Oh I didn't think that, is true XD many thanks
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Metagame Partners in Crime
- Thread starter yuki
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These Pokemon are not relevant to the metagame. None of them are good except for having the ability cloud nine. Even if that is the case, there is better ways to answer weather without bringing an otherwise useless poke.
Viability Rankings are now up!
We hope these are a good starting point for people looking for a way into the meta, and we hope that if you have anything you want to add, change or nominate that you'll let us know in the thread. The more opinions we have, the more informed our decisions can be.
We hope these are a good starting point for people looking for a way into the meta, and we hope that if you have anything you want to add, change or nominate that you'll let us know in the thread. The more opinions we have, the more informed our decisions can be.
Since someone else showed their rain team, here's mine:
This has gone through several iterations; previously, I had Lucario and then Corviknight instead of Doublade, both to negate Intimidate spam. The concept is that it allows me to spam spread moves without worrying about damaging my teammates; Raichu has Discharge and Lightning Rod, Vaporeon has Surf and Water Absorb, and the other Pokémon with ally-hitting moves have Protect. This was inspired by a DOU rain team I had in Gen 7 that I sadly accidentally deleted, where Pelipper, Raichu, and Armaldo served me well. That last one is an odd pick, I know, but it has coverage you don't normally see on rain teams. Goodra is the weak link.
This has gone through several iterations; previously, I had Lucario and then Corviknight instead of Doublade, both to negate Intimidate spam. The concept is that it allows me to spam spread moves without worrying about damaging my teammates; Raichu has Discharge and Lightning Rod, Vaporeon has Surf and Water Absorb, and the other Pokémon with ally-hitting moves have Protect. This was inspired by a DOU rain team I had in Gen 7 that I sadly accidentally deleted, where Pelipper, Raichu, and Armaldo served me well. That last one is an odd pick, I know, but it has coverage you don't normally see on rain teams. Goodra is the weak link.
Yeah so about that not having a sleep clause.
Venusaur and amoongus are not the only users of spore and sleep powder. Butterfree exists and possess both quiver dance and tinted lens/compound eyes as well.
Tornadus is no slouch in the sp.atk department. They can put you right back to sleep.
Tapu Terrain only prevents sleep and does not cure it, nor does it last indefinitely. Also, Tapu Fini and Koko are primarily special attackers. And what does quiver dance do? (Between you and me, if anything it's only Koko that's used, if a tapu is even brought over just, you know, bringing a regieleki to handle all you electric related issues. Haven't seen a single fini.)
Because there is no sleep clause, your entire team would need safety goggles if you weren't mono grass.
Isn't that kind of the reason why both Darkrai/Smeargle got nerfed to oblivion? Highly accurate guaranteed sleep on two pokemon at once?
The game mode kinda needs you to have 2 pokemon to do things and you kinda can't do that if they can sleep/kill the new things that come in before said things can do anything.
Dark types and grass type are immune to prankster spore and sleep powder. Yes. But wanna know what they aren't immune to? 2 quiver danced up pokemon that have access to bug buzz and hurricane. They're quite effective as a matter of fact, super effective you could say.
But wait, steel resists both bug and flying (if Butterfree isn't tinted lens). :/ Guess what move tornadus gets? Heatwave :0
Heatran resists everything? Too bad they can just sleep and ignore the heatran.
Incineroar is fire type type? Oooo sorry, it's also dark type and your opponent can used up to 8 moves to counter play while you are stuck using one pokemon at a time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Guess what I'm trying to say is ... If you're not going to add a sleep clause, then atleast get rid of that butterfly (≖_≖ ).
As for magic bounce? I don't think I need to mention why that isn't viable against sleep, for the same reason it wasn't mentioned in the prior sleep related post. Fragile, psychic type, Pokemon. Or in hatterene case. Not to mention you actually have to switch them in and hope the opponent didn't decide to attack you this turn and that your other pokemon is awake or has been chosen to be killed.
No sleep clause + Prankster Butterfree is just frozen with extra steps.
One more thing. Venusaur wrecks opposing grass and steel type (except for skarm and corv) and can ensure a speed advantage with chlorophyll.
... No but seriously add sleep clause or remove the butterfly (≖_≖ )
(Ps: Compound Eyes is essentially "Gravity" as a passive ability, hence hurricane being one of Butterfree's most reliable moves.)
(Pss: even if butterfree goes, I'm still probably going to keep try to get the sleep clause added back sometime later)
Venusaur and amoongus are not the only users of spore and sleep powder. Butterfree exists and possess both quiver dance and tinted lens/compound eyes as well.
Tornadus is no slouch in the sp.atk department. They can put you right back to sleep.
Tapu Terrain only prevents sleep and does not cure it, nor does it last indefinitely. Also, Tapu Fini and Koko are primarily special attackers. And what does quiver dance do? (Between you and me, if anything it's only Koko that's used, if a tapu is even brought over just, you know, bringing a regieleki to handle all you electric related issues. Haven't seen a single fini.)
Because there is no sleep clause, your entire team would need safety goggles if you weren't mono grass.
Isn't that kind of the reason why both Darkrai/Smeargle got nerfed to oblivion? Highly accurate guaranteed sleep on two pokemon at once?
The game mode kinda needs you to have 2 pokemon to do things and you kinda can't do that if they can sleep/kill the new things that come in before said things can do anything.
Dark types and grass type are immune to prankster spore and sleep powder. Yes. But wanna know what they aren't immune to? 2 quiver danced up pokemon that have access to bug buzz and hurricane. They're quite effective as a matter of fact, super effective you could say.
But wait, steel resists both bug and flying (if Butterfree isn't tinted lens). :/ Guess what move tornadus gets? Heatwave :0
Heatran resists everything? Too bad they can just sleep and ignore the heatran.
Incineroar is fire type type? Oooo sorry, it's also dark type and your opponent can used up to 8 moves to counter play while you are stuck using one pokemon at a time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Guess what I'm trying to say is ... If you're not going to add a sleep clause, then atleast get rid of that butterfly (≖_≖ ).
As for magic bounce? I don't think I need to mention why that isn't viable against sleep, for the same reason it wasn't mentioned in the prior sleep related post. Fragile, psychic type, Pokemon. Or in hatterene case. Not to mention you actually have to switch them in and hope the opponent didn't decide to attack you this turn and that your other pokemon is awake or has been chosen to be killed.
No sleep clause + Prankster Butterfree is just frozen with extra steps.
One more thing. Venusaur wrecks opposing grass and steel type (except for skarm and corv) and can ensure a speed advantage with chlorophyll.
... No but seriously add sleep clause or remove the butterfly (≖_≖ )
(Ps: Compound Eyes is essentially "Gravity" as a passive ability, hence hurricane being one of Butterfree's most reliable moves.)
(Pss: even if butterfree goes, I'm still probably going to keep try to get the sleep clause added back sometime later)
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Hey! The VR overall looks good but I shall discuss my personal thoughts on what I think should rise/drop.
Both D --> C
Crobat is one of the best speed control options in the tier, acting as a blazing fast flinch and intimidate immune support which can control the momentum on your side. It's a very good lead as well, as it has taunt for shutting down attempted Trick Room/Hazards/Other Taunt users. Of course, it has some problems; it's offensive typing isn't great nor its strength but in reality that is overshadowed by Crobat's other huge upsides and I think it deserves a rise. Toxtricity on the other hand is an absolute nuke with Plus/Minus or Punk Rock depending on the team chosen. This thing hits disgustingly hard and enables teammates to do the same. Has a lot of good moves to give as well such as Boomburst, Overdrive, and Magnetic Flux(for lowkey) or Shift Gear(for normal).
All C --> Higher
I personally don't see these as good as B rank mons just yet but I feel they all are much better and more consistent than the other Pokémon in C. Latias and Latios are somewhat similar, they have annoying support moves in Ally Switch and Tailwind whilst using their own tailwind to fire off attacks, Latias is usually the bulkier choice and Latios is the more offensively inclined choice, both pair really well with staples such as Heatran and Incineroar which enjoy being given Levitate. Landorus-T is a really simple intimidate user but performs solidly every game, providing hazards and attack drops consistently. Clefairy is the only viable Friend Guard donor and the ability is amazing, alongside a wide support and offensive movepull makes this pokemon a great donor.
Both C --> D
These mons honestly don't do that much. Neutralizing Gas is neat for stopping certain strategies but they can feel really inconsistent. Also lacks good support moves to share but at least they have a solid special movepull.
Really happy to see this metagame flourish! It truly deserves it.
Both D --> CCrobat is one of the best speed control options in the tier, acting as a blazing fast flinch and intimidate immune support which can control the momentum on your side. It's a very good lead as well, as it has taunt for shutting down attempted Trick Room/Hazards/Other Taunt users. Of course, it has some problems; it's offensive typing isn't great nor its strength but in reality that is overshadowed by Crobat's other huge upsides and I think it deserves a rise. Toxtricity on the other hand is an absolute nuke with Plus/Minus or Punk Rock depending on the team chosen. This thing hits disgustingly hard and enables teammates to do the same. Has a lot of good moves to give as well such as Boomburst, Overdrive, and Magnetic Flux(for lowkey) or Shift Gear(for normal).
All C --> HigherI personally don't see these as good as B rank mons just yet but I feel they all are much better and more consistent than the other Pokémon in C. Latias and Latios are somewhat similar, they have annoying support moves in Ally Switch and Tailwind whilst using their own tailwind to fire off attacks, Latias is usually the bulkier choice and Latios is the more offensively inclined choice, both pair really well with staples such as Heatran and Incineroar which enjoy being given Levitate. Landorus-T is a really simple intimidate user but performs solidly every game, providing hazards and attack drops consistently. Clefairy is the only viable Friend Guard donor and the ability is amazing, alongside a wide support and offensive movepull makes this pokemon a great donor.
Both C --> DThese mons honestly don't do that much. Neutralizing Gas is neat for stopping certain strategies but they can feel really inconsistent. Also lacks good support moves to share but at least they have a solid special movepull.
Really happy to see this metagame flourish! It truly deserves it.
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B -> AVictini seems a good distance above everything else in the B rank. It's current position in the same rank as Lurantis would imply that it's only there for it's niche in contrary teams but it offers so much more to it's team than the likes of Lurantis. V-Create and Bolt Strike obviously insane coverage for any physical attacker and OTR sets are very very slept on. It also can theoretically run a very good special set although I've honestly yet to try this besides occasionally slapping expanding force on OTR sets.
B -> AMew's versatility lends it a place on too many teams for it not to be A rank IMO. It's mandatory on hazardstack and provides insane role compression on basically whatever team it's on.
C -> BThundurus is incredibly hard to play around from team preview, especially when it's not immediately obvious whether it's defiant or prankster - eg against prankster you'll want to send in your incineroar but if it's defiant your incineroar just gets fucked. It's movepool gives it insane utility options, most notably pivoting moves and knock off. It will almost never find itself feeling like deadweight (unless it's like prankster into either a hatterene or a chansey)
UR -> D/CGarchomp seems relatively underexplored. Sand veil strats are evil and it possesses a relatively ok movepool with tools such as breaking swipe and swords dance. With substitute you can just about cheese your way through anything slower. Synergises really well with the likes of excadrill who provide an immediate threat and allow garchomp to get behind a sub.
agree with pretty much everything in this post except that I don't feel Landorus T should rise. Suffers severely from 4mss even in a metagame where pokemon have 8 moveslots. Most of the physical attackers it wants to switch into do a decent chunk that it can't reliably heal off without team support - even at -2. Unlike incineroar it doesn't have an elite defensive typing that lands it a niche vs basically any spam team, this being further exemplified by just how hard it loses to Kyub. It can be good with team support but it requires too much of this for it to be anywhere above the C rank IMO.
I personally don't see these as good as B rank mons just yet but I feel they all are much better and more consistent than the other Pokémon in C. Latias and Latios are somewhat similar, they have annoying support moves in Ally Switch and Tailwind whilst using their own tailwind to fire off attacks, Latias is usually the bulkier choice and Latios is the more offensively inclined choice, both pair really well with staples such as Heatran and Incineroar which enjoy being given Levitate. Landorus-T is a really simple intimidate user but performs solidly every game, providing hazards and attack drops consistently. Clefairy is the only viable Friend Guard donor and the ability is amazing, alongside a wide support and offensive movepull makes this pokemon a great donor.
I was trying to make the most op thing i could think of in this metagame, how about a core of Melmetal+Perrserker+Bronzong/Melmetal
I made a quick pokepaste of a set with this. https://pokepast.es/c8a5a2b60002760d
Edit:Oops i forgot evs for bronzong
I made a quick pokepaste of a set with this. https://pokepast.es/c8a5a2b60002760d
Edit:Oops i forgot evs for bronzong
Just a heads up, Melmetal is illegal - we do have Perrserker in a current sample if you did want a starting point though!
I did not see that in the banlist lol
I don’t think that sleep is overpowered. But I don’t think that it’s healthy.
Being forced to run Tapu Fini/Koko or use multiple sets of safety goggles places several unnecessary restrictions on teambuilding that aren’t necessarily obvious to a new player approaching the metagame for the first time. I see several sets of safety goggles being used in most of the sample teams to play around sleep.
Safety Goggles should not be mandatory to play around sleep on your sweeping pokemon that would rather be using a different item. If sleep were not a problem in a vacuum then the Gravity Sleep clause would not be in effect. The council is judging sleep based on the merits of the two pokemon that abuse it instead of the uncompetitiveness of the mechanic in general, which I feel is incorrect given that, in this format, the existence of sleep on a team enables any pokemon to use it. It isn’t just an Amoongus or Venusaur issue. This is an overwhelming mechanic that is discouraging new players from playing the format and will hurt you in the long run if you allow it to exist.
Edit: changed a word to make my point more clear
Being forced to run Tapu Fini/Koko or use multiple sets of safety goggles places several unnecessary restrictions on teambuilding that aren’t necessarily obvious to a new player approaching the metagame for the first time. I see several sets of safety goggles being used in most of the sample teams to play around sleep.
Safety Goggles should not be mandatory to play around sleep on your sweeping pokemon that would rather be using a different item. If sleep were not a problem in a vacuum then the Gravity Sleep clause would not be in effect. The council is judging sleep based on the merits of the two pokemon that abuse it instead of the uncompetitiveness of the mechanic in general, which I feel is incorrect given that, in this format, the existence of sleep on a team enables any pokemon to use it. It isn’t just an Amoongus or Venusaur issue. This is an overwhelming mechanic that is discouraging new players from playing the format and will hurt you in the long run if you allow it to exist.
Edit: changed a word to make my point more clear
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Personally, sleep has not been a large problem, nor do I view it as unhealthy, at least for me. Most of the sleep users are quite easy to play around with common moves/abilities such as Fake Out, Electric Surge, Misty Surge, and Magic Bounce, which is enough counterplay to where i believe Safety Goggles are not super important on a wide variety of teams.
To avoid this being a one-liner, I shall give more thoughts on VR rises/drops, yay!!
D --> HigherAs sleep becomes more prevalent in the metagame Hatterene has been preforming better. Completely destroys prankster sleep leads and is a great OTR mon. Personally it's a bit fishy making it not as high as C to me quite yet but I feel it deserves a rise as the metagame is better for it atm
now for the real bombshell
UR --> DFeral Amalgamation (Noivern) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Defog
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Defog
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
There's two other mons that I feel could potential in the metagame, with one already being mentioned and the other one is somewhat unexplored
Seems interesting, as it has Sleep Powder and Rage Powder alongside Compound Eyes and Tailwind or Quiver Dance for a very interesting lead, although it seems very prone to Fake Out or spread moves. Tinted Lens seems okay but I personally see Compound Eyes as the better choice here.
Could be fun as an inner focus trick room setter with Instruct, will probably test this dude out on Perrserker Fullroom.
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You can increase your evasion by using Contrary + Defog.
Case and point: this match
Also Simple Beam exists.
Case and point: this match
Also Simple Beam exists.
anybody wanna give feedback on this team
https://pokepast.es/b89de52b34b0369f
https://pokepast.es/b89de52b34b0369f
As a big VGC guy I love PiC, I think it's one of the best other metas in Competitive Pokémon. So naturally when I saw it was back I got very excited, and looked at this thread for some ideas, and saw Instruct's TerraCAT, and decided to build a team around it. I just hit top 50 today, primarily using this team, so I'm gonna share that team now!
For starters if you want the paste click here.
The main duo consisting of Terrakion and Alolan Persian, which abuses Terrakion's Justified ability alongside Persian's Rattled ability to give Terrakion a +6 in both attack and speed on turn 1. Terrakion has the usual Rock Slide/Close Combat STAB pairing, as well as Protect so those critical turns where it needs to not take any damage, and Quick Guard to block opposing Fake Outs as well as slightly more niche cases like Grassy Glides or the like.
Persian meanwhile has Beat Up, to enable the core strategy, as well as Fake Out (which shouldn't need explaining) as well as Taunt to shut down setup teams that rely on Cosmic Power or Calm Mind strategies as well as Tailwind users and Follow Me users that could otherwise block or prevent the Beat Up strategy. Finally I also gave it Feint; this was initially Parting Shot, which was of course very useful, but I found Feint more useful for preventing others from spamming Protect and keeping offensive pressure up, as it ensures that at least one opposing Pokemon per turn is taking a +6 Rock Slide. It also has some edge case uses such as Allowing Terrakion to outspeed Extremespeed spam and potentially knock out a Pokémon wishing to abuse such strategies.
The key to a good team in my opinion is options, especially in a doubles meta, and so I wanted a secondary mode to abuse, and I landed on Psyspam with Tapu Lele and Articuno-G. With Articuno-G granting Expanding Force to Tapu Lele, Lele can throw off a powerful Spread move in Psychic Terrain, and with Competitive this can get very dangerous very quickly, especialy with Pokemon like Incineroar and Landorus-T being useful in this meta.
The other thing I enjoy about both of these Pokémon is how they enable the TerraCAT core, with Lele granting Psychic Terrain to stop Terrakion from dying to Priority Moves (Technician teams with Scizor are the biggest example), and Articuno-G having the coveted Imprison + Trick Room combo to stop TR teams from functioning and keeping the advantage on this fast team.
Other things to mention are Moonblast on Lele, which in addition to being a secondary STAB for Lele grants a useful coverage move to Articuno, Hurricane on Articuno, which is of course secondary STAB but also is very nice in the Rain matchup, Protect on Lele spreading more protect around the team, and Stored Power, which probably could be another move but that I like as it allows Lele to also use Imprison to block both Protects but also Stored Power teams (which I have encountered a couple of).
The next Pokémon I wanted was a Pokémon that would give Terrakion a Ground move for coverage reasons, whilst also allowing for a Pokémon to counter other teams. Intimidate is so valuable in PiC, as many teams use powerful physical attackers and power them up even further than usual, and -2 to their attacks is very useful in managing that pressure. The Choice Scarf is a more recent addition, as it allows the team to outspeed some of the faster teams that TerraCAT cannot outpace until Terrakion is set up.
As for the moves, Protect may seem strange on a Choice-locked set, but I actually stand by it, as I feel that Landorus is more of a supportive Pokémon and doesn't really need all of its moves; Protect is mostly useful here as it allows some of the other Pokémon on this team, that do not have a Protect of their own, that have that option if needed. The rest of the moveset is fairly standard, with Earthquake as the STAB move, U-turn for pivoting, and Knock Off to punish teams that rely on items whilst also giving a solid coverage move.
The final Pokémon on this team is Metagross. I like Metagross a lot, as with Clear Body it is immune to Icy Wind and Electroweb, as well as Intimidate, allowing it to keep sweeping even when the opponent has their own Intimidate spam option, and grant that same benefit to Terrakion if it sits alongside it. With Weakness Policy it is also able to be a secondary Pokémon for Persian to beat up, as even though a +2 attack is not as great as a +6, it is still very scary, especially when you are +6. Metagross is also nice as it can be used fairly effectively alongside Tapu Lele, abusing Psychic Terrain with STAB Zen Headbutt to be the physical Psyspam in case the opponent has a lot of special walls.
Psych Up is here to allow Metagross to come in and copy Terrakion's lovely boosts, allowing the team to have two powerful sweepers on the field at the same time, at which point things get very difficult to deal with. The rest are fairly standard moves on Metagross, with Dual STAB moves and Earthquake for coverage.
For starters if you want the paste click here.
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Quick Guard
Persian-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rattled
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Beat Up
- Taunt
- Feint
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Quick Guard
Persian-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rattled
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Beat Up
- Taunt
- Feint
Persian meanwhile has Beat Up, to enable the core strategy, as well as Fake Out (which shouldn't need explaining) as well as Taunt to shut down setup teams that rely on Cosmic Power or Calm Mind strategies as well as Tailwind users and Follow Me users that could otherwise block or prevent the Beat Up strategy. Finally I also gave it Feint; this was initially Parting Shot, which was of course very useful, but I found Feint more useful for preventing others from spamming Protect and keeping offensive pressure up, as it ensures that at least one opposing Pokemon per turn is taking a +6 Rock Slide. It also has some edge case uses such as Allowing Terrakion to outspeed Extremespeed spam and potentially knock out a Pokémon wishing to abuse such strategies.
Tapu Lele @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Stored Power
- Protect
Articuno-Galar @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Imprison
- Trick Room
- Hurricane
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Stored Power
- Protect
Articuno-Galar @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Imprison
- Trick Room
- Hurricane
The other thing I enjoy about both of these Pokémon is how they enable the TerraCAT core, with Lele granting Psychic Terrain to stop Terrakion from dying to Priority Moves (Technician teams with Scizor are the biggest example), and Articuno-G having the coveted Imprison + Trick Room combo to stop TR teams from functioning and keeping the advantage on this fast team.
Other things to mention are Moonblast on Lele, which in addition to being a secondary STAB for Lele grants a useful coverage move to Articuno, Hurricane on Articuno, which is of course secondary STAB but also is very nice in the Rain matchup, Protect on Lele spreading more protect around the team, and Stored Power, which probably could be another move but that I like as it allows Lele to also use Imprison to block both Protects but also Stored Power teams (which I have encountered a couple of).
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Protect
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Protect
As for the moves, Protect may seem strange on a Choice-locked set, but I actually stand by it, as I feel that Landorus is more of a supportive Pokémon and doesn't really need all of its moves; Protect is mostly useful here as it allows some of the other Pokémon on this team, that do not have a Protect of their own, that have that option if needed. The rest of the moveset is fairly standard, with Earthquake as the STAB move, U-turn for pivoting, and Knock Off to punish teams that rely on items whilst also giving a solid coverage move.
Metagross @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Psych Up
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Psych Up
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
Psych Up is here to allow Metagross to come in and copy Terrakion's lovely boosts, allowing the team to have two powerful sweepers on the field at the same time, at which point things get very difficult to deal with. The rest are fairly standard moves on Metagross, with Dual STAB moves and Earthquake for coverage.
Sharing a team that got me top 5 on ladder recently, had a rough start to the metagame but struck gold when building this team:
https://pokepast.es/e549b24b4726a53e
Very simple TR base with P2, Necrozma and Amoonguss. Those three always get at least the single TR up against self proc competitive, Beat Up strats, weather etc. from there you get to enjoy the freedom Unseen Fist gives you under TR, since you cannot protect against it or Marowak/Bisharp. Maro gives very good defensive counterplay to electric spam, and Bisharp guarantees you dont get neutered by Intimidate users under TR. Really solid team that can snowball really easily against any team that doesnt have Fini on it (the sole mon the team really struggles with).
https://pokepast.es/e549b24b4726a53e
Very simple TR base with P2, Necrozma and Amoonguss. Those three always get at least the single TR up against self proc competitive, Beat Up strats, weather etc. from there you get to enjoy the freedom Unseen Fist gives you under TR, since you cannot protect against it or Marowak/Bisharp. Maro gives very good defensive counterplay to electric spam, and Bisharp guarantees you dont get neutered by Intimidate users under TR. Really solid team that can snowball really easily against any team that doesnt have Fini on it (the sole mon the team really struggles with).
I've been playing and enjoying this format for the last few days. I'm eternally grateful that Shadow Tag is actually banned in this iteration of PiC, so I no longer feel obliged to run Shadow Tag + Truant + Entrainment and can actually use a real team.
This was my first teambuilding attempt, which got me to #3 on the ladder (52-11). Some of you may recognize it :)
(click for paste)
Basically I watched a few dozen battles on the ladder and thought about what a good team would look like in that context. Some initial thoughts went like this:
I think the team was pretty good for a first attempt. Some hypothetical variant of this with better answers to Trick Room would probably be my favored team for the format. Rillaboom to A tier please.
This was my first teambuilding attempt, which got me to #3 on the ladder (52-11). Some of you may recognize it :)
(click for paste)Basically I watched a few dozen battles on the ladder and thought about what a good team would look like in that context. Some initial thoughts went like this:
- There's lots of Rain, Electric spam, Trick Room, and that annoying Persian / Terrakion lead, meaning that priority is probably pretty good.
- Intimidate double-activating means that Inner Focus / Oblivious / Clear Body / Defiant / Competitive are significantly better than normal.
- It's much easier to cycle Fake Outs in this format (and ladder really likes opening with double Fake Out for some reason), so Inner Focus would probably be nice utility.
- Entei as primary Extreme Speed user also works as a decent Sun matchup with Safety Goggles. I didn't want to have Intimidate on the team because I feel it can be very exploitable, so Will-o-Wisp is a token amount of damage management. It's fun to switch it in on a predicted Fake Out and get free attacks off.
- Braviary over Galarian Zapdos as Defiant pick because of Tailwind access, and STAB on Extreme Speed hits surprisingly hard. That said, Galarian Zapdos makes the team's Urshifu/Kyurem-B+Tsareena matchup a lot better.
- AV Rillaboom is a great simple check to the Rain and Electric spam matchups that I was quite concerned about. Grassy Glide is also great priority, and because you can reset terrain via a switch on the partner slot, it's quite easy to maintain priority against opposing terrain. Passive recovery is good for bulky offense in general, especially when the only other option for recovery is Sylveon's Wish.
- Grimmsnarl's access to Prankster makes it easier to land important Will-o-Wisps and set important Tailwinds. Screens are very good because they prevent HO teams from getting the neutral OHKOs that makes them tick. Taunt just shuts down general gimmicks, which I expect to see in every Doubles format, every OM, and especially every Doubles OM.
- Sylveon's Wish is just a filler slot, but it plus Leftovers recovery has won me a couple of 1v1 endgames against weaker Pokemon like Tsareena which can't do more than 40% or so. It could just as well be Quick Attack or Toxic or something.
- Zygarde gives a spammable Ground-type attack, which is always good, plus a second Extreme Speed user which synergizes well with the core of the team.
I think the team was pretty good for a first attempt. Some hypothetical variant of this with better answers to Trick Room would probably be my favored team for the format. Rillaboom to A tier please.
Maybe I'm just incredibly stupid, but this seems really annoying to play against:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1661299589
Entrainment Durant = both your mons get truant in one turn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1661299589
Entrainment Durant = both your mons get truant in one turn
You have to Kill your own Truant pokemon in order to escape this insanity loop.
You can just run Protect or switch out if Durant didn’t die (which you should intentionally do since you were fighting an obvious gimmick team).
is dyynamic speed with switching in swift swimmers a thing that has been implamented or is it WIP
Pretty "standard" build to top the ladder with a 34-1 run.
Stacking types is no issue on this format as long as you have the abilities to cover their weaknesses and that's what gastrodon and cress do for diancie, heatran and incineroar. What I like the most about this team is that it has so many different ways to win the game. It can play the tr game and be proactive, or play a more positional game with sub, intimidate, parting shot, cm, etc... Or just play a more stallish game with toxic, cosmic power and recovery moves.
Clef is close to be a tier 1 mon as it was in sm (it is probably even better since now it can run a solid recovery move when using its HA), with unaware being so strong against so many teams, it fits perfectly fine patching the weaknesses the team could have against set up and being key against bulkier teams working as a cleric.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1662377420-qix08x7rcmx60by29mfa526mxdns7o6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1661553420-3xgtl4gzfck3xps20xvh3vweydckl1zpw
These are some of the games that were long enough to showcase what the team does, most of the games finished before turn 5 so it's not worth to show it tbh
I think I found a targeting bug / glitch
Possible cause: I think low memory (many open apps) or low storage space cause Showdown to behave erratically on Chrome Mobile
Screen recording with explanation:
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1663141523 (not really necessary, the screen recording shows the bug)
Extra Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1660607225 (shows me attacking my own Pokemon as a result of not being able to select target. The bug manifests in several ways. I can choose a move, but not a target, or vice versa. Or sometimes can't even control my second pokemon.)
Possible cause: I think low memory (many open apps) or low storage space cause Showdown to behave erratically on Chrome Mobile
Screen recording with explanation:
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1663141523 (not really necessary, the screen recording shows the bug)
Extra Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1660607225 (shows me attacking my own Pokemon as a result of not being able to select target. The bug manifests in several ways. I can choose a move, but not a target, or vice versa. Or sometimes can't even control my second pokemon.)
I haven't been been playing this tier for too long but I want to share my teams here, which peaked at top 30 and 6 respectively along with a little tech I think could see more use.
To be clear these teams aren't quite pick-up-and-win as imo trick room teams are inherently volatile in this tier with such a huge damage output so you still need to outplay your opponents basically every game if they're good, especially in the first few turns of the game but I think these are still really fun teams that can win if you're playing well enough.
(sorry if this is a bit messy or something but it's my first smogon post that isn't in or a winpost)
To be clear these teams aren't quite pick-up-and-win as imo trick room teams are inherently volatile in this tier with such a huge damage output so you still need to outplay your opponents basically every game if they're good, especially in the first few turns of the game but I think these are still really fun teams that can win if you're playing well enough.
https://pokepast.es/1499179e05d653a0
Proof of peak ^
The gameplan is very simple, you get room up with the help with fake out/wide guard and do some damage, I usually lead stakataka perrserker for a more offensive lead but rillaboom/porygon can both lead as well. The sets here are quite self explanatory as well so I don't think I need to go in depth on them
(I'll probably not edit in replays here as this team just isn't as good and I forgot to save any while I was still using it)
Proof of peak ^
The gameplan is very simple, you get room up with the help with fake out/wide guard and do some damage, I usually lead stakataka perrserker for a more offensive lead but rillaboom/porygon can both lead as well. The sets here are quite self explanatory as well so I don't think I need to go in depth on them
(I'll probably not edit in replays here as this team just isn't as good and I forgot to save any while I was still using it)
https://pokepast.es/8d060e57a915cbba
Proof of peak ^
This team, again, is relatively intuitive to use, you basically always lead hitmontop + hat/p2 depending on the matchup unless hitmontop in which case you have to adapt a bit but most of the time getting room up is relatively simple, and once you do you just position to get your sweepers in and sweep
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Eerie Impulse
- Ice Beam
- Reflect
Porygon2 is an excellent trick room setter in pic because it has excess to download to buff sweepers while also having an excellent bulk and supporting moveset, along with an ability to still do good damage especially with a download buff
Hatterene (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Expanding Force
Hatterene is an offensive setter with the ability to do huge damage when paired with eruption while also providing magic bounce to counter taunt and spore, while also being immune to dragon spam and 4x resists fighting which is a huge weakness for the rest of the team. Expert belt here is a nice alternative to life orb to give hat more survivability.
Torkoal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
Just your stock-standard torkoal, eruption for damage, heat wave when low health, along with solar beam for much needed coverage against the water types. Safety Goggles for spore/sleep powder though charcoal probably fits as well.
Heatran @ Charcoal
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Earth Power
- Eruption
- Flash Cannon
- Lava Plume
Again, nothing special here, eruption for main damage and lava plume for flash fire activation along with earth power and flash cannon coverage.
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Quick Guard
- Close Combat
- Protect
My favourite part of the team, pangoro provides mold breaker to help heatran wreck teams, going right through other heatrans' flash fire. CC and knock off also do good damage with lorb and provides some physical attacks on the team, while protect is a nice, simple defensive option you can always appreciate. Quick guard? Quick guard! It invalidates priorities like bullet punch or grassy glide along with fake out and triage, the latter two are way more important but also be mindful that it can only be used in room as it ties priorities with both at +3, which is incredible utility for a trick room team so you don't have to go on the defensive.
Hitmontop (M) @ Eject Button
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Feint
Last but not least, hitmontop is surprisingly uncommon (and unranked?) mon but it provides great utility with fake out + wide guard + feint. Fake out and wide guard can help a bunch with setting room up while and feint will help you do some damage once it is up, most notably for wide guard breaking which is another strangely uncommon thing, in combination with intimidate which is obviously amazing.
(I will edit in replays here probably)
Proof of peak ^
This team, again, is relatively intuitive to use, you basically always lead hitmontop + hat/p2 depending on the matchup unless hitmontop in which case you have to adapt a bit but most of the time getting room up is relatively simple, and once you do you just position to get your sweepers in and sweep
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Eerie Impulse
- Ice Beam
- Reflect
Porygon2 is an excellent trick room setter in pic because it has excess to download to buff sweepers while also having an excellent bulk and supporting moveset, along with an ability to still do good damage especially with a download buff
Hatterene (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Expanding Force
Hatterene is an offensive setter with the ability to do huge damage when paired with eruption while also providing magic bounce to counter taunt and spore, while also being immune to dragon spam and 4x resists fighting which is a huge weakness for the rest of the team. Expert belt here is a nice alternative to life orb to give hat more survivability.
Torkoal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
Just your stock-standard torkoal, eruption for damage, heat wave when low health, along with solar beam for much needed coverage against the water types. Safety Goggles for spore/sleep powder though charcoal probably fits as well.
Heatran @ Charcoal
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Earth Power
- Eruption
- Flash Cannon
- Lava Plume
Again, nothing special here, eruption for main damage and lava plume for flash fire activation along with earth power and flash cannon coverage.
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Quick Guard
- Close Combat
- Protect
My favourite part of the team, pangoro provides mold breaker to help heatran wreck teams, going right through other heatrans' flash fire. CC and knock off also do good damage with lorb and provides some physical attacks on the team, while protect is a nice, simple defensive option you can always appreciate. Quick guard? Quick guard! It invalidates priorities like bullet punch or grassy glide along with fake out and triage, the latter two are way more important but also be mindful that it can only be used in room as it ties priorities with both at +3, which is incredible utility for a trick room team so you don't have to go on the defensive.
Hitmontop (M) @ Eject Button
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Feint
Last but not least, hitmontop is surprisingly uncommon (and unranked?) mon but it provides great utility with fake out + wide guard + feint. Fake out and wide guard can help a bunch with setting room up while and feint will help you do some damage once it is up, most notably for wide guard breaking which is another strangely uncommon thing, in combination with intimidate which is obviously amazing.
(I will edit in replays here probably)
To be very clear, this is not exclusive to pic, nor am I the first one to discover it probably but I've kept this at the back of my mind for a long time now (like 2 years?) and I haven't seen anyone use it or mention it(ever, not just in this tier) so I want to share it here.
What is this little trick?
The concept of it is very simple, you use trick room with both your mons when trick room is up, reversing it then setting it again to reset turns.
What are the main use cases?
As you may have noticed, doing this takes up your entire turn, no attacks, no protection so the main way you'll get to utilize this is when you're predicting them protecting on both mons (or switching), you can also do this when you think/know they're not going to ko either one of your mons but that's more niche and unsafe
Why is this so much more potent in pic?
Set up for regular doubles: you need to have 2 trick room setters up while also pressuring enough for them to protect on both (or switch) or you're very sure they can't ko you, for the sake of this I'll just focus on the former as it's way more practical. To be able to pull that off you would need either 2 trick room setters on the field which is rare or only one that can pressure both enough, for example necrozma or hat in psychic terrain, now even with this set up, which is already hard and niche to pull off they would also have to be sure they won't attack especially if they already protected the turn previous.
Set up for pic: you now only need one trick room setter on the field, which opens up much more opportunities, because you can have any trick room sweeper along with a bulky or offensive setter to pull this off as long as they can assert enough pressure on, for example for my team that could be heatran or torkoal with either hat or p2, or even hat and p2 in some cases.
Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1662296616-jyffjj3yzm1asng78mwttli3cpbdd9apw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1662330563-pbx61w42bywfr5cf19nghdo75w3gt7cpw
What is this little trick?
The concept of it is very simple, you use trick room with both your mons when trick room is up, reversing it then setting it again to reset turns.
What are the main use cases?
As you may have noticed, doing this takes up your entire turn, no attacks, no protection so the main way you'll get to utilize this is when you're predicting them protecting on both mons (or switching), you can also do this when you think/know they're not going to ko either one of your mons but that's more niche and unsafe
Why is this so much more potent in pic?
Set up for regular doubles: you need to have 2 trick room setters up while also pressuring enough for them to protect on both (or switch) or you're very sure they can't ko you, for the sake of this I'll just focus on the former as it's way more practical. To be able to pull that off you would need either 2 trick room setters on the field which is rare or only one that can pressure both enough, for example necrozma or hat in psychic terrain, now even with this set up, which is already hard and niche to pull off they would also have to be sure they won't attack especially if they already protected the turn previous.
Set up for pic: you now only need one trick room setter on the field, which opens up much more opportunities, because you can have any trick room sweeper along with a bulky or offensive setter to pull this off as long as they can assert enough pressure on, for example for my team that could be heatran or torkoal with either hat or p2, or even hat and p2 in some cases.
Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1662296616-jyffjj3yzm1asng78mwttli3cpbdd9apw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8partnersincrime-1662330563-pbx61w42bywfr5cf19nghdo75w3gt7cpw
Last edited:
Loving the craziness of this mode! The first team I built was centered around Boomburst and the -Ate abilities to provide coverage.
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Helping Hand
- Protect
- Mystical Fire
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Life Dew
Noivern @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Telepathy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Switcheroo
- Flamethrower
Grimmsnarl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Body Slam
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
Aurorus @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Toxtricity-Low-Key @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Minus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Acid Spray
BoomBurst hits like a truck, especially so from the -Ate boost and super effective! Minus on Toxtricity gives him and allies a free Specs to fire off their new STAB Boomburst, Noivern gives Telepathy for guilt-free bursts. Grimsnarl gives Prankster Taunt and STAB Pixilate Fake Out for surprising damage.
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Helping Hand
- Protect
- Mystical Fire
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Life Dew
Noivern @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Telepathy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Switcheroo
- Flamethrower
Grimmsnarl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Body Slam
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
Aurorus @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Toxtricity-Low-Key @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Minus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Acid Spray
BoomBurst hits like a truck, especially so from the -Ate boost and super effective! Minus on Toxtricity gives him and allies a free Specs to fire off their new STAB Boomburst, Noivern gives Telepathy for guilt-free bursts. Grimsnarl gives Prankster Taunt and STAB Pixilate Fake Out for surprising damage.