PP STALL (Hitting a brick wall)

HXCMLG Pogeman Trainer

Alright well, there's no like forum on smogon that goes "Hey I'm trying to build this team, can somebody help me out so I can get some outside advice" instead I have to post it straight to a rate my team. Whatever.

Anyways I got tired of playing balanced teams forever and before I stopped playing like five months ago I built a pretty awesome pp stall team which was a roserade spiritomb dusknoir zapdos blissey heatran.

Yesterday I rebuilt that team and it currently looks like this, but it's just not right yet.

Breloom (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Effect Spore
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Seed Bomb
- Spore
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

I wanted to use a vespiquen. So I required two things 1. a sleep lead to prevent rocks and 2. a spinner to keep rocks off. This is the step one of the plan and this pokemon near always does his job. I don't know why it's not a more popular lead to be honest.

However a problem with this on the team is typically I would switch in a secondary lead who would act as a normal lead in another scenario. This team doesn't -really- have one of those and that's not good.

Vespiquen (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Toxic
- Roost
- Defend Order
- Substitute

This. Thing. Is. Ungodly. +6 def +6 sdef with substitutes and heals? You get two defend orders up and the things already pretty ridiculous stable. One of the beautiful things about it is that rock moves have shitty accuracy so you can even risk staying in sometimes.

I pretty much want to build the team with this as it's by far the most effective pp staller outside of the whole stealth rock issue.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Roar/Toxic
- Roost
- Substitute

Subroostdos.......very very effective pp staller. I can't decide on roar or toxic. Toxic has saved my life a thousand times but this team has a problem with curse users.

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 255 HP / 255 Def
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Substitute

Blissey doesn't even need pressure to stall. 32 pp seismic toss? Wish protect support for my extremely bulky team? Substitutes to be used on jolteons for when your opponent switches to a infernape? Can this pokemon be much more annoying? I seriously pp stalled a curselax to death with this thing.

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 255 HP / 255 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock

I hate this thing. Another moment I wish my breloom was a roserade so I can do two birds with one stone but it wouldn't solve my rapid spin problem. I just can't seem to build a team with a rapid spinner and not have it the biggest weak link on the entire server.

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Protect
- Torment
- Substitute
- Lava Plume

The bread and butter of this team. All the toxic spike and pp stall support goes together to really support a tormentran. It's extremely easy to get him set up and put him the driving knife between your opponent breaking your defenses and not. I've been in love with this set since it's conception.


Now to talk about the team on a whole.

Resistances are pretty fine. Zapdos/Vespiquen cover Heatran ground weak, Vespiquen/zapdos cover heatran and blisseys fighting weak, heatran covers any stone edges, blisseys fat as hell. It's not the best resistances spread across the team but there's a bit of theory going on in my head.

Would it be better to have most of the weaknesses coincide with the tormenter of the team? There are a few potential tormenters

Drapion
Skarmory
Gliscor

If they share weaknesses I can attempt to snipe out an attack from a whole team much easier and once that is done my game is made all the more easier. Yet at the same time, a choice scarfed user with such an attack would wreck me.

Opinions?

One last thing for any potential helpers- A quick list of potential pp stallers


Aerodactyl (Really fast, looks good on paper)
Dusknoir (I don't love how he's just barely not bulky enough ever)
Suicune (crocune super originally was on team, solid but he acts more as a sweeper than a staller)
Spiritomb (Even with 6 calm minds max hp max def.......this pokemon is still frail somehow?)
Vespiquen (Happyface)
Zapdos (heart)
Rotom (Rest/talk/spite/---- is viable)
Tyranitar (Same)
Umbreon (Wish protect spite.....viable)

They're interesting ideas to have in a list.




Above all else I want this team to be competitive and bottom line I want it to be about surviving as long as I can. That's the basis of every stall team and that's what I've been about. I'll be working on it and updating as i make any breakthroughs but I just wanted this out here so I can maybe get some extra hands.

Also, if this is an eyesore if someone could link me to a good place for the sprites and I'll gladly make this a prettier page.
 
Alright, let's see here. Since you're worried about Stealth Rock, I'd try a Taunt lead. I don't think Breloom's a good lead, but maybe that's just me. Especially Scarf versions. Aerodactyl wouldn't be a bad idea, as he can Taunt and get his own rocks down. Azelf is also an excellent choice, and his lack of Pressure doesn't really matter compared to Aero, as they're both frail. Also, Forretress has no business with all three entry hazards. Take off Stealth Rock and give him Payback, Earthquake, Gyro Ball, or something else. Also, Zapdos and Vespiquen ideally have no use for Toxic with your Toxic Spikes already on the field. Have you considered Skarmory over Zapdos? It's a reliable spiker, and finishes the SkarmBliss combo. And as much as I love ForreTran, it also gets rid of Forretress's usefulness on this team. SkarmBliss is destroyed by MixApe, so you could also use Tentacruel for your Spinner/Toxic Spiker. Overall my suggestions would amount to:
Aerodactyl/Azelf (Lead: prevents rocks, sets rock, Azelf can pass screens as a bonus.
Skarmory (Spiker: sets up Spikes, can Phaze with Whirlwind and rack up damage, physical wall)
Blissey (special wall, your set is fine, although I feel inclined to say I wouldn't use Substitute)
Tentacruel (Toxic Spikers, Rapid Spinner, MixApe check, decent special wall)
Vespiquen (switch Toxic for something else)
Heatran (good as is, I love TormenTran)
As another note, Dusknoir is actually useful here not only for PP stalling with Pressure, but also not that it's a spin blocker, which your team is going to love when *insert Rapid Spinner* comes to blow away all your hazards with one attack. Love the team, good luck. :)
 
Oh right I forgot to put reasoning behind the whole toxic.

Rotom forms/zapdos/usedtobemence/gyarados and pokemon similar to that usually break me otherwise. Hence having a couple pokes with the move toxic despite having toxic spikes. That was my whole gameplan.

Vespiquens movepool isn't really that good by the way haha. Like it gets uturn but it's a slow poke and I don't want to run low on pp with max defenses and be forced to uturn. There's confuse ray but I want the opponent to USE the pp not hit themselves. The only moves that can conceivably coincide with this strategy is.....string shot. That's just disgusting. Annoying, but disgusting.

Meh I just regard forry as useless as a fighting mon so I gave up on any idea of giving it an attack. I'd give it explode but I want it to live so I can switch it in and kill it another day. Second least favorite steel type I thinks.

Anyways I'll definitely give your team a go for a couple rounds and what not, as will I try any other suggested teams.

Thanks by the way for being positive. :D
 
Just to clarify... "PP stall" isn't a strategy like "offensive team" or "baton pass chain". It's more like the word "counter" or "check". No one builds a team with the intent on PP stalling the majority of opponents. It's just something that stall does to specific shitty Pokemon.
 
No problem. Also, play around with combinations and other ideas until you find the one perfect for you. But more to the point, hitting yourself in confusion DOES waste PP, IIRC.
Edit: @Chris is me. That's an understandable point, but it's original, and it seems to work for him, so might as well give him some help.
 
@Chris- I know this. Nobody built a team with this intent until five months ago when I did. ;-)

Seriously tho' it's a team built on putting on pressure on what pokes I can't toxicstall out. A buffed vespiquen will typically be able to pp stall out anything that doesn't die to poison. It's a little gimicky but definitely is fun. :D

@Percussionist- I remember very distinctly in my fun games on the DS my pp not going down when I hit myself. I could be wrong.
 
Well, I can't find anything about it online, and it would be a pain to emulate in-game, so I'm just going to assume you're right. Either way, you should just stick with Toxic for the reasons you mentioned.
 
PP is not reduced when a Pokemon hits itself in its confusion, just to clarify. It has happened to me enough times to memorize all aspects of confusion. @~@

Anyway, I second the use of a Ghost-Type. I actually use a set like this one time to decent effect:

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Pressure
~ Will-O-Wisp
~ Spite
~ Rest
~ Sleep Talk

Adjust EVs/Nature according to what you need. Will-O-Wisp could probably be something else for your team if you want to rely on Toxic, but the cut in power should not be ignored when using bulky pokemon.
 
HXCMLG Pogeman Trainer said:
@Chris- I know this. Nobody built a team with this intent until five months ago when I did. ;-)
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First, that's not true. One of the many problems with trying to be creative in Pokemon is that if you've never heard of a HUGE idea (not like a slight moveset variant), it's likely because people have tried it and it sucks, a lot. Forcing innovation is probably the worst possible way to approach Pokemon. I mean, seriously, your team has a Vespiquen on it. Even if pure defense boosters weren't a terrible idea, there's so many better Pokemon like Clefable and Jirachi off the top of my head for that. Lock too hard onto an idea and you'll lose any chance of making a successful team.

If your wondering why your team is "just not right yet", that's why.
 
Chris is me said:
First, that's not true. One of the many problems with trying to be creative in Pokemon is that if you've never heard of a HUGE idea (not like a slight moveset variant), it's likely because people have tried it and it sucks, a lot. Forcing innovation is probably the worst possible way to approach Pokemon. I mean, seriously, your team has a Vespiquen on it. Even if pure defense boosters weren't a terrible idea, there's so many better Pokemon like Clefable and Jirachi off the top of my head for that. Lock too hard onto an idea and you'll lose any chance of making a successful team.

If your wondering why your team is "just not right yet", that's why.
Click to expand...

You didn't catch I was just toying with your words. You said no one builds a team~ I'm not naive enough to think that I'm the first doing this. Hell I'm not naive enough to think this is the first time someone's made this argument.

Forcing innovation is always the best way to go with all things. How else would a tormentran set came up? Got to have fun with it and see how far you can push the borders on every conceivable strategy before locking yourself down into 'there is X and Y to win, that is all'. Trial and error.

What makes clefable and jirachi better?

Have you looked at Vespiquens stats? Rotom H has a 50/107/107 and is considered a tank with no recovery outside of leftovers/rest and three immunities. Vespiquen has 70/102/102 with access to a fantastic defense boost and roost. The only achiles heel in this mon is stealth rock which I built a team that keeps it off the field VERY well.

I've made successful teams before. There's so many balanced teams and -builds team to sweep with Xmon- that I get tired and wanted to have a little bit more of a theme. I've done rain dance, sandstorm and what people normally like me go through and this is an attempt at something in that same spirit.

As for the whole 'just not working'

Haven't battled in six months and have no experience with stall. I don't understand what stall does early game or how it's supposed to try and keep up with any other team because any poke with spikes you just don't want to switch in so early.

There's that problem and a problem with stat uppers, those are the two main things that ever really hold me down in a game typically. That and crits but shit happens.
 
HXCMLG Pogeman Trainer said:
You didn't catch I was just toying with your words. You said no one builds a team~ I'm not naive enough to think that I'm the first doing this. Hell I'm not naive enough to think this is the first time someone's made this argument.
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused what your point is in claiming awareness.

Forcing innovation is always the best way to go with all things. How else would a tormentran set came up?
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I'm willing to bet a lot of money that Torment Heatran was not thought up because someone went "i want to be unique wiht heatran, hey, torment is cool i should try that". It is much more likely that a good battler thought "Hey, I need a Heatran that can beat some of its regular counters. Hmm, I've noticed after some analysis that most of them carry only one move that can really hurt Heatran. Hey, it's a stretch, but maybe with Torment I can take advantage of this."

The difference between the two approaches is obvious. One just throws shit at the wall until something sticks, and the other is based on careful thought and analysis of the Pokemon metagame to determine if a gimmick set has competitive merit. It's pretty easy to see why one of those approaches barely works ever and the other only works some of the time.

Got to have fun with it and see how far you can push the borders on every conceivable strategy before locking yourself down into 'there is X and Y to win, that is all'. Trial and error.
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Trial and error, in a proper context, is experimentation. Experimentation is careful analysis by manipulating known factors and examining the unknowns. The reason that doesn't make any sense here though is because there shouldn't BE any unknowns in a perfectly predictable game. If you can think out the logical consequence of a sequence of events, "trial and error" becomes inherently inferior to "thinking about the problem" since it wastes so much more time. Mindless guesses and tests are only right because a broken clock is accurate twice a day.

"Forcing innovation" is the wrong way to come up with effective sets, because sets when you get down to it are solutions to a problem. When you force creativity, you don't even have a _real_ problem defined, other than "I don't like standards!!!", and you have a huge tendency to glue yourself to a solution you really like even before you have any idea if it works. Think!

What makes clefable and jirachi better?
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Jirachi resists a ton of attacks, has 100 / 100 / 100 defenses, Cosmic Power, Wish for recovery, and doesn't die to Stealth Rock. Toxic immune too!

Clefable has Magic Guard (holy shit is this a big fucking deal), 95 / 73 / 85 stats, Cosmic Power, Softboiled for recovery, and a giant movepool.

Have you looked at Vespiquens stats? Rotom H has a 50/107/107 and is considered a tank with no recovery outside of leftovers/rest and three immunities. Vespiquen has 70/102/102 with access to a fantastic defense boost and roost. The only achiles heel in this mon is stealth rock which I built a team that keeps it off the field VERY well.
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Vespiquen's stats are mediocre. When you look at how Rotom-H is played, you'll notice he isn't exactly taking tons of repeated neutral hits all the time. He has a select few very useful resistances and immunities that are key to dealing with particular Pokemon, and it's mainly used to status or "hit back". Vespiquen isn't exactly a massive improvement with only 20 more base HP; while no Infernape her defenses don't even rival something like Hariyama or Milotic.

Vespiquen has TERRIBLE typing. Even not considering Stealth Rock. Bug / Flying is plagued with tons of weaknesses with only notable resistances to Grass and Ground. Spending the entire battle getting SR off the field doesn't matter if you shit bricks at the sight of any Tyranitar.

I've made successful teams before.
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This isn't meant to call you out, but have you? How high have you gotten on the ladder? You make a ton of 'rookie mistakes' with this team (255 EVs in a stat, not using all 508 usable EVs in several pokemon, more than one pokemon without a single attack have fun with taunt lololol) so maybe you need an honest look at how competent you are at Pokemon before you continue trying to be creative.

There's a reason standards are standard - because they work. If you barely even know the ins and outs of the game, how can you expect to even master the standards, not to mention try something completely new?

There's that problem and a problem with stat uppers, those are the two main things that ever really hold me down in a game typically. That and crits but shit happens.
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People have a tendency to "ignore crits" in Pokemon but if you're aiming to stall a team out of PP, do the math and you'll quickly figure out your issues. The average move lets say has like 16 PP (being generous to you here). 4 x 16 x 6 = 384 turns of play. Your odds of not getting a crit in that many turns? 1.72571923 × 10-13 percent. You're going to have to think about crits!
 
Yea...You get ripped apart by a Bulkydos with Stone Edge. Zapdos is your realy only switch in and your opponient will soon figure out that Zapdos is your only switch in and will just fire off Water Fals and Stone Edges hopeing for the switch in. Gyarados compinesd with a ground type means that its almost gg since they get free switchs to Zapdos and then weaken your team. Your Rotom is walled by Rotom and you have no realy way to break him down. Also Vespiquin is just.....too frail. I actually faced on in UU today, here is how it turned out.

Dude switched in Vespiquen (lvl 100 Vespiquen ?).
Vespiquen is exerting its pressure!
Milotic used Recover.
Milotic restored 50% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Vespiquen used Defend Order.
Vespiquen's defence was raised.
Vespiquen's special defence was raised.
Milotic used Surf.
Vespiquen lost 21% of its health.
Vespiquen's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vespiquen restored 6% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 0% of its health.
---
ginganinja switched in Aggron (lvl 100 Aggron ?).
Vespiquen used Defend Order.
Vespiquen's defence was raised.
Vespiquen's special defence was raised.
Vespiquen's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vespiquen restored 6% of its health.
---
Aggron used Rock Polish.
Aggron's speed was sharply raised.
Vespiquen used Defend Order.
Vespiquen's defence was raised.
Vespiquen's special defence was raised.
Vespiquen's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vespiquen restored 6% of its health.
---
Aggron used Rock Polish.
Aggron's speed was sharply raised.
Vespiquen used Defend Order.
Vespiquen's defence was raised.
Vespiquen's special defence was raised.
Vespiquen's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vespiquen restored 3% of its health.
---
Aggron used Head Smash.
It's super effective!
Vespiquen lost 100% of its health.
Dude's Vespiquen fainted.
(5-4)
Aggron lost 10% of its health.

ginganinja: lol


SR was not up and he achieved 4 Def Boosts. I just don't think that Vespiqun can compeate in OU.

Personally you need something to beat Gliscor and something to beat ghost types. Spiritomb can act as a spin blocker and can checkmate ghosts with Pursuit or Shadow Ball/Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak. Suicune is also a nice pressure user and can run the Cro Cune set to scare away Gliscor and take hits pretty well.

The above changes are only quick fixs however, I realy think that this team needs an overhaul for it to even try to be effective. Toxic Spikes on your team (set up tentacruel, Roserade or even Forretress) would not go amiss either.)

Have a Nice Day!
 
Chris is me said:
I'm a little confused what your point is in claiming awareness.



I'm willing to bet a lot of money that Torment Heatran was not thought up because someone went "i want to be unique wiht heatran, hey, torment is cool i should try that". It is much more likely that a good battler thought "Hey, I need a Heatran that can beat some of its regular counters. Hmm, I've noticed after some analysis that most of them carry only one move that can really hurt Heatran. Hey, it's a stretch, but maybe with Torment I can take advantage of this."

The difference between the two approaches is obvious. One just throws shit at the wall until something sticks, and the other is based on careful thought and analysis of the Pokemon metagame to determine if a gimmick set has competitive merit. It's pretty easy to see why one of those approaches barely works ever and the other only works some of the time.



Trial and error, in a proper context, is experimentation. Experimentation is careful analysis by manipulating known factors and examining the unknowns. The reason that doesn't make any sense here though is because there shouldn't BE any unknowns in a perfectly predictable game. If you can think out the logical consequence of a sequence of events, "trial and error" becomes inherently inferior to "thinking about the problem" since it wastes so much more time. Mindless guesses and tests are only right because a broken clock is accurate twice a day.

"Forcing innovation" is the wrong way to come up with effective sets, because sets when you get down to it are solutions to a problem. When you force creativity, you don't even have a _real_ problem defined, other than "I don't like standards!!!", and you have a huge tendency to glue yourself to a solution you really like even before you have any idea if it works. Think!



Jirachi resists a ton of attacks, has 100 / 100 / 100 defenses, Cosmic Power, Wish for recovery, and doesn't die to Stealth Rock. Toxic immune too!

Clefable has Magic Guard (holy shit is this a big fucking deal), 95 / 73 / 85 stats, Cosmic Power, Softboiled for recovery, and a giant movepool.



Vespiquen's stats are mediocre. When you look at how Rotom-H is played, you'll notice he isn't exactly taking tons of repeated neutral hits all the time. He has a select few very useful resistances and immunities that are key to dealing with particular Pokemon, and it's mainly used to status or "hit back". Vespiquen isn't exactly a massive improvement with only 20 more base HP; while no Infernape her defenses don't even rival something like Hariyama or Milotic.

Vespiquen has TERRIBLE typing. Even not considering Stealth Rock. Bug / Flying is plagued with tons of weaknesses with only notable resistances to Grass and Ground. Spending the entire battle getting SR off the field doesn't matter if you shit bricks at the sight of any Tyranitar.



This isn't meant to call you out, but have you? How high have you gotten on the ladder? You make a ton of 'rookie mistakes' with this team (255 EVs in a stat, not using all 508 usable EVs in several pokemon, more than one pokemon without a single attack have fun with taunt lololol) so maybe you need an honest look at how competent you are at Pokemon before you continue trying to be creative.

There's a reason standards are standard - because they work. If you barely even know the ins and outs of the game, how can you expect to even master the standards, not to mention try something completely new?



People have a tendency to "ignore crits" in Pokemon but if you're aiming to stall a team out of PP, do the math and you'll quickly figure out your issues. The average move lets say has like 16 PP (being generous to you here). 4 x 16 x 6 = 384 turns of play. Your odds of not getting a crit in that many turns? 1.72571923 × 10-13 percent. You're going to have to think about crits!
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I was just letting you know I wasn't being so naive.

That's a hunch.

Not just throwing shit at a wall, if that was the case I would've just been putting in and out as many pokes as possible 'til it works.

I can't exactly argue with that argument. When you have a good argument you have a good argument and I'm not so fool headed to try and fight with you on everything you try to say.

Huh, thought only the purple duck had cosmic power. I was so certain that it was it it's move I didn't bother looking. Silly me.

Clefable doesn't look impressive.


I can make the arguments of who sets up that early in the game when you know the opponent still has a tyranitar, or the below listed aggron, and doesn't try to deal with the appropriate real threats before trying to execute the ending sort of sweep. That's simple battle tactics of scouting and waiting.

Yeah I used to play a crap ton. I didn't -care- about the ladder but I would look at it once in a while, just didn't matter cause as long as I was winning at least 3 games to 1 loss I didn't feel bad. I was typically extremely successful using balanced teams with mons like swampert, zapdos, machamp, rotom and friends. There's a lot of winning to be had with the right amount of prediction.

I'm not claiming to ever have climbed high tho', and I didn't do good in the only smogon tour I ever participated in.

The whole ev things, haha I used the sliding bar on pokemon online. Didn't notice it, quick team buildings. As for the whole taunt thing-it happens. I don't exactly see taunt users often...doesn't happen.

Err crits as in ill timed crits such as the turn you make a wish with a blissey when you've been taking 18% and suddenly you take 42% from a crit. Turns out that 18% was a low. I know they are going to happen......it's my only gripe of the game because even on normal teams I see at least two+ crits a game.

Meh that's luck. Anyways isn't this a bit of a pissing contest? We've gone down to arguing player choices and other such things. I can argue til the sun goes down......err that doesn't apply to this conversation that started last night......well you get the point. Seriously tho' you're an alright guy, a bit on the pessimistic and presumptuous side-but I can say that about myself. If you really feel the urge to keep arguing just message me so that way we're not bumping this RMT continuously with this little display of cocks.

@aggronguy-

Agreed, and Huh. So a 4x super effective attack kills. Neato. Perhaps I forced vespiquen in, perhaps I've just been lucky every game I played with it.
 
Not many taunt users? One of the most used Pokemon in the current OU metagame is Gyarados and one of his most common sets is Bulky Taunt Gyarados. Also taunt is one of the most standard moves on a lot of leads which means that if they stick around they will be taunting your pokemon and rendering them useless. Also nearly every single decent team has at least two ways to stop stall you will be running into Taunt Gliscors, Umbreons and tons of other Pokemon.

If you want this team to be even Viable you should definitely take a Clefable over your Vespiqueen or even a defensive Rotom variant. As this will allow you to not have such a weakness to rocks and Toxic. Clefable can balance out is defences and use Cosmic Power, Softboiled, Toxic/Thunderwave, and then Facade/Body Slam depending on if you go for a Toxic Orb or lefties.

Anyway, I don't even want to go into a full rate as you have far to many Pokemon weak to Taunt and you really need a Pokemon like Infernape or Starmie to help clean up and attempt a sweep at the end. Also a priority user like Scizor would help a lot.
 
HXCMLG Pogeman Trainer said:
@aggronguy-

Agreed, and Huh. So a 4x super effective attack kills. Neato. Perhaps I forced vespiquen in, perhaps I've just been lucky every game I played with it.
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Im ginganinja....... giganinja if you are in a rush lol. Not "aggronguy"

Anyway the purpose of the log was not to show the power of rock type moves on Vespiquen, rather it was meant to showcase that even with defence boosts, Vespiqen cannot take hits. Due to it having a wide range of weaknesses it canot boost effectivally. Also Vespiquen is set up fodder for many things. For example Machamp can switch in (you switch out unless you like to take a Stone Edge) and Machamp gets a free Sub and then pretty much sweeps you. Heatran does pretty much the same thing, BLissey stops it but has to watch out for taunt or Explosion (or Both). I don't realy know what you are thinking when you state that Taunt users are not common since GLiscor (which pretty much always carries taunt) and Gyarados both threaten you. Your team also has quite a large Ice Weakness. In response to this I will suggest a number of change shown below for you to consider.

Breloom: I suggest dropping it for a Roserade. It gets up Toxic Spikes fast and still gives you the option over sleeping something. Running Toxic SPikes on it also frees up a moveslot on Forretress which you sorely need.

Zapdos: Drop Roar/Toxic for HP Ice so that you can better dea lwith GLisocr which can be threatning to your team. It also hits FLygon and Dragonite super effectivally which is always since to have. IF you REALLY want you can still run Roar if you wish. The analysis also recomends a 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 Spe spread which Iagree with since speed IS needed when running Sub Roost. The speed also lets you beat Gyarados and all Lucario was well. with the aove Sread you also still take hits very well and its optimal for a Sub Roost Zapdos.

Forretress: Drop Toxic Spikes (since its on Roserade) and run Payback to better hit ghosts. Also drop Rapid Spin for Earthquake or Gyro Ball or Explosion, I have a slightly better spinner in mind.

Blissey: Its a great staller but personally I think that a LO starmei with Rapid SPinner is currently the best spinner in the game, you handle things like Gyarados,Gliscor Dragonite and Heatran much easier. YOu lose out on stalling power which means that Starme going over Forretress i also an option however that leaves you without Spikes and SR.

Heatran : Yeah you can keep it how it is.

Vespiquen: Yeah I just don't think its that viable in OU sorry. Heatran, Machamp, Gyarados, Gliscor, Jirachi, Flygon, Infernape, Metagross, Sub Charge Rotom, Swampert, Togekiss, Tyranitar etc all beat you and personally I think that a ghost type like Spiritomb fits better since it still abuses Pressure and gives you a spinblocker so your hazards do not get spun away.

Hope I helped.

Have a Nice Day!
 
No offense intended Ginganinja, that was me trying to rush cause I was supposed to go to an amusement park in half an hour at the time of the post. That got canceled soz, here I am again

But thanks for giving suggestions the second time around. Change of pace is nice :D

Well I realize taunt is used, I just don't run into it often. Does it make sense from what you're saying? No. Is it what's happening? Yes. I'm sure nobody sees as many crits a game as I do or they would probably have all quit pokemon for six months every three months. haha.

Anyways mildly crappy day, going to go attempt and salve it out in the world. I'll get back to on you guys later. Thanks for what suggestions you do have. :D

For the record I've only HAD to pp stall three pokemon so far: Dragonite, Snorlax, Heracross.......the heracross was choiced and last mon so that's kind of cheating but still. Still win near all my games because of toxic spikes and just general stall tactics.
 
Unfortunately, Vespiqueen doesn't really work in OU or, as Ginga pointed, UU. It's NU for a reason and teams who use NU pokemon and are adamant to keep it that way tend to not be so sucessful with their team when they reach a higher CRE. I suggest switching it for something who can still do what you want, but can take a hit. A Cosmic Power Jirachi can really be annoying.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
EVs and nature are kind of just whatever. If you use a SpD nature, use max Def. 252 HP always.
-Cosmic Power
-Toxic
-Iron Head
-Wish

This set has everything Vespiqueen had, just like 900 times better. It still has the original feel you like and this set isn't on the strategyDex. I think they had one but... I don't know.

If you have T-Spikes on Forre, than why have Toxic on all of your pokemon? I'm serious. You really need to use that slot for an attacking move so your not Taunt dead.

This team does need some work.

The team isn't really PP Stall and more like overall Stall. You have a Blissey and a Forre. It's like SkarmBliss only with more entry hazards! Yeah!

Hope I helped.
 
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