Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

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Team: Rattata Lv12

Pretty reliant on luck. Quick Attack won't OHKO Pidgey, so Rattata kind of has to pray that it doesn't get hit by Sand Attack. Gust from Pidgeotto will 2HKO it, which will out damage what Quick Attack will inflict. A pretty poor matchup for Rattata.

Team: Rattata Lv19

Another poor matchup. Scyther is just way too strong. U-Turn will 2HKO Rattata normally, but Scyther will sometimes start with Leer to get in an OHKO. Without a crit, Hyper Fang will only get in a 3HKO. I'd recommend fighting Silver first so you can have Raticate's extra firepower for this fight.

Team: Raticate Lv20

Now that's more like it. Raticate's Bite and Hyper Fang will OHKO Gastly and Zubat respectively. I picked Totodile for this run, so Silver had Bayleef for this fight. Hyper Fang was a 2HKO, while Bayleef was unable to fight back. I have a feeling Quilava would take even less damage. I can't say if Croconaw would put up more resistance. Overall, an easy fight.

Team: Raticate Lv23/Scyther Lv19/Growlithe Lv19

The gym leader we love to hate. Raticate has a rather easy time here. Hyper Fang will OHKO Clefairy for sure. Hyper Fang should be a 3HKO against Miltank, but Super Potion and Milk Drink spam will drag the fight out for a bit longer. For what it's worth, the flinch chance will save Raticate from a few Stomps. Scyther and Growlithe will have some difficulty sweeping thanks to the former's reliance on U-Turn and the shared weakness they have to Rollout.

Thoughts so far:

Raticate
An absolute killer on maps, though it has trouble on the gyms until it evolves. Hyper Fang and the Dark coverage are extremely welcome at these points though. I want to say that Raticate is somewhere in between A and B right now, but I am in the sections where it was designed to perform best (the early game) right now, so things might change as I progress.

Scyther
Pretty excellent if you are willing to go through the annoying process of catching it. You have to be willing to play the game on a Bug Catching contest day or rig the clock to get it at the right time (a process that can be finicky if you're playing the game on an actual console), while also having to stomach its low catch rate of 25. On top of that, you want to make sure you can get one with Technician. If you meet all of these requirements though, you've got yourself a powerhouse who'll be OHKOing anything on a map that doesn't resist it. As Scizor is the focus of the test here, I'll withhold my judgement for now.

Growlithe
Pretty disappointing so far even with Charcoal and Fire Blast. Most opponents on maps will be 2HKOs, but around this point is when trainers will be packing more Water-types to ruin things and some will often use the odd fully evolved Pokemon like that one Raichu in the National Park. The slow experience also doesn't help. I want to say that it's somewhere in between B and C right now, but I'll need to use it in more fights.[/hide]
 
Corsa1r said:
Yeah, looks like Shuckle has been decided upon. Sandshrew sounded like it needed another test, and I was thinking a potential Wooper and Miltank addition from the looks of the single nominations they seem to have here. Any advice on that front or suggestions for a 4th?
Click to expand...

Here are a few things that might be worth a test.
- Gengar (Ryota tested this but another Test might help w a consensus)
-Don’t use Slugma please it’s bad :(
-Jolteon
-Bellsprout?

Also I would love to start doing write upa of consensus mons. I know I tend to skew liberal on mons so I want to help in the best way. As of now, I know few mons are at the consensus point but lmk which Pokémon to write up.
 
MX42 said:
Here are a few things that might be worth a test.
- Gengar (Ryota tested this but another Test might help w a consensus)
-Don’t use Slugma please it’s bad :(
-Jolteon
-Bellsprout?
Click to expand...

I'll probably be using an emulator so Gengar is probably a no go. Either Jolteon or Bellsprout is fine by me, I'll pick up Bellsprout and see how that goes as well.

EDIT: Question, does starter matter when you're doing a starter-less run?
 
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Corsa1r said:
I'll probably be using an emulator so Gengar is probably a no go. Either Jolteon or Bellsprout is fine by me, I'll pick up Bellsprout and see how that goes as well.

EDIT: Question, does starter matter when you're doing a starter-less run?
Click to expand...
Not really. Just use the starter until the team can get on it’s feet while still giving detailed results for the mons you are actually using.

Generally, most teams should be fine after the Silver battle at Azalea (a lot of early mons can have trouble taking the starter, Gastly and Zubat are non-issues) as you get a lot more good options after that point.
 
tl;dr on Shuckle, its only means of reasonably damaging anything is through Bide, which not only is akin to using a Wobbuffet (thus auto F-tier), but is also quite ineffective with its "beautiful" HP stat.

Corsa1r said:
Yeah, looks like Shuckle has been decided upon. Sandshrew sounded like it needed another test, and I was thinking a potential Wooper and Miltank addition from the looks of the single nominations they seem to have here. Any advice on that front or suggestions for a 4th?
Click to expand...
As for Miltank, I am quite confident in B-tier (or A if you count the Lance matchup) as I've tested it recently, but feel free to give it another shot.
Pinsir is also something that could see another test (test mainly for C vs B, I am personally leaning towards B). If you decide not to use Miltank, I also recommend Farfetch'd. I have used it in the past and felt it was D-tier, due to low bulk and relability on both SD and Agility to sweep.

final logs

everything is level 37

Furret: Return 2HKOs Dragonair, but without healing, you beat only one.
Exeggutor: If you put Gyara to sleep, you can set up Sunny Day and 2HKO it with MS SolarBeam. Dragonair can also be 2HKOed, but you need to put it to sleep as well. Overall, if you are lucky, you are taking down a Gyarados and Dragonair
Azumarill: can run through Gyarados with Rollout, as Dragon Rage is a 4HKO. Also beats one Dragonair without healing, but you need to be at full (thus not fight Gyarados)
Dugtrio: cannot beat anything, as it 3HKOs at best and is OHKOed by any Water-type move.

Furret and Exeggutor are level 40, rest is 39

Furret: Return 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel and OHKOs Kadabra, while Dig kills Magneton and Shadow Claw kills Haunter. Be careful of Reflect. Also, Sneasel will force you to heal offscreen if you decide to go against it.
Exeggutor: Sleep Powder Sneasel and set up Sunny Day. MS Solar Beam will OHKO Sneasel. Then Confusion 2HKOs Golbat, while eating an Air Cutter. Then you put Haunter to sleep again and reset up Sunny Day, hoping it won't wake up, and then OHKO it with Confusion. Then switch out against Magneton and, while sun is still active, OHKO Kadabra with Solar Beam.
Azumarill: Unreliable. If you try to Rollout, something comes in and finishes you off, as you are slow and take damage while stacking the boost up. For example, Sneasel damages it enough so Magneton can beat it. Feraligatr damages it enough so Haunter can kill it.
Dugtrio: EQ OHKOs Kadabra and Magneton. Sucker Punch (but not Shadow Claw) OHKOs Haunter and Shadow Claw 4HKOs Golbat, but it beats you unless you crit once.

Eggy is level 42, rest is 43

Furret: takes out Xatu #1 or Jynx, but is 2HKOed by both.
Exeggutor: Takes out Slowbro, but the rest are somewhat inefficient
Azumarill: If you are lucky enough, Rollout will manage to kill Jynx and Xatu #1. However, Eggy will finish it off
Dugtrio: cannot beat anything at all. Everything is 2HKOed at best but it dies easily to any attack.

Same levels

Furret: beats Ariados and Venomoth by 2HKOing them with Return. Can also try muscling through Forry with Surf, but it's gonna take a lot of time.
Exeggutor: Specs Confusion outspeeds and OHKOs Ariados. It also 2HKOs Venomoth and Muk, but Muk OHKOs back with Gunk Shot. Not a great matchup
Azumarill: DCurl + Rollout, if lucky, can beat 4/5 (Crobat will finish it off) of his team. Watch out for Forry's Protect and Muk's Minimize.
Dugtrio: 2HKOs Muk, Ariados, and Venomoth with EQ. The only actually impressive thing bar Archer, in all honesty.

same levels

Furret: Return 2HKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee and 3HKOs Hitmontop, which will 2HKO with Counter. Onix is easily OHKOed by Surf. You are likely taking out Hitmonchan and Onix, though the other Hitmons are possible if AI derps or you get lucky.
Exeggutor: Use MS Solar Beam instead of Confusion, as it outdamages Confusion. MS Solar Beam OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs the rest (Machamp becomes 3HKO). Hitmonchan generally beats you, as it finishes you off with sun-boosted Fire Punch. Machamp is an easy matchup, as you can Sleep Powder it with no risks due to No Guard and it lacking strong neutral moves. The other Htmons also need to be put to sleep in order to not take too much damage.
Azumarill: Waterfall 3HKOs Hitmontop and 2HKOs the oher Hitmons. Onix is OHKOed. Chances are you are only beating Onix and Hitmontop, as the rest hit it quite hard (or have Swagger). You could spam Defense Curls and make yourself untouchable, but it will take some time to set them up.
Dugtrio: EQ 3HKOs Hitmontop, which becomes a 2HKO if it uses Dig. Onix is also defeated. The rest manage to OHKO it with any move.

everything is level 43

Furret: beats only Murkrow.
Exeggutor: beats Vileplume and Gengar with Specs Confusion
Azumarill: Waterfall is an OHKO on rolls on Houndoom, who 3HKOs with Dark Pulse unboosted. Murkrow can also be defeated, but you won't have enough HP to take on Houndoom
Dugtrio: doesn't beat anything at all. Houndoom survives an Earthquake and OHKOs back with Flamethrower.

Against Lance, Azumarill can try taking down Gyarados with Rollout, but it's too slow to beat more. Note that even with an X Speed, it's still slower than even Gyarados, so Azumairll requires a lot of resources to crush more than one Pokemon against him

nominations:

Sentret -> C
So, performance-wise, I think Sentret deserves C-tier. The reason is that it's not only obtainable early, but Furret also helps against Bugsy (it is capable of taking down Scyther if you land 9 Fury Swipes without him healing) and is really handy against most fights. It takes down Jasmine's Magnemites, 2/3 of Pryce's team, can actually beat Chuck if AI derps (which I am not gonna count) and is one of the strongest things to use against Morty, as you muscle through with Shadow Claw. While it lacks power, Dig and Shadow Claw become obsolete on it after Archer and thus you can run two additional HMs, alongside Surf. This makes Furret overall an HM slave that can actually contribute to fights, so I think C-tier is overall a better tier for it than D, because, in short, Sentret does well against some major fights and can do so even with HMs occupying some slots.

Exeggcute -> D
Exeggcute period is really bad. You don't have many positive matchups with it (although it does take down Silver's Croconaw if you picked Cyndaquil) before evolving. Even though Exeggutor's Solar Beam, especially when combined with Specs, hits really hard, Eggy is still super reliant on Sleep Powder RNG because of bad typing. However, I am gonna nom it to D, as it performs well enough to warrant some use, no matter how small it is.

Marill -> D, though personally fine with E
Marill is either somewhat late or is 1% encounter. For most parts, Azumarill is really only doing anything impactful with Rollout and Defense Curl, but that is incredibly hard for it, as it's too slow to take advantage of that (unlike Golem, for example, which has Rock Polish). Overall, it can do great if it gets lucky with Rollout, but the slowness + unreliability make me hesitant to even nom it to D. This may need an additional test, because E is a very possible tier for Marill.

Diglett -> E
Yeah, don't bother with Diglett. First of all, it's rather late into the game and is only 4% encounter, meaning it's gonna be a pain to find. I had some issues grinding it up too, I had to restart against a Camper around 4 times before defeating him. Even after that, Dugtrio has very few good matchups: Jasmine's Magnemite (the only notable thing about this is that it beats them without consuming the Dig TM), Archer, and half of Koga's team. But it's a deadweight in pmuch every other fight, so I think justifying D for this is really hard and you gotta be generous to do so.

Anything else that needs testing that is pre-Rocket Tower? I could use Farfetch'd so we have logs of it if nobody else is gonna use it, though I am confident in D-tier. Taking any requests (so as long as they are before the Rocket Tower).

e: after some private discussions, my next team is gonna be Farfetch'd / Mantine / Machop (No Trade) / Onix (Trade). If someone is gonna use Farfetch'd, I may use something else.
 
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Turdterra Can you update the original post so people can more easily find out what still needs testing? I think it should look something like this.
S
Abra (trade)
Cyndaquil?
Gyarados
Heracross?
Totodile?

A
Aipom
Chinchou
Cyndaquil?
Gastly (trade)
Geodude?
Geodude (trade)
Girafarig?
Heracross?
Mareep?
Miltank?
Raikou?
Rattata?
Spearow
Totodile?

B
Abra
Chikorita?
Dunsparce?
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Gastly
Geodude?
Girafarig?
Larpas
Magmar
Magnemite
Mareep?
Miltank?
Mr. Mime
Onix?
Pinsir
Raikou?
Poliwag (Politoed)?
Rattata?
Scyther
Slowbro
Snubbull?
Spearow?
Tauros
Wooper

C
Bellsprout
Caterpie?
Chikorita?
Dratini
Drowzee
Dunsparce?
Eevee (Espeon)
Eevee (Flareon)
Eevee (Jolteon)
Ekans
Entei
Growlithe
Hoppip
Marowak?
Onix?
Oddish (Vileplume)
Pidgey?
Poliwag
Poliwag (Politoed)?
Sandshrew
Sentret
Snubbull?
Swinub?
Togepi
Zubat?

D
Caterpie?
Diglett?
Eevee (Umbreon)?
Exeggcute
Krabby
Marill
Marowak?
Murkrow?
Pidgey?
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Swinub?
Zubat?

E
Diglett?
Eevee (Umbreon)?
Kangaskhan
Larvitar
Misdreavus
Murkrow?
Shuckle?
Skarmory
Slugma?
Tyrogue (Hitmonchan)
Tyrogue (Hitmonlee)
Tyrogue (Hitmontop)
Yanma?

F
Delibird
Ledyba
Smeargle
Shuckle?
Slugma?
Spinarak
Yanma?
 
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sumwun said:
Turdterra Can you update the original post so people can more easily find out what still needs testing? I think it should look something like this.
S
Abra (trade)
Cyndaquil?
Gyarados
Heracross?
Totodile?

A
Aipom
Chinchou
Cyndaquil?
Gastly (trade)
Geodude?
Geodude (trade)
Girafarig?
Heracross?
Mareep?
Miltank?
Raikou?
Rattata?
Spearow
Totodile?

B
Abra
Chikorita?
Dunsparce?
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Gastly
Geodude?
Girafarig?
Larpas
Magmar
Magnemite
Mareep?
Miltank?
Mr. Mime
Onix?
Pinsir
Raikou?
Poliwag (Politoed)?
Rattata?
Scyther
Slowbro
Snubbull?
Spearow?
Tauros
Wooper

C
Bellsprout
Caterpie?
Chikorita?
Dratini
Drowzee
Dunsparce?
Eevee (Espeon)
Eevee (Flareon)
Eevee (Jolteon)
Ekans
Entei
Growlithe
Hoppip
Marowak?
Onix?
Oddish (Vileplume)
Pidgey?
Poliwag
Poliwag (Politoed)?
Sandshrew
Sentret
Snubbull?
Swinub?
Togepi
Zubat?

D
Caterpie?
Diglett?
Eevee (Umbreon)?
Exeggcute
Krabby
Marill
Marowak?
Murkrow?
Pidgey?
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Swinub?
Zubat?

E
Diglett?
Eevee (Umbreon)?
Kangaskhan
Larvitar
Misdreavus
Murkrow?
Shuckle?
Skarmory
Slugma?
Tyrogue (Hitmonchan)
Tyrogue (Hitmonlee)
Tyrogue (Hitmontop)
Yanma?

F
Delibird
Ledyba
Smeargle
Shuckle?
Slugma?
Spinarak
Yanma?
Click to expand...
Onix has been placed. I believe this is the third time I mentioned this? Could be wrong and may have meant to mention it. I know for a fact I said it was placed.

Aipom isn’t A. B at best. I’ll update when I have time today.

edit: List is undergoing updates and has had its first update.
 
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Resurrected my run. I'm gonna say that since I am busy with RBY at the moment, this HGSS run will likely be on a "when it's done" basis (I started it before my RBY OP got approved I think, judging by the day I started my journey on my Trainer Card). Using Onix (trade most likely) Mareep, Hoothoot and some random fourth mon (maybe Tentacool or Chinchou post-Surf).

Onix (10): Onix actually outspeeds and OHKOS Pidgey with Rock Throw surprisingly. One Screech lets you 2HKO Pidgeotto with Rock Throw. Even though I missed a couple times, I was able to solo easily. Two Screechs let you OHKO Pidgeotto with Rock Throw.

Mareep (11): Thundershock looks to be a range to OHKO while Pidgey does like 6 or 7 damage with Tackle. You and Pidgeotto roughly 3HKO each other respectively, so it’s doubtful you’ll be able to sweep here without backup. Sand-Attack from Pidgey also sucks.

Hoothoot (11): My Modest Hoothoot 4HKOed Pidgey with Peck. You do utterly negligible damage with Peck and get 4HKOed by Gust. So yeah, don’t take on Pidgeotto.
Everyone is level 17.

Flaaffy: Scyther’s U-Turn easily 2HKOs you, but can proc Static while you 2HKO a cocoon switching in. Problem is, Scyther easily comes back in and finishes you off with U-Turn. Also, U-Turn + Quick Attack = dead sheep, so paralysis won’t entirely save you (I couldn’t beat it when it was at half HP).

Hoothoot: 3HKO cocoons, who you can setup Reflect on to make Scyther easier. Problem is, Scyther still 2HKOs with crit Quick Attack (it’s a 4HKO behind Reflect) and you barely scratch it at all. Hoothoot Uproar is a range to 2HKO Metapod.

Onix: Rock Tomb 2HKOs cocoons, while Onix is pretty sturdy against U-Turn (only a 4HKO!) You 2HKO Scyther with Rock Tomb, even through Sitrus Berry. Really, all this matchup is is “will Rock Tomb like me?” You can X Accuracy to ensure it. Also, Onix outspeeds Scyther after one Rock Tomb.
Everyone is level 17.

Hoothoot: Peck 3HKOs Gastly which uses Curse on you. Uproar 3HKOs Zubat. Once again, Bayleef outstalls you similar to the previous bosses. Ugh.

Onix: 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat with Rock Tomb (you outspeed). At -2 Defense, Rock Tomb is a 3HKO on Bayleef (you outspeed). Razor Leaf only 2HKOs.

Flaaffy: Gastly outspeeds but you 2HKO with Thundershock while it seems to spam Spite (though I've seen it Curse more than once over a few attempts). Zubat looks to be a range to OHKO but it can’t really threaten you. Bayleef spams Poisonpowder and Synthesis while Razor Leaf is a 4HKO: this is a clear stalemate.
Whitney: Everyone is level 20.

Onix: Screech into Headbutt lets you 2HKO Clefairy, though watch out for her using Mimic on Screech and Cute Charm. Miltank is honestly awful between Attract (Rocky the Onix is guaranteed to be male) and Stomp flinches.

Only effective versus Miltank with team support if you can slow it down (I used Flaaffy with Cotton Spore and then Taunted it with Onix, though Rock Tomb and a switch can also accomplish this). While it may be unorthodox, you can beat Miltank this way if you reset Taunt every few turns.

On it’s own though…yeah Rocky isn’t super good here, though I’d imagine a female Onix would fare better. You can also get the effect with an X Speed on Clefairy. This matchup isn’t great even with optimal circumstances, despite the fact you can solo without healing. Miltank can actually live two uses of Headbutt at -6 Defense, so, I’m gonna say this matchup is decidedly average. It’s just too much setup. Hilariously, on my last fight before progressing, Onix came in on Miltank and bodied it-it took several turns before she used Attract, and I won despite not using Taunt at all.

Flaaffy: Unboosted Thunder doesn’t even OHKO Clefairy, but Thunder barely 2HKOs Miltank.

I went and got Charge Beam. Clefairy takes about 4 Charge Beams with a Super Potion before going down, so even if RNG hates you should at least get two boosts. I believe with three boosts I OHKOed Miltank with Thunder (you can even OHKO at +2). Miltank 3HKOs with Stomp and since my Fluaffy was male, this matchup is annoying to test thanks to Attract.

It’s worth noting that at +3, you still 2HKO Miltank with Charge Beam. So better than average.

Noctowl: Uproar 3HKOs Clefairy. Miltank’s Stomp is a 4HKO, doing about 20 of your roughly 70 HP. If you’re crazy like me and use Hyper Beam, it impressively knocks Miltank to red, though Miltank is unfortunately faster and you have to dodge flinch RNG.

Uproar seems to be a 4HKO on Miltank. As it turns out, an Uproar + Hyper Beam finishes the job on Miltank, though Uproar can also be RNG-oriented when it ends (I think it ends on flinch too?)

Can't really say how I feel on my mons at the moment as I took a hiatus post-Silver and am only now picking the run back up. Noctowl is definitely better than the sewage of Hoothoot though, Onix was rougher than you'd expect for Whitney, and Flaaffy will be the one I'm most keen to see the performance of going forward. Looking at Mareep's early boss matchups I'd say they are a LOT shakier than they look on paper (Bugsy's Scyther hits too hard, and Faulkner can easily spam Roost).
 
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Team: Raticate Lv24/Scyther Lv20/Growlithe Lv20

Just like with May, the rival fights decline in difficulty after the second one. Raticate and Scyther can both easily dispatch his whole team aside from Magnemite. Growlithe is the opposite. Magnemite and Bayleef are both easy KOs, but Gastly and Zubat's speed can lead to some hax for it. Regardless though, the fight wasn't terribly difficult.

Team: Raticate Lv25/Scizor Lv21/Growlith Lv21

This varied depending on who I used. Raticate is almost a perfect counter here. It immunes Shadow Ball and can O-2HKO everything with Crunch. Scizor can manage everything asides Gengar who can take advantage of its low speed by putting it to sleep and wearing it down with Shadow Ball. Growlithe is similar, only Gengar has an even easier time against it.

Team: Raticate Lv31/Scizor Lv25/Growlithe Lv26/Lapras Lv25

dat level 34 piloswine! Raticate and Scizor can manage on everything outside of it, who can take advantage of the Hail set-up by Seel with Snow Cloak whilst overpowering them with Mud Bomb and Blizzard. For being a Fire-type, Growlithe is pretty bad here as it can't do anything against Seel while Piloswine will slaughter it with Mud Bomb. Fortunately, Lapras has a rather easy time. Specs Thunder will O-2HKO the Seel line, while Surf can take care of Piloswine. It should have the bulk to stomach a Mud Bomb.

Team: Raticate Lv34/Scizor Lv30/Growlithe Lv29/Lapras Lv30

A rather luck-based fight. Scizor can manage things well if you kept Wing Attack on it. I reckon Scyther has an even easier time considering its speed and having STAB on Wing Attack. Raticate isn't that bad for a Fighting weak Pokemon considering how Focus Punch is the main move of the type that is used here. Though it has to be wary of Primeape's Double Team and Poliwrath's Hypnosis. Lapras has similar obstacles to Raticate, except it doesn't have the speed to get past them as well. Growlithe has no chance. Flame Wheel is too weak, Fire Blast is too inaccurate for a fight that thrives on evasion, and it Poliwrath flat out walls it.

Thoughts so far:

Raticate
Still looking promising. It's at a much higher level than the rest of my team for a good reason. Return mows down most trainers if you can get it, and there are a fair amount of Psychics in this game which allows its Dark coverage to shine. While the early game rodent Pokemon are known to decline after a while, this hasn't happened with Raticate quite yet. I'd say it's still in the A-B borderline, but I'm leaning slightly more on an A right now.

Scizor
I decided to use the Pokeathalon Dome to get the Metal Coat needed to evolve it. From my experience, the Stamina course was the best one for farming points. Even then, it still took a fair bit of time to accomplish. At least, in this case, there isn't a luck parameter involved like there is with stealing Metal Coats from Magnemite. At any rate, this is a very big hindrance for what is actually a rather solid Pokemon. It steamrolls maps, especially if you have Technician. Sadly though, I don't believe its current boss performance pays for the points you have to gather as it is often too slow to deal with the major threats. This is especially noticeable with Morty's Gengar. I'd say it is in the B-C borderline for now. As its signature Bullet Punch is kept behind the rather sought after Heart Scales, I'm leaning more on a C. I'm welcome to arguments for a D placement if I'm being honest.

Growlithe
Still pretty mediocre. Fire Blast inaccuracy is still noticeable and while Flame Wheel is nice to have, it can't do anything against non-Water types. Even Strength just doesn't cut it. I am hoping things pick up when it evolves. I'd say it is a very generous C right now. It barely contributes towards bosses and it is generally very matchup dependent.

Lapras
I can definitely understand the B sentiment right now. Two things hold it back. The Union Cave detour (which has to be on a Friday might I add) and the low speed. The latter point matters a lot on bosses, especially Chuck who can easily cripple it. Outside of these drawbacks, this guy is pretty awesome. Specs Surf packs a punch, Thunder is great to have on opposing Water-types and its stats are generally a cut above its opponents right now.
 
On the topic of Lapras, I'd honestly argue A.

I went and caught one immediately after Chuck, so Fly made the detour painless. Emulator shenanigans make the day issue a nonfactor.

Lapras then solos the whole of the Mahogany and Rocket Base sequence effortlessly, with just Surf, Strength and Aurora Beam, by which point it's caught up in level to the rest of your team.

Great against the E4 and Claire as well.
 
PlusC said:
On the topic of Lapras, I'd honestly argue A.

I went and caught one immediately after Chuck, so Fly made the detour painless. Emulator shenanigans make the day issue a nonfactor.

Lapras then solos the whole of the Mahogany and Rocket Base sequence effortlessly, with just Surf, Strength and Aurora Beam, by which point it's caught up in level to the rest of your team.

Great against the E4 and Claire as well.
Click to expand...
It’s more opportune to get it as soon as you get the ability to use Surf. The backtrack isn’t at all bad either and repels exist for Ilex or Union Cave.
 
Turdterra said:
It’s more opportune to get it as soon as you get the ability to use Surf. The backtrack isn’t at all bad either and repels exist for Ilex or Union Cave.
Click to expand...

Thing is it's not great against Chuck and you need a Surfer to get it anyway. Why not just get Chuck out the way and Fly back? You can probably Surf to Cianwood and mess up Chuck in the time it takes to backtrack to and from Azalea.
 
PlusC said:
Thing is it's not great against Chuck and you need a Surfer to get it anyway. Why not just get Chuck out the way and Fly back? You can probably Surf to Cianwood and mess up Chuck in the time it takes to backtrack to and from Azalea.
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Because Lapras misses out on some Route XP. It comes in a bit lower leveled than most of your team. Lapras can also learn Thunder to help with Poliwrath and use Rain Dance to get it to 100% accurate.
 
Turdterra said:
Because Lapras misses out on some Route XP. It comes in a bit lower leveled than most of your team. Lapras can also learn Thunder to help with Poliwrath and use Rain Dance to get it to 100% accurate.
Click to expand...

Rain Dance and Thunder is a good combo on it yes! Thunderbolt is also a good shout later on.

But it doesn't need that route XP. As I said in my original post, when you catch it give it Surf and Strength it will be able to handle the entire Lake of Rage, Rocket Base, Pryces gym, the Radio tower and Claire. By the time you beat Pryce it will have more than caught up in level.

Give that route XP to something that needs it, because Lapras doesn't.
 
just a heads up, per OP, GC TMs are blacklisted so they are out of question for now

I don't see any harm in catching it before Chuck. Bicycle + Repel makes the trip relatively short. And Lapras, while not the best thing to use against Chuck, can do quite well against him with the ThunderDance combo mentioned above (check my logs some pages earlier if you wanna see for yourself) if you need something for him. And, generally, if you are using a team of 4 max, you won't face such Exp. issues that you will need to preserve the routes for Exp. for other teammates (unless you stack them from the same availability, that may cause such issues, but most competent teams won't do that). Not to mention that earlier detour means you are also fighting extra trainers earlier, meaning your team gets bonus Exp., so there's the advantage of catching it as soon as possible (and a factor that, to an extent, negates the need to detour on first place).

Granted, I did nom it to A, but wasn't 100% confident in it, thus the reason why LordDirtyO is testing it atm, so I technically agree with you on Lapras. I just wanted to note that catching it after getting Fly isn't necessarily a more optimal choice (though it beating Chuck was a factor that pushed me to nom it to A rather than B, but that's another topic to discuss). Generally speaking, it's in Lapras's best interest to just catch it as early as possible, whenever you (the player) are gonna do that or no is up to you, but for tiering purposes, that, imo, should be considered.
 
Finally finished my run:

Team: Raticate Lv34/Scizor Lv30/Growlithe Lv29/Lapras Lv30

Raticate and Scizor are walled pretty hard. Growlithe and Lapras have an easy time here. The latter in particular can OHKO everything.

Team: Raticate Lv35/Scizor Lv32/Growlithe Lv30/Lapras Lv30

Raticate and Lapras can both manage everything asides from Meganium who can beat both of them with Petal Dance. Scizor has an even easier time, with only Magnemite being the only member it can't sweep. It probably won't have the same luck if Chikorita or Cyndaquil was my starter though. Growlithe is too liable to hax to be of any use here.

Team: Raticate Lv37/Scizor Lv36/Growlithe Lv32/Lapras Lv35

This is when things start getting tricky. Growlithe is just flat out useless here. Raticate will be getting in 3HKOs at best, with Kingdra completely slaughtering it. Scizor should be good on paper with its Steel-type, but it is easily stalled by Gyarados and one of her Dragonair can use Fire Blast to OHKO it. Lapras is solid against the non-Kingdra members, but the paralysis they can inflict can cripple it when her ace is sent out.

Team: Raticate Lv39/Scizor Lv38/Arcanine Lv36/Lapras Lv40

Raticate can 2HKO most of his rather frail team, but any starter Pokemon he will use will mop the floor with it. As usual, as long as the player started Totodile, Scizor will have an easy time against everything that isn't Magneton. Arcanine has the potential to sweep his whole team, but will eventually be crippled thanks to his low speed. Lapras is in a similar boat, except it is even slower.

Team: Raticate Lv39/Scizor Lv38/Arcanine Lv37/Lapras Lv40

Raticate should be good on paper thanks to it packing Crunch, but by this point it is too frail to withstand anything. Arcanine is decent outside of Slowbro, with Flamethrower O-2HKOing everything. Though the middling speed shows here, with Will's team being able to wear it down. Confuse Ray and Reflect crippling aside, Scizor is pretty great. As to be expected from a Bug-type against a Psychic-type. Lapras was definitely the star though, with its toolbox providing it ways of getting an easy 1 or 2HKO against everything.

Team: Raticate Lv39/Scizor Lv39/Arcanine Lv38/Lapras Lv41

As to be expected from the Elite Four, Raticate can't survive anything. Though Super Fang is actually nice to have against Muk as it can bypass its bulk. Scizor is solid thanks to its Steel-type preventing Toxic abuse, though it can't fight back against his bulkier team members such as Muk and Forretress. Arcanine is very good here, with Flamethrower O-2HKOing every member. Muk is the main weak link, with it needing to rely on Fire Blast's shaky accuracy for good damage. The accuracy matters here as Toxic will take its toll if you keep missing. I'm starting to wonder if everything that isn't Psychic or Ground has trouble against that Muk. Even Lapras, who is decent against everything else, will struggle against it.

Team: Raticate Lv39/Scizor Lv39/Arcanine Lv38/Lapras Lv41

With Bruno specialising in Fighting-types, it's natural that Raticate is nigh useless here. Arcanine isn't too great either as his Pokemon know plenty of Fire-weak moves whilst boasting decent Special Defence stats. Lapras can manage Hitmontop and Onix perfectly fine, but the rest of his team has access to powerful STAB Fighting moves. Scizor is the shining star here, with Agility + Wing Attack allowing it to have a comfortable time. Hitmonchan's Fire Punch is a threat though, and Machamp's Cross Chop can potentially OHKO it.

Team: Raticate Lv39/Scizor Lv40/Arcanine Lv38/Lapras Lv41

This is definitely Raticate's best fight. While it is still rather frail, Super Fang is very nice to have and her Murkrow is fragile enough to go down in a single Return. Scizor has a rather easy time here outside of Houndoom thanks to STAB U-Turn and her team's low physical defences. While Arcanine can dispatch Vileplume with ease, it is too weak to kill Umbreon and Houndoom, giving the latter an opportunity to set-up Nasty Plot. Lapras is too slow to deal with Vileplume, and Houndoom is surprisingly strong against it. It can manage her other team members just fine though.

Team: Raticate Lv40/Scizor Lv40/Arcanine Lv38/Lapras Lv41

Compared to Emerald and RB, the champion fight here is a breeze. Raticate can't sweep, but it can cripple a few of the bulkier Pokemon with Super Fang. If it can outspeed Dragonite and Gyarados, then this can at least allow another Pokemon to finish them off. Outside of Aerodactyl, Scizor just doesn't have the muscle against Lance's other team members. Charizard and the Fire Blast Dragonite will have it down in seconds. Arcanine obviously fails here due to everything in the team resisting Fire. Not even Dragon Pulse is enough to help it against the Dragonite trio. Lapras, however, is almost a perfect counter here. While its speed doesn't do it any favours, it's capable of learning moves that can deal super effective damage against every team member. The only one that isn't STAB is Thunder, and even then the main member that will require it is Gyarados who has a 4x weakness to it. As long as you keep it healthy and give it Choice Specs, Lapras is a safe pick here.

Final thoughts:

Raticate
I'm going with B here. It has an excellent run in the early and midgame, to the point where I was considering an A. By the Radio Tower though, it is too frail to withstand anything that isn't a trainer battle. Even then, by Route 26/27, its low stats were beginning to show even against maps. I never taught it Swords Dance, but I highly doubt it would have the defences to set it up against the likes of Clair and the Elite Four. I'm welcome to C arguments here, but its performance before the Radio Tower convinces me otherwise.

Scizor
I'm giving it a generous C. This guy is extremely hard to obtain; with a combination of the Bug Catching Contest, its catch rate, getting the right ability and grinding at the Pokeathlon Dome to get a Metal Coat. Even with all of these factors, it doesn't quite pay for itself like Abra did in RBY. It learns Bullet Punch too late, and even then you need a Heart Scale. Until then, its speed is problematic. Metal Claw is nice to have as Steel STAB, but its only option for Bug STAB is U-Turn until the incredibly late Level 41 when it gets X-Scissor. Despite my issues with it though, it is still a powerhouse and the Steel type worked wonders against the likes of Koga who could cripple you with Toxic. These aren't enough to hide its faults though and I'm surprised that people used to believe that it was S back in the old tier list. I'm welcome to arguments for a D placement, but I feel that it is just about strong enough for a C.

Arcanine
I'm not sure how much testing it has received if the player uses a Fire Stone right away, but if you're holding out for Flamethrower like I did, I'd definitely put in D. Even with the Johto trainer rosters, Growlithe will begin to struggle by Routes 40 and 41, and it never really recovers until you learn Flamethrower. Fire Blast is too inaccurate and the damage just doesn't cut it on bosses not named Jasmine even with Charcoal equipped. Its non-STAB options are pretty lame as well, with Strength not really doing a whole lot on Fire-resistant foes. Things pick up a bit when you get Arcanine, but you probably won't have it until Routes 26 and 27. Around this point, an influx of Fire-resistant Pokemon show up. On top of that, just like with Scyther, its evolutionary item (Fire Stone) is too annoying to obtain. Either you have to hope Schoolboy Alan will give you one, or you need to waste more time at the Pokeathlon Dome. Not a great pick, especially if you took the route that I used. I'm wondering how much better it would be if you tried to evolve it ASAP as you would need to rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast for STAB. Either way, this Pokemon has many problems with it here.

Lapras
I'm sticking with the B consensus here. The Union Cave detour sucks, with it boasting trainers that are much stronger than your current set-up at that point. It also doesn't help how you have to make sure that you catch it on a Friday. The speed also doesn't do it any favours, leaving it susceptible to status like the ever-annoying confusion. If you can look over these faults, Lapras is a mean boss killer. Chuck and Bruno aside, it has enough in its toolbox to potentially OHKO quite a few of the team members used by the gym leaders. Pryce is a good example of this, with Surf and Thunder doing the job perfectly fine. Lapras doesn't even need that many TMs, only the buyable Thunder. I ran Choice Specs on it, which was probably what gave it the firepower to deal with most of the boss fights. One strat that was recommended was to try Rain Dance on it, which helps out Surf and Thunder some. Either way, Lapras is a solid choice for a Water or Ice pick once you get past the detour.
 
Scyther's placement is mainly as a placement for Scyther, not Scizor. Scyther has the same BST than Scizor (500 BST) but between Rock Smash, U-turn and specially Wing Attack (Lv 21) is one of the best Pokemon with Technician (Swarm Scyther is decent but NOT that good). Its one of the few cases where the No-Trade version is better than the traded version, even without in-game Eviolite.
 
I'm new to this, but I wanted to know if I could run the following team and post my results here.

Cyndaquil, Geodude (Trade), Kenya (Spearow), and Staryu.

My progress will probably be slow after next week because of work. It may take a few weeks for me to get this done.
 
Don’t generally pop in during the first half of weekdays due to work.

Feel free to test what you want. You really don’t need to keep asking if “this team is okay.” The more tests we have, the more info we have on a placement.

As for Scizor, I expected to not be as high as Scyther. And obviously Scyther is not S. That’s even in the OP and on the first page.
 
Just finished a run I was inspired by this thread to do, not an optimal test or anything but I think my experiences are good enough to share my views on a few mons.

Cyndaquil should be A. I went into my run believing Cyndaquil was bordrline S-tier but a few things stood out which I believe relegate it to A tier. Cyndaquil to me is a mon of extremes, it can do extremely well for itself or fall flat on its face. For example, I ended up sweeping Whitney with just my Qwilava spamming Fire Blast, hitting an inaccurate move 3 times in a row and breaking through attract twice to do it. This was, of course, an extremely lucky occurrence, but it's clearly possible, and it's an extraordinary testament to the power and sweeping potential Cyndaquil brings. On the other hand, while I was going through Pryce's gym, I matched against the trainer using Jynx, clicked specs ember not wanting to miss... and failed to ohko, resulting in Jynx getting a lucky freeze (the fact that all fire-moves don't thaw the user is, for the record, complete bullshit) and me having to spend ten turns thawing out before finishing it off. People here have already touched on Fire Blast's inherent accuracy, and that is a flaw worth noting, but what stuck out to me most at that point in the game was Ember's weakness. 40 bp sucks at that stage in the game even in the best of scenarios, and while you're still 2hkoing most targets with specs, it isn't achieving the clean ohkos you would expect Zam's Psybeam/Psychic to do. Of course it gets Lava Plume at 35, and then evolves into Typhlosion a level later, but you're probably gonna get that upgrade at around or immediately after beating Team Rocket (I did, at least), and from there on the matchups for Typhlosion aren't incredibly in its favor. Falls flat vs Clair and Lance, does well against Koga, and is neutral vs the others. Considering its shortcomings in the midgame, and its negative matchups in the late game, I think Cyndaquil is perfectly at home in A. It's the best starter in my opinion, and Fire Blast is a perfect nuke for any big scary mon that doesn't resist it, but it doesn't smash through the game the way I think an S rank should.

And speaking of smashing through the game, Red Gyarados should be S. I know it comes decently late, and that it's movepool can be a little awkward when it first comes, but Gyarados's performance heavily outshines those factors to such an absurd degree that I can't help but see it as S. Gyarados's raw stats carry it through the mid-game, as that 125 base attack makes even Bite sting, allowing it to pretty effectively sweep through route trainers/team rocket, and its bulk and typing lets it easily get into slugfests with the stronger trainers. It has positive matchups vs the remaining four gym leaders, even Clair; its Ice Fang is an incredible weapon vs her, and its natural special defense allows it to take her Kingdra head on, an impressive feat. But of course, once you get to the Elite Four, it's all over. Pop enough candies into it to get to level 44, and you legitimately sweep the entirety of it on your own. Will you DD on with a persim berry attached to avoid Xatu's Confuse Ray (in my battle he Psychic'd turn 1 so I was able to get two DD's off of him) and sweep with bite, Koga you attach a pecha berry to avoid getting poisoned from Ariados's Poison Jab and use it as setup fodder (I got poisoned on the first jab, which prevetned me from getting 4 DDs, which would've allowed me to ohko his Forretress, who I luckily flinched before eating Explosion), and Bruno is so helpless it's not even funny. Karen can threaten you pretty hard with hax in between Umbreon's Double Team and Confuse Ray (I held another persim berry for this fight but of course I start missing my attacks the moment it starts going for Confuse Rays) but is otherwise a solid sweep, and then comes Lance. I led Gyara and sacked both HM slaves to get 3 intimidates off before setting up to +6 and sweeping. Only issue I had was when Ice Fang missed on a Dragonite but it was easily recoverable and considering it's a 95% accurate move that can be chalked up to bad luck on my part. In sweeping the pokemon league with Gyara I only brought out other pokemon to use as sack fodder, it's that fucking good at sweeping. Considering how tough the final fights can be, particularly Lance, I think this is deserving of S-Rank. Its late start pales in comparison to its incredible late-game matchup and its general utility as a bulky, strong as fuck mon. It also makes for a good HM Slave, if that's your thing.

That's all I got, thank you for reading. I plan on doing a more thorough test in the future but I wanted to share these thoughts with you :psyglad:
 
ceal said:
Just finished a run I was inspired by this thread to do, not an optimal test or anything but I think my experiences are good enough to share my views on a few mons.

Cyndaquil should be A. I went into my run believing Cyndaquil was bordrline S-tier but a few things stood out which I believe relegate it to A tier. Cyndaquil to me is a mon of extremes, it can do extremely well for itself or fall flat on its face. For example, I ended up sweeping Whitney with just my Qwilava spamming Fire Blast, hitting an inaccurate move 3 times in a row and breaking through attract twice to do it. This was, of course, an extremely lucky occurrence, but it's clearly possible, and it's an extraordinary testament to the power and sweeping potential Cyndaquil brings. On the other hand, while I was going through Pryce's gym, I matched against the trainer using Jynx, clicked specs ember not wanting to miss... and failed to ohko, resulting in Jynx getting a lucky freeze (the fact that all fire-moves don't thaw the user is, for the record, complete bullshit) and me having to spend ten turns thawing out before finishing it off. People here have already touched on Fire Blast's inherent accuracy, and that is a flaw worth noting, but what stuck out to me most at that point in the game was Ember's weakness. 40 bp sucks at that stage in the game even in the best of scenarios, and while you're still 2hkoing most targets with specs, it isn't achieving the clean ohkos you would expect Zam's Psybeam/Psychic to do. Of course it gets Lava Plume at 35, and then evolves into Typhlosion a level later, but you're probably gonna get that upgrade at around or immediately after beating Team Rocket (I did, at least), and from there on the matchups for Typhlosion aren't incredibly in its favor. Falls flat vs Clair and Lance, does well against Koga, and is neutral vs the others. Considering its shortcomings in the midgame, and its negative matchups in the late game, I think Cyndaquil is perfectly at home in A. It's the best starter in my opinion, and Fire Blast is a perfect nuke for any big scary mon that doesn't resist it, but it doesn't smash through the game the way I think an S rank should.

And speaking of smashing through the game, Red Gyarados should be S. I know it comes decently late, and that it's movepool can be a little awkward when it first comes, but Gyarados's performance heavily outshines those factors to such an absurd degree that I can't help but see it as S. Gyarados's raw stats carry it through the mid-game, as that 125 base attack makes even Bite sting, allowing it to pretty effectively sweep through route trainers/team rocket, and its bulk and typing lets it easily get into slugfests with the stronger trainers. It has positive matchups vs the remaining four gym leaders, even Clair; its Ice Fang is an incredible weapon vs her, and its natural special defense allows it to take her Kingdra head on, an impressive feat. But of course, once you get to the Elite Four, it's all over. Pop enough candies into it to get to level 44, and you legitimately sweep the entirety of it on your own. Will you DD on with a persim berry attached to avoid Xatu's Confuse Ray (in my battle he Psychic'd turn 1 so I was able to get two DD's off of him) and sweep with bite, Koga you attach a pecha berry to avoid getting poisoned from Ariados's Poison Jab and use it as setup fodder (I got poisoned on the first jab, which prevetned me from getting 4 DDs, which would've allowed me to ohko his Forretress, who I luckily flinched before eating Explosion), and Bruno is so helpless it's not even funny. Karen can threaten you pretty hard with hax in between Umbreon's Double Team and Confuse Ray (I held another persim berry for this fight but of course I start missing my attacks the moment it starts going for Confuse Rays) but is otherwise a solid sweep, and then comes Lance. I led Gyara and sacked both HM slaves to get 3 intimidates off before setting up to +6 and sweeping. Only issue I had was when Ice Fang missed on a Dragonite but it was easily recoverable and considering it's a 95% accurate move that can be chalked up to bad luck on my part. In sweeping the pokemon league with Gyara I only brought out other pokemon to use as sack fodder, it's that fucking good at sweeping. Considering how tough the final fights can be, particularly Lance, I think this is deserving of S-Rank. Its late start pales in comparison to its incredible late-game matchup and its general utility as a bulky, strong as fuck mon. It also makes for a good HM Slave, if that's your thing.

That's all I got, thank you for reading. I plan on doing a more thorough test in the future but I wanted to share these thoughts with you :psyglad:
Click to expand...
With these two I can now but Cyndaquil in A (Consensus) and Red Gyarados in S (Consensus). As of note, I’m treating Consensus as a type of time limit now. I’m think the Limit will be 2 weeks from when they get put down on Consensus. This is to allow us to move on from these mons and get more tests in the rest.

Edit: Tier List has updated to reflect Red Gyarados and Cyndaquil.
 
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