Policy Review Policy Review - The "4th Genning" of Create-A-Pokemon Project

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Deck Knight

Deck Knight

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If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.
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Everyone is excited about the 5th Generation right now, and rightly so. However, activity in the CAP Forum has stagnated to what some active participants believe is an unacceptable amount of lull. The purpose of this thread is to get us back into active mode and set up a transition strategy. These are all discussion points that can and will be altered if neccesary.

1. Current CAP Projects are 4th Generation anchored Pokemon

What this means is that we are not going to transfer the first eleven CAP Projects into Generation V. Instead this forum's current iteration is going to be moved into a "Stark Mountain" like status. It remains the only widely playable generation but activity is expected to decrease.

This also means when we finally are able to make a functional 5th Generation CAP Pokemon, that Pokemon will not be retrofitted into the 4th Generation. We build CAP Pokemon for the standard metagame of the most recent generation. For 5th Gen this means we will have to wait for that metagame to stabilize for a little while, so in truth the actual date we start 5th Generation CAP projects is months away.

2. 5th Generation Projects are going to require the same enthusiasm and participation

We have a lot of setup work to do before we can get this running, but in the interim we need everyone to pay attention to what is going on in CAP. What we need now is for people to get active posting their playtest RMTs from various metagames and explaining how they worked. Our report implementation for CAPs is a very recent policy change that should have occurred a while ago, and as it's infeasible to reset ladders back to those eras, the best we can get is RMTs and analysis from that period.

3. Tiering Process and Reversions Metagame

The tiering process for 4th Gen CAP Projects has always been a sticky wicket that we have never resolved. Very soon we will begin playtesting reversions on the CAP Server and we will need feedback. Currently these are not implemented but I will try to get Doug to get them live as soon as he is able. Please be patient in this interim time. "Reversions" is effectively the endpoint of the 4th Generation CAP metagame, and we wlll need as much information as we can get on whether our implementation of the VGM system was effective in addressing power creep concerns.

4. Tying up loose ends

Because of the busy schedule of our leadership we've been a bit lax in tying things up. I will be doing a few of my own personal endeavors to try and gather any important feedback I feel was left out or never addressed because of the constant cycle of renewing CAP activity. Stay alert and try to find your own ways to help bring vibrancy back to the forum. CAP is nothing without its community, and the official leadership can only do so much. This is a perfect opportunity to provide introspection on what you thought our 4th general CAP process did correctly and incorrectly. Please provide feedback in this thread if you can, it is greatly appreciated.
 
I absolutely agree with your sentiment for how to handle the 4th generation CAPs. They should definitely be left as-is and not updated for the 5th gen move tutors/TM lists/whatever. However, that isn't to say that we should lock them away and forget about them! I think we should implement them as-is on any 5th gen server Doug eventually comes up with for retro battles in the spirit of fun. They wouldn't be a part of the CAP metagame or whatever, but they should be there just to have fun.

Also, yeah, reversions do actually need to get implemented. What with PL now in public beta, SU's server back online with normal levels of lag, and general normality returning to Smogon, we need to actually get this show on the road before our candles burn out. That said, we should definitely look into fun projects for the inbetween time until the 5th gen server and metagame is ready for us to jump in. We can garner a lot of support for these fun projects and they would keep us all interested in the meantime. We had a few ideas bouncing around in IRC, and I'll post about them once Doug gives me the go-ahead.

Otherwise, everything looks good. By the way, we do need to finish those PRs at some point. Doug or tennis concluding them would be cool. I can take care of the on-site updates once things are concluded. I also have to finish Voodoom's analysis, as a quick afterthought. Anyway, it's good to see the initiative here to get CAP on track again. Let's make it happen!
 
The reverted CAP pokemon are now live on the CAP server, and the ratings for the CAP ladder have been reset. We can now begin developing a plan for balancing the CAP metagame.

I think we should try to go outside the box in developing a playtesting strategy and balancing process.
1) CAP is not bound to normal Smogon rules on this stuff. The CAP project has a great deal of leeway to experiment here.

2) Our meta has different dynamics anyway

3) We have different membership demographics than the tiering community for the standard metagame, particularly amongst server regulars

4) We might actually discover a great way to do this sort of thing, that could inform the rest of the community on interesting alternatives​

I'm not too sure of how we should go about it, but don't necessarily think of this in terms of how Smogon has done things previously.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
I absolutely agree with your sentiment for how to handle the 4th generation CAPs. They should definitely be left as-is and not updated for the 5th gen move tutors/TM lists/whatever. However, that isn't to say that we should lock them away and forget about them! I think we should implement them as-is on any 5th gen server Doug eventually comes up with for retro battles in the spirit of fun. They wouldn't be a part of the CAP metagame or whatever, but they should be there just to have fun.
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Well, I agree with this statement. I think that retrofitting the CAPs for the 5th generation shouldn't be discounted entirely (I suggest a case-by-case system instead, discussing any ideas for changes before actually making the decisions on whether or not to implement them,) but that's just me. But we should definitely leave them available for play on the 5th-gen battle servers!

(Note to tennisace - I know I said my ideas could be disregarded as you guys saw fit, but at least give the rest of the community the chance to see it, please!)
 
I would personally like to see how the CAPs would fare in Gen V play; then again, I never played with them last gen to begin with b/c Shoddy was being a douche on my comp for unknown reasons so I never even had the chance.
 
I disagree with the first point and recommend a test period of GenV-available CAPs, most likely with none to minor alterations to their movepools, either in the official CAP server or a seperate server. I can host, if need be. At the very least, it would be interesting to see how they handle the new metagame after the transition. If the idea that prior CAPs should be retained finds support after that test period, then they can be fully rebuilt in GenV. If not, well, that's that.

CAP is, in its heart, a fanboy's endeavour. Despite not doing much in their creation, it doesn't appeal to me to throw them away, not to mention adapting the old CAPs to the new metagame brings a new facet to CAP.
 
Alper said:
CAP is, in its heart, a fanboy's endeavour.
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I'm sorry, but no, it's not. Please read CAP's mission statement to get a better idea of why CAP actually works and is allowed to exist at this website. Furthermore, I disagree with this idea of a testing period or whatever. What are we even testing? We'd be testing whether people like them enough to add them to the 5th generation metagame? That isn't how it works; we all like the CAPs in some fashion, but we must somehow come to a conclusion as to how to address the new generation.

New generation should breed totally new and independent CAPs that allow reuse of old concepts. We all love our 4th gen CAPs, but let's keep them 4th gen insofar as the primary metagame goes. We'll bring them over in their current state for unrated games, and that's pretty much it.
 
And all the work to actually keep the fanboy influence on our decision making was pointless!? Man, that's too bad...!!!

Just because it is planned not to bring the current CAPs to the 5th Gen, that doesn't mean that they are being thrown away. They will always be standing "testaments" to how and what we learned about the Generation and the entire game itself. Adding moves and another ability to the Caps certainly wouldn't teach us much outside of how they change. Either that or it's a way that some people would want to somehow "balance" the metagame to their liking.
 
I'm not really a CAP contributor, but I had a relevant idea. Why don't we just "upgrade" the 4th gen CAPs so that they can fit into this new gen? Every other 4th gen pokemon got some buffs and nerfs, like new moves and abilities...what is stopping us from doing that with the 4th gen CAPs?
 
Absolutely nothing. A new egg move or two and a Dream World ability are really all that would be necessary to bring them into Gen 5.

Sort of off-topic but not quite, just a thought I had for the interim while we wait for Gen V to stabilize. Rising_Dusk mentions something about "fun" projects for the interim. Perhaps a Gen IV Uber CAP. It would be something interesting to try, for sure, especially as Uber is a drastically different metagame from OU.

This all said, I'm going to try and be active this generation in CAP. I was in and out once or twice in Gen IV, mostly because I was bothered by it pretty much dying in between projects. We also probably need to find ways to draw in a larger userbase.
 
I could have sworn it was in this thread but I guess not. The reason updating 4th gen CAPs doesn't make sense is because those CAPs are made for the 4th gen metagame. Shoehorning them into 5th gen by giving them a few more moves and a new ability does nothing for them, because they are specifically designed to work in the vacuum that is 4th gen. Take Colossoil. We decided to make a Pokemon to shut down secondary effects. We did this by giving Colossoil Rapid Spin, Taunt, and Sucker Punch, along with STAB Earthquake and Pursuit. However, look at Doryuuzu in 5th gen. It does essentially the same thing, AND doubles its speed in the sand, AND gets Swords Dance. So updating Colossoil really won't help it since it's actually better to use Doryuuzu.

Another reason is that, realistically, almost nobody participates in revisions at all. However, by reusing the concepts of CAP Pokemon (that are still relevant and unfilled in the 5th gen metagame), we increase activity a lot since many people like to create the actual Pokemon.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
We'd be testing whether people like them enough to add them to the 5th generation metagame?
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We'll be testing whether they still fill properly the niches they were designed for in the previous generation. That alone is interesting, look at the heyday of Dugtrio in RS before its fade to obscurity again, or the sudden tier jump Wobbuffet did between GSC and RS. Taking a look at how the current CAPs handle a generation shift is a good way to pass the buffer weeks while the new metagame settles. tennisace makes a good case on Colossoil, if only in theorymon. Does Colossoil's lack of Ground weakness and better defensive capability outdo Doryuzu? If not, do all CAPs likewise falter?

And I'd rather if you didn't assume I post without reading relevant info. Honestly, I still don't see how anyone can deny that the entire project is driven by fanboyism. But eh, that's beside the point.
 
Alper said:
We'll be testing whether they still fill properly the niches they were designed for in the previous generation. That alone is interesting, look at the heyday of Dugtrio in RS before its fade to obscurity again, or the sudden tier jump Wobbuffet did between GSC and RS. Taking a look at how the current CAPs handle a generation shift is a good way to pass the buffer weeks while the new metagame settles. tennisace makes a good case on Colossoil, if only in theorymon. Does Colossoil's lack of Ground weakness and better defensive capability outdo Doryuzu? If not, do all CAPs likewise falter?
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Ground/Dark typing has all of Ground's weaknesses. And all of Dark's. The typings do nothing for each other defensively. The CAPs were made with 4th Gen OU's current metagame threats in mind at the time of their creation. Syclant was made at a time before Scizor got Bullet Punch, which lifted it to the top of Bug-type offense. Syclant was no longer a powerful force as soon as Platinum was released, and there are now even more Pokemon with huge offenses that resist both Ice and Bug.

Fidgit was powerful because the baseline speed for most threats was 100. Now that has been boosted to 108 (at least), meaning Fidgit's 105 Speed is entirely insufficient for doing it's most common trick, which was switching into a Base 100 set-up sweeper and using Encore. Erufuun now does that better than Fidgit because it's Encore has priority. Combine with the new list of even more absurd Ground-type attackers and Fidgit's days are numbered.

I can continue in this vein for most CAPs, and yeah, in theory DW abilities can make up for some of the failings, but not all of them, and it's foolish to try and transfer them over. CAP's purpose is to test concepts that appear lacking in OU, however it is constructed at that time. 4th Gen OU does not run amok with Doryuuzu and Sazandora (or even previously known and basically unchanged threats like Garchomp)

And I'd rather if you didn't assume I post without reading relevant info. Honestly, I still don't see how anyone can deny that the entire project is driven by fanboyism. But eh, that's beside the point.
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I'm pretty sure people who have been working on the project for a long time and have tried to fix those aspects and dealt with those concerns can deny that, but then I don't go over to your house and insult your wife's cooking.
 
Oh I get it now that I looked over things. These pokemon are now to obsolete to do anything in the new Gen. That makes since. But even with B?W release months from now, do you think it would be wise to start based of the metagame set from Pokemon Onilne and the Japanese games?
 
I'm not much into CAP, but I have been following the project, and I have a proposition: while we're waiting for the 5th Gen metagame to settle, why not "Update" the 4th Gen CAPS with 5th Gen DW abilities and new TMs/attacks, and stick them into a 5th Gen CAP metagame? We get to do some experimenting on transition for our beloved CAPS, and when it comes time to start making 5th Gen CAPS, we just sac the 4th Gen updated ones?
 
Spenstar said:
I'm not much into CAP, but I have been following the project, and I have a proposition: while we're waiting for the 5th Gen metagame to settle, why not "Update" the 4th Gen CAPS with 5th Gen DW abilities and new TMs/attacks, and stick them into a 5th Gen CAP metagame? We get to do some experimenting on transition for our beloved CAPS, and when it comes time to start making 5th Gen CAPS, we just sac the 4th Gen updated ones?
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tennisace said:
I could have sworn it was in this thread but I guess not. The reason updating 4th gen CAPs doesn't make sense is because those CAPs are made for the 4th gen metagame. Shoehorning them into 5th gen by giving them a few more moves and a new ability does nothing for them, because they are specifically designed to work in the vacuum that is 4th gen. Take Colossoil. We decided to make a Pokemon to shut down secondary effects. We did this by giving Colossoil Rapid Spin, Taunt, and Sucker Punch, along with STAB Earthquake and Pursuit. However, look at Doryuuzu in 5th gen. It does essentially the same thing, AND doubles its speed in the sand, AND gets Swords Dance. So updating Colossoil really won't help it since it's actually better to use Doryuuzu.

Another reason is that, realistically, almost nobody participates in revisions at all. However, by reusing the concepts of CAP Pokemon (that are still relevant and unfilled in the 5th gen metagame), we increase activity a lot since many people like to create the actual Pokemon.
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Yeah this is about four posts above yours on a one page thread.
 
I understand the reasoning behind not refreshing the CAPs, since they were built around a concept that applied in the Gen 4 metagame. However, this isn't necessarily always true; take Stratagem. His concept was "break the mold" ergo, take a typing, and create a pokémon that represents the polar opposite of the sterotype for that typing. Does Stratagem still fulfill this? Yep. With a few exceptions generally caused by secondary typings, almost all Rock types are slow, physically bulky, with crap special stats, and shallow movepools. The only new pokémon which goes against the Rock stereotype is Aakeosu, who is only fast because of his Flying-type and his SpA is just anomolous (and overshadowed by his excellent 140 Atk). We already had Aero who was faster and Omastar who had higher SpA than Aakeosu, so really, Stratagem still fulfills his concept beautifully.

Of course, others, such as Collosoil, no longer fulfil their concepts so well. But due to cases like Stratagem's (admittedly, he may be the only exception; I've not analysed all the CAPs in this regard), I feel it would be better if we decided whether or not to import CAPs on a case-by-case basis, rather than deciding on them all together.
 
domeface said:
I understand the reasoning behind not refreshing the CAPs, since they were built around a concept that applied in the Gen 4 metagame. However, this isn't necessarily always true; take Stratagem. His concept was "break the mold" ergo, take a typing, and create a pokémon that represents the polar opposite of the sterotype for that typing. Does Stratagem still fulfill this? Yep. With a few exceptions generally caused by secondary typings, almost all Rock types are slow, physically bulky, with crap special stats, and shallow movepools. The only new pokémon which goes against the Rock stereotype is Aakeosu, who is only fast because of his Flying-type and his SpA is just anomolous (and overshadowed by his excellent 140 Atk). We already had Aero who was faster and Omastar who had higher SpA than Aakeosu, so really, Stratagem still fulfills his concept beautifully.

Of course, others, such as Collosoil, no longer fulfil their concepts so well. But due to cases like Stratagem's (admittedly, he may be the only exception; I've not analysed all the CAPs in this regard), I feel it would be better if we decided whether or not to import CAPs on a case-by-case basis, rather than deciding on them all together.
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I can see this working in the case of Stratagem, but there is still the problem of interest in actually revising the CAPs. How do we get people to actually participate in the revision process?
 
I don't actively participate in CAP but I still follow it and understand its role/mission.

That said I think that CAP's should be put in a 5th gen metagame and still show something about how the metagame shifted. Because the CAP projects were built very specifically to fit a role then by looking at how their role changed we can see how the metagame has shifted. Speaking in general terms, if X's role in gen 4 was to do Y, can it do this in gen 5? If it no longer does this then we can work out how the metagame has changed. Using these examples is better than random abstract theorymon IMO.
 
Here's how I see it:
The admins don't want the 4th gen CAPs to move on, but a lot of other people do. There are sound reasons/suggestions from both sides, but no agreements can be made.

IMO, the 4th gen CAPs should not be changed to try and fit into the gen 5 metagame. Yes, every REAL poke gets to change, but they were not made to be part of a specific metagame in a specific generation. CAP's purpose is to adapt to the current metagame with new CAPs; they fill roles that are missing from the CURRENT metagame. So, bringing in CAPs from an old metagame to try and fit them in new metagame is futile. Plus, Gamefreak pretty much figured out those holes, anyway. New CAPs for the new metagame.

Just sayin
 
Rather than have this continue to go around back and forth I think it's time to close up shop here. We're still working behind the scenes trying to figure out the logistics of what we need, but for the decision for 4th Gen CAPs is final.
 
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