Pokémon Pinsir

[Sucker Lunch]

nah 24 hp evs is 277 hp, youre all good on that end

Cool, I do sort of wonder if 6 more Hit Points actually means anything besides an extra turn of survival in a sandstorm lol.

***

Anyway, even though we all generally accept that house standard (Return/Earthquake/Quick Attack/Swords Dance) is the best set for Pinsir, as MudcrabDL mentioned, there's only so much we can discuss one set. So, with that being said, do you guys think Bulk Up instead of Swords Dance has any feasibility? Mega Pinsir's defense is pretty high and he would certainly benefit from it. But then again...his main weaknesses are specially based, and also

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 150-176 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It would take 3 bulk-ups to even think about not being two-shotted by Sharp Beak Talonflame lol. Anyway, I might try Bulk Up for fun on my OU team this week and see how it goes.

 

[hobo bob]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned but Frustration has a niche use over Return when your opponent is using Ditto. Since imposter doesn't copy happiness level then they will be using a 1 BP move. It's not a major point but I feel it should be mentioned since there is no downside to using Frustration over Return (unless you are on Cartridge, where it is difficult to lower happiness).

 

[JuliAnn]

Mega Pinsir's check list is sizable due to his plethora of weaknesses. He also has standard OU counters, and a huge stealth rock weakness, so I doubt we'll see him up for suspect. He's literally this gen's haxorus.

That's nice to hear. I don't the stealth rock weakness is as big a deal this gen because of defog. So what is the list of Pokemon that can switch in on all of his moveset at +2?

 

[haunter]

Actually the number of Pokémon that can switch into a +2 Pinsir is extremely small. Off the top of my head I can think of Skarmory, Bronzong (must watch for mold breaker EQ before Pinsir evolves), a healty Rotom-W and Zapdos. Then, of course, there's a fair amount of revenge killers (scarfed Steel types for example and Talonflame).

 

[Hidious]

Actually the number of Pokémon that can switch into a +2 Pinsir is extremely small. Off the top of my head I can think of Skarmory, Bronzong (must watch for mold breaker EQ before Pinsir evolves), a healty Rotom-W and Zapdos. Then, of course, there's a fair amount of revenge killers (scarfed Steel types for example and Talonflame).

There's also Regirock, lol

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But it's regirock so there is no use using him in OU anyway, unless you are challenged to use a mono-rock team to see how high you can get on the ladder, then it would be a decent choice, maybe.

 

[JuliAnn]

There's also Regirock, lol

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But it's regirock so there is no use using him in OU anyway, unless you are challenged to use a mono-rock team to see how high you can get on the ladder, then it would be a decent choice, maybe.

That's a lot of damage. That's the only thing that bugs me about this bug :P. Not many things can switch in on this thing. Keeping SR up is a pain this gen with that annoying bird Mandibuzz (I hate that thing). What about Rotom H? Can he switch in on his moves then overheat to kill.

 

[dialganet]

That's a lot of damage. That's the only thing that bugs me about this bug :P. Not many things can switch in on this thing. Keeping SR up is a pain this gen with that annoying bird Mandibuzz (I hate that thing). What about Rotom H? Can he switch in on his moves then overheat to kill.

Full specially invested Rotom-H:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Specially invested or Offensive:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And in return:
252+ SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 440-518 (161.7 - 190.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or, in defensive variants:
0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 320-378 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, you're pretty much winning if you switch in as Pinsir SDances or uses Return. However, Rotom-H has that SR weakness that will tear him of 25% of HPs every time he gets in, so you have either to control hazards or preserve Rotom solely for Mpinsir.
And, issue number two, Pinsir could be running Mold Breaker (which I do) to discourage Rotom H and W to come in.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 292-348 (96 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Ouch. That alone can prevent you from coming in.
That's the problem about Pinsir: you know what he will do, and you have little to do, and when you can, you have to predict right, bar carrying Skarmory.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

That's nice to hear. I don't the stealth rock weakness is as big a deal this gen because of defog. So what is the list of Pokemon that can switch in on all of his moveset at +2?

Switch in = Zapdos, Skarmory Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Bronzong,

Below are some options for Revenge Killing him at +2 with a full health mon, bro. Stuff designated with a * means it's viable if Stealth Rock isn't on the field. Yeah, but the trouble about Revenge Killing +2 Mega Pinsir is that it's hard if Rocks are up on your side. But on the other hand, getting +2 with MP isn't exactly a walk in the park either. I like using a team with strong offensive pressure so that if Pinsir wants to SD, then he'll be punished for it by heavy damage or status depending on which Pokemon I have in play.

After Death** (Revenge Kill) = Thundurus, Raikou, terrakion, heliolisk, scarfed excadrill, balloon heatran, Scarfed Landorus-T, Scarfed Thundurus-T, Latios, Talonflame, Scarfed Garchomp, Starmie*, Rhyperior, Scarfed Ditto, Jolteon, Scarfed Hydreigon*, *Choice Specs Noivern, Mega Manecteric, Aerodactyl, Mega Aerodactyl, Scarfed Entei, *Scarf Victini, *Scarfed Staraptor, *Mandibuzz.

Seriously though, it's crazy how powerful the sweepers are this gen. But what I find hilarious is that as we get more megas and new pokemon, the current behemoths will eventually become overshadowed by stronger threats. I can only imagine how ridiculous the stats will become.

 

[MudcrabDL]

I actually love the bulk up idea. Being able to survive a Brave Bird is huge, and Mincir only needs to take one hit to kill Talon. With 152 defense EVs (taken from attack) and at +1, he can take a brave bird from full health and OHKO in return with Return. The power drop is noticeable, but 252att is kind of overkill anyway. I might run that, see how it goes.

 

[Stoo]

what about

outspeeding foe jolly mega pinsir?

well, the only time this would matter is if your last resort for killing their pinsir was to send in yours and quick attack. this would also only work if you had already mega evolved also so pretty much not an issue.

 

[jbtc10]

I still prefer Feint over Quick Attack because removing one of the most common checks to Pinsir (Talonflame) after rocks with a +2 Feint is priceless and can win you games on the spot, especially since most people don't expect it because it's much less common than Quick Attack. Talonflame is just everywhere, and I don't enjoy having my Pinsir sweeps interrupted by something that common. The lower BP does suck sometimes, but after rocks damage and prior damage throughout the game, they become similar anyway. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94210345

 

[reale]

I still prefer Feint over Quick Attack because removing one of the most common checks to Pinsir (Talonflame) after rocks with a +2 Feint is priceless and can win you games on the spot, especially since most people don't expect it because it's much less common than Quick Attack. Talonflame is just everywhere, and I don't enjoy having my Pinsir sweeps interrupted by something that common. The lower BP does suck sometimes, but after rocks damage and prior damage throughout the game, they become similar anyway. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94210345

I don't get it, +2 quick attack still does more damage than +2 feint against talonflame
Quick Attack 85.9 - 101.6%
Feint 64.7 - 76.5

 

[jbtc10]

Talonflame outspeeds Pinsir and kills it with Brave Bird before it can use Quick Attack. Feint has +2 priority, so it kills Talonflame before it can use its +1 priority Brave Bird.

 

[skies]

Actually the number of Pokémon that can switch into a +2 Pinsir is extremely small. Off the top of my head I can think of Skarmory, Bronzong (must watch for mold breaker EQ before Pinsir evolves), a healty Rotom-W and Zapdos. Then, of course, there's a fair amount of revenge killers (scarfed Steel types for example and Talonflame).

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 161-189 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Honestly, Skarmory is the only 100% counter I have found out there. Nothing with Air Baloon can beat it, as none really want to take a frustration.

 

[Let It Go]

Even if Skarmory is a "counter", what is it going to do to Pinsir? Whirlwind it away to let it come in again later while you take massive damage from its attacks? I'm pretty sure Brave Bird doesn't even OHKO (quite possibly 2HKO).

 

[Midtek]

I don't get it, +2 quick attack still does more damage than +2 feint against talonflame
Quick Attack 85.9 - 101.6%
Feint 64.7 - 76.5

Feint has +2 priority, whereas Gale Wings BB and Quick Attack both have +1 priority. Since Feint is Normal-type it still gets STAB from Aerilate. It's a matter of whether the added priority is worth giving up the effective 13BP (before STAB).

 

[reale]

Even if Skarmory is a "counter", what is it going to do to Pinsir? Whirlwind it away to let it come in again later while you take massive damage from its attacks? I'm pretty sure Brave Bird doesn't even OHKO (quite possibly 2HKO).

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or you know, put rocks and blew it away

 

[skies]

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or you know, put rocks and blew it away

But if Rocks are up then Pinsir beats Skarmory even. If it sets up Rocks, then Whirlwinds away, it won't be able to, because Pinsir 2HKOes like 80% the time or soemthing after SR.

 

[Strykeypoo]

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 161-189 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Honestly, Skarmory is the only 100% counter I have found out there. Nothing with Air Baloon can beat it, as none really want to take a frustration.

You seem to be implying that Mega Pinsir gets a free +2.If it can switch in on the SD, take a hit if it has to and then kill or cripple Mega Pinsir, it's a counter. Zapdos can do that, Rotom-W can do that, Talonflame can do that without taking a hit and even physically defensive Tyranitar/Mega Tyranitar can do that unless Mega Pinsir is running Adamant. Also, if you choose to set up instead of simply firing off a Return, Mega Pinsir is then vulnerable to scarfed or faster threats like Garchomp or Latios.

When you play with Mega Pinsir and look at the damage calcs, Swords Dance is more often than not a liability. There are so many pokemon in OU that can kill MP if it chooses to SD that otherwise would have died to a Return + Quick Attack. MP is much more threatening a pokemon when you look at it as something that can do 80% to so many threats, rather than 100% after a SD.

 

[haunter]

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 161-189 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

That means that if Zapdos/Rotom aren't weakened, they can switch in and force Pinsir out or kill it with their electric stab. Zapdos, in particular, has reliable recovery, meaning that even if SR is on the field, it can consistently switch into Pinsir and force it out. Also, as the above user pointed out, it's not like Pinsir can easily switch in and set up swords dances with impunity. Skarmory might be the only hard counter, but there are numerous checks to Pinsir.

Honestly, Skarmory is the only 100% counter I have found out there. Nothing with Air Baloon can beat it, as none really want to take a frustration

Not sure what you mean here. Steel types with air baloon, like Heatran and some Aegislash, can easily check/revenge kill Pinsir.

 

[skies]

That means that if Zapdos/Rotom aren't weakened, they can switch in and force Pinsir out or kill it with their electric stab. Zapdos, in particular, has reliable recovery, meaning that even if SR is on the field, it can consistently switch into Pinsir and force it out. Also, as the above user pointed out, it's not like Pinsir can easily switch in and set up swords dances with impunity. Skarmory might be the only hard counter, but there are numerous checks to Pinsir.

Not sure what you mean here. Steel types with air baloon, like Heatran and some Aegislash, can easily check/revenge kill Pinsir.

They can revenge kill, but what I was saying is if they are stupid enough to switch into the Return, then it can just Earthquake them both. And I may be behind on things, but doens't Heatran usually carry Leftovers?

 

[haunter]

They can revenge kill, but what I was saying is if they are stupid enough to switch into the Return, then it can just Earthquake them both. And I may be behind on things, but doens't Heatran usually carry Leftovers?

Most Heatran do, but it doesn't mean that you can't run baloon if you need to patch up some weaknesses.

 

[reale]

But if Rocks are up then Pinsir beats Skarmory even. If it sets up Rocks, then Whirlwinds away, it won't be able to, because Pinsir 2HKOes like 80% the time or soemthing after SR.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
come on, where's 80% of the time come from? skarmory also has roost
granted skarmory won't be having a good time against pinsir, but only if it managed to come really clean without hitting rocks and SD'ing without any single injury

 

[56k]

The problem is that pinsir will have some other teammates that kind of force in skarm's presence earlier on, or they'll threaten their OWN sweep, which chips it down beforehand. And skarm's not strong enough to ohko so pinsir might actually get in two +2 returns if someone has defogged. If skarm uses whirlwind it's probably guaranteed to bring in a rotom-w or kyurem-b or something, making that option pretty rough as well because it's just another free hit for the opponent. It's definitely not sufficient to just put skarm in slot 1 and consider pinsir "taken care of"; it's probably the best first step, but then slot 2 should be something that checks pinsir and also pseudo-checks charizard, like CB talonflame or scarf-tar. This is kind of a backwards way to team build though, why react so hard to pinsir when you could just use it instead right? Well I personally don't like babysitting SR-weak pokemon so this is the approach I take.

 

[nismo303]

Swords Dance on the predicted Roost? Or Earthquake on the Predicted roost, if you're slower than Skarmory.