Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Texas Cloverleaf]

More Xatu boosting, at level 40 it achieved a clean set up an sweep vs Juan, no healing items, outspeed everything including Kingdra. Set up CM to +6 and Sun vs Whiscash taking 50% total. Vs Wally (lv 41, 42 after Garde) it came in to tank Gardevoir and an incoming Future Sight after Banette went down and set up to +3 without issue to outspeed and KO with Psychic (also OHKOd Delcatty).

Definitively proving it's worth and actually making a case for C, E4 should determine D vs C and sorting this will likely be my focus. Punchshroom you originally nominated to E, I'm curious your thoughts given Xatu's very strong performance for me so far.

Rhydon has some useful matchups vs Victory Road so far, Magnetons, Muk, Slaking. IF it performs well vs the E4 I'll consider it strong wlenough to stay in E, if not it'll be a clear F.

Raichu is a more niche Xatu, same speed, a bit stronger, better against the things it can hit, but much more limited and with fewer matchups it can handle

Seaking hasn't done anything, which on one hand is reflective of its opponents but on the other hand is reflective of it's utility as this point in the game. E4 potential will determine E vs F.

Muk is good in D.

Banette too, if Ghost we're a better attacking type it could justify C, but as is it's a little too limited and a little too frail to move up, and with its power with Shadow Ball/Hyper Beam off it's attack stat it never falls below D.

 

[Punchshroom]

More Xatu boosting, at level 40 it achieved a clean set up an sweep vs Juan, no healing items, outspeed everything including Kingdra. Set up CM to +6 and Sun vs Whiscash taking 50% total. Vs Wally (lv 41, 42 after Garde) it came in to tank Gardevoir and an incoming Future Sight after Banette went down and set up to +3 without issue to outspeed and KO with Psychic (also OHKOd Delcatty).

Definitively proving it's worth and actually making a case for C, E4 should determine D vs C and sorting this will likely be my focus. Punchshroom you originally nominated to E, I'm curious your thoughts given Xatu's very strong performance for me so far.

If I had the same kind of optimism you have, I'd be making nominations like Spoink to B, Girafarig to C/B, and not harshly bashing Ninjask/Shedinja every time someone brings them up.

The main takeaway here is that Calm Mind is a stupid good move, and I don't doubt that even something like Chimecho can do most of what Xatu can pull off here (Chimecho has an equally strong Psychic and more bulk than Xatu btw, while also not being weak to Ice). I'm also expecting you to change your tune on Xatu real quick once you take it into the Elite 4. Calm Minding is something that a large majority of late-game Pokemon can do (even Banette could have done it), so Xatu needs to be pretty exceptional to justify this investment. Compare some of the Calm Mind competition that it has in the same/adjacent areas:

- Psyduck can be caught at very high levels, up to level 35, meaning there is no need for it to play catch-up. Golduck can contribute against Tate&Liza, use its Water & Ice resistances to set up on Wallace/Juan/Glacia and smack them with boosted Psychics (its best neutral attack), and of course Ice Beam lets it barrel through Drake.
- Girafarig's access to Thunderbolt lets it sweep the Water bosses with less Calm Minds under its belt than Xatu, and its Ghost immunity allows it to set up against Phoebe as well. As an added insult, Girafarig doesn't even need to level up and evolve to immediately hold its own like Xatu does. In fact, I think there's hardly any instances where Xatu would outperform Girafarig outside of being able to SolarBeam Tate&Liza, since Giraf is superior in the other boss matchups as well as route trainers (Thunderbolt > SolarBeam for route trainer coverage).
- Banette is a bit too frail, both in terms of bulk and resists, to reliably set up Calm Mind without eating through Hyper Potion reserves, but once again, Thunderbolt access is pretty huge and does give it hope of better contributions against the Water bosses. Shadow Ball also smacks Tate&Liza and Phoebe pretty hard too, though obviously Banette isn't expected to beat down more than 1 Ghost at a time, or just risk getting outsped by her own Banettes. Still, better track record than Xatu in any case.
- Absol faces the same fraility issues that Banette does, but having BOLTBEAM alongside Calm Mind is nothing short of a godsend if you do choose to go this path. Most people would probably prefer the Swords Dance + Shadow Ball route, but even then I would consider Absol an overall superior investment for the Calm Mind TM.

Even disregarding the competiton, I've already pointed out Natu's own shortcomings (especially in the E4 matchup) numerous times. Natu already suffers from being a lategame mon, but I expect it to do better than just being good for the remaining Gyms while struggling/flopping against almost the entire E4 to warrant D Rank in the first place, much less nom it to rise.

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C to B
"Discount Swampert" is still pretty damn great, especially when it starts off with Surf, EQ, and the Ice Beam TM the moment you get it, though it needs to be Good Rodded at its highest level of 30. Barboach has pretty much no losing matchups outside of the super telegraphed Grass-type attack (Sidney's Shiftry is not one of these btw), and nearly any boss that risks overpowering Whiscash can be stopped by Amnesia. It's not particularly powerful but the power of its attacks more than make up for this, and from my experiences Whicash makes for an even better Amnesia user than Swalot in all the battles that matter. Unfortunately it misses out on Wattson and Flannery, but it's still plenty good for the remaining matchups in the game.

D to E
Rhyhorn has been getting a lot of flak lately, but at least it has access to two serviceable STABs in Rock Blast and Dig. Phanpy is a one trick pony elephant by comparison, being largely relegated to non-STAB coverage SINCE DONPHAN DOESN'T EVEN GET DIG while not boasting any matchups where it outperforms Rhyhorn. Even in Victory Road, where Rhyhorn could have either already evolved or start training there, Rhydon has an easier time than Donphan against more trainers due to its superior physical tankiness and extra resistances to Normal, Fire, and Flying, with relatively few opponents that punish Rhydon's typing that wouldn't be hurting Donphan as well. All in all, I don't consider Phanpy's far earlier evolution level in exchange for being even more limited and linear than Rhyhorn/Rhydon to be remotely valuable. Its only saving grace is its favorable matchup against Steven's Metagross, but that's hardly worth the payoff of being average at best to being deadweight most of the time (especially its pre-EQ period) for so long.

C to B
Between Swords Dance and the aforementioned Calm Mind, as well as having terrific coverage moves to complement its boosting options, few Pokemon can boast this sort of offensive versatility. This gives the Absol user a good amount of freedom in how they want to run their Absol, so I believe a rise would be warranted.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

nah man your'e just way too pessimistic, natu is definitely d at worst, dont care how much you want to boost girafarig, it's not optimistic at all to say that something is performing well when it's outspeeding and clean sweeping at a significant level disadvantage

also phanpy has always been awful and i'd go a step further and say that it should be nominated to F, there's a very reasonable argument that rhyhorn is definitely better

 

[Punchshroom]

nah man your'e just way too pessimistic, natu is definitely d at worst, dont care how much you want to boost girafarig

Be that as it may, the thing is that Xatu has performed pretty much exactly within my expectations both in route clearing and in gym battles (I even told you which set would perform best vs Juan) with the exception of Solarbeam putting in work vs Tate&Liza, and I am still not particularly impressed.

If you can surprise me regarding Xatu's deplorable E4 matchups then I'd be more inclined to view Xatu in a more positive light; I'll just say right now that I foresee Xatu's hopeful matchups to be either Calm Minding to +6 on Drake's Shelgon or setting up vs Wallace, and already it lags behind other Calm Minders due to Shelgon's tendency to Rock Tomb Xatu as well as its weakness to Wailord's Blizzard (thus it seeks Whiscash as safer setup fodder), both of which hinder its chances of a clean sweep in comparison. Even after all this, there's still Xatu's poor Steven matchup to consider as well (only has a good matchup vs Claydol, and even then it can be slower down by Light Screen) when evaluating its overall rank.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Ended up yolo running up through Drake before falling asleep while severely underlevelled just to see what happened before falling asleep, everything is 44/45 except for Muk who is 47 for sludge bomb

Sidney: Seaking oursped and ohkos mighteyna on a crit surf, Raichu OHKOs crawdaunt, Muk beats shiftry, cacturne, Absol

Phoebe: banette 2hkos dusclops 1 tanking a shadow punch, rhydon uses 1 x attack and 1 x speed va banette 1 and sweeps

Glacia: little hazy on this one, Seaking beat the light screen Glalie and chipped down the second before fainting, Raichu 2hkoed both Sealeo, some combination of Raichu and Muk finished off the last Glalie and took down Walrein without issue

Drake: Xatu sets up to +6/+6/+6 on special attack and both defenses, shelgon spams protect with the occasional rock tonb and double edge, Xatu clean sweeps without healing despite not outspeeding anything from the speed drops (I also pass out in my bed while still being in the end of battle sequence lul)


This is why I don't use x items btw, they're really fuckin stupid when they can let you clean sweep an E4 at level 45, severely skews perceptions of performance. It's why I value type coverage and ability to beat things 1v1 over something being able to set up boosts, the former is much more predictive of actual strength vs player manipulated strength


(brief theorymon, Steven doesn't seem terrible for Xatu? Can't beat Skarmory or Metagross, but if it can set up on Claydol it should be able to OHKO Claydol (Solar Beam), Armaldo (Psychic), Cradily (Psychic), and Aggron (Solar Beam) without much trouble.)

Edit: running Wallace now, Seaking leads, gets a bit of chip on wailord, wailord is switched for ludicolo. I switch back with banette a bit to stall out rain, banette dies. Muk comes in, hits a screech through double team, misses a bit then OHKOs with sludge bomb on a leech seed. Gyarados in, met with Raichu who outspeeds and ohkos. Whiscash in, Xatu sets up to +2/+6/+6/+1, dying once to a crit in the process, sets up sun and sweeps through Whiscash, wailord, milotic, and tentacruel, usuing roughly six potions during set up.

For real if we ever needed a case study on why to not factor X-Items into performance, this is it. And also yes, I'd say sweeping through both of the most difficult E4s is worthy of a guaranteed D rank for Xatu.

Final levels:
Seaking - 45
Docile nature | 140 / 99 / 70 / 81 / 81 / 82 | Surf / Ice Beam / Waterfall / Dive
Xatu - 46
Rash nature | 130 / 83 /83 / 118 / 77 / 108 | Psychic / Solar Beam / Sunny Day / Calm Mid
Rhydon - 45
Hasty nature | 164 / 138 / 103 / 56 / 52 / 67 | Earthquake / Rock Blast / Strength / Dig
Raichu - 45
Modest nature | 115 / 89 / 66 / 110 / 80 / 104 | Thunderbolt / Thunder Wave / Rock Smash / Flash
Banette - 45
Sassy nature | 123 / 122 / 77 / 88 / 74 / 68 | Shadow Ball / Will-O-Wisp / Hyper Beam / Screech
Muk - 47
Careful nature | 167 / 115 / 96 / 68 / 117 / 68 | Sludge Bomb / Brick Break / Screech / Thunderbolt


formal nominations

Muk (R/E) to D rank (to match Sapphire Muk, I don't think the acquisition cost merits a tier drop in this case)
Raichu to D rank (stay)
Rhydon to F rank (bad overall, Phoebe is sole "good" matchup)
Seaking to E rank (not very good, but passable, better than the other garbage in F)
Xatu to D rank (performed very well, sweeping capacity, unexpectedly fast, good typing resistances to aid set ups. Has enough strong matchups vs difficult opponents - Tate and Liza, Juan, Drake, Wallace - to merit an argument for C, but not one that needs to be made, definitively D at worst.)
Banette to D rank (stay)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Doing another run through, this time specifically without using X-Items

Sidney: Seaking (barely) 2HKOs Mightyena, Muk OHKOs Cacturne, Muk OHKOs Shiftry (used Swagger), Muk OHKOs Crawdaunt, Muk OHKOs Absol (taking 20% from Slash)
mvp: Muk

Phoebe: Banette OHKOs Dusclops 1 with the aid of Curse, Seaking 3HKOs Banette 1 taking 55% from a Shadow Ball in the process, Rhydon (EQ for 80%) and Seaking (Surf) tag team Banette 2 - Rhydon would have been able to stay in and 2HKO cleanly barring the Sp Def drop from Psychic, Rhydon 2HKOs Sableye, vs Dusclops 2 Banette burns it with Will-o-wisp after missing once; Muk comes in to Screech it while healing Banette and tanking EQ handily; and Banette cleans up with Shadow Ball.
mvp: Rhydon

Glacia: led Seaking again because I forgot she leads Sealeo, again. Switch to Raichu on the Hail, trade a Thunderbolt (88ish%) for a Body Slam (40%ish) and a Full Restore, then kill the mini-whale. Seaking and Glalie trade attacks leading to a Seaking faint on a crit Crunch after using one Hyper Potion, Muk comes in to finish with Brick Break, tanking an Ice Beam for 24%. Sealeo in, meets Raichu, Raichu at half health faints to a Blizzard dealing 90% with Thunderbolt, Muk in to outspeed and clean up. Glalie 2 enters met by Banette, attacks are traded, another Full Restore is burned, Banette faints with Glalie at 60%, Muk in, eats Ice Beam for 30%, kills with Brick Break. Walrein enters as Rhydon is sacked to Potion up Muk, Muk 3HKOs (4HKOs after Sitrus) with Brick Break with occasional Reviving after eating a Sheer Cold
mvp: Muk

Drake: Muk leads vs Shelgon gets a Sludge Bomb 2HKO aided by a poison taking 60% from a Rock Tomb+Double-Edge. Flygon in met by Seaking, Earthquake does 80ish%, Ice Beam OHKOs in return (critical hit, can't tell if it would OHKO without it, my guess is it wouldn't). Altaria in met by Rhydon, Rock Blast hits for 75% on the DD, then trades with a 45% Dragon Breath for the KO. Kingdra in, met by Raichu who immediately T-Waves, throw a Flash at it while it DDs, then trade a 33% Thunderbolt for a Body Slam OHKO. Banette comes in, Screeches on a pull paralysis and KOed with Hyper Beam. Salamence in, Xatu meets to Revive Raichu, lives a Crunch (!) in the process to potion up Seaking. Raichu in, immediately dies. Oops. Seaking in, trades Dragon Claw (60%) for Ice Beam (60% pre Sitrus). Switch to Muk to eat a Rock Slide and potion Seaking back up, Ice Beam KOs from 60%.
mvp: shared, all pulled weight

Wallace: Level update, everyone is 46 except Muk who is 50 and Seaking at 47, expect some potion spam. Raichu leads this time, TBolts Wailord for 80%, eats Water Spout for 40%, and KOs. Gyarados in, immediately OHKOd. Whiscash in, met by Xatu, Sunny Day on Amnesia, Solar Beam crits through Amnesia to OHKO (3HKO a reasonable assumption when Whiscash Amnesias a second time). Tentacruel in, met by Raichu to Thunder Wave but who is outsped and OHKOed by Sludge Bomb. Rhydon in with Sun up, dead to Hydro Pump. Banette in, eats a Toxic, Hydro Pump, and Sludge Bomb without doing anything because I forgot about Clear Body. Use Seaking to heal it up and try again, bulky enough to live 2x Sludge Bomb. This time Banette trades Will-O-Wisp for Toxic+Hydro Pump (I've missed so many Willos...) before dying, Muk in. Muk eats two Hydro Pumps for ~33% each, Thunderbolt hitting back for 25ish%. Tentacruel is out of Hydros at this point and can only Sludge Bomb me for 16% or Ice Beam for 20%. I burn both of his last(?) Full Restores in exchange for healing Raichu, some time later Tentacruel falls. Ludicolo and Milotic vs healthy Muk / Raichu / Xatu at this point. Ludicolo in met by Muk, Ludicolo attempts to Double Team, trolls with misses to get a couple Surfs off, and is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb (88%) burning Wallaces actual last Full Restore in the process, Surf dealing 29% to Muk. Milotic in, met by Raichu, trades Thunder Wave for Toxic. Lives a Surf before dying to Toxic damage, dealing 40% for Milo with Tbolt. Muk in, Screech, Screech, Screech, Sludge Bomb gg (would have gged after two but Recover happened), taking a critical hit Surf for 79% in the process.
mvp: Muk

 

[Colonel M]

I mean sure if you spend 12+ turns to set up a Pokemon it's likely to 5-0/6-0 the matchup, but the amount of time and effort needed to do it is very inefficient.

The primary problem with your claim against X Items is said inefficient usage. Ironically, in spite of complaining and inefficiently using X Items most of the time you actually had one moment where it was used efficiently:

rhydon uses 1 x attack and 1 x speed va banette 1 and sweeps

When using X Items the focal point is that the Pokemon behind it still needs to be good enough with little assistance. Being underleveld really doesn't mean a lot and is probably one of the biggest meme complaints from the casual playerbase. When your team is bloated with more Pokemon and you go through the game at a faster rate your teams will definitely feel "underleveled." This is why team compositions where 2-4 mons (optional solo mon) is a lot more viable - the amount of experience needed to be spread is a lot less and the amount of grinding that needs to be done is a lot smaller. X Items help save time from effortless grinding and helps teams that feel "underleveled" perform above what they would normally perform with the grind in mind.

That being said, I cannot support Xatu going any higher than D and still honestly question it above E. If anything the run has taught me from reading is that Xatu is a major liability without immense amount of turns setting up which could probably be cut in half with smarter usage of X Items or other Pokemon. This is also assuming that you're willing to give Calm Mind to Xatu over other Pokemon that are probably a lot easier to use such as Grumpig (admittedly the competition for the TM is kind of low otherwise). I dont see how this beats Geodude (No Trade) for example or even compares since Geodude has early game with a few gym advantages up its sleeve. Xatu assumes using a lot of TMs that have competition (many Psychics want to learn Psychic a lot earlier for example). To me it just doesn't look like a viable choice beyond E, and definitely not above D either.

 

[Punchshroom]

Drake: Xatu sets up to +6/+6/+6 on special attack and both defenses, shelgon spams protect with the occasional rock tonb and double edge, Xatu clean sweeps without healing despite not outspeeding anything from the speed drops (I also pass out in my bed while still being in the end of battle sequence lul)

This is why I don't use x items btw, they're really fuckin stupid when they can let you clean sweep an E4 at level 45, severely skews perceptions of performance. It's why I value type coverage and ability to beat things 1v1 over something being able to set up boosts, the former is much more predictive of actual strength vs player manipulated strength

Regardless of preference, X items can be an extremely efficient way to bypass an otherwise troublesome matchup with relatively fewer difficulty & expenditures. That said, even how well a Pokemon uses X items isn't equal, and in my opinion Xatu lies on the spectrum of Pokemon that has to consume more X & healing items on average, primarily due to its annoying weaknesses subjecting it to more damage or annoying attacks. For example, I am half certain your Xatu clean swept the fight as well as it did because its +6 Defense either allowed it to survive Salamence's Rock Slide or dissuaded it from going for it at all. Meanwhile, the most dangerous attack that most other Calm Minders face after setting up is Flygon's Earthquake (doesn't exist in Emerald, but then again neither does Rock Slide Salamence), but that issue can be bypassed with an X Speed since Shelgon has pretty much no incentive to click Rock Tomb against them.

(brief theorymon, Steven doesn't seem terrible for Xatu? Can't beat Skarmory or Metagross, but if it can set up on Claydol it should be able to OHKO Claydol (Solar Beam), Armaldo (Psychic), Cradily (Psychic), and Aggron (Solar Beam) without much trouble.)

You're right that I probably exaggerated this matchup, but Xatu still has some annoying hoops to jump through, such as timing its SunnyBeam assault when Claydol's Light Screen wears off, or risk taking heavy damage from Cradily's Ancientpower should it fail to OHKO with +6 Psychic (which is only really feasible for a Xatu that is at worst 3-4 levels lower), and of course Xatu is helpless against Metagross. Meanwhile, the other Psychic-type Calm Minders can set up on Cradily itself, and at least have more suitable coverage to hit Metagross with.

Edit: running Wallace now, Seaking leads, gets a bit of chip on wailord, wailord is switched for ludicolo. I switch back with banette a bit to stall out rain, banette dies. Muk comes in, hits a screech through double team, misses a bit then OHKOs with sludge bomb on a leech seed. Gyarados in, met with Raichu who outspeeds and ohkos. Whiscash in, Xatu sets up to +2/+6/+6/+1, dying once to a crit in the process, sets up sun and sweeps through Whiscash, wailord, milotic, and tentacruel, usuing roughly six potions during set up.

For real if we ever needed a case study on why to not factor X-Items into performance, this is it. And also yes, I'd say sweeping through both of the most difficult E4s is worthy of a guaranteed D rank for Xatu.

Again, even with X items, I still believe we should take relative performance into account, because technically any Pokemon can sweep through tough matchups if given enough resources; even garbage like Castform and Calm Mind Delcatty could take out the most difficult E4 members with BoltBeam. I mean really, it's pretty hard for anything to screw up a +6 (or +2)/+6/+6 sweep. The question to ask is how much an X-item abuser demands out of your resources to secure the sweep. Drake's Shelgon and Wallace's Wailord are pretty easy Calm Mind targets, but Xatu manages to have a harder time due to its inconvenient weaknesses getting in the way of both setup and sweeping time (ex: Salamence Rock Slide and Wallace's Ice Beam users), and I've already covered how Xatu requires more items on average to get the job done. Honestly, 6 Hyper Potions is way more than what I expected for setup. Some of the other Calm Mind users don't even need full +6 before Thunderbolt starts killing things to secure the sweep.

Just a note, trying to train up a level 10 Goldeen from scratch is definitely F-worthy, but if you were to catch a Goldeen from the Safari Zone with Good Rod so that it has immediate Surf + Ice Beam access and isn't far from evolution, your case to nom it to E would likely be stronger.

Raichu to D rank (stay)

I've been meaning to ask, but what exactly is holding Raichu back so much that it has to be separated two whole ranks from Electrike? They're obtainable within a similiar timeframe (I am exclusively counting only the mid-game Electrike; early-game Electrike is ass and Plusle/Minun's current ranks only help cement this fact) and have largely the same movepool, with Pikachu even having the benefit of not consuming the Thunderbolt TM and coming with Thunder Wave. Raichu is only marginally frailer on the physical side but still perfectly capable of handling stuff that Manectric can, such as Crobat, while Raichu actually has slightly superior special bulk which is helpful for later fights which are largely dominated by special attacks, so I don't even see the difference in bulk being an argument that holds water when trying to justify why Pikachu and Electrike are so far apart, or why they aren't even in the same rank.

Btw, Raichu has a significant movepool advantage over Manectric, in that it learns Light Screen and Brick Break. This means Raichu can attempt to do what Manectric can't without heavy X item/healing abuse: solo Glacia. Light Screen minimizes the majority of damage received (also handy vs Juan/Wallace), while Brick Break not only helps to conserve PP against Glalies (as well as Sidney I guess) but also shatters the Light Screen that one of them carries. If anything, I'm convinced that Pikachu is overall superior to Electrike.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That being said, I cannot support Xatu going any higher than D and still honestly question it above E. If anything the run has taught me from reading is that Xatu is a major liability without immense amount of turns setting up which could probably be cut in half with smarter usage of X Items or other Pokemon. This is also assuming that you're willing to give Calm Mind to Xatu over other Pokemon that are probably a lot easier to use such as Grumpig (admittedly the competition for the TM is kind of low otherwise). I dont see how this beats Geodude (No Trade) for example or even compares since Geodude has early game with a few gym advantages up its sleeve. Xatu assumes using a lot of TMs that have competition (many Psychics want to learn Psychic a lot earlier for example). To me it just doesn't look like a viable choice beyond E, and definitely not above D either.

Then you are completely not paying attention. Zero set up vs Tate and Liza. No healing required to fully set up vs Juan. No healing required to fully set up vs Drake. Undoubtedly I could have set up to a lower threshhold vs both Juan and Drake but with no healing required I had no impetus to not simple set up all the way.

edit: major liability is also extremely wrong and extremely not paying attention, Xatu performed very well in every major fight it was in and was the strongest choice for route clearing above the rest of the team without any kind of set up - I do not use set up moves against trainers, without exception

edit2: it also seems ridiculous to me to assume that teaching Xatu Psychic (the cheapest of the game corner TMs in addition to its presence in VRoad) is somehow a resource constraint against other Psychics. Setting aside the fact that you can near costlessly obtain multiple Psychic TMs (I had enough end of game money to buy 4 additional ones), why in the world are you using Xatu in the same team as a Kadabra (or Grumpig, or Girafarig)?

edit3: oops you said calm mind not psychic, point still stands though, in what situation are you ever having to choose between Grumpig and Xatu to teach CM to? Golduck is the only realistic competitor for the resource no?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Regardless of preference, X items can be an extremely efficient way to bypass an otherwise troublesome matchup with relatively fewer difficulty & expenditures. That said, even how well a Pokemon uses X items isn't equal, and in my opinion Xatu lies on the spectrum of Pokemon that has to consume more X & healing items on average, primarily due to its annoying weaknesses subjecting it to more damage or annoying attacks. For example, I am half certain your Xatu clean swept the fight as well as it did because its +6 Defense either allowed it to survive Salamence's Rock Slide or dissuaded it from going for it at all. Meanwhile, the most dangerous attack that most other Calm Minders face after setting up is Flygon's Earthquake, but that issue can be bypassed with an X Speed since Shelgon has pretty much no incentive to click Rock Tomb against them.

See response to CM, no healing was required for either the Juan or Drake fight as Shelgon is very fond of spamming Protect to grant free set up turns. I believe Salamence did Rock Slide rather than Crunch, I want to say for roughly 30%.

You're right that I probably exaggerated this matchup, but Xatu still has some annoying hoops to jump through, such as timing its SunnyBeam assault when Claydol's Light Screen wears off, or risk taking heavy damage from Cradily's Ancientpower should it fail to OHKO with +6 Psychic (which is only really feasible for a Xatu that is at worst 3-4 levels lower), and of course Xatu is helpless against Metagross. Meanwhile, the other Psychic-type Calm Minders can set up on Cradily itself, and at least have more suitable coverage to hit Metagross with.

Again, even with X items, I still believe we should take relative performance into account, because technically any Pokemon can sweep through tough matchups if given enough resources; even garbage like Castform and Calm Mind Delcatty could take out the most difficult E4 members with BoltBeam. I mean really, it's pretty hard for anything to screw up a +6 (or +2)/+6/+6 sweep. The question to ask is how much an X-item abuser demands out of your resources to secure the sweep. Drake's Shelgon and Wallace's Wailord are pretty easy Calm Mind targets, but Xatu manages to have a harder time due to its inconvenient weaknesses getting in the way of both setup and sweeping time (ex: Salamence Rock Slide and Wallace's Ice Beam users), and I've already covered how Xatu requires more items on average to get the job done. Honestly, 6 Hyper Potions is way more than what I expected for setup. Some of the other Calm Mind users don't even need full +6 before Thunderbolt starts killing things to secure the sweep.

I don't understand your argument here. Xatu was level 45. A Girafarig trying to set up on Whiscash is going to take at least that many with Earthquake smashing away at it. Given you're probably setting up on Wailord, I still expect you to take 4-5 potions given the 12 level disadvantage and relative power/bulk constraints.

Just a note, trying to train up a level 10 Goldeen from scratch is definitely F-worthy, but if you were to catch a Goldeen from the Safari Zone with Good Rod so that it has immediate Surf + Ice Beam access and isn't far from evolution, your case to nom it to E would likely be stronger.

I also disagree and believe the exact opposite in fact. Availability advantage is likely the main reason its worth using at all, delaying to Lilycove when all of your future training against Water routes is terrible. As I've detailed throughout the run training a level 10 Goldeen was not onerous due to the fighting gym providing experience fodder for Peck and Horn Attack being overpowered at the time you get it.

I've been meaning to ask, but what exactly is holding Raichu back so much that it has to be separated two whole ranks from Electrike? They're obtainable within a similiar timeframe (I am exclusively counting only the mid-game Electrike; early-game Electrike is ass and Plusle/Minun's current ranks only help cement this fact) and have largely the same movepool, with Pikachu even having the benefit of not consuming the Thunderbolt TM and coming with Thunder Wave. Raichu is only marginally frailer on the physical side but still perfectly capable of handling stuff that Manectric can, such as Crobat, while Raichu actually has slightly superior special bulk which is helpful for later fights which are largely dominated by special attacks, so I don't even see the difference in bulk being an argument that holds water when trying to justify why Pikachu and Electrike are so far apart, or why they aren't even in the same rank.

Btw, Raichu has a significant movepool advantage over Manectric, in that it learns Light Screen and Brick Break. This means Raichu can attempt to do what Manectric can't without heavy X item/healing abuse: solo Glacia. Light Screen minimizes the majority of damage received (also handy vs Juan/Wallace), while Brick Break not only helps to conserve PP against Glalies (as well as Sidney I guess) but also shatters the Light Screen that one of them carries. If anything, I'm convinced that Pikachu is overall superior to Electrike.

No particular comment on the comparison, Raichu was generally frail and took a notable amount of time to get going, didn't pick up until after Tate and Liza and didn't become powerful until Juan. With it's acquisition being as late as it is (and two large routes+Winona is a significant difference from mid-game Manectric) I have no incentive to suggest it to change ranks. It performed mostly as expected for its position.

edit: for real though I've had more than enough of one lifetime arguing about manectric, if you want to continue on your unending crusade against it be my guest

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That said, even how well a Pokemon uses X items isn't equal, and in my opinion Xatu lies on the spectrum of Pokemon that has to consume more X & healing items on average, primarily due to its annoying weaknesses subjecting it to more damage or annoying attacks.

I guess we really just had different experiences using it. It's bizarre to me that you consider its weaknesses so penalizing to me when in contrast I found its resistances/immunities to be hugely useful, something likely as bizarre to you.


edit: by the by, I still have a save state queued up with Light Ball Pikachu available and my next thing will likely to go back with that and go through end game with Sableye/Swellow etc

 

[Colonel M]

I've been meaning to ask, but what exactly is holding Raichu back so much that it has to be separated two whole ranks from Electrike? They're obtainable within a similiar timeframe (I am exclusively counting only the mid-game Electrike; early-game Electrike is ass and Plusle/Minun's current ranks only help cement this fact) and have largely the same movepool, with Pikachu even having the benefit of not consuming the Thunderbolt TM and coming with Thunder Wave. Raichu is only marginally frailer on the physical side but still perfectly capable of handling stuff that Manectric can, such as Crobat, while Raichu actually has slightly superior special bulk which is helpful for later fights which are largely dominated by special attacks, so I don't even see the difference in bulk being an argument that holds water when trying to justify why Pikachu and Electrike are so far apart, or why they aren't even in the same rank.

Early game Electrike could take Shock Wave from Wattson and perform alright. While it's true that it learns Spark at Level 20 I agree that it needs help and going straight Wattson after arriving in Mauville is your best bet for Electrike early on. Once you got Shock Wave Electrike is fine. I'm not sure about it early game Electrike being B is agreeable, but certainly it can be made to work.

Another perk Electrike has over Pikachu is Winona. While you can certainly go straight to Safari Zone and get Pikachu for Winona, it requires a major detour in comparison to Electrike. Furthermore, Electrike has a friendlier evolution advantage in comparison to Pikachu which requires either luck with Light Ball or getting shards for Thunderstone.

Btw, Raichu has a significant movepool advantage over Manectric, in that it learns Light Screen and Brick Break. This means Raichu can attempt to do what Manectric can't without heavy X item/healing abuse: solo Glacia. Light Screen minimizes the majority of damage received (also handy vs Juan/Wallace), while Brick Break not only helps to conserve PP against Glalies but also shatters the Light Screen that one of them carries. If anything, I'm convinced that Pikachu is overall superior to Electrike.

I wouldn't give BB and Light Screen too much credit. Brick Break helps coverage wise but Raichu's Attack is tolerable at best and there are a lot of other Pokemon that could use the move (some Fighting-types like Hariyama). I wouldn't call its BB shenanigans against Glalie that high but I guess it is something a lot of Electric-types fail to do in the process. I just think the niche isn't groundbreaking when Medicham or Thick Fat Hariyama can clear the field more efficiently.

Then you are completely not paying attention. Zero set up vs Tate and Liza. No healing required to fully set up vs Juan. No healing required to fully set up vs Drake. Undoubtedly I could have set up to a lower threshhold vs both Juan and Drake but with no healing required I had no impetus to not simple set up all the way.

I mean not using healing items isnt that big of an accomplishment. Naturally when setting up Calm Mind and the like you're not going to take a lot of special damage in the process and there are moves that Xatu learns to circumvent damage taken (Giga Drain, Wish). Again, the issue is taking 6-12 turns to set up to go through the teams, which is a major amount of time sunk that could have been done better by other Pokemon at a faster rate.

edit: major liability is also extremely wrong and extremely not paying attention, Xatu performed very well in every major fight it was in and was the strongest choice for route clearing above the rest of the team without any kind of set up - I do not use set up moves against trainers, without exception

Again the flaw isnt so much having to set up against regular trainers (though if you did, I'd argue Xatu to stay in E). The flaw is, again, 6-12 turns of constant setup that a lot of Pokemon can easily do in about half. Seriously look at how Rhydon paved Phoebe with only two X Items which is 2 turns. That's a huge difference.

edit2: it also seems ridiculous to me to assume that teaching Xatu Psychic (the cheapest of the game corner TMs in addition to its presence in VRoad) is somehow a resource constraint against other Psychics. Setting aside the fact that you can near costlessly obtain multiple Psychic TMs (I had enough end of game money to buy 4 additional ones), why in the world are you using Xatu in the same team as a Kadabra (or Grumpig, or Girafarig)?

The problem isnt necessarily Psychic TM independently, but there are other TMs from the Game Corner such as Thunderbolt and Ice Beam that can round out Pokemon such as Starmie a lot better that will use up more money in the process. Even then, there are still earlier and later Psychic-types that can take Psychic TM and become a lot more effective in a vacuum in comparison.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I mean not using healing items isnt that big of an accomplishment. Naturally when setting up Calm Mind and the like you're not going to take a lot of special damage in the process and there are moves that Xatu learns to circumvent damage taken (Giga Drain, Wish). Again, the issue is taking 6-12 turns to set up to go through the teams, which is a major amount of time sunk that could have been done better by other Pokemon at a faster rate.

Again the flaw isnt so much having to set up against regular trainers (though if you did, I'd argue Xatu to stay in E). The flaw is, again, 6-12 turns of constant setup that a lot of Pokemon can easily do in about half. Seriously look at how Rhydon paved Phoebe with only two X Items which is 2 turns. That's a huge difference.

The problem isnt necessarily Psychic TM independently, but there are other TMs from the Game Corner such as Thunderbolt and Ice Beam that can round out Pokemon such as Starmie a lot better that will use up more money in the process. Even then, there are still earlier and later Psychic-types that can take Psychic TM and become a lot more effective in a vacuum in comparison.

Vs Juan I'm reasonably confident that I needed only 3-4 turns of set up to sweep, 3 CMs is likely enough to guarantee the KO on Kingdra plus a Sunny Day. I challenge you to find other Pokemon at comparable ranks that could perform this faster without a type advantage.
edit: should also note that only 1 Calm Mind is likely enough to guarantee both a 2HKO and guarantee it survives Kingdras attack, so you could call it 2 turns of set up if you chose to look at it that way

Vs Drake 6 CMs might be necessary at that level to OHKO Salamence, possibly 5 would do it, likely about 4 x-defends are necessary to be at comfortable damage ranges vs Shelgon and Mence Rock Slide.

Vs Wallace, and making note that every enemy is 12-13 levels higher which yes does make a difference and assuming set up on Whiscash, I wanted 2 X-Defends to be able to take Hyper Beam for less than 50%, and then at that point I would expect 3 or 4 (4 to be safe) Calm Minds to be necessary to OHKO everything remaining from my run, 7 turns of set up and a couple heals. Again, I would challenge to you find other options in the D and E ranks that could survive to set up and also sweep in a comparable time frame or better without a noted type advantage. I doubt you'll find anything close to enough to justify holding Xatu down in E, where it definitely doesn't belong.


Rhydon is not a fair comparison for the simple reason that Phoebe has inherently limited Pokemon that allow for easy set up opportunities. Given Rhydon's particular strengths that matchup is effectively a type advantage for it with its Earthquakes being able to consistently land and Phoebe's mons not being able to hit it very hard, in addition to it being unable to set up vs Dusclops 1 for fear of Curse. This is the equivalent of running Xatu vs a theoretical Ground gym, the enemy can't hit you very hard and you can pave through them at +1 or +2 with Psychic and Giga Drain/Solar Beam.

Considering we're arguing for Electric types to share similar ranks I don't see any reasonable argument for using other Psychic's comparative advantages (of which Xatu has its own) as justification to hold Xatu down. Resource constraints against other Game Corner TMs is a fine argument but also team composition dependent, in my experience you have more than enough money by Lilycove (assuming sold Nuggets etc) to purchase two TMs of any kind from the game corner, assuming Xatu takes up one there aren't necessarily a ton of team compositions that require more than that as both Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are natively available by that point and Flamethrower has a limited distribution in addition to resources not required due level up movepools (i.e. Pikachu).

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Doing another run through, this time specifically without using X-Items

Sidney: Seaking (barely) 2HKOs Mightyena, Muk OHKOs Cacturne, Muk OHKOs Shiftry (used Swagger), Muk OHKOs Crawdaunt, Muk OHKOs Absol (taking 20% from Slash)
mvp: Muk

Phoebe: Banette OHKOs Dusclops 1 with the aid of Curse, Seaking 3HKOs Banette 1 taking 55% from a Shadow Ball in the process, Rhydon (EQ for 80%) and Seaking (Surf) tag team Banette 2 - Rhydon would have been able to stay in and 2HKO cleanly barring the Sp Def drop from Psychic, Rhydon 2HKOs Sableye, vs Dusclops 2 Banette burns it with Will-o-wisp after missing once; Muk comes in to Screech it while healing Banette and tanking EQ handily; and Banette cleans up with Shadow Ball.
mvp: Rhydon

Glacia: led Seaking again because I forgot she leads Sealeo, again. Switch to Raichu on the Hail, trade a Thunderbolt (88ish%) for a Body Slam (40%ish) and a Full Restore, then kill the mini-whale. Seaking and Glalie trade attacks leading to a Seaking faint on a crit Crunch after using one Hyper Potion, Muk comes in to finish with Brick Break, tanking an Ice Beam for 24%. Sealeo in, meets Raichu, Raichu at half health faints to a Blizzard dealing 90% with Thunderbolt, Muk in to outspeed and clean up. Glalie 2 enters met by Banette, attacks are traded, another Full Restore is burned, Banette faints with Glalie at 60%, Muk in, eats Ice Beam for 30%, kills with Brick Break. Walrein enters as Rhydon is sacked to Potion up Muk, Muk 3HKOs (4HKOs after Sitrus) with Brick Break with occasional Reviving after eating a Sheer Cold
mvp: Muk

Drake: Muk leads vs Shelgon gets a Sludge Bomb 2HKO aided by a poison taking 60% from a Rock Tomb+Double-Edge. Flygon in met by Seaking, Earthquake does 80ish%, Ice Beam OHKOs in return (critical hit, can't tell if it would OHKO without it, my guess is it wouldn't). Altaria in met by Rhydon, Rock Blast hits for 75% on the DD, then trades with a 45% Dragon Breath for the KO. Kingdra in, met by Raichu who immediately T-Waves, throw a Flash at it while it DDs, then trade a 33% Thunderbolt for a Body Slam OHKO. Banette comes in, Screeches on a pull paralysis and KOed with Hyper Beam. Salamence in, Xatu meets to Revive Raichu, lives a Crunch (!) in the process to potion up Seaking. Raichu in, immediately dies. Oops. Seaking in, trades Dragon Claw (60%) for Ice Beam (60% pre Sitrus). Switch to Muk to eat a Rock Slide and potion Seaking back up, Ice Beam KOs from 60%.
mvp: shared, all pulled weight

Wallace: Level update, everyone is 46 except Muk who is 50 and Seaking at 47, expect some potion spam. Raichu leads this time, TBolts Wailord for 80%, eats Water Spout for 40%, and KOs. Gyarados in, immediately OHKOd. Whiscash in, met by Xatu, Sunny Day on Amnesia, Solar Beam crits through Amnesia to OHKO (3HKO a reasonable assumption when Whiscash Amnesias a second time). Tentacruel in, met by Raichu to Thunder Wave but who is outsped and OHKOed by Sludge Bomb. Rhydon in with Sun up, dead to Hydro Pump. Banette in, eats a Toxic, Hydro Pump, and Sludge Bomb without doing anything because I forgot about Clear Body. Use Seaking to heal it up and try again, bulky enough to live 2x Sludge Bomb. This time Banette trades Will-O-Wisp for Toxic+Hydro Pump (I've missed so many Willos...) before dying, Muk in. Muk eats two Hydro Pumps for ~33% each, Thunderbolt hitting back for 25ish%. Tentacruel is out of Hydros at this point and can only Sludge Bomb me for 16% or Ice Beam for 20%. I burn both of his last(?) Full Restores in exchange for healing Raichu, some time later Tentacruel falls. Ludicolo and Milotic vs healthy Muk / Raichu / Xatu at this point. Ludicolo in met by Muk, Ludicolo attempts to Double Team, trolls with misses to get a couple Surfs off, and is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb (88%) burning Wallaces actual last Full Restore in the process, Surf dealing 29% to Muk. Milotic in, met by Raichu, trades Thunder Wave for Toxic. Lives a Surf before dying to Toxic damage, dealing 40% for Milo with Tbolt. Muk in, Screech, Screech, Screech, Sludge Bomb gg (would have gged after two but Recover happened), taking a critical hit Surf for 79% in the process.
mvp: Muk

By the by this should be all the evidence required to secure Muk for all the games into D rank, much of its ranking was contingent on its E4 performance and, when playing as I prefer to do, it shone, tanking hits for days across all E4 members and specifically standing up to Glacia and Wallace's biggest threats more or less on its own.



edit: quick check of the F ranks, Goldeen performed about how I would expect Horsea to, just 6 gyms sooner, and is distinctively better than the rest of F. In E tier, its performance seems directly comparable to the curve of Wurmple, Seedot, and Poochyena. Seems like a pretty clear cut case for E with my run evidencing its overall performance.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't understand your argument here. Xatu was level 45. A Girafarig trying to set up on Whiscash is going to take at least that many with Earthquake smashing away at it. Given you're probably setting up on Wailord, I still expect you to take 4-5 potions given the 12 level disadvantage and relative power/bulk constraints.

It's easier for Girafarig to set up on Wailord's Hydro Pumps than it is for Xatu to set up on Wailord's Blizzards (thus enabling Girafarig a better opportunity to clean sweep from turn 1 instead of Xatu waiting for Whiscash to come out to start doing the same), and even the threat of Rain-boosted Pumps can be somewhat neutralized by reaching +2 by the time Wailord attacks.

I also disagree and believe the exact opposite in fact. Availability advantage is likely the main reason its worth using at all, delaying to Lilycove when all of your future training against Water routes is terrible. As I've detailed throughout the run training a level 10 Goldeen was not onerous due to the fighting gym providing experience fodder for Peck and Horn Attack being overpowered at the time you get it.

Yeah well what about after Brawly? Goldeen doesn't do anything except pick off route trainers, and Horn Attack no longer becomes 'overpowered' after Gym 3 (honestly Horn Attack being overpowered is already pretty debatable in the hands of a non-STAB user) when trainers with 40-60 BP STABs will overshadow Goldeen real quick, with only the level advantage being what keeps it going.

No particular comment on the comparison, Raichu was generally frail and took a notable amount of time to get going, didn't pick up until after Tate and Liza and didn't become powerful until Juan. With it's acquisition being as late as it is (and two large routes+Winona is a significant difference from mid-game Manectric) I have no incentive to suggest it to change ranks. It performed mostly as expected for its position.

Another perk Electrike has over Pikachu is Winona. While you can certainly go straight to Safari Zone and get Pikachu for Winona, it requires a major detour in comparison to Electrike. Furthermore, Electrike has a friendlier evolution advantage in comparison to Pikachu which requires either luck with Light Ball or getting shards for Thunderstone.

How exactly is a simple backtrack from the Safari Zone to Winona a "significant/major detour"? Yes, going all the way back to Route 119 (the Bug trainers route) just to grind Pikachu could be considered a tad inefficient, but you're already crossing Route 120 to return to Winona anyway and all the trainers are avoidable, so you could simply fight those trainers on the way back to get Raichu up to speed. Heck, you have to cross a quarter of the way into Route 120 to get the Devon Scope just to reach Winona in the first place, so what's the harm in extending just a bit further to get Pikachu before heading back? Also, the Thunderstone is available in New Mauville, which pretty much everyone is going through anyway to complete the sidequest and get the Thunderbolt TM, so idk what's the deal here.

I wouldn't give BB and Light Screen too much credit. Brick Break helps coverage wise but Raichu's Attack is tolerable at best and there are a lot of other Pokemon that could use the move (some Fighting-types like Hariyama). I wouldn't call its BB shenanigans against Glalie that high but I guess it is something a lot of Electric-types fail to do in the process. I just think the niche isn't groundbreaking when Medicham or Thick Fat Hariyama can clear the field more efficiently.

Yeah Brick Break is a tad gimmicky since it's not as necessary as Light Screen when it comes to soloing Glacia. Still, this is partly why I rate Raichu pretty highly; Raichu's contributions in this one fight (namely the ability to solo it) are more meaningful than whatever early Electrike is doing in numerous important matchups that isn't killing RS Maxie/Archie's Golbat and spreading paralysis.

Considering we're arguing for Electric types to share similar ranks I don't see any reasonable argument for using other Psychic's comparative advantages (of which Xatu has its own) as justification to hold Xatu down.

Yeah the difference is that Pikachu comparison has very distinct advantages (no TBolt TM consumption, TWave access, Light Screen) over mid-game Electrike, both of which are obtained in a similiar period, to warrant sharing the rank. For a Psychic-type, Xatu is only available pretty damn late, and one of the other late-game Psychic-types in Girafarig actually has a couple of advantages in combination over its competition, namely setting up on Phoebe and TBolt access to better smash Water bosses. Xatu's only real claims to fame are SolarBeam and a Ground immunity, which I guess gives it the weird niche of setting up on Whiscashes, but this advantage is mitigated since the Calm Minders could already be setting up on something else while Xatu comes saddled with annoying Ice and Rock weaknesses, so I believe this rather unfavorable tradeoff puts it behind its brethren.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It's easier for Girafarig to set up on Wailord's Hydro Pumps than it is for Xatu to set up on Wailord's Blizzards (thus enabling Girafarig a better opportunity to clean sweep from turn 1 instead of Xatu waiting for Whiscash to come out to start doing the same), and even the threat of Rain-boosted Pumps can be somewhat neutralized by reaching +2 by the time Wailord attacks.

I'm sure Girafarig isn't appreciating Wailord's Double-Edges once the equation flips no?

Yeah well what about after Brawly? Goldeen doesn't do anything except pick off route trainers, and Horn Attack no longer becomes 'overpowered' after Gym 3 (honestly Horn Attack being overpowered is already pretty debatable in the hands of a non-STAB user) when trainers with 40-60 BP STABs will overshadow Goldeen real quick, with only the level advantage being what keeps it going.

I think at this point the pertinent argument is the comparison to the trajectories of Wurmple/Poochyena/Seedot

How exactly is a simple backtrack from the Safari Zone to Winona a "significant/major detour"? Yes, going all the way back to Route 119 (the Bug trainers route) just to grind Pikachu could be considered a tad inefficient, but you're already crossing Route 120 to return to Winona anyway and all the trainers are avoidable, so you could simply fight those trainers on the way back to get Raichu up to speed. Also, the Thunderstone is available in New Mauville, which pretty much everyone is going through anyway to complete the sidequest and get the Thunderbolt TM, so idk what's the deal here.

Personally I won't (and didn't) skip through route 119/120/Weather Institute/Winona solely to grind a Pikachu, nor do I think most people would. If you want to use that as an argument to say that Pikachu comes at the same time as mid-game Manectric that's fine but it doesn't carry weight with me. But really I'm not getting into Manectric arguments anymore, I've had enough of that.

For a Psychic-type, Xatu is only available pretty damn late, and one of the other late-game Psychic-types in Girafarig actually has a couple of advantages in combination over its brethren, namely setting up on Phoebe and TBolt access to better smash Water bosses. Xatu's only real claims to fame are SolarBeam and a Ground immunity, which I guess gives it the weird niche of setting up on Whiscashes, but this advantage is mitigated since the Calm Minders could already be setting up on something else while Xatu comes saddled with annoying Ice and Rock weaknesses, so I believe this rather unfavorable tradeoff puts it behind its brethren.

I don't see how or agree that any of this is sufficient justification not to place Xatu firmly in D rank. Xatu had a very strong performance despite its late acquisition, it was self-sufficient, performed well in boss fights, I found its typing to be an asset, and it was well above the levelof things like Claydol, Altaria, or Dodrio. If anything I would think you should argue Girafarig for C rank if its availability doesn't penalize it too heavily in that regard. As you say, it seems to have clear strengths inherent to it in the ability to potentially solo Juan, Phoebe, Glacia, and Wallace.

Put another way, I'm nominating Xatu to come to D rank and Banette to stay in D rank, and the performance of my run has shown Xatu to be definitively better than Banette. What justification is there for Xatu to fall?

 

[Colonel M]

How exactly is a simple backtrack from the Safari Zone to Winona a "major detour"? Yes, going all the way back to Route 119 (the Bug trainers route) just to grind Pikachu could be considered a tad inefficient, but you're already crossing Route 120 to return to Winona anyway and all the trainers are avoidable, so you could simply fight those trainers on the way back to get Raichu up to speed. Also, the Thunderstone is available in New Mauville, which pretty much everyone is going through anyway to complete the sidequest and get the Thunderbolt TM, so idk what's the deal here.

Mostly because you have to treck towards the area, treck back, and then re-treck the area when all you have to do with Manectric is just force a scenario a little earlier that shouldn't take away any time. Since you lack Fly, that's also a lot of time lost.

As for the Thunderstone, you could argue that the Game Corner is probably a faster way to get Thunderbolt without wasting your time Surfing and arriving into New Mauville while doing the puzzle inside. While the detour probably isn't a major deal in the grand scheme of things, it still is an annoyance since the puzzle, surfing, and talking to Wattson is probably a bit longer than just dumping money for the Thunderbolt TM. It's not a huge detriment, and I admit I forgot the Thunderstone is in there, but it's still a detour that can cost time.

Yeah Brick Break is a tad gimmicky since it's not as necessary as Light Screen when it comes to soloing Glacia. Still, this is partly why I rate Raichu pretty highly; Raichu's contributions in this one fight (namely the ability to solo it) are more meaningful than whatever early Electrike is doing in numerous important matchups that isn't killing RS Maxie/Archie's Golbat and spreading paralysis.

Again, another problem is the competition for Brick Break on top of the niche that Raichu is doing within Glacia isn't that unique nor something I'd really argue warranted. Maybe under extreme constraints I could see it being an alternative, but it's not something that really gives Raichu any real viability for its cost. While Shock Wave Electrike has some costs alongside it, being STAB and the number of mons that really want a 60 BP Electric move isn't as steep. Most of the other mons want it for coverage and some of those mons either come later (Spoink), need trade to be top in effectiveness (Abra), or are lower ranked (Koffing). Meanwhile, Brick Break is still kind of wanted on some Pokemon like late game Thick Fat Hariyama because Drum + Brick Break should easily cleave through Glacia while still being competent vs Sydney (shouldn't need to Drum for this fight honestly). Yama still is fairly good against Steven too.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Mostly because you have to treck towards the area, treck back, and then re-treck the area when all you have to do with Manectric is just force a scenario a little earlier that shouldn't take away any time. Since you lack Fly, that's also a lot of time lost.

As for the Thunderstone, you could argue that the Game Corner is probably a faster way to get Thunderbolt without wasting your time Surfing and arriving into New Mauville while doing the puzzle inside. While the detour probably isn't a major deal in the grand scheme of things, it still is an annoyance since the puzzle, surfing, and talking to Wattson is probably a bit longer than just dumping money for the Thunderbolt TM. It's not a huge detriment, and I admit I forgot the Thunderstone is in there, but it's still a detour that can cost time.


Again, another problem is the competition for Brick Break on top of the niche that Raichu is doing within Glacia isn't that unique nor something I'd really argue warranted. Maybe under extreme constraints I could see it being an alternative, but it's not something that really gives Raichu any real viability for its cost. While Shock Wave Electrike has some costs alongside it, being STAB and the number of mons that really want a 60 BP Electric move isn't as steep. Most of the other mons want it for coverage and some of those mons either come later (Spoink), need trade to be top in effectiveness (Abra), or are lower ranked (Koffing). Meanwhile, Brick Break is still kind of wanted on some Pokemon like late game Thick Fat Hariyama because Drum + Brick Break should easily cleave through Glacia while still being competent vs Sydney (shouldn't need to Drum for this fight honestly).

To add to this, I'd argue that Raichu is better served pushing for Thunderbolt 2HKOs vs the Glalie's rather than trying to get cute with Brick Break of Light Screen (though Screen is justifiable if you feel you need to tank Ice Beams)

edit: conveniently, I can actually test Girafarig myself, alongside Light Ball Pikachu since my save state was at the Safari Zone (with TMs already committed to Xatu though, unfortunately).

edit2: by the by for the resource constraint argument, at this point in the game I am at the Safari Zone and have reached Lilycove for Fly purposes. I have already purchased one Psychic TM that was taught to the Xatu pre-state save, and must now go to the game corner to get Psychic and Thunderbolt for Girafarig. My current money? 155k, enough to purchase both additional game corner TMs Colonel M (I will note that I'm a bit stingy, most players I'd expect would have to wait until they clear out Mt. Pyre and the accompanying route to afford their second)

edit3: just for sake of clarity, I'll be redoing this last third of a run with the team of Light Ball Pikachu / Girafarig / Seaking / Swellow / Sableye / Muk. If there's something that I can acquire in place of Seaking / Swellow / Muk without investing too much time training please hit me up with a suggestion.

 

[Punchshroom]

Mostly because you have to treck towards the area, treck back, and then re-treck the area when all you have to do with Manectric is just force a scenario a little earlier that shouldn't take away any time. Since you lack Fly, that's also a lot of time lost.

Considering you have to trek partway into Route 120 already (for the Devon Scope), it really doesn't take away much time at all. You'd still want to fight most of those trainers (such as the Milotic trainer) with Manectric anyway since they're easy matchups and offer high EXP, so I don't even see Pikachu's slightly later availability as a cost whatsoever.

As for the Thunderstone, you could argue that the Game Corner is probably a faster way to get Thunderbolt without wasting your time Surfing and arriving into New Mauville while doing the puzzle inside. While the detour probably isn't a major deal in the grand scheme of things, it still is an annoyance since the puzzle, surfing, and talking to Wattson is probably a bit longer than just dumping money for the Thunderbolt TM. It's not a huge detriment, and I admit I forgot the Thunderstone is in there, but it's still a detour that can cost time.

there would be very very few people that you can convince to fork over 80k just to save a couple minutes of time at most, especially if they have other TMs they wish to purchase.

Edit: actually I am certain that the act of buying 500 coins 8 times to get up to Tbolt buying price takes only ~2 minutes less than the entire trip to and from New Mauville with 2 Super Repels on, in addition to being a shitton more costly.

Again, another problem is the competition for Brick Break on top of the niche that Raichu is doing within Glacia isn't that unique nor something I'd really argue warranted. Maybe under extreme constraints I could see it being an alternative, but it's not something that really gives Raichu any real viability for its cost. While Shock Wave Electrike has some costs alongside it, being STAB and the number of mons that really want a 60 BP Electric move isn't as steep. Most of the other mons want it for coverage and some of those mons either come later (Spoink), need trade to be top in effectiveness (Abra), or are lower ranked (Koffing). Meanwhile, Brick Break is still kind of wanted on some Pokemon like late game Thick Fat Hariyama because Drum + Brick Break should easily cleave through Glacia while still being competent vs Sydney (shouldn't need to Drum for this fight honestly). Yama still is fairly good against Steven too.

I feel like there has been a bit of misrepresentation here. What I rate highly in Raichu isn't the access to Brick Break specifically (it merely helps if you can afford it). What I value Raichu for is its ability to more comfortably solo Glacia thanks to Light Screen, something Manectric cannot do. For a mon that is so closely compared to Manectric in stats, playstyle, and matchups, this is a notable advantage Raichu has over Manectric. Sure maybe Manectric's marginal power advantage can let it occasionally eek out a few KOes here and there that Raichu may miss out on, but they aren't as impactful as Raichu's Glacia matchup.

 

[Kurona]

The trip to New Mauville is so short as to be completely negligible. I don't know why it's being considered in terms of convenience and time saving at all.

 

[Punchshroom]

Texas Cloverleaf On the subject of Girafarig, it only really needs Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Calm Mind, and I haven't really thought about a last move for it since I just kept Strength on it for the rest of the game. However, if you can afford them, I imagine neat 4th moves being Light Screen to make setup even easier or Agility to eliminate any need for X Speeds (or X items in general). Baton Pass as a gimmicky move to help keep the pain train going or, if you leveled up to 49 before fighting Phoebe, Crunch just makes the matchup even more trivial, though these moves are hardly that important. Just a thought on how you could further improve Girafarig's performance in case you couldn't decide on its 4th move.

You also said something about Xatu being definitively better than Banette in your run. However, it's quite the opposite, but that may be because I've managed to fit Thunderbolt and Calm Mind onto mine, whereas you went the full physical route and even included Hyper Beam in your Banette's moveset (I can't imagine what else your Banette had, Will-O-Wisp maybe?). It's no surprise that Shuppet requires some babying before it could hold its own, but Thunderbolt singlehandedly allows Shuppet to 1v1 way more things than it should. Shuppet is available earlier than Pikachu, so it's even less of a detour to grab one to Thunderbolt the Bug Maniacs and Bird Keepers on the way back, as well as fry some of Winona's trainers and even her own Pelipper. After beating her you can ascend Mt. Pyre to finally get the Shadow Ball TM, and then from there Shuppet shouldn't have too much issues beating Team Grunts, Swimmers, and even Tate&Liza's gym trainers if you're ambitious, until it evolves into Banette to start putting in work against Tate&Liza and Wallace/Juan. In the E4, Banette can attempt to slug it out vs Phoebe and its lack of an Ice weakness lets it better set up against Glacia and Wallace (even has an immunity to Wailord's Double-Edge), and even then its E4 performance is not that great overall. Still, better time than what Xatu has going for it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Boggles my mind that we can so consistently see the same thing completely differently

My opinions:
- Banette is not better than Xatu
- Banette is not a better CM user than Xatu
- Banette has a much harder time setting up being significantly slower, significantly frailer, and with a worse typing to do so
- If you're not focusing on Banette's amazing attack stat you're doing it wrong
- Anything Shuppet/Banette can Thunderbolt it can kill faster with Shadow Ball



I really, really, really don't understand how you're able to argue Xatu for E, I truly don't see a single legitimate justification for it. It's a high end D tier, through and through.



re: giraffe agility was what I'd noted if I don't end up needing strength

 

[Punchshroom]

Texas Cloverleaf I know my posts can be rather lengthy to respond to, but could you at least provide a bit more substance to your counterarguments?

- Banette is not better than Xatu

Even as a Shuppet, I've found it quite serviceable since it had nice tools such as Thunderbolt and Will-O-Wisp to let it win more battles than its stats would imply (it didn't have much trouble killing things on the backtrack to Fortree and in Winona's gym) while carrying great lategame value, and its Spell Tag-boosted Shadow Ball is still a pretty strong attack. As for Banette itself...

- Banette is not a better CM user than Xatu
- Banette has a much harder time setting up being significantly slower, significantly frailer, and with a worse typing to do so

As far as bulk goes, Xatu's 65/70/70 bulk is not leagues ahead of Banette's 64/65/63, so already this point is shot down. Banette's slower yes, which could be significant when it comes to setting up Wallace's Wailord as well as dealing with Phoebe's own Banettes, but other than that its Speed doesn't get in the way too much when setting up or smacking things (it beats down Tate&Liza and Wallace/Juan all the same), plus if one is really concerned one could use an X Speed or two in the midst of Calm Minding before going to town. Not to mention that I really don't see how Banette's typing is worse than Xatu's for setting up; Banette can set up on Glacia's Sealeos (then again, so can every other Calm Minder, so this is yet another a point against Xatu if anything), and with Will-O-Wisp it has the unique quality of setting up on Wallace's Gyarados. Wisp also lets Banette 1v1 Whiscash who would otherwise stop the TBolt rampage. Finally, Banette's Normal immunity gives it additional bonuses against opponents such as Wallace/Juan's Seaking, Emerald Sidney's Crawdaunt, Sidney's Absol, Emerald Drake's Kingdra, Wallace's Double-Edge Wailord, Glacia's Sealeos, which Banette can either beat down 1v1 with help from Wisp or find more/easier setup opportunities. Banette is also quite versatile in the Steven matchup: it can easily kill Skarmory and Claydol without any need for setup, use Wisp + Shadow Ball to 1v1 the fossils (as well as Calm Mind to weaken Cradily's Giga Drain), use burnt Aggron as Calm Mind fodder, and even potentially stop Metagross with a pinch Will-O-Wisp.

Meanwhile Xatu can set up on Whiscash easier, hooray? (Wisp Banette also sets up on Whiscash btw)

- If you're not focusing on Banette's amazing attack stat you're doing it wrong

Who said anything about ditching Banette's Attack stat? Banette doesn't even have the physical movepool to round out its set in the first place (LOL unSTAB Hyper Beam); all you're doing is tunnel visioning Banette's assets by making it an all-out attacker and ignoring the other things it can and probably should be doing. Shadow Ball + Thunderbolt is plenty sufficient coverage anyway, especially for lategame.

- Anything Shuppet/Banette can Thunderbolt it can kill faster with Shadow Ball

The difference between Muk using Thunderbolt and Banette using Thunderbolt is that Banette can set up. This means that Banette has the option of setting up and clean sweeping Water bosses, which is way more efficient than duking it out in a back-and-forth slugfest which Banette does not have the bulk and Speed for.

I really, really, really don't understand how you're able to argue Xatu for E, I truly don't see a single legitimate justification for it. It's a high end D tier, through and through.

Maybe I've been too harsh on Natu and probably should have just nommed Girafarig to C from the beginning, but I maintain my stance that Xatu isn't better than Banette, much less high D tier.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Texas Cloverleaf I know my posts can be rather lengthy to respond to, but could you at least provide a bit more substance to your counterarguments?

I don't really see a point frankly. Your arguments are consistently biased and one-sided representations and every argument we have we're shouting into a void because neither of us agrees with the others perspective let alone arguments. I also really, really, don't care to spend 20-40 minutes of my life howling into a void at you every few days when you have virtually never been swayed by anyone else positions or arguments, and certainly not my own. I have better things to be doing with my life than to chirp back and forth at someone who cannot be convinced.

Even as a Shuppet, I've found it quite serviceable since it had nice tools such as Thunderbolt and Will-O-Wisp to let it win more battles than its stats would imply (it didn't have much trouble killing things on the backtrack to Fortree and in Winona's gym) while carrying great lategame value, and its Spell Tag-boosted Shadow Ball is still a pretty strong attack. As for Banette itself...

As I've stated throughout my updates I also found Shuppet serviceable. It was incredibly strong with its Shadow Ball allowing it to OHKO many more things than your typical LC mon. Will-o-wisp saw little use throughout the run barring some niche situations vs Normal types as simply using Shadow Ball was more effective. I did not use Thunderbolt on mine as the available TM went to Muk, but I don't believe there are many enemies for which Shadow Ball wouldn't outdamage anyway (only Sharpedo comes to mind). I also didn't skip Fortree/Winona/Route 119/120 because that's dumb and unnecessary for every Pokemon except for a select few that need that training opportunity because the following routes are inhospitable to it (had I chosen to do so, Rhyhorn is a valid example of this) - Shuppet is not one of these.

As far as bulk goes, Xatu's 65/70/70 bulk is not leagues ahead of Banette's 64/65/63, so already this point is shot down. Banette's slower yes, which could be significant when it comes to setting up Wallace's Wailord as well as dealing with Phoebe's own Banettes, but other than that its Speed doesn't get in the way too much when setting up or smacking things (it beats down Tate&Liza and Wallace/Juan all the same), plus if one is really concerned one could use an X Speed or two in the midst of Calm Minding before going to town. Not to mention that I really don't see how Banette's typing is worse than Xatu's for setting up; Banette can set up on Glacia's Sealeos (then again, so can every other Calm Minder, so this is yet another a point against Xatu if anything), and with Will-O-Wisp it has the unique quality of setting up on Wallace's Gyarados. Wisp also lets Banette 1v1 Whiscash who would otherwise stop the TBolt rampage. Finally, Banette's Normal immunity gives it additional bonuses against opponents such as Wallace/Juan's Seaking, Emerald Sidney's Crawdaunt, Sidney's Absol, Emerald Drake's Kingdra, Wallace's Double-Edge Wailord, Glacia's Sealeos, which Banette can either beat down 1v1 with help from Wisp or find more/easier setup opportunities. Banette is also quite versatile in the Steven matchup: it can easily kill Skarmory and Claydol without any need for setup, use Wisp + Shadow Ball to 1v1 the fossils (as well as Calm Mind to weaken Cradily's Giga Drain), use burnt Aggron as Calm Mind fodder, and even potentially stop Metagross with a pinch Will-O-Wisp.

Going to start off first by saying that your first line is part of the reason I don't care to engage because your argumentation is infuriating and retarded. No, quoting stats does not mean that "this point is shot down". Saying that doesn't make it true, and its disingenuous to present it as such which only reinforces the perspective of your abject bias in these nominations.

Secondly, setting aside the fact that the stats are definitionally superior (9% physical. 12% special), you have chosen to ignore two relevant aspects of in-game bulk, typing and speed.

Xatu's typing is objectively superior. Banette carries no meaningful resistances outside of Normal type. If it ever gets into a slugfest, it will sometimes win if it is faster but will always take a notable amount of damage. Taking a battle vs a wild Tentacruel as an example, Tentacruel will outspeed and hit with two Bubblebeams for roughly 70% while Banette 2HKOs in return. In contrast, Xatu carries what is functionally the same resistance to Fighting as Banette while also resisting Grass and Psychic, types and moves commonly carried by wild trainers meaning that, in concordance with Xatu's roughly 10% better bulk, it will consistently be able to take more accumulated hits and damage than Banette can.

Furthermore, speed is a relevant component of bulk in the context of in-game. As you well know, with the relevance of 1 and 2HKOs against in-game mons outspeeding your enemy means you will consistently be taking one fewer hit per battle than a different mon that does not outspeed, whether that be damage or status. Xatu carries a significant advantage in this department (base 95 to base 65). Taking my run as experiential evidence, the difference in speed between Xatu and Banette was 108 to 68. This was the difference between Xatu outspeeding 98% of enemies (as evidenced by the Juan fight, only the E4 outsped) and Banette getting outsped by wild trainers on a consistent basis, at an estimate outspeeding roughly 50% of enemies from Juan through Victory Road. This was also the case as a Shuppet.

Combining the above factors, Xatu has a superior defensive typing, superior defensive stats, and gets hit significantly less often, meaning that as a whole it is significantly better defensively than Banette.

And if you need any further examples of why we do not see eye to eye on these issues its your insistence that it's a valuable or correct strategy to make Banette's primary role a Calm Mind sweeper with an unstabbed Thunderbolt.

Will-o-wisp is overrated and I find it very amusing that you think Banette can ever get off an emergency Will-O-Wisp against Metagross as if it isn't immediately getting outsped and destroyed by a Meteor Mash. You also oversell it vs Claydol, Banette will lose that matchup because it will not outspeed or OHKO with Shadow Ball and will also be destroyed by two Earthquakes or Psychics. It makes me question if you're arguing these positions as if someone has grinded their team up to mid-high 50s before challenging the Champion which is obviously not a realistic representation.


I've said all along that I found Banette to be solid and what I expected it to be, the arguments you're presenting here push it as an all out world beater which is beyond ridiculous.

Maybe I've been too harsh on Natu and probably should have just nommed Girafarig to C from the beginning, but I maintain my stance that Xatu isn't better than Banette, much less high D tier.

There's no maybe about it. You've taken your narrow view of what is valuable and tunnel visioned into a negative framing of Xatu.

From my perspective Xatu is clearly better than Banette, and even if you disagree with that there is no rational argument that it is so bad it should be held down in E.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't really see a point frankly. Your arguments are consistently biased and one-sided representations and every argument we have we're shouting into a void because neither of us agrees with the others perspective let alone arguments. I also really, really, don't care to spend 20-40 minutes of my life howling into a void at you every few days when you have virtually never been swayed by anyone else positions or arguments, and certainly not my own. I have better things to be doing with my life than to chirp back and forth at someone who cannot be convinced.

Have you? It's awfully convenient of you to cherrypick the arguments to make it seem like I cannot be convinced, when there is an incidence of me being swayed literally right above your post, and which you've also included into your own.

As I've stated throughout my updates I also found Shuppet serviceable. It was incredibly strong with its Shadow Ball allowing it to OHKO many more things than your typical LC mon. Will-o-wisp saw little use throughout the run barring some niche situations vs Normal types as simply using Shadow Ball was more effective. I did not use Thunderbolt on mine as the available TM went to Muk, but I don't believe there are many enemies for which Shadow Ball wouldn't outdamage anyway (only Sharpedo comes to mind). I also didn't skip Fortree/Winona/Route 119/120 because that's dumb and unnecessary for every Pokemon except for a select few that need that training opportunity because the following routes are inhospitable to it (had I chosen to do so, Rhyhorn is a valid example of this) - Shuppet is not one of these.

Backtracking to Route 119 could be considered excessive, but as I've said numerous times already, one already has to venture into Route 120 before being able to fight Winona at all. One could merely extend just a little into Route 121/Safari Zone and then conveniently grinding against the trainers on the way back to Fortree, and the only cost I could imagine is if a mon just needs the Aerial Ace TM that urgently to need it to fight the Route 120 trainers, and I can't think of any mons besides Ninjask.

Going to start off first by saying that your first line is part of the reason I don't care to engage because your argumentation is infuriating and retarded. No, quoting stats does not mean that "this point is shot down". Saying that doesn't make it true, and its disingenuous to present it as such which only reinforces the perspective of your abject bias in these nominations.

Yeah because statements like "If you're not focusing on Banette's amazing attack stat you're doing it wrong" without any additional reasoning are totally not on the same level of pretentious. Why are you allowed to shoot down my arguments with one-liners but I can't do the same?

Secondly, setting aside the fact that the stats are definitionally superior (9% physical. 12% special), you have chosen to ignore two relevant aspects of in-game bulk, typing and speed.

Xatu's typing is objectively superior. Banette carries no meaningful resistances outside of Normal type. If it ever gets into a slugfest, it will sometimes win if it is faster but will always take a notable amount of damage. Taking a battle vs a wild Tentacruel as an example, Tentacruel will outspeed and hit with two Bubblebeams for roughly 70% while Banette 2HKOs in return. In contrast, Xatu carries what is functionally the same resistance to Fighting as Banette while also resisting Grass and Psychic, types and moves commonly carried by wild trainers meaning that, in concordance with Xatu's roughly 10% better bulk, it will consistently be able to take more accumulated hits and damage than Banette can.

Furthermore, speed is a relevant component of bulk in the context of in-game. As you well know, with the relevance of 1 and 2HKOs against in-game mons outspeeding your enemy means you will consistently be taking one fewer hit per battle than a different mon that does not outspeed, whether that be damage or status. Xatu carries a significant advantage in this department (base 95 to base 65). Taking my run as experiential evidence, the difference in speed between Xatu and Banette was 108 to 68. This was the difference between Xatu outspeeding 98% of enemies (as evidenced by the Juan fight, only the E4 outsped) and Banette getting outsped by wild trainers on a consistent basis, at an estimate outspeeding roughly 50% of enemies from Juan through Victory Road. This was also the case as a Shuppet.

Combining the above factors, Xatu has a superior defensive typing, superior defensive stats, and gets hit significantly less often, meaning that as a whole it is significantly better defensively than Banette.

- Yes I do acknowledge Banette's issues with Speed and bulk, particularly when it comes to route clearing, which is why despite my praise of Shuppet I have not made any inclination towards nominating it to rise (also it's largely overshadowed by Absol lol). In any case, we already both know that you prioritize route clearing way more than I do.
- You talk about Xatu having an "objectively" better typing, but really all it really has over Banette is the Ground immunity for setting up on Whiscash, and the Psychic resistance for better Tate&Liza survivability (though Banette can make up for this with potential OHKOes against Xatu and Lunatone). Most Fighting opponents at that point cannot even touch Banette at all since they lack coverage, and Xatu's Grass resistance is pretty much irrelevant since all Grass opponents after obtaining Xatu are not difficult in the slightest (Tropius is probably the only remotely challenging one simply because of how tanky it is). On that matter, a large majority of boss trainers' Pokemon that use Normal attacks can present an opportunity for Banette to set up (I've already named them prior). That said, it's not so much about Banette's typing being good, but rather Xatu's typing starting to become a liability as Ice and Rock moves become more common in the lategame, particularly in the E4. So yeah, definitely not objectively better typing.

And if you need any further examples of why we do not see eye to eye on these issues its your insistence that it's a valuable or correct strategy to make Banette's primary role a Calm Mind sweeper with an unstabbed Thunderbolt.

What exactly can't my Banette do that yours can? You have Screech on your Banette that only works when taking down a lone opponent, but by no means can it sustain a sweep, not to mention that Banette is too frail to attempt this strategy against whatever bulky mon it wants to Screech since they're powerful enough to 2HKO Banette before it can even manage to attack. Meanwhile, Calm Mind lets Banette abuse the common setup fodder (as well as Pokemon crippled by burn) to gain the ability to actually maintain a sweep against Water bosses. I don't think you realize just how useful Calm Mind + Thunderbolt can be in general, and it certainly outweighs anything else Banette can learn in its already limited arsenal.

Will-o-wisp is overrated and I find it very amusing that you think Banette can ever get off an emergency Will-O-Wisp against Metagross as if it isn't immediately getting outsped and destroyed by a Meteor Mash. You also oversell it vs Claydol, Banette will lose that matchup because it will not outspeed or OHKO with Shadow Ball and will also be destroyed by two Earthquakes or Psychics. It makes me question if you're arguing these positions as if someone has grinded their team up to mid-high 50s before challenging the Champion which is obviously not a realistic representation.

You're right that I haven't actually let my Banette take on Metagross, since it's wounded after taking down the rest of his members using only a Full Restore (for Skarm's Toxic) and a Hyper Potion. Btw wise guy, Steven's Claydol doesn't even have Psychic; it has Dual Screens of which it very often goes for one of them turn 1, and even if it does EQ Banette immediately, it doesn't OHKO, and I just proceed to burn it and take it down as usual, the only difference being that I need to heal off the unweakened EQ damage. If you consider Wisp overrated (even though it lets Banette turn things like Gyara, Whiscash, and Aggron into fodder), then idk what you're doing with Hyper Beam in your moveset; hitting Absol maybe???

I've said all along that I found Banette to be solid and what I expected it to be, the arguments you're presenting here push it as an all out world beater which is beyond ridiculous.

Aren't you trying to use Banette as an all-out attacker and frankly wasting its moveslots? I never claimed that Banette is a world beater, but even though Xatu does outperform Banette when it comes to route clearing, there's little denying that Banette has overall roughly equal to more favorable boss matchups in comparison:
- In the event that you don't feel like setting up, Banette wins against Sidney's Absol 1v1. In RS Banette has a harder time due to Sharpedo, but in Emerald Banette sets up with impunity on Crawdaunt, while Xatu has to worry about Absol's Rock Slide.
- Largely relegated to fighting Dusclops, but that's better than what Xatu can hope to accomplish against Phoebe.
- Can set up on Sealeo (in Emerald Glacia leads with Sealeo so it's even better); only really has to worry about the Shadow Ball Glalie when attempting the clean sweep. Xatu's weakness gives it a tougher time.
- Admittedly bumpy matchup for Banette since Flygon(s) can present an obstacle against the +6 sweep, but an X Speeded Banette can still win against Flygon 1v1 with Wisp + Shadow Ball. Even ithout setup, Wisp Banette can attempt to 1v1 Altaria.
- There's the risk of Banette being outsped by Wailord, but it's not like Xatu has that easy of a time against it either due to Ice weakness. Whiscash presents the easier setup opportunity for both, but Banette has the additional choice of going after Gyarados as well.
- Banette frankly has an easier time against literally all of Steven's Pokemon compared to Xatu (granted Metagross will still kill both, but X Speeded Banette can at least land a Wisp to cripple it while Xatu is deadweight regardless). Claydol may be the possible exception to this, but even that's hardly a bad matchup for Banette and usually ends in Banette's favor.