Pheromosa Discussion

[Ash Borer]

Since when was High Jump Kick an spammable move? Ghost-type Pokemon, Protect users and 10% chance everytime Pheromosa wants to hit doesn't scream a broken Pokemon.

And Poison Jab is not STAB Gunk Shot

And this is the list of Pokemon that can take its STABs wuth little to no effort:
-Clefable, Landorus-T.
-Tornadus-T, M-Heracross,
-Talonflame (nerfed), Thundurus.
-Azumarill, M-Charizard Y, Gliscor, M-Pinsir, Skarmory,
-Gengar, Nidoking, M-Aerodactyl, M-Altaria, Dragonite, Volcarona, Zapdos, Togekiss.

Resists High Jump Kick and has no problems with U-Turn:
-M-Sableye, Amoonguss, M-Venusaur.

Also, there's Aegislash, who will be unbanned at the start, who is a complete COUNTER of this thing.

Forget Clefable, Amoongus, Lando, Tornadus, Thundurus, Azumarill, Gliscor, etc. all getting squashed by coverage moves. Lets talk about some of these physical walls that can "have no problems with u-turn".

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 109-130 (30 - 35.8%) -- 36.4% chance to 3HKO

That is not "no problems". You switch in to absorb the HJK, instead get hit by u-turn, they bring in something that threatens you out, and now you have a half dead wall that can't counter anything. This is just like Genesect.
Oh yeah and Skarm

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 164-192 (49.1 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

some counter.

You're right that Aegislash completely walls this thing. Buzzwole is actually an incredible counter to it too, conveniently. However, it's quite clear that pheromosa will be very, very difficult to switch into, and very hard to wall. It's very much like Greninja, Deoxys, Darkrai and all of those excruciatingly fast Pokemon that are a terror vs. offense but have the raw power and coverage to be almost as scary to defense.

 

[SJCrew]

Yeah nah, I'm not seeing how this mon warrants four pages of discussion. Genesect got banned early two gens in a row, despite all of those shitty arguments about Heatran countering it. It doesn't matter what its 'counters' are when it's theoretically getting offensive momentum 90% of the time and setting up brainless wins. If you've learned anything about competitive Pokemon since DPP, you'll realize straight away that what Pheromosa does is leagues better than anything else in standard and there's no real counterplay for it.

EDIT for revised opinion: I'm forgetting for a moment that we don't know what the initial banlist will look like. If Aegislash comes back, Pheromosa may actually have a really hard time doing anything with it around. That may be just one Pokemon, but Aegislash was already known for pushing half the meta to obscurity. It made Jirachi completely unviable at one point, for example.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah nah, I'm not seeing how this mon warrants four pages of discussion. Genesect got banned early two gens in a row, despite all of those shitty arguments about Heatran countering it. It doesn't matter what its 'counters' are when it's theoretically getting offensive momentum 90% of the time and setting up brainless wins. If you've learned anything about competitive Pokemon since DPP, you'll realize straight away that what Pheromosa does is leagues better than anything else in standard and there's no real counterplay for it.

Hey man let's be fair here:

People thought M-Gengar had counters.

I think this one will slip at least until the big toys like M-Gengar and co go away. I don't really doubt this thing going to the Uber route, though. U-turn is huge for momentum, and if Psychic Terrain is any good this thing gets real scary fast.

 

[Krawdaunt]

Given the nature of beast boost, is it worth not investing in her speed all that much to get a higher attack stat. She would then get a free moxie boost with every kill and still outspeed a good portion of the metagame, right?

 

[Pikachu315111]

Bug/Fighting? Really? What are its stats... oh my Arceus! Deoxys Attack lite.

Though it has a limited movepool it looks. It just barely has STABs, though for Special Fighting it has to deal with Focus Blast (might be best for it to go mixed. Why not, just go with Hasty and Naive as nothing is saving those defenses). Ice Beam/Blizzard, Return, and Poison Jab looks to be its only coverage, sad. But it has some good utilities like Quiver Dance, Quick Guard, Rapid Spin, Speed Swap, and U-turn.

So though limited in options I see a few things you can do with it. Using it to go on the offense, supporting with Rapid Spin and U-turn, or sacrificing itself with Speed Swapping with an ally who won't faint from the wind blowing.

Oh, and good designers with giving it a description about it looking attractive/giving off pheromones yet not having that have anything to do with how it battles.

 

[nameless90]

Pheromosa is not even that weak to priority (unless it is Aerilate Quick Attack from Pinsir):

252 Atk Choice Band Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 102-120 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pheromosa is not killed even of it switches out.
252 Atk Choice Band Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 178-210 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sucker Punch has 10 base power less and is resisted. I used CB in the calculator in order to underline Pheromosa's performance.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 122-144 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 173-204 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 200-238 (70.6 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 179-211 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill (Sitrus Berry variant) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 256-303 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 231-273 (81.6 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 235-278 (83 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means that a team should have or something able to outspeed this thing or two priority users only to deal reliably with this pokemon.

 

[zferolie]

Pheromosa is not even that weak to priority (unless it is Aerilate Quick Attack from Pinsir):

252 Atk Choice Band Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 102-120 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pheromosa is not killed even of it switches out.
252 Atk Choice Band Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 178-210 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sucker Punch has 10 base power less and is resisted. I used CB in the calculator in order to underline Pheromosa's performance.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 122-144 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 173-204 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 200-238 (70.6 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 179-211 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill (Sitrus Berry variant) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 256-303 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 231-273 (81.6 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 235-278 (83 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means that a team should have or something able to outspeed this thing or two priority users only to deal reliably with this pokemon.

Jesus the bug queen naturally resists a lot of the strongest priority, and has enough bulk to still hit back very hard. Impressive.

 

[Colonel M]

Im getting 60% min on Adamant LO Sucker Punch from Bisharp with max Atk (reduced bp too) vs 0/0 Pheromosa. Your Pursuit calc is definitely wrong (should be a lot higher).

 

[nameless90]

Im getting 60% min on Adamant LO Sucker Punch from Bisharp with max Atk (reduced bp too) vs 0/0 Pheromosa. Your Pursuit calc is definitely wrong (should be a lot higher).

Pursuit is not calculated on the switch. You should multiply it x 2.
I also used Jolly nature on Bisharp.

 

[jc104]

I'm thinking of pairing this thing with Dugtrio. A powerful U-Turn to Dugtrio is just generally amazing. The prior damage and its buffed attack might mean that it can actually remove Aegislash and Toxapex.

As if Pheromosa needed anything else to tip it over the edge...

 

[RoyMaster4]

Before it gets banished to ubers, what *can* counter/check it?

Its moveset is pretty much just Lunge, Bug Buzz, High Jump Kick, Focus Blast, U-turn, Ice Beam, Poison Jab, and Quiver Dance (U-turn is admittedly a problem). There are 4 types resist both its STAB moves (Flying, Fairy, Ghost, Poison) and more combinations that can potentially do it (Volcarona, for example), meaning it's going to rely heavily on Ice Beam and Poison Jab. Its offenses aren't THAT high, but it does have both sides to work with. Without Quiver Dance, it can be revenge killed by faster scarfers.

This thing has weaknesses, they just need to be explored a bit more.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

That one guy earlier mentioned Ninjask.

Also obligatory MINIOR mention.
And, well, Talonflame, but that won't be as common.

 

[Halcyon.]

Before it gets banished to ubers, what *can* counter/check it?

Its moveset is pretty much just Lunge, Bug Buzz, High Jump Kick, Focus Blast, U-turn, Ice Beam, Poison Jab, and Quiver Dance (U-turn is admittedly a problem). There are 4 types resist both its STAB moves (Flying, Fairy, Ghost, Poison) and more combinations that can potentially do it (Volcarona, for example), meaning it's going to rely heavily on Ice Beam and Poison Jab. Its offenses aren't THAT high, but it does have both sides to work with. Without Quiver Dance, it can be revenge killed by faster scarfers.

This thing has weaknesses, they just need to be explored a bit more.

Aegislash full-on counters it. It's still ridiculous and should leave immediately.

 

[Dakress]

Before it gets banished to ubers, what *can* counter/check it?

What can tank a hit?

-Bulky poison types not weak to ice.
-Bulky ghost types not weak to ice.
-Gengar:

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 168-198 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Venusaur.
-Skarmory.
-The new sea Urchin.
-Keldeo (only if it's missing Focus Blast)
-Rotom-H/W.
-Aegislash and Doublade.
-Gyarados.
-Mantine.
-Shedinja.

What can tank a hit and kill it in retaliation? (must be at full HP first)

-Bulky poison and ghost types without an ice weakness that have 307 or more (sp) attack and a unresisted STAB move with 85 power or more.
-Gengar:

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 315-372 (110.9 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-Keldeo (only if it's missing Focus Blast)
-Rotom-H/W.
-Aegislash and Doublade.
-Shedinja.

What can revenge kill it?

-Anything with over 295 base speed with a +1, has 307 or more (sp) attack and a unresisted STAB move with 85 power or more.
-Keldeo (only if it's missing Focus Blast).
-Aegislash and Doublade.
-Mantine.
-Ninjask.
-Shedinja.

What can outright wall it?
-The new sea urchin. (without HP electric/ground/anything else it's weak to)
-Aegislash and Doublade.(without any super effective HP)
-Shedinja (without any effective HP or status move)
-Defensive Gyarados & Mantine (without HP electric):

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 88-105 (23.5 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heracross Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 90-107 (24 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 118-140 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: Added some pokes and changed some bits here and there.

 

[FrozenCold]

Gotta like it when no1 mentions Doublade (obviously ik aegislash overshadows it). Also defensive gyarados but no1 is gonna use defensive gyarados in OU anytime soon.

 

[Höhe]

What can revenge kill it?

-Anything with a scarf that has over 295 base speed

If you have to revenge kill it already has +1 or more speed though.

 

[Dakress]

If you have to revenge kill it already has +1 or more speed though.

Good point. I'll change that in a sec.

 

[jackgraves]

I don't think this was discussed here before, but what about taking jackgraves' set and give it a Naughty Nature instead? The main advantage would be to hit harder (duh) and, most importantly, after it KOes an opponent, Beast Boost would raise its Atk stat instead of its Speed stat (I actually don't see the benefits of raising Pheromosa's Speed stat at all), making it even more threatening, especially late-game where all (or most) priority users are gone. I know the speed loss is detrimental, but it still outspeeds Mewtwo and it would've still been KOed by Deoxys-A's Extreme Speed anyway.

Thoughts?

The problem is that (and keep in mind that this will be more of an issue during its possibly brief stint in OU) Naughty means being outpaced by M-Alakazam, M-Lopunny, M-Manectric, and M-Beedrill, (and in Ubers, Mewtwo-Y) all of which will be major threats to it due to the new Speed mechanics for Megas. Pheromosa needs all the Speed it can get, so that it can KO or U-Turn before anything can touch it.

 

[Plulax]

I think that this is possibly going to end up being the most broken hyper offensive core in OU:

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-Turn
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam

Tapu Lele @ Twistedspoon
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit


Automatic Psychic Terrain nullifies priority moves for five turns which is HUGE for glass cannons like Pheromosa and Weavile. Pheromosa can in turn destroy the Steel-types and fat pink blobs that are a major pain for Tapu Lele, opening up for a Calm Mind sweep. Tapu Lele can easily remove Mega Sableye, which is probably the biggest Pheromosa check. This leaves both really sharing one weakness: bulky Psychic types. That's where Weavile comes into play, removing Mew, Slowbro, and Lati@s.

 

[Theorymon]

So with all this talk about how this thing is an obvious Uber, I might as well bring in a fresh perspective here: How I think Pheromosa will fare in Battle Spot Singles, where it can't get banned.

Now many of you have brought up how Pheromosa gets checked pretty hard by some likely to get banned in OU stuff such as Aegislash and Mega Gengar. Well since those will be sticking around in Battle Spot, those two in particular are going to be HUGE problems for Pheromosa. Because of this, I am thinking about an alternative, specially based lure set to potentially surprise Mega Gengar.

Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Ice Beam
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Dark / Hidden Power Psychic

Rash may seem a bit strange, but with a Rash Nature and Hidden Power Dark or Psychic, you actually usually 2HKO max HP Mega Gengar, who would otherwise revenge you pretty easily (watch out for Mega Alakazam though, who might be less niche thanks to Tapu Lele)! Thankfully, Pheromosa outspeeds Mega Gengar by 2 points even with a Rash Nature, and also gets a Special Attack boost from Beast Boost as well. I like the idea of using this as a lure. While HP Dark makes the most sense, I wouldn't use that on Aegislash, who will tank that and possibly get a Weakness Policy boost out of too. Hidden Power Psychic is sorta silly, but it does hit Blaziken harder than the other options, dealing 60-72% to Mega Blaziken (High Jump Kick does plenty but just one Protect will screw Pheromosa over).

Of course, now that you lure Mega Gengar, you have made a big sacrifice: now Pheromosa is walled by Fairy-types! And that's the big problem here in general: Pheromosa can't cover everything in battle spot, it always has to give up something big to deal with big threats. And of course no matter what it uses, Aegislash is going to give it so much grief.

For the record I imagine the set that's been proposed here will work in Battle Spot as well if you got the proper Pokemon to deal with Pheromosa's checks. So this set:

Pheromosa @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Naughty Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam

This will probably work fine (and may even be the most common set on Battle Spot Singles). However, I can't help but feel that U-turn spamming won't be quite as reliable with half the team compared to OU, but Pokemon in the past like Rotom-W have been effective with it.

One last thing to mention for singles: I would not be shocked if Focus Sash ended up being the most common item on Pheromosa, since it allows it to revenge kill threats such as Dragon Dance Salamence, and also deal with the times it won't OHKO foes. It helps that Stealth Rock isn't a guarantee here! Life Orb will still have its uses though, especially on sets that spam U-turn. Funnily enough, I think Focus Sash abusers itself will be a big problem for Pheromosa, since Sash is harder to squash in 3v3.

While this was mostly for Battle Spot Singles, I do feel the need to bring up the other two major battle spot metagames: Doubles and VGC. I can't help but be very skeptical about the idea of using Pheromosa there. In my past experiences with doubles metagames, not even stuff like Deoxys-A dealt well with doubles due to bulky offense pretty much smashing it and having no good spread moves. Pheromosa seems to be in a similar spot, so I imagine it won't be common in Battle Spot Doubles or VGC. I guess it could abuse Speed Swap as a gimmick which could be neat, but I'm not sure that's worth using Pheromosa for. I would like to be proven wrong though!

 

[Jaguar360]

I'll be trying this Rapid Spin set on one of my teams:

Phermosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ghost

HP Ghost for spinblockers like Aegislash of course since it has really poor ways to hit ghosts. It's really insane for this thing to be one point ahead of Mega Alakazam and Aerodactyl in speed lol.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Is there a hidden power Pheromosa would want to use? U-Turn/Poison Jab/High Jump Kick/Ice Beam seems like it covers almost everything it would really want to cover. Hidden Power Fire for Scizor? Electric for Gyarados? Ghost or Dark feel so niche to me.

 

[SJCrew]

There's really no understating how much of a god Aegislash is. Unless it's banned before Pheromosa is, you can't afford to have one of your staple offensive Pokemon be a free turn for it. Being able to get rid of Aegislash quicker with HP Dark/Ghost/Fire is the one of the main perks I can see for a specially-based offensive set.

EDIT: 252+ SpA Life Orb Abomasnow (with Pheromosa's Sp. Att) Hidden Power Dark vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 107-127 (33 - 39.1%)

Nevermind. Just lay some Spikes and U-Turn all day.

EDIT 2: Never had an edit get ninja'd before.

 

[Karxrida]

Pheromosa can at least lure out Aegislash with the threat of HJK and U-turn to one of the sword's several checks instead.

I'd actually consider running Lefties on Pheromosa to mitigate SR damage, because this might be another Genesect situation where you find yourself spamming U-turn with it.

 

[jacksoras]

U-turn is what makes Pheremosa (potentially) broken. The ability to simply U-turn on incoming counters (very few of them exist) and go to your own counter completely ruins your opposition's momentum.