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Resource OU Checks Compendium
- Thread starter Tressed
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Haven't read everything but some of the things I noticed are in bold.
A SSI doesn't have to be able to check every set. If you check Altaria's DD set, but lose against the special set, you're still a SSI. Chansey is a SSI for Manaphy because it beats the TG 3 Attacks set, but it still loses against TG Rain Dance and CM sets. Gastrodon is a SSI because it wins against CM and TG Rain Dance, but it loses to sets with more than 1 offensive move. That being said... (comments in bold)
Hey, that's a really nice thread which helps alot with teambuilding! There are a few things I'd change though:
Bisharp Checks
I'd remove Mega-Sableye from the GSI section, because it gets 2HKO'd by two Jolly Life Orb Iron Heads (factoring in the attack drop caused by burn in the second hit)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKOHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Two Jolly Iron Heads deal around 100%-120% damage. There is also the chance of Bisharp being Adamant Life Orb, Iron Head flinching and Will-o-Wisp missing etc. I'd put it in the SSI section, because it can switch into AV sets, but considering how rare the AV set is and most people run Jolly/Adamant Life Orb SD you can also put it in the NSI section.
Breloom Checks
I don't really get why Mega-Scizor is listed as a GSI. It is turned into setup fodder thanks to Spore and is 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch. It also fails to OHKO Breloom with Bullet Punch.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 175-207 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm not sure if that's the spread people still use but even the bulkiest Scizor has a good chance of getting 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch after Stealth Rocks damage.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 144-172 (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Excadrill Checks
I'd move Bronzong and Rotom-W to SSI section, because both of them can't switch into Moldbreaker Earthquake. (Rotom-W isn't even a GSI to Sand Rush Drill, because +2 Adamant Life Orb Return does a ton of damage: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 224-264 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Weavile Checks
I'd move Azumarill to the SSI section, because it dies to a Knock Off followed by Poison Jab while Aqua Jet doesn't knock out Weavile.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 117-138 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 43.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-307 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Knock Off + Poison Jab does around 97%-115% and there's also Stealth Rocks damage and the chance of your opponent using less HP-EVs and more speed for other Azumarill/Skarmory.
Bisharp Checks
I'd remove Mega-Sableye from the GSI section, because it gets 2HKO'd by two Jolly Life Orb Iron Heads (factoring in the attack drop caused by burn in the second hit)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKOHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Two Jolly Iron Heads deal around 100%-120% damage. There is also the chance of Bisharp being Adamant Life Orb, Iron Head flinching and Will-o-Wisp missing etc. I'd put it in the SSI section, because it can switch into AV sets, but considering how rare the AV set is and most people run Jolly/Adamant Life Orb SD you can also put it in the NSI section.
Breloom Checks
I don't really get why Mega-Scizor is listed as a GSI. It is turned into setup fodder thanks to Spore and is 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch. It also fails to OHKO Breloom with Bullet Punch.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 175-207 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm not sure if that's the spread people still use but even the bulkiest Scizor has a good chance of getting 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch after Stealth Rocks damage.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 144-172 (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Excadrill Checks
I'd move Bronzong and Rotom-W to SSI section, because both of them can't switch into Moldbreaker Earthquake. (Rotom-W isn't even a GSI to Sand Rush Drill, because +2 Adamant Life Orb Return does a ton of damage: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 224-264 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Weavile Checks
I'd move Azumarill to the SSI section, because it dies to a Knock Off followed by Poison Jab while Aqua Jet doesn't knock out Weavile.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 117-138 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 43.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-307 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Knock Off + Poison Jab does around 97%-115% and there's also Stealth Rocks damage and the chance of your opponent using less HP-EVs and more speed for other Azumarill/Skarmory.
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So does the viability ranking take into consideration how many times a Pokemon shows up on more than 1 switch in list?
VR doesn't take this thread into account.
deez nuts I'm so sorry i have to do this for a bet kill me
For the most part the only thing the VR changes is which order the checks are in, not how often they appear.
Also sorry for the delays on updates, got caught up in college work.
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Sorry for small post, but I think Zapdos should be in M-Sceptile SSI (or maybe GSI):
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 124-147 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If it has more than 48 Atk EVs, Rock Slide can 2HKO the SpDef variant after SR (it needs 140 to guarantee the 2HKO after SR). Other than that, it's impossible for M-Sceptile to 2HKO SpDef Zapdos
There are probably more missing mons that Zapdos could be considered a GSI, SSI or NSI to, but I can't verify that for myself at the moment.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 124-147 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If it has more than 48 Atk EVs, Rock Slide can 2HKO the SpDef variant after SR (it needs 140 to guarantee the 2HKO after SR). Other than that, it's impossible for M-Sceptile to 2HKO SpDef Zapdos
There are probably more missing mons that Zapdos could be considered a GSI, SSI or NSI to, but I can't verify that for myself at the moment.
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Alright, thread is up to date atm. There were a few things I went and changed that I probably should have written down (lots of stuff about Gastrodon needing to fish a Scald burn in order to stand a chance against a bunch of mons). I'll try to keep track of changes next time.
I'm really hesitant to add Wobbufett to the checks list because it would end up being added as an NSI to every other offensive mon on the list. If Wobb does get added, I'd prefer to restrict it to GSI / SSI because technically it can kill almost anything, but a lot of the NSIs (specifically the boosting threats) are able to beat Wobb 1v1 if you Encore or CounterCoat at the wrong time.
edit: thanks yuruuu, fixed
I'm really hesitant to add Wobbufett to the checks list because it would end up being added as an NSI to every other offensive mon on the list. If Wobb does get added, I'd prefer to restrict it to GSI / SSI because technically it can kill almost anything, but a lot of the NSIs (specifically the boosting threats) are able to beat Wobb 1v1 if you Encore or CounterCoat at the wrong time.
edit: thanks yuruuu, fixed
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Then, on the basis of your argument, I'd suggest to move Talonflame from M-Sceptile's NSI to GSI (or SSI at least) as without Rock Slide, SpDef Talon isn't OHKOed after SR (or 2HKOed without them). Even with Rock Slide, Talon can Roost-stall until it's at full HP (before the last Rock Slide) and click Brave Bird for the OHKO.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 136-162 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Sceptile Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 312-368 (86.9 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mega Sceptile Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (when Talonflame Roosts)
Then you should also remove some other stuff. Nobody uses LO Clefable, but it's a set on the analysis, so:
- Heatran is 2hko'd by LO Focus Blast and can't OHKO back. Offensive sets can OHKO but Focus Blast is an OHKO after rocks.
- LO Thunderbolt 2hko's Mega Slowbro
- LO Thunderbolt 2hko's Tentacruel
- Focus Blast 2hko's Empoleon and Empoleon can't OHKO back (also gets outsped if Clef runs 8 speed)
- Focus Blast and Fire Blast both 2hko Mega Aggron
- Nidoking is OHKO'd by Ice Beam
- Hoopa-C is 2hko'd by Moonblast and doesn't OHKO back
Nidoqueen, Entei, and Victini can only switch in once so they can also be argued for SSI
Reuniclus with 56 SpD only has a 0.4% chance of losing and Mew with SpDef investment always wins. So that leaves you with 2 GSI's for Clefable
The set on the analysis is 252 SpA, Life Orb, with Soft-Boiled, Moonblast, Fire Blast and Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
Same can be said for Infernape
- Slowking is 2hko'd by LO Thunder Punch
- Tentacruel too
- Jellicent too (idk why this mon is only on the Infernape checks list, should also be added to Keldeo's SSI / GSI depending on how relevant a SpD spread is in OU)
- Heatran is 2hko'd by LO Focus Blast and can't OHKO back. Offensive sets can OHKO but Focus Blast is an OHKO after rocks.
- LO Thunderbolt 2hko's Mega Slowbro
- LO Thunderbolt 2hko's Tentacruel
- Focus Blast 2hko's Empoleon and Empoleon can't OHKO back (also gets outsped if Clef runs 8 speed)
- Focus Blast and Fire Blast both 2hko Mega Aggron
- Nidoking is OHKO'd by Ice Beam
- Hoopa-C is 2hko'd by Moonblast and doesn't OHKO back
Nidoqueen, Entei, and Victini can only switch in once so they can also be argued for SSI
Reuniclus with 56 SpD only has a 0.4% chance of losing and Mew with SpDef investment always wins. So that leaves you with 2 GSI's for Clefable
The set on the analysis is 252 SpA, Life Orb, with Soft-Boiled, Moonblast, Fire Blast and Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
Same can be said for Infernape
- Slowking is 2hko'd by LO Thunder Punch
- Tentacruel too
- Jellicent too (idk why this mon is only on the Infernape checks list, should also be added to Keldeo's SSI / GSI depending on how relevant a SpD spread is in OU)
So, Hippowdon should not be listed as a SSI to Mega Alakazam.
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
He can only switch in on a Shadow Ball, and with just a bit of wear he can get 2hkod by Shadow Ball + Psychic, or even a +1 Psychic.
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
He can only switch in on a Shadow Ball, and with just a bit of wear he can get 2hkod by Shadow Ball + Psychic, or even a +1 Psychic.
The way it works is as follows:
That being said, I'd remove Hippowdon from Zam's GSI because Psychic effectively has a 30% chance to 2hko (with a stat drop).
Mega Alakazam:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 163-193 (38.8 - 45.9%)
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%)
sum: 96.8 - 114.4%, so there's a chance it lives with leftovers and rocks, even after the drop.
Life Orb Alakazam:
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 261-308 (62.1 - 73.3%)
sum: 103.7 - 122.5%, so a guaranteed 2hko if it gets the drop, assuming rocks are up to cancel out with leftovers.
To be honest, I'm not sure what Hippowdon set wins against Zam to begin with.
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 168-198 (66.9 - 78.8%)
So if it wants to actually win the matchup, it's lacking some damage. It's forced to slack off a lot of times so it can get two eqs off.
A stat drop will happen eventually, and it won't get to do two slack offs.
That being said, I'd remove Hippowdon from Zam's GSI because Psychic effectively has a 30% chance to 2hko (with a stat drop).
Mega Alakazam:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 163-193 (38.8 - 45.9%)
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%)
sum: 96.8 - 114.4%, so there's a chance it lives with leftovers and rocks, even after the drop.
Life Orb Alakazam:
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 261-308 (62.1 - 73.3%)
sum: 103.7 - 122.5%, so a guaranteed 2hko if it gets the drop, assuming rocks are up to cancel out with leftovers.
To be honest, I'm not sure what Hippowdon set wins against Zam to begin with.
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 168-198 (66.9 - 78.8%)
So if it wants to actually win the matchup, it's lacking some damage. It's forced to slack off a lot of times so it can get two eqs off.
A stat drop will happen eventually, and it won't get to do two slack offs.
Could you add Mega Pidgeot to the list? It's a legitimate threat, especially with its stallbreaker set ( eats many defensive teams for breakfast and it is able to BS through supposed counters like Rotom-W and Heatran cuz confuse hax is bae).
I would move Mega Altaria down to SSI for MegaZard Y, as while not too common, Modest sets have a good chance of 2HKOing bulky Altaria after rocks.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 143-168 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 143-168 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
hmm, that's interesting; I actually thought there was a MAlt spread to beat both ZardX and ZardY at the same time.
For GSI, the way it is currently handled is that a winning set has to exist (any one will do); it doesn't have to be the main set, and from the looks of it sdef MAlt does the job.
Then again I feel like we're massively encouraging false conclusions. A lot of people seem to assume the standard set will work; in cases like
One way around this would be to overlay the image with a smaller image at the bottom corner. i.e. Adding the letters 'SDEF', or a scarf image for the ones where the check needs to have a scarf. Just flagging everything that isn't the standard set.
This might be possible with CompGen, but I don't have the time to implement it right now.
For GSI, the way it is currently handled is that a winning set has to exist (any one will do); it doesn't have to be the main set, and from the looks of it sdef MAlt does the job.
Then again I feel like we're massively encouraging false conclusions. A lot of people seem to assume the standard set will work; in cases like
- sdef Hippo (GSI to Mega Diancie, mixed doesn't work)
- phys def Hippo (SSI to ZardX, mixed gets 2hkoed by flare blitz)
One way around this would be to overlay the image with a smaller image at the bottom corner. i.e. Adding the letters 'SDEF', or a scarf image for the ones where the check needs to have a scarf. Just flagging everything that isn't the standard set.
This might be possible with CompGen, but I don't have the time to implement it right now.
I feel like this is best. I naturally assumed the "main" set what you would always use for your check, and that SSI depends on what set they are running. Obviously, I didn't read the OP well enough. Maybe having this info at the top would help as well?
The spread you are talking about is the 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD with +Def nature. It's made to avoid the 2HKO from Zard-X's +1 Flare Blitz granted Jolly, and TIMID Zard-Y's Fire Blast, not Modest.
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