier might have some more mons dropping hopefully soon.

This is Smogon, and the tier was pushed for to become a Smogon tier as well. It makes sense for the tier to follow Smogon format then. Even though I agree that the system for creating ADV tiers is not great, it is what was used in the past so Gen3 PU should follow suit.

The phrase "official" is only added to show that other portions of Smogon are giving the tier support. Obviously none of this is truly official, but aligning the tier with other Gen3 tiers in Smogon gives the tier more leverage in Smogon, which is the community we both are currently posting in.

So the community was told at the first opportunity that there was solid information to give, and was told that there was something happening without giving them anything solid to avoid giving incorrect information well beforehand, up to the same day we received information that there was such an error.

Besides, nothing is stopping you from playing the old ADV PU. The new ADV isn't even that bad either.

Also, no excuses. This was a big change and I knew that people would be upset. I have already apologized to people for it as well, but the main problem that occurred was that the error was found so late into the life of the metagame. Clearly, more research should have been done, but Gen3 was pushed out of the door way too quickly.

 

[soulgazer]

what are the best six pokemon in adv pu?