Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Pikachu315111 said:
But that's when another realization came: if the Dirfloon family are in the game, why didn't THEY get any of the new Wind-based Abilities?
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It's because they already have 3 abilities and they are, by & large, uninterested in altering old abilities.
The only exceptions were various unreleased hidden abilities from gen 5 that got changed in gen 6 and........Scolipede, who switched Quick Feet for Speed Boost. For some reason???

Though even if they were more interested in doing ability changes like that Drifloon probably would still remain unaltered, it's 3 abilities are quite flavorful as it is.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
So, in addition to "Slicing" now being a new "Usage Method" (as Bulbapedia puts it), "Wind" is also. This is because there's two new Abilities which use Wind-based moves, and the usual suspects are on the list (Gust, Hurricane, Fairy Wind, Icy Wind, Whirlwind, Heat Wave, etc.). However, there's one noticeable one missing: Ominous Wind. Well, turns out, Ominous Wind was a Move that was cut in Sword & Shield. EXCEPT it was brought back in Legends: Arceus. I wondered why, but then I remembered that Legends: Arceus used the Drifloon family as a common enemy during nighttime.

"Alright, makes sense, no Drifloon family, no need for Ominous Wind I guess".

Except, the Drifloon family IS IN SCARLET AND VIOLET! Infact, they're also in Sword & Shield! They're not as notable as they are in Legends: Arceus, but still they're in the games so why cut Ominous Wind? While it was never a official Signature Move, it was pretty much linked to the Drifloon family; infact it not being a Signature Move meant it made for a decent inbetween until you got Shadow Ball if you wanted a Special Ghost-type move.

But that's when another realization came: if the Dirfloon family are in the game, why didn't THEY get any of the new Wind-based Abilities? Well, let's look at them. One makes sense why, Wind Power, which is a Signature Ability for a new Electric Bird which makes its Electric moves more powerful when hit by a Wind move. Oddly specific, GF feel like you may want to expand on that one a bit, but whatever, not something Drifloon family will get. But the second Ability: Wind Rider. If hit with a Wind move or in a Tailwind, this Pokemon doesn't get damaged and increased Attack by +1 stage. The Pokemon which has Wind Rider? A GHOST/Grass-type!

Seriously? "Oh, well it increases Attack so it wouldn't be that useful on Drifloon family". They could have also made it raise its Special Attack, Speed, or something (could have just made the next attack it does do increased damage). In addition, that new Ghost/Grass (not gonna say what it is cause it's kind of amazing they did it) isn't really that great of a Physical Attacker. It feels like it has a bit of that "Pyroar Design Syndrome" where the Stat team decided it was a Physical Attacker but the Movepool team decided it was a Special Attacker. So it's all the more frustrating that this Ability which the Drifloon family should have access to not only it doesn't but doesn't really help the Pokemon it's the Signature Ability for.
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I would also add that the ability is literally called Wind Rider. What do people or anything with Hot Air Balloons use to get around again?

And it's not like the stat boost needs to strictly be useful for an ability granting potentially relevant immunities to matter. Blizzard, Hurricane, and Heat Wave all seem like useful moves to outright no-sell given Drifblim's typing for example (would have blanked most of last-Gen's Nasty Plot Tornadus-T for example), and certainly gives a bulky utility mon with questionable offensive options, like Drifblim, a better ability option than Aftermath or Unburden (in a game without Flying Gem).

This ability is practically screaming to go to this thing, as even flavor wise it seems more directly fitting than at least one of its current 3.
 
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LonelyGaruga said:
Drifloon and Drifblim do not learn Ominous Wind in Legends: Arceus. The only Pokemon that do are Chingling and Chimecho. It's also the first time they learned the move. Wind chime connection, but still...
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Oh, you're right. Drifloon family does learn it via Move Tutor, but the only ones who learn it via Level-Up is the Chimecho family which the move is new for (along with the new Pokemon added to the game, though those are also via Tutor (as for are all the other Pokemon that are in the game which once learned it via level-up or from another source)). Of course this only makes it more odd that they would cut it again. Looking at their movepool, they already had a Ghost-type move they could have used but for some reason swapped it out for Ominous Wind: Astonish. :blobthinking:
 
The vast majority of fully-evolved Pokemon (and some choice NFEs) get Hyper Beam, including single-stage Pokemon. This includes some you might not expect, like Klefki, Liepard, Basculin, Pachirisu, Sableye, Johtonian Qwilfish, Murkrow, Furret, Tangela, Parasect, and Butterfree. Even Delibird finally gains Hyper Beam in Gen IX after not getting it before.

Skarmory, though, is a notable omission. It's never had access to Hyper Beam, or even Giga Impact. To put that in a little more context, Ribombee, Shiinotic, and Spidops can all learn Giga Impact but Skarmory cannot.

Any other fully-evolved mons out there who don't get Hyper Beam or Giga Impact? I'm sure there must be others...
 
green_typhlosion said:
The vast majority of fully-evolved Pokemon (and some choice NFEs) get Hyper Beam, including single-stage Pokemon. This includes some you might not expect, like Klefki, Liepard, Basculin, Pachirisu, Sableye, Johtonian Qwilfish, Murkrow, Furret, Tangela, Parasect, and Butterfree. Even Delibird finally gains Hyper Beam in Gen IX after not getting it before.

Skarmory, though, is a notable omission. It's never had access to Hyper Beam, or even Giga Impact. To put that in a little more context, Ribombee, Shiinotic, and Spidops can all learn Giga Impact but Skarmory cannot.

Any other fully-evolved mons out there who don't get Hyper Beam or Giga Impact? I'm sure there must be others...
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DrPumpkinz said:
/nds fe, !hyper beam, all returns a lot of Pokemon who definitely have learned Hyper Beam at some point.
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I was working on that already
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Apologies for awkward cropping, the first list didn't fit on one screengrab.

Interesting that there's a large number of legendaries that don't get hyper beam/giga impact. The gen 3, 4, 8, and 9 box legends do but the gen 2, 5, 6, and 7 ones don't.

Edit: first list didn't seem to be working right.
 
/nds isn't working correctly at the moment, so I combined the results of the searches from Gens 7 - 9 based on the last generation in which each Pokemon appears. There is a slight error in that Dunsparce and Girafarig came up in past gen searches as they were fully-evolved Pokemon at the time.
Carbink, Castform, Chatot, Corsola, Ditto, (Dunsparce), Emolga, Farfetch’d, (Girafarig), Illumise, Indeedee, Kecleon, Luvdisc, Maractus, Minun, Morpeko, Nihilego, Oricorio, Phione, Plusle, Pyukumuku, Rotom, Shuckle, Skarmory, Spinda, Stunfisk, Stunfisk-Galar, Unown, Volbeat, Wishiwashi
Araquanid, Armarouge, Ceruledge, Chimecho, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Sirfetch’d, Tinkaton, Toucannon, Wobbuffet
As expected, most of the Pokemon which don't get either move are single-stage Pokemon. Nihilego is weirdly the only legendary Pokemon which does not get either move (aside from legendary prevos).
 
A_Wild_Noob_Appeared! said:
/nds isn't working correctly at the moment, so I combined the results of the searches from Gens 7 - 9 based on the last generation in which each Pokemon appears. There is a slight error in that Dunsparce and Girafarig came up in past gen searches as they were fully-evolved Pokemon at the time.
Carbink, Castform, Chatot, Corsola, Ditto, (Dunsparce), Emolga, Farfetch’d, (Girafarig), Illumise, Indeedee, Kecleon, Luvdisc, Maractus, Minun, Morpeko, Nihilego, Oricorio, Phione, Plusle, Pyukumuku, Rotom, Shuckle, Skarmory, Spinda, Stunfisk, Stunfisk-Galar, Unown, Volbeat, Wishiwashi
Araquanid, Armarouge, Ceruledge, Chimecho, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Sirfetch’d, Tinkaton, Toucannon, Wobbuffet
As expected, most of the Pokemon which don't get either move are single-stage Pokemon. Nihilego is weirdly the only legendary Pokemon which does not get either move (aside from legendary prevos).
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Glad I checked back here before getting too deep in manually checking every hyper beam user off the list of fully evolved mons. Might have been feasible if I wasn't using one alphabetical list and one pokedex number list, but darn it, questions need to be answered.

BIG ASHLEY said:
the gen 5 legends definitely do - they use them in the climatic n fight in bw
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I was basing that off my bugged /nds list. I think it doesn't know that dexited mons have movepools.
 
green_typhlosion said:
The vast majority of fully-evolved Pokemon (and some choice NFEs) get Hyper Beam, including single-stage Pokemon. This includes some you might not expect, like Klefki, Liepard, Basculin, Pachirisu, Sableye, Johtonian Qwilfish, Murkrow, Furret, Tangela, Parasect, and Butterfree. Even Delibird finally gains Hyper Beam in Gen IX after not getting it before.

Skarmory, though, is a notable omission. It's never had access to Hyper Beam, or even Giga Impact. To put that in a little more context, Ribombee, Shiinotic, and Spidops can all learn Giga Impact but Skarmory cannot.

Any other fully-evolved mons out there who don't get Hyper Beam or Giga Impact? I'm sure there must be others...
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Well I'm bored and have nothing else to do, so let's just walk through Hyper Beam on Bulbapedia

Gen 1:
Farfetch'd
Onix - Steelix did
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Ditto - Gimmick pokemon, so fair.

The Htimons are pretty unusual, especially as time went on. They also don't get Giga Impact.

Gen 2:
Sudowoodo
Aipom - Ambipom did
Yanma - Yanmega did
Unown & Wobbuffet - Gimmick Pokemon
Murkrow, Misdreavus, Girafarig & Dunsparce did get Hyper Beam....in Scarlet & Violet. Little late there on those last two....
Gligar- Gliscor did
Qwilfish - Neither Qwilfish got Hyper Beam even in LA; Overqwil did, though
Shuckle
Heracross had to wait until Gen 3
Sneasel - Weavile did
Corsola - Cursola did
Delibird, as you mentioned, had to also wait until SV.
Mantine had to wait until Gen 4
Skarmory, also as you mentioned
Stantler had to wait until SV
Hitmontop

Gen 2 had a lot of these. The SV thing is going to become a pattern moving forward
I guess Shuckle is kind of a gimmick? It's not in the same vein as Unown or Wobbfs, but it is hyper defensive.

Gen 3
So it's not as relevant to this conversation but Kirlia of all things got Hyper Beam added as a TM in SV. Gardevoir has never had an issue with this, nor has Gallade

Nosepass - Probopass did
Sableye never got it until SV
Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise have not and still do not have it
Roselia - Roserade did
Torkoal didn't get it until gen 4
Spinda
Zangoose & Seviper didn't get it until SV
Castform
Kecleon
Chimecho - you might think it would have gotten it in Gen 4 like Mantine did, but no.
Luvdisc

Guess because of being standalone...except there's other standalones that DID get it like Solrock or Mawile....

Gen 4
Pachirisu had to wait until SV
Chatot
Rotom
Phione

Yep just those 3. I guess in Phione's defense it's...kind of...unevolved? Going through the list I suspect pikaclones just werent allowed to have Hyper Beam??

Gen 5
Sawk
Throh
Basculin didn't get it until SV
Maractus
Emolga
Alomomola didn't get it until SV
Stunfisk
Bouffalant
Heatmor
Durant

Well at least this had a consistent theme: stand alone Pokemon. At this point I assume that SV will just add Hyper Beam to standalone pokemon (or...former ones, i guess) if they get brought back

Gen 6
Hawlucha, Dedenne, Carbink didn't get it until SV
Furfrou!

Interestingly Klefki, despite also being a stand alone Gen 6 pokemon, DID get it from the start. Strange

Gen 7
Decidueye & Primarina didnt' get it until Gen 8. You would think that of the starters, it would at least go to Primarina but guess not
Ribombee, Mudsdale, Shiinotic, Tsareena, Oranguru, Golisopod, Togedemaru, Marshadow & Zeraora didn't get it until Gen 8 either.
Gumshoos, Crabominable, Toxapex, Salazzle, Palossand, Komala, Bruxish didn't get it until SV
Toucannon
Oricorio
Lycanroc (none of the forms)
Wishiwashi
Araquanid
Pyukumuku - Fair enough, it's moveset gimmick again
Nihilego
Buzzwole
Kartana
Stakataka

Well this is a mess. I think some of these you can possibly hand wave of a change in philosophy, like "oh these ones get Giga Impact isntead" but that's still a lot of oddities (Oranguru, Bruxish, Palossand, Salazzle all stand out as an example)

Gen 8
Sirfetch'd - ????
Pincurchin got it in SV
Eiscue got it in SV. I msut underline here that Stonjourner got Hyper Beam, but not Eiscue
Indeedee
Morpeko - even though togedemaru got it in gen 8 so its not like they thought it'd be out of place surely?
Urshifu

Genuinely no clue why the ones who didn't get it, didn't get it. Indeedee in particular is bizarre because it's in SV, a game that has otherwise bent over backwards to get Hyper Beam to everything prior to gen 9 that 's fully evolved, used to be fully evolved, or otherwise cannot evolve.

Gen 9
Spidops
Lokix
Wugtrio
Aramarouge
Ceruledge
Tinkaton

Again I don't think the "they got Giga Impact" really holds up as an excuse when there's plenty of Physical Attackers that got Hyper Beam. And how does the arm cannon pokemon not get Hyper Beam??

And as for Giga Impact. I'll ignore pokemon that were NFE by gen 4 whose evolution got it
Gen 1
Farfetch'd
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Ditto - again gimmick, fair

Why the hitmons...

Gen 2 - rest assured a lot of pokemon that were "NFE" by SV, got the move in SV for some reason
Sudowoodo
Unown
Wobbuffet
Girafarig, Dunsparce, Qwilfish had to wait until SV
Shuckle
Corsola
Delibird got it in SV
Skarmory, as you mentioned
Hitmontop

Gen 3
Sableye had to wait until SV
Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise....
Spinda
Zangoose & SEviper??????? also had to wait until SV????
Castform
Kecleon
Chimecho
Luvdisc

Gen 4
Pachi got it in SV
Chatot
Rotom
Phione

Gen 5
Audino didn't get it until SWSH
Basculin didn't get it until SV
Maractus
Sigilyph didn't get it until SWSH
Emolga
Alomomola didn't get it until SV
Cryogonal didn't get it until SV
Stunfisk

So some HB-less pokemon got GI, but not all of the ones you'd expect.

Gen 6
Carbink didnt get it until SV

Yeah literally only Carbink. Even Dedenne got it

Gen 7
Toucannon
Gumshoos didnt get it until SV
Oricorio
Wishiwashi
RIbombee, Lycanroc got it in Gen 8.
Toxapex
Araquanid
Salazzle didn't get it until SV
Comfey
Komala didn't get it until SV
Pyukumuku
Mimikyu got it in Gen 8
Nihilego
Blacephalon


Gen 8
SIRFETCH'D ARE YOU FOR REAL? IT'S THE MOST GIGA IMPACT GIGA IMPACT GUY
Pincurchin
Eiscue
Indeedee
Morpeko

Seems SV was not as kind to handing out Giga Impact as it was Hyper Beam

Gen 9
Tinkaton
Armarouge
Ceruledge

.....wha???

this took too long and like 20 posts came in but tough --you're reading it anyway.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
While it was never a official Signature Move, it was pretty much linked to the Drifloon family;
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I'm glad someone else pointed this out since I find the connection between ominous wind and the Drifloon line pretty interesting. Considering the very specific flavor of the move along with being released in the same generation as the Drifloon line, it feels like the move was designed for it in mind like a signature move, just being distributed to more Pokemon. I'm interested in seeing if there are other moves like this, and here are some moves I think fit this criteria.

Steel wing
This move was introduced in gen 2 along with the Pokemon Skarmory.
While many Pokémon could get the move via tm, the move feels tailor made for Skarmory. Skarmory is also the only Pokemon in gen 2 that could learn the move via level up, which makes this connection even stronger to me.

Metal claw
This move also introduced in gen 2 feel like it was made for Scizor. Only Scizor and Sneasel can learn the move via level up, which feels similar to how steel wing is connected to Skarmory.


Head Smash
This move is only gotten via level up for the Cranidos line and Relicanth, and every other pokemon that gets the move has it as an egg move.

Hurricane
This move debuted in gen 5 with Tornadus. I wonder if this move was made so it could have a move stronger than gust or twister that would fit it thematically. It could also serve a counterpart to Thundurus learning Thunder. The two moves have the same base power and 100% accuracy in rain mechanic, and both of these moves are learned by their respective genie at level 67.
 
I dunno, unlike the other examples, every gen IV Ghost besides Mismagius and Dusknoir learns Ominous Wind by level. It really doesn't come off as a move designed for the Drifloon line to me. Not like say, Moonlight, which is clearly designed as Umbreon's signature and a counterpart to Morning Sun, a true signature for Espeon in its debut, but is also learned by the Clefairy and Oddish lines and an egg move for Exeggcute.
 
LonelyGaruga said:
I dunno, unlike the other examples, every gen IV Ghost besides Mismagius and Dusknoir learns Ominous Wind by level. It really doesn't come off as a move designed for the Drifloon line to me. Not like say, Moonlight, which is clearly designed as Umbreon's signature and a counterpart to Morning Sun, a true signature for Espeon in its debut, but is also learned by the Clefairy and Oddish lines and an egg move for Exeggcute.
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Yeah the connection might be a bit shakier since it has a wider level up distribution. My criteria is less based on hard rules and more so what moves seem likely to made for or inspired by a certain Pokemon. Hurricane also is learned by level by multiple pokemon, but the idea of hurricane potentially serving as a counterpart to thunder on thunderous makes that connection feel stronger to me. The connection between the Diftloon line and ominous wind feels right to me but it does have less evidence going for this actually being the case when compared to these other moves. Moonlight being connected to umbreon along with acting as a counterpart to espeon having morning sun is a pretty cool detail. It's definitely interesting whenever I learn that a move that I thought was normal actually used to be a signature move.

A weird example of that to me is spark was actually the signature move of the Laturn line and Raikou in gen 2.

While looking at moves I found the distribution of sludge to be pretty weird
Considering that it is a move with a somewhat low base power of 65, along with having very similar flavor to the stronger more widely distributed sludge bomb, it feel like a early game move that acts as a stepping stone to sludge bomb. The actual distribution of the move is actually less widespread than sludge bomb, and it only shows up as a level up move on a handful of Pokemon. So if sludge isn't the poison type move meant to be used in the early to mid game, than what is?

Maybe the answer to that question for some Pokemon is just to not give them a poison type move for their level up movepool.
DrumstickGaming said:
luxray gets Wild Charge in SWSH and SV at level 80.
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while Luxray getting wild charge at such a high level is pretty bad, at least it can learn a electric type attacking move via level up, and can get spark at a earlier level.

Both the Gengar line and Venisaur seem to just not have poison type attack available by level up. Venisaur only gets access to poison powder, which is extra sad as at least it could have gotten the good poison inflicting status move in toxic.
I decided out of curiosity to see if this is an issue for any other poison types, looking at the level up movesets of all some of the poison types currently in Scarlet and Violet.
While working on the list I'm have realized that most of these problems seem to be with gen 1 Pokemon, rather than this being a more widespread issuse with level up movepools. Considering most of these movepools are decent I'm just going to list the movepools that are actually bad for the newer pokemon, rather than list every single one.

Venonat line
This line does get a poison type attack, but possibly in one of the saddest ways possible, getting poison fang at level 47 (or 41 if you really want to wait that long with venonat) a move that isn't even the right category for venomoth's much higher special attack stat.
Galarian Slowbro
This pokemon is rather lucky since it just gets it's signature move Shell Side Arm for a poison type attack after evolving. While Galarian slowpoke can use acid starting at level 6 until you evolve it.
Galarain Slowking
all it gets is carrying over acid from Galarian slowpoke movepool.
Grimer line
This move gets sludge at a low level, and can get more moves like sludge bomb, sludge wave, gunk shot, and belch later on. Unfortnatly most of these are special attacking moves that don't make the higher attack stat of Grimer and Muk, and the only physical poison move gunk shot is one of the later moves obtained at level 40 for Muk. This still is pretty nice though and shows a decent way to handle poison type moves for special attacking poison types.
Gastly line
No poison type moves in level up learnset
Paldean wooper line
This probably the best level up moveset so far when it comes to poison type attacks. It gets poison tail early on to work with it's physical attack stat, and gets poison jab later on. It even gets toxic in the level up moveset which is cool.
Qwilfish
Starting with poison sting is akward but at least this eventually gets poison jab and toxic so this is decent.
Gulpin line
Another pokemon who enjoys having sludge as a early game move. Along with that you can get plenty of other poison types moves, with acid spray being a interesting option you get shortly after sludge. While getting sludge bomb at level 37 is a bit late, I think you can get gunk shot instead from the move relearner
Foongus line
This seems the newest Pokemon who has a bad level up movepool when it comes to poison type moves. While toxic is nice, it only actually attacking option is clear smog which has a pretty low base power.
Answering my question about what poison type moves are given as early to mid game options, it seems to be a mixture of moves like acid spray, acid, poison tail, sludge and some other low base power poison type moves.
 
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DrumstickGaming said:
"Beams like lightning shoot down from its tentacles. It’s known to some as the Raging Goddess."

-Hatterne's Shield dex entry, yet it can't learn Thunderbolt, despite getting Thunder Wave via TM and Nuzzle via Egg moves.
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To be fair, that's the G-Max entry and referring to its G-Max Move, G-Max Smite
800px-G-Max_Smite_VIII_2.png


which i guess makes this fairy magic lightning?


Still I'd have given Hatterene Thunder in SV as reference to it.
 
A_Wild_Noob_Appeared! said:
It's weird that Wish Chansey/Blissey is still exclusive to a Gen 3 event. They're the de-facto mascot for Pokemon Centers and they have most of the other team healing moves already (Heal Pulse, Healing Wish, Heal Bell, Life Dew). Might as well complete the package.
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Exclusive to a north american event, no less.

I presume they just do not want Chansey/Blissey passing that much HP through Wish.
 
R_N said:
Exclusive to a north american event, no less.

I presume they just do not want Chansey/Blissey passing that much HP through Wish.
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Remember, in Gen V they changed Wish so that it heals half the HP of the receiver. There's no reason the Chansey family shouldn't have it now.

EDIT: Nevermind. :facepalm:
 
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Pikachu315111 said:
Remember, in Gen V they changed Wish so that it heals half the HP of the receiver. There's no reason the Chansey family shouldn't have it now.
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The reason is probably same as Eruption not appearing on Heatran: they're from obscure low distribution events which were not even legal outside of their gens, so they never even considered necessary to bring them over.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Remember, in Gen V they changed Wish so that it heals half the HP of the receiver. There's no reason the Chansey family shouldn't have it now.
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You have it backwards, actually - that's how it worked until Gen V, but since Gen V, Wish has been based on the user's HP instead of the recipient's. Wish on the Chansey line is stronger now than it was when it got the move, as its high base HP was a nonfactor at the time but now contributes a great deal.

Edit:
Also, Eruption Heatran actually was legal in Gen V VGC! (and saw significant usage at some tournaments in VGC 2013 specifically)
I've seen people suggest Heatran might even have been partly responsible for the restriction on transfer moves - the fact that its event was so obscure and low-distribution, then suddenly gained increased relevance a Gen later because of other mechanics (I want to say Fire Gem had something to do with it?), was understandably not a good thing, and it was outside of the scope of what Heatran was actually designed/"allowed" to do.
It goes without saying that they, uh, didn't give it Eruption in the main series to begin with for a reason, and Heatran was still one of the most infamously centralizing Pokémon in Gen VI after losing it (something something CHALK), so... yeah no that one is definitely "we don't want this" and not "we don't care." P:

Edit again: I just noticed "might be even have been partly" ... I can type
 
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