Nominating Dragonite for A rank. The original dragon is now a reborn threat in this meta due to the lack of competition for a team slot he has in the standard OU meta with things like Mega Altaria and Charizard X. He's one of the two better Dragon Dancers in the meta(the other one is Gyarados) thanks to Multiscale that basically guarantees at least one DD up and also Extremespeed that allows it to not be easily dispatched by Talonflame and Ice Sharders such as Weavile and Mamoswine. Also if one prefers immediate power it can run a great Choice Band set as well with good power and coverage and +2 priority to boot. The only thing that keeps it from A+ rank imo is that hazard removal support is mandatory and this can be harder to accomplish comparing to standard OU, mainly because of the dominance of Bisharp that threatens Defog users, as well as Starmie.
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Resource OU No Mega Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Ah yes, the classic appeal to authority response. While I appreciate your work in maintaining this list, has it occured to you that a significant portion of people responding to this thread may be basing their opinions off of their standard OU experience or theorycrafting that has very little application in the actual metagame? Believe it or not I do know how these kinds of threads work, and I also know that Pokemon have been radically shifted up and down all sorts of viability tier lists as the metagame has shifted or become better understood. Just look at what happened to Mega Pinsir or Quagsire in OU- opinions change. The way I see it, we can either look at battle after battle after battle after battle after battle after battle after battle after battle after battle and ask "hey, I wonder why not a SINGLE TOP PLAYER is using Landorus", or we can put our heads in the sand, shut down any debate on the subject, and wonder why 98% of the people on the ladder who probabaly come to threads like this for advice have no clue what they're doing.
So my question to you is, do you want have a serious debate about this or not?
Kyurem-B can beat every single one of its counters with the right coverage moves- that alone does not make a Pokemon S-tier. Forcing switches is nice on paper, but you have to ask yourself how often Landorus is going to be forcing switches in the first place. It needs to be able to comfortably beat most common threats 1v1 before it can even start to think about how much damage it can do on the switchin. This is especially important because Landorus does not have the best speed or bulk and sports two easily exploited weaknesses. My argument is that the extra team space afforded by the lack of Megas makes it easier to use Pokemon that deny Landorus these opportunities. The very common Assault Vest Azumarill and Conkeldurr sets both force Landorus out, as they can easily stomach a super effective hit and OHKO back with Waterfall/Ice Punch:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 255-302 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 213-252 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even the Choice Band Azumarill set has a good chance to OHKO Landorus with Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock, which Landorus has little to no chance of preventing. As for other big OU threats, we can just go down the list and see how well each of them do in a 1v1 matchup scenario:
Azumarill- Lando loses to vest/banded sets, takes severe damage from others
Bisharp- Lando wins, but takes ~50% damage from Sucker Punch
Keldeo- Lando always loses
Clefable- Lando wins if it has Sludge Wave but cannot OHKO usually, loses to Ice Beam sets
Garchomp- Offensive sets can outspeed and ohko Lando with Outrage, defensive sets can tank HP Ice and get up Stealth Rock
Gengar- Lando loses to Icy Wind, takes severe damage from Shadow Ball
Gliscor- Can tank an HP Ice and force Lando to take 2 turns of toxic damage, can toxic stall out sets lacking the move
Heatran- Scarf set outspeeds and OHKOs with Overheat, slower sets forced out
Landorus-T- Lando with HP Ice wins
Latios- Lando loses to Draco Meteor
Talonflame- Lando loses to Brave Bird
Thundurus- Lando loses to HP Ice
And these are just the S and A+ viability mons... going down to A you have Latias, Raikou, Manaphy, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Slowbro, Rotom-W, Scizor, Starmie, and Tornadus-T who can all reliably beat Landorus's usual sets. There's a pretty consistent pattern going on here- Landorus tends to straight up lose to half the Pokemon in the tier, has iffy matchups against another quarter of them, and is either crippled or takes a significant chunk of damage from the Pokemon it does force out if they decide to stay in. Considering that its main job is to be a wallbreaker and offensive cleaner, it really gets hugely outclassed by other offensive threats like Latios and Keldeo. Landorus is good, don't get me wrong, but every piece of evidence both theoretical and from actual battles suggests that it's being tremendously overrated.
As for Cresselia, well, being able to switch into a lot of revenge killers and spread around Paralysis is extremely useful for offensive teams. It has great bulk on both sides, something typical stall Pokemon like Chansey and Skarmory do not, meaning you can cover a huge amount of threats in one teamslot while relaxing your restrictions on what kind of offensive threats the rest of your team will use. From these reasons and my experience I've found it extremely useful for offensive teams as well as stall.
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What the hell am I reading?
No seriously, If you're just going to say shit like "It has checks move it down 4 subranks" Nobody is going to take you seriously at all. There is no reason Lando should drop from S rank, ever.
Landorus isn't this god mon that is supposed to 1v1 the entire meta and win against every single thing, I could argue something like Xerneas in Ubers getting checked by a bunch of mons, but that's no reason for it to drop. - Landorus still does what it does in normal OU, except teams can free up an extra slot to check it more easily, but that's no excuse when those teams can still get completely destroyed by a specific coverage options. And you've seemed to have forgotten usage =/= viability. Lando doesn't have that much usage in normal OU, but that doesn't warrant a drop either.
I could go on and on, but I really don't think I need to.
No seriously, If you're just going to say shit like "It has checks move it down 4 subranks" Nobody is going to take you seriously at all. There is no reason Lando should drop from S rank, ever.
Landorus isn't this god mon that is supposed to 1v1 the entire meta and win against every single thing, I could argue something like Xerneas in Ubers getting checked by a bunch of mons, but that's no reason for it to drop. - Landorus still does what it does in normal OU, except teams can free up an extra slot to check it more easily, but that's no excuse when those teams can still get completely destroyed by a specific coverage options. And you've seemed to have forgotten usage =/= viability. Lando doesn't have that much usage in normal OU, but that doesn't warrant a drop either.
I could go on and on, but I really don't think I need to.
Landorus' usage on the ladder by the highest avaliable usage stats is around 10%. Why list several replays showing where Landorus isn't being used when we have hard evidence that states otherwise? I could cherry pick replays that don't show Talonflame in any OU meta but that doesn't mean it isn't on a large portion of teams. That's also ignoring the fact that Lando has been a traditionally been a lower usage pokemon but that does not impact the constriction it puts on teambuilding or its overall effectiveness.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 387-458 (100.7 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 199-234 (49.6 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 174-206 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Azumarill can't switch in on Landorus' most spammable STAB and KO with priority in return.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 175-208 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Conk can't even switch in on two Earth Powers without Rocks, let alone get a chance to hit back with Ice Punch. As far as Landorus not having enough bulk to switch in, it has more than enough to switch in on more than its fair share of mons. You can't assume this game is played in a 1v1 vacuum when having any kind of discussion because that leads to unrealistic scenarios. It doesn't matter if you don't think Lando can get in, it will at some point either off of a double switch, slow VoltTurn, or revenge killing. What happens if for whatever reason you blow a predict (because you do not have perfect prediction) and Lando gets in on an Earthquake against something it beats clean? Are you gonna send in Conkeldurr then? Like hell you aren't.
There's a few flaws here. It doesn't matter what beats Lando 1v1, it really doesn't. That's a very narrow viewpoint with which to look at something. Your list also shows a lacking of metagame knowledge in some places. RP Lando with Psychic invalidates Keldeo and Gengar as switch-ins at the very least. Fatchomp can't switch in with only the tiniest bit of prior damage. Gliscor can only switch in on Earth Power, and even then Toxic-Protect Gliscor is not a strong set as you are forgoing better move options such as EQ, Knock Off, Taunt, and Swords Dance. Here's the big issue with your thought process- 1v1 doesn't mean crap in a real game. It doesn't. It's not realistic. Try putting up that kind of garbage thought process in a suspect thread and a mod will delete your post. It's also a bit odd that you talk about 1v1 scenarios and then mention the words "reliably beat". That implies that said mon can switch in and beat Landorus' usual sets, not beat it 1v1. You think Scizor, Slowbro, and Raikou are switching in on Lando at all? Because that's what entails "reliably beating them".
Also, while I'm here, why is it harder to get Landorus in battle in this meta? Couldn't you apply that same logic to the regular OU meta, especially becuase there are more threats capable of beating Lando 1v1 there? Aren't there more solid checks and counters to Lando there, like Mega Latias for example? The only difference is that you've stated it's easier to stack Lando checks in this meta when at the same time Lando has lost some solid answers and gained none (because trust me, if lower tier answers existed to Lando they would be used in regular OU as well).
Things have checks, threats can't just come in on everything or else they would be quick banned. Does Lando have viable checks? Yes. Latios can check quite easily but Landorus+Tyranitar is a tried and true method of removing the Lati@s easily. In fact that was a large reason Landorus got banned last generation. There are two win conditions in this particular metagame that stand above all else in my mind. One is Drum Azumarill at +6. Another is Landorus at +2 speed when it has only revealed Earth Power. RP Lando has two free moveslots to just keep you guessing.
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I don't know how Clone / Celtic thinks of Torn-T at the moment but for me it is easy A+ rank at the moment.
Omastar should stay one subrank below Kingdra because Kingdra is just the better rain abuser in general. Omastar is a great wallbreaker but it has some big flaws over Kingdra. Speed tiers means it is outsped by stuff like Scarf Keldeo and Latios. Pretty bad coverage which means nothing can really switch in but there are many pokemon that can take it on 1v1, especially when it has already used a move and is now locked in Hydro / Ice Beam / Knock Off which makes it much easier to deal with. Kingdra obviously doesn't have these problems because of a better speed tier, coverage with its secondary typing and it is also the better mon in general when rain is down which is also a pretty important factor. Omastar to B+ = No.
Kyurem-B to A is something I wanted since the start of this VR. Overall it is just a very effective pokemon both on the regular ladder and the no mega ladder. It is really hard to switch into and checks like Ferrothorn or Clefable either take around 45% from a max SpA Ice Beam or are lured in and 2hko'd by HP Fire or Iron Head. Stealth Rock weakness + LO recoil wears it down pretty quickly but Kyurem gets opportunities to Roost against stuff like Raikou, Rotom-W, Tankchomp and Manaphy. Special Offensive sets are the best in breaking defensive cores while still threatening offensive cores because its nice bulk helps him tanking some hits (including priority from Azumarill, unboosted Bisharp and Talonflame) and with the nice coverage it can easily get off damage against offensive teams when it switches in against something like Azu or choice locked pokemon. A rank for me.
No comment on Zygarde and Metagross. Don't feel like they deserve to be on the same rank as Entei and Porygon2 but I haven't used them for a long time (tbh didn't even use regular gross once on no mega ladder) so not going in depth on these noms
I have a legitimate question regarding Donphan. While I know it is a blacklisted Pokemon, in this metagame wouldn't it succeed along with Pokemon like Talonflame and Dragonite, specifically to check the likes of Bisharp, since it would work as a Defensive Spinner that beats Bisharp.
Sorry if I am breaking the rules and whatnot, just wanted to bring up a legitimate question.
Sorry if I am breaking the rules and whatnot, just wanted to bring up a legitimate question.
I am not a moderator or anything for this, but Pokemon under the blacklist section are, well, blacklisted from discussion in this thread. However I assume you can PM Celticpride, -Clone-, and or AM to maybe see of convincing them to remove Donphan from the blacklist, leaving it open for ranking discussions.
How come I didn't get an alert for that ?_?
Anyways, discussion on Donphan? Not the craziest thing in the world imo as long as you don't try to do too much on it. Spinning + 3 attacks seems decent enough. The issue with Donphan as people have always mentioned is when you try to use Donphan as an SR setter AND a spinner AND your lone check to a threat. That puts way too much weight on Donphan's teamslot. Don't see why it isn't viable as long as you understand it can't do everything at once, and that it is outclassed at most of its roles.
E: also I got rid of the blacklist because why not? Unless discussion gets really shit then I might readd something but it seems pointless to restrict discussion.
Anyways, discussion on Donphan? Not the craziest thing in the world imo as long as you don't try to do too much on it. Spinning + 3 attacks seems decent enough. The issue with Donphan as people have always mentioned is when you try to use Donphan as an SR setter AND a spinner AND your lone check to a threat. That puts way too much weight on Donphan's teamslot. Don't see why it isn't viable as long as you understand it can't do everything at once, and that it is outclassed at most of its roles.
E: also I got rid of the blacklist because why not? Unless discussion gets really shit then I might readd something but it seems pointless to restrict discussion.
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I understand that it isn't very good, but I do agree with Donphan for D rank, so I want to nominate Donphan Unranked --> D Rank. It holds a unique niche as a nice check to Bisharp one of the best anti-spinner/defoggers in the tier, and works as a spinner. It lacks innate sustain and has problems handling special mons. It can still lose to Bisharp if it takes to much chip damage though. In general its teamslot is often in competition with other defensive spinners like Starmie or offensive ones like Excadrill.
Donphans role compression is small because as stated ironically above it over exerts itself to do too many things at once. Using donphan means you can't use Excadrill, due to sharing weaknesses with threats such as Keldeo and the majority of offensive waters with the understanding you lost one of the best spinners of the OU enviroment for your team. This comes with the fact that, again as mentioned above, you're using a specific option that holds no real weight in value other than to hap hazardly check one pokemon, and one pokemon that is know for its ability to set up and shave off half of Donphans health after a Swords Dance, Bisharp. This is taking into account that Bisharp isn't even holding an item and teams that have Bisharp either have hazards, high offensive presence to force games into the users hands, or both. Its niche isn't unique because its niche in a realistic setting isn't actually a thing. It's a thing that applies in a calc and illusion that the setting is 110% in Donphans favor. Best to leave it unranked.
I kinda want to spark some discussion on Clefable > S
I don't see any reason for Clef not to go to S, it's pretty much the same piece of aids it is in regular OU without Mega Venu/Gross/Scizor annoying it and although Sand is more viable in OU no mega, Excadrill is pretty easy to handle with a pretty low amount of team support, just throwing on Chesnaught / Rotom-W / Skarmory pretty much handles the issue with it and not to mention Driller takes a lot from Flamethrower. Bisharp and Scizor are really common, but they just get completely screwed by Clefs 4th move, whether it is Twave or Flamethrower.
Pretty short post, but if Clefable can be S rank with megas, I don't see how it isn't S without megas.
I don't see any reason for Clef not to go to S, it's pretty much the same piece of aids it is in regular OU without Mega Venu/Gross/Scizor annoying it and although Sand is more viable in OU no mega, Excadrill is pretty easy to handle with a pretty low amount of team support, just throwing on Chesnaught / Rotom-W / Skarmory pretty much handles the issue with it and not to mention Driller takes a lot from Flamethrower. Bisharp and Scizor are really common, but they just get completely screwed by Clefs 4th move, whether it is Twave or Flamethrower.
Pretty short post, but if Clefable can be S rank with megas, I don't see how it isn't S without megas.
Yeah I can completely see Clef in S. Mega Metagross being gone is great for it and it is an amazing team supporter as well. It is pretty self-sufficient and can run a variety of sets like Calm Mind, T-Wave, Stealth Rock, etc with two great abilities and reliable recovery to take advantage of them. It's checks are taken care of easily (Heatran for Scizor, Pursuit support for Gengar) so Clef can have a field day. Clef for S
You have to realize that Clefable is in S under the idea that it has back up support by these megas. All these really dominant threats in regular OU like Mega Scizor, Char-X, Mega Venusaur, so forth + Clefable being an asset to these forces is one of the big selling points in it in the first place, it support trait. It's a pinnacle of OU but it's a pinnacle for being one of the better non megas in a metagame focused on its megas, not this meta. This isn't really a point for it to go to S more so you can't just assume that the logic is on even playing field when you try and compare and contrast between the two different versions of OU.
Other than what's been stated, I'd say Clefable goes to S on the grounds that the 4th moveslot has so many different options. From utility like SR, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, or Heal Bell to Calm Mind for sweeping or a lure attack, Clefable has the versatility to find a place on a lot of different teams. Not to mention it can do what it wants in front of a decent bunch of the tier, whereas its switchins have to be wary of coming in on the wrong attack. It requires minimum support to be effective, and I'd say gained a decent amount more than it lost with megas leaving.
Toxicroak to B+: It holds a unique niche that it checks/counters everything inside the current S rank tier. It's unique STAB combination hits them all neutrally/SE and the biggest clincher is Dry Skin being able to help him absorb water hits (so immunity to Scald), allowing it to easily revenge BD Azu or come in on a water attack on CB sets. Keldeo suffers a similar fate with both its STABs doing minimal damage to Croak while Bisharp does minimal damage with Dark STABs while getting killed by Croak's Fighting STAB.
Hey guys,it's been a bit of time that this discussion is not active i propose Manaphy for S rank ,because the absence of mega venu,his counter,and mega man his check,makes a threat even more devastating,especially the TG RD set ,can easily eliminate the most common balance core,i hope that this discussion back on,it's really nice tier :)
you can use Hoopa here?
you can use Hoopa here?
Nominating Hoopa-Unbound for A+ rank; Hoopa-U has tremendous potential in the OU (No Mega) metagame as it possesses a completely different level of power to other mons in the tier in the absence of megas. It's ability to go mixed or hit on either side of the spectrum makes it a terrifying threat to face, and equipped with a scarf it can easily outpace most of the tier(hitting the 426 benchmark) and 2HKO most of the tier with the right move(especially since it has Gunk Shot to deal with Fairies and Fighting-type coverage as well); the only thing that might hold this back from S-Rank is its frailty on the physical side, but its bulk on the special side and tremendous offensive stats definitely make Hoopa-U top-tier.
Hi sorry I have been neglecting this thread recently. Meant to start discussion on some stuff before the past weekend but time got away from me. Talked with Cloner a few days ago and here's some of the things we talked about:
Torn-T rise - the question in my view is more A+ or potentially S. Just a beast that outlasts its checks.
Gatr rise - Really powerful and can be pretty hard to switch into with just one DD under its belt.
Celebi drop - Just really passive. Metagame really isn't kind to it overall.
Weavile rise - Fast, strong, good coverage. Not much else to say.
Serp rise - Speed tier is godlike imo and Glare can cripple anything it can't straight up break.
Kyu-B rise - Threatens a ton of fat balanced teams, and those are among the most common in this meta (see: this or this as examples of semi-current fat balanced).
Probably going to look into some drops myself over the next couple days to avoid rank inflation and such.
Don't want to see discussion on Hoopa for a while because that situation is fluid and 85% theorymon at this point.
Torn-T rise - the question in my view is more A+ or potentially S. Just a beast that outlasts its checks.
Gatr rise - Really powerful and can be pretty hard to switch into with just one DD under its belt.
Celebi drop - Just really passive. Metagame really isn't kind to it overall.
Weavile rise - Fast, strong, good coverage. Not much else to say.
Serp rise - Speed tier is godlike imo and Glare can cripple anything it can't straight up break.
Kyu-B rise - Threatens a ton of fat balanced teams, and those are among the most common in this meta (see: this or this as examples of semi-current fat balanced).
Probably going to look into some drops myself over the next couple days to avoid rank inflation and such.
Don't want to see discussion on Hoopa for a while because that situation is fluid and 85% theorymon at this point.
Dislike torn-T as a S or any mon that relies on 70% accuracy stabs as it is unreliable. I always find it hard to nom mons S when it fails you nearly a third of the time.
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