Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

[Punchshroom]

For the record, Whimsicott being able to solo Clay is honestly to be somewhat expected, since nearly all the other available Grass-types could do it, such as Lilligant, Servine, Simisage, Maractus, and (arguably) Deerling. Only the Grass-types that may struggle 1v1 with Excadrill, such as Leavanny and Foonguss, should be noted critically.

My experiences with Whimsicott are kinda mixed. Like on one hand, it's pretty good at its job of disruption and is neat in the fact that it's able to provide some "burst utility" in nearly any sort of boss matchup. On the other hand, Whimsicott is pretty far off in terms of efficiency, and its utility may end up unneeded/unnoticed on better structured teams.

I feel that a pretty important aspect of using Whimsicott is instead of evolving Cottonee at level 26, you evolve it at level 28, the level it learns Charm. Charm just makes certain matchups a lot smoother or downright unloseable for Whimsicott, letting it keep itself healthy much more effectively against physical threats such as Clay, Drayden, Marshal (can't cripple Throh, though), and even N's Zekrom, significantly improving Whimsicott's late game performance. This does constrict Whimsicott's movepool though, since it doesn't want to drop any of Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Charm, with maybe a case of Light Screen over Stun Spore before fighting the E4, but otherwise this is the most effective in-game set for Whimsicott anyway so it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

That said, I do have issues with Cottonee's early period, particularly the road to reach Charm which will seem like ages away given how slowly Cottonee kills things (thankfully Cottonee levels up rather quickly, but still), which is why I strongly suggest only going for Charm instead of the better Cotton Guard, since trying to train for that gives you a net loss in efficiency already. Even after all is said and done, Whimsi's route clearing potential is only average at best; sure, Giga Drain's sustain definitely works out for it in that regard, but the lackluster Special Attack can be noticeable. Whimsicott I feel is the perfect example of "effective, but not terribly efficient". For an in-game Grass-type, it lacks the 'boost-to-win' capability that Lilligant and Serperior and Acupressure Maractus lol have, and lacks the coverage that Simisage and Sawsbuck have to clear out individual opponents more quickly. To that end, I do consider Cottonee a more effective Grass-type than say, Sewaddle, but I hesitate to rank it outright higher than the other C Ranks.

Tl'dr: I do agree Cottonee deserves a rise for what it can do, but I think it's still only C Tier worthy for that.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Just beat Lenora. Have Pignite (level 21) Audino (level 20) and Drilbur (level 20).

Tepig Level 6, Gentle IVS + Mook Performance:

HP: 0-3
Attack: 24-31
Defense: 0-26
Sp. Attack: 10-26
Sp. Def: 10-26
Speed: 0-9
Good enough.

Tepig is as you'd expect; great early. Flame Charge has good power, and Pignite has slots to run Tackle/Arm Thrust/Flame Charge/Rock Smash. I did die to a random mook Lillipup crit as Tepig, which caused me disbelief.

Not gonna go over Cress/rivals because they are as you'd expect (kill Lillipup, sit out monkey, though Tepig did kill Cheren's Oshawott a few time without help IIRC).

Level 13 Audino (after I had gotten some EVs), Gentle, Regenerator IVs + Mook Performance:

After Munna football, I got a level 11 Audino, as it is levels 8-11 in the Dreamyard and I'd rather not get a level 4-7 one. Missing out on Pound kinda sucks though. Doubleslap can be annoying with accuracy moves as common as they are, but at least you can TM Work Up right away. That Defense IV kinda sucks but because of the solid everything else it's fine. At level 20, I was still able to take a boosted Retaliate from Watchog in high yellow. Mooks can barely scratch this thing either, though again DoubleSlap can kinda suck. So yeah, good mook performance (though prone to status and the like), but once you get Secret Power, it starts shining really well (like mine did against Lenora).

Drilbur, level 11, Docile, Sand Force IVs + Mook Performance

Pretty good, I'll take em.

Have I mentioned finding Drilbur is a huge pain? Takes an eternity and a day to spawn a dust cloud in Wellspring Cave, and you can still find Gems and the like instead (I found like three before I found my mole). I must've spent like 20-30 Repel resetting constantly in full. Found a level 11 one (can range from 10-13).

Anyway, once you get Drilbur, it's...kinda bad. The Route 3 mooks can easily KO you (IIRC 3HKO you), even stuff like Woobat...once you get Metal Claw at 15 (alongside the Rock Smash TM) it gets better at least. I would equate both the finding time and the bad initial six to nine levels or so to be roughly equivalent to the Darumaka rut. I trained Drilbur on about 3-4 Audino near Pinwheel (and a Throh) to get it to level 19 for Dig. Once it gets that, it hits pretty darn hard, but the rut shouldn't be discounted. Mooks can still 3HKO you by this point, so you can't really take a hit.

Audino soloed N, but just barely, thanks to Work Up and Doubleslap.

Used an Audino to get both Pignite and Audino to 20. Onto Lenora, with death fodder for Intimidate for all:
Audino: Very good here if you have Secret Power (level 20, so not bad). Outsped Herdier, but not Watchog.
You 3HKO Herdier and Watchog, and have a 30% chance to paralyze since you are in a building. Regenerator also helps, but IIRC I barely noticed it (and you have a free turn to heal for Retaliate fodder).

Drilbur: Not great here even with Dig. Herdier like 2HKOs you IIRC, and while you can 2HKO it (Rock Smash into Dig, especially with Defense drop) Drilbur can never really take on Watchog as the latter outspeeds and 2HKOs with an unboosted Retaliate.

Pignite: Arm Thrust OHKOs Herdier with 3 hits (you outspeed) and while you are slower than Watchog, if you roll 4 Arm Thrusts you OHKO it. So likely a 2HKO. Good here as expected.

I agree with Punchshroom's assesment of Cottonee above. Made a post about it awhile back, but I don't see it rising higher than C. I'm gonna use Cottonee myself, so we'll see.

Speaking of which, Cottonee Level 16, Mild IVS:

I'll take em, but that 19 Special Attack at level 16 is kinda hilarious.
Got through Pinwheel Forest. Initial impressions of non-traded Cottonee:
It's bad. Like, really bad. You literally 4HKO lower leveled Purrloin with Mega Drain off 37 base Special Attack. You 3HKO Panpour with a super-effective move. You can't OHKO Patrat at +3 Special Attack. You never really die because of the healing options and Big Root, but that offensive potential is not good (might be because of my bad Special Attack IV, but remember my nature boosts Special Attack).

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

For the record, Whimsicott being able to solo Clay is honestly to be somewhat expected, since nearly all the other available Grass-types could do it, such as Lilligant, Servine, Simisage, Maractus, and (arguably) Deerling. Only the Grass-types that may struggle 1v1 with Excadrill, such as Leavanny and Foonguss, should be noted critically.

My experiences with Whimsicott are kinda mixed. Like on one hand, it's pretty good at its job of disruption and is neat in the fact that it's able to provide some "burst utility" in nearly any sort of boss matchup. On the other hand, Whimsicott is pretty far off in terms of efficiency, and its utility may end up unneeded/unnoticed on better structured teams.

I feel that a pretty important aspect of using Whimsicott is instead of evolving Cottonee at level 26, you evolve it at level 28, the level it learns Charm. Charm just makes certain matchups a lot smoother or downright unloseable for Whimsicott, letting it keep itself healthy much more effectively against physical threats such as Clay, Drayden, Marshal (can't cripple Throh, though), and even N's Zekrom, significantly improving Whimsicott's late game performance. This does constrict Whimsicott's movepool though, since it doesn't want to drop any of Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Charm, with maybe a case of Light Screen over Stun Spore before fighting the E4, but otherwise this is the most effective in-game set for Whimsicott anyway so it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

That said, I do have issues with Cottonee's early period, particularly the road to reach Charm which will seem like ages away given how slowly Cottonee kills things (thankfully Cottonee levels up rather quickly, but still), which is why I strongly suggest only going for Charm instead of the better Cotton Guard, since trying to train for that gives you a net loss in efficiency already. Even after all is said and done, Whimsi's route clearing potential is only average at best; sure, Giga Drain's sustain definitely works out for it in that regard, but the lackluster Special Attack can be noticeable. Whimsicott I feel is the perfect example of "effective, but not terribly efficient". For an in-game Grass-type, it lacks the 'boost-to-win' capability that Lilligant and Serperior and Acupressure Maractus lol have, and lacks the coverage that Simisage and Sawsbuck have to clear out individual opponents more quickly. To that end, I do consider Cottonee a more effective Grass-type than say, Sewaddle, but I hesitate to rank it outright higher than the other C Ranks.

Tl'dr: I do agree Cottonee deserves a rise for what it can do, but I think it's still only C Tier worthy for that.

Definitely agree with all this. Charm’s also great for enabling other setup sweepers when Whimiscott can’t win the matchup itself, like against Skyla, although that doesn’t really factor into its own ranking or the ranking of the sweeper that needs its support. This really encapsulates the difficulty of ranking Cottonee in a vacuum: even when it loses a matchup, it’s often crippled whatever KO’d it so badly that the next team member in can do basically whatever it likes, which is really powerful in difficult matchups, but quite inefficient.

Also I think Marshal’s Throh is a viable target for Charm, because the trainer AI doesn’t seem to ‘know’ that Storm Throw always crits, so it’ll just use Bulldoze to try and slow you down and treat Stone Edge as its most powerful attack. That’s just my experience though, so I might’ve just been lucky.

On another topic, are we ok with fiddling around with the date to change the season? Winter unlocks access to Substitute, which on its own allows virtually any setup sweeper to crush Ghetsis, since his Cofagrigus seems to spam Toxic as long as it’s above 50% HP and your active Pokémon isn’t poisoned, even when you’re behind a sub.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Definitely agree with all this. Charm’s also great for enabling other setup sweepers when Whimiscott can’t win the matchup itself, like against Skyla, although that doesn’t really factor into its own ranking or the ranking of the sweeper that needs its support. This really encapsulates the difficulty of ranking Cottonee in a vacuum: even when it loses a matchup, it’s often crippled whatever KO’d it so badly that the next team member in can do basically whatever it likes, which is really powerful in difficult matchups, but quite inefficient.

Also I think Marshal’s Throh is a viable target for Charm, because the trainer AI doesn’t seem to ‘know’ that Storm Throw always crits, so it’ll just use Bulldoze to try and slow you down and treat Stone Edge as its most powerful attack. That’s just my experience though, so I might’ve just been lucky.

On another topic, are we ok with fiddling around with the date to change the season? Winter unlocks access to Substitute, which on its own allows virtually any setup sweeper to crush Ghetsis, since his Cofagrigus seems to spam Toxic as long as it’s above 50% HP and your active Pokémon isn’t poisoned, even when you’re behind a sub.

Yes on the season. Done it before and I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed (it makes Cryogonal and Cubchoo slightly more viable too-we could maybe bump the former to D tier because of this).

 

[VagueKatti]

Regarding the comment about Fraxure using Dragon Claw, Drayden's mons only know Dragon Tail as STAB. None of them know Dragon Claw, which is probably what makes Drayden not op. Are you sure you are not confusing it with Dragon Rage or Dragon Tail, for Fraxure specifically?

You’re correct, my mistake; I was confusing Dragon Claw with Dragon Tail.

This, however, makes Beartic’s chances much worse, as it essentially halts Beartic from sweeping, as it takes away a precious turn to switch back in (in which Beartic will absorb damage) and completely nullifies any X-items you may have used.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

You’re correct, my mistake; I was confusing Dragon Claw with Dragon Tail.

This, however, makes Beartic’s chances much worse, as it essentially halts Beartic from sweeping, as it takes away a precious turn to switch back in (in which Beartic will absorb damage) and completely nullifies any X-items you may have used.

This just raises more questions tbh. The implication of your original post was that you’d seen Fraxure use Dragon Claw, bringing Beartic into KO range for Druddigon’s Revenge.

The occasional typo is inevitable, but the difference between Dragon Claw and Dragon Tail is crucial against the Opelucid Gym Leader. Your correction is confusing to me, because if Fraxure goes for Dragon Tail or Dragon Dance, as it usually does Turn 1, Beartic gets the OHKO without taking damage (if Icicle Crash hits), improving the matchup compared to how you originally assessed it, rather than making it worse, as you’re saying now.

EDIT: removed what was likely a rash accusation of theorymonning

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I've seen Beartic sweep the Opelucid gym for what it's worth (25:17-26:04)
Sure, it's from a Let's Play, but the user isn't really overleveled. Note that he shares similar opinions on how disappointing Beartic can be.

 

[VagueKatti]

This just raises more questions tbh. The implication of your original post was that you’d seen Fraxure use Dragon Claw, bringing Beartic into KO range for Druddigon’s Revenge.

The occasional typo is inevitable, but the difference between Dragon Claw and Dragon Tail is crucial against the Opelucid Gym Leader. Your correction is confusing to me, because if Fraxure goes for Dragon Tail or Dragon Dance, as it usually does Turn 1, Beartic gets the OHKO without taking damage (if Icicle Crash hits), improving the matchup compared to how you originally assessed it, rather than making it worse, as you’re saying now.

EDIT: removed what was likely a rash accusation of theorymonning

You’re right, it does raise more questions. I apologize for being misleading in my response about Dragon Claw.

Having had a savestate, I tested the fight again under the same conditions I outlined before, and everything I said originally holds true except about Fraxure, and thus the match-up is directly improved. Again, I apologize for stating incorrect info, especially as this is bound to make my post look far less credible than it did in the past.

However, even with the Drayden match-up improved substantially, I still assert that Beartic does not belong anywhere outside of D. Though the 1 good match-up is a good improvement, it does not a C tier make, and its flaws are still damning.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Yeah honestly it was never a big deal. Sorry if I came across as being super confrontational over something so inconsequential. Beartic’s still Beartic, and a good Drayden matchup isn’t super important when Drayden’s kind of a joke lol

 

[VagueKatti]

Yeah honestly it was never a big deal. Sorry if I came across as being super confrontational over something so inconsequential. Beartic’s still Beartic, and a good Drayden matchup isn’t super important when Drayden’s kind of a joke lol

No don’t worry about it, if I said something blatantly incorrect and contradictory (which I did) then it’s worth calling out so that Pokemon are accurately tiered, no?

Anyway, while we’re on the subject of my last run, I also used Simisage, Liepard, Victini (which I don’t believe is tiered so w/e), and Druddigon. Are any of those on the discussion slate as of now DrumstickGaming?

 

[DrumstickGaming]

No don’t worry about it, if I said something blatantly incorrect and contradictory (which I did) then it’s worth calling out so that Pokemon are accurately tiered, no?

Anyway, while we’re on the subject of my last run, I also used Simisage, Liepard, Victini (which I don’t believe is tiered so w/e), and Druddigon. Are any of those on the discussion slate as of now DrumstickGaming?

Uh....I guess Simisage? Liepard...we know where THAT is going. Druddigon could be useful, feel free to post your opinion! Curious to see if it could make D or even C.

 

[Magnus0]

One other thing I would like to bring up here is the levels at which people are finishing/leveling too while playing the game. A few posts here are claiming reaching "even" levels (or in some cases outright outleveling) with a Gym Leader seem to be a bit... Interesting to me. I have never been at that sort of level outside of XY onwards with the XP share without significant grinding. My "latest" play of White 2 (which has dates going back to 2012 since I finished it a few days ago), ended up at the Elite 4 with Level 45-47 mons and came out with 2 49's. Even IAR in his S Mon run barely cracked 50 with a 4 mon team. A post earlier went against Clay using a level 31 (I am sure I also saw a level 32, but can't find the post now). That's at the same level as his Ace. I understand that having a smaller team means higher levels, but some of the levels described here seem rather... Outlandish. I know this because on my last game I had to Audino grind several times (most significantly getting everyone to 45 before heading into Victory Road). I am going to transfer/wipe my game probably later in the week and play again, because I am honestly unsure how people are ending up so highly leveled. Lucky Egg only gets you so far and people probably shouldn't be abusing Audino that heavily. Being overleveled makes Pokemon look better than they are. Grain of salt and all that.

I played through the game multiple times in the last few weeks and I felt that the level curve was very consistent each time, at least if you defeat all random trainers that you don't really have to go out of your way for that is.

As a rule of thumb, I think your team should be around 10 (+5 levels for every gym you defeated). So if you are at, say, Elesa, your team should be around level 25. 30 for Clay, 35 for Skyla, and so on. There are a couple of exceptions to this rule. It doesn't really work in the early game, where the level curve is slightly higher. The rule also tends to outscales the actual level curve in the late game, where it kinda skips over Drayden, going from Brycen (40) directly to the E4 (45).

Unless you have a full team of six right from the start of the game, it's very reasonable to be on the same level as the gym leaders' aces. And that is without Audino grinding.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I played through the game multiple times in the last few weeks and I felt that the level curve was very consistent each time, at least if you defeat all random trainers that you don't really have to go out of your way for that is.

As a rule of thumb, I think your team should be around 10 (+5 levels for every gym you defeated). So if you are at, say, Elesa, your team should be around level 25. 30 for Clay, 35 for Skyla, and so on. There are a couple of exceptions to this rule. It doesn't really work in the early game, where the level curve is slightly higher. The rule also tends to outscales the actual level curve in the late game, where it kinda skips over Drayden, going from Brycen (40) directly to the E4 (45).

Unless you have a full team of six right from the start of the game, it's very reasonable to be on the same level as the gym leaders' aces. And that is without Audino grinding.

Wanna say I agree with this. Even if you are overleveled midgame the game does catch up lategame, really no matter the team size. I was with 4 and I was around level 50 at the league.

Heck, I wouldn't object for being level 29 at Elesa, because level 29 is when Dwebble and Drilbur get Rock Slide then and Elesa is a hard boss.

__

Wanted to give an update before the desert since the next update will be almost all Archen's mook performance, really.

Burgh: Went in at 23 all around, with Pansage dying like a sad sack for Amulet Coin.

Cottonee: Lol. I mean, you can beat Dwebble, but it's still like a 4HKO. Mostly fires back with Smack Down.
Drilbur: Good. You 2HKO Whirlipede and Dwebble (I think the latter might be a range).
Pignite: Should 2HKO and sweep with Charcoal Flame Charge, assuming you don't get hit by Screech. Speaking of which...
Audino: You'll want a Guard Spec. from Narcrene for this fight. Optimally, Whirlipede will keep using Screech to no effect. After 3 Work Ups you should 2HKO it. After the first hit your Guard Spec. should wear off and Whirlipede should be knocked into Hyper Potion range or 2HKOed. Dwebble is 2HKOed by Grass Knot, though you have to watch out for Sand-Attack. Leavanny is 2HKOed by Secret Power (Razor Leaf no crit is a 4HKO).
You should outspeed Whirlipede and Dwebble. It is possible to do this without healing, but it's a bit too variable. Either way, a Guard Spec. and a Lemonade (1,050 in cash) is not that much to solo a fight. Either way, Audino probably won't need Guard Spec. from here on out. I could've used Attract but chose not to because that is not efficient.

Rivals - Bianca. Amulet Coin Pansage for taking Intimidate:
Cottonee: Not much better. You can beat Herdier and Panpour, but that's about it most likely. Didn't test this much because you are pretty hard walled by Servine anyway.
Drilbur: Think I used Hone Claws for +1 and OHKOed everything with Dig. Servine missed with Leaf Tornado but I'd bet you'd easily live with Eviolite anyway, and the accuracy drop potential is offset by the accuracy buff. IIRC I outsped everything.
Pignite: Easy sweep, you 2HKO pretty much everything with Flame Charge.
Audino: You should OHKO Munna and Panpour with +1 Secret Power, though mine with a little chip OHKOed Herdier. Servine likely lives a hit but it can't do much back, I wouldn't know because I crit it.

Rivals - Cheren:
Cottonee: You can beat Liepard and Dewott, but it's like a 4 or 5HKO. Razor Shell can crit and Defense drop a bunch after a Focus Energy. Still pretty inefficent.
Drilbur: I think at +2 I OHKOed everything.
Pignite: You 2HKO everything with decent Arm Thrust rolls of 3. (not sure if Rock Smash can do it). They don't do much back anyway. Stay away from Dewott obviously.
Audino: This one depends if Pidove decides to Leer you or not. That being said, Audino was INSANELY bulky. It lived a critical Razor Shell at -2 Defense at low HP. And my Defense IVs and nature aren't good for my Defense. You should 2HKO everything at +2, if not OHKO.

Sorry for haziness on some of these, I can retest if needed.

Still though, Audino is pretty darn good. I've swept pretty much everyone with the thing, and even though it's offenses aren't much, Reflect and Light Screen will still give it a valuable niche, and Secret Power can likely 3HKO most mooks if not 2HKO. You could maybe argue for C, if not B from how it's been going. The versatility is unmatched. Want a set-up sweeper? Audino can do that. Wanna 1v1 and switch out? Audino's great with Regenerator. Wanna heal up your mons while Audino takes hits? Audino can do that. I love this thing. I don't think any decently fast tanks match it with both screens and the all-purpose nature (Gothitelle is kinda meh).

Levels, with nicknames:
Porkemon the Pignite - 23
Diggernaut the Drilbur - 23
Cuddles the Cottonee - 24
HelloNurse the Audino - 26

 

[Detective Barricade]

I was complimenting them when I said that. I'm saying it was a good test. I should have used clearer wording.
I was not trying to be a jerk, I promise you. I'm sorry if I offended you VagueKatti, or anyone else for that matter. Seismitoad is in B right now, and it will probably stay there. I will keep my feelings out of future posts.



I don't think I was being any ruder to VagueKatti than I was to MoonlightRose. I was surprised no one called me out there.

If you want to replace me with someone else to run this tier list, let me know. I'm sorry if I'm not doing a good job (not a backhanded compliment). I really don't mean to be a jerk. If anything, I want the best for this tier list - I make long posts with a bunch of research to be informative to others. I check on this thread a ton every day, and do my best to respond to users. I am not perfect, far from it. This is not to be bitter, but to say I love working on this tier list. If I'm not the best fit, then I will leave. It would not be out of spite, but to make this tier list prosper.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


So should Darumaka drop to S then?
So far, DHR, Yoshi, and Its_A_Random have said drop it.
Dargad, Ryota Mitara and Texas have said leave it.
I'm on the fence for obvious reasons, though I could say A. I will drop it for now.
Drilbur only like two people have commented on, so it's staying (and I will be testing it soon). Want more opinions before I drop.
Sawk could rise to S, but I want to see some detailed arguments on it after those two playthroughs are over first.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have been incredibly busy the past while, and unable to pick up and continue my play through, but I can say that Darumaka is definitely not out of place in A. Darmanitan is a MONSTER, but the Darumaka period is a definite headache, especially when you're still dealing with the already hampered accuracy of Fire Fang.

At least so far this is my opinion. I can't give a more complete opinion on it and the other Pokemon I'm using until I finish the main story.

 

[Magnus0]

So I finally found some time to give an update of my run.

Clay
- Pignite is eh. It got outsped and swaggered by Krokorok. If Pignite hits itself, it's dead, if it doesn't, Krokorok is dead. 50/50. It can beat Excadrill if it uses hone claws instead of bulldoze. flame charge 2HKO's and allows Pignite to outspeed. It does have grass knot, but this doesn't OHKO Palpitoad while Palpitoad does OHKO with muddy water, so it's not very viable. Overall, Pignite can beat either Krokorok or Excadrill, but not both as that is way too incosistent with confusion hax. Plus, just one bulldoze from anything is enough to ruin your day. Mediocre to bad matchup.
- Watchog was decent. It can 2-HKO both Krokorok and Palpitoad with with return or grass knot. You can use dig for Excadrill, but it's hard to find a moveslot for it. Confuse ray can seriously mess Excadrill up if it tries to boost up with hone claws, so that's cool. Overall, pretty good matchup.
- Lilligant sweeps without setup. Just spam giga drain easy peasy
- Trubbish can't get anything done here. It doesn't deal any damage, takes lots of damage from bulldoze and toxic spikes is pretty much useless since Excadrill is part steel. Actual trash

Skyla
- I first tested with Pignite, which didn't go well. It fails to 2HKO Swoobat of all things with flame charge. I tried charcoal which did actually turn flame charge into a 2-HKO, but without eviolite, Pignite just dies to acrobatics straight up. I then tried again with Emboar, which went better. Flame charge got Swoobat into low yellow. Acrobatics didn't OHKO anymore so Swoobat used amnesia. I killed with rollout, which 2HKO'd Unfezant and OHKO'd Swanna. I tested a couple of times, and Swoobat didn't use amnesia every time so while Emboar can sweep, it's not consistent.
- Watchog actually straight up solo'd this without setup. Crunch OHKO'd Swoobat, and return 2HKO'd Unfezant and Swanna, which used razor wind and aqua ring respectively. So good matchup I guess.
- Lilligant gets memed on by Unaware Swoobat. It can set up on Unfezant and sweep from there. Overall, it's a decent-ish but tricky matchup.
- I tested Trubbish first, but it got overwhelmed by Swoobat because of unaware countering stockpile. I then tested Garbodor. Garbodor can muscle its way through the fight with black sludge and its good bulk. With stockpile, it can totally wall unfezant and Swanna. Good matchup, but not very effecient. You might need some healing items too, escpecially if you don't have black slludge.
- Joltik was actually kinda iffy-ish. You can set up with charge beam on Swoobat, but that damn unaware cancels it out. Joltik takes quite some damage from acrobatics too. Once you muscle through swoobat, it can OHKO both Unfezant and Swanna, but that's easier said than done. I needed a couple of healing items to get trough Swoobat. I should mention that Joltik evolves at level 36, which is not completely implausible to reach even when it comes right before the gym with little time to train. Galvantula should have less trouble with Swoobat, which makes the matchup better obviously. Overall, I wouldn't call this a clean sweep, but Joltik is far from bad here either.

Brycen
- Emboar solo'd this easily. Everything dies in one hit. Finally a solid matchup again.
- Watchog still holds up, as it solo'd this without setup. Return 2HKO's Vanillish, who only got one mirror shot off. I used confuse ray on Beartic and the polar bear hit itself in confusion. I followed up with return, and Beartic hit itself again. A final return finished it. Watchog had enough HP left to take an icicle crash, so it beats Beartic even if it doesn't hit itself in confusion twice. Cryogonal died in one hit from a return. Good matchup, but you need a bit of luck against Beartic.
- Lilligant can set up on Vanillish, which tries to set up alongside you with acid armor. After a couple of quiver dances, Lilligant OHKO's everything with giga drain. Easy solo again.
- Garbodor can muscle through given some time. Even with frost breat, Brycen can't really break through Garbodor with some stockpiles up. You can use toxic/toxic spikes to speed up the fight a bit. Overall, it's not a bad matchup bit again, it's not very effecient. You might need some healing too.
- Galvantula can set up charge beam on Vanilllish and finish Beartic with thunder. Cryogonal survived a hit, but it used reflect so it didn't matter. My entire team could solo Brycen, including Watchog. That's how shit he is as a gym leader.

Iris
- Emboar was... average. Probably the best thing you can do is spam Hammer arm until you get phased out or killed by chip away or slash. If Iris fucks up her dragon tail timing, you can beat a pokemon of choice. It was a neutral matchup really.
- Wathog beat Fraxure with return totally unscathed becasue Fraxure just used dragon dance twice. I used confuse ray on Druddigon, but then got phased out. It fails a 2HKO on both Druddigon and Haxorus, but confuse ray can often turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO. Especially Haxorus can get in big trouble if it hits itself in confusion when it set up some dragon dances. Overall it's a pretty decent matchup.
- Lilligant can sweep if you deposit the rest of your team. Otherwise it gets phased out. So I guess it's a good matchup.
- Same for Garbodor. Toxic/toxic spikes + stockpile can do some work, but it's far from effecient. If you don't deposit the rest of your team, Garbodor is setup bait. Also, if Iris crits through stockpile, you're screwed. I wouldn't call this a good matchup
- Galvantula is also neutral here. It can 2HKO Fraxure with signal beam, but it struggles killing Iris' other pokemon. It can't really set up with charge beam either because of dragon tail. Overall, the matchup is not really good or bad.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Brief update:

Had a Hasty Archen, but accidentally reset without saving. Next reset I got a Lonely one with the folllowing IVs:

Got Cottonee to level 28 so gonna evolve it. As a Cottonee, it has been awful. You like 4HKO or 5HKO pretty much everything with Mega Drain. Even when hitting super-effectively, you'll probably 3HKO. Even with Giga Drain you 2HKO super-effectively. I don't quite see how this is a better Grass type than Sewaddle, though I am not insulting Punchshroom's opinion when I say this, in fact I respect and agree with it, and think Cottonee does bring some unique advantages. Sewaddle has a pretty bad type, but unlike pretty much any other Grass at the time other than maybe Simisage it has offensive variety (you'd be surprised how much a second STAB helps). Bug Bite, Razor Leaf, and Return aren't really resisted by anything at this point in the game. Whimsicott might have the edge in bosses but its movepool is useless on mooks. In contrast, Leavanny has great mooks but iffy bosses because Rock coverage and other weaknesses are everywhere.

Sure, Whimsicott can maybe solo Elesa and definitely Clay, but I don't really see it doing much else besides "burst utility" as Punchshroom said. If it weren't for decent Marshall, Ghetsis and Clay matchups I could honestly see it staying D. Pretty much anything else has better offensive stats than Cottonee, and Whimicott's 77 Special Attack isn't great when it will typically stop running Growth as a Whimsicott, meaning than unlike its similar feather-hitting contemporaries (Swoobat, Serperior) it has no way to get around mediocre offenses, though Shadow Ball and Tailwind (28 as Whimsicott, which I'll likely replace over Stun Spore) can be helpful.

I think with proper use of screens (and X Speed for Caitlin and Ghetsis) Leavanny can live up to its endgame potential. 2 slots for STABs, oneor Swords Dance, and the other slot can be filled with Reflect, Light Screen or Shadow Claw depending on the battle.

___

Drilbur has been good on mooks recently thanks to Sand Force in the desert. It's pretty good once it gets Dig and is nowhere near deadweight. Gonna wait to 33 before evolving for early EQ most likely.

Archen can solo N with Eviolite (mine was 26) if you Agility on Sigilyph. You OHKO everything else with Pluck and 2HKO Sigilyph.

Gonna assume Archen's mook performance is great so far (it swept many things on Route 16 albeit super effectively, my other members needed exp to have well-rounded levels).

I took out all the surrounding trainers before attempting Elesa, which I think is reasonable.

Elesa. Drilbur was level 29 (not hard, you gain two levels in the gym easily, I came in at lvl 26, then grinded a little). Others are level 28.
Drilbur: You 2HKO with Rock Tomb, but given 80 accuracy its nice to have both it and Slide. Slide knocks Emolga down to low yellow/red, so Rock Tomb to outspeed + Slide for slightly easier kill is nice. You can also Hone Claws to OHKO. IIRC Zebra is OHKOed by an unboosted Dig.
Whimsicott: You CAN solo here but it's inefficent (I did solo her, this is not theorymon). Charm, Leech Seed + Giga Drain, they can't do much back.
Archen: Not horrible with Eviolite. You live a Volt Switch, but even in Defeatist you still 2HKO with Rock Tomb. So you beat one Emolga.
Pignite: 2HKO with Rock Tomb, you beat one Emolga. Dunno how Zebstrika matchup is (probably average considering Spark's 30% paralysis).
Audino: Sweeps again. You'll wanna use Echoed Voice here to avoid Static. At 200 BP you knock Zebstrika into low yellow, or you can maybe OHKO it with a range. Volt Switch, even without Light Screen, is hilarious, it usually does less than 20 damage from the Emolga. With Light Screen, it's a spring breeze. On the second Echoed Voice, you knock Emolga to half health from full. Audino ended up with 41 HP before growing to level 30. Might need 1 healing item assuming bad luck, but I didn't in my final attempt.

Cheren:
Drilbur: Sweeps after two Hone Claws, though you will get low on HP.
Whimsicott: You sweep but you use pretty much all of your Giga Drain PP, and stuff like Pansear's Yawn and Tranquill's Roost can slow you down (not kill you though)
Archen: OHKOs everything with Acrobatics, though Liepard's faster Pursuit and Tranquill's Quick Attack can put you really close to Defeatist.
Pignite: If you have Eviolite, you can take on Dewott, Flame Charge into Rollout on Liepard can sweep, though you will get low on HP (I didn't need to heal though. Rollout stops by the time Pansear comes out last.
Audino: You 2HKO after a Work Up with Secret Power, though you can use Return here too.

Gonna give Audino a break from the next mooks now that it is level 32 lol

 

[Magnus0]

The final update for my run with Tepig, Patrat (unironically, I feel like I should mention this), Petillil, Trubbish and Joltik. Here's the E4 matchups in the order I fought the E4 trainers.

Caitlin
- Emboar can get one flamethrower off on either Reuniclus or Musharna, but that's really it. It can't take even a single psychic from anything on Caitlins team. Horrible matchup.
- Watchog is really not strong enough here. Its crunch can 2HKO Sigilyph, but Sigilyph outspeeds so that doesn't really work out. You can set up one or two work ups on Musharna, depending on if it uses reflect or not, and pass these boosts away to a pokemon that can make better use out of them with baton pass. Not a great matchup.
- Lilligant sweeps as usual. I got petal dance during the fight, which is obscenely powerful after a couple of boosts. It OHKO'd all of Caitlins pokemon after like three boosts, including Sigilyph which resists grass. Great matchup
- Galvantula doesn't even come close to 2HKO'ing anything with signle beam. You can thunder Sigilyph but that's it. My Galvantula even straight up died to a psychic from Reuiniclus. Honestly, poor matchup.
- Garbodor: lol

Marshal
- Emboar is quite average again. It can put some damage on Conkeldurr because it outspeeds I guess, and you can hammer arm Mienshao for some good damage. Throh beats it with bulldoze and Sawk outspeeds and is bulky. Pretty mediocre matchup
- Watchog can actually survive an attack from Throh. Troh always seems to use bulldoze, and Watchog outspeeds even after the speed drop. This means that you can consistently pass a work up to an ally, which can be valuable. Other than that it is absolutely useless.
- The only thing that is kinda annoying here is sturdy on Sawk. It's not really a problem though because Lilligant can survive anything Sawk can throw at her. Other than that minor inconvenience, this is another easy sweep for Lilligant.
- Garbodor can pull off a sweep here, but it is quite risky because Marshall has many high crit rate moves to cut through stockpile. This is the first battle where toxic spikes is actually quite useful. There's not really much else to say about this matchup. Garbodor works, but it doesn't do its job very quickly.
- Galvantula is too weak to do anything. Thunder is too weak to get even a 2HKO on anything but Mienshao, but Mienshao outspeeds. Everything carries a rock move, so you can never get more than one move in. Bad matchup.

Grimsley
- Emboar has the potential to OHKO everything on Grimsleys team with hamer arm. The problem is that Emboar doesn't actually outspeed anything but Scafty, which means that it has to take aerial aces and earthquakes it really can't take at all. Krook is especially troublesome because it outspeeds and OHKO's with earthquake. Liepard is actually quite threatning with aerial ace, which 2HKO's. Bisharp also has aerial ace. It's overall a really tricky matchup, I couldn't really call it good tbh, despite the fact that Emboar technically has the power to OHKO Grimsleys entire team.
- Watchog can troll Scafty with dig, which makes Scrafty wiff its high jump kick. It's pretty bad against everything else though. The only pokemon that Watchog has a chance of winning against is Liepard, but that's not exactly an accomplishment. Poor matchup.
- Surprise, Lilligant sweeps it again. Be sure to be at moderately high health so you can survive an x-scissor from Bisharp if petal dance fails to OHKO (it only does if you don't have that many boosts). Another sweep.
- Garbodor beats scrafty and can set up toxic spikes on it, which might help against Krook. Garbodor also beats Liepard, but Krook overwhelmes it with earthquake and Bisharp resists everything Garbodor can throw at it. Average matchup.
- Galvantula sucks. It doesn't even OHKO Liepard with Signle beam. It is OHKO'd by Krook. Scrafty takes two thunders with ease. The best thing you can do here is outspeeding and barely 2HKO'ing Bisharp with thunder. Poor matchup really

Shauntal
- Emboar loses hard to Golurk and Jellicent, and Cofagrigus and Chandelure both have psychic. Really shitty matchup
- Watchog can set up multiple work ups on Cofagrigus and pass them to a teammate. So that's pretty cool, but other than that, it's too weak to do anything even with crunch. Sooo, bad-ish matchup, but far from useless as passing about three work ups can allow a teammate to sweep.
- Lilligant sweeps it again. You need to boost up all the way to +5 or +6 to OHKO Chandelure with petal dance, but that's not really a problem because sleep powder makes it so easy to set up anyway. Golurk and Jellicent are absolutely DESTROYED by a boosted petal dance.
- Garbodor can set up toxic spikes, but that's it. Everything resists its moves. Poor matchup
- Galvantula can thunder Jellicent, but it won't OHKO. I tried sweeping with the help of work up passing, but even after THREE work ups, Galvantula failed to OHKO Cofagrigus. Not that this mattered, because Golurk would have stopped the sweep anyway. Bad matchup again.


And now, to my final verdict:

Tepig -> B tier
Pros: perfect availability, good offensive stats and typing
Cons: both speed and bulk issues (never a good combination), Has to use arm thrust or rock smash until level 36 and it doesn't get a half decent fire stab until level 43, shit mid-game due to aformentioned speed and bulk issues and weak powered moves, really mediocre matchup spread, with Brycen being its only good matchup after Burgh. It's matchup spread just fall apart more at the E4.

Patrat -> D tier, makes a case for C even
Pros: perfect availability, early evolution, good movepool, good midgame, especially against the gyms, good status spreader, late game niche in baton pass
Cons: it's ugly as shit, its stats are shit and don't hold up anymore at around the E4, which is really its only actual problem, 4-slot-move-syndrome

Petillil -> A tier, makes a case for S
Pros: best sleeper in the game, best setup sweeper in the game, amazing utility, healing and sustain moves making it hard to kill and ideal for route clearing, quite early evolution, sweeps all of the important fights except Burgh and Skyla, boosted petal dance is a ridiculously strong late game option, tearing through the E4.
Cons: literally no coverage at all

Trubbish -> D tier, barely
Pros: interesting but gimmicky movepool combinations like acid spray + sludge bomb (pretty strong) and stockpile + toxic/toxic spikes, decent-ish stats, can technically solo quite some fights but this takes long
Cons: lackluster typing, bad coverage, doesn't get a physical STAB to work with (why doesn't it get poison jab?), its main niche in toxic spikes is only useful in like three fights, very ineffecient

Joltik -> B tier, makes a case for C (how was this ever in A to begin with)
Pros: compoundeyes thunder, good speed, interesting typing
Cons: zero good matchups after Skyla, power issues, no coverage outside of STAB, shit bulk, it's like a slightly better Zebstrika but without the amazing mid-game. I can see Joltik and Blitzle in the same tier tbh.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

The final update for my run with Tepig, Patrat (unironically, I feel like I should mention this), Petillil, Trubbish and Joltik. Here's the E4 matchups in the order I fought the E4 trainers.

Caitlin
- Emboar can get one flamethrower off on either Reuniclus or Musharna, but that's really it. It can't take even a single psychic from anything on Caitlins team. Horrible matchup.
- Watchog is really not strong enough here. Its crunch can 2HKO Sigilyph, but Sigilyph outspeeds so that doesn't really work out. You can set up one or two work ups on Musharna, depending on if it uses reflect or not, and pass these boosts away to a pokemon that can make better use out of them with baton pass. Not a great matchup.
- Lilligant sweeps as usual. I got petal dance during the fight, which is obscenely powerful after a couple of boosts. It OHKO'd all of Caitlins pokemon after like three boosts, including Sigilyph which resists grass. Great matchup
- Galvantula doesn't even come close to 2HKO'ing anything with signle beam. You can thunder Sigilyph but that's it. My Galvantula even straight up died to a psychic from Reuiniclus. Honestly, poor matchup.
- Garbodor: lol

Marshal
- Emboar is quite average again. It can put some damage on Conkeldurr because it outspeeds I guess, and you can hammer arm Mienshao for some good damage. Throh beats it with bulldoze and Sawk outspeeds and is bulky. Pretty mediocre matchup
- Watchog can actually survive an attack from Throh. Troh always seems to use bulldoze, and Watchog outspeeds even after the speed drop. This means that you can consistently pass a work up to an ally, which can be valuable. Other than that it is absolutely useless.
- The only thing that is kinda annoying here is sturdy on Sawk. It's not really a problem though because Lilligant can survive anything Sawk can throw at her. Other than that minor inconvenience, this is another easy sweep for Lilligant.
- Garbodor can pull off a sweep here, but it is quite risky because Marshall has many high crit rate moves to cut through stockpile. This is the first battle where toxic spikes is actually quite useful. There's not really much else to say about this matchup. Garbodor works, but it doesn't do its job very quickly.
- Galvantula is too weak to do anything. Thunder is too weak to get even a 2HKO on anything but Mienshao, but Mienshao outspeeds. Everything carries a rock move, so you can never get more than one move in. Bad matchup.

Grimsley
- Emboar has the potential to OHKO everything on Grimsleys team with hamer arm. The problem is that Emboar doesn't actually outspeed anything but Scafty, which means that it has to take aerial aces and earthquakes it really can't take at all. Krook is especially troublesome because it outspeeds and OHKO's with earthquake. Liepard is actually quite threatning with aerial ace, which 2HKO's. Bisharp also has aerial ace. It's overall a really tricky matchup, I couldn't really call it good tbh, despite the fact that Emboar technically has the power to OHKO Grimsleys entire team.
- Watchog can troll Scafty with dig, which makes Scrafty wiff its high jump kick. It's pretty bad against everything else though. The only pokemon that Watchog has a chance of winning against is Liepard, but that's not exactly an accomplishment. Poor matchup.
- Surprise, Lilligant sweeps it again. Be sure to be at moderately high health so you can survive an x-scissor from Bisharp if petal dance fails to OHKO (it only does if you don't have that many boosts). Another sweep.
- Garbodor beats scrafty and can set up toxic spikes on it, which might help against Krook. Garbodor also beats Liepard, but Krook overwhelmes it with earthquake and Bisharp resists everything Garbodor can throw at it. Average matchup.
- Galvantula sucks. It doesn't even OHKO Liepard with Signle beam. It is OHKO'd by Krook. Scrafty takes two thunders with ease. The best thing you can do here is outspeeding and barely 2HKO'ing Bisharp with thunder. Poor matchup really

Shauntal
- Emboar loses hard to Golurk and Jellicent, and Cofagrigus and Chandelure both have psychic. Really shitty matchup
- Watchog can set up multiple work ups on Cofagrigus and pass them to a teammate. So that's pretty cool, but other than that, it's too weak to do anything even with crunch. Sooo, bad-ish matchup, but far from useless as passing about three work ups can allow a teammate to sweep.
- Lilligant sweeps it again. You need to boost up all the way to +5 or +6 to OHKO Chandelure with petal dance, but that's not really a problem because sleep powder makes it so easy to set up anyway. Golurk and Jellicent are absolutely DESTROYED by a boosted petal dance.
- Garbodor can set up toxic spikes, but that's it. Everything resists its moves. Poor matchup
- Galvantula can thunder Jellicent, but it won't OHKO. I tried sweeping with the help of work up passing, but even after THREE work ups, Galvantula failed to OHKO Cofagrigus. Not that this mattered, because Golurk would have stopped the sweep anyway. Bad matchup again.


And now, to my final verdict:

Tepig -> B tier
Pros: perfect availability, good offensive stats and typing
Cons: both speed and bulk issues (never a good combination), Has to use arm thrust or rock smash until level 36 and it doesn't get a half decent fire stab until level 43, shit mid-game due to aformentioned speed and bulk issues and weak powered moves, really mediocre matchup spread, with Brycen being its only good matchup after Burgh. It's matchup spread just fall apart more at the E4.

Patrat -> D tier, makes a case for C even
Pros: perfect availability, early evolution, good movepool, good midgame, especially against the gyms, good status spreader, late game niche in baton pass
Cons: it's ugly as shit, its stats are shit and don't hold up anymore at around the E4, which is really its only actual problem, 4-slot-move-syndrome

Petillil -> A tier, makes a case for S
Pros: best sleeper in the game, best setup sweeper in the game, amazing utility, healing and sustain moves making it hard to kill and ideal for route clearing, quite early evolution, sweeps all of the important fights except Burgh and Skyla, boosted petal dance is a ridiculously strong late game option, tearing through the E4.
Cons: literally no coverage at all

Trubbish -> D tier, barely
Pros: interesting but gimmicky movepool combinations like acid spray + sludge bomb (pretty strong) and stockpile + toxic/toxic spikes, decent-ish stats, can technically solo quite some fights but this takes long
Cons: lackluster typing, bad coverage, doesn't get a physical STAB to work with (why doesn't it get poison jab?), its main niche in toxic spikes is only useful in like three fights, very ineffecient

Joltik -> B tier, makes a case for C (how was this ever in A to begin with)
Pros: compoundeyes thunder, good speed, interesting typing
Cons: zero good matchups after Skyla, power issues, no coverage outside of STAB, shit bulk, it's like a slightly better Zebstrika but without the amazing mid-game. I can see Joltik and Blitzle in the same tier tbh.

Agree with all of these, though I can't quite see Watchog in C.
Joltik could indeed go to C, though I think some object to it. Your E4 matchups went as I expected them to for Galvantula, and it doesn't actually beat anything. I'll drop it to B now, but C is not out of the question given late arrival.
Tepig could maybe drop to B, but not sure. Midgame does suck, but I've never found it completely deadweight, and beating Lenora and Burgh quickly is huge points for it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Joltik should not go to C and to suggest it could fall from A to C immediately without any other input smells poorly of personal bias.

I support Tepig to B, I was underwhelmed when I used it back in the day, for many of the same reasons as Magnus, it's move pool is overstated because of the low base power of so many of it's moves (e.g. scald) and the slower speed is more relevant than it is for many mons because of the frequency of it's weaknesses appearing and comparative irrelevance of the resistances afforded by it's typing.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Joltik should not go to C and to suggest it could fall from A to C immediately without any other input smells poorly of personal bias.

I support Tepig to B, I was underwhelmed when I used it back in the day, for many of the same reasons as Magnus, it's move pool is overstated because of the low base power of so many of it's moves (e.g. scald) and the slower speed is more relevant than it is for many mons because of the frequency of it's weaknesses appearing and comparative irrelevance of the resistances afforded by it's typing.

Joltik is not going to C. I moved it to B.

(C was kind of a knee-jerk reaction tbh)

 

[Magnus0]

Why can´t Watchog be in C? I know it has a bad reputation, but it really isn't that bad, quite good even.

I think it is similar to the Pidove line, because both are mostly return beat sticks. However, Watchog actually has a complete movepool other than return to work with. It has coverage in crunch, dig, grass knot and even thunderbolt. It has many support and disruptive moves like hypnosis, confuse ray, super fang and thunder wave. It also has a boosting move in work up and a good niche in passing work up to a teammate with baton pass. With all these options, it is unlikely that Wathog will ever be completely useless in important fights. I think it's fair to put Patrat one tier above Pidove for having so many more options to use. C is still two entire tiers away from Lillipup, who is in A.

The only problem Watchog really has is that its stats are just bad. They hold up well enough through the mid-late game, but they fall completely flat against the E4. Even still, while Watchog itself can't do anything to the E4 members, it can always pass work ups to a teammate, which is very valuable. That's more than I can say about Emboar and Galvantula, who also fell flat against the E4 with nothing to really compensate here. The Patrat stage is also quite bad, but that is mostly counteracted by early availability and early evolution.


I did propose Joltik to go to B, not C. The 'makes a case for C' part was to idicate that I wouldn't be opposed to dropping it further if someone else uses it and finds it as dissapointing as I did. If you want to use an electric type, you might as well use Blitzle. Zebstrika falls off after Brycen, but it is very good before that. Meanwhile, Joltik never really catches on and still falls off at the E4.


Would anyone be opposed to Petellil in S? I found it to be one of the best pokemon in the entire game, sweeping through the E4 singlehandedly without items. It might require setup for important fights, but I think that's hardly a problem if that setup allows Lilligant to OHKO EVERYTHING. Unlike Serperior, it doesn't need setup for random trainers. It also rarely needs items because big root giga drain heals back a ton of HP.

The only problem Lilligant has is that it has no coverage whatsoever. Your movepool will be sleep powder, quiver dance, giga drain and magical leaf/petal dance (end game), for the entire game. This means that a couple of pokemon lines will force it out. These are the Sewaddle, Venipede, Ferroseed and sap sipper Deerling lines. However, Burgh is the only important matchup with these lines, so it's not that big of a problem imo. Other than Burgh, and possibly N in white, its matchups are pretty much unrivaled. Its E4 performance is even better than Scrafty's.

Now that I have used most of the grass types in the game, I think the grass hierarchy goes like this:

Petillil >>>>> Snivy > Deerling = Pansage > Ferroseed > Sewaddle > Cottonee > Maractus > Foongus

The only thing I'm not really sure about is Ferroseed.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Why can´t Watchog be in C? I know it has a bad reputation, but it really isn't that bad, quite good even.

I think it is similar to the Pidove line, because both are mostly return beat sticks. However, Watchog actually has a complete movepool other than return to work with. It has coverage in crunch, dig, grass knot and even thunderbolt. It has many support and disruptive moves like hypnosis, confuse ray, super fang and thunder wave. It also has a boosting move in work up and a good niche in passing work up to a teammate with baton pass. With all these options, it is unlikely that Wathog will ever be completely useless in important fights. I think it's fair to put Patrat one tier above Pidove for having so many more options to use. C is still two entire tiers away from Lillipup, who is in A.

The only problem Watchog really has is that its stats are just bad. They hold up well enough through the mid-late game, but they fall completely flat against the E4. Even still, while Watchog itself can't do anything to the E4 members, it can always pass work ups to a teammate, which is very valuable. That's more than I can say about Emboar and Galvantula, who also fell flat against the E4 with nothing to really compensate here. The Patrat stage is also quite bad, but that is mostly counteracted by early availability and early evolution.


I did propose Joltik to go to B, not C. The 'makes a case for C' part was to idicate that I wouldn't be opposed to dropping it further if someone else uses it and finds it as dissapointing as I did. If you want to use an electric type, you might as well use Blitzle. Zebstrika falls off after Brycen, but it is very good before that. Meanwhile, Joltik never really catches on and still falls off at the E4.


Would anyone be opposed to Petellil in S? I found it to be one of the best pokemon in the entire game, sweeping through the E4 singlehandedly without items. It might require setup for important fights, but I think that's hardly a problem if that setup allows Lilligant to OHKO EVERYTHING. Unlike Serperior, it doesn't need setup for random trainers. It also rarely needs items because big root giga drain heals back a ton of HP.

The only problem Lilligant has is that it has no coverage whatsoever. Your movepool will be sleep powder, quiver dance, giga drain and magical leaf/petal dance (end game), for the entire game. This means that a couple of pokemon lines will force it out. These are the Sewaddle, Venipede, Ferroseed and sap sipper Deerling lines. However, Burgh is the only important matchup with these lines, so it's not that big of a problem imo. Other than Burgh, and possibly N in white, its matchups are pretty much unrivaled. Its E4 performance is even better than Scrafty's.

Now that I have used most of the grass types in the game, I think the grass hierarchy goes like this:

Petillil >>>>> Snivy > Deerling = Pansage > Ferroseed > Sewaddle > Cottonee > Maractus > Foongus

The only thing I'm not really sure about is Ferroseed.

I agree.

I can live with Watchog in C. You make good arguments about how it can be useful. But no higher, as it is still Watchog.

Fine on Joltik, but I doubt it'll actually drop to C (forgive my quick reaction) and instead stay in B.

Petilil could see S. But personally, I think we should slow down a bit on nomming things to S (Sawk and Joltik got nommed there and almost no follow-up arguments have been made for them since). In addition, we are already evaluating the current S ranks as is.

I don't wanna say Sewaddle is worse than Pansage though. I find it disheartening that people seem to be looking solely at Sewaddle's weaknesses and underselling it. Major battles kinda suck, but that's the case for almost any Grass type. Plus, in the other 60% of the game in-between gyms, it has plenty of time to shine - I'd find it comparable to Deerling, which also has many weaknesses. Let's not forget Sewaddle is great out of the box unlike everything save Petilil and maybe Ferroseed, and a second STAB in Bug is nice.

We will need to test Ferroseed in the future. I may go Sewaddle next run.

Is everyone else fine with Watchog in C and Joltik in B? Want to know before I raise the former (latter is already in B).

...Have I mentioned Watchog's Global Link artwork is creepy?

HE STARES INTO YOUR SOUL.

Back to the run. Challenged Clay with Archen level 31, Excadrill level 31, Whimsicott level 30, Pignite level 30, and Audino level 32.
Archen: OHKOs both Krokorok and Palpitoad with Acrobatics, though is outsped and OHKOed by Rock Slide from Excadrill.
Excadrill: Dig is a range on Krokorok without Soft Sand. But you outspeed and OHKO his Excadrill without Soft Sand.
Basically, you outspeed and OHKO everything with Soft Sand without having to set up. Easy sweep.
Whimiscott: Used Miracle Seed. OHKO on Krokorok. Excadrill has issues though. You 3HKO with Giga Drain. Once you debuff with Charm BAM SLASH CRIT. You can also be flinched by Rock Slide, though you can solve this with Stun Spore or Tailwind. I would say Whimsicott isn't 100% reliable here, but it can at least debuff Excadrill for another party member to handle. You will likely need Miracle Seed to ensure the 3HKO. Obviously you beat Palpitoad.
Pignite: Pretty bad here. Best scenario is if Krok uses Torment; then you can 2HKO with Flame Charge/Arm Thrust. You can take a Bulldoze from Palpitoad and likely Grass Knot it. Excadrill likely beats you though.
Audino (spent a lot of time testing this): The first iffy matchup. Krokorok can screw you up in all kinds of ways, be it Torment, Bulldoze, or Swagger.
If he does Swagger you, you OHKO Krokorok and Palpitoad with Return. You will likely need to be at +4 to OHKO Excadrill with Dig. You should 2HKO Palpitoad with Grass Knot (the HP of Aqua Ring makes it close but doable; Miracle Seed would close the gap at lower levels). You can solo, but it's not nearly as easy this time due to Krokorok. You can setup on Paliptoad but it's hard to bait out. Excadrill tends to Hone Claws on Audino from my experience. You could probably at least get off a Reflect for your other members. Safeguard is $30,000 for this one fight and is thus impractical (and Krok is faster so it can Swagger you, and if you get hit by Swagger and Full Heal it off BAM Swagger again).
TLDR: Iffy but Audino can do things; likely beat Krokorok and Palpitoad with a little luck.

Bianca, with decoy Ducklett for Intimidate:
Archen: Kinda close. You OHKO Herdier and Panpour with Acrobatics. Musharna lives, but Psybeam doesn't quite knock you into Defeatist barring a good roll, and you OHKO Servine (who outspeeds you) with Acrobatics in Defeatist anyway.
Excadrill: 2 Hone Claws and GG.
Whimsicott: 2HKO Herdier, OHKO Panpour, avoid Servine though possible, Musharna is a 3HKO and is annoying with Hypnosis and 2 uses of Hyper Potion from Bianca though doable.
Pignite: Beat Herdier, lose to lol Panpour because Arm Thrust, lose to Musharna, OHKO Servine.
Audino: Herdier's Take Down does nothing to you. 2 Work Ups OHKO everything save Musharna (which 3 Work Ups will OHKO) and this is super easy to setup with Reflect (Herdier does like no damage with Take Down even without Reflect anyway).

For those saying use Rock Smash over Arm Thrust...well, I like chancing my luck, and the Defense drop, while 50% doesn't always happen.
Honestly, with the way it's been going Pignite is probably B tier. I haven't used Eviolite on it much in favor of Charcoal. The lack of high powered moves really shows around Nimbassa, and it often relies on super-effective hits to cleanly beat things. Sure, it gets a lot of coverage, but said coverage is pretty situational as it is right now. The main problem is that it is only okay as both a Fire type and a Fighting type. Fire types outclass it in Speed and higher BP moves, and Fighting types outclass it with generally stronger attacks for a long time as well as better tanking potential.

Proposed changes: Watchy Watchog to C, Joltik to B
Discussion slate: Sewaddle, Tirtouga, Klink

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Results from Drayden:
All mons bar Sawk were level 43, Sawk was 44.
Chandelure and Goth evolved

Cinccino: Cinccino beats both Fraxure and Haxorus. If they Dragon Dance, they will likely go for Dragon Tail, which is when you can Encore them and make them deadweight. Also, my Cinccino outspeeds +1 Fraxure anyways so. Druddigon is a pretty bad matchup, because of Rough Skin and Revenge. At least Iris doesn't have Rough Skin, but it still has Revenge. In case anyone cares, Haxorus needs in total 5 hits to faint. Fraxure, I think, 4.

matchup: solid, but not completely positive.


Gothitelle: Gothitelle 2HKOes Fraxure with Psychic. Fraxure goes with Assurance after DDing, which is a 2HKO after that. Since it is too weakened, Goth can't fight Druddigon. Even then, Psychic is only a 3HKO and it has Night Slash. Haxorus is also 3HKOed and cannot beat it.

matchup: meh, at least not complete deadweight.

Gigalith: Rock Slide 2HKOes Fraxure, which goes for Assurance after DD, although it doesn't deal much. Vs Druddigon, I set up Iron Defense so Night Slash and Revenge don't deal much. Rock Slide is a 3HKO, though I got DTailed before I could finish it off, no doubt it'd have won this if I ran Gigalith only though. Vs Haxorus, I set up another Iron Defense and its Assurance barely did any damage even after boosting twice. Rock Slide almost 2HKOes it, sadly. 6 hits of Rock Blasts are enough to KO it however. If the only member on the team, I'm sure Gigalith wins this easily.

matchup: positive.

Chandelure: Burns Fraxure with Will-o-Wisp to make Assurance only a 3HKO, then 2HKOs with Shadow Ball. Same with Druddigon, just be careful with Night Slash. Haxorus' Assurance is also a 3HKO if burned and is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. I needed some item support to keep it healthy, but if alone, I think this is a good matchup

matchup: between solid and positive (since relying on WoW to not miss on all 3).

Sawk: This one's got a positive matchup only if you run it as your only member. Otherwise, it getting DTailed doesn't provide me much results. I set up 2 Bulk Ups on Fraxure, which tried to outpower me by setting up 3 DDs. Brick Break OHKOed with these boosts. +2 Brick Break 2HKOes Druddigon, +3 OHKOs (I set up another one on the turn he healed it). Haxorus is OHKOed by +3 Brick Break. Only worrying thing about his team is if Slash crits, ignoring the Defense buffs

matchup: positive alone, ??? if with teammates.

I am gonna avoid going over level 50 for the E4 and N.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Skyla update; all mons level 38
Excadrill: Hone Claws Rock Slide sweep; Swoobat outspeeds but does nothing.
Emboar: Heat Crash OHKOs Unfezant and Swoobat. Likely looses to Swanna.
Whimsicott: Only testing it vs. Swanna, which it 2HKOs via Miracle Seed (likely a slight range). I could stall the others out but blah blah not efficient. Swanna used Aqua Ring on it first turn for reference.
Archeops: Literally outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Acrobatics.
Audino: Pretty easy solo. You can gradually kill Swoobat with Charge Beam (better since Audino 2HKOs stuff with +1 Return otherwise). You might miss a bit and may need to heal but still more than possible here. Would probably be easier with screens but I didn't test this.

Excadrill might actually need to move back up to S. Drilbur aside from finding it and that initial rut has been consistently amazing everywhere. Nothing outspeeds it. Nothing lives even non-STAB super-effective Rock Slides, It has the perfect boosting move when foes are immune to Ground STAB. This is a POWERHOUSE, and more should test it. It is so unstoppable when you hit 31 you can even wait to 36 for EQ fine.

Archen likewise is pretty unstoppable. Even without Acrobatics, it's AncientPower and Crunch OHKO so many things, and once you get Archeops nothing lives again ever. Archen has only been outsped a few times anyway so that is not an issue. Aside from Elesa and Skyla it dominates and probably should stay S because any move it uses kills pretty much everything, and remember mooks mostly stay unevolved until you get Archeops so nothing can really take Acrobatics from Archen. You can even use Lucky Egg on Rock or Dark weak trainers to get Archeops quicker (very good to do on the way to and inside Celestial Tower). Also I got the omnibuff like 5 times after Mistralton so lol.

Everyone else is performing fine like you'd expect them to. Emboar is likely B, while Whimsicott is C and Audino is actually C because it is pretty great everywhere despite the fact its offenses start to fall off later on, nothing can really kill it while it boosts.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

this one is the results from the E4 battles

Shauntal:

Gothitelle(47): This one surprised me, because Goth actually did something there. With Expert Belt, you 2HKO with Shadow Ball Cofagrigus, which doesn't OHKO with Shadow Ball. You also 2HKO Golurk, which happened to Curse against me and kill itself when I was healthy. Jellicent is only 3HKOed, but doesn't OHKO with Shadow Ball, so if weakened, you can actually win this. Chandelure outspeeds and 2HKOes with Shadow Ball. Sadly, it itself is only 3HKOed, making this matchup complete lose

matchup: surprisingly okay

Gigalith(46): It's burned by Cofagrigus and then 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, so this one is pretty much a loss. Golurk can Earthquake you to death and you have no ways of hitting it with more than a resisted attack. It can also Curse to deal fixed damage, ignoring Iron Defense. Jellicent Surfs it to death. The only theoritically good matchup here is Chandelure, but in order to achieve it, you must hit 4 times with Rock Blast.

matchup: pretty bad, even its only good matchup is situational.

Sawk(47): Even if you teach it Payback, it only 2HKOes Cofagrigus at +2, this assumes Will-o-Wisp misses. Chandelure is only 3HKOed by Payback and has Psychic to shit on it. Finally, Payback doesn't deal much to Jellicent either, so it also beats. Golurk after Curse is OHKOed by +1 Payback.

matchup: meh, at least beats Golurk.

Cinccino(47): The only mon here that it cannot beat is Cofagrigus, due to burning it. It needs in total 4 Bullet Seeds with Expert Belt to OHKO Golurk, though the one I faced Cursed so it killed itself after 2. Jellicent needs 4 Bullet Seeds as well. Chandelure I think needed 3 or 4, I don't remember, but it was a good matchup nonethless, since FBlast doesn't OHKO fortunately.

matchup: good, not perfect due to Cofagrigus.

Chandelure(49): With Expert Belt, Shadow Ball OHKOed both Cofagrigus and Golurk (there's a chance it doesn't OHKO Cofag, but it's like really low I would say). Jellicent is 2HKOed and Chandy survives a Surf. When I sent my own Chandy against her own at full HP, it survived her Shadow Ball barely and I OHKOed back.

Matchup: Pretty good, probably the best matchup of my team.

Grimsley:

Sawk: One Bulk Up and then Brick Break OHKOes everything with Expert Belt. The only mons that outspeed it are Krook and Liepard, though Defense buff comes in. Scrafty Sand Attacks you, but as long as you hit, you are gonna be fine.

Matchup: Really good

Gothitelle: Yeah you know how's it gonna go, doesn't even learn Focus Blast

Gigalith: The only good matchup here is Liepard, which is 2HKOed by Rock Slide. Scrafty can Brick Break it and you don't have much options to hit hardly, other than Bulldoze. It can also decrease accuracy and poison you with Poison Jab if you try to Iron Defense. Krookodile is similar situation, you can set up Iron Defense but you aren't hitting hard, especially with that attack debuf. Bisharp, you could theoritically go with Bulldoze... until you remember it has Defiant. You need to go out of your way to not trigger Defiant too much. Bulldoze is a 3HKO, so you need to get it in range to be finished off, while throwing few Hyper Potions

Matchup: meh

Chandelure: Fire Blast 2HKOes Scrafty. It also survives a Crunch. Krookodile is 2HKOed as well, though Chandy is outsped and OHKOed by Earthquake (for some reason, AI went with Foul Play and almost OHKOed me). Fire Blast is an OHKO on Liepard. It tried to Attract me, but surprise surprise, Bright Powder came into power! Bisharp, sadly, outspeeds and OHKOs with Night Slash. If my Chandy outsped or survived though it'd have OHKOed with Fblast, but that is not relevant.

matchup: eh, at least beats half of his team.

Cinccino: Cannot OHKO Scrafty and in turn is OHKOed by Brick Break. Liepard needs 4 Tail Slaps to be OHKOed. Night Slash 2HKOes Cinccino and Attract is also annoying to face. Krookodile is OHKOed by 3 Expert Belt Bullet Seeds. I do not have Wake Up Slap on this one (for which I apolgozie, but the set I am using is also working well), but I assume it'd OHKO Bisharp. It helps that Cinccino outspeeds as well.

Matchup: rather shaky

Just gonna mention, taught CC over Brick Break on Sawk. Also can someone explain how is Grimsley's Krookodile so fast?!

Caitlin:

Sawk: Payback is only a 3HKO on Reuniclus. Unless the AI derps and tries to Focus Blast you, only to miss, you lose this matchup. Musharna is too bulky to be defeated by Sawk alone. Sigilyph, on the other hand, cannot OHKO it if it has Sturdy and, since Sawk is outsped, Payback OHKOes. Pretty nice. Gothitelle, Payback is 3HKO due to Sawk outspeeding. The only way to win this matchup is if Gothitelle Calm Minds while you are at full HP.

matchup: between shaky and eh, because you can beat half the team but with huge item support

Gothitelle: Expert Belt Shadow Ball is 2HKO on Reuniclus. Reuni's only option of hitting Goth is with Thunder. Musharna is 3HKOed and 2HKOes with Shadow Ball (+1 Shadow Ball is a 2HKO though). Sigilyph is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Its Shadow Ball is a 3HKO unless it gets a SpD drop on the first hit. Her own Gothitelle has Calm Mind to boost itself. It is 3HKOed but was outsped. You can try to set up Charge Beam boosts on Reuniclus, but it requires Thunder to miss, so I am not considering it too much

matchup: ok-ish

Cinccino: It needs 6 Tail Slaps in total to beat Reuniclus. And that's happening only if FBlast misses. If it hits, it's dead. Musharna: if it uses Reflect, Encore it and then, bam, deadweight. 7 hits outside of Reflect are needed. With Reflect, 14. Sigilyph is KOed by 3 hits from Expert Belt Rock Blast. Also, Cinccino outsped. Gothitelle: Guess what, it's dumb enough to try and set up Calm Mind, so yup, Encore again.

Matchup: Rather good

Gigalith: Reuniclus and Musharna are too bulky for its Rock Slide; they are both only 3HKOed and can 2HKO it themselves. Sigilyph isn't OHKOed by Rock Slide, but 4 Rock Blasts will OHKO it. Rock Slide isn't even a 3HKO on Gothitelle

Matchup: pretty bad, only good matchup is situational

Chandelure: Expert Belt Shadow Ball OHKOes Reuniclus, while Musharna is 2HKOed, but its Shadow Ball is also a 2HKO on Chandelure. Sigilyph outspeeds, but Chandelure survives a Shadow Ball and OHKOes back with Shadow Ball. Gothitelle was almost OHKOed, but it decided to go with Calm Mind after that. Since I was faster, I KOed it.

Matchup: pretty good

Marshal:

Cinccino: Throh needs in total 8 hits of Tail Slap to faint. However, that is only happening if the AI derps and uses Bulldoze first turn and you are considerably lucky to actually get 8 hits in the span of 2 turns. Mienshao: You need 5 Tail Slaps to KO. My Cinccino speed tied it, which makes this matchup even more unreliable, Jump Kick OHKOes. Cinccino needs 4 hits to KO Sawk. Its Karate Chop was a 2HKO, interestingly, so Cinccino wins this matchup, if Tail Slap doesn't miss in both times. Conkeldurr: Needs around 6 Tail Slaps to be fainted. And then it Hammer Arms you in the face.

Matchup: unreliable, since you need to be tons of lucky to win this

Sawk: I set up 2 Bulk Ups against Throh. It used Bulldoze twice and outsped me after that and used Storm Throw, luckily Sawk survived and OHKOed with Close Combat. Conk: I set up 2 more Bulk Ups to increase my Defense, had to use 2 Hyper Potions (cause one Hammer Arm critted). It doesn't deal much with +3 Defense and you OHKO with CC at +4. Mienshao: Jump Kick doesn't do much either, and is OHKOed by +4 Low Sweep. Sawk: Just be careful of Karate Chop critting. +4 Low Sweep triggers Sturdy and once he stops healing it, you win

matchup: pretty solid

Gigalith: Throh: For some reason, Throh rarely clicked Storm Throw. I had equipped Gigalith with Rocky Helmet to see if I can do something with it. The AI mostly went with Stone Edge and Bulldoze, and used more rarely Payback and Storm Throw. I suspect the AI knew I was holding RHelmet, judging by the fact it spammed non-contact moves, and thought it wasn't a good idea to make contact with me. I set up an Iron Defense, which made everything bar Storm Throw laughable. If my theory is correct, this is a 50/50 matchup, since you need to spam Hyper Potions to keep it alive in the event the AI learns it's better to Storm Throw it. Conkeldurr: I set up 2 more Iron Defenses. At +2 Defense, Hammer Arm was only a 3HKO. RHelmet helped me in weakening it down, but I had to spam quite a bit of Hyper Potions. Mienshao: Jump Kick does almost nothing at +6 Defense. I weakeaned with a combo of Rock Blast + Bulldoze + RHelmet. Sawk: Unless it crits, Karate Chop does even less than Jump Kick. Again, Bulldoze + RHelmet damage is main source of damage

Matchup: Okay-ish, needs lots of item support and exploit of a possibly bugged AI, as I do not know for certain why it did that thing with Throh. Also, Bulldoze + RHelmet is kind of slow, but only reliable way of damage source.

Chandelure: Throh: FBlast is a 2HKO. It goes for Bulldoze and then outspeeds you on the next turn. It tried to Stone Edge me, but thanks to my Brightpowder, it missed, however, Chandy is shaky in this matchup. Also, DO NOT burn this, it has Guts!!! Sawk: It outspeeds and almost OHKOs with Stone Edge. I burned it and made Stone Edge a 3HKO, with no crits. FBlast + 2 burn damages are enough to faint it. Conk: Burned Stone Edge is a 2HKO, but 1 FBlast + 1 burn damage are enough to faint it. So hope you don't miss either. Mienshao: FBlast is a 2HKO, Rock Slide 2HKOes it. Burned Rock Slide is a 3HKO but you need to hit with WoW on first place and not be flinched by Rock Slide, then heal.

Matchup: I would say between okay-ish and solid, due to being able to beat 3 members, though 1 unreliably.

Gothitelle: Throh: I first went with Charge Beam to boost my attack, then KOed with Expert Belt Psychic. Unboosted one is 2HKO from full. It tries to Payback you, but luckily, boosted one doesn't OHKO. Mienshao: Mienshao tried to finish it off with Jump Kick, but I healed. Then it went for Retaliate for some reason. Goth survived both attacks and OHKOed with Psyshock. Sawk: Stone Edge is a 3HKO with no crits. You need 2 Psychics due to Sturdy, possibly more due to Full Restore spam. Conkeldurr: Along with Throh, this is also outsped. +1 Expert Belt Psychic is an OHKO.

Matchup: positive

Next post will be about N and Ghetsis, to not make this too long.