Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

[TCTphantom]

I have about the same experience (except I didn't use Starmie for Erika). Charmander does better than expected in bad matchup (like Brock and Misty and is pretty strong afterwards). By the way, from what I've read Brock attacks according to HP left, potentially explaining why it didn't go for Rock Tomb. Pikachu isn't that good for Misty but somehow potent in bad matchup.

I had less level but Erika was a bit less good with Hitmonlee and Raichu. Starmie is really that good although as you said requiring several tms and being found in mid-game makes me feel A-rank is better for it.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see your feelings on Zard, Raichu and Hitmonlee going on.

I'm going to comment briefly mons from the list.

Hitmonlee, Charizard, Pikachu, Staryu and Aerodactyl are tested by MX42 who details very well the role of each mon. I feel Hitmonlee is more of a B-tier due to being available in mid-game, struggling a bit against Koga and somewhat Blaine, Agatha and champion. Charizard I'm unsure and MX42'sthoughts will help a lot. Pikachu I'm a bit unsure but it loses to Brock, Misty, Erika isn't that good, Giovanni is a hard lose and other matchup except for Lorelei are kinda average so C-tier feels adequate for it. Starmie should be fine in A-tier because it just walks over the game but comes at a low level (without boosted exp unlike Jynx) in mid game and requires several tms. MX42 is going to help a lot with these mons. Aerodactyl is among the best mon and it's more of a matter of tiering philosophy to rank it.

Colteor will enlighten about Kadabra but from my experience it's just like Alakazam, sweeping through Erika, Koga, Blaine and Giovanni. Sabrina was a bit worse due to not having Calm Mind but regarding the IA, the win is highly possible. Lorelei was pretty much similar (even though it was a range on Slowbro at +6) and Bruno too. Gengar 2 can outspeed but otherwise Agatha is just as good. Lance is significantly worse because it's harder to outstall Gyarados' Hyper Beam and Aerodactyl outspeeds, still it can put work. Champion is a bit less good because Extreme Speed from Arcanine does more.



Hitmonchan was like Hitmonlee except it had worse Erika, Koga, Blaine and Giovanni was less good, just like Champion.

Golem quite frankly is nowhere near as good as B-tier like Gengar or Exeggutor. It loses badly to Misty, Erika and Lorelei. Koga was unreliable due to Rollout accuracy and Smokescreen. Blaine isn't even good due to double Intimidate and not being able to take repeated Fire Blast.

Colteor tested Magneton but the fact that it comes late, loses to Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno easily and isn't reliable enough in supposed good matchup like Lorelei and Agatha makes me think that C-tier is better for it. Lorelei and Agatha aren't 100% win without Leftovers and that sucks for a late-game encounter. Beating Lance's Gyarados and Aerodactyl is nice but Dragonite is going to overwhelm and Dragonair are hard to get past. It's alright for champion, beating 3 mons. It also needs a few TMs.

I already mentionned ground-types enough but they are quite frankly bad.

Drowzee, I might be wrong but it wasn't that good for a Psychic. Drowzee is frail and weak. Hypno is pretty good but lacks the power. For instance, even at +6, it couldn't OHKO Lapras or Dewgong from Lorelei and unlike Kadabra/Alakazam it doesn't have Recover so it wasn't even a win. It still was obviously strong for Erika and Koga but unlike other Psychic-types, it didn't have all that muc winning matchup. Drowzee is too weak for Surge and getting past Raichu is tricky. You can potentially beat Sabrina but it requires lots of time. Rival is pretty good most of the time so that's cool. Giovanni was a mostly free matchup. Even Bruno wasn't that good because it's too weak to OHKO Fight-types and if Onix uses Rock Tomb and it takes repeated hits it's a lose. Against Agatha, it can hope to take down 2 or 3 mons. Lance is incredibly tricky and except for Dragonair, it's not goinf far. It's pretty similar to other Psyhic-types in the sense that it has a good offensive typing and Calm Mind but it's much less reliable and its pre-evo is just plain bad.

Machoke was terrible. It's weaker than Machamp and way less bulky. Machamp had the advantage of barely winning important games like against Erika but that's not working for Machoke. Erika is a lose, Koga is a lose, Blaine is a lose and it can only hope to take down Rhyhorns and Dugtrio against Giovanni. You can set up on Cloyster if Slowbro is ko'ed against Lorelei and koing Dewgong before but it's not consistent nor reliable seeing as how Jynx can put you to sleep. Bruno is unlike its evolution far from guaranteed as it doesn't have the bulk to take too much hits. Agatha is really bad. Against Lance, it can only ko a Dragonair and just the Rhydon against Champion. Really Machoke was that bad and there as very fe reasons to use it unlike its evo.

Seel was just like Seaking. You find it in mid to late game at a decent level and it wrecks Blaine (thanks to Thick Fat) and Giovanni. Lorelei and Bruno are obviously bad. You can hope to take down Gengar 1 and Golbat against Agatha. It's a bit better than other water-types in C against Lance thanks to its Ice typing. It outspeeds and 2HKO Dragonairs from Lance. You can also 2HKO Dragonite while taking a hit so it's taken down 1v1. It's pretty solid for Champion as it OHKOes Rhydon, 2HKO Pidgey, can take down Arcanine at full health and outspeed and 2HKO Venusaur. Pretty cool mon that deserves C-tier.

Kabuto was something else really interesting that deserves D-tier, just like Omanyte. It easily defeats Blaine and Giovanni is free by setting up on Dugtrio and using Rain Dance+Surf that koes everything. Against Lorelei it 2HKOes Dewgong, Lapras and Cloyster and OHKO Jynx so that's pretty good even though it can be hard between Hail, Protect and only 2HKOing, still that's pretty solid. You can only OHKO Onixes against Bruno. Against Agatha Rock Slide 2HKOes Gengar and Golbat and OHKO Haunter. It's pretty hard for the Agatha lottery but it does something. Against Lance you can either beat Aero or Gyara. Champion is alright as it takes down Pidgey, Rhydon and potentially Arcanine if healthy enough.

Fearow is extremly good but I feel it's better placed in B-tier rather than A-tier, even though I wouldn't mind it going up. It's really strong in early to mid-game but less good afterwards. Blaine is a bit annoying due to Intimidate, Lorelei isn't that good, Lance is bad and champion isn't that good, not to mention that Brock is bad.

Zapdos was really good and the best mon currently in B imo. It has a strong performance against Blaine. Giovanni isn't too bad outside of Rhyhorns as you easily beat Nidos and Dugtrio. Lorelei is obviously good. Bruno is great outside of Onixes. Agatha is good because Zapdos is bulky and strong. Lance is great because it defeats Gyarados and Aerodactyl and can paralyse something. Champion is quite good. All i all Zapdos is incredible consistent and might be worth A-tier even though between coming late, hard to catch and not having automatic win, B-tier feels better for it.

Articuno is pretty good too, sweeping with ease Giovanni and having a really strong Lance fight. Agatha is pretty good. Lorelei and Blaine are impossible to get through and Bruno is annoying due to Rock Tomb. Champion outside of Arcanine is solid. B-tier seems good for it.

Haunter is pretty weird because it was really good but still less than Gengar. It might be B-tier worth but not sure because it requires several tms, comes late and has a few bad matchup like Blaine. Gengar is better in the sense that it outspeeds and OHKOes Alakazam with Shadow Punch and the power makes the difference for Lorelei and Lance's Gyarados (that was a range for Haunter iirc). More testing would help.

Arcanine was pretty nice, even though it ned to have Flamethrower from Game Corner. Arcanine has great stats and Intimidate is always great. Erika is an easy win, Koga is a nice matchup, Blaine is quite good thanks to Dig and it's potent against Bruno thanks to Intimidate. Agatha is an alright matchup thanks to its bulk. Lance and champion are kinda hard tho. It will require more testing but B-tier seems good because it's solid and can always put work.

Golduck seems fine in B. It has a really strong performance, taking down Koga, Blaine and Giovanni with ease while having a solid Sabrina fight. Against the elite 4, Agatha is pretty free after 3 Calm Mind and Lance is good with healing. Champion can get beaten at +4 with a Full Restore. Texas nominated for A-rank and I totally get why but between coming late, at a rather low level and losing to Lorelei and Bruno without doing much, I think A-tier would be better.

Likewise, Slowbro was really good. It was like a slow Starmie in the sense it just runs through the game, sweeping with ease every gym leader or elite 4 with support. I still think B-tier is better because it's found late, is hard to train and requires healing in some cases. It may need a Full Restore for Lorelei between Hail, Yawn and attacks. Bruno is free withtout a crit and no mon from Agatha can take a Psychic. Lance requires a Potion as Slowbro can't take too many hits. Champion is sweepable but will probably require a Full Restore because it can't afford taking too many hits. Slowbro is one of the best mon but sadly to me its late availability and requiring sometimes a Potion make it B-tier.

Lapras is another really solid Water-type. It just wins easily against Blaine and Giovanni. Sabrina isn't too hard (unlike water-types in C) due to its bulk. While it has to avoid Lorelei and Bruno, Agatha is pretty solid thanks to hitting rather hard and taking hits well and Lance is really great. Champion is also great as long as you avoid taking a SolarBeam from Venusaur. What separates it from Water-types in C is a good matchup against Sabrina and a better performance against Lance and rival.

Tentacruel is even better than Lapras. It has the same good matchup as Lapras (even Sabrina isn't hard because it outspeeds Alakazam and has impressive special bulk, taking less damages than Kingler for instance). While the Poison-type isnt a problem for Sabrina, it actually helps for Bruno (Clear Body is pretty clutch to avoid Rock Tomb speed drop) and it can take down the 2 Onixes and 1 to 2 Hitmon. Lance is also pretty good thanks to its special bulk and speed and beating Dragonite and Dragonair is possible. Champion is alright as it takes down Rhydon and one of Pidgeot/Arcanine or Venusaur.

Bellsprout and Oddish are quite similar in the fact that they are really situationnal mon. They are either incredibly good (Misty, Surge, Lorelei, Bruno) or just bad (Blaine, Agatha or Lance). C feels appropriate because they are good about half the time and kinda hard to train (especially Oddish).

Persian is pretty bad but Pickup from Meowth is amazing and Pay Day is a nice move if you're using something like Nidoking or Starmie that requires several tms. It's fairly weak but it can still take out 2 mons from Erika, is potent with Dig against Surge, outright wins against Sabrina and puts work against Blaine and Giovanni. While not reliable, Screech+attack always help and thanks to its Speed and Shadow Ball, Agatha is a good matchup. I feel that due to Pickup, Pay Day, (possibly Cut user), winning matchup against Sabrina and ability to do something with Screech + Attack, C-tier is fine.

Voltorb is possibly the worst Electric-type. Still, electric is a good typing and it really outspeeds everything. Explosion is also great and taking out something like a Grass-type from Erika or a Dragonair from Lance is pretty good. Rival matches are pretty good outside of the grass-type (that still can get explode on). It can somewhat put work against Sabrina, outspeeding everything, even though Calm Mind makes thing hard, hitting relatively hard with Thunderbolt or exploding. Against Blaine, it can take down 3 mons thanks to Explosion. It's pretty good against Lorelei, 2HKOing water-types (except Cloyster which is OHKOed) and explose on Jynx. It can always kill a Hitmon against Bruno. Agatha is pretty good as it outspeeds and 2HKO everything except for Arbok and Gengar 2. Against Lance, it can take down Gyarados, Aerodactyl and explose. Champion is alright and between koing Pidgey and Gyarados and explosing it does something. It's obviously not good but between good matchup against Lorelei and Agatha and being always helpful thanks to speed and explosion, C-tier looks good for it.

Texas already talked a lot about Aerodactyl so not going to be long but it's really solid. Blaine and Giovanni (outside Rhyhorn) are easy wins and the Elite 4 is fantastic. Training it isn't hard in Silph Co because once it gets to level 15-20, it can ko things by itself. I guess it's more a matter of philosophy but C-tier would look good for it, seeing its performance.

Farfetch'd I feel was more C-rank worthy. It's a nice HM Slave that happens to learn Swords Dance. I deleted Cut before learning Agility and it was great. It can potentially win vs Surge according to what it does and it sweeps Erika and Koga. Rival was also pretty good thanks to Swords Dance. Afterwards, it was harder, only taking down Blaine's 2 worst mon. Giovanni was alright as it can take down non-Rhyhorn mons. Lorelei was pretty bad(I should have tried Double Dancing on Cloyster). Agility and Swords Dance + Aerial Ace is a win against Agatha. Champion wasn't good but at least it won against Venusaur. Farfetch'd wasn't good but between its role of HM Slave and winning against Erika, Koga, potentially Surge and Agatha as well as having boosted exp, I think it deserves C-rank.

Omanyte was tested recently and it solidly wins against Blaine and Giovanni ad is solid against Agatha, Lance and champion (taking down 3/4 mons is amazing). I think D-tier is better than C-tier because unlike Aerodactyl it has some bad matchup (it only kills the useless Cloyster and Jynx against Lorelei and Bruno is extremly bad).

I had bad experiences with Vulpix. You need to catch it at a low level because otherwise it won't have Ember, learning Flamethrower early was dope tho. Erika is alright even though Vulpix is weak af. it doesn't win vs Koga, taking down only at most 3 mons. Sabrina is really luck reliant as usual. Blaine and Giovanni are hard loses. It can only hope to ko Cloyster and Jynx against Lorelei. It somewhat puts work vs Bruno thanks to WIll-o-Wisp but still that's not much. Agatha is alright but Ninetales doesn't hit hard and the Agatha lottery is going to be annoying. It's useless against Lance outside of bruning something. Against Champion, it can kill the grass-type or Pidgey. Really Ninetales was bad, especially compared to Arcanine, that is way better against Blaine and Koga and at least does something against Giovanni. D-tier feels alright for it.

Snorlax was really good. It comes in mid-game but just wins every battle except for Bruno. Its ability to outstall and win with RestStalk against nearly everything else is impressive. It just needs Shadow Ball for Agatha. Only Champion is a bit tricky because Rhydon does a lot with Earthquake but otuside of that, Snorlax just slowly beats everything. A-tier ssems fine for it.

Dodrio looks fine in B. It's a better Fearow found a bit later. It has roughly the same matchup and is in the same rank due to coming later.

Gengar is really good despite requiring several tms. It had perfect matchup against Erika, Koga, Sabrina, killed the 2 baby mons against Blaine and had a clean sweep against Giovanni. Against lorelei it beats everything but Jynx. Bruno was solid as except for Hitmonchan (hat otuspeeds after a Rok Tomb), it could defeat everything. Agatha is good except for Arbok (due to Intimidate preventing the OHKO on Gengar 2). Lance wasn't that good, despite OHKOing Gyarados and killing Aerodactyl as it doesn't do enough to Dragonair and Dragonite. Champion is great because it 2HKOes Pidgeot, 2HKO Rhydon (while still outspeeding after Rock Tomb), OHKOing Gyarados and beating Venusaur. Overall, Gengar was extremly strong but between requiring several tms (Psyhic is highly required and it ned both Thunderbolt and Giga Drain), coming in mid-game and average performance against Blaine and Lance, B-tier is better for it.

Caterpie was surprisingly good. It could defeat Geodude from Brock. I guess if it was of a higher level, Sleep Powder could have made it better for Onix. Coumpound Eyes is an amazing ability and I had the feeling Sleep Powder barely missed. It couldn't do anything to Misty but Surge was alright with Sleep. Erika was a free matchup thanks to Psychic. Sabrina was good with Aerial Ace. Blaine couldn't get beaten outide of the 2 baby mons but Giovanni was particularly good. Lorelei was alright between Sleep and Giga Drain (it took down Dewgong and Cloyster). Bruno was amazing thanks to sleep and the right moves. Agatha was the lottery but Coumpound Eyes help in that regard. Lance was impossible to get through and it could hope to take down Alakazam, the Grass type and Rhydon against Champion. Overall, Caterpie fits well in C-tier, it had its struggling like Brock, Misty, Blaine and Lance and required several tms but was pretty good outside of that.

Flareon is quite good. It wins against Erika and Sabrina and is strong against Koga. The Elite 4 is alright as it can take down a Hitmon and does particularly well against Agatha. Champion is also pretty good as it can defeat Pidgey, the Grass-type and Alakazam. C-tier is totally fine for it.

Jolteon is just a regular fast Electric. It needs the Thunderbolt TM and is fast and just spams Thunderbolt it's really nothing special and C-tier wit other Electric-types is perfect for it.

Pinsir was actually good. It koed 2 mons against Erika, sweep Rival with Bulk Up, sweep Sabrina and wins against Giovanni. Blaine was surprisingly good thanks to Hypper Cutter and it took down 3 mons wile doing half to Arcanine with Dig lol. Lorelei was good as it could set up 2 Swords Dance, ko Dewgong, then set up a last Swords Dance and ko everything until Jynx comes and ko with Ice Punch. It can hope to take down Onix and Hitmonchan (or Lee) but then Machamp koes it. Lance isn't good but it can still beat Gyarados. Champion wasn't particularly good but at least it could take down Pidgeot or something else other than Fire-type or Rhydon. It's a quite situationnal mon that isn't easy to get but still it did some work and C-tier is fine for it.

Scyther was actually quite good too. Getting one is annoying but despite its barren movepool it does something. It can defeat Erika with Aerial Ace, Koga thanks to Swords Dance and wins against Sabrina with ease. Blaine wasn't that bad considering it could take down the 2 baby mons and put Rapidash to red. Against Giovanni, it can set up on Dugtrio to +6 and sweep wih Aerial Ace+ Steel Wing. It's quite good against Lorelei because it can win buy setting up on Cloyster and then OHKOing everything except for Slowbro (that uses Amnesia) and Lapras that can't OHKO it. It can only defear Hitmonlee against Bruno. Thanks to Agility + Swords Dance + Aerial Ace, Agatha is a free win. It cna et past Dragonair against Lance. Except for somewhat Exeggutor it can't really setup against champion. Scyther is rather strange because it sometimes needs to setup after the first mon but is still pretty consistent, winning against Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Agatha and setting up on the second mon against Giovanni and Lorelei and it would fit C-rank perfectly despite being hard to get. Another test woud be great.

Kangaskhan is a safari mon that is hard to get and requires several tms. Even then, it's not even good. Koga is hard due to Smokescreen and Muk using Acid Armor or Minimize as well as the bulky Weezing. Sabrina is a great match but then that's about it. It always contributes to the match but doesn't outright win and most of the time you'e better off using somethin available earlier. It's just like Tauros and Texas' posts about it describe it really well too.

Moltres, Magmar and Rapidash are good in D-rank. Moltres is better due to better stats and better performance against Giovanni and Agatha. Still, despite coming late, they can help. Against Lorelei, they can at least defeat Cloyster, Jynx and possibly Lapras if using Sunny Day. Rapidash can use a SunBeam set so that's alright. Against Bruno, you can just beat Hitmonlee. Agatha is pretty nice because you can take down up to 4 mons as they get 2HKOed by Flamethrower. Lance is impossible. Against champion, you can still hope to defeat Pidgey, possibly Alakazam and the grass-type. Obviously, these 3 mons are far from good, still they at least do something against the elite 4, especially Agatha and they fit more in D-tier.

Paras was really terrible, horrible to train with its speed and all the poison-type. Still, it can defeat Misty and Surge, has Spore and it learns Cut s that's at least something.

Rattata is fine in D I think. Unless it has a hgih level, Brock is a lose. Misty is just too hard to get past. It wins against Surge and Sabrina but that's it. Erika is hard due to paralysis, Koga has too many bulky mons, Blaine is impossible with Intimidate and Ratticate can only take down 2 mons against Giovanni (Dugtrio + a Nido). The Elite 4 outside of Agatha is terrible as it struggles to do something against Lorelei, Bruno and Lance is way too much. Its speed an dlearning Shadow Ball is cool for Agatha but even then it only beats Gengar, Haunter and Golbat if lucky enough. Champion is just way too much for Ratticate. Ratticate was fairly decent, having decent power but as just too frail and had so many losing matchup to justify a raise.

Rhyhorn was extremly bad. It was incredibly hard to train and evolves at a high level. Rhydon was alright but won't hae much uses. Still I don't think it deserves E-tier because at least Rhydon is strong against Agatha, can beat Lance's Aerodactyl and can do something against the champion (taking down Pidgey, opposing Rhydon, the fire type etc.)

Chansey was actually not as bad as I thought. It was able to toxic stall and win against Lorelei. Still it was obviously bad and between being extremly hard to get and no use outside of that, E-rank is perfect for it.

Porygon is probably the best E-tier (outside of Kabuto which needs to move ASAP). It has a great movepool and SHarpen + Agility + Recover is good. Despite this, it's just too hard to justify because it's hard to get and it barely wins any important match.

Ditto was the worst mon and there is really no reason to use it. E-tier is perfect for it.

Good analysis so far, although I am going to say Pikachu seems to me to be more in line with B/A then C. So far from my experiences (I am currently doing Rival Silph), it has done acceptable Erika, Surge, and Giovanni 1. Its only real bad MU was Brock. Misty and Koga were awkward but doable. I was at level 40, and did not want to grind further. It almost 2hkoed Muk, which if it could then the fight would be a great MU. I think another important Pikachu factor is just how good getting Thunderbolt from Leveling up is. Every other electric type except for Electabuzz (who gets it right before the elite 4 and has to work with Thunderpunch) has to get it from TM in this game. Zapdos is clearly strong as heck, but even it needs a Thunderbolt TM. Pikachu and Raichu get it from Level up and you should easily be level 26 by the time you get to Celadon. The fact that the only TMs it wanted I could buy at the Celadon Department Store instead of at the game corner should also be a slight boon. So long as it does not completely brick vs too much going forward, I will staunchly support B and perhaps even A if it keeps overpreforming my expectations, the only time it really has dissapointed me was Koga, and even then if I gave it a Calcium or leveled it up one more level it likely would have 2hkoed Muk. At the very least, I would argue that being decently strong, coming early, and getting Thunderbolt outside of the game corner should put it above the other Electrics.

Currently in Silph, got Aero to level 32 off of the grunts and just started the Silph Rival. Aero so far needed some babying but once it hit around level 17, it really was able to fend for itself against everything that was not Magnemite and Magneton. Rival Silph at 32 obviously is not gonna be fun outside of Pidgeot, but if it does well enough vs Sabrina onward, I can easily see the case for C or perhaps higher.

Edit: Decided to put my mid game logs in. Also, I want to make a point about how easy it is to get money. The only time I had the Amulet Coin (I like to be ready for post game in my playthroughs), was for the Mansion. Before I even went to the mansion, just by selling vitamins and nuggets I had more than enough for 60 ultra balls, 30 Max Repels, and the money to get Thunderbolt on Starmie. While T Bolt on Starmie has not been relevant yet, it is something I wanted to talk about just in case.

Koga

Raichu (40): You OHKO the Koffings and 2hko Weezing, but barely miss the 2hko on Muk and then it heals. Dig doesnt help much here either. That being said, the roll was super close and if I was one level higher, I know this could have been a good MU. Decent MU, but it could be better.

Charizard (40): Flamethrower no sold the entire fight. You 2hko Muk and Weezing, although Weezing is almost a OHKO. Great MU.

Hitmonlee (40): I tried to give it ideal conditions with a Pecha Berry, but it did not work. You will be toxiced by Koffing when you set up, you need 3 bulk ups for Koffing to be a OHKO, Muk is not an OHKO and is annoying. Bad MU

Starmie (40): Only Muk lives a Psychic, great MU.

getting Aero

Aero coming after the 5th gym at level five alone can be a bit rough. It also needs Rock Slide as a tutor move, which is a single use tutor. I surfed from Pallet to Cinnebar without a single battle, and saved in front of the scientist to get a not terrible aero. I ended up with an Adamant one after my second soft reset and got it with Rock Head, although I am skeptical of how useful Double Edge might be later.

Leveling up Aero took a little babying, but not much. Once it hit ~Level 17 or so, it started to hold its own fast. This came quicker than I thought it would tbh, since there is so much EXP to get in Silph Co. I only leveled it up off of Silph Trainers to boot. Got it to level 32 in time for the Rival fight.

Rival Silph

Aero (32): You 2hko Pidgeot and outspeed it, which is nice. Unfortunately Blastoise is a hard stop for you. At such a low level you barely 3hko, while Water Gun is a clean 2hko. That being said, everything else he has is a good MU. So outside of Blastoise stopping you cold, decent MU for something so underleveled.

Charizard (41): Flamethrower 2hkos Pidgeot and Growlithe, while OHKOing Exeggcute and Alakazam. Blastoise is tricky. On one hand, Water gun does come close to 2hkoing you (it is a roll) while Mega Kick only 3hkos. On the other hand, Rival is dumb as bricks and loves to double protect. I legit only lost once with solo Zard. Surprisingly, it is a good MU.

Hitmonlee (40): Set up two bulk ups on Pidgeot and sweep. You live two wing attacks while setting up since you outspeed everything. The only thing that did not die in one hit was Blastoise after a Growlithe intimidate. Great MU.

Starmie (41): I could easily have gotten T Bolt at this point for Blastoise but did not. Psychic is a 3hko on Toise while Bite 3hkos you, but you likely still have recover so Toise is easy. Ice Beam is close to a OHKO on Pidgeot, OHKOs egg, Surf OHKOs Growlithe and 2hkos Zam, good MU.

Raichu (41): Thunderbolt 2hkos egg, toise, and zam. OHKOs Pidgeot and Growlithe. Great MU.

Giovanni Silph

Aero (33): Bad MU. You beat Nidorino, but Rhyhorn at this point walls you and has rock blast.

Charizard (41): Flamethrower roasts Nidorino in one hit and 2hkos Rhyhorn. So long as it does not click rock blast, the rest of the fight is free. Nidoqueen and Kang are 2hkos and do not threaten you back much. Good MU.

Hitmonlee (40): This MU is legitimately free. You outspeed everything and Nidorino is set up fodder. So long as you do not get Poisoned by Nidorino, Crit by nidorino, or crit by Kangs fake out, you just set up six bulk ups and win.

Starmie (41): Psychic OHKOs Nidorino, Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn, 2hkos Kang and Queen. Amazing MU.

Raichu (41): Thunderbolt 2hkos Nidorino, Dig 3hkos Nidoqueen who does have Body Slam which is scary but for some reason she kind of attacks randomly so she isnt too bad so long as you don't get poison pointed. Brick Break 2hkos Rhyhorn and Thunderbolt 2hkos Kang. So long as you dodge Poison from Nidoqeeen, this MU is not that bad. You might get your sweep stopped by Kang, but from my experience it rarely uses Mega Punch. Good MU

Sabrina

Aero (36): Rock Slide OHKOs Kadabra and Venomoth. Use Ancient Power on Mr Mine first since it 2hkos and it wants to set up barrier and you do not want it in potion range. You 2hko Zam and outspeed. Great MU.

Charizard (41): Flamethrower OHKOS Kadabra and Moth, 2hkos Mime and Zam. Zam likes to go for Calm mind or Future sight and outspeeds you. You live a +1 Psychic at full HP, which you almost certainly will be at. Good MU

Hitmonlee (41): This MU is actually a good MU. You can easily get two bulk ups on Kadabra as it sets up Reflect and a Calm Mind. I did five attempts for this to test and it always did that. You would need a third to OHKO mime through reflect, but you do not want Kadabra to hit you. Manipulate Mime through not Returning to make sure it is not in Potion range. Venomoth is a OHKO with Rock tomb after two bulk ups. Zam Outspeeds but it only went for a psychic once. So, while in theory this would be a terrible MU, in practice Hitmonlee won 4/5 times. Good mu.

Starmie (41): Surf OHKOS Kadabra, 2hkos Mime and Zam. Psychic OHKOs moth. You outspeed everything. Amazing MU

Raichu (41): Thunderbot OHKOS Kadabra, 2hkos the rest. You live a Psychic easily from Zam even after a Venomoth Psybeam, Mime loves to try to set up. Great MU.

Current thoughts.

This thing is A Tier. Unless it bricks hard for every fight onward I am going to say it seems S Tier. Every fight it has managed to do well in save Misty, even fights it has no business doing well in like Silph Rival or Giovanni. If it does ok enough the last few fights, I will say this is A Tier. It just hits so hard with flamethrower its insane.

I already resonded before my edits how Raichu seems more in line with B Tier than A or C Tier. And truth be told, it seems that way so far. Koga in theory is a clean sweep if you 2hko muk, which you could easily do at one level higher (I wanted to save Rare Candies and not grind). Every fight so far it has managed to find a way even in fights like Giovanni where it objectively shouldnt be as good. This thing just does fine enough from my experience combined with all the positives I mentioned above that at the bare minimum it should stay B Tier.

Starmie has two problems that might keep it from being S Tier. It is TM hungry. You want Ice Beam and Psychic at the bare minimum, and Thunderbolt is nice to have as well (You could get thunder in the power plant if the amount of money is something you balk at, but unlike T Bolt you can't get another copy). That being said, as of now I am thinking that these are not as big issues. Kanto is littered with money, and I could have easily gotten Thunderbolt for the Silph Rival fight. I was not being entirely stingy with money before this, I bought 30 lemonades for healing before doing Silph. While money is not an unlimited resource, I think that wanting at least Ice Beam is fine, since Thunder can be used in its place for say Lorelei. Psychic is the only TM that really sticks out, but given how good Starmie is at using it, it is pretty worth it imo if you are not using something else that wants it like Jynx.

The other problem is the fact Starmie is in the Slow EXP group. Starmie noticably does require a good bit of EXP, and while I wouldn't say it is siphoning EXP too much, it is something that might hamper it when I get to the league.

Those two concerns in mind, if Starmie keeps up this preformance, it is a solid S Tier. While it does join after Pokemon Tower, you can easily get it up to speed very quickly and its preformance in every fight so far has been outright dominant. The only remotely scary fight is Rival Silph's Blastoise, who you have Recover for in the worst case scenario where you do not have T Bolt or Thunder. Everything else has been a clean sweep. Looking forward, the only fights I am concerned about are the Rival fights for it. Agatha looks very doable, Lance and Lorelei look good, and Bruno, Giovanni, and Blaine look free. If this thing keeps up, I will say it is S Tier.

How did this thing beat Sabrina? Legit, Bulk Up is such a game changer for Hitmonlee. I would say A/B Tier is very much in play right now. So long as Lee does not brick, I can see an easy A Tier. If it bricks hard against Agatha, the Champion, and to a lesser extent Lance, I might be considering B Tier.

The baby of the bunch, Aero is weird. You have to take a detour twice to get it. You need to do Diglett's Cave and go to Pewter, and then after getting Surf go straight to Cinnabar to revive it at Level 5. It needs Rock Slide as a tutor, and I forsee it wanting Double Edge and Earthquake. On Paper, this thing should be D Tier.

But... it isn't so far. Yes, Giovanni was trash. But doing so well vs Silph Rival save for an unwinnable Blastoise fight and sweeping Sabrina while still being underleveled is insane. This thing hits hard and fast. Silph is a lovely bundle of EXP to get it in line with the rest of the team after a few fights of babying it. So long as the rest of the game is not outright horrible, I could easily see Aerodactyl getting C Tier. If it is dominant as heck, I could consider B Tier, but I doubt it will be that good. It would need to do abusrdly well in every fight left for it to get a nod to B tier from me.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I was going to go through the list and comment on all placings but then I realized I agree with most of them and that would be a waste of time so I'll leave comments on just a few instead

Nidoking: personally I think could be B because I don't rate its end game abilities at all but that would require a shift in philosophy for the list so its fine in A

Staryu: highest opportunity cost of anything this high on the list, justified by end game abilities comparable only to Jynx, the best mon in the game

Electabuzz: could be C if Jolteon is, I didn't see a particularly meaningful difference between the two when I used Buzz. Fast electric with mediocre coverage (the highly contested Psychic the only meaningful one) and okay bulk, they more or less do the same thing.

Geodude (Trade): I'd like someone to run Golem and retest it. Graveler was hot dogshit and I'm not yet sure that Golem has such a difference in performance as to rate B over something like C.

Magnemite and Pikachu: Could also be C, particularly if Buzz moves. I don't feel any of the Electrics have particularly good long-term games, just high spots here and there and collectively they rate out more as average in my estimation, would be fine seeing them all in C. Magnemite's defensive utility is nice but very limited due to its poor HP stat, which deficit shows clearly in the end game when the level difference renders the resistances moot. Ultimately not a lot to differentiate any of these four from even Voltorb.

Dratini: I'm not sure this should be C. Dragonite is awesome but I don't ever actually have runs where I get to Dragonite before I beat the E4 unless I dump in some Rare Candies at the end game. Without fail my team ends up around level 52-53 by the time I beat the rival so Dragonair requires that additional investment in order to be a Dragonite only for the very end of the game. High investment in terms of acquisition and TM consumption as well. Performance only adequate. It's *fine* in C but I'm note sure its downsides are being fully reflected in its ranking.

Graveler: get this out of C asap, E tier based on my run, very bottom of the barrel if placed in D.

Machoke: I'd also like to see this tested for verification, I've never been impressed by its performance at any time, bulk falls short for Bulk Up set ups and power is only OK for something with so limited coverage. Could be D.

Pinsir: see Machoke but less concern here, just want more data

Aerodactyl: a beast. I'll continue to advocate for C given how well it performs when using the right set up for acquisition and training catch up.

Ekans: really bad, want to see a couple tests for Arbok to validate performance across the middle and late game, I have skepticism given movepool issues

Moltres: I'd like to see a couple of tests here to validate, despite the late arrival I can see it being plausible that Flamethrower and level alone could justify C. I can see it comfortably handling half of Giovanni/Lorelei's/Bruno/Agatha/Champions teams, with Lance being the only pitfall. Definitely worse than the other birds but I can see it being roughly average on the whole.

Seel: Should be C, no meaningful difference from Goldeen aside from availability, counteracted by stab Ice Beam

Vulpix: would like to see validation here, whenever I've used it I felt it was on the bottom end of my personal C range

Kabuto: warrants testing for D vs E

Onix: very very very bad BUT when I used it was able to justify an argument for maybe the bottom of D, could be worth more looks




Everything else looks A-OK and ready to ship

 

[Zebes]

I'll comment each mon with logs assuming I have them if needed :

Nidoking is fine in A-tier, although I wouldn't mind B-tier. The early game is great and the E4 is still alright and you can always use some moves like Shadow Ball for Agatha.

Starmie is more of a matter of ranking philosophy but you can get it before Rocket Hideout and teach it Psychic right off the bat and win any major fight. It doesn't really need log I feel because it just OHKOes or 2HKOes everything outside of like Alakazam. All the gyms were clear wins from Erika to Giovanni, as only the strongest mon (like Vileplume or Muk) wasn't 2HKOed by Surf or Psychic and couldn't OHKO back. The Elite 4 was also amazing as Starmie defeats each member, with only the champion's Alakazam, being able to do much. It's a clear S-tier performance, from the elevel of Jynx and I feel that being TM hungry and slow level rate should just drop it from one rank.

I agree with Electabuzz, who you posted logs of. It comes too late and isn't too useful outside of Lorelei and tbh all Electric except for Zapdos are about as good. I still want to see MX42's logs for Raichu but other electric-types should be C-tier. Magneton comes late just like Electabuzz and hard loses to Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno and requires Thunderbolt. Even then, the E4 wasn't that good as Lorelei and Agatha weren't even clear wins. Going to detail it here :

Magneton

Lorelei : Lapras is only 2HKOed and as is Dewgong. Cloyster is OHKOed and Slowbro is a positive range. Jynx is only 3HKOed by Thunderbolt. The problem is that Magneton gets ko'ed by Surf from Lapras and 2 Ice Punch from Jynx so it's far from a win most of the time (not to mention possible Hail from Dewgong and then Protect from Cloyster to chip it even more)

Agatha : Golbat is OHKOed and the rest is 2HKOed (tho Gengar 2 needs to use Metal Sound + Thunderbolt). Once again the problem is that Magneton is prone to getting overwhelmed and haxxed. I noticed that 2 Shadow Punch from first Gengar + Screech + Iron Tail from Arbok + 2 Shadow Ball from last Gengar kills. Adding to that, Golbat can confuse and Haunter/Gengar can easily put to sleep and the matchup isn't that good.

Lance : Only beats reliably Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Dragonite 3HKOes with Outrage and it requires 3 hits to ko it with 2 Metal Sound and Thunderbolt. Dragonair are going to paralyse and will heal if Magneton does too much damages.

Magneton is still the best Electric-type for the Elite 4 but its middling bulk prevent it from doing too much sadly.

I totally agree with Golem, which while better than Graveler is still pretty bad. It's the same bad matchup against Misty, Erika, Blaine (due to double intimidate) and Lorelei. Golem is still better mostly due to a better Koga, somewhat Bruno and Agatha. Koffing are ko'ed with 5 hits from Rock Blast, Weezing with 10 hits and Muk needs Magnitude 8 for the OHKO. Golem can take a hit from a fighting-type outside Machamp and OHKO it with Explosion. Golem can take a Screech+Iron Tail from Arbok and 2HKO it with Earthquake. It's still not good and B-tier is too high for it but I feel C-tier looks good for it. Graveler is worse and has absolutely no place in C-tier but D-tier seems fair to it, it can at least beat Surge and outside of the very bad matchup with water or grass moves, it should still beat one to two mons.

Dratini is totally fine in C I think. Getting Dragonite was alright because as you said the league is at around level 52-53 and it will only require 2-3 more levels which is alright. The babying wasn't that bad thanks to Dragon rage and solid movepool and while it needs TMs, it had a strong Elite 4 performance imo. Going to detail that here :

Dragonite

Lorelei : Dewgong never seems to attack and gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Cloyster is OHKOed by Thunderbolt. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt and 2HKOes with Tunderbolt. Dragonite beats 3 mons here most of the time and can dent Lapras (3HKOed and OHKOes back)

Bruno : Clean sweep. Surf OHKOes Onix and Wing Attack OHKOes Hitmon and 2HKOes Machamp. Dragonite outspeeds Onix and Hitmonchan so it doesn't take hits from them. Rock Tomb from Machamp doesn't do a lot and you 2HKO it through Bulk up and can even then take a hit from Hitmonlee and Onix.

Agatha : haxy as usual but everything gets 2HKOed and Dragonite has enormous bulk so it should beat at least Gengar 1, Golbat, Haunter and Gengar 2 under the right cicustances. It's better to avoid Arbok due to Intimidate and Screech.

Lance : Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados and Dragon Claw OHKOes Dragonair. Opposite Dragonite is outsped and 2HKOed while Outrage doesn't OHKO back. Great outside of Aerodactyl.

Champion : Dragonite beats Venusaur, Pidgeot, Gyarados and Rhydon easily. It outspeeds Gyarados and 2HKOes with Thunderbolt. Venusaur does nothing and gets 2HKOed like Pidgeot. Rhydon is OHKOed by Surf. Alakazam 2HKOes so it's better to avoid it. Arcanine can sometimes be beaten according to the situation but as it only getd 3HKOed by Surf, it's not guaranteed.

Machoke I totally agree with D-tier, it's way worse than Machamp honestly. Sadly, I don't have proprer logs but from my barren notes, unlike Machamp, it loses to Erika as it struggles to get past even Victreebel as it lacks bulk. Koga is worse due to lack of power and as is Blaine. Machoke will only beat Rhyhorns and Dugtrio vs Giovanni. It's possible to setup against Cloyster against Lorelei but due to lack of power and being outsped unlike Primeape, it's not reliable. Setting up against Bruno is impossible due to lack of bulk, even Onix is going to hurt. Against Lance, it only beats a Dragonair at most and even beating Rhydon is an hard task against Champion. It's a shame I don't have logs and I might retry it later but from my memories, Machoke was really that bad.

I totally get your doubts behind Pinsir but it was overall pretty good. Hypercutter is a great ability and helped a lot mostly against Blaine. Here are my quick notes (I used it in the same run as Machoke) about it :

Pinsir

Erika : beats Victreebel and Tangela but can't get through Vileplume.

Lavender Rival : easy win thanks to hypper cutter

Koga : Nop

Silph Co Rival : Set up 2 Bulk Up and OHKO everything.

Sabrina : a win apparently

Blaine : Outspeed everything. Dig OHKOes Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash. Arcanine is 2HKOed by it and OHKOes back with Fire Blast.

Giovanni : Wins as long as Rock Blast doesn't get too much hits

Rival : Beats Pidgey, Gyarados, Growlithe and Rhyhorn.

Lorelei : Swords Dance twice on Lorelei ko Dewgong with Brick Break and then set up another Swords Dance on Cloyster, OHKO it with Brick Break and OHKOes Slowbro with Strength. Lapras is OHKOed by Brick Break. Jynx comes last and koes with Ice Punch. Geat as it beats 4 mons.

Bruno : beats an Onix and hitmon

Agatha : Only beats Arbok

Lance : Beat Gyarados.

Champion : Only beats Gyarados.

Moltres is fine in D-tier imo. It comes late and while powerful, the Elite 4 isn't that good. It beats easily Sabrina and Giovanni which is great but the Elite 4 is mostly average tbh. It beats Lapras, Cloyster and Jynx from Lorelei thanks to Sunny Day which is great. But, then Bruno is bad and Moltres only wins against Hitmonlee as the rest has Rock Tomb anyway. Agatha isn't too good because she's going to hax, only getting 2HKOed and Golbat surprisingly outspeeds Moltres. Lance is obviously bad and against rival, it should beat Pidgey, Alakazam and Venusaur/Exeggutor. Really, while Moltres was quite good for the Elite 4, it wasn't amazing and due to coming late, D-tier feels alright for it (and Magmar and Rapidash are similar in that regard)

I 100% agree with Seel, which is honestly like other water-types. With Thick fat, it just has the same matchup against Blaine. The rest is mostly the same, even though Ice STAB is great for Lance and thanks to it and solid bulk, Dewgong can 1v1 Dragonite against Lance. Really, Seel is a feneric water-types and C-tier with other water-types is fine for it.

Vulpix is honestly bad. You really need to catch it at a lower level, otherwise it won't have Ember and it's really weak, even after evolving. I remember failing to OHKO Koffing from Koga with Flamethrower for instance. I just don't remember any good matchup except for like Erika (which still wasn't a guaranteed win) and somewhat Agatha.

Kabuto is good actually and D-tier would be perfect for it. You obviously need the same back track as Omanyte and Aerodactyl but it's worth using. It has several good matchup and is nearly as good as Omanyte imo. Here are my notes about it :

Kabuto

Blaine : OHKO everything with rain boosted surf but Arcanine which is 2HKOed and doesn't do much back.
Silph co Rival : OHKOes Pidgey, Alakazam (barring Reflect), Growlithe and 3HKOes Blastoise. You can't defeat Exeggcute but seeing as how Blastoise only uses Water Gun, you beat 4 mons.
Sabrina : RNG reliant but should be a win. Only Kadabra and Alakazam outspeeds. Everything but Alakazam is OHKOed by Rock Slide but you can always 2HKO and outspeed Alakazam thanks to Mud Shot + Rock Slide.
Giovanni : OHKO Rhyhorn. Set up Rain Dance on Dugtrio as it fails to OHKO and OHKO everything i cluding Nidoqueen with Surf. Clear win.
Rival : OHKO Pidgey, Rhyhorn and Growlithe. Avoid Exeggutor and Blastoise. 2HKO Alakazam with Mud Shot + Rock Slide.
Lorelei : Rock Slide 2HKOes Lapras, Cloyster and Dewgong and OHKOes Jynx. It's AI reliant but Kabutops can possibly defeats these 4 or at least 3 of them.
Bruno : just outspeed and OHKO Onix
Agatha : OHKOes Haunter with Rock Slide and 2HKOes gengar and Golbat with it. Luck reliant as usual but Kabutops can defeat 3 mons most of the time.
Lance : Gyarados is 2HKOed by Rock Slide but you can't beat more. Otherwise, you can 1v1 Aerodactyl.
Champion : OHKOes Rhydon with Surf. Beats Arcanine 1v1 3HKOing with Surf but you can't get past it and Pidgey

Really, I haven't seen talks about Kabuto but it's fun to use and I'd advice everyone to use it as it has a fairly good performance.

Onix is honestly not worth using and I'd rather keep in E-tier. Except if you face Surge late, it has really no winning matchup and is incredibly weak. It's horrible to train and has absolutely no good important game. It was just an even worse Graveler honestly, being way weaker. Erika is a loss, Koga is even worse than Graveler due to how weak Onix is (Onix even struggles to get past Koffing + Muk....), Sabrina is horrible as Onix eevn struggles to get past Mr.Mime, against Blaine it only beats Growlithe and that's it. Against Giovanni, Onix will only claim one kill at best. You just beat Pidgey and either Growlithe or Rhyhorn against rival. Lorelei is obviously impossible as is Bruno outside of the first Onix (because even the second one beats Onix). Agatha is going to hax and Onix can only beat either Golbat or Arbok at most. Against Lance, it only beats Aerodactyl and it even struggles to get past Pidgey against champion. Really, Onix is that bad and should be kept in E-tier, there is really no reason to use it and Colteor's details well how bad it is.

Ekans is fine in D-tier imo. It's obviously not the best thing but had some alright matchups like Misty, Surge and Erika and could do someting most of the time.

I might try a run with Ekans, Golem, Machoke, Pinsir, Moltres and Vulpix to provide proper logs but I don't think I'll change mind on them.

 

[TCTphantom]

I actually had my logs ready but did not want to double post again haha. Will likely post sometime this week. That being said, one little spoiler: my position on Starmie has hardened. Imo, it’s performance is so dominant and the investment isn’t that bad since it really only requires psychic (blizzard and thunder are options over game corner tms). I know that some people might worry that it is resource dependent, but so is Jynx to a certain extent. I’d say with how dominant it was, I will champion it for S Rank.

 

[DHR-107]

I understand Kurona hasn't been on for some weeks, but come on dude, let's do this the right way rather than trying a coup on getting the thread done.

I've PM'd Kurona and I'd like to give him a couple of days to respond. After that, you're more than welcome to take over the thread. Keep up the good work guys.

I haven't had a reply from Kurona and he hasn't been online since I last checked.

So this thread is up for someone to come in and tidy up as it were as I believe its relatively close to being sorted?

 

[Zebes]

Really looking forwards to your logs as it was a nice read !

I have to disagree on Starmie tho, even if I totally get the nomination. Comparing it to Jynx, Starmie needs way more investment imo. Jynx strictly only necessarly needs Psychic TMs as it learns Ice Punch naturally (Ice Beam is still better obviously) while Starmie needs it (otherwise Agatha is a loss) and BOTH Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to have the same performance as Jynx. The slow growth rate as opposed to boosted exp is pretty big too as Starmie takes away a lot of experience from the team. While Blizzard should work alright as its accuracy is alright and it's only needed for Dragonairs, Dragonite and Exeggutor, Thunder looks pretty bad as you need to hit a lot of time against Lorelei. These flaws make Starmie A-tier instead of S as while it easily walks through the game, only needing healing for Lorelei and Champion, it requires an important investment.

Here is the run I did, level wise it was a bit hard to keep to standard because I got 3 mons (Machop, Vulpix and Pinsir) at round the same time.

Golem

Rival (18) : Kinda luck reliant as Pidgeotto likes to use Sand Attack. Anyway, Rock Throw 2HKOes it and Charmander while Magnitude should 2HKO Rattata. Abra gets 2HKOed by Tackle. It's AI reliant due to Sand Attack and CHarmander using Metal Claw but Geodude should etake at least 3 mons so it's alright.

Misty (22) : lol

Rival (25) : OHKOes everything with the right move (Raticate needs at least Magnitude 7). It's a clear win assuming the rival has CHrmander as the starter.

Surge (25) : Obvious win with Magnitude.

Giovani (28) : Magnitude 7 3HKOes Kangaskhan and 2HKOes the rock-types.

Rival (29) : Curlout OHKOes everything and nothing is too threatening.

Erika (31) : Nop.

Koga (36) : Curlout 2HKOes Koffing and OHKOes the rest assuming it hits. The problem is that Koffing is going to use Smokescreen so hitting is going to be hard. Otherwise, Magnitude 8 OHKOes Muk.

Blaine (43) : OHKOes Grwlithe, flee Arcanine, OHKO Ponyta and Rapidash. Then Arcanine is going to ko with Fire Blast. Alright matchup as it should beat 3 mons.

Silph Co Rival (44) : Beats Pidgey, 2HKOing with Curlout. Assuming no Feather Dance nor miss, Golem should sweep the team. Otherwise, Alakazam and Growlithe get OHKOed by Earthquake and Curlout OHKOes Charizard.

Giovanni (44) : Magnitude 7 2HKOes Kangaskhan. The rest can't really hit you (even Double Kick from Nidoqueen does nearly nothing) so that should be a win.

Sabrina (45) : Everything outspeeds but Earthquake OHKOes everything. The problem is that everything outspeeds and Golem isn't able to take Future Sight from Kadabra, Psybeam from Mr.Mime and Venomoth and Psychic from Alakazam. Alright matchup as it should beat 3 mons.

Giovanni (45) : Outspeed and OHKO both Rhyhorn with Earthquake. Golem can actually take an Earthquake from Dugtrio and one from Nidoqueen so it should beat both as well as 2 Rhyhorn.

Rival (46) : Beats Pidgey, Charizard and Rhyhorn.

Lorelei (51) : Nop.

Bruno (51) : Beats the first Onix, OHKOing with Earthquake, while not getting 2HKOed. Alternatively, it can take a hit from an Hitmon and use Self Destruct to ko.

Agatha (51) : Golbat will prove to be difficult between Confuse Ray and Bite. Golem takes 2 Iron Tail from Arbok and 2HKOes with Earthquake. Only beats either Arbok or sometimes Golbat

Lance (51) : Beats only Gyarados and Aerodactyl thanks to Curlout (Aero comes after Gyarados). Dragonair do too much with Outrage and Golem can only beat one 1v1.

Champion (51) : Beats either Pidgey or Charizard, 2HKOing with Curlout or Rollout respectively, while barely taking 2 Flamethrower.

Ekans

Nugget Bridge Rival : can't fight here as it just got caught and lacks experience.

Misty (22) : 2HKOes Starmie with Secret Power and 3HKOes Starmie with Bite. Using Glare against Starmie, it should win tho Water Pulse from both means a loss.

Rival (25) : 2HKOes Pidgeotto and Raticate with Secret Power. Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra. Charmeleon is a range for the 2HKO. Easy win as it easily takes hits.

Surge (25) : Everything is outsped. Voltorb and Pikachu are OHKOed while Raichu is 2HKOed by Secret Power + Dig. Clear win.

Giovanni (28) : 2HKOes Onix and Rhyhorn after Screech with Dig. 3HKOes Kangaskhan with Secret Power after a Screech. AI reliant as if Kangaskhan hits Mega Punch twice, it should be a loss.

Rival (29) : 2HKOes Pidgeotto with Secret Power. 2HKOes Exeggcute wth Bite. Dig + Secret Power 2HKOes Charmander.

Erika (31/32) : Screech + Secret Power 2HKOes everything. Shed Skin would probably help here but every mon barely damages Arbok who has no troubles winning here.

Koga (36) : Screech + Return OHKOes Koffing. Screech + Hyper Beam OHKOes Muk. The problem here is really the accuracy as Screech already misses enough by itself, added to Smokescreen, Arbok will sadly not be able to do much here.

Blaine (42) : Sceech + Return OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and then will fall to the third Fire Blast from Rapidash. Alternatively, Screech + Hyper Beam kills Rapidash. Arcanine is outsped but too bulky with Intimidate.

Rival (43) : Screech + Hyper Beam koes everything. It's better to avoid Charizard and Exeggcute as the former does a lot and the latter can para. It should confortably beats the rest as Alakazam goes for Future Sight.

Giovanni (43) : Return 2HKOes Nidorino and Giga Drain OHKOes Rhyhorn. Screech + 2 Return is enough for Kangaskhan and Nidoking. Clean win as except for Kanga, most things can't really hit.

Sabrina (44) : Only Alakazma outspeeds. Kadabra is OHKOed by Return. Mr.Mime and Venomoth are 2HKOed by Return. Alakazam outspeeds and sometimes goes for Psychic which koes but it doesn't always use it and Hyper Beam is an OHKO.

Giovanni (44) : OHKOes both Rhyhorn with Giga Drain and Dugtrio with Return. Screech+Hyper eam koes Nidoqueen while Arbok can take an Earthquake.

Rival (44) : OHKOes Rhyhorn with Giga Drain. Pidgeot and Exeggcute are beaten by Screech + Hyper Beam (assuming no Feather Dance).

Lorelei (51) : Screech + 2 Return koes Dewgong. You can heal using 2 Giga Drain while 2HKOing Cloyster. If Slowbro goes for Amnesia, it's beatable with Screech + Return + Hyper Beam.

Bruno (51) : Giga Drain OHKOes Onixes. Screech + Hyper Beam can kill an hitmon afterwards. Can't beat more as Arbok isn't bulky enough to take multiples hits.

Agatha (51) : Nop.

Lance (51) : Just beats a Dragonair with Screech + Hyper Beam.

Champion (51) : Only beats Exeggutor, using 2 Screech and 2 Return, the rest including Pidgey is too threatening.

Machoke

Giovanni (28) : Brick Break 2HKOes everything (sadly Kangaskhan can actually take a Revenge). You just have to be wary of Kangaskhan hitting 2 Mega Punch as it koes after a Leer but due to bad AI, it rarely happens.

Rival (29) : Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeotto. Avoid Exeggcute. Revenge OHKOes Kadabra. Charmeleon is 2HKOed by Brick Break. It can't hop to beat both Charmeleon and Kadabra as it doesn't have the bulk to take hits.

Erika (31) : Victreebel 3HKOes with Giga Drain and Machoke only 3HKOes. It can hope to beat Victreebel if it uses Stun Spore first but that doesn't always happen and it's going to fall to Tangela afterwards anyway.

Koga (36) : Even the first Koffing is a nightmare as Strength 3HKOes and it can use Smokescreen and nearly OHKOes with Self-Destruct....

Blaine (43) : Only beats Growlithe and then falls to Ponyta. It doesn't have the bulk to take 3 Fire Blast and only 2HKOes Ponyta.

Rival (45) : Avoid Pidgey as it 3HKOes and has Feather Dance. It can beat Charizard 1v1, OHKOing with Rock Slide, while taking a Flamethrower and 2HKOes Alakazam with Strength.

Giovanni (45) : Set up 2 Bulk Up on Nidorino. OHKO it with Strength, OHKO Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn with Brick Break and 2HKO Nidoqueen with Strength.

Sabrina (45) : OHKOes Kadabra with Stength and Venomoth with Rock Slide. 2HKOes the rest. The problem is that Machoke won't last long as Alakazam OHKOes and Mr. Mime 2HKOes.

Giovanni (45) : Set up 3 Bulk Up on Rhyhorn as it uses Scary Face and Earthquake. Then, Machoke will OHKO everything but Nidoqueen that gets 2HKOed. Clear win an only good matchup.

Lorelei (51) : Only wins against Dewgong and Cloyster, being 2HKOed by Brick Break + Cross Chop and 2 Cross Chop respectively. You can try to set up on Cloyster but you won't beat more than it and potentially Slowbro as the rest outspeeds and do more than a half.

Bruno (51) : Only beats the 2 Onix as they get 2HKOed by Cross Chop (or +1 Brick Break). You can't actually setup because 2 Earthquake will do like 45% even if Machoke uses Bulk Up, the second Onix will weaken and Hitmonchan will ko.

Agatha (51) : lol.

Lance (51) : Only beats a Dragonair, 2HKOing with Brick Break + Cross Chop, taking 2 Outrage.

Champion (51) : 2HKOes Rhydon with Cross Chop and that's about it.

Pinsir

Giovanni (25) : 2HKOes the rocks with Brick Break. Kangaskhan is 2HKOed by Revenge + Brick Break. Should win despite the lower level barring Leer + 2 Mega Punch but that never happens.

Rival (28) : 2HKOes Pidgeotto and Charmeleon with Brick Break. 2HKOes Gyarados with Rock Tomb. Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra with Vice Grip. Avoid Exeggutor due to Stun Spore.

Erika (31) : 3HKOes Victreebel and Vileplume and 2HKOes Tangela with Vice Grip.Pinsir has the bulk to take all hits and can pull a win assuming no more than one para.

Koga (36) : 2HKOes Koffing and 3HKOes Muk with Strength (didn't try Weezing but I can't see Pinsir defeating it). It sadly won't be able to do much and will often just beats the 2 Koffing due to Smokescreen, Minimize and Acid Armor.

Blaine (43) : Set up one Bulk Up on Growlithe, living a Fire Blast and then proceed to OHKO Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash with Dig, as they are outsped. Then, use Strength on Arcanine, doing half (no point in using Dig as it puts it in red and is going to heal next turn).

Rival (45) : Set up 2 Bulk Up on Pidgeot. OHKO it with Strength, Charizard with Rock Tomb and the rest with Strength as Pinsir outspeeds everything.

Giovanni (45) : Set up Bulk Up on Nidorino and OHKO it with Strength. Brick Break OHKOes Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn while Strength 2HKOes Nidoqueen.

Sabrina (45) : Return OHKOes everything but Venomoth, that is 2HKOed. Pinsir is only outsped by Alakazam and has no troubles winning here as it easily takes Psychic from Alakazam and lives Psybeam from Venomoth + Psychic from Alakazam.

Giovanni (46) : Set up 3 Bulk Up on Rhyhorn as it uses Scary Face 3 times. Everything will outspeed from there but will barely damage and Pinsir will be able to OHKO everything with Return/Brick Break.

Rival (46) : Pidgey actually hurts so avoid it and Charizard outspeeds. Pinsir should beat Gyarados, Alakazam and Rhyhorn here after setting up on the former.

Lorelei (51) : Set up Swords Dance on Dewgong then OHKO it with Brick Break. Then use 2 Swords Dance against Cloyster and OHKO the whole team with Brick Break, except for Slowbro that is OHKOed by Return. Clear win as Jynx is outsped.

Bruno (51/52) : Set up Swords Dance on Onix and outspeed even after Rock Tomb. OHKO it with Earthquake. Then Hitmonchancomes and goes for Counter so you can set up Swords Dance on it and OHKO with Earthquake afterwards, then OHKO Machamp, Hitmonlee and Onix while confortably taking hits from Hitmonlee and Onix. A bit weird as it's AI reliant but I tried it numerous times and Hitmonchan awlays used Counter.

Agatha (52) : Nop.

Lance (52) : Beats either Gyarados or Dragonite, 2HKOing with Return after Swords Dance and that's it.

Champion (52) : You can set up 2 Swords Dance on Gyarados, outspeeding and taking 2 hits and OHKO it with Return and then Rhydon comes and you OHKO it with Earthquake.

Vulpix

Giovanni (25) : Nop.

Rival (29) : 2HKOes Pidgeotto with Flamethrower. Beats Gyarados with Will-o-Wisp + Flamethrower. Charmeleon can't really hit and gets beaten by Flamethrower. OHKOes Exeggcute. Clear win here.

Erika (31) : OHKOes everything with Flamethrower.

Koga (36) : OHKOes Koffing, 3HKO Weezing and Muk. Weezing can be defeated by Flamethrower + Will-o-Wisp + Flamethrower but needs to hit which isn't guaranteed due to Smokescreen. Muk is often too much with Minimize and Sludge doing a lot. Ninetales won't be able to pull a win as even beating one of the two can be tricky.


Blaine (43) : 2HKOes Growlithe, 3HKOes Ponyta (use Flamethrower + Ember + Flamethrower to avoid Hyper Potion). It won't beat more as Rapidash does a lot with Bounce and Stomp (and can potentially paralyse) and Arcanine takes nothing.

Rival (45) : 2HKOes Pidgeot with Flamethrower. Muscle through Gyarados with Will-o-Wisp and Flamethrower. Charizard is 4HKOed by Flamethrower. It OHKOes Exeggcute ans 2HKOes Alakazam. The problem is that Ninetales is too frail and won't be able to beat both Charizard and Gyarados.

Giovanni (45) : Nidorino is a range for the OHKO. Rhyhorn and Kangaskhan are 2HKOed while Nidoqueen gets 3HKOed. It's really AI reliant as Scary Face from Rhyhorn means Kangaskhan and Nidoqueen outspeed while Rock Blast does like 15-20% per hit and Mega Punch hurts. Nidoqueen can also paralyse with Body Slam and do great damages.

Sabrina (45) : OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth. Mr.mime and Alakazam are 2HKOed and the latter outspeeds. Ninetales should still win as it takes Psybeam and 2 Psychic from Alakazam (it barely takes it so with 1 or 2 less levels it should result in a loss).

Giovanni (46) : Everything is outsped and Ninetales 2HKOes everything but Dugtrio that gets OHKOed. Ninetales can claim 2 kills here, Rhyhorn + Dugtrio as it takes an Earthquake from the former and outspeeds and OHKOes the latter or Dugtrio + NIdoqueen, taking an Earthquake from the latter.

Rival (46) : 2HKOes Pidgeot and OHKOes Exeggcute and aoid the rest as even though you can burn Rhyhorn, Ninetales won't be able to take hits from it and Pidgeot.

Lorelei (51) : Beats Cloyster and Jynx, 2HKOing both with Flamethrower.

Bruno (51) : Beats an Hitmon, using Will-o-Wisp and 2 Flamethrower while barely taking their hits.

Agatha (51) : The first Gengar is a range for the 2HKO and it outspeeds so it's going to be tricky. Haunter is 2HKOed by Flamethrower and the rest is a 3HKO. Ninetales won't do more than beating a thing here at best here as even Air Cutter from Golbat does a lot.

Lance (51) : Nop.

Champion (51) : Pidgey is killed by Will-o-Wisp and 2 Flalmethrower but is going to switch out anyway. Exeggutor can be beaten by Flamethrower but does half with Egg Bomb so Ninetales is just going to beat one thing here.

Moltres

Rival (50) : OHKOes everything but Charizard and Gyarados that gets 2HKOed by Flamethrower while taking their hits confortably.

Giovanni (50) : OHKOes Nidorino and Rhyhorn with Flamethrower. 2HKOes Kangaskhan and Nidoqueen. Easy win

Sabrina (50/51) : OHKOes everything with Flamethrower. Only Alakazam outspeeds and it doesn't do half with Psyhic. Clean win.

Giovanni (51) : OHKOes first Rhyhorn, Nidoking and Dugtrio with Flamethrower. The second Rhyhorn is 2HKOed and Rock Blast does quite a lot and Nidoqueen too. Alright performance but it will struggle to beat the whole team due to Rhyhorn 2.

Rival (51/52) : 2HKOes Pidgeot with Flamethrower. 3HKOes Charizard with Fly. OHKOes Exeggcute with Flamethrower.2HKOes Alakazam with Flamethrower. Avoid the rest as Rhyhorn is 2HKOed and does a lot with Rock Blast so avoid it and Gyarados overwhelms with Rain Dance and Hydro Pump.

Lorelei (52) : OHKOes Cloyster and Jynx with Flamethrower. Flamethrower + Sunny Day + Flamethrower koes Lapras. Slowbro uses Amnesia so you can't beat it.

Bruno (52) : Only beats Hitmonlee. Everything else has Rock Tomb and Fly only 2HKOes Hitmonchan.

Agatha (52/53) : Flamethrower 2HKOes everything and Fire Blast OHKOes Haunter. You can try to use Agility and beat Gengar 1, Golbat, Arbok and Haunter and then falls to Gengar 2. The problem is that you have to hit twice against first Gengar that mostly goes for Double Team, it can use Toxic, ruining the strategy and Golbat has Confuse Ray.

Lance (53) : Nop, will only beat a Dragonair at most.

Champion (53) : 2HKOes Pidgeot with Flamethrower and OHKOes Exeggutor. Alakazam outspeeds and 2HKOes with Psychic and the rest is too threatening.

Golem

This looks C-tier, as while it's definitely better than Graveler, it's still not exactly good. Golem is amazing for beating Surge and early rival but it becomes way worse afterwards. Koga is heavily luck reliant and it can't reliably beat Sabrina or Blaine. The Elite 4 and champion were especially bad as Golem could only beat one or thing generally. I still feel it's a major upgrade from Graveler because it's way better for Blaine, taking down 3 mons and can actually beat 4 mons from Giovanni as well as not getting 2HKOed by Iron Tail from Agatha's Arbok or Flamethrower from Champion's Charizard. There is no way Golem is B-tier tho, it hardly loses to Misty, Erika doing nothing and the E4 was especially bad.

Arbok

D-tier is good for it. It's pretty good for the early game, doing well against Misty, Surge and Erika while doing something with Screech + Normal attack afterwards. It becomes way worse after Blaine but still has some uses and can take down up to 3 mons against Lorelei and Bruno. I feel that good mid-game performance and its ability to do something with Screech + Return/Hyper Beam is more than enough to prevent it from being in the lower tier tbh. It's way better than things in E-tier (except for Kabuto which really needs to move up) and has the same potential as things like Beedrill. I have to mention that it misses a lot between Screech and Hyper Beam and requires several contested TMs but considering its performance, D-rank is perfect for it.

Machoke

Yeah this is as bad as I remembered and this deserves D tier. This was probably the worst mon of the run honestly as except for like Giovanni, it couldn't pull a win (and even then Giovanni is never difficult). It can never set up due to its speed and poor bulk and its offensive capacities are average at best. Really, not much to say, just read the logs, Machoke loses all the time in important battles and there is no way this can be C-tier (it's closer to E-tier). I wouldn't call it E-tier because it wins against Giovanni and can at least kill a mon most of the time but this is just bad and you're way better off using actual good fighting-types like Primeape or Machamp.

Pinsir

This should be fine in C-tier. Pinsir had strong performances against Erika, Sabrina and Blaine and swept Lorelei and Bruno (thanks to bad AI). Even in other battles, it still had its uses and could hope to defeat at least one thing. Performance wise, it seems closer to B-tier but you can't overlook how annoying to get it is (it nearly cost all my money whe I arrived at Celadon City), it's in the slo groth rate group and needs a few contested TMs (Return and Earthquake). Still, I would advice everyone to use it because it's not the kind of things often used and had some unexpectedly good performances, most notably against Blaine.

Vulpix

I feel Vulpix should be D-tier. It had a free win against Erika but it was mostly bad outside her. Koga was average and it didn't do much against Blaine and Giovanni. Sabrina was nice admitedly but due to bad AI she isn't too difficult most of the time and with a few less levels (which should be the norm as I had to do the backtrack for Moltres), it wouldn't have been a clear win. The Elite 4 and Champion were bad as Ninetales could at most take down 1 mon (2 if you count Cloyster from Lorelei but it doesn't do anything). I might be harsh and some might think it could be C-rank reading the logs but adding to mediocre perfrmances, training Vulpix wasn't an easy task. You want to catch it on Route 7 as opposed to Route 8 as otherwise it won't have Ember (and good luck training it to level 29 using only switch grinding) and that means a lower levels. Vulpix just has poor stats and training it takes forever, all of that for a mon that is hardly relevant outside of Erika and Sabrina. Even then, Erika isn't the most important fight and Sabrina too due to her bad AI. Really, I don't see it above D-tier, it's just not good enough.

Moltres

This is alright in D-tier. Moltres was quite frankly not all that good. It requires an important back track that takes a lot of time (getting to Moltres actually takes time) and it means you have to figth Blaine first if you want to use Moltres as much as you can. Even then, it wasn't even that good outside of beating Sabrina, having an average E4 performance. Sabina isn't too hard if you're planning to use Moltres because your team will be overleved for her anyway. Lorelei was pretty good as taking down Lapras and Jynx is always great but Bruno was really bad as was Lance and Agatha heavily relied on luck. Champion was lackluster as Moltres only claimed 2 kills. Really, Moltres is fine in D-tier because it requires a massive back track and hasaverage performances and they're many better options to use.


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Having used Pinsir, I also want to nominate Scyther for C-tier as while it's a bit worse, I feel it deserves to be in the same tier.

Scyther has the potential to beat Erika (OHKOing Victreebel and Tangela and 2HKOing Vileplume with Aerial Ace), Koga (+6 Aerial Ace OHKOes everything and hits in spite of Smokescreen) and Agatha (Agility + 3 SD is enough to win without any problem here). Giovanni and Lorelei are a bit harder to do but by koing the first mon and setting up on Dugtrio and Cloyster respecitvely, Scyther can pull a win here. It's annoying to get (and requires more coins than Pinsir) but I feel these strong matchups is enough for C-tier.


Lastly, another Pokemon that operates similarly that I'd like to see in C-tier is Farfetch'd. It's a great HM SLave with Cut and Fly early game that has tarded experience and actually performs well agaisnt Surge, Erika and Koga. Honestly, I had the same experience as Texas reading his logs but what I did was using Aerial Ace for Agatha. Honestly, Farfetch'd barely has uses for the E4 but by using Swords Dance/Agility/Fly/Aerial Ace (you don't need Steel Wing or Cut for the league tbh), it can actually sweep easily Agatha, OHKOing everything with Aerial Ace at +6 while outspeeding thanks to Agility. I feel the combination of HM Slave, boosted exp, strong mid-game gym performance and the ability to win against Agatha is enough to push it to C-tier.


I may do some other runs when my logs are lackluster but except for things like Drowzee (that might deserve B-tier), Kadabra, Fearow and maybe Persian, that doesn't look necessary.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

If you are looking for someone else to take over (and continue the project from its current state; most of the ranks are fine imo) and no one in this thread wants to take this up, I could do the job. I have experience with most things, as evidenced by the first posts of the thread, but never got around to retesting things, as I focused on other lists.

I am willing to concede if someone that's been more active than me wants to do this instead, especially since I haven't posted too much here, could maybe provide some nominations if someone else wants to run this.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

If you're willing to administrate to get this to conclusion I think that would be terrific, you certainly have every credential to back that up. As has been indicated we're definitely in the end stages at this point, so a guiding hand is definitely a better choice than a spear head, so to speak.

 

[TCTphantom]

Zebes respectfully disagree on Starmie for a few reasons (will edit in my logs later tonight or tomorrow). From my experience, Starmie was even more dominant than Jynx was from my personal experience and the investment is not as extreme as you might think. For starters, there is so much money that wanting Ice Beam at the bare minimum is not an issue. Even then, Blizzard and Thunder can do the job easily, so it is nowhere near as resource dependent as you might end up thinking. Furthermore, while Thunder accuracy can be annoying, Lorelei is still a good fight even in spite of some RNG. Most of her team struggles to deal with you, and that is the fight where Thunder RNG hurts the most. It also helps that from my experience, Starmie even in the late game never felt like it was sapping too much exp away from things. With essentially no grinding and just fighting trainers, it kept up with everyone and on a five mon team wasn’t the biggest hurdle. To me, the investment, outside of the Psychic TM, is not a huge deal due to how easily you can get money in Kanto and how Blizzard and Thunder can serve as adequate substitutes. The way I see it, Starmie stomps the game as hard as Mime, Zam, and Jynx. It’s far more similar to them from my experience (spoilers it solo beat every fight without healing) than the A tier mons like Nidoking or Squirtle.

Also real quick before I edit my full logs in (still recouping from vacation), gonna give a tldr on my tiering of each of the other mons. Zard A tier, outside of Misty and the league he stomps and even then he did fine, Raichu B since he did solid until the league, Hitmonlee should be B, even w bulk up the league was not easy for it without healing, Aero C it does great but comes so late and needs babying.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Got the approval for taking over the list. If you want to help finish this, go to the new thread.

I've gone over the whole thread and applied some rank changes. If you feel I missed something, feel free to mention it and I will look into it.

I have marked stuff that needs more discussion, so feel free to check the OP too. The "new" clauses/rules shouldn't affect anyone's logs until now, they are merely expanded from what you guys have already been doing