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Project OU Theorymon
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Dude. It depends on them getting good submissions to make an interesting and unique slate. Yeah making the post won't take long but if they don't have the submissions to work with then what you gonna do. If you want to speed up the process then make some submissions yourself. Also as the project gets older it gets harder to get unique submissions that stand out from what's been done already so it's bound to slow down.
Alright, I'm getting really tired of posts like these. Normally, I would have these deleted and just ignore them, as we've all said a million times not to do this, but I do want to address this particular one since it was so rude and misguided. This is an exceptionally busy week not just for me but for all of council. Speaking personally, I've been devoted around the clock to studying for my SATs and finals. What you fail to remember is that this is a Pokemon website, and it in no way takes priority over my exams. We're all trying our best to give quality slates.
Thanks to everyone else who waits for this stuff. I understand you all like new slates and I appreciate the patience. I hopefully want to see no more posts like this, sorry for being a jerk, but it needed to be done.
Anyways, onto the winner of this slate!
Votes:
Iron Barbs + Recover Tentacruel: 20
Delta Stream Zapdos: 8
Hustle Zygarde: 13
Wish Furfrou: 0
The next slate will be (i'm blue da ba dee):
Good luck to all submissions, begin discussion n_n
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Hey Akumeoy , care to explain your reasoning for malamar? I'm curious how much this adds. It gets prankster destiny bond, topsy turvy and taunt, but loses contrary. Am I missing something big?
Stunfisk is pretty cool. It's like a rotom-w that offers more utility, being able to set rocks and come in more thanks to regen.
Stunfisk is pretty cool. It's like a rotom-w that offers more utility, being able to set rocks and come in more thanks to regen.
I actually love this entire slate? When's the last time that happened?
I guess I'll quote my pitch for Malamar, for starters.
tl;dr I'm most into Stunfisk and Malamar. Can't decide between the two atm actually.
I guess I'll quote my pitch for Malamar, for starters.
Akumeoy said:+ Prankster
Pitch:
Topsy-Turvy, an incredibly potent move that inverts the opponent's stat changes, is a staple in formats such as STABmons and Balanced Hackmons, where its presence on Pokemon with Prankster and Unaware prevent the tiers from becoming completely overwhelmed by dangerous setup sweepers. In standard tiers, however, the move is night-nonexistent due to the fact that it is the signature move of Malamar, a Pokemon with a seriously underwhelming statline (including a mediocre base-73 Speed) and disappointing defensive typing.
However, OU is still in need of a catch-all check to setup sweepers that fits on offensive playstyles (that isn't just Ditto). To that end, I propose to bring the utility of Topsy-Turvy to OU by giving Malamar Prankster. Don't think for a second that Prankster Malamar will be a one-dimensional setup check, either, because it has a surprisingly good movepool for Prankster, including:
Malamar @ Tanga Berry / Leftovers
- Destiny Bond as a way to take a troublesome sweeper out of commission, or at least force it out with the threat thereof.
- Light Screen + Reflect: Klefki is definitely a better user of Prankster Dual Screens, but if you're already using Malamar, well, offense loves screens.
- Rain Dance + Sunny Day: If you need a backup weather setter on a rain team, I guess.
- Taunt: Who doesn't love Prankster Taunt? Probably best for letting Malamar avoid getting Taunted itself and to prevent setup sweepers from setting up back to +0 after a Topsy-Turvy.
- Block: An evil option for Malamar, in conjunction with Taunt and Destiny Bond. It can only exercise this option effectively against very passive opponents.
- Topsy-Turvy: Already discussed.
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Topsy-Turvy
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Knock Off
Here's a sample set. Seeing a Malamar on the opposing team will force offense players to play carefully and build creatively if they don't want to lose all of their momentum in one shot. Tanga Berry allows Malamar to perform against Volcarona and Scizor, taking a -1 Bug Buzz and a Banded U-Turn from them, respectively. A spread of 252 HP / 24+ Def / 232 Spe allows it to outspeed 252-EV Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch (which risks an OHKO at +4), and probably some other priority users I'm forgetting. Leftovers is an option if you aren't worried about Bug-types and random U-Turns.
Malamar @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Topsy-Turvy
- Taunt / Destiny Bond
Screens set. Not much to say here. Taunt is preferred to, uh, not become 100% Taunt-bait and to function better in the lead slot.
Here you go. You guessed the gist of the submission, you're just REALLY underestimating the potency of having Prankster on those moves. It's a unique niche that can serve as important glue for offensive teams. The loss of Contrary doesn't matter because Contrary Malamar was never viable in OU.
It's always been a damn shame that Stunfisk has had to sit around in PU, because it has good bulk and a cool typing. By giving it mostly-reliable recovery and a slow Volt Switch, these changes make Stunfisk into one of the best bird stoppers in the game. Tornadus-Therian can barely damage it, while Stunfisk doesn't get worn down by repeated U-Turns. Talonflame needs a +2 Flare Blitz to damage it. Togekiss can annoy it with flinch hax, but doesn't like taking Discharges, and Stunfisk can always just switch out and back in to heal off two Air Slashes. It doesn't like a banded Double-Edge from Staraptor, but it can retaliate should Staraptor use any other move. Hawlucha doesn't 2HKO with High Jump Kick either, and doesn't enjoy paralysis.
As a Ground-type, it's unique in its ability to threaten Skarmory with a STAB, not giving Water-types free switch-ins, and supplying paralysis support. I could see it fitting on a decent number of teams.
Stunfisk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave/Scald
With a pivoting move and Regenerator, Stunfisk might not strictly need status moves or an open item slot. This set has all-around great bulk and good utility. Sludge Wave hits Grass-types, Scald hits Ground-types.
Stunfisk @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Scald
- Thunder Wave
Utility set with Thunder Wave and (sometimes) Stealth Rock. Shuca Berry lets it take random Earthquakes and retaliate with Scald (and lets it comfortably take Mega Pinsir's +2 Earthquake to retaliate with TWave or Volt Switch).
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuca Berry Stunfisk: 200-236 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
Stunfisk @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Discharge/Thunderbolt
- Sludge Wave
You know you want to use this set. Don't deny it.
As a Ground-type, it's unique in its ability to threaten Skarmory with a STAB, not giving Water-types free switch-ins, and supplying paralysis support. I could see it fitting on a decent number of teams.
Stunfisk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave/Scald
With a pivoting move and Regenerator, Stunfisk might not strictly need status moves or an open item slot. This set has all-around great bulk and good utility. Sludge Wave hits Grass-types, Scald hits Ground-types.
Stunfisk @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Scald
- Thunder Wave
Utility set with Thunder Wave and (sometimes) Stealth Rock. Shuca Berry lets it take random Earthquakes and retaliate with Scald (and lets it comfortably take Mega Pinsir's +2 Earthquake to retaliate with TWave or Volt Switch).
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuca Berry Stunfisk: 200-236 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
Stunfisk @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Discharge/Thunderbolt
- Sludge Wave
You know you want to use this set. Don't deny it.
Hey, another Unaware user. Water+Fighting has always been a cool defensive typing, and now it's on a properly defensive Pokemon that can counteract wearing-down with instant recovery. Basically Keldeo's defensive utility on something that can be EV'd to better take neutral hits. I do worry that, between Keldeo and Quagsire (a very similar Unaware user), it won't have much room to breathe niche-wise. Its numerous weaknesses also undercut the utility of Unaware.
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Recover
- Toxic
This set maximizes Poliwrath's utility over Quagsire -- Circle Throw, which is actually a huge selling point. Neither Clefable nor Quagsire can phaze opponents, so Poliwrath's niche will probably lie in its ability to take single hits from miscellaneous threats and phaze them out, while Quagsire needs to actually wall things to end a sweep. This set would run some SpD EVs to capitalize on Poliwrath's usable special bulk, but it needs its +Def to reliably take on non-Outrage Mega Charizard X.
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Recover
- Toxic
This set maximizes Poliwrath's utility over Quagsire -- Circle Throw, which is actually a huge selling point. Neither Clefable nor Quagsire can phaze opponents, so Poliwrath's niche will probably lie in its ability to take single hits from miscellaneous threats and phaze them out, while Quagsire needs to actually wall things to end a sweep. This set would run some SpD EVs to capitalize on Poliwrath's usable special bulk, but it needs its +Def to reliably take on non-Outrage Mega Charizard X.
I feel like this could have stood to get Dazzling Gleam as well, but it doesn't really matter. Basically, Keldeo : Poliwrath submission :: Azumarill : Vaporeon submission. A switch-in to Char-X, Bisharp, Weavile, Mega Lop, Lati@s, Mega Gyarados, and Keldeo for more defensive teams.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Scald
- Protect
- Roar
Roar is mandatory for it to do anything to the Water-types it's supposed to check, and max Defense lets it perform well against Mega Lop and Mega Gyarados.
I do worry about its passivity and overlap with Alomomola and Azumarill's niches, however.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Scald
- Protect
- Roar
Roar is mandatory for it to do anything to the Water-types it's supposed to check, and max Defense lets it perform well against Mega Lop and Mega Gyarados.
I do worry about its passivity and overlap with Alomomola and Azumarill's niches, however.
tl;dr I'm most into Stunfisk and Malamar. Can't decide between the two atm actually.
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Nice, I really love Regenerator users because they have a good HP stat to make good use of this ability and Stunfisk is not an exception. It can use Stealth Rock and spread status all around with attacking moves while holding an Assault Vest and this makes Stunfisk usable in OU with two sets: AV pivot and Leftovers utility.+ Volt Switch and Regenerator (Credit to Cobalion. )
Really nice the fact it stops opposite Volt Switches from i.e. opposite M-Manectric.
It is much better than Quagsire in practice than in theory due to the better numerical bulk (even though it the grass coverage is more predictable with many resistances in the OU meta) and offences. Circle Throw is very useful towards Mold Breaker users and with the basic support of an hazard setter. I see it well in the OU meta even though it faces serious competion with Clefable which beats it.+ Unaware and Recover
Flatter + Prankster is much worse(=stronger) than Swagger but this submission is interesting in different ways -bar the weakness to Taunt-, i.e. Prankster:+ Prankster (Credit to Akumeoy )
(1) Power Split with 0 Atk and 0 SpA IVs;
(2) Screens to support your team;
(3) Switcheroo when holding a Lagging Tail;
(4) Topsy-Turvy to ruin set-up sweepers;
(5) Destiny Bond seems mandatory to me to get a kill right off the bat;
(6) Taunt to prevent the opponent's Taunt from being used.
Nice submission, I might even vote for it even though it is quite mono dimensional.
Please, no. Eevolutions are monotype pokemons===> I don't think that Vaporeon is a fair nomination and Fairy type, while it is a good thing providing different resistances and weaknesses, doesn't change it much (the set posted by Akumeoy is literally the SAME of the standard Vaporeon).+ Water / Fairy-typing (Credit to Tressed )
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Unaware/Recover Wrath was submitted by me, but Snaquaza came up with the idea for it
Anyway here's my submission
Poliwrath + Unaware + Recover
The reasoning behind this one is to wall almost every set up sweeper rofl. Pretty simple and you all are smart so I'm sure you understand that Unaware is an excellent ability and Recover gives it longevity, so I'll just drop some calcs here. It also gets Circle Throw to phaze said set up mons, or Scald to annoy switch ins, and it's typing is pretty good as well. Me and snaq thought the SpD set would be better when we were discussing it (allowing it to beat notable mons such as Clefable/Manaphy) but a PDef set works too to beat Zard X w/o Outrage, SD Chomp, Double Dance Lando-T, and Mega Gyarados all the time. Both are great I just think the spd set would be better cuz it still walls some physical mons (like Weav/Mega TTar/Bish) and this lets it beat Mana/Clef ez.
Sample set:
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Sassy Nature or Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Circle Throw
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Toxic
I personally think Ice Beam is better on the PDef set, bopping Chomp/DNite/Landoge, while Toxic is better on the SpD set as you will generally not be facing those mons with that set.
A Bulk Up set with Bulk Up/Circle Throw/Waterfall/Recover could also be viable, as are Haze and Encore as more niche options. So that's Snaquaza's idea (although I did the calcs/this write up since he's busy), and we hope you like this one too :D
I also want to talk about Stunfisk as I think that is a really great submission. Momentum is fantastic, and Regenerator is great with a pivoting move. This would give Stunfisk longevity, allowing it to set rocks multiple times throughout the game, as well as check Electric-types such as Magnezone, Mega Manectric, and Raikou. It's unique typing is pretty neat, although weaknesses to Water/Ground trouble it. Weakness berries seem like nice lures, but after running some calcs, it gets 2HKOed by most attackers in OU :[ Still a neat submission imo
Malamar seems like a really cool submission. Topsy Turvy instantly nerfs set up, Destiny Bond is fantastic for eliminating threats to your team, Hypnosis is neat if you're edgy and skillful. Screens are neat for support, and it still has KOff utility. A very cool submission imo, and one that I'm interested in seeing in action.
Vaporeon is also cool. Water/Fairy is a fantastic typing imo, and alongside its great HP it can check mons such as Talonflame, Zard X, Garchomp, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Bisharp, and Weavile. This is also a fantastic buff that would give it instant increased viability in OU on more defensively minded teams.
Overall this is a VERY good slate, and one of the best in a long time imo, great job guys :]
Anyway here's my submission
Poliwrath + Unaware + Recover
The reasoning behind this one is to wall almost every set up sweeper rofl. Pretty simple and you all are smart so I'm sure you understand that Unaware is an excellent ability and Recover gives it longevity, so I'll just drop some calcs here. It also gets Circle Throw to phaze said set up mons, or Scald to annoy switch ins, and it's typing is pretty good as well. Me and snaq thought the SpD set would be better when we were discussing it (allowing it to beat notable mons such as Clefable/Manaphy) but a PDef set works too to beat Zard X w/o Outrage, SD Chomp, Double Dance Lando-T, and Mega Gyarados all the time. Both are great I just think the spd set would be better cuz it still walls some physical mons (like Weav/Mega TTar/Bish) and this lets it beat Mana/Clef ez.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
loses to Specs ofc, but can beat SubCM and Scarf
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 104-123 (27 - 32%) -- 45.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 128-151 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it is offensive DD+Ice Fang+STABs you can take it and phaze it ez despite moldy bypassing Unaware
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 214-252 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it does run EQ, you can always switch in on it as it DDs, and phaze it via Circle Throw, then hopefully Recover off the damage against something else
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 149-176 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
which is stronger than regular tyranitar
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 101-121 (26.3 - 31.5%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(is SD Gliscor a thing? It doesn't have a set but it's walled anyway)
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 112-133 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
I think I'm starting to stretch for some here lol, but you get the point, it walls a lot of stuff :D
loses to Specs ofc, but can beat SubCM and Scarf
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 104-123 (27 - 32%) -- 45.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 128-151 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it is offensive DD+Ice Fang+STABs you can take it and phaze it ez despite moldy bypassing Unaware
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 214-252 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it does run EQ, you can always switch in on it as it DDs, and phaze it via Circle Throw, then hopefully Recover off the damage against something else
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 149-176 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
which is stronger than regular tyranitar
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 101-121 (26.3 - 31.5%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(is SD Gliscor a thing? It doesn't have a set but it's walled anyway)
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 112-133 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
I think I'm starting to stretch for some here lol, but you get the point, it walls a lot of stuff :D
NOTE: Still beats all the physical attackers listed in the first hide, but more consistently and notably beats Mega Gyarados more easily (it can't 2HKO anymore)
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sample set:
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Sassy Nature or Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Circle Throw
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Toxic
I personally think Ice Beam is better on the PDef set, bopping Chomp/DNite/Landoge, while Toxic is better on the SpD set as you will generally not be facing those mons with that set.
A Bulk Up set with Bulk Up/Circle Throw/Waterfall/Recover could also be viable, as are Haze and Encore as more niche options. So that's Snaquaza's idea (although I did the calcs/this write up since he's busy), and we hope you like this one too :D
I also want to talk about Stunfisk as I think that is a really great submission. Momentum is fantastic, and Regenerator is great with a pivoting move. This would give Stunfisk longevity, allowing it to set rocks multiple times throughout the game, as well as check Electric-types such as Magnezone, Mega Manectric, and Raikou. It's unique typing is pretty neat, although weaknesses to Water/Ground trouble it. Weakness berries seem like nice lures, but after running some calcs, it gets 2HKOed by most attackers in OU :[ Still a neat submission imo
Malamar seems like a really cool submission. Topsy Turvy instantly nerfs set up, Destiny Bond is fantastic for eliminating threats to your team, Hypnosis is neat if you're edgy and skillful. Screens are neat for support, and it still has KOff utility. A very cool submission imo, and one that I'm interested in seeing in action.
Vaporeon is also cool. Water/Fairy is a fantastic typing imo, and alongside its great HP it can check mons such as Talonflame, Zard X, Garchomp, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Bisharp, and Weavile. This is also a fantastic buff that would give it instant increased viability in OU on more defensively minded teams.
Overall this is a VERY good slate, and one of the best in a long time imo, great job guys :]
Stunfisk is interesting to me, as its typing brings it a rather odd set of resistances and some common weaknesses, but decent bulk and Regnerator + Voltturn along with a SR resistance makes it a pretty decent answer to Birdspam. A utility movepool including Scald, SR, T-Wave, and Yawn make it an interesting Pivot, being able to lay hazards and spread status around while Regenerator makes eating 3HKO damage a bit safer.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 124-148 (29.3 - 35%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 153-182 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 168-198 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also prevents these opponents from Volt Switching out themselves, helping Stunfisk provide utility without forfeiting momentum the way other bulky utility mons like Ferrothorn are prone to. Also synergizes well with certain other Turners
- Resisting Birdspam, Rock, and Electric for Torn-T, who in turn deals with Grass types like Breloom, Mega Venusaur, and Serperior
- Mega Scizor beats Grass Types and most Ice types, while Stunfisk helps wear down mons with various Status effects and can crack most Steel types who wall no Superpower Scizor
This is interesting to me, as Stunfisk was one of those mons that was always close to having an OU niche and just needed a change Theorymon could provide.
Malamar seems like its going to be nuts, almost like a slightly less cancerous Gothitelle. Prankster Block takes some skill and prediction to get the most out of, but Malamar can create quite a few set up opportunities if it traps the right mon and gets it with Taunt. Topsy-Turvy is probably also the best stop to Boosting sweepers, as Unaware users still have to wall the +0 variant and Phazers need to survive a hit to force them out, and that's only if they're not in a last mon situation. Topsy Turvy not only circumvents those points for any sweeper not using priority itself (Talonflame for example), but has benefits beyond ending the sweep attempt, since a -2, -2 Mega Zard-X can't do much under those circumstances.
-2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 156-184 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unlike Phazing, the opponent HAS to hard-switch after the move, as their sweeper risks becoming set up bait itself. One tactic might even be to sac Malamar to the TT attack, then use the deflated opponent to bring in your own Set Up sweeper. This tactic also means Malamar has to be kept in tact, but not extremely healthy as Quagsire or Unaware Clefable need to be. If your team simply doesn't have anything that needs that set up opportunity, or can't benefit even from the dropped mon due to typing, Malamar can simply force a Double-Down with Destiny Bond, while Taunt prevents its passive nature from allowing the opponent to simply reboost.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 124-148 (29.3 - 35%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 153-182 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Stunfisk: 168-198 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also prevents these opponents from Volt Switching out themselves, helping Stunfisk provide utility without forfeiting momentum the way other bulky utility mons like Ferrothorn are prone to. Also synergizes well with certain other Turners
- Resisting Birdspam, Rock, and Electric for Torn-T, who in turn deals with Grass types like Breloom, Mega Venusaur, and Serperior
- Mega Scizor beats Grass Types and most Ice types, while Stunfisk helps wear down mons with various Status effects and can crack most Steel types who wall no Superpower Scizor
This is interesting to me, as Stunfisk was one of those mons that was always close to having an OU niche and just needed a change Theorymon could provide.
Malamar seems like its going to be nuts, almost like a slightly less cancerous Gothitelle. Prankster Block takes some skill and prediction to get the most out of, but Malamar can create quite a few set up opportunities if it traps the right mon and gets it with Taunt. Topsy-Turvy is probably also the best stop to Boosting sweepers, as Unaware users still have to wall the +0 variant and Phazers need to survive a hit to force them out, and that's only if they're not in a last mon situation. Topsy Turvy not only circumvents those points for any sweeper not using priority itself (Talonflame for example), but has benefits beyond ending the sweep attempt, since a -2, -2 Mega Zard-X can't do much under those circumstances.
-2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 156-184 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unlike Phazing, the opponent HAS to hard-switch after the move, as their sweeper risks becoming set up bait itself. One tactic might even be to sac Malamar to the TT attack, then use the deflated opponent to bring in your own Set Up sweeper. This tactic also means Malamar has to be kept in tact, but not extremely healthy as Quagsire or Unaware Clefable need to be. If your team simply doesn't have anything that needs that set up opportunity, or can't benefit even from the dropped mon due to typing, Malamar can simply force a Double-Down with Destiny Bond, while Taunt prevents its passive nature from allowing the opponent to simply reboost.
ok ok so just an FYI Vaporeon does get Moonblast as a part of the deal. Rec added that little bit of info to the overview.
Vaporeon looks boring as hell but it's actually a really good pokemon with Fairy typing. If you've played OU, you know exactly how good Azumarill's typing is defensively. The problem with that, of course, is that Azumarill's bulk isn't exactly brilliant, nor does it have any way of healing itself, though that doesn't stop Assault Vest Azu from being a major threat, nor does it stop Defensive Azu from being excusable on specific teams. Now if we were to put that typing on a defensive Pokemon, one that didn't have those flaws, that would be pretty sweet, right?
Vaporeon's got enough bulk to stop a huge number of OU mons thanks to it's new typing, including Zard X, Bisharp, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Lati@s, Talonflame, Weavile, Mega Gyarados, Tyranitar, Scizor, and a bunch of less common mons that I can't be bothered to list here. That by itself makes it a great cornerstone to start building a defensive team around, but it also can provide Wish support for it's teammates, so it's providing some great support for it's teammates as well. It's also less passive than it would appear, despite a reliance on Wish-Protect for recovery, since STAB Scald coming off of a base 110 SpAtk isn't anywhere near Alomomola levels of passiveness. Moonblast also offers it the ability to go after targets it wouldn't be able to touch otherwise, such as a number of Fighting, Dark, and Dragon types (cough Kyurem), but of course you can opt to skip those if you have those mons covered by other teammates.
Theorymon needs something bulky in order to make defensive teams viable again, as it's really difficult to build a bulky team that doesn't get run over by things like Kyurem and Entei. Vaporeon offers a solution to those problems. It's not as shiny and new as some of the nominations, but I think if we want to have a meta with more variety than HO spam we're gonna need more mons like these.
Let me just say that I love this slate so much. This is so hard to choose from.
Stunfisk + Regenerator + Volt Switch
Stunfisk is probably the derpiest pokemon, only rivaled by Dunsparce. However, these changes make stunfisk a pretty cool mon in ou. Stunfisk has solid bulk, with 109/84/99 defenses being solid enough to do the job of a pivot. What helps Stunfisk even more is that Electric Ground is such an interesting typing. An assault vest Stunfisk could easily take on the common ou electrics of manectric and raikou. Stunfisk beats burd spam, by not only tanking most of their hits, but also through its resistance to rocks. By having Regenerator with a Rocks resistance, Stunfisk becomes so much harder to take down. Also, Stunfisk has some decnet support tools in Thunder Wave, Stealth Rocks, and Scald.
All in all, a solid mon. Nothing game changing, but a nice change to a mediocre mon.
Malamar + Prankster
I hate this thing. I love this thing. It is so stupidly good.
Malamar has the perfect movepool for a prankster user. Lets start off with Topsy Turvy. This alone makes Malamar a game changer. Basically, Malamar can effectively destroy any set up sweeper that lacks priority, neutering its attempts at a sweep. That Zard X at +1? Not a problem with Malamar to save the day. Topsy Turvy alone would make Malamar a scary foe, but it gets better/worse. I'm not going to talk of Swagger, but Flatter is basically a lower risk lower reward version of Swagger. That shows the sheer annoyance that Malamar would bring. Prankster taunt is a thing, and it would be cool to stop any set up sweepers you ravange from climbing out of the abyss. Prankster screens is a thing, and that would help offensive teams. Power Split would be able to neuter a non set up sweeper by effectivly averaging their offensive stats with (using minimum ivs and neutral nature) 189 and 141 offenses respectively. Finally, if these all made you fear Malamar, it also gets Prankster Destiny Bond. Thats pretty scary. Basically having a kill in the back if you need it.
This thing is not perfect tho. It lacks reliable recovery. Its defenses are poor, as 86/88/75 is not great by any standard. However, these flaws are marginalized by just how strong this thing is. Fear this thing.
Poliwrath + Unaware + Recover
Basically Quagsire 2.0. Trade away your mega grass weakness for better stats, movepool, and more weaknesses. I could see this thing being real strong. Circle Throw ensures that you can keep up pressure on the opposing team, and are not too passive. Being able to phaze for stall reliably is pretty solid. Basically, a set of Circle Throw, Scald, Toxic, and Recover functions like better quagsire. Also, phazing out set up sweepers is great, did i mention that? While it does gain more weaknesses than Quag, the splashability of this thing make it really good.
Vaporeon +Water/Fairy + Moonblast
TBH, my least favorite nom. Flavor is off, keep eevees monotype plz. As for the usage, its pretty ok. Defensively, its solid. Tressed explained why this is good better than I ever could. Its good, but idk if its my choice.
Leaning towards Prankster Malamar atm, but I could go any way tbh. Wish all these could be honorable mentions, they all are solid af.
Stunfisk + Regenerator + Volt Switch
Stunfisk is probably the derpiest pokemon, only rivaled by Dunsparce. However, these changes make stunfisk a pretty cool mon in ou. Stunfisk has solid bulk, with 109/84/99 defenses being solid enough to do the job of a pivot. What helps Stunfisk even more is that Electric Ground is such an interesting typing. An assault vest Stunfisk could easily take on the common ou electrics of manectric and raikou. Stunfisk beats burd spam, by not only tanking most of their hits, but also through its resistance to rocks. By having Regenerator with a Rocks resistance, Stunfisk becomes so much harder to take down. Also, Stunfisk has some decnet support tools in Thunder Wave, Stealth Rocks, and Scald.
All in all, a solid mon. Nothing game changing, but a nice change to a mediocre mon.
Malamar + Prankster
I hate this thing. I love this thing. It is so stupidly good.
Malamar has the perfect movepool for a prankster user. Lets start off with Topsy Turvy. This alone makes Malamar a game changer. Basically, Malamar can effectively destroy any set up sweeper that lacks priority, neutering its attempts at a sweep. That Zard X at +1? Not a problem with Malamar to save the day. Topsy Turvy alone would make Malamar a scary foe, but it gets better/worse. I'm not going to talk of Swagger, but Flatter is basically a lower risk lower reward version of Swagger. That shows the sheer annoyance that Malamar would bring. Prankster taunt is a thing, and it would be cool to stop any set up sweepers you ravange from climbing out of the abyss. Prankster screens is a thing, and that would help offensive teams. Power Split would be able to neuter a non set up sweeper by effectivly averaging their offensive stats with (using minimum ivs and neutral nature) 189 and 141 offenses respectively. Finally, if these all made you fear Malamar, it also gets Prankster Destiny Bond. Thats pretty scary. Basically having a kill in the back if you need it.
This thing is not perfect tho. It lacks reliable recovery. Its defenses are poor, as 86/88/75 is not great by any standard. However, these flaws are marginalized by just how strong this thing is. Fear this thing.
Poliwrath + Unaware + Recover
Basically Quagsire 2.0. Trade away your mega grass weakness for better stats, movepool, and more weaknesses. I could see this thing being real strong. Circle Throw ensures that you can keep up pressure on the opposing team, and are not too passive. Being able to phaze for stall reliably is pretty solid. Basically, a set of Circle Throw, Scald, Toxic, and Recover functions like better quagsire. Also, phazing out set up sweepers is great, did i mention that? While it does gain more weaknesses than Quag, the splashability of this thing make it really good.
Vaporeon +Water/Fairy + Moonblast
TBH, my least favorite nom. Flavor is off, keep eevees monotype plz. As for the usage, its pretty ok. Defensively, its solid. Tressed explained why this is good better than I ever could. Its good, but idk if its my choice.
Leaning towards Prankster Malamar atm, but I could go any way tbh. Wish all these could be honorable mentions, they all are solid af.
Stunfisk was already pretty cool, so adding this stuff is really what it needs to push it over the boundary. Defo makes it significantly better. Its kinda ironic tho, cause it actually benefits a lot from static in that it alliws it to fill its role (a voltturn and bird stop) well, so it'll be interesting to see the effect it has on its viability. Volt Switch is amazing either way tho, so yay i guess lol
Even w/o gaining Unaware Poli is freaking sweet. Great set of resistances and good bulk in conjunction with Recover is really freaking sweet, as it gives it something to set it apart from Keldeo.
Not so keen on the others personally, as I think these two just blow it them out f the water imo.
Even w/o gaining Unaware Poli is freaking sweet. Great set of resistances and good bulk in conjunction with Recover is really freaking sweet, as it gives it something to set it apart from Keldeo.
Not so keen on the others personally, as I think these two just blow it them out f the water imo.
I don't think that the introduction of Moonblast changes so much because Vaporeon has still one set viable with little changes:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Wish
and you have to drop Roar and Heal Bell
This is literally ONE set possible with TWO changes and this means low innovation ===> this is not enough to give it my vote even though it becomes an effective stop to Sheer Force Kyurem and Competitive Entei.
Oddly enough, there are three good possible nominations this time and I'd like to see more discussion on Stunfisk and Poliwrath to decide because:
(1) Both are effective, not game-changing but have some degree of utility;
(2) Both make grass coverage more useful;
(3) Whereas Stunfisk becomes from unviable to viable without outclass anything in particular, Poliwrath outclasses Quagsire making the latter unviable.
Sorry if I ask this but: Does Fairy-Water Vaporeon contradict the flavour of Eevolutions being monotypes, doesn't it? Why was Fairy-Water Vaporeon considered a fair nomination? It wasn't better Milotic + Fairy type + Moonblast to prevent this contradiction? Multiscale Milotic is so bad it is a D-ranked monster here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-theorymon-check-post-111.3541537/page-7.
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Is vaporeon really going to fit Moonblast in though? Wishtect, heal bell and scald, why would it really carry moonblast? A new ability would be far more valuable, maybe something like thick fat? I'm not suggestkng a change in the slate, but fitting moonblast in is hard
What does thick fat do for a water type .-.
Besides with any ability other than water absorb it'd prolly gave literlly no reason to be used over other, better waters (still not much reason now tbh).
It doesn't really benfit from this slate much so it won't end up getting picked prolly - if only cause the rest of the slate is godly lol
Edit: btw ik for a fact that this is gonna be the best Stunfisk set cause i use fisk already ;P
Stunfisk @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator / Static
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 152 SpA / 32 SpD (helmet) OR 252 HP / 72 Def / 180 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Discharge / Toxic
Helmet lets it better check birds and U-turners (especially with Static) and Lefties lets you eliminat a 5% chance of not 2HKOing AV Rai due to less SpD being needed for a better benchmark. Said benchmark is taking 2 specs HP Ices from raikou before or after rocks, depending on item. Scald is pretty bad cause Discharge achieves the goal of the set better by paralysing birds and not having to switch to hit them hard.
Besides with any ability other than water absorb it'd prolly gave literlly no reason to be used over other, better waters (still not much reason now tbh).
It doesn't really benfit from this slate much so it won't end up getting picked prolly - if only cause the rest of the slate is godly lol
Edit: btw ik for a fact that this is gonna be the best Stunfisk set cause i use fisk already ;P
Stunfisk @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator / Static
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 152 SpA / 32 SpD (helmet) OR 252 HP / 72 Def / 180 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Discharge / Toxic
Helmet lets it better check birds and U-turners (especially with Static) and Lefties lets you eliminat a 5% chance of not 2HKOing AV Rai due to less SpD being needed for a better benchmark. Said benchmark is taking 2 specs HP Ices from raikou before or after rocks, depending on item. Scald is pretty bad cause Discharge achieves the goal of the set better by paralysing birds and not having to switch to hit them hard.
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I'm less concerned about flavour and more concerned about the effectiveness of a submission. The flavour rule really only exists to prevent nominations that make zero sense (Ice Punch Klefki or Magma Storm Keldeo). If you're going to argue that Water / Fairy Vaporeon shouldn't exist because GF wanted it to be monotype, I'm not sure you're in the right place. This whole project exists to change GF's original design into something usable, regardless of what their vision for the Pokemon was, and holding certain mons to a different account because they belong to a different family than past submissions doesn't hold water with me.
Also the Pokemon doesn't need to be super innovative, most theorymons only have one or two changes based around their addition, and some (Sceptile, Entei, Kyurem) don't really change at all.
Volt Absorb, Sap Sipper, Speed Boost (with BP,) and there's a reason I always suggest Dry Skin over Water Absorb when I want water immunity on something. These would probably give it good use over other waters. Not trying to be confrontational here.
If its for the immunity itself then Water Absorb is strictly superior to Dry Skin due to not doubling damage from Fire-type moves. On a non rain team, this applies due to just how stupidly situational Dry Skin's advantage is when not given to its user on a plate.
BTW dw about it ur not being confrontational or anything. I'm prolly (inadvertently) being more in this post than u were just then lol
edit: anyway so that it's on topic to the thread I think Malamar is good its just that the rest of the slate is better. While Vaporeon could be cool it just doesn't seem all that useful in practice without gaining something other than moonblast, which doesn't really do anything for it when it needs to fit Scald, Heal Bell, Roar, Wish and Protect on one set already as is.
BTW dw about it ur not being confrontational or anything. I'm prolly (inadvertently) being more in this post than u were just then lol
edit: anyway so that it's on topic to the thread I think Malamar is good its just that the rest of the slate is better. While Vaporeon could be cool it just doesn't seem all that useful in practice without gaining something other than moonblast, which doesn't really do anything for it when it needs to fit Scald, Heal Bell, Roar, Wish and Protect on one set already as is.
I'm not sure why Vaporeon is getting so much hate tbh. I can understand if someone doesn't vote for it because they don't like the flavor since that's a personal reason, but not picking it because it won't be effective doesn't make very much sense. Water/Fairy is an amazing defensive typing, as Azumarill shows.
Reposting this cause Tressed's explantion on why it would be so good is spot on. All the mons he mentioned are ones that Vap counters with Water/Fairy, along with everything else it used to (besides stuff with Poison coverage)
Not sure what I'm going to vote for yet, but everything in this slate looks pretty cool.
The thing is, it is strictly inferior to the rest of the slate. Sure, its not ineffective per se, but on the kinds of teams you're gonna be running it on then it is strictly inferior to Azumarill, if only due to Sap Sipper providing sweet utility on stall.
Yeah uh not inferior lol. Access to Heal Bell and the ability to use Wish over like RestTalk are both certainly valuable. Bulk between the two is more or less even, but Vaporeon also has a 110 Special Attack stat compared to Azu's 60 so Vaporeon's Scald and Moonblast may be able to, you know, threaten things. In addition, I'd love to have more Water Absorb pivots to eat Scalds...
Eh whatever. TBH i forgot that much and was thinking too much into Sap Sipper lol, but I still think it'd prolly still see more use on stall than vapor 'cause Serp counter, while Encore is also pretty sweet over Heal Bell+WishPass (two things that Stall commonly carries anyway). I'm not really thinking enough about it on balance tho, so... eeeeeh.
Either way tho the rest of the slate is much better imo. The utility of Prankster Topsy Turvy is huge on both stall and balance for the ability to turn the tables on Manaphy and straight up cripple CM users and force them out, Poliwrath attaining a good niche over Keldeo and Suicune with Recover while having pretty unique typing that gives stall an answer to Taunt MGyara while giving us a good alternative Unaware user for builds which benefit less from Quag/Clef, and Stunfisk has gained the tools that were holding it back from a consistently good answer to VoltTurn and birdspam on offense courtesy of its typing being stupidly good. Compared to Vaporeon, who gives balance and stall another cleric (admittedly fairy typing is super good), it is hard to justify voting for imo. I'd love to see it return in a future slate tho, as this whole slate is rlly good regardless.
Either way tho the rest of the slate is much better imo. The utility of Prankster Topsy Turvy is huge on both stall and balance for the ability to turn the tables on Manaphy and straight up cripple CM users and force them out, Poliwrath attaining a good niche over Keldeo and Suicune with Recover while having pretty unique typing that gives stall an answer to Taunt MGyara while giving us a good alternative Unaware user for builds which benefit less from Quag/Clef, and Stunfisk has gained the tools that were holding it back from a consistently good answer to VoltTurn and birdspam on offense courtesy of its typing being stupidly good. Compared to Vaporeon, who gives balance and stall another cleric (admittedly fairy typing is super good), it is hard to justify voting for imo. I'd love to see it return in a future slate tho, as this whole slate is rlly good regardless.