Leftovers
Subsitute + Flamethrower
Weather-less offensive
Please =]
Subsitute + Flamethrower
Weather-less offensive
Please =]
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OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
Life Orb
"Well, it doesn't require a whole lot of fleshing out. Assuming that Zoroark ends up without Nasty Plot (not saying I oppose NP, I'm just assuming), it will often lack the power it needs. Zoroark is a Pokemon who cannot settle for 2HKOes and 3HKOes. Once you opponent knows that it's Zoroark, they will not just leave in the Pokemon they had out. They will switch to their Zoroark check. Switching applies to any Pokemon, but it's more important with Zoroark. Zoroark is still a good special attacker without Illusion, but he loses the ability to land that crucial surprise kill as soon as Illusion is lost. And I feel that the crucial surprise kill is what our team will be/should be focusing on capitalizing upon.
If Zoroark is unable to KO the Pokemon it tries to, then it failed to perform its job in that match. The opponent will save his Pokemon. At the very least, Zoroark has to get the 'mon into saccing range. But Dark Pulse is a somewhat weak STAB, and it's not always possible. Life Orb and/or Nasty Plot is all but required to allow Zoroark to get the target to the point at which the opponent cannot save it."
Damn, I typed this last night (when I promised to 'flesh out' another post of mine) but fell asleep before I could post it. I was going to add another paragraph and perhaps improve the quality, but I have no clue what I was going to say next. Posting this anway because it's still an explanation of my vote, just an inferior one to what I planned. I wish I had had the opportunity to make it into a legitimate argument. :(
Nasty Plot +Substitute
I'm afraid that this option seems unpopular compared to Flamethrower. But I don't really think Flamethrower is necessary in tandem with Substitute. I explained most of my reasoning in another post, but Scizor is really the only thing you need Flamethrower for. Ferrothorn would get ideally get smashed by a +2 Focus Blast, Skarmory/Forretress/Metagross are all too specially weak to tank a +2 Focus Blast, Bronzong can't OHKO you with his fairly weak Gyro Ball (getting out-sped and 2HKOed in return), leaving only really Jirachi as a problem. This is not to mention that Flamethrower gets neutered if we run Politoed, which is a distinct possibility.
edit: And since Scizor will just revenge kill you without a Sub up, you don't even need Flamethrower at all, really. What would we use it against?
Balance/Bulky Offense
It bothers me slightly that these two were grouped together, as there are subtle differences in the two playstyles. But I think this will best display Zoroark's talents, as I stated in a previous post. I don't want to get into it again, but it allows us to capitalize on Zoroark's target-kill without being too reckless over it.That's a gross oversimplification of my reasoning, but I felt the need to say something.
Cheers for CCAT! :D
"Well, it doesn't require a whole lot of fleshing out. Assuming that Zoroark ends up without Nasty Plot (not saying I oppose NP, I'm just assuming), it will often lack the power it needs. Zoroark is a Pokemon who cannot settle for 2HKOes and 3HKOes. Once you opponent knows that it's Zoroark, they will not just leave in the Pokemon they had out. They will switch to their Zoroark check. Switching applies to any Pokemon, but it's more important with Zoroark. Zoroark is still a good special attacker without Illusion, but he loses the ability to land that crucial surprise kill as soon as Illusion is lost. And I feel that the crucial surprise kill is what our team will be/should be focusing on capitalizing upon.
If Zoroark is unable to KO the Pokemon it tries to, then it failed to perform its job in that match. The opponent will save his Pokemon. At the very least, Zoroark has to get the 'mon into saccing range. But Dark Pulse is a somewhat weak STAB, and it's not always possible. Life Orb and/or Nasty Plot is all but required to allow Zoroark to get the target to the point at which the opponent cannot save it."
Damn, I typed this last night (when I promised to 'flesh out' another post of mine) but fell asleep before I could post it. I was going to add another paragraph and perhaps improve the quality, but I have no clue what I was going to say next. Posting this anway because it's still an explanation of my vote, just an inferior one to what I planned. I wish I had had the opportunity to make it into a legitimate argument. :(
Nasty Plot +Substitute
I'm afraid that this option seems unpopular compared to Flamethrower. But I don't really think Flamethrower is necessary in tandem with Substitute. I explained most of my reasoning in another post, but Scizor is really the only thing you need Flamethrower for. Ferrothorn would get ideally get smashed by a +2 Focus Blast, Skarmory/Forretress/Metagross are all too specially weak to tank a +2 Focus Blast, Bronzong can't OHKO you with his fairly weak Gyro Ball (getting out-sped and 2HKOed in return), leaving only really Jirachi as a problem. This is not to mention that Flamethrower gets neutered if we run Politoed, which is a distinct possibility.
edit: And since Scizor will just revenge kill you without a Sub up, you don't even need Flamethrower at all, really. What would we use it against?
Balance/Bulky Offense
It bothers me slightly that these two were grouped together, as there are subtle differences in the two playstyles. But I think this will best display Zoroark's talents, as I stated in a previous post. I don't want to get into it again, but it allows us to capitalize on Zoroark's target-kill without being too reckless over it.That's a gross oversimplification of my reasoning, but I felt the need to say something.
Cheers for CCAT! :D
Life Orb
Flamethrower and Nasty Plot
Heavy Offense (Rain or Weatherless)
I also want to bring up a point that I probably should have talked about earlier. Is Focus Blast really necessary for Zoroark? What if we used Grass Knot on Zoroark to get more reliable hits without having to worry about missing. If Nasty Plot is chosen for Zoroark, then I think Grass Knot should be considered for the fox because it hits just about as many things as Focus Blast with the exception of Heatran, but doesn't have the 70% accuracy that can really screw Zoroark over sometimes. If we look at it, Grass Knot turns a few 70% OHKOs into 100% OHKOs such as Terrakion and Tyranitar (you don't have to worry about ChopleTar, who can take a +2 Focus Blast) while letting Zoroark beat new threats like Gastrodon.
I really think Grass Knot should be given some consideration at a later point in the process if Focus Blast's unreliability becomes a problem.
Flamethrower and Nasty Plot
Heavy Offense (Rain or Weatherless)
I also want to bring up a point that I probably should have talked about earlier. Is Focus Blast really necessary for Zoroark? What if we used Grass Knot on Zoroark to get more reliable hits without having to worry about missing. If Nasty Plot is chosen for Zoroark, then I think Grass Knot should be considered for the fox because it hits just about as many things as Focus Blast with the exception of Heatran, but doesn't have the 70% accuracy that can really screw Zoroark over sometimes. If we look at it, Grass Knot turns a few 70% OHKOs into 100% OHKOs such as Terrakion and Tyranitar (you don't have to worry about ChopleTar, who can take a +2 Focus Blast) while letting Zoroark beat new threats like Gastrodon.
I really think Grass Knot should be given some consideration at a later point in the process if Focus Blast's unreliability becomes a problem.
With Focus Blast you are hitting Heatran, Hydreigon, Infernape, Blissey and Chansey at the cost of hitting like, Gastrodon and Politoed. Gastrodon is pretty rare so Politoed is the main draw and it won't like losing a large chunk of health from Dark Pulse either. Focus Blast hits too many things to drop it.
EDIT
+2 Dark Pulse does 83.59 - 98.43% to defensive Politoed, a 75% chance to OHKO with SR
+2 Dark Pulse does 61.5 - 72.53% to tank Gastrodon which isn't much I guess, however, its just one pokemon, and we have a 20% chance to beat if anyway with Dark Pulse flinchs plus its used much less than shit like Heatran, Hydreigon and Blissey. What else would we even use Grass Knot for???
EDIT
+2 Dark Pulse does 83.59 - 98.43% to defensive Politoed, a 75% chance to OHKO with SR
+2 Dark Pulse does 61.5 - 72.53% to tank Gastrodon which isn't much I guess, however, its just one pokemon, and we have a 20% chance to beat if anyway with Dark Pulse flinchs plus its used much less than shit like Heatran, Hydreigon and Blissey. What else would we even use Grass Knot for???
I had to change my vote as I realised I voted for the wrong thing.
Thanks for the vote, guys! Here's the revised moveset:
Zoroark @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
and the playstyle is: Heavy Offense!
OK, so we're finally here! At this initial stage of our team building, we want to prioritize a partner that can form a synergistic relationship with Zoroark. Whatever partner(s) we select should take advantage of Zoroark's Illusion to nab KOs / sweep opportunities and vice versa! Also, please refer to the Team Checklist for the relevant offensive and defensive threats. At this point, formulating an offensive core that can beat the defensive cores presented by Delko's Benelux Stall, M Dragon's Rain Stall, and Expert Physics Speedy Assault is significant. Since this is an Heavy Offensive team, this make sense. Support your nominations by relating them back to these teams!
Hopefully, that provided a good direction for the initial phase of this stage. Put your thinking caps on and let's get cracking!
Make sure when you're making a nomination to disclose the full moveset. You may suggest more than 1 partner, but make sure to clarify whether these partners are meant to be voted together or separately.
Zoroark @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
and the playstyle is: Heavy Offense!
Stage 4 - Teammates
OK, so we're finally here! At this initial stage of our team building, we want to prioritize a partner that can form a synergistic relationship with Zoroark. Whatever partner(s) we select should take advantage of Zoroark's Illusion to nab KOs / sweep opportunities and vice versa! Also, please refer to the Team Checklist for the relevant offensive and defensive threats. At this point, formulating an offensive core that can beat the defensive cores presented by Delko's Benelux Stall, M Dragon's Rain Stall, and Expert Physics Speedy Assault is significant. Since this is an Heavy Offensive team, this make sense. Support your nominations by relating them back to these teams!
Hopefully, that provided a good direction for the initial phase of this stage. Put your thinking caps on and let's get cracking!
Make sure when you're making a nomination to disclose the full moveset. You may suggest more than 1 partner, but make sure to clarify whether these partners are meant to be voted together or separately.
Right lets get started.
Obviously the key move we have here is Substitute, so I would prefer that we run a pokemon that USUALLY runs Protect. It doesn't have to be on its actual set, however, I would prefer that the (for want of a better word) "partner" commonly uses it. For reference, here is a list of pokemon that run Substitute (a very complete list) that are seen in OU (BL included)
I may have missed something so feel free to let me know what I missed and I will add it in.
Obviously, some of these pokemon are not suitable since they either have obvious weaknesses to hazards, or have an ability that makes itself obvious. So, I then went and removed the pokemon that I felt were unsuitable. This was what I had left
Conkeldurr
Gengar
Heatran
Hydreigon
Jirachi
Landorus
Latias
Terrakion
Toxicroak
Mienshao
Of those, some a pretty 50/50 like Mienshao, Heatran, and Toxicroak but I kept them in the list for completeness sake. Haxorus is also meh since its forced to run Rivalry since Mold Breaker gives a visual cue.
Regardless, some of the better choices for Zoroark I feel are
Sub CM Jirachi
Substitute Gengar
Sub CM Latias
Sub Terrakion
Sub Hydreigon
Someone can list the actual sets and get credit for suggesting them, provide a description, etc etc I don't really care since atm my only focus is making a successful CCAT team. If you could all discuss the pokemon I had in my list that would help I think, with finding our first teammates. Personally, I think Gengar is a perfect choice and really should be considered but yea, someone else can nom the set and stuff.
Obviously the key move we have here is Substitute, so I would prefer that we run a pokemon that USUALLY runs Protect. It doesn't have to be on its actual set, however, I would prefer that the (for want of a better word) "partner" commonly uses it. For reference, here is a list of pokemon that run Substitute (a very complete list) that are seen in OU (BL included)
Alakazam
Breloom
Conkeldurr
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Haxorus
Heatran
Hydreigon
Jirachi
Landorus
Latias
Magnezone
Terrakion
Toxicroak
Volcarona
Mienshao
Tyranitar
Abomasnow
Kyurem
Staraptor
Breloom
Conkeldurr
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Haxorus
Heatran
Hydreigon
Jirachi
Landorus
Latias
Magnezone
Terrakion
Toxicroak
Volcarona
Mienshao
Tyranitar
Abomasnow
Kyurem
Staraptor
I may have missed something so feel free to let me know what I missed and I will add it in.
Obviously, some of these pokemon are not suitable since they either have obvious weaknesses to hazards, or have an ability that makes itself obvious. So, I then went and removed the pokemon that I felt were unsuitable. This was what I had left
Conkeldurr
Gengar
Heatran
Hydreigon
Jirachi
Landorus
Latias
Terrakion
Toxicroak
Mienshao
Of those, some a pretty 50/50 like Mienshao, Heatran, and Toxicroak but I kept them in the list for completeness sake. Haxorus is also meh since its forced to run Rivalry since Mold Breaker gives a visual cue.
Regardless, some of the better choices for Zoroark I feel are
Sub CM Jirachi
Substitute Gengar
Sub CM Latias
Sub Terrakion
Sub Hydreigon
Someone can list the actual sets and get credit for suggesting them, provide a description, etc etc I don't really care since atm my only focus is making a successful CCAT team. If you could all discuss the pokemon I had in my list that would help I think, with finding our first teammates. Personally, I think Gengar is a perfect choice and really should be considered but yea, someone else can nom the set and stuff.
I'm gonna make a short list of Zoroark's main counters here, so I know what would make a good teammate. I suggest that other nominations are based on taking on those counters as well, but that's obviously for yourself to decide.
- Blissey / Chansey / Jirachi
- bulky Dragonite
- bulky Ninetales / Volcarona
- Gastrodon / Vaporeon / Tentacruel
- Conkeldurr
Other features that would make for a good Zoroark partner, by being able to disguise as Zoroark well, in order of importance:
- neutrality to Stealth Rock
- hurt by sandstorm
- weak to Spikes
- weak to Toxic Spikes
- hurt by hail
Onto my actual nomination, I suggest that we try a Haxorus, namely the following set:
Haxorus @ Choice Band
Trait: Rivalry
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dual Chop
- Brick Break
Choice Band Haxorus is a real powerhouse, and I think everyone knows how it works. 648 Attack without any setup is incredible, and Outrage 2HKOes pretty much anything that doesn't resist it (with the exception of Intimidate Gyarados and Cresselia) and even OHKOes frailer resists such as Lucario. Haxorus also provides good synergy with Zoroark, as Outrage easily OHKOes Blissey and Chansey, as well as Dragonite even with Multiscale up if it's the same gender, lures in and OHKOes Jirachi with Earthquake, outspeeds and OHKOes bulky Ninetales and Volcarona, and finally resist Water-type moves and OHKOes the bulky Waters mentioned with Outrage. Vaporeon avoids the OHKO, but takes 75 - 88% which is still a ton and a KO with a bit of residual damage.
Haxorus is also able to disguise as Zoroark well, as it is neutral to Stealth Rock, and also hit by all of Spikes, Toxic Spikes, sand, and hail which makes it hard to tell if it's really Zoroark or Haxorus. If we want, we can change this set for a double dance set with Dragon Dance / Swords Dance / Outrage / Earthquake, but we can always change similar things in a later stage.
- Blissey / Chansey / Jirachi
- bulky Dragonite
- bulky Ninetales / Volcarona
- Gastrodon / Vaporeon / Tentacruel
- Conkeldurr
Other features that would make for a good Zoroark partner, by being able to disguise as Zoroark well, in order of importance:
- neutrality to Stealth Rock
- hurt by sandstorm
- weak to Spikes
- weak to Toxic Spikes
- hurt by hail
Onto my actual nomination, I suggest that we try a Haxorus, namely the following set:
Haxorus @ Choice Band
Trait: Rivalry
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dual Chop
- Brick Break
Choice Band Haxorus is a real powerhouse, and I think everyone knows how it works. 648 Attack without any setup is incredible, and Outrage 2HKOes pretty much anything that doesn't resist it (with the exception of Intimidate Gyarados and Cresselia) and even OHKOes frailer resists such as Lucario. Haxorus also provides good synergy with Zoroark, as Outrage easily OHKOes Blissey and Chansey, as well as Dragonite even with Multiscale up if it's the same gender, lures in and OHKOes Jirachi with Earthquake, outspeeds and OHKOes bulky Ninetales and Volcarona, and finally resist Water-type moves and OHKOes the bulky Waters mentioned with Outrage. Vaporeon avoids the OHKO, but takes 75 - 88% which is still a ton and a KO with a bit of residual damage.
Haxorus is also able to disguise as Zoroark well, as it is neutral to Stealth Rock, and also hit by all of Spikes, Toxic Spikes, sand, and hail which makes it hard to tell if it's really Zoroark or Haxorus. If we want, we can change this set for a double dance set with Dragon Dance / Swords Dance / Outrage / Earthquake, but we can always change similar things in a later stage.
I thought I'd just point out that if a parnter is using substitute, it absolutely can't run Leftovers unless we change Zoroark's moveset again. For example, I would never dream of using SubCM Jirachi without leftovers, and since it is also resistant to SR and Sandstorm, I think it makes a poor choice. I wouldn't worry about Life Orbs though. When Zoroark has come in once already, and almost certainly if it has attacked, you are probably going to require some serious luck if you want to fool the opponent again, pretty much regardless of movesets and items.
Also, I really like the look of the Haxorus. It really fits well with Zoroark in terms of counters, and residual damage. I myself would actually lean towards some sort of DD set though. If the opponent makes a mistake, their Skarmory or Ferrothorn could easily be destroyed by Flamethrower, at which point you could be looking at a sweep. The opponent could also easily grant Haxorus two Dragon Dances if they make a mistake, which is very often gg.
So, I must ask, is Sub + DD Haxorus a decent set? Is there a good item it can run other than Leftovers? Because at the moment, I must say that this looks ideal from an illusion point of view.
Also, I really like the look of the Haxorus. It really fits well with Zoroark in terms of counters, and residual damage. I myself would actually lean towards some sort of DD set though. If the opponent makes a mistake, their Skarmory or Ferrothorn could easily be destroyed by Flamethrower, at which point you could be looking at a sweep. The opponent could also easily grant Haxorus two Dragon Dances if they make a mistake, which is very often gg.
So, I must ask, is Sub + DD Haxorus a decent set? Is there a good item it can run other than Leftovers? Because at the moment, I must say that this looks ideal from an illusion point of view.
Sub DD I assume is fine, although personally I like Sub + SD better. Item wise I would prolly prefer to run Draco Plate if we were trying to avoid leftovers, since it doesn't give a visual cue, and boosts the power of Haxorus
I think there's a risk of looking at this in a very limited way. Using teammates, like ginga did, exclusively because they commonly use Sub and thus further your Illusion, only seems like the right course of action up to a certain point. For instance, the Substitute + DD Haxorus example is the most meritorious suggestion I've seen precisely because Hax almost never runs Substitute. Therefore the opponent is inclined to think its Zoroark, and therefore will be cautious about using something like Skarmory which is actually a 100% counter to the set.
The only problem is that as soon as you use any move other than Sub you give the game away. Because of this, Sub + SD looks like a better way to go for me. Not only is it a much better wallbreaker, especially since you still get Substitute's safety blanket and so don't miss the speed boost so much, but Zoroark does run SD occasionally so there's still an element of doubt for an extra turn.
EDIT: Ginganinja'd. Sub + SD etc
The only problem is that as soon as you use any move other than Sub you give the game away. Because of this, Sub + SD looks like a better way to go for me. Not only is it a much better wallbreaker, especially since you still get Substitute's safety blanket and so don't miss the speed boost so much, but Zoroark does run SD occasionally so there's still an element of doubt for an extra turn.
EDIT: Ginganinja'd. Sub + SD etc
Bubbly, you have to remember that this team is going to be sitting right out in the open. People are going to spot it pretty quickly. This means you will probably not get that extra turn of doubt you were looking for; people will know Zoroark does not have SD, and regardless, would probably switch in a physical wall. Plus, how many turns of doubt do you need? By the the time you've used Sub, you've already had two.
We should only use Sub + SD if it is a more effective set than Sub + DD, excluding Zoroark's moves. In my opinion, we should be looking to set up a sweep using Illusion, which is why I suggested DD.
We should only use Sub + SD if it is a more effective set than Sub + DD, excluding Zoroark's moves. In my opinion, we should be looking to set up a sweep using Illusion, which is why I suggested DD.
Gengar @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Pain Split / Disable / Thunderbolt / HP Fire
Not sure which Sub set is the best here. SubSplit could mess with HP too much to keep up an effective Illusion, but SubDisable would probably be better off with Lefties. Three attacks is always an option, too. I think it's established that Gengar is a pretty good partner for Zoroark, so this is mainly to get the ball rolling on that last moveslot and the item, but there is another thing I wanted to bring up. Gengar is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, whereas Zoro is not. Keeping hazards away will be crucial to the surprise factor. Rather than run a spinner, we could use Espeon.
Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power / Substitute
- HP Fighting
Magic Bounce helps immensely with keeping hazards off the field. The Baton Passer could be used to quickly get things boosts and reduce need for specially-based set up, or...
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psychic
- HP Fighting / Wish
The dual screener could make set up in general a lot easier. Personally, I like the dual screener a bit more because it could help, oh, I dunno, Haxorus set up. It fits well with Hyper Offense if we go down that path, too.
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Pain Split / Disable / Thunderbolt / HP Fire
Not sure which Sub set is the best here. SubSplit could mess with HP too much to keep up an effective Illusion, but SubDisable would probably be better off with Lefties. Three attacks is always an option, too. I think it's established that Gengar is a pretty good partner for Zoroark, so this is mainly to get the ball rolling on that last moveslot and the item, but there is another thing I wanted to bring up. Gengar is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, whereas Zoro is not. Keeping hazards away will be crucial to the surprise factor. Rather than run a spinner, we could use Espeon.
Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power / Substitute
- HP Fighting
Magic Bounce helps immensely with keeping hazards off the field. The Baton Passer could be used to quickly get things boosts and reduce need for specially-based set up, or...
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psychic
- HP Fighting / Wish
The dual screener could make set up in general a lot easier. Personally, I like the dual screener a bit more because it could help, oh, I dunno, Haxorus set up. It fits well with Hyper Offense if we go down that path, too.
@ jc: It's a tricky one. I'm not personally of the opinion that, just because we're RMT'ing this, we should abandon any attempt to surprise opponents with individual movesets. Surprise should be given less weighting, not ignored altogether. I'd like to hear someone else's thoughts on this though.
Alright, I just want to layout some thoughts about how we're thinking about this illusion thing.
1. Remember that the opponent doesn't know we're running Substitute on Zoroark until they see it use it when they know it's Zoroark. They also don't know if we're running Substitute on any of the partners either. So when either Zoroark or the partner uses Substitute, the opponent still won't know which it is. This means the partners don't have to actually have substitute on their set; they just have to something that you might expect would use it. The same goes for items; the opponent doesn't know we're running Life Orb, so if one of the partners is running leftovers, the opponent doesn't know that it's not Zoroark unless Zoroark has already done something.
2. We need to stop assuming that most people will have read about our team. Believe it or not, the vast majority of people playing on the smogon server don't do much on the forums at all, and even some that do won't have looked at these posts. Sure there will be some that recognize the team and will use it against us, but shit, we shouldn't've chosen Zoroark in the first place if we were really worried about that.
3. Haxorus is perfect as a partner for Zororark. Not only does it take the same passive damage, but what really puts it over the edge is that Haxorus is a Pokemon you can't afford to take chances with. If you give it the chance to set up or attack something that isn't resisted, you just lost something vital. It essentially forces the opponent into a deadly guessing game, where if they pick wrong they lose a key part of their team. It's scary enough facing Haxorus at all and not knowing what set it's using, without having to worry whether it could be Zororark to boot!
4. If we can keep hazards off the field then it'll make maintaining that illusion a lot easier, so a spinner is necessary. As such, I suggest LO Starmie as a teammate. Asside from spinning, it also is a very powerful special attacker and potent revenge killer, with resistances to Mach and Bullet Punch to boot. It can also function as an illusion partner, taking the same hazard damage as Zoroark. Zoroark disguised as it can easily lure in spinblockers to demolish with Dark Pulse, making keeping hazards off the field easier. It can also lure in and destroy Tyranitar. All in all, seems like a good partner to me.
EDIT: Since Pocket wanted an actual full set, here's the general standard for Starmie.
@ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf
We can always change it around if we want to as well, but for starters this should be fine. Something like Trick-Specs could be fun though, screwing with Blissey and Chansey and the like for Zoroark, but I'll just go with the safe option for start.
EDIT: Just read Alexwolf's post and if we want to run Rain Dance on this Starmie that'd be no problem at all. Then we can swap out Thunderbolt for thunder and fire off boosted Hydro Pumps. Only issue with that is we lose Ice beam, meaning we also lose the ability to revenge a number of dragons, meaning we'd need something else to solidly check/counter them.
1. Remember that the opponent doesn't know we're running Substitute on Zoroark until they see it use it when they know it's Zoroark. They also don't know if we're running Substitute on any of the partners either. So when either Zoroark or the partner uses Substitute, the opponent still won't know which it is. This means the partners don't have to actually have substitute on their set; they just have to something that you might expect would use it. The same goes for items; the opponent doesn't know we're running Life Orb, so if one of the partners is running leftovers, the opponent doesn't know that it's not Zoroark unless Zoroark has already done something.
2. We need to stop assuming that most people will have read about our team. Believe it or not, the vast majority of people playing on the smogon server don't do much on the forums at all, and even some that do won't have looked at these posts. Sure there will be some that recognize the team and will use it against us, but shit, we shouldn't've chosen Zoroark in the first place if we were really worried about that.
3. Haxorus is perfect as a partner for Zororark. Not only does it take the same passive damage, but what really puts it over the edge is that Haxorus is a Pokemon you can't afford to take chances with. If you give it the chance to set up or attack something that isn't resisted, you just lost something vital. It essentially forces the opponent into a deadly guessing game, where if they pick wrong they lose a key part of their team. It's scary enough facing Haxorus at all and not knowing what set it's using, without having to worry whether it could be Zororark to boot!
4. If we can keep hazards off the field then it'll make maintaining that illusion a lot easier, so a spinner is necessary. As such, I suggest LO Starmie as a teammate. Asside from spinning, it also is a very powerful special attacker and potent revenge killer, with resistances to Mach and Bullet Punch to boot. It can also function as an illusion partner, taking the same hazard damage as Zoroark. Zoroark disguised as it can easily lure in spinblockers to demolish with Dark Pulse, making keeping hazards off the field easier. It can also lure in and destroy Tyranitar. All in all, seems like a good partner to me.
EDIT: Since Pocket wanted an actual full set, here's the general standard for Starmie.
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf
We can always change it around if we want to as well, but for starters this should be fine. Something like Trick-Specs could be fun though, screwing with Blissey and Chansey and the like for Zoroark, but I'll just go with the safe option for start.
EDIT: Just read Alexwolf's post and if we want to run Rain Dance on this Starmie that'd be no problem at all. Then we can swap out Thunderbolt for thunder and fire off boosted Hydro Pumps. Only issue with that is we lose Ice beam, meaning we also lose the ability to revenge a number of dragons, meaning we'd need something else to solidly check/counter them.
@ginganinja, all of the Sub users you listed are fine except Hydreigon and Latias. Both sub users always run Lefties, so the moment they don't see it they will know that they have Zororark in front of them.
Of 'course we could still be in a favorable position if the opponent brings his Scizor to counter the fake Latias, as then he will have to switch out, so Latias is not entirely out of the question, but Hydreigon is, imo, because he has almost identical counters to Zoroark, so everything that walls her is going to wall Zoroark too...
Anyway here is my nomination:
@ Rock Gem
nature: Jolly
trait: Justified
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
What are the first pokes that someone would bring into Terrakion? Skarmory, BP Metagross, Jellicent, Hippowdon, Mew, Slowbro, Reuniclus, Gliscor and even Scizor if someone is expecting a set-up. All of them are either straight-up ohkoed or are easily 2hkoed, leaving them unable to survive Terrakion's incoming assault. Terrakion also beats some of the pokes that wall Zoroark such as the pink blobs and Volcarona, so it's not a one sided partnership.
The obvious problem is that Terrakion takes resisted damage from SR and the fact that he is ss immune.
The first problem is solved by carrying a solid spinner, which in a heavy offense team will most probably be Starmie.
The second ''problem'', which is not as much of a problem, but a nuisance, because by the time the opponent realizes that Terrakion is not Terrakion, they will already be in a tough position, can be solved with 4 ways.
The first is to carry a Politoed of our own, most likely Scarf, to cancel sandstorm whenever we plan on bringing Zoroark out. Even in rain, Zoroark isn't particularly troubled though, because it can still ohko the main target of Flamethrower, Scizor after SR. All in all, rain will not be casualy up anyway if we decide to use Politoed as a revenge killer, so Zoroark's performance won't be hindered, but we will have the option of canceling sandstorm if the need really arises.
The second solution is to pick Abomasnow, which cancels ss and brings hail, which damages both Terrakion and Zoroark. Whether this would be bad enough to prevent us from using Abomasnow in the team or not, is another discussion, because now i am only stating possible solutions.
The third option is to do nothing and accept the fact that 25% of our games will have sand, and so our Zoroark will not be able to kill a Terrakion's counter/check, but he will still be able to force the opponent to switch out.
Finally the fourth option, that is somewhat gimmicky, but should be addressed anyway is the possibility of running Rain Dance on the Starmie that we will almost surely have on the team. MX5 Dragon has used this set to great success so we could definitely try it out!
Of 'course we could still be in a favorable position if the opponent brings his Scizor to counter the fake Latias, as then he will have to switch out, so Latias is not entirely out of the question, but Hydreigon is, imo, because he has almost identical counters to Zoroark, so everything that walls her is going to wall Zoroark too...
Anyway here is my nomination:
@ Rock Gemnature: Jolly
trait: Justified
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
What are the first pokes that someone would bring into Terrakion? Skarmory, BP Metagross, Jellicent, Hippowdon, Mew, Slowbro, Reuniclus, Gliscor and even Scizor if someone is expecting a set-up. All of them are either straight-up ohkoed or are easily 2hkoed, leaving them unable to survive Terrakion's incoming assault. Terrakion also beats some of the pokes that wall Zoroark such as the pink blobs and Volcarona, so it's not a one sided partnership.
The obvious problem is that Terrakion takes resisted damage from SR and the fact that he is ss immune.
The first problem is solved by carrying a solid spinner, which in a heavy offense team will most probably be Starmie.
The second ''problem'', which is not as much of a problem, but a nuisance, because by the time the opponent realizes that Terrakion is not Terrakion, they will already be in a tough position, can be solved with 4 ways.
The first is to carry a Politoed of our own, most likely Scarf, to cancel sandstorm whenever we plan on bringing Zoroark out. Even in rain, Zoroark isn't particularly troubled though, because it can still ohko the main target of Flamethrower, Scizor after SR. All in all, rain will not be casualy up anyway if we decide to use Politoed as a revenge killer, so Zoroark's performance won't be hindered, but we will have the option of canceling sandstorm if the need really arises.
The second solution is to pick Abomasnow, which cancels ss and brings hail, which damages both Terrakion and Zoroark. Whether this would be bad enough to prevent us from using Abomasnow in the team or not, is another discussion, because now i am only stating possible solutions.
The third option is to do nothing and accept the fact that 25% of our games will have sand, and so our Zoroark will not be able to kill a Terrakion's counter/check, but he will still be able to force the opponent to switch out.
Finally the fourth option, that is somewhat gimmicky, but should be addressed anyway is the possibility of running Rain Dance on the Starmie that we will almost surely have on the team. MX5 Dragon has used this set to great success so we could definitely try it out!
Toxicroak. It has sucker punch and can bluff both a NP set or an SD set. Psychic attacks go to the real Zoroark, fighting goes to Croak. I would run a Levitator because Zoroark is not the bulkiest thing around and that is a big weakness for Toxicroak. The only reason Toxicroak isn't the best is that the SR damage isn't there. Also, if your opponent has Toxic Spikes up you will absorb them, breaking your illusion.
Right now, SubSD Terrakion and some form of Substitute Haxorus look like the two best options to me. Keeping with our idea of hyper offense, I really like how both of these Pokemon are EXTREMELY threatening, to the point where you can't make mistakes around them.
Also, Zoroark and Haxorus/Terrakion have brilliant offensive synergy. Haxorus and Terrakion both draw in Skarmory, Gliscor, and Scizor, all of which are destroyed by our current Zoroark set simply by setting up a Substitute on the switch.
Obviously, Zoroark and Haxorus/Terrakion don't have great defensive synergy; they don't really cover each other's weaknesses at all. But that doesn't matter. You shouldn't really be worrying about any of these Pokemon taking hits, because by the very act of bringing them in you are forcing your opponent onto their back foot and scaring them shitless of predicting the Zoroark incorrectly.
Pretty much this, and Terrakion is the same thing. Only issue is Stealth Rock, in which case we need a spinner.
Also, Zoroark and Haxorus/Terrakion have brilliant offensive synergy. Haxorus and Terrakion both draw in Skarmory, Gliscor, and Scizor, all of which are destroyed by our current Zoroark set simply by setting up a Substitute on the switch.
Obviously, Zoroark and Haxorus/Terrakion don't have great defensive synergy; they don't really cover each other's weaknesses at all. But that doesn't matter. You shouldn't really be worrying about any of these Pokemon taking hits, because by the very act of bringing them in you are forcing your opponent onto their back foot and scaring them shitless of predicting the Zoroark incorrectly.
SubSD Terrakion is the best partner IMO. Like said, 1 mistake and it sweeps you and Terrakion doesn't commonly carry Lefties so that is good. This could really mess up the opponent; if it is Terrakion then yeah go switch in that Slowbro. If it isn't Zoroark can easily KO slowbro with a LO boosted STAB dark pulse and set the stage for a Terrakion sweep.
Personally I'm an advocate of Haxorous, specifically CB Haxorous because it just tears through Zoroark's counters, and if the opponent dares to bring in a skarm, Forry, or really any defensive steel type switch-in they run the risk of getting OHKO'd or at least brought down to sturdy. Both are neutral to rocks, and weather, meaning it'll be imposible to differentiate unless they have prior damage or come in on an attack. Having to run the risk of losing your best check/counter to CB Haxorous and vice versa for Zoro is a pretty terrifying prospect.
For all those people loving Sub SD Terrakion (and yea I kinda love it too) we have GOT to remember that a) SR needs to be off the field and b) Sandstorm isn't up otherwise it breaks our illusion. Since I don't wish to force ourselves to run Sun / Rain / Hail / random weather AND a spinner / Magic Bounce user so early in the team, I much rather prefer Haxorus (even tho Sub Haxorus is pretty uncommon but w/e I guess).
Possibly crazy thought - what about Tornadus with priority Taunt to keep rocks away and priority Rain Dance to handle the weather thing? I don't know if a Rain Dance/Taunt/U-turn/Hurricane set would be at all viable as a lead.