All Gens Past Gens Research Thread

[doipy hooves]

This is because the quick claw check is based on a random number that only changes in between turns, so if one Quick Claw on the field succeeds then all of them will.

 

[Marty]

yes hello. with the help of SuperEpicAmpharos and zeefable i am here to report a new finding in adv doubles mechanics.

there is a bug in which, when both of your pokemon are holding quick claw, the claw proc will affect both of the mons.

Nice find! Seems like the random number they use to check against the Quick Claw activation chance is actually just shared between every Pokemon holding Quick Claw at any given time.

See https://github.com/pret/pokeemerald...5caf709de426bf5/src/battle_main.c#L4517-L4670
and more specifically the top and bottom lines here: https://github.com/pret/pokeemerald...5caf709de426bf5/src/battle_main.c#L4575-L4609

This random number is only re-rolled when a battle starts, right before the first turn, and at the end of each turn. So whenever they are checking Speed interactions between any two active Pokemon, this number is the same for all of them. Notably, Quick Claw sets your Speed to the max value, which also means anything holding Quick Claw Speed ties everything else holding Quick Claw when it activates, for more RNG fun. This is some questionable design choice.
Edit: It's actually been on poccil's site for at least 12 years so not that new!

Quick Claw has this same behaviour in Gen 2 as well. Only in Gen 4 is it finally an independent chance for each activation, and they make a point to compare Speeds if two or more Pokemon activated either it or Custap Berry.

 

[eden]

I was playing DPP on Showdown, and I selected Healing Wish the turn my opponent Phazed me, which resulted in the mon I sent out being healed, as well as the one phazed in. Can anyone verify if this is the correct behavior?

did anyone verify this?

 

[johnnyg2]

Looks like no, if it was an issue it was fixed. Don't think it works that way on cart either, but i dont have access to that rn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1345161993-m2a93gru6cvulrpyhsa6w3mp1mfezjupw

 

[eden]

thanks for confirmation!

 

[xzern]

hello and welcome to my post. SuperEpicAmpharos asked me to test a gen 3 mechanic. currently on showdown, if you kill a mon that has used destiny bond last turn with pursuit as it switches out, destiny bond does not proc. here is a replay of how showdown currently processes it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1351410899

after testing this on cart, this does not seem to be the case.

i tested this mechanic with a mon that would either underspeed or outspeed the pursuiter. on cart, it seems that destiny bond will still activate on the mon using pursuit even if we switch out. im going to also test this in dpp, in the future..

 

[zee]

tested this in BW2 at SuperEpicAmpharos's request, the pursuit user does not faint in this gen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1399890458399105028

 

[SEA]

I decided to test the Pursuit + Destiny Bond interaction on cartridge and on PS in GSC. Here's what happens when the Destiny Bond Pokemon is faster than the opponent, and here's what happens when the Destiny Bond Pokemon is slower than the opponent.
Warning, these are quite loud, be careful with your sound.
Basically, if the Destiny Bond user is slower than the Pokemon using Pursuit, the Pokemon using Pursuit will faint. However, if the Destiny Bond user is faster than the Pokemon using Pursuit, the Pokemon using Pursuit will NOT faint. However, on PS, the Pokemon using Pursuit will not faint under either circumstance.

 

[SEA]

Going to double post here. I decided to test this in DPP/HGSS as well, and here were my findings. I tested this in Platinum on an emulator, although I had somebody test it in HGSS on the side, which they confirmed to work identically. If you want to check if it works differently in link battles, perhaps that's worth a shot.

So, much like in ADV, in DPP, if a Pokemon uses Destiny Bond, switches out and dies to Pursuit, no matter the speed of the Destiny Bond user, the Pokemon using Pursuit will faint.

This does not line up with the mechanics on PS currently, which is that the Pursuit user will not faint no matter what.

 

[xzern]

hello xzern fans. i know you have all been waiting for the next big discovery in adv doubles mechanics. the wait is finally over.

redirection is a vital facet of doubles. in gen 3, only a select few are able to learn the coveted move, follow me. the situation we are investigating today is what happens when a redirector faints to the first attack it receives. in modern games, this is handled by having its partner tank the second attack, since that partner becomes the only mon on the field. this is also how showdown currently processes this situation. but in adv... the replacement for a fainted mon is sent out before the turn actually ends. so whats the truth??

as you can see in our modified pokemon emerald; even after togetic faints, it posthumously redirects the oncoming second attack, brutally martyring calvin's zigzagoon in the process. therefore, we can make the conclusion that in adv doubles, follow me will affect the entire slot that it is used on for the entire turn, as long as the battle is still a 2v2. i rest my case.

 

[Siglut]

hey, recently noticed a change in the end-of-turn mechanics in ADV on pokemon showdown.

old mechanic

new mechanic

and couldn't find any discussion on this in my 2 minutes of searching, just wanted to know if this has been tested because how it worked before makes more intuitive sense to me. It seems pretty rare that this would be impactful to an actual game.

scenario but tbf we don't know if leech seed activates the same way as tox so this might also be wrong

vapicuno — Today at 7:29 PM
ok, it could actually affect something concretely



[7:30 PM]
for example, if two mons are both seeded and tox'd



[7:30 PM]
faster mon needs seed and tox to die but slower mon only needs seed to die(edited)

Siglut — Today at 7:30 PM
yeah it totally could

@UD
it is as good as any other loom set

Jester — Today at 7:30 PM
why do you throw so much shade at zoomer mons

Siglut — Today at 7:30 PM
I think that must have been changed or something

UD — Today at 7:30 PM

Siglut — Today at 7:30 PM
because I swear it didn't use to work like that

UD — Today at 7:30 PM
Subpunch was the old standard!

vapicuno — Today at 7:30 PM
if the faster mon gets all effects applied first it dies first

 

[Marty]

hey, recently noticed a change in the end-of-turn mechanics in ADV on pokemon showdown.

Good eye! This was changed almost two months ago when DaWoblefet updated end of turn effects for Gens 5-8. I spent a few days checking Gens 2-4 and updated them at the same time so there wouldn't be any regressions: https://git.io/Jc6bM

and couldn't find any discussion on this in my 2 minutes of searching, just wanted to know if this has been tested because how it worked before makes more intuitive sense to me. It seems pretty rare that this would be impactful to an actual game.

You're right that it's intuitive since almost every effect in the game for the last 10 years has been done for the faster Pokemon first then the slower one immediately after, before moving on to the next effect in the list. A commonly seen exception is Grassy Terrain and Leftovers both happening for a faster Pokemon before a slower one. In Gens 3 and 4 exceptions like that were actually the majority of end of turn effects, though.

(Each effect in these lists is done from fastest Pokemon to slowest, except for the lists in the hide tags.)

Gen 3

REFLECT
LIGHTSCREEN
MIST
SAFEGUARD
WISH
RAIN
SANDSTORM
SUN
HAIL

Fastest Pokemon does all of these before the next Pokemon

INGRAIN
RAINDISH/SHEDSKIN/SPEEDBOOST/TRUANT
half HP items, Leppa, White Herb, Leftovers, confusion Berries, pinch Berries, status Berries, Mental Herb
LEECHSEED
POISON
TOXIC
BURN
NIGHTMARE
CURSE
BINDING
UPROAR
THRASH
DISABLE
ENCORE
LOCKON
CHARGE
TAUNT
YAWN
White Herb, status Berries, Mental Herb

FUTURESIGHT
PERISHSONG


Gen 4

REFLECT
LIGHTSCREEN
MIST
SAFEGUARD
TAILWIND
LUCKYCHANT
WISH
RAINDANCE/DRYSKIN/RAINDISH/HYDRATION
SANDSTORM
SUNNYDAY
HAIL/ICEBODY
FOG
GRAVITY

Fastest Pokemon does all of these before the next Pokemon

INGRAIN
AQUARING
SPEEDBOOST/SHEDSKIN/TRUANT
LEFTOVERS/BLACKSLUDGE
LEECHSEED
POISON
TOXIC
BURN
NIGHTMARE
CURSE
BINDING
BADDREAMS
UPROAR
THRASH
DISABLE
ENCORE
LOCKON
CHARGE
TAUNT
MAGNETRISE
HEALBLOCK
EMBARGO
YAWN
TOXICORB/FLAMEORB/STICKYBARB

FUTURESIGHT
PERISHSONG
TRICKROOM


I also implemented everything else mentioned on this current page of the thread at some point. Thanks for all the reports and testing!

Gen 2-3 Quick Claw stuff
Gen 4 Healing Wish thing
Gen 2-4 Destiny Bond and Pursuit shenanigans
Gen 3 Follow Me persistence

 

[SEA]

Hello hello, I have more gen 3 mechanics, this time regarding Beat Up and counter.

On PS currently, you can use Counter on Beat Up. However, on cartridge, it is not possible to Counter Beat Up. Whether or not this mechanic is in GSC, I will be looking into shortly.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I just saw this and wondered if there was any details that would explain this further. I dunno if this is some sort of accidental speed overide or an over/underflow somewhere but thought it was interesting enough to post regardless.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I just saw this and wondered if there was any details that would explain this further. I dunno if this is some sort of accidental speed overide or an over/underflow somewhere but thought it was interesting enough to post regardless.

I can answer this! Someone actually told me about this mechanic a while back when we were getting it implemented on PS.

In Stadium 2, somewhat similar to RBY, when a Speed buff or debuff is applied, it ends up ignoring the paralysis Speed drop during stat recalculation. So here, Aerodactyl was at default -1 Speed, letting it outrun Blissey and Flareon (177 VS 157/113). It's interesting, since Stadium 1 fixed this bug, so they ended up...un-fixing it here? Strange.

 

[lighthouse64]

Hi, I'm wondering what happens to metronome boosts in gen 6/7 if you use secret power/nature power in one terrain and then have it change terrain midway through. Will you lose the boosts or no?

 

[DaWoblefet]

Weird interaction with Substitute and Seismic Toss in RBY: a level 50 Seismic Toss fails to break a 50 HP Substitute. Similarly, two level 25 Seismic Toss fail to break a 50 HP Substitute. Not sure if this is SToss-specific or if Substitutes are just extra durable and can survive on 0 HP or something in Yellow? Nothing obvious stands out to me from Yellow disassembly as to why it might do that.

For testing regular moves, you could engineer a setup where a 1/16 min damage roll that would ordinarily do the full Substitute damage, and all 15 other damage rolls will break the Substitute for sure. If Substitute ever remains after that attack, you know it's not something wonky with Seismic Toss or something.

EDIT: Marty has pointed out to me this is known behavior.

 

[Rezzo]

Reposting about an unaddressed GSC mechanic to this thread in the hopes that it catches the right eyes, as it seems not to have in the GSC subforum:

It's come to my attention that there is a documented battle desync glitch on GS & C cartridges caused by the move Beat Up. You can see Crystal_ demonstrate the glitch in this video. To summarise, it is possible to enter a gamestate where Beat Up attacks a different number of times on both players' sides, causing the battle to fall away from an identical state for both players.

Currently Gen 2 has no desync clause and Beat Up is not banned from competitive play. I presume this is something that should be addressed to respect in-game accuracy, so I thought I'd bring some light to this as it seems to have never been directly discussed on Smogon before.

 

[Oatmon]

In Heart Gold and Soul Silver, Pikachu can be given the move "Fly" using the pokewalker.

For some reason, this isn't implemented on Showdown. Is it because the local/wifi battles wont allow it to have this move, or is it an oversight?

Searching the Smogon forums, there appear to be no posts mentioning this, and a few suggesting that DPP Pikachu cannot learn fly since to transfer it across from an earlier gen, you have to delete the HM's, and fly is a HM (there is also a popup on the teambuilder). This despite the ability to get it natively.

Main reference: https://www.serebii.net/heartgoldsoulsilver/pokewalker-area.shtml#yellowforest . It is also easy to find material from 2010 where people obtain Fly Pikachu, in case anyone is wondering about a mistake on Serebii.

Surf w/o a hardy nature is also missing.

 

[Murm]

Hey I have a question about GSC Donphan and Encore. Donphan got access to Encore through a Japanese event. Its not the only mon to be given moves it normally doesn't already have through events, stuff like Lovely Kiss Snorlax and Petal Dance Wigglytuff are good examples of other mons. However, Encore Donphan is the only mon that I could find that cannot use a move due to it being a Japanese only event, and PS being based on international play. Every other event seems to be usable, most likely just because the move was also given away in other places. I was just wondering if anything could/would ever be done about this, if not that's fine I just figured I'd bring it up. Thank you!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Hey I have a question about GSC Donphan and Encore. Donphan got access to Encore through a Japanese event. Its not the only mon to be given moves it normally doesn't already have through events, stuff like Lovely Kiss Snorlax and Petal Dance Wigglytuff are good examples of other mons. However, Encore Donphan is the only mon that I could find that cannot use a move due to it being a Japanese only event, and PS being based on international play. Every other event seems to be usable, most likely just because the move was also given away in other places. I was just wondering if anything could/would ever be done about this, if not that's fine I just figured I'd bring it up. Thank you!

I don't know how Stadium 2 plays into this, but I do know that trying to connect a Japanese Gen 2 cartridge with a non-Japanese Gen 2 cartridge crashes both cartridges.

 

[Anna says hi]

Earlier today in the Battle Tree discord server, Actaeon discovered an interesting bug with destiny bond mechanics.

This bug has only been confirmed in ADV. No idea how it works in later gens, or if it works at all.

e: this also happens with attack raises if you're already at +6

 

[cherryb0ng]

Reposting about an unaddressed GSC mechanic to this thread in the hopes that it catches the right eyes, as it seems not to have in the GSC subforum:

Does an entirely uncompetitive move warrant being addressed at all? The maxed out EVs make it so that even with a berserk gene, the damage inflicted isn't very high. I tested this once and can't remember the results but I do remember my own disappointment.

 

[Rezzo]

Does an entirely uncompetitive move warrant being addressed at all? The maxed out EVs make it so that even with a berserk gene, the damage inflicted isn't very high. I tested this once and can't remember the results but I do remember my own disappointment.

Tiering Policy states in Assumption 1 that Smogon formats should adhere as close as possible to cart mechanics. So even though the move is terrible and useless, it conflicts with the purpose of the battle sim.

In fact, the move being entirely uncompetitive indicates that banning it from gen 2 would be a swift and painless task (unless I'm forgetting about some edge case or some other unforseen consequence). A relief, I'm sure, for anybody who's ever seen even a small part of the back-and-forth discussions that RBY players have had in the past regarding Counter (a competitively viable move) and Psywave (a move in the same boat as Beat Up).

 

[bwburke94]

I feel it better for Gen 2 to add a desync clause to cover any future desyncs, despite the only current desync being on an unviable move. But that's not the point of this thread.