SPOILERS! Poipole and Naganadel

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Toshiro46 said:
Realistically though, this thing doesn’t have a whole lot of defensive counterplay. AV Gear can comfortably take a +2 Fire Blast and OHKO (after rocks) in turn with Fleur.
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And even then Naganadel can be tweaked to take Fleur Cannon better depending on what you want to outspeed. This is plausible as there are very few things between Base 110 and Naganadel's base Speed that it has to bother about.

Just as an example...

64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Speed lets Naganadel outspeed everything up to Serperior (just an example)... but it also makes AV Magearna's Fleur Cannon have a low chance of OHKOing after rocks.

56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Naganadel: 238-282 (78.5 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, both Fire Blast and Flamethrower 2HKO at +2 (Flamethrower has a very tiny chance of not doing so without SR).
 
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Siggu said:
And even then Naganadel can be tweaked to take Fleur Cannon better depending on what you want to outspeed. This is plausible as there are very few things between Base 110 and Naganadel's base Speed that it has to bother about.

Just as an example...

64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Speed lets Naganadel outspeed everything up to Serperior (just an example)... but it also makes AV Magearna's Fleur Cannon have a low chance of OHKOing after rocks.

56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 238-282 (78.5 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, both Fire Blast and Flamethrower 2HKO at +2.
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My bad, I forgot to add it.

It will be a nice investigation to check whether Flamethrower or Fire Blast is the better Fire move on Naganadel... for the targets it has, they don't seem to have any key differences in results.
 
Flamethrower vs Fire Blast on OU's Steel-types:

Ferrothorn:

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 296-352 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 720-848 (204.5 - 240.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 588-696 (167 - 197.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn unboosted, after a boost both moves cleanly OHKO.

Mega Scizor:

252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 388-460 (113.1 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 476-560 (138.7 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Both OHKO

Assault Vest Magearna:

252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 86-102 (24.5 - 29%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 104-124 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 17.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 206-244 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 170-200 (48.4 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Niether 2HKOes before a boost; both 2HKO after. Flamethrower needs Rocks to guarantee the 2HKO though.

Celesteela:

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 208-246 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 170-202 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 414-488 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 340-400 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 340-400 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Blast 2HKOes most of the time unboosted, and always OHKOes at +2. Flamethrower doesn't 2HKO unboosted nor OHKO at +2, although with Stealth Rock down it still has a good chance to OHKO.

Mega Mawile

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 248-292 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Blast nearly always OHKOes; Flamethrower only has a slim chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock down.

Skarmory

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 314-370 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 256-302 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With Stealth Rock down, Skarmory is always OHKOed by Fire Blast.

If you can guarantee Stealth Rock stays up, I'd suggest using Flamethrower as it's more reliable. Nothing stopping you using Fire Blast if you want though.
 
On paper, the three viable sets to me are Timid Nasty Plot Dragonium Z as a balance breaker, Modest Scarf as a revenge killer/cleaner, and potentially Timid Specs if one favors immediate power over potential setup since this thing lacks bulk.
 
TheTraininator said:
On paper, the three viable sets to me are Timid Nasty Plot Dragonium Z as a balance breaker, Modest Scarf as a revenge killer/cleaner, and potentially Timid Specs if one favors immediate power over potential setup since this thing lacks bulk.
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Modest Scarf doesn't outspeed Scarf Latios, so you'd probably want Timid with 172 Speed EVs, which still gets the SpA Beast Boost while barely outspeeding Latios (plus, extra bulk doesn't exactly hurt either)
 
Albacore said:
Modest Scarf doesn't outspeed Scarf Latios, so you'd probably want Timid with 172 Speed EVs, which still gets the SpA Beast Boost while barely outspeeding Latios (plus, extra bulk doesn't exactly hurt either)
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Oh shit, yeah, that’s a way better spread, thanks.
 
tyrantytar said:
everyones talking about naganadel in ou/ubers... what about poipole in lc though?
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not Valid because, apparently, its obtained at Level 40, and LC needs a mon to be available at level 5. Its why they never had an issue with Type:Null

That means its gonna find a home in somewhere between PU and RU i'd say, and i don't know those tiers well enough to say.
 
TheMohZone said:
not Valid because, apparently, its obtained at Level 40, and LC needs a mon to be available at level 5. Its why they never had an issue with Type:Null

That means its gonna find a home in somewhere between PU and RU i'd say, and i don't know those tiers well enough to say.
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I think it’ll end up in PU with maybe a little use in NU. Nasty Plot gives it a niche but it doesn’t have the coverage or speed Naganadel does and it has to rely on Hidden Power to get by its checks.
 
Yunsen said:
I think it’ll end up in PU with maybe a little use in NU. Nasty Plot gives it a niche but it doesn’t have the coverage or speed Naganadel does and it has to rely on Hidden Power to get by its checks.
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I doubt it will get play even that low down. NP is nice, but elaborating on what you mentioned, it's not fast, not bulky (even with an Eviolite), it has no reliable recovery, and it's only coverage options are Dragon Pulse, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power. Sure, it isn't even as bad as certain fully evolved Mons, but I still doubt that it will see any competitive play, even in PU.
 
jackgraves said:
I doubt it will get play even that low down. NP is nice, but elaborating on what you mentioned, it's not fast, not bulky (even with an Eviolite), it has no reliable recovery, and it's only coverage options are Dragon Pulse, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power. Sure, it isn't even as bad as certain fully evolved Mons, but I still doubt that it will see any competitive play, even in PU.
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Does it not get Fire Blast/Flamethrower from TMs?
 
TheTraininator said:
Poipole doesn’t, no. Only Naganadel does.
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Not like anyone will really use Poipole when we have Naganadel to have fun with.

Thing looks really similar to Salazzle at first glance due to the spatk and speed orientated spread, but man the 60 bst difference really affects a ton. It's slightly tougher, has both better speed and attack, and still has the fire/poison/dragon matchup, but can pull it out more easily because of U-turn and BB which causes it snowball either its spatk or speed, and your foe is gonna have a hard time trying to counter it when it started sweeping stuff with a Nasty Plot boost, though it's gonna have some problems trying to deal with things that blocks the 3-move matchup (say, suprisingly Stakataka). It's really similar to Pheromosa in this regard except Phero is more deadly because of its slightly better attack stat and its unrivaling speed.

It will have quite a niche in OU, but not Ubers level of powerful. Will expect quite something from it.
 
ChrystalFalchion said:
Flamethrower vs Fire Blast on OU's Steel-types:

Ferrothorn:

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 296-352 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 720-848 (204.5 - 240.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 588-696 (167 - 197.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn unboosted, after a boost both moves cleanly OHKO.

Mega Scizor:

252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 388-460 (113.1 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 476-560 (138.7 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Both OHKO

Assault Vest Magearna:

252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 86-102 (24.5 - 29%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 104-124 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 17.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 206-244 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 170-200 (48.4 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Niether 2HKOes before a boost; both 2HKO after. Flamethrower needs Rocks to guarantee the 2HKO though.

Celesteela:

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 208-246 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 170-202 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 414-488 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 340-400 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 340-400 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Blast 2HKOes most of the time unboosted, and always OHKOes at +2. Flamethrower doesn't 2HKO unboosted nor OHKO at +2, although with Stealth Rock down it still has a good chance to OHKO.

Mega Mawile

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 248-292 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fire Blast nearly always OHKOes; Flamethrower only has a slim chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock down.

Skarmory

252 SpA Dragalge Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 314-370 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dragalge Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 256-302 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With Stealth Rock down, Skarmory is always OHKOed by Fire Blast.

If you can guarantee Stealth Rock stays up, I'd suggest using Flamethrower as it's more reliable. Nothing stopping you using Fire Blast if you want though.
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Just a quick check on the kill list, personally it seems that it'd be easier and more likely to kill something relevant with fire blast. But again the power of the attack doesn't really matter if RNG god hates you.
 
At +2 Flamethrower generally gets the job done, while Fire Blast is more consistent beforehand. If I was writing the analysis I'd slash Fire Blast first.
 
Flamethrower should be used on the Specs set at all times over Fire Blast imo. In all honesty, out of all the Steel types in the above calcs, the only roll you potentially miss out on is the 2HKO on AV Magearna, which has no reliably recovery and can be whittled down pretty easily. Also, it's a roll to even 2HKO it with Fire Blast to begin with (76% chance to 2HKO after rocks, 17% without, and you're most likely gonna miss anyways). Not even Specs Heat Wave picks up the 2HKO on Mag after rocks.
 
ZenJestr said:
also, for in-game purposes, you won't be able to use Naganadel until you reach the Pokemon Center right before you battle the Elite Four since it can't learn Dragon Pulse anymore at the level you receive it (40). you'll need a Heart Scale in order to get one before the end of the campaign.
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And let me guess- the move tutor that teaches Dragon Pulse is the only one inaccessible until the postgame, right? So no way to sacrifice a little BP to get the move early?
 
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