Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[TheGamer7777]

I am fully confident your Linoone could outspeed the other Linoone if it had a better nature since your Linoone has EV's and Norman's does not.

 

[Theasiancp3]

The divisions between early/mid/late are not objective or particularly useful, giving the exact location is much more precise and there's no need to have both the location and a marker of "mid/late/early".



Obtainable levels are not related to availability. When obtainable levels are particularly relevant to a mon's performance then it fits best under Additional Comments.

Of course it's important that the sections be as similar as possible in terms of template for much the same reason that the writeups as a whole use the same template.

Hey! Just curious, but why is Numel in C tier? On page 18, you dropped Numel from B to C literally because an extreme Numel hater (sumwun) felt he had “bad experiences” with the Pokemon? On page 18, you say that you disagree with him, but that it’s w/e. Nobody else except him had a strong opinion on the matter.

It’s funny, because I spent the past hour or so going through all 38 pages of this thread, and sumwun was literally the only user who constantly attacked Numel/Camerupt for no reason. At first he cried about how trash Numel/Camerupt’s movepool was, and when people called him out on it, he refused to acknowledge this and continued to cry. Now he’s trying to get Numel dropped into D tier (which makes absolutely no sense at all) and gives no real explanation at all

Earlier in this thread, you (along with others) considered Numel to solidly be a B tier Pokemon (which I completely agree with, due to its excellent move pool, good attacking stats, etc.).

Nobody seemed to have an issue with this except sumwun, who at first clearly never even used one before in-game (which you called him out on, this was close to 2 years ago).

Not trying to attack sumwun or anyone else, but just curious as to why Numel went from B to C when it seems that only 1 user had a strong opinion on the matter. From reading all 38 pages of this thread, it seems that you were perfectly content with Numel solidly in B tier

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Fairly sure I also supported Numel to drop to C somewhere in there. For my money it pretty clearly shouldn't be B, from the time of it's acquisition the only particularly good gym or E4 matchup it has is Flannery, everything else is varying shades of average to poor. It's strong, but not incredibly strong, meaning that it will be 2HKOing rather than OHKOing enemies to which it doesn't have a type advantage over. This becomes problematic because ground/fire has a limited set of resistances, and as Camerupt is bulky but not incredibly so, this leads to Camerupt both being something of a Potion sponge as well as limiting it's ability to fight effectively against the elite four. Even against someone like Glacia or Steven it won't be able to take more than a couple of neutral hits, meaning it will get 3HKOed before being able to do so in return. Compared to something like Tentacruel or Absol, the difference in ability is stark. Slow mins need to have high degrees of power or bulk or type advantage to excel, preferably two of the three, but Camerupt does not, simply being average to above average in those areas. Sumwun's argument for D may not even be unreasonable. I would have to run with Camerupt again alongside a couple mons for comparison, but I can see some clear parallels to something like Muk which I argued for C but which ended up in D.


Speaking of, Merritt it might be worth revisiting Muk and a couple others in D. Assuming you process my nominations for Zubat and Spoink to drop, C tier starts to thin out a little bit


Edit: nvm, nothing in D is out of place. Only thing I'm seeing that should move to C is wingull dropping from B (HM slave boosts it but it combat level is D range at best)

 

[Theasiancp3]

Fairly sure I also supported Numel to drop to C somewhere in there. For my money it pretty clearly shouldn't be B, from the time of it's acquisition the only particularly good gym or E4 matchup it has is Flannery, everything else is varying shades of average to poor. It's strong, but not incredibly strong, meaning that it will be 2HKOing rather than OHKOing enemies to which it doesn't have a type advantage over. This becomes problematic because ground/fire has a limited set of resistances, and as Camerupt is bulky but not incredibly so, this leads to Camerupt both being something of a Potion sponge as well as limiting it's ability to fight effectively against the elite four. Even against someone like Glacia or Steven it won't be able to take more than a couple of neutral hits, meaning it will get 3HKOed before being able to do so in return. Compared to something like Tentacruel or Absol, the difference in ability is stark. Slow mins need to have high degrees of power or bulk or type advantage to excel, preferably two of the three, but Camerupt does not, simply being average to above average in those areas. Sumwun's argument for D may not even be unreasonable. I would have to run with Camerupt again alongside a couple mons for comparison, but I can see some clear parallels to something like Muk which I argued for C but which ended up in D.


Speaking of, Merritt it might be worth revisiting Muk and a couple others in D. Assuming you process my nominations for Zubat and Spoink to drop, C tier starts to thin out a little bit


Edit: nvm, nothing in D is out of place. Only thing I'm seeing that should move to C is wingull dropping from B (HM slave boosts it but it combat level is D range at best)

I disagree with this assessment.

Numel excels against Flannery like you said, but also has a really good matchup against Winona as well (which was mentioned within the first 10 pages of this thread) due to Camerupt’s ability to learn Rock Slide via Level Up. With base 100/105 ATT/SPA, and access to high power moves such as EQ/RS/FT, Camerupt hits hard from both sides and is a much more powerful than you think, allowing it to excel against every single one of Winona’s Pokemon outside of Pelipper

Ofc, Numel struggles much more in Emerald where one must face Team Archie, Juan, Wallace, and a buffed up Tate/Liza (where claydol has EQ), but in RS (Maybe even more so in Ruby), Numel proves to be B tier IMO quite clearly

In ruby version, Numel/Camerupt can wipe through Flannery’s team without much of an issue, if any. As long as one is not incredibly unlucky with Magnitude, even Torkoal isn’t a big issue. Most of Winona’s team goes down fairly easily as well. Also, Numel/Camerupt tears through every variation of Maxie and other magma grunts with some combination of EQ/flamethrower/RS. It is perfectly capable of handling its own against Tate/Liza, and if Solrock sets up Sunny Day, Camerupt’s FT/OH is incredibly powerful despite being NVE.

While water routes aren’t the best for Numel/Camerupt, its able to excel for a few battles in Victory Road, esp against Wally, where it excels against the majority of his Pokemon

As for the Elite Four, Camerupt has success against Sydney and Glacia, and even Steven as well. Skarm is OHKO’d by Overheat/Fire Blast, and unless your Camerupt has a terrible attack stat, it OHKO Aggron as well with EQ

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I disagree with this assessment.

Numel excels against Flannery like you said, but also has a really good matchup against Winona as well (which was mentioned within the first 10 pages of this thread) due to Camerupt’s ability to learn Rock Slide via Level Up. With base 100/105 ATT/SPA, and access to high power moves such as EQ/RS/FT, Camerupt hits hard from both sides and is a much more powerful than you think, allowing it to excel against every single one of Winona’s Pokemon outside of Pelipper

Ofc, Numel struggles much more in Emerald where one must face Team Archie, Juan, Wallace, and a buffed up Tate/Liza (where claydol has EQ), but in RS (Maybe even more so in Ruby), Numel proves to be B tier IMO quite clearly

In ruby version, Numel/Camerupt can wipe through Flannery’s team without much of an issue, if any. As long as one is not incredibly unlucky with Magnitude, even Torkoal isn’t a big issue. Most of Winona’s team goes down fairly easily as well. Also, Numel/Camerupt tears through every variation of Maxie and other magma grunts with some combination of EQ/flamethrower/RS. It is perfectly capable of handling its own against Tate/Liza, and if Solrock sets up Sunny Day, Camerupt’s FT/OH is incredibly powerful despite being NVE.

While water routes aren’t the best for Numel/Camerupt, its able to excel for a few battles in Victory Road, esp against Wally, where it excels against the majority of his Pokemon

As for the Elite Four, Camerupt has success against Sydney and Glacia, and even Steven as well. Skarm is OHKO’d by Overheat/Fire Blast, and unless your Camerupt has a terrible attack stat, it OHKO Aggron as well with EQ

You say you disagree but what I read is that you agree with me. Flannery is it's best matchup, Winona is on the higher side of average depending on how your particular Camerupt performs against Altaria. It can contribute against Glacia's Glalie but not her seals, and can contribute against parts of Steven. What else does it excel against? Numel cannot fight Norman at all, Camerupt is vulnerable to both Earthquakes and Psychics against Tate and Liza meaning it can typically get only one neutral attack off a la Blaziken, it cannot fight against Juan/Wallace, it observes average/neutral matchups against Sidney and Phoebe, can fight only Shelgon vs Drake and loses horribly to Wallace.

Neither Team Aqua nor Team Magma are given consideration because there's no actual difficulty in fighting them.

Considering this what do we have? Something with at most two favourable matchups, a handful of neutral matchups, and fully half matchups in which it cannot perform. Moreover in the neutral matchups it will usually be among the slowest things on the field, limiting its ability to fight more than one or two enemies without Potion sinking.

I think you also overstate Numel's performance vs Flannery's Torkoal, it's not a matchup I've run recently but I've run just about everything else and I would be fairly comfortable saying that Numel would expect a 3HKO with average Magnitude rolls but would be 2HKOed in return either by Body Slam or Sunny Day+Overheat.

Numel ends up being a Pokemon that excels against route trainers and lesser challenges but falls short against the majority of major enemies. This level of performance is one that is seen time and again across the middle tiers, something we've been extremely consistent about ranking. Things that do this and cannot perform against major fights go to E (i.e. Beautifly), things that do so and have adequate performance go to D (i.e. Mightyena, Torkoal, Swalot), and things that route clear well and have solid performances in major fights go to C (i.e. Dodrio and Flygon).

It needs to be restated again that D tier is not a bad ranking whatsoever, by and large these rankings represent D as the "average" tier of performance. To be ranked C, B, and higher a Pokemon needs to show progressively greater degrees of performance. Compare the performances of other B tiers like Absol, Slaking, Hariyama, Heracross, Lanturn, Starmie, or Whiscash. Each of these boasts significantly greater feats of performance backed by some combination of typing, stats, or movepool than anything Camerupt can hope to approach.

If Numel sits in C tier this can be interpreted as a Pokemon that is "above average", in D, as "average". Both of these are clearly more representative of Numel's abilities than the "good" or "great" or "below average" of B, A, and E, respectively.


Edit: it's also worth acknowledging that our standards and evaluative abilities now are much more robust than they were two years ago. Two years ago the standards for movement were much lower and you had me arguing that Breloom wasn't really all that great where now I argue it for S tier. The arguments and support from the first twelve pages or so really don't carry any weight any more because they simply aren't as relevant or applicable anymore as the standards have evolved.

 

[Theasiancp3]

You say you disagree but what I read is that you agree with me. Flannery is it's best matchup, Winona is on the higher side of average depending on how your particular Camerupt performs against Altaria. It can contribute against Glacia's Glalie but not her seals, and can contribute against parts of Steven. What else does it excel against? Numel cannot fight Norman at all, Camerupt is vulnerable to both Earthquakes and Psychics against Tate and Liza meaning it can typically get only one neutral attack off a la Blaziken, it cannot fight against Juan/Wallace, it observes average/neutral matchups against Sidney and Phoebe, can fight only Shelgon vs Drake and loses horribly to Wallace.

Neither Team Aqua nor Team Magma are given consideration because there's no actual difficulty in fighting them.

Considering this what do we have? Something with at most two favourable matchups, a handful of neutral matchups, and fully half matchups in which it cannot perform. Moreover in the neutral matchups it will usually be among the slowest things on the field, limiting its ability to fight more than one or two enemies without Potion sinking.

I think you also overstate Numel's performance vs Flannery's Torkoal, it's not a matchup I've run recently but I've run just about everything else and I would be fairly comfortable saying that Numel would expect a 3HKO with average Magnitude rolls but would be 2HKOed in return either by Body Slam or Sunny Day+Overheat.

Numel ends up being a Pokemon that excels against route trainers and lesser challenges but falls short against the majority of major enemies. This level of performance is one that is seen time and again across the middle tiers, something we've been extremely consistent about ranking. Things that do this and cannot perform against major fights go to E (i.e. Beautifly), things that do so and have adequate performance go to D (i.e. Mightyena, Torkoal, Swalot), and things that route clear well and have solid performances in major fights go to C (i.e. Dodrio and Flygon).

It needs to be restated again that D tier is not a bad ranking whatsoever, by and large these rankings represent D as the "average" tier of performance. To be ranked C, B, and higher a Pokemon needs to show progressively greater degrees of performance. Compare the performances of other B tiers like Absol, Slaking, Hariyama, Heracross, Lanturn, Starmie, or Whiscash. Each of these boasts significantly greater feats of performance backed by some combination of typing, stats, or movepool than anything Camerupt can hope to approach.

If Numel sits in C tier this can be interpreted as a Pokemon that is "above average", in D, as "average". Both of these are clearly more representative of Numel's abilities than the "good" or "great" or "below average" of B, A, and E, respectively.


Edit: it's also worth acknowledging that our standards and evaluative abilities now are much more robust than they were two years ago. Two years ago the standards for movement were much lower and you had me arguing that Breloom wasn't really all that great where now I argue it for S tier. The arguments and support from the first twelve pages or so really don't carry any weight any more because they simply aren't as relevant or applicable anymore as the standards have evolved.

Of course standards are much different than 2 years ago. However, the OP of this thread, as of a year ago, had Numel in B tier. Numel was dropped to C tier and he even admitted on page 18 that he DISAGREED with it but didn’t care because nobody was actively trying to make an argument against dropping it. As for D tier, sumwun tried to make a case for it but OP chose to not even give a response, which tells me that OP dos not agree with such a decision either.

Also, i am not just appealing to authority here. EQ is an incredibly diverse attack in in-game Gen 3, not to mention that it’s STAB, coming off 100 base ATT, and Numel does not require a TM to learn the move.

Absol shot up from D tier to B tier within a few months, and I can’t think of a good reason as to why, outside of the fact that many people started advocating for it, which created a snowball effect.

You are severely underrating Camerupt’s viability against RSE major battles, and the irony is that Camerupt performs better against RSE Elite Four than some of the Pokémon in B tier as well.

Don’t want to repeat myself too much, as it’s clear you’re not going to change your mind.

 

[sumwun]

Absol shot up from D tier to B tier within a few months, and I can’t think of a good reason as to why, outside of the fact that many people started advocating for it, which created a snowball effect.

You have read the posts leading up to Absol's rise, right? Why don't you think any of them are good reasons?

You are severely underrating Camerupt’s viability against RSE major battles, and the irony is that Camerupt performs better against RSE Elite Four than some of the Pokémon in B tier as well.

Can you explain this a bit better? Which B tier Pokemon? Why is Camerupt better than them?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Of course standards are much different than 2 years ago. However, the OP of this thread, as of a year ago, had Numel in B tier. Numel was dropped to C tier and he even admitted on page 18 that he DISAGREED with it but didn’t care because nobody was actively trying to make an argument against dropping it. As for D tier, sumwun tried to make a case for it but OP chose to not even give a response, which tells me that OP dos not agree with such a decision either.

So then now is your time to make a case for things to be otherwise. Currently you have me disagreeing with you that it should rise. I say that it should be D or C tier. The burden falls on you to make a compelling argument that things should be different.

Also, i am not just appealing to authority here. EQ is an incredibly diverse attack in in-game Gen 3, not to mention that it’s STAB, coming off 100 base ATT, and Numel does not require a TM to learn the move.

This is all well and good but is not sufficient in its own right to justify a ranking. Whiscash also learns Earthquake by level up and it justifies B by virtue of maintaining both a consistent power output and through its above average bulk, allowing it to tank against several major battles and achieve individual victories in this way i.e. vs Juan. Earthquake alone is not sufficient to justify a ranking, what value does Camerupt bring that makes it so worthy of being considered better than its compatriots?

Absol shot up from D tier to B tier within a few months, and I can’t think of a good reason as to why, outside of the fact that many people started advocating for it, which created a snowball effect.

How exactly do you expect something to rise or drop unless someone advocates for it?

I ran Absol and documented my work showing that a Shadow Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Slash set performed excellently against numerous major battles including Winona, Tate and Liza, and Phoebe, among others. I argued that it was misranked in D tier and should be B, it was cautiously raised to C tier. Following from my testing, other people then tested it themselves and posted their own experiences with varying Absol sets including Swords Dance and Calm Mind, these people validated the initial nomination to B tier. Absol was raised as a result.

By comparison you're arguing Camerupt for a rise but not providing compelling evidence in its favor. What's more, you're acting very aggrieved that people don't accept these uncompelling arguments at face value. This is not how one should go about trying to effect change in the rankings.

You are severely underrating Camerupt’s viability against RSE major battles, and the irony is that Camerupt performs better against RSE Elite Four than some of the Pokémon in B tier as well.

Don't just say this, show this. I've stated the points where I see Camerupt falling short, show me that I'm wrong, show me where it does well in the major battles.



You may be unfamiliar with how things work around here, you don't get to just come in and claim that your word is law, you don't get to say that other people's methods are invalid because it makes yours look worse, you have to show your work if you want people to take you seriously.




edit: Now that I think about it I actually remember you from the ADV Viability Rankings. You acted the same way there as you are now, pushing the idea that Camerupt wasn't getting the justice it was due and decrying anyone who called you out for presenting insubstantiated opinions. I don't know what axe you have to grind or what incentive drives you to champion Camerupt but this is not the place for it.


edit2:

Don’t want to repeat myself too much, as it’s clear you’re not going to change your mind.

Don't be so hasty to judgement. I've already provided you evidence that I can and do in fact change my mind, such as I did with Breloom. If your arguments are strong enough their strength will convince me to think otherwise in their own right. Refusing to engage serves no such purpose.

 

[Merritt]

Theasiancp3
Before I do shifts, I do at least one last run with each of the nominated mons (this is part of why it can take a while). In cases where there's a general consensus on the movement then I'll at most make a post explaining my misgivings, if any, but will move the Pokemon. For most of the others it's a final check to see if my experiences remotely match up to those provided by the nominator, and if it's close enough and they're not a lone voice in the wind then it'll move.

I had to dig deep to find my notes from almost a year ago on the shift where Numel dropped. Here's the notes from 2018.

Hide

L14 lax nature

maxie was bad should have given more levels. should probably run in ruby too, flannery seems way better there but good enough. norman is dicks (evolution too high to reasonably get) numel started sucking on 119 until evo took too many hits and can't do damage in rain. rock slide beat winona p well but did take some healing. rain's still awful but eq came at a good time for maxie2 flamethrower and eq are doing a ton of work.

don't even bother with water routes camel sometimes fails the run check and that's awful but it's not incapable of training here if grding is needed. tate and liza seem worse than I remember camerupt got taken out t2 because it ate eq, might be rng reliant to be good here. archie went well his shark's bad so even slightly underleveled camel went okish.

no point in bothering with juan. camel's underleveled going into vr did a bit of grinding on trainers eruption kinda sucks keep overheat>erupt. did well against sidney. chugged potions vs phoebe but good. full restores got camerupt through sealeo and glalie1 glalie2 went boom. might actually be better here than in ruby because seals don't have surf. drake was bad.

comparison to ruby - almost definitely better flannery, probably a worse glacia? cant imagine living vs surf sealeo. steven vs wallace is obvious, but not a big diff overall definitely not enough to split. overall is on the line between b and c, if sumwun is only person nomming then reject

The nomination got secondary support from Punchshroom which I have to assume is why I went through with it. I didn't object in particular to C rank at the time, and with the continued refinement of the tier list over the course of the last year I now believe that Numel absolutely does not belong among the other B rank Pokemon.

 

[TheGamer7777]

Any poke that learns a boosting move already has a great shot at success, but Swords Dance combined with Absol's good attack and enough speed to sweep most major battles and I think its pretty easy to see why its a good Poke IMO.
(Don't take this out of context btw, a boosting move isn't useful if the Poke doesn't have the stats to use it or other reasons like movepool. That said there is a reason many pokes with access to these powerful moves are in the higher tiers.)

 

[sumwun]

Now that we're on this topic, why is Numel better than Torkoal? Numel gets ground STAB, but that's only good against Flannery (which Torkoal beats just as easily with curse and body slam) and no Elite 4 members.

 

[Merritt]

Now that we're on this topic, why is Numel better than Torkoal? Numel gets ground STAB, but that's only good against Flannery (which Torkoal beats just as easily with curse and body slam) and no Elite 4 members.

Numel is weaker but Camerupt is significantly stronger and can actually outspeed things on occasion. Torkoal is never outspeeding anything. Camerupt is significantly better against basically the entirety of lategame due to a much better movepool and stats while Torkoal has an only slightly better performance early.

Torkoal is absolutely worse than Numel longterm.

 

[Theasiancp3]

Now that we're on this topic, why is Numel better than Torkoal? Numel gets ground STAB, but that's only good against Flannery (which Torkoal beats just as easily with curse and body slam) and no Elite 4 members.

At this point, I can only assume you are just a hater.

100/105 ATT/SPA is a billion times better than fucking Torkoal. Not to mention that Camerupt gets access to level up rock slide and EQ, and you’re still trying to argue

You clearly never used Numel in any sort of serious run through. The ONE time you did, everyone called you out because there was signifcant evidence that you just favored Grumpig the entire run to make it look good, while trying to shit on Camerupt. When everyone had Camerupt as a B tier Pokemon last year, you were the one who tried to lie and claim it had a bad movepool, before OP called you out on that too

Why are you even trying? No, Camerupt is a billion times better than Torkoal. You’ve obviously never used one.

Torkoals horrible attacking stats makes Camerupt look like Mega rayquaza. Like it’s literally not even something worth bringing up. Please stop trying to troll and spew shit when you’ve clearly never used one in an unbiased way

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Tate and Liza

(39): Actually does quite well, Psychic doesn't get prioritized against Heracross so Xatu will typically lead Calm Mind and Claydol will spam Earthquake which allows you to consistently set up a clean 2HKO on Xatu with Rock Tomb. You can sometimes get a second kill as well if Lunatone comes out and it targets your partner first. Not too shabby.

(41): Fun fact, Claydol can use Earthquake even against a board of Ninjask/Weezing/Xatu. I suspect it doesn't always check that Levitate is the ability and only sees the Poison typing. Pretty mediocre on the whole as you might expect, relegated to a minor support role. Can spread Toxic against Claydol and the rocks or show decent partner kill equity against Xatu with Thunderbolt or Sludge Bomb, but doesn't hit very hard in this matchup otherwise and will die quickly.

(41): Doesn't do anything too incredible, the low special attack relative to other Water types means it doesn't contribute quite as much as you'd hope. What it does have however is a strong Double-Edge that can reliably partner kill Xatu and then use Surf to chip down the enemy while a partner takes the big hits. Decent support option.

(42): Literally a weaker Azumarill. Fulfills the exact same role, Surf chipping and STAB Strength chipping, just slightly weaker at it.

(41): Does really really really well as a lead. Gets a guaranteed free Swords Dance turn 1 and then OHKOs something every turn (Claydol can live but your partner typically chips it t1 anyway since you usually go for the t2 Xatu OHKO). Only Solrock can meaningfully hit it which makes it less reliable coming in mid-battle but if it has +2 to start with Solrock is killed outright. Phenomenal job.

(41): Keep it away from Claydol and it does pretty dang good. Clean t1 OHKO against Xatu, clean 2HKOs against the rocks with Thunderbolt or rolls for flinchhax, can always live one hit from not-Earthquake. Solid standalone and in a partnership.



Juan

(42): Goes +1 on Luvdisc then KOs because Attract is annoying, goes +4 on the incoming Whiscash and clean sweeps. Can just go +4 on Luvdisc if you're female. Kingdra Ice Beam is only a bare 3HKO.

(43): Does 90% with either Sludge Bomb or Tbolt to Luvdisc with poison making it an OHKO if you roll it, beats Whiscash with Toxic+Sludge Bomb over four turns, 3HKOs Kingdra with Sludge Bomb but gets 3HKOed in return by Ice Beam so requires it to decide to Rest and to have fortunate rolls to hit through evasion, easily 2HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt. A bit better than I expected, Whiscash can be problematic and Kingdra is usually a loss but a competent performance on the whole.

(42): 2HKOs Luvdisc with Brick Break while Doble-Edge is a roll to O/2HKO, Whiscash needs to be finessed as D-E recoil plus Earthquake poses problems, Sealeo is 2HKOed by Brick Break as is Crawdaunt, 3HKOs Kingdra with Double-Edge but can run into problems with Double Team as you get Rest looped if you don't hit three consecutively. A mixed bag as well, needs some potion support to get through anything and can run into issues with an aggressively Whiscash.

(43): 2HKOs Luvdisc, 3HKOs Whiscash with Strength, 3HKOs Sealeo, 3HKOs Crawdaunt but fears Guillotine, but only 4HKOs and thus loses to Kingdra. Of note is that Linoone is weirdly bulky, it needs several potions to take out the four members but it's able to 1v1 everything including the free attack for the opponent. Nothing 2HKOs and only the strongest attacks 3HKO.

(42): Mixed bag. Gets to set up to +6 against Luvdisc because Water Pulse doesn't 3HKO even with a crit but Sweet Kiss confusion is a problem, can OHKO Luvdisc at +2 and tank a Water Pulse+Sealeo Aurora Beam to beat Sealeo too but then falls to Kingdra, and can't OHKO Kingdra at +6 anyway, but will get through Crawdaunt and Whiscash if they show.

(42): OHKOs Luvdisc, Sealeo, and Crawdaunt, can't fight Whiscash, should beat Kingdra because Thunderbolt is a clean 3HKO but gets aggressively bullshitted by multiple misses in a row off a single Double Team fucking haxer bullshit >:[


Linoone Rare Candy Pickup Counter: 2


Sidney

(47): Bulk Up twice, miss a bunch, sweep. Bitch pls.

(47): 3HKOs Mightyena and is 4HKOed in return by Crunch, just misses the OHKO on Shiftry at +0 unless you roll poison but you can also lose this with Swagger rolls+Extrasensory, OHKOs Cacturne, outsped and 2HKOed by Crawdaunt while not OHKOing with Thunderbolt, 3HKOs Absol after Sitrus while 5HKOed by Rock Slide. Fairly decent overall.

(47): 3HKOs Absol but takes hits, loses to Cacturne, 2HKOs Shiftry, 2HKOs Crawdaunt, 2HKOs. Needs a potion but otherwise works as a bulky attacker.

(47): 3HKOs Mightyena with Surf, loses to Shiftry because it misses a lot and Swagger and Ice Beam only 3HKOs, will 3HKO Absol after Sitrus, 2HKOs Cacturne, loses to SD Crawdaunt. Mediocre.

(47): SD three times, tank two attacks and/or dodge a Roar, clean sweep. Great job buddy!

(47): 2HKOs Mightyena, goes 1 for 1 with eitehr Cacturne or Shiftry, 2HKOs Absol, OHKOs Crawdaunt. Decently strong.



Phoebe

(47): Bulk Up twice, switch because Curse is a dick, switch back in, Bulk Up twice, kill Dusclops with Earthquake, OHKO both Banette's, get 1 more Bulk Up and OHKO other Sableye and Dusclops. Heracross is pretty damn good!

(47): 1v1s Dusclops 1 with Toxic, loses to Banette 2 via Psychic, loses to Dusclops 2 1v1 even with Toxic, loses the damage race to Banette 1, and then loses to Sableye cause it doesn't hit hard enough to beat it quickly enough while it Double Teams and then kills you with Night Shade. Weezing has continued to be a disappointment.

(47): Cannot remotely hit either Dusclops hard enough to do more than 1v1 one of them if you're lucky, the first one literally just Pressure pp stalls you. Can't hit anything else hard at all either. Azumarill continues to have weak-as-shit STABs.

(47): You can beat one thing 1v1 but nothing more.

(47): Swords Dance for free, Swords Dance again, if Curse reset, if Confuse Ray heal, if Shadow Punch or Protect, clean sweep. Ninjask is fun!

(47): Clean 3HKO on Dusclops 1, avoid Earthquake from Dusclops 2, 2HKOs Banette 1, 2HKOs Sableye, 2HKOs Banette 2. Manectric continues to be stronk.



Glacia

(47): Use 0-2 Bulk Ups, sweep. This probably should be A tier at this point it's been a beast, only thing Breloom and Blaziken have over it is availability and they're on the A/S borderline.

(47): Only able to 3HKO Sealeo 1, rolls to 2HKO Glalie 1 but gets outsped and 3HKOed back if it fails, Sealeo 2 and Glalie 2 both outspeed and 2HKO.

(47): 2HKO both Sealeo with Brick Break, 2HKO both Glalie but die to an Explosion trade from G2, requires a Potion for this, 3HKOs Walrein if you dodge Sheer Cold. Since Juan Azu has been effectively a fighting type Pokemon and sucked when its tried to do anything else.

(47): I'm getting really bored of using this. Can beat Sealeo 1 if it doesn't get fully paralyzed and can beat any of the next three with Potion support but can't 1v1 anything comfortably. Weak Strengths have stopped cutting it a long time ago.

(47): Beats Sealeo 1 and does half to Glalie 2! Sealeo 1 goes for Ice Ball while you SD but can't 2HKO at the first level so you Dig to avoid second level and then finish it with Aerial Ace. Getting a kill as a frail flying type is a nice feather in the cap.

(48): Just misses the OHKO aainst Sealeo 1, burns a Hyper Potion against Hail, misses the 2HKO against Glalie's and gets 2Hkoed back by Ice Beams, Sealeo 2 same as Sealeo 1, 2HKOs Walrein through Sitrus while avoiding an OHKO. Good doggy.



Can't get the rest of this done tonight, so briefly:

- Heracross should rise to A (rise). Ridiculous mon, almost nothing can actually hit it before dying and it shrugs off anything that does short of Psychics. Sweeps effortlessly. Won't do so against Drake (though it could with X Speeds) or Wallace, doesn't affect its ranking at all.
- Manectric is a strong B. The faster frailer Magneton, very solid at all phases of the game.
- Ninjask is a strong D (rise) despite the tedium of training it in the first place. Fast Swords Dance sweeper is an excellent niche.
- Weezing is a blah D, probably worse than Swalot, much worse than Muk. Looks flashy but underperforms at all stages.
- Azumarill is a lower end B tier, its power falls off eventually but its a very solid early/mid choice and the HM compression is great.
- Linoone is literally Azumarill but worse. C tier is fair.

Outstanding nominations compilation:

- Heracross rise to A
- Nincada rise to D
- Treecko drop to B
- Spoink drop to D
- Skitty rise to E
- Zubat drop to D
- Wingull drop to C

 

[TheGamer7777]

Sidney

(47): Bulk Up twice, miss a bunch, sweep. Bitch pls.

My life lol. Love the sprites btw <3. Nice analysis.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Drake

(48): Bulk Up four times against two Protects and OHKO Shelgon, eat Flamethrower from Flygon and OHKO it, potion against Altaria and take Aerial Ace for about a third and then OHKO with Rock Tomb, Salamence comes in and you are not at full health after two Aerial Aces so you cannot tank its Flamethrower like you normally could. If at boosted speed, continue to sweep. Kingdra obviously dies to boosted Brick Break while not doing much back. 3/5 cleanly killed, clean sweep with X Speeds, Heracross continues to show dominance.

(47): Loses to Shelgon Double-Edge in a damage race, gets dumpstered by Flygon, gets dumpstered by Salamence, 3HKOs Kingdra with Double-Edge without triggering a potion but is likely to require a Potion depending on how frequently it Body Slams, trades exactly evenly with Altaria in a Double-Edge race. Bad performance.

(47): Cannot beat Shelgon, 3HKOs Kingdra but is 2HKOed back, 3HKOs Salamence but is 2HKOed back, lolFlygon, 3HKOs Altaria but is outsped and 2HKOd by Double-Edge but you have 37% to paralyze it before it can kill you. Bad performance.

(47): Goes evenly on damage race with Shelgon and is slightly favoured due to Sludge Bomb poison rolls, same situation for Altaria, gets 2HKOed by Kingdra, is only 4HKOed by Flygon and so can win via Toxic with Potion support, cleanly 2HKOed by Salamence. Mediocre performance.

(47): Rolls to 2HKO Shelgon and is not 2HKOed in return, is 2HKOed by Flygon before it can 2HKO back, is 2HKOed by Salamence and cannot 2HKO back after Sitrus, loses outright to Kingdra, just misses the 2HKO on Altaria but can live a +2 Double-Edge and should win after recoil as a result. Bad performance.

(48): Requires a combination of any two Rock Tomb misses or Protect uses to get to +6 against Rock Tomb Shelgon at which point it OHKOs Shelgon and Flygon before falling to 5% health Altaria. This took roughly twenty trials to accomplish. Would not be able to KO Salamence, would roll to KO Kingdra. No utility in other matchups.



Wallace

(49): With Potion support (3) can go max Bulk Ups on Wailord by using Brick Break twice at the start to weaken Water Spout, Blizzard will not 2HKO. At +6 it OHKOs Wailord, OHKOs Whiscash, easily tanks Tentacruel's Hydro Pump and OHKOs will Earthquake, OHKOs Ludicolo, easily tanks Gyarados's Surf and OHKOs with Rock Tomb, and then either OHKOs Milotic immediately if above 50% HP or uses Potions until it gets a favourable damage roll. I honestly didn't expect this, thought the Hydro Pump at least would be able to OHKO Hera but only it and Milotic could even do half. What an absolute monster. All at only level 50 too.

(47): Loses the Double-Edge war to Wailord (unless Quick Claw cheeses lol), loses cleanly to Whiscash, loses cleanly to Gyarados, can't touch Milotic, can never beat Leech Seed+Evasion from Ludicolo, 3HKOs Tentacruel but is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb back.

(47): Easy 2HKO vs Wailord, Whiscash is a nope, outspeeds and OHKOs Gyarados, outspeeds and 2HKOs Tentacruel - this one used Toxic t1 which suggests it might not have been able to OHKO with Hydro Pump but I'm uncertain, 3HKOs Ludicolo but is 2HKOed back, 3HKOs Milotic but is 2HKOed back. Good stuff given the 10 level disadvantage.

(47): Loses to everything, can 2HKO Gyarados and Ludicolo with Thunderbolt and Sludge Bomb respectively but gets 1 or 2HKOed by everything back so.

(47): It's Linoone, its way past the point of being able to do anything. Loses terribl to everything.

(48): Cannot set up on Wailord but can set up SD against an Amnesia using Whiscash as well as go to +2 or more depending on Double Teams vs Ludicolo, +6 will 2HKO each of Whiscash, Wailord, Milotic, and Gyarados and will OHKO Tentacruel and Ludicolo (+2 will do for this). Best case scenario as a result is getting one kill and most of the health of a second.



Post-Game Team Summary

lv 50, Swarm, Rash
159 / 145 / 98 / 69 / 107 / 102
Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Tomb, Bulk Up

Comments: Let's recap. Cleanly sweeps the Flying Gym at a type disadvantage. Contributes well against the Psychic Gym at a type disadvantage in a double battle. Cleanly sweeps Juan. Cleanly sweeps Sidney. Sweeps Phoebe with minimal hassle. Cleanly sweeps Glacia. Sweeps 60% of Drake with one potion, cleanly sweeps if X Speeds are used. Sweeps Wallace with Potion support at a level disadvantage.

What else is there to say? This thing was an absolute buzzsaw and was disgustingly effective. It's tanking Milotic Surfs 8 levels below with a SDef reducing nature. It's tearing through the majority of the game on minimal boosts. It required zero training window as it swept Winona barely a few levels above catching. It's moveset came prepackaged via starting moves and TMs. You could not ask for a more efficient Pokemon, and almost nothing is more effective. The only reason this isn't S tier is because of its late availability. Clearly and definitively the best Fighting-type in the game over and above Breloom and Blaziken, and easily and obviously the absolute top of A tier.


lv 47, Static, Gentle
144 / 97 / 67 / 116 / 79 / 128
Thunderbolt, Bite, Return, Thunder Wave

Comments: Starts slowly as an Electrike until it picks up Spark, though it can function decently with Howl+Quick Attack as evidenced vs Wattson. Picks up after it evolves with an okay performance against Flannery and a good one against Norman. Comes into its own at the mid-game, doing great against Winona, well against T+L, great against Juan, and fairly well against each of Sidney, Phoebe, and Glacia. Falls short against Drake, but finishes well against Wallace.

Manectric is consistently effective throughout the game. It is self-sufficient for training purposes against the numerous flying and water-type Pokemon and provides consistent value against all of the major boss battles, even in poor matchups. It is never an exceptionally dominating force, but never fails to be a solid choice. Happily comfortable in B tier.


lv 48, Speed Boost, Lax, Soft Sand
142 / 111 / 69 / 64 / 57 / 182
Aerial Ace, Shadow Ball, Dig, Swords Dance

Comments: Ninjask has an odd path starting as a slow-leveling bulky attacker before evolving into a frail Swords Dance sweeper. Nincada's typing allows it to contribute well in secondary roles against Roxanne and Brawly, as well as against Wattson if it remains unevolved. As a Ninjask it finds that it is capable of sweeping or otherwise positively contributing against even unfavorable matchups if it can manage the circumstance accordingly, as with matchups against Flannery and Norman. Later in the game, is able to sweep Winona, sweep much of T+L, sweep Sidney, and sweep Phoebe, with a decent performance against Juan, though it can offer only minor efforts against the last three Elite Four.

Ninjask ends up performing well above its current E tier placing. It does not require assistance to sweep though many of its matchups though some middling matchups can rely on variance, and after evolution is consistently strong enough to be effective even without setup at level parity or superiority. As an attacker it is superior to Poochyena and tracks favorably to the lower ends of C tier - however the general ineffectiveness of Nincada, significant time investment to train it, and end-game frailty of Ninjask are more than enough to downgrade it. As a result, Nincada (Ninjask) should be confidently raised to D tier.


lv 47, Gentle, Huge Power, Quick Claw
167 / 68 / 77 / 64 / 100 / 56
Double-Edge, Waterfall (Surf), Brick Break, Dive (Rollout)

Comments: Azumarill shows a very distinct curve of an early peak at the time of evolution followed by a slow but consistent drop off into mediocrity by the end of the game. It performs effectively against all of the early gyms by virtue of its relative bulk and the powerful force of Rollout, and although it begins to drop off around Norman it is still able to show well against both with and Winona, whom Azumarill is able to sweep. The slow down starts to show as of Tate and Liza however as its power level begins to quickly fall off, no longer able to OHKO enemies. Is capable of fighting Sidney but for the rest of the game otherwise is only able to play a bit role, it can tank enemies with Potion support but cannot damage them effectively in a fast enough time.

Combat abilities probably track more closely to a C tier, comparable to something like Machoke or Golem. It isn't good enough long enough to be a true B tier. Of course, the kicker that cements it as a B is the significant HM role compression, particularly and especially covering the difficult Waterfall and Dive in addition to the more widespread Rock Smash, Strength, and Surf. Very little to dispute on this one, it's capable enough on its own but the HM compression pushes it up a level.


lv 47, Brave, Pickup
152 / 89 / 78 / 67 / 68 / 101
Strength, Surf, Ice Beam, Rock Smash

Comments: Take literally everything said about Azumarill and make it a bit worse. Clearly on the lower end of D tier in pure combat ability but HM compression and Pickup are more than sufficient to push it up into C tier.


lv 47, Levitate, Sassy
139 / 107 / 123 / 93 / 89 / 62
Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Toxic

Comments: Such a disappointment. Excellent nature, excellent flashy movepool, but awful performance.
Has a great matchup vs Winona, a decent one vs Juan, and a decent one vs Sidney, but rolls between mediocre to terrible against every other major battle. Poison/Fire/Electric turns out to be considerably worse coverage than it appears, missing out on hitting most Rock types, the common Numel family, the Barboach family, and Flygon for neutral damage, as well as struggling with any Poison, Ground, or Ghost type of moderate bulk. Has some struggles being self-sufficient as well, the lack of power relative to Grimer is very noticeable as is the lack of bulk relative to Swalot. Clearly the worst of the three. Based on its performance in major battles there is a reasonable argument that it might not even be better than Seviper and should fall to E as the worst Poison type. Should stay D for now, but its on the lower borderline and should fall if Seviper were to prove to be better.



Outstanding nominations:

- Heracross rise to A
- Nincada rise to D

- Treecko drop to B
- Spoink drop to D
- Skitty rise to E

- Zubat drop to D
- Wingull drop to C

 

[Punchshroom]

Merritt just wanted to let you know you referenced my old write-ups instead of my updated ones:

write-ups

pikachu

Name: Pikachu
Availability: Pikachu can be found in the southern areas of the Safari Zone with a 15% encounter rate.
Stats: High Speed but lackluster stats everywhere else. Offenses improve upon evolution or equipping the Light Ball item, though it is very rare.
Typing: Electric typing has great use against Winona, the upcoming water routes, and Water-type bosses such as Juan, Wallace, and Glacia.
Movepool: Level 25 Pikachus come with Thunder Wave and learn Thunderbolt in 1 level, whereas Level 27 Pikachus already come with Thunderbolt, but needs to be reteached Thunder Wave, so take your pick on which is more valuable for you. As an Electric-type, Pikachu's movepool is pretty sparse, but it does get Brick Break and Light Screen to improve its coverage and utility, respectively. Because Pikachu doesn't need anything from its level-up movepool that can't be taught by TM, it is advised to evolve it immediately after learning Thunderbolt.
Major Battles: A quick backtrack lets Raichu grind for experience against Winona's Gym and take out everything except for Winona's Altaria. Raichu can fry most of the Water-types of Juan, Wallace, and Glacia and use Light Screen to help buffer hits better. Thunder Wave can help to neuter Drake's Salamence, while Brick Break has some mild use against Glacia's Light Screen Glalie as well as Sidney in general.
Additional Comments: While Pikachu does not need the Thunderbolt TM, it is still necessary to travel through New Mauville to acquire the Thunderstone, unless you're lucky enough to catch a Pikachu holding a Light Ball, though it is only a 5% chance. One could also manipulate Pikachu's nature with the Pokeblock feeder, with dry berries increasing the likelihood of +SpA natures and sweet berries making +Spe natured Pikachus more common.

shroomish

Name: Shroomish
Availability: Shroomish can be found in Petalburg Woods with a 15% encounter rate.
Stats: Good bulk with low offenses and Speed. Upon evolution, its Attack stat skyrockets to become obscenely high, especially at such an early point in the game.
Typing: Grass typing is useful for the earlier portions of the game due to its advantage against Rock and Electric. Upon gaining the Fighting type upon evolution, it gains additional favorable matchups against Wattson, Norman, Sidney, Glacia, and Steven, though it dislikes the new Psychic weakness against Tate & Liza. Note that Breloom does not rely on Grass-type moves for offense.
Movepool: Shroomish relies on disruptive moves such as Stun Spore, Leech Seed, and Mega Drain to take full advantage of its bulk and make up for its lack of power. Once it evolves, it changes gears to become an attacking powerhouse, crushing foes with moves like Bulk Up, Mach Punch, Rock Tomb, Silk Scarf-boosted Headbutt / Strength, Sludge Bomb, and Sky Uppercut, most of which are very powerful attacks for when they are learned compared to most Pokemon.
Major Battles: Shroomish can solo Roxanne while being able to hinder Brawly with Leech Seed. Breloom can smash Wattson, Archie, and Sidney pretty easily as well as wipe out most of Norman's trainers, while Norman and even Winona can be swept through with enough Bulk Ups and an X Speed for good measure (note: do not set up against Winona's lead Swellow; her Pelipper or lead Swablu in Emerald are better setup targets). It loses to Flannery, Tate&Liza, and Phoebe, but otherwise its immense power makes it a threat against nearly any opponent it fights, especially with the threat of Bulk Up + X-Speed sweeps.
Additional Comments: Breloom's usefulness against Glacia is heavily decided on whether Breloom is able to outspeed her Pokemon, so it should avoid having a speed-hindering nature and be fed any Carbos you can find.

absol

Name: Absol
Availability: Absol can be found in Route 120 with a 8% encounter rate.
Stats: Glass cannon; very high Attack stat with decent Speed and Special Attack, but poor defenses.
Typing: Dark typing is useful for its Psychic immunity and Ghost resistance, but does not serve Absol very well in the attacking department at all.
Movepool: Absol is TM-reliant, but fortunately it has a very diverse movepool that can easily be tailored to your needs. It has Swords Dance to bolster moves such as Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace, and Return to extremely powerful levels, or it can take advantage of the coverage granted by Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower, which it can further augment with Calm Mind if it wants.
Major Battles: Absol technically has the movepool to contribute in nearly any major matchup, be it breaking teams with Swords Dance-boosted Shadow Ball, picking off specific targets with special attacks, or even potentially sweeping with Calm Mind. Do note that Absol's fraility and average Speed can make clean sweeps rather difficult, but Absol does fairly well in 1v1 battles due to its power or coverage, and can wipe out Tate&Liza, Steven, and Phoebe particularly easily.

meditite

Name: Meditite
Availability: Meditite can be found in the exterior of Mt. Pyre with a 30% encounter rate.
Stats: Mediocre to average stats but Pure Power is an absolute boon, doubling its Attack stat to turn it into a powerhouse.
Typing: Meditite will primarily use its Fighting-type for its offense. Its Psychic-typing makes it more suitable to fighting Tate&Liza, but gives it shakier Sidney and Phoebe matchups.
Movepool: Meditite's only form of offense when caught is Hidden Power, which is highly unlikely to be useful. This means that Meditite will have to rely on TMs such as Shadow Ball and Strength to fight on its own. Hi Jump Kick arrives at level 32 which shouldn't be far if you've caught the highest leveled Meditite, though that should be replaced by the more reliable Brick Break TM once you obtain it in Sootopolis.
Major Battles: Medicham's Shadow Ball rips through Tate&Liza, while a couple of Bulk Ups can allow Medicham to sweep through Wallace, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, and even possibly Steven, though an X Speed and Hyper Potion/Full Restore may be necessary to facilitate a clean sweep. Medicham is not expected to set up very comfortably against Phoebe, but Spell Tag-boosted Shadow Ball can heavily dent her Banettes so it can still put in work.
Additional Comments: Meditite takes a painful while to evolve, so be ready to put up with Meditite's horrific stats for the lategame.

taillow

Name: Taillow
Availability: Taillow can be found in Route 104 with a 10% encounter rate.
Stats: Terrific Speed and decent Attack, but bad defenses.
Typing: Normal/Flying typing gives access to good STABs early on, though that typing's usefulness will wane as the game progresses.
Movepool: Taillow is never out of reach of high powered STAB moves, with a potent early-game level-up movepool and taught moves such as Secret Power, Fly, Return, and Hyper Beam. However, Taillow doesn't have any other worthwhile attacking options.
Major Battles: Taillow's speed and strength lets it easily prey on route trainers, but outside of Brawly, Taillow doesn't actually excel in any important battles. Taillow can usually pick off most weaker Pokemon and can generally contribute in the majority of major fights thanks to its Speed and decently strong Silk Scarf-boosted attacks, but is otherwise usually heavily outmatched by the boss's ace Pokemon, especially by lategame, so it must pick its matchups carefully lest it get taken out without KOing anything.
Additional Comments: Swellow should be given the Return TM from returning the Meteorite as soon as possible to prevent its offense from falling off.

heracross

Heracross
Availability: Heracross can be found in the Safari Zone northeast area with a 5% encounter rate.
Stats: Heracross's amazing physical Attack and good Speed are perfect for quickly defeating regular trainers, and its decent bulk means you don't have to heal it very often.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type, but its weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are rather common toward the lategame. The Bug type is a hindrance as it makes Heracross weaker to Fire and Flying.
Movepool: Heracross comes already knowing Brick Break and can immediately learn Strength and Bulk Up. It usually only needs to spam Brick Break, but you can teach Heracross Earthquake to be able to touch Ghost-types. One is likely to have beaten the game before Heracross reaches level 53, so aiming for Megahorn is ill-advised.
Major Battles: Heracross can sweep Juan, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, Steven, and Wallace after a few Bulk Ups and an X Speed if necessary; certain lead Pokemon such as Juan/Wallace's Sweet Kiss Luvdisc, Sidney's Sand-Attack Mightyena, and Steven's Aerial Ace Skarmory are not ideal to set up against on the first turn, but they have other Pokemon that are much easier for Heracross to start Bulking Up on. Heracross only does not fare well against Tate&Liza, as Heracross can still Bulk Up on Winona's Pelipper/Swablu and Phoebe's Sableye and sweep their team.
Additional Comments: You can manipulate Heracross's nature by inserting Pokeblocks into Pokeblock feeders. Pokeblocks made of Leppa Berries increase the chance of +Physical Attack natures, while those made from Pecha Berries increase the likelihood of +Speed natures. Also, Guts is the slightly better ability.

makuhita

Makuhita
Availability: Makuhita can be found in the ground floor of Granite Cave with a 50% encounter rate at levels 6-10, or the first floor basement of Granite Cave with a 10% encounter rate at levels 10-11.
Stats: Enormous HP lets Hariyama tank stuff and use lots of Bulk Ups, and strong Physical Attack after a rather early evolution lets it 1v1 most things with or without Bulk Up. However, low defenses and Speed means it takes annoying status moves and consumes lots of potions when you fight regular trainers.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type throughout the game. The Psychic weakness occasionally hinders Hariyama.
Movepool: Makuhita learns Vital Throw at level 13, which is a really powerful attack at this point in the game and serves Hariyama well for much of it. Hariyama can learn Bulk Up, which it makes good use of easily due to its high HP. Much later, Hariyama can learn the slightly higher PP and non-negative priority Brick Break. Hariyama's movepool outside of Fighting-type attacks is really shallow, so moves such as Dig, Strength, or Earthquake provide much needed additional coverage against opponents that resist Fighting.
Major Battles: The Brawly matchup is unfavorable since his Makuhita is likely stronger and has Bulk Up. From here on, Hariyama can just brute force its way through most major battles with Bulk Ups, albeit with hefty Potion support. Consequently, Tate and Liza and the champion are the only really difficult fights. Of course, some opponents (namely Winona, Phoebe, and Drake) require more Bulk Ups than others.
Additional Comments: Thick Fat is the better ability because it makes Flannery and Glacia much easier. Note that Hariyama will consume much of your Potion reserves due to its high HP, low initial bulk, bad Speed, and heavy use of setup.

zubat

Name: Zubat
Availability: Zubat can be found in the second floor basement of Granite Cave B2F with a 30% encounter rate.
Stats: Amazing Speed, good Attack and respectable bulk.
Typing: Typing grants many 4x resistances which help in the early game, but weaknesses to Psychic, Ice, and Rock become more pronounced towards the lategame.
Movepool: The Steel Wing TM is needed to let Zubat competently fight on its own until it learns Wing Attack, while the Sludge Bomb TM is mandatory to achieve maximum damage output. All other moves it learns are helpful but not necessary. Note that even with Steel Wing, Zubat struggles against Rock-types, and Crobat is incapable of touching Steel-types.
Major Battles: Zubat can take on Brawly (albeit not very quickly) and does decently at route sweeping, but otherwise has average to terrible matchups against all other bosses, usually faltering against their ace Pokemon, especially those that are resistant or immune to Sludge Bomb. Crobat's attacking potential will falter towards the lategame, so its role tends to be relegated to toss out fast and strong attacks that can beat weaker trainers or KO one/two of the boss's Pokemon, or potentially harassing tough opponents with its fast Confuse Ray.
Additional Comments: Zubat is also available at Meteor Falls up to a more manageable level 20 and at a much higher 80% encounter rate, but the drawback is being stuck with the mediocre Golbat stage for longer.

Anyway, here's a new one!

Name: Ralts
Availability: Ralts is found in Route 102 at a 4% encounter rate.
Stats: Rather poor to mediocre stats as Ralts and Kirlia, but Gardevoir has amazing Special Attack & Special Defense and sufficient Speed.
Typing: Psychic typing grants good neutral STAB coverage for much of the game, though Dark-types are a hassle in the early game. It can make use of its resistances against Brawly and Tate&Liza, but weaknesses to Sidney and Phoebe can prove annoying.
Movepool: Ralts first needs 2 levels to acquire Confusion to be able to fight on its own. As a Kirlia, it soon gains access to two of its most important moves, Calm Mind and Psychic, at ridiculously early levels, which tear down much of the game and are mostly all it needs. Kirlia can use the Shock Wave TM for additional coverage, which can then be upgraded to the Thunderbolt TM as Gardevoir. Double Team can possibly cheese through Ralts's few tough matchups.
Major Battles: Ralts can rely on Double Team to circumvent Roxanne's inaccurate attacks and can naturally take on all of Brawly's Pokemon, though an underleveled one might need help from Potions or smart timing of Growl to keep up with his Makuhita. Kirlia could use Calm Mind to stand up to Wattson, but a clean sweep is not easy given the number of Thunder Wave, Sonicboom, and Selfdestruct users on his team, though a Cheri Berry can help stave off paralysis if not temporarily. From here on out, Kirlia/Gardevoir should be able to set up Calm Minds against the bosses' lead Pokemon with ease to be able to wipe out their team with boosted Psychics and Thunderbolts, though it is to be expected that Kirlia/Gardevoir might need to be healed in the process. Gardevoir might also need some additional help or insurance against certain opponents, such as Double Team boosts or an X Defend/X Speed beforehand to avoid heavy retaliation from Norman's Slakings or Drake's strong Dragon-types, or berries to cure status such as Swagger, Sweet Kiss, and Toxic during setup. Phoebe can be an annoying matchup if Dusclops uses Curse before Gardevoir finishes Calm Minding (usually 3-4 times are needed for the clean sweep), but otherwise she can be dealt with as well.
Additional Comments: It is not recommended for Gardevoir to set up against the lead Mightyenas of Maxie, Archie, and Sidney despite them posing little offensive threat, as Gardevoir cannot prevent their attempts at using Roar, Scary Face, and Sand-Attack to disrupt Gardevoir's sweep. Set up on their other Pokemon instead.

 

[sumwun]

heracross

Heracross
Availability: Heracross can be found in the Safari Zone northeast area with a 5% encounter rate.
Stats: Heracross's amazing physical Attack and good Speed are perfect for quickly defeating regular trainers, and its decent bulk means you don't have to heal it very often.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type, but its weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are rather common toward the lategame. The Bug type is a hindrance as it makes Heracross weaker to Fire and Flying.
Movepool: Heracross comes already knowing Brick Break and can immediately learn Strength and Bulk Up. It usually only needs to spam Brick Break, but you can teach Heracross Earthquaketo be able to touch Ghost-types. One is likely to have beaten the game before Heracross reaches level 53, so aiming for Megahorn is ill-advised.
Major Battles: Heracross can sweep Juan, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, Steven, and Wallace after a few Bulk Ups and an X Speed if necessary; certain lead Pokemon such as Juan/Wallace's Sweet Kiss Luvdisc, Sidney's Sand-Attack Mightyena, and Steven's Aerial Ace Skarmory are not ideal to set up against on the first turn, but they have other Pokemon that are much easier for Heracross to start Bulking Up on. Heracross does not fare well against opponents such as Winona, Tate&Liza, and Phoebe, since all their Pokemon can target Heracross's weaknesses or just prove a pain to set up on in Phoebe's case.
Additional Comments: You can manipulate Heracross's nature by inserting Pokeblocks into Pokeblock feeders. Pokeblocks made of Leppa Berries increase the chance of +Physical Attack natures, while those made from Pecha Berries increase the likelihood of +Speed natures. Also, Guts is the slightly better ability.

Have you read this post, as well as Cloverleaf's previous 2 posts about Heracross? Also, there should be a space between "earthquake" and "to", and on Shroomish I think you should add Wallace/Juan to the list of gym leaders it smashes pretty easily.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Merritt just wanted to let you know you referenced my old write-ups instead of my updated ones:

write-ups

pikachu

Name: Pikachu
Availability: Pikachu can be found in the southern areas of the Safari Zone with a 15% encounter rate.
Stats: High Speed but lackluster stats everywhere else. Offenses improve upon evolution or equipping the Light Ball item, though it is very rare.
Typing: Electric typing has great use against Winona, the upcoming water routes, and Water-type bosses such as Juan, Wallace, and Glacia.
Movepool: Level 25 Pikachus come with Thunder Wave and learn Thunderbolt in 1 level, whereas Level 27 Pikachus already come with Thunderbolt, but needs to be reteached Thunder Wave, so take your pick on which is more valuable for you. As an Electric-type, Pikachu's movepool is pretty sparse, but it does get Brick Break and Light Screen to improve its coverage and utility, respectively. Because Pikachu doesn't need anything from its level-up movepool that can't be taught by TM, it is advised to evolve it immediately after learning Thunderbolt.
Major Battles: A quick backtrack lets Raichu grind for experience against Winona's Gym and take out everything except for Winona's Altaria. Raichu can fry most of the Water-types of Juan, Wallace, and Glacia and use Light Screen to help buffer hits better. Thunder Wave can help to neuter Drake's Salamence, while Brick Break has some mild use against Glacia's Light Screen Glalie as well as Sidney in general.
Additional Comments: While Pikachu does not need the Thunderbolt TM, it is still necessary to travel through New Mauville to acquire the Thunderstone, unless you're lucky enough to catch a Pikachu holding a Light Ball, though it is only a 5% chance. One could also manipulate Pikachu's nature with the Pokeblock feeder, with dry berries increasing the likelihood of +SpA natures and sweet berries making +Spe natured Pikachus more common.

shroomish

Name: Shroomish
Availability: Shroomish can be found in Petalburg Woods with a 15% encounter rate.
Stats: Good bulk with low offenses and Speed. Upon evolution, its Attack stat skyrockets to become obscenely high, especially at such an early point in the game.
Typing: Grass typing is useful for the earlier portions of the game due to its advantage against Rock and Electric. Upon gaining the Fighting type upon evolution, it gains additional favorable matchups against Norman, Sidney, Glacia, and Steven, though it dislikes the new Psychic weakness against Tate & Liza. Note that Breloom does not rely on Grass-type moves for offense.
Movepool: Shroomish relies on disruptive moves such as Stun Spore, Leech Seed, and Mega Drain to take full advantage of its bulk and make up for its lack of power. Once it evolves, it changes gears to become an attacking powerhouse, crushing foes with moves like Bulk Up, Mach Punch, Rock Tomb, Silk Scarf-boosted Headbutt / Strength, Sludge Bomb, and Sky Uppercut, most of which are very powerful attacks for when they are learned compared to most Pokemon.
Major Battles: Shroomish can solo Roxanne while being able to hinder Brawly with Leech Seed. Breloom can smash Wattson, Archie, and Sidney pretty easily as well as wipe out most of Norman's trainers, while Norman himself can be dealt with clever use of Bulk Up and / or Counter. It loses to Flannery, Winona, Tate&Liza, and Phoebe, but otherwise its immense power makes it a threat against nearly any opponent it fights, especially with the threat of Bulk Up + X-Speed sweeps.
Additional Comments: Breloom's usefulness against Glacia is heavily decided on whether Breloom is able to outspeed her Pokemon, so it should avoid having a speed-hindering nature and feed it any Carbos you can find.

absol

Name: Absol
Availability: Absol can be found in Route 120 with a 8% encounter rate.
Stats: Glass cannon; very high Attack stat with decent Speed and Special Attack, but poor defenses.
Typing: Dark typing is useful for its Psychic immunity and Ghost resistance, but does not serve Absol very well in the attacking department at all.
Movepool: Absol is TM-reliant, but fortunately it has a very diverse movepool that can easily be tailored to your needs. It has Swords Dance to bolster moves such as Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace, and Return to extremely powerful levels, or it can take advantage of the coverage granted by Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower, which it can further augment with Calm Mind if it wants.
Major Battles: Absol technically has the movepool to contribute in nearly any major matchup, be it breaking teams with Swords Dance-boosted Shadow Ball, picking off specific targets with special attacks, or even potentially sweeping with Calm Mind. Do note that Absol's fraility and average Speed can make clean sweeps rather difficult, but Absol does fairly well in 1v1 battles due to its power or coverage, and can wipe out Tate&Liza, Steven, and Phoebe particularly easily.

meditite

Name: Meditite
Availability: Meditite can be found in the exterior of Mt. Pyre with a 30% encounter rate.
Stats: Mediocre to average stats but Pure Power is an absolute boon, doubling its Attack stat to turn it into a powerhouse.
Typing: Meditite will primarily use its Fighting-type for its offense. Its Psychic-typing makes it more suitable to fighting Tate&Liza, but gives it shakier Sidney and Phoebe matchups.
Movepool: Meditite's only form of offense when caught is Hidden Power, which is highly unlikely to be useful. This means that Meditite will have to rely on TMs such as Shadow Ball and Strength to fight on its own. Hi Jump Kick arrives at level 32 which shouldn't be far if you've caught the highest leveled Meditite, though that should be replaced by the more reliable Brick Break TM once you obtain it in Sootopolis.
Major Battles: Medicham's Shadow Ball rips through Tate&Liza, while a couple of Bulk Ups can allow Medicham to sweep through Wallace, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, and even possibly Steven, though an X Speed and Hyper Potion/Full Restore may be necessary to facilitate a clean sweep. Medicham is not expected to set up very comfortably against Phoebe, but Spell Tag-boosted Shadow Ball can heavily dent her Banettes so it can still put in work.
Additional Comments: Meditite takes a painful while to evolve, so be ready to put up with Meditite's horrific stats for the lategame.

taillow

Name: Taillow
Availability: Taillow can be found in Route 104 with a 10% encounter rate.
Stats: Terrific Speed and decent Attack, but bad defenses.
Typing: Normal/Flying typing gives access to good STABs early on, though that typing's usefulness will wane as the game progresses.
Movepool: Taillow is never out of reach of high powered STAB moves, with a potent early-game level-up movepool and taught moves such as Secret Power, Fly, and Return. However, Taillow doesn't have any other worthwhile attacking options.
Major Battles: Taillow's speed and strength lets it easily prey on route trainers, but outside of Brawly, Taillow doesn't actually excel in any important battles. Taillow can usually pick off most weaker Pokemon and can generally contribute in the majority of major fights, but is otherwise usually heavily outmatched by the boss's ace Pokemon, so it must pick its matchups carefully lest it get taken out without KOing anything.
Additional Comments: Swellow should be given the Return TM from returning the Meteorite as soon as possible to prevent its offense from falling off.

heracross

Heracross
Availability: Heracross can be found in the Safari Zone northeast area with a 5% encounter rate.
Stats: Heracross's amazing physical Attack and good Speed are perfect for quickly defeating regular trainers, and its decent bulk means you don't have to heal it very often.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type, but its weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are rather common toward the lategame. The Bug type is a hindrance as it makes Heracross weaker to Fire and Flying.
Movepool: Heracross comes already knowing Brick Break and can immediately learn Strength and Bulk Up. It usually only needs to spam Brick Break, but you can teach Heracross Earthquaketo be able to touch Ghost-types. One is likely to have beaten the game before Heracross reaches level 53, so aiming for Megahorn is ill-advised.
Major Battles: Heracross can sweep Juan, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, Steven, and Wallace after a few Bulk Ups and an X Speed if necessary; certain lead Pokemon such as Juan/Wallace's Sweet Kiss Luvdisc, Sidney's Sand-Attack Mightyena, and Steven's Aerial Ace Skarmory are not ideal to set up against on the first turn, but they have other Pokemon that are much easier for Heracross to start Bulking Up on. Heracross does not fare well against opponents such as Winona, Tate&Liza, and Phoebe, since all their Pokemon can target Heracross's weaknesses or just prove a pain to set up on in Phoebe's case.
Additional Comments: You can manipulate Heracross's nature by inserting Pokeblocks into Pokeblock feeders. Pokeblocks made of Leppa Berries increase the chance of +Physical Attack natures, while those made from Pecha Berries increase the likelihood of +Speed natures. Also, Guts is the slightly better ability.

makuhita

Makuhita
Availability: Makuhita can be found in the ground floor of Granite Cave with a 50% encounter rate at levels 6-10, or the first floor basement of Granite Cave with a 10% encounter rate at levels 10-11.
Stats: Enormous HP lets Hariyama tank stuff and use lots of Bulk Ups, and strong Physical Attack after a rather early evolution lets it 1v1 most things with or without Bulk Up. However, low defenses and Speed means it takes annoying status moves and consumes lots of potions when you fight regular trainers.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type throughout the game. The Psychic weakness occasionally hinders Hariyama.
Movepool: Makuhita learns Vital Throw at level 13, which is a really powerful attack at this point in the game and serves Hariyama well for much of it. Hariyama can learn Bulk Up, which it makes good use of easily due to its high HP. Much later, Hariyama can learn the slightly higher PP and non-negative priority Brick Break. Hariyama's movepool outside of Fighting-type attacks is really shallow, so moves such as Dig, Strength, or Earthquake provide much needed additional coverage against opponents that resist Fighting.
Major Battles: The Brawly matchup is unfavorable since his Makuhita is likely stronger and has Bulk Up. From here on, Hariyama can just brute force its way through most major battles with Bulk Ups, albeit with hefty Potion support. Consequently, Tate and Liza and the champion are the only really difficult fights. Of course, some opponents (namely Winona, Phoebe, and Drake) require more Bulk Ups than others.
Additional Comments: Thick Fat is the better ability because it makes Flannery and Glacia much easier. Note that Hariyama will consume much of your Potion reserves due to its high HP, low initial bulk, bad Speed, and heavy use of setup.

zubat

Name: Zubat
Availability: Zubat can be found in the second floor basement of Granite Cave B2F with a 30% encounter rate.
Stats: Amazing Speed, good Attack and respectable bulk.
Typing: Typing grants many 4x resistances which help in the early game, but weaknesses to Psychic, Ice, and Rock become more pronounced towards the lategame.
Movepool: The Steel Wing TM is needed to let Zubat competently fight on its own until it learns Wing Attack, while the Sludge Bomb TM is mandatory to achieve maximum damage output. All other moves it learns are helpful but not necessary. Note that even with Steel Wing, Zubat struggles against Rock-types, and Crobat is incapable of touching Steel-types.
Major Battles: Zubat can take on Brawly (albeit not very quickly) and does decently at route sweeping, but otherwise has average to terrible matchups against all other bosses, usually faltering against their ace Pokemon, especially those that are resistant or immune to Sludge Bomb. Crobat's role tends to be relegated to toss out fast and strong attacks that can beat weaker trainers or KO one/two of the boss's Pokemon, or potentially harassing tough opponents with its fast Confuse Ray.
Additional Comments: Zubat is also available at Meteor Falls up to a more manageable level 20 and at a much higher 80% rate, but the drawback is being stuck with the mediocre Golbat stage for longer.

Anyway, here's a new one!

Name: Ralts
Availability: Ralts is found in Route 102 at a 4% encounter rate.
Stats: Rather poor to mediocre stats as Ralts and Kirlia, but Gardevoir has amazing Special Attack & Special Defense and sufficient Speed.
Typing: Psychic typing grants good neutral STAB coverage for much of the game, though Dark-types are a hassle in the early game. It can make use of its resistances against Brawly and Tate&Liza, but weaknesses to Sidney and Phoebe can prove annoying.
Movepool: Ralts first needs 2 levels to acquire Confusion to be able to fight on its own. As a Kirlia, it soon gains access to two of its most important moves, Calm Mind and Psychic, at ridiculously early levels, which tear down much of the game and are mostly all it needs. Kirlia can use the Shock Wave TM for additional coverage, which can then be upgraded to the Thunderbolt TM as Gardevoir. Gardevoir can also use Safeguard for situationally easier setup opportunities, though the TM is obtained rather late at the Lilycove Department Store.
Major Battles: Ralts can take on all of Brawly's Pokemon, though one would either need Potions or smart timing of Growl to weaken his Makuhita's assaults in order to keep up. Kirlia could use Calm Mind to stand up to Wattson, but a clean sweep is unlikely given the number of Thunder Wave, Sonicboom, and Selfdestruct users on his team. From here on out, Kirlia/Gardevoir should be able to set up Calm Minds against the bosses' lead Pokemon with ease to be able to wipe out their team with boosted Psychics and Thunderbolts, though it is to be expected that Kirlia/Gardevoir might need to be healed in the process. Gardevoir might also need some additional help or insurance against certain opponents, such as an X Defend and/or X Speed beforehand to avoid heavy retaliation from Norman's Slakings, and Safeguard to ignore confusion attempts such as Swagger, Sweet Kiss, and Toxic. Phoebe is Gardevoir's hardest matchup; the only window of opportunity is to set up Reflect against her Sableye, and even then Gardevoir must be sufficiently leveled to avoid being 2HKOed, and it must also be female to avoid Sableye's Attract, so this is ill-advised.
Additional Comments: It is not recommended for Gardevoir to set up against the lead Mightyenas of Maxie, Archie, and Sidney despite them posing little offensive threat, as Gardevoir cannot prevent their attempts at using Roar, Scary Face, and Sand-Attack to disrupt Gardevoir's sweep. Set up on their other Pokemon instead.

Ralts: Why is Safeguard mentioned? Replace this with Double Team, per my run it specifically enables sweeps vs Roxanne, Sidney, and Drake. You overestimate Brawly and Wattsons ability to prevent a sweep, vs Brawly a lv 16 Ralts comfortably beats Makuhita without being threatened with a KO in return; vs Wattson a simple Cheri Berry protects against Voltob and Electrike is easy setup fodder. Again referencing my run, Gardevoir can set up with Double Team against Dusclops rather than requiring Reflect to look for chances against Sableye.

Pikachu: Remove Wallace in matchups, frailty severely limits its ability to perform. Can beat Wailord reliably but will lose to most of her other Pokemon. Tentacruel will tank a Thunderbolt and OHKO you, and may outspeed. Gyarados depends on who outspeeds. Whiscash is a no-go. Milotic will tank comfortably and likely OHKO, and Ludicolo is a roughly even matchup between Surf/Double Team/Leech Seed.

Shroomish: Breloom beats Winona, plenty of easy setup fodder.

Absol, Meditite: Good. Taillow: Perhaps mention how its offense falls off heavily by the end game?

Heracross: Per my recent run Winona and Phoebe are easy sweeps. Only Tate and Liza is a bad matchup

Makuhita: Good

Zubat: Definitely needs a comment on how piss poor its attacking potential becomes by the end game



Merritt been a couple months since the last updates and I've made a large number of nominations, can we get an update please?

 

[Merritt]

Rank updates: less-than-2-months-since-slakoth-rose edition

Rises:

Skitty rises to E rank

Drops:

Treecko drops to B rank


Skitty is kind of a whatever situation, it was really absurdly bad in the run I did with and contributed vs 0 gyms, but if you really think it's E rank instead of F then sure, it's early enough that it can theoretically outlevel some of the weaker stuff.


Numel's not moving.

Wingull was brought up previously and denied, and I'm not seeing a new reason for that to change. The combat abilities aren't great but it's an excellent HM slave that is capable of contributing at least somewhat against every gym bar Wattson.

Zubat was a pain as always, but Crobat performed well enough that I don't think D rank is necessary. It wasn't great by the time lategame rolled around but it was competent enough to contribute.

Spoink has been fluctuating everywhere from B to D now, and I think C is fitting overall, hell less than a year ago Texas brought it along briefly to help vs Flannery and called it impressive there so experiences seem all over the damn map. I'd need a generalized consensus for Spoink to move at this point.

Heracross was a very different early experience for me than you apparently Texas Cloverleaf, the encounter rate was annoying enough considering that you have limited steps (artificially increasing the time to even encounter the thing, none of the usual running back and forth), but the first one ran away before I could even manage the Pokeblock throw bug. I'd hate to image how many attempts it could have taken without pokeblocks to help. This of course requires taking the time to make the blocks in Lilycove, but that's not a huge hardship. Unfortunately, Heracross performed extremely poorly vs Winona, taking far too much to be sustainable from Aerial Ace and then getting Perish Songed on an attempt after grinding it to L31 like yours, which of course meant that attempting a sweep was infeasible.

I did not give it a shot in Ruby but purely from the damage range Swablu did I'd put money on Winona in Ruby requiring far too much grinding to be reasonable considering the higher leveled lead Swellow.

Juan was also pretty infuriating, having to struggle through both confusion and attract (and when Heracross is as annoying to catch as it is it sure as hell's getting penalized if you're required to catch a female on top of that) that required far too many hyper potions to be comfortable. The rest of the game played out very similarly to your run, however something that infuriating to obtain that fails to contribute meaningfully (because Tate&Liza isn't really meaningful although it's thankfully not dead weight) until Gym 8 is where you'd expect to see something in B tier, not A.

Nincada I'd just like another opinion on, I'm overall fine with D though and will move it up if nobody has a particularly contradictory experience.


I'll do comments on writeups within the week, sorry life's been rather busy of late. Thank you to everybody who's been working on them!

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Rank updates: less-than-2-months-since-slakoth-rose edition

Rises:

Skitty rises to E rank

Drops:

Treecko drops to B rank


Skitty is kind of a whatever situation, it was really absurdly bad in the run I did with and contributed vs 0 gyms, but if you really think it's E rank instead of F then sure, it's early enough that it can theoretically outlevel some of the weaker stuff.


Numel's not moving.

Wingull was brought up previously and denied, and I'm not seeing a new reason for that to change. The combat abilities aren't great but it's an excellent HM slave that is capable of contributing at least somewhat against every gym bar Wattson.

Zubat was a pain as always, but Crobat performed well enough that I don't think D rank is necessary. It wasn't great by the time lategame rolled around but it was competent enough to contribute.

Spoink has been fluctuating everywhere from B to D now, and I think C is fitting overall, hell less than a year ago Texas brought it along briefly to help vs Flannery and called it impressive there so experiences seem all over the damn map. I'd need a generalized consensus for Spoink to move at this point.

Heracross was a very different early experience for me than you apparently Texas Cloverleaf, the encounter rate was annoying enough considering that you have limited steps (artificially increasing the time to even encounter the thing, none of the usual running back and forth), but the first one ran away before I could even manage the Pokeblock throw bug. I'd hate to image how many attempts it could have taken without pokeblocks to help. This of course requires taking the time to make the blocks in Lilycove, but that's not a huge hardship. Unfortunately, Heracross performed extremely poorly vs Winona, taking far too much to be sustainable from Aerial Ace and then getting Perish Songed on an attempt after grinding it to L31 like yours, which of course meant that attempting a sweep was infeasible.

I did not give it a shot in Ruby but purely from the damage range Swablu did I'd put money on Winona in Ruby requiring far too much grinding to be reasonable considering the higher leveled lead Swellow.

Juan was also pretty infuriating, having to struggle through both confusion and attract (and when Heracross is as annoying to catch as it is it sure as hell's getting penalized if you're required to catch a female on top of that) that required far too many hyper potions to be comfortable. The rest of the game played out very similarly to your run, however something that infuriating to obtain that fails to contribute meaningfully (because Tate&Liza isn't really meaningful although it's thankfully not dead weight) until Gym 8 is where you'd expect to see something in B tier, not A.

Nincada I'd just like another opinion on, I'm overall fine with D though and will move it up if nobody has a particularly contradictory experience.


I'll do comments on writeups within the week, sorry life's been rather busy of late. Thank you to everybody who's been working on them!

I don't understand why or how you struggled to acquire Heracross, or why you felt it was remotely necessary or a good idea to invest time in pokeblocks. Step limitations is not a reasonable detraction at all, anyone who has ever spent time trying to catch something in the Safari Zone knows that you simply rotate the d-pad in one place while looking for uncommon Pokemon. Heracross doesn't have a particularly difficult catch rate either, in my run iirc it took two trips to find one but the second run I found four all of which were caught within a couple of throws.

In regards to Juan I indicated in my run that it's best to simply avoid confusion and attract shenanigans by KOing Luvdisc after one Bulk Up as it can comfortably set up on Whiscash as well. No Hyper Potion usage should be necessary at all.

It's not clear to me either where your Winona experience came from, +3 was more than enough to make Aerial Ace no threat whatsoever and Winona was happy to spend time using Mirror Move and Safeguard. As I indicated in my run Swablu is easily dispatched early and further Bulk Ups used against Pelipper or Tropius. Given I easily swept at level 27 and you struggled at 31, it seems to me like you simply got unlucky in move selection.


It seems to me like you've handicapped yourself at several points and this is negatively impacting your perception of heracross away from reality. The reality is that Heracross cleanly sweeps almost every major battle left from the time of it's arrival with minimal support needed, only the rare X Speed. It does not have the acquisition efforts that you claim and should be a clear A rank.

 

[Merritt]

I don't understand why or how you struggled to acquire Heracross, or why you felt it was remotely necessary or a good idea to invest time in pokeblocks. Step limitations is not a reasonable detraction at all, anyone who has ever spent time trying to catch something in the Safari Zone knows that you simply rotate the d-pad in one place while looking for uncommon Pokemon. Heracross doesn't have a particularly difficult catch rate either, in my run iirc it took two trips to find one but the second run I found four all of which were caught within a couple of throws.

To clarify:

Pokeblocks were used in order to perform the Pokeblock throw bug, in order to reduce the number of Heracross that fled prior to being caught. Not mandatory, sure, but it's something I know how to do and on average will speed up catching Pokemon with a low catch rate like Heracross by reducing the chances for them to flee. The drastically increased odds of a +Attack nature helps as well.

The step limitation I referenced was purely in terms of hitting fewer tiles of grass per second - you cannot spin in place without taking a step nearly as fast as you can run back and forth or use the bike in my experience, perhaps this differs for other people.

Heracross has the common "low" catch rate of 45, each Safari ball should have a slightly under 10% chance to catch the Heracross.

For Winona - first run with the low level Heracross had Aerial Ace 1 put +1 Heracross in orange, going to +2 resulted in a dead Heracross from a second Aerial Ace. I probably did just get unlucky with move selection, however the fact that you need luck to successfully set up on Winona is pretty far from ideal.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

An underleveled Heracross needing Winona to not roll a 1/4 to clean sweep at a 4x type disadvantage is a positive, not a negative

 

[Vinc2612]

The step limitation I referenced was purely in terms of hitting fewer tiles of grass per second - you cannot spin in place without taking a step nearly as fast as you can run back and forth or use the bike in my experience, perhaps this differs for other people.

Since you need the cross bike anyway, you can just hold B to jump quickly without taking a step.

 

[Punchshroom]

Ralts: Why is Safeguard mentioned? Replace this with Double Team, per my run it specifically enables sweeps vs Roxanne, Sidney, and Drake. You overestimate Brawly and Wattsons ability to prevent a sweep, vs Brawly a lv 16 Ralts comfortably beats Makuhita without being threatened with a KO in return; vs Wattson a simple Cheri Berry protects against Voltob and Electrike is easy setup fodder. Again referencing my run, Gardevoir can set up with Double Team against Dusclops rather than requiring Reflect to look for chances against Sableye.

I admittedly forgot about Double Team since most matchups that it could help in can already be beaten without it (namely Sidney & Drake); I suppose it's useful against Roxanne so I'll add that (as well as giving Ralts a bit more credit against Brawly & Wattson). I dislike setting up on her lead Dusclops since Curse cannot be dodged and can kill Garde's momentum by burning through Hyper Potions and allow Phoebe the chance to land a Shadow Ball & burn through even more Hyper Potions.

Pikachu: Remove Wallace in matchups, frailty severely limits its ability to perform. Can beat Wailord reliably but will lose to most of her other Pokemon. Tentacruel will tank a Thunderbolt and OHKO you, and may outspeed. Gyarados depends on who outspeeds. Whiscash is a no-go. Milotic will tank comfortably and likely OHKO, and Ludicolo is a roughly even matchup between Surf/Double Team/Leech Seed.

Isn't this a bit too hard on Raichu, especially given its ability to learn Light Screen to at least improve its matchups against some of the Waters? I'm going to assume you think Manectric has a worse time against Wallace since it's even more specially frail and thus more liable to get OHKOed by the powerful Water attacks, and doesn't even learn Light Screen to help save itself.