Phione? Viable in ou?

pewpewlazerzman

With manaphy gone from OU level play I have turned to its previously unused relative, Phione. All manaphys I played against seemed to follow the same stratagy; set up tail glow and sweep. Now that manaphy is uber, i looked to see if Phione could take its place. I came across a problem. Phione doesnt learn Tail Glow. So I decided to make a Phione that does when I never saw a manaphy do. Seriously abuse Rest Hydration. Now crazy health regen says to me defensive pokemon, stall tactics. So I decided on this.

Toxic Staller
Phione @ Leftovers
Hydration
252 hp 128 def 128 spdef
Bold/Calm

- Rest
- Rain Dance
- Toxic
- Surf


This set really needs leftovers recovery so the item is obvious. Without wet rock I think it needs to have Rain Dance in the set so it doesnt have to switch out for 'dance support. Rest and toxic are easy choices. With no special attack boosting nature or EV's I needed an attack that was good by its self. Surf gets STAB and benefits from rain dance so i hope it can break most substitutes. Roar/Yawn would be SO nice on this set but Phione isnt cool like that.

Constructive criticism time plz?

ps: first post ftw
 
Without Tail Glow, or even Calm Mind at that matter, Phione can't even dream of standing in the shadow of Manaphy. Hydration + Rain Dance + Rest is a fine formula for surviving, but the stats of our little friend aren't exactly OU material either.

It's the fact that Phione lacks a buff and good stats that makes it fall short of being OU material. At the same time, if you did fill in those holes, all you would have is Manaphy all over again.

To put it in simpler terms: Phione isn't OU material.
 
100% blocked by any steel that resists water, especially if it has good spdef (see: Empoleon).
I say personally use Toxic to start wearing the foe down, then use BRINE once they drop under half health. Totally beats out surf IMO. If you have Wet Rock Rain Support, which you should, you should drop rain for Surf OR Ice Beam- Ice Beam until they drop below 1/2, then Brine to death.

Not too good in OU, but I expect it to be a staple of UU.
 
I agree with Boa. It will be used in UU. But not a staple, as it loses Tail Glow. Rest Hydration is still good though.
 
In UU though, it will have to compete with Dewgong, who basically does the same but has dual STAB. Dewgong does have more weaks though and less offence, but its defences are much better.
 
Phione is an interesting raindancer, and I thought it would be more viable if it didn't have competition from dewgong, which in all honesty, is better in most respects.

I suspect that in worries that phione would be just as overpowered as manaphy gamefreak removed any attack raising moves. It does get psych up but that isn't anywhere near as useful.

It'll probably make a showing in UU, it might also be a very strong player in double battle raindance teams, where hydration will have more opportunity to shine. A large number of "worthless" pokemon seem to be designed specifically for doubles teams, I might poke into the meta a bit more :)
 
Recovery in 2v2 seems like a waste of time mostly. If Phione ever sees play it's just in UU where it can try to be a bulky water of sorts. But tbh I'd just take Gastrodon with Recover.
 
It has the same stats, a better trait but worse movepool than Glalie, who is NU in ADV. I see Phione being UU at best, with some sort of set involving hydration rest. Shame it doesn't have the same movepool as Manaphy - I don't see the point of lowering the stats and the moves...
 
Bulky water Phione will have difficulty working, 80 bases for everything doomed Glaile to a life of uselessness despite a decent move selection.

Its no different with Phione who lives under Manaphy shadow in regular play. Even in UU/BL play its completely overshadowed by the likes of Kingdra, Blastoise, Walrein, Dewgong and maybe even Empolean and Feraligatr who all offer much more with higher stats.
 
I really wish Phione learned Tail Glow. Even then, with it's all around below-average stats it would maybe see play on the fringe of OU. Or maybe if the stats were all base 90s instead of 80s. Instead we have this thing that is completely outclasses even in UU.
 
Boa1891 said:
100% blocked by any steel that resists water, especially if it has good spdef (see: Empoleon).
Click to expand...

I just thought this statement was a little funny seeing as how Empoleon is the only steel type that resists water, and there are a few that are weak to it. :P

A few random Phione damage calcs, with the EVs given in the OP, and assuming a defense-enhancing nature whether the attack is physical or special:

Timid Gengar thunderbolt: 54-64%
Adamant CB Tyranitar Crunch: 58-68%
Adamant CS Heracross Close Combat: 55-65%
Adamant Gyarados EQ/SE after 1 DD: 46-54%
Adamant CB Weavile Night Slash: 47-55%
Unboosted Modest Porygon-Z thunderbolt: 61-72%

And I don't even have to tell you what draco meteor/outrage from any of the big dragons will do to this thing.

All common opponents that Phione will come up against, and all 2HKO or sometimes 2HKO it; with leftovers, it can definitely survive Gyarados until it gets a second DD in, and it can survive Adamant Weavile until it gets a critical, but the others are still too much for it. Meanwhile Phione has one admittedly STABed attack, but without strong offensive stats, to hit back with and toxic, which will maybe help you poison one threat before getting KOd. Hyrarest is useless in this case since you'll have to rest on every turn just to stay alive.

Now, some of these become 3HKOs if you pour all of Phione's defense in one area, and make it an exclusive physical/special wall. CBTar can still 2HKO it though, as can Hera if it's choice band instead of scarf; dragons can set up on it, porygon-z can get a free scheme in and then 1HKO; and frankly, you can hardly switch this thing in on anybody, which is its biggest problem.

If it maybe had 90s in everything instead, this might work. You could probably get it to work sometimes I suppose. But there's just no reason to use it over anything else.
 
This will never work, Phione has shit defenses. Also, it really looks bad when you can't spell "viable" in your topic title! I fixed it for you. I'll leave it up to another mod if they want to close this; however I think it'd be cool if, instead of OU, we discussed how Phione could possibly work in UU.
 
Phione is a Glalie that can't spike, has a bad offensive STAB, and can only address other waters with Grass Knot. This works for Walrein, Whiscash, Gastrodon, and Quagsire, but is insufficient for most other waters. Don't even get me started on Ludi, which walls this to hell.

Sunnydoom really hoists this by its petard as well. Abomasnow isn't going to switch in (to Houndoom) (Abomasnow is an awesome counter to Phione anyway, btw).

Phione has the same problems as Manaphy in that it needs IBeam, Surf, and Grass Knot to deal with all threats, otherwise it gets walled by either Water types, Grass types, or is left Unstabbed. Problem is, 80 is a horrendously mediocre attack stat, even in UU. There's nothing Phione could do attackwise that couldn't be bettered by Golduck, which has essentially the same defenses but more speed, better SA, and a superior movepool.

Verdict: Phione is a poor special attacker, making Hydrest its best option. Use it over Dewgong if you're team doesn't need any more fighting or rock weaknesses in exchange for STAB on Ice.
 
Water is one of the best STABs in the game imo, and all the Waters you summed up are likely to be extremely common in UU.
 
Mekkah said:
Water is one of the best STABs in the game imo, and all the Waters you summed up are likely to be extremely common in UU.
Click to expand...

It is for OU, where you have Gliscor, Hippowdon, Heatran, Donphan, and Rhyperior running all over the place, but in UU you run into a lot more grassers and mid-range water types, not to mention all the Water Absorbers and Dry Skin users. Water works for the Nidos, Gligar, and Lunarock, but there's a lot more water resists and generic special walls waiting in the wings of UU: Hypno, Grumpig, and Lanturn are everywhere.

Grass Knot Phione might get Walrein, Whiscash, and Quags to switch out, but Gastrodon will Mirror Coat it or Recover it off. If its going up against Feraligatr it has to watch out for DD or Swords Dance. Blastoise can also Mirror Coat it. Golduck CM's in its face.

Trust me on this: as a user of Meganium, Meganium walls Phione badly. UnStabbed Ice Beam is pathetic on Megs. Now that it has Aromatherapy, it can't be Toxic'd as easily either.

My Phione recommendation:

Phione @ Wet Rock
~ Rain Dance
~ Rest
~ Surf
~ Grass Knot

Grass Knot is much more useful than Toxic, since Manaphy won't be taking out any of the counters that would be theoretically be addressed by Ice Beam. Most grass types have far too much SD for 80 SA Ice Beam to do enough to keep Phione in. IBeam would be a 3HKO minimum on the Status platformer and Subseed set, regardless of how many EVs you pump in SA. Its a 4HKO with zero, but it isn't worth it since if Vile's in, it has Sun and you can't do anything once it sets the sun up. Granted, if you run the 252/252 Vile it can be 2HKO'd by Ibeam with a small EV investment, but you have to predict its entrance initially. Its a lot better to slowly snipe off other water types. Grassers are easier to deal with using another pokemon.

Of Course, a Phione on Phione battle is a stallwar.
 
So I decided to make a Phione that does when I never saw a manaphy do. Seriously abuse Rest Hydration. Now crazy health regen says to me defensive pokemon, stall tactics. So I decided on this.
Click to expand...
Manaphy did do this in PBR. That retarded magician used it. All I had was Lugia left, and permanent rain from Kyogre, so I had to keep Roosting to tone down his Ice Beam while he slowly ran out of moves and Struggled himself to death. If he had this specific set however, I would have been screwed.
 
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