Prevailing attitudes regarding OU as being the "Best"

elchupo said:
Gallade and Porygon-Z are BL, which is a lot different than OU, Electivire is considered by many a "bad" OU, and will most likely drop, and Rhyperior is firmly UU.

Furthermore, Tangrowth, Lickilicky, Magmortar, Roserade, Ambipom, Yanmega, Mismagius and Honchkrow are all BL or lower. My point is, evolution does not an OU Pokemon make.
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Electivire won't drop out of OU so long as noobs keep pairing it with Gyarados. It's completely underwhelming even with the Motor Drive boost; I don't know why people use it so much.

Proboscidea said:
Remember that Bounce can still hit Ghost-types.

I found the video so here you go!

@above: I agree completely.
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That video doesn't prove anything. Any Pokemon with +6 Attack, +2 Speed, 1 hp and Flail can do that. There are so many things wrong with that video I don't even know where to begin.

- Could've been stopped by priority, weather, any ghost, entry hazards, etc.
- Why would anyone leave a sleeping Pokemon in against a Smeargle in the first place?
 
This makes an interesting point... why do we have to have a seperate OU and a BL category? Why not put all things banned from UU into OU, rather than determine by popularity?
 
Relictivity said:
This makes an interesting point... why do we have to have a seperate OU and a BL category? Why not put all things banned from UU into OU, rather than determine by popularity?
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The only way to make this proposal consistent is to make all the tiers based on some arbitrary factor other than popularity and rename them "Tier 0", "Tier 1", "Tier 2", etc. The problem is, there is no other arbitrary factor that could be used.
 
Relictivity said:
This makes an interesting point... why do we have to have a seperate OU and a BL category? Why not put all things banned from UU into OU, rather than determine by popularity?
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There is no "in OU". There are no "tiers". All we have are artificial cut offs so that NU and UU can exist and be competitive. Anything goes in OU, they aren't "the best" just the most popular. BL is somewhat of a limbo where UU banned Pokemon go, that's all it is (I think some testing goes on there though, like Ubers and OU).

However, in competition, if you want to be the best and win, then you use whatever will help you do that. OU just represents what the masses think will help them win the most and it's usually right on par when we have this many people playing. So yes, OU's are the best outside of Uber, it doesn't mean anything other than a banning from UU and NU (and I guess BL and Little Cup?)
 
The tier names are poor in my opinion. "OverUsed" and "UnderUsed" are judgemental, they imply that the amount of usage is wrong.

We could address this while preserving the acronyms by redefining them as "Often Used" and "Uncommonly Used" (NU stays "Never Used" even though that's an exxageration.) But I doubt anyone (including myself) considers this a high priority, and inertia will probably weigh against it.

Or we could say they don't officially stand for anything, like DVD.
 
DVD=Digital Versatile Disk

The acronyms have been the way they are for years so I doubt they will be changed to accommodate the very small population who actually care. If changing "over" to "often" and "under" to "uncommonly" will make pokemon more enjoyable for them because they don't feel compelled to use UU pokemon in OU, then they have other underlying issues to deal with. The tiers are great how they function now. The most accurate way to gauge a pokemon's usefulness is by usage.

That doesn't mean that the less usage a pokemon has the less it is useful. It just means that it is useful less often. Ludicolo is a decently powerful pokemon in the rain but otherwise it is not very threatening. Therefore it will mostly be used on rain dance teams. With rain dance teams being rather uncommon, Ludicolo becomes uncommon. Scizor on the other hand has had #1 usage slot for a long time running. This is because Scizor fits on to many teams. He functions as a powerful priority user, a great scout and a decent pursuit user all on the same set combined with decent bulk and great typing to switch in often. The fact that he excels at many important roles on one set makes him a solid choice for many teams instead of just one uncommon theme.
 
There is a bit of a line. There are more cookie cutter OU teams in OU than standard. I see more people run UU/NU/BL Pokemon in standard, while OU rarely strays from Skarm, Pert, Aero, Scizor, Mence, etc.

There are some Pokemon in OU I'm surprised aren't BL. Mamo, Empoleon, especially Kingdra (I have never seen him outside of Rain, or even on a team that doesn't have less than 3 NU/UU Pokemon) etc. are all rare on OU teams (Although, Mamo is on all Hail teams). They are perfectly usable/good, but nobody bothers to stray out to them.

Electivire won't drop out of OU so long as noobs keep pairing it with Gyarados. It's completely underwhelming even with the Motor Drive boost; I don't know why people use it so much.
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I have used it before, and people still called me a noob as I swept through their teams. Many threats can't outrun after a Motor Drive Boost. I'll admit, his only usably powered moves leave a desire for more power; but T-Bolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Punch usually hit a lot of the Pokemon on the popular cookie cutter OU teams hard. W/o SR, many KOs are lost, though, but not usually on most common Pokemon.
 
Airfoil said:
There is a bit of a line. There are more cookie cutter OU teams in OU than standard. I see more people run UU/NU/BL Pokemon in standard, while OU rarely strays from Skarm, Pert, Aero, Scizor, Mence, etc.

There are some Pokemon in OU I'm surprised aren't BL. Mamo, Empoleon, especially Kingdra (I have never seen him outside of Rain, or even on a team that doesn't have less than 3 NU/UU Pokemon) etc. are all rare on OU teams (Although, Mamo is on all Hail teams). They are perfectly usable/good, but nobody bothers to stray out to them.

I have used it before, and people still called me a noob as I swept through their teams. Many threats can't outrun after a Motor Drive Boost. I'll admit, his only usably powered moves leave a desire for more power; but T-Bolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Punch usually hit a lot of the Pokemon on the popular cookie cutter OU teams hard. W/o SR, many KOs are lost, though.
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And Hidden Power Grass E-Vire is becoming more and more popular now due to the use of Swampert.
Choice Scarf E-Vire (although it may be gimmick-y) is one heck of a revenge killer with Thunderpunch to outrun a +1DD Gyarados with any nature, Ice Punch to outspeed some DD's Mences, and MixMences, Low Kick/Cross Chop for +1DD TTar. I don't see why people don't use it more often...
 
Airfoil said:
There is a bit of a line. There are more cookie cutter OU teams in OU than standard. I see more people run UU/NU/BL Pokemon in standard, while OU rarely strays from Skarm, Pert, Aero, Scizor, Mence, etc.
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Sorry, but where are you playing "OU" and where are you playing "standard"? They're the same ladder on the Smogon Shoddy server.

In terms of definition, 'standard' and 'OU' mean different things. But in practice, the 'standard metagame' is the 'OU metagame'.
 
In that case, what you are experiencing is the difference between the WiFi and Shoddy metagames. To call one 'OU' and the other 'standard' is misleading.
 
familyguyman said:
There is no "in OU". There are no "tiers". All we have are artificial cut offs so that NU and UU can exist and be competitive. Anything goes in OU, they aren't "the best" just the most popular. BL is somewhat of a limbo where UU banned Pokemon go, that's all it is (I think some testing goes on there though, like Ubers and OU).

However, in competition, if you want to be the best and win, then you use whatever will help you do that. OU just represents what the masses think will help them win the most and it's usually right on par when we have this many people playing. So yes, OU's are the best outside of Uber, it doesn't mean anything other than a banning from UU and NU (and I guess BL and Little Cup?)
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Yah, but I mean why not stick the stuff in BL into OU, why bother to make the separation, when all BL is is stuff that isn't in UU, but isn't used as much in OU. I do realize it then becomes somewhat arbitrary, but isn't our metagame already arbitrary to an extent?
 
It's something I think about sometimes. Functionally, an OU Pokemon can only be used in OU and Ubers. Functionally, a BL Pokemon can only be used in OU and Ubers. If you look at the tier list, there are 60 Pokemon only usable in OU the metagame and above, not 49. As is, the distinction between OU and BL is absurd. However, so is calling Porygon-Z overused. So which is more absurd?
 
It's a definitions thing. The definition of OU is very clear - it's a Pokemon that meets a certain usage threshold in standard play. (I can't remember what the actual threshold is). A Pokemon that does not meet that threshold is not OU.

UU play bans all Pokemon that are Uber or OU. It was then decided to ban some extra Pokemon for balance purposes. These Pokemon are thus not UU, but they're not OU either. Hence the creation of BL.

The UU tier, which is distinct in definition to UU play, is then the Pokemon that meet the usage threshold in UU play.

(Note that I here use the phrase "*U play" to mean what many call "the *U metagame". The latter usage doesn't really match the dictionary definition of metagame - 'metagame' means more than just a ruleset.)
 
I could be wrong but I believe that the threshold is 3.6%. That is only based on looking at the statistics for OU (between OU and UU) and UU (between UU and NU).
 
I personally hate using cookie cutter teams/sets that has been used so much by other people just because their "better". Maybe it's just me, but it's that reason why I tend to avoid them and go for the underappreciated Pokemon or use gimmicky sets. It also gives off a challenge to find ones in NU with potential to be used in OU/UU, and a sense of achievement when it works.
 
I think UU ,and to a greater extent NU, pokemon are divided into two unmarked catagories: those viable with team support and those that won't work (refering to the OU tier). I have a friend who based a team around giving Linoone support for a late game sweep, and it worked like a charm in OU. I used specs Executor on my Sunny Day team and it worked alright in OU. On the same note, Kabutops easily rises into OU on Rain Dance teams. A lot of pokemon in lower tiers have paragraphs on their OU useage on their page. OU is made out of the best pokemon if you count them by themselves though. That's my opinion anyways.
 
I, for one, play NU, and I've found that I like it more than UU and even OU. I've often wondered about this, because the conditions are less than ideal. We have a small playerbase, a quiet ladder, and a relatively unknown forum, and yet I find NU battles wholly enjoyable, as opposed to some OU and UU battles.
I believe that I enjoy NU because I fancy a challenge. You're right, all the best pokemon are in OU. Need(ed) a hole puncher? specs latias. needed a lategame sweeper? DDmence. Needed a special wall? Blissey. I enjoy a game with pokemon that you have to model to your specifictations. Down in, NU, nobody's perfect, and so many things are viable. Skunktank is possibly the most used pokemon in the whole tier. NP Ninetails is the most potent special sweeper, bar espeon. Shiftry is usable outside of Sunny Day. The NU metagame allows for much of NU's massive pokemon base to become viable. Sneasel and Murkrow battle with skunktank for pursuit slots, while special sweepers have to have some way to deal with Mantine, Walrein, Grumpig, Lickilicky, and even Munchlax. So many different pokemon can fill the same role with about the same sucess that any and all of them are seen on teams, leading to a more diverse and interesting metagame. Flareon can't just be modded to take Ninetail's attacks, it has to take magmortar's too, and Typhlosion. NU simply has so many more options than any other tier that you never know what you'll find, you might even run into a delibird!(not joking.)
...so, thats my schpeel on why the lower tiers are more interesting to play than OU. I believe I once saw in someone's sig, "I play UU because I believe there is more to pokemon than red bugs, blue dragons, and pink blobs, and I want to find it!" and I think that sums up my viewpoint fairly well.
If my rambling somehow managed to draw you in, then by all means check out the link in my sig for our unobtrusive little forum.
Yes, this is indeed an incredibly shameless plug.
 
Obsessed said:
Why do you think they are overused? Because they suck? The current overused Pokemon are the best Pokemon (at least for this specific metagame).

Pokemon like Lubdisk could essentially become OU if used enough times. However, that won't happen because people using Luvdisk would not win against equally skilled opponents using something better. So yeah, overused Pokemon are essentially the best Pokemon.
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Lol, I could say many poke's suck, but actually, quite a few of them have some strategic use.

Take for example, Octillery. Most people say it suck. I say not. I told my friend to run it on his Ninjask team.

That Octillery has made his team win about 9/10 times, simply because Skarmories think "Ooooh, me get free Whirlwind" and get 2HKOd after a SD pass from 'Jask, and Scizors think "Oooh, me get free Swords Dance" and get 1HKOd from a flamethrower. Swamperts also die, thanks to Seed Bomb, and Gunk Shot KOs those nasty Salamences.

The result? A fast deadly Octillery that people utterly underestimate, and as of such, die to. From what my friend Sassafrass tells me, it forced about 50% of the people he versed to run Priority leads, 'specially Machamp, just to deal with his Ninjask. So then we switched teams to Rain Dance (running Omnastar and Kabutops, but no Kingdra, he's not powerful enough without a DD), and a Sunny Day team (running Shiftry and Exeggutor).

Those are all pokemon people overlook, simply for being UU, but in fact, they are quite useful in OU. And they are beating people quite often. I'm hoping once school is out, to develop maybe another 3 types of team along with the 2 Ninjask teams, 1 stall team, 1 Sunny Day Team, 1 Rain Dance team, and 1 Trick Room team to start botching up people's metagame... and hopefully it will make a change.

EDIT: Oh, and what's worse is that sometimes in OU, a team get's 6HKOd to no damage, by a +4 Att. Ninjask.
 
The OU tier is not the best tier.

The Pokemon in the OU tier are the best/most useful Pokemon. Almost every UU/NU is outclassed by an OU Pokemon.
 
Again, reiforcing a fact that a tier cannot be "best" when the so clled "best" tier is determined by pokemon usage.
 
WarriorPrince said:
The OU tier is not the best tier.

The Pokemon in the OU tier are the best/most useful Pokemon. Almost every UU/NU is outclassed by an OU Pokemon.
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Bull. Who outclasses Clefable? Ambipom? Dugtrio? Lanturn? etc etc.

For Pokemon A to completely outclass Pokemon B, A must have higher stats than B, a competitive movepool that includes everything B learns, and the same ability as B unless B has only a useless ability.
 
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