This.
Besides, Celebi's HP Fire isn't that weak when compared to Latias'.
And having something that can take a burn (Gliscor won't always be able to get its Toxic Orb rolling turn 1) is a very, very good bonus.
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OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)
- Thread starter Electrolyte
- Start date
This.
Besides, Celebi's HP Fire isn't that weak when compared to Latias'.
And having something that can take a burn (Gliscor won't always be able to get its Toxic Orb rolling turn 1) is a very, very good bonus.
You might have to tell us what exact Celebi set you want. At the moment im seeing people bring up moves such as Leaf Storm, Psychic, HP Fire, U-Turn, Baton Pass and Recover, so for us to make a fair comparison, it would help if we could actually decide on a moveset lol.
Regardless, prolly part of the reason why this team struggles with Rain Offence, is because we have a terrible matchup vs it lol. Toed / Gene / Duggy / Torn-T / Scarf Keldeo / Starmie [ Tentacruel ] is a pretty standard Rain team, and its hard for us to break when Duggy eliminates Tyranitar and Terrakion, Tornadus can spam Hurricane all day, every day, and Keldeo simply cleans up late game. If we want to be able to beat rain, the above team is prolly a good example of what we want to beat.
Lastly, just be careful with Celebi over Latias. It helps vs Breloom, but Thundurus-T becomes far more dangerous, with any set using LO being difficult to switch in on (and Agility easily sweeping). Its not hard for it to get a free Agility on Gliscor, or even force out our possible Celebi (there will be circumstances where you will not want / be able to Psychic it, especially as its our rain check). Do also bear in mind that Celebi opens us up to Tornadus-T gaining easy momentum, Kyurem-B becomes trickier, currently Genesect U-Turns, and yes, its still pursuit weak. Some of these also apply to Latias, but I encourage people to look ahead, and see if Celebi (or Shaymin) opens us up to any other threats.
Regardless, prolly part of the reason why this team struggles with Rain Offence, is because we have a terrible matchup vs it lol. Toed / Gene / Duggy / Torn-T / Scarf Keldeo / Starmie [ Tentacruel ] is a pretty standard Rain team, and its hard for us to break when Duggy eliminates Tyranitar and Terrakion, Tornadus can spam Hurricane all day, every day, and Keldeo simply cleans up late game. If we want to be able to beat rain, the above team is prolly a good example of what we want to beat.
Lastly, just be careful with Celebi over Latias. It helps vs Breloom, but Thundurus-T becomes far more dangerous, with any set using LO being difficult to switch in on (and Agility easily sweeping). Its not hard for it to get a free Agility on Gliscor, or even force out our possible Celebi (there will be circumstances where you will not want / be able to Psychic it, especially as its our rain check). Do also bear in mind that Celebi opens us up to Tornadus-T gaining easy momentum, Kyurem-B becomes trickier, currently Genesect U-Turns, and yes, its still pursuit weak. Some of these also apply to Latias, but I encourage people to look ahead, and see if Celebi (or Shaymin) opens us up to any other threats.
Ferrothorn easily gets 3 layers vs Celebi in rain. Resisting power whip and being immune to leech seed isnt everything when it comes down to "beating" Ferrothorn. If Ferro can easily set-up all its hazards vs Celebi then thats not a good match-up, especially considering how much our team hates Spikes already.
This is assuming we run a SDef Celebi. LO and other offensive sets can potentially break Ferrothorn whilst not giving it a ton of set-up oppurtunities but is really not good at switching in on Keldeo.
This is assuming we run a SDef Celebi. LO and other offensive sets can potentially break Ferrothorn whilst not giving it a ton of set-up oppurtunities but is really not good at switching in on Keldeo.
I am talking about this Celebi set:
Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 112 Spd / 140 HP / 4 SDef / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
Grass Knot is used so that we can avoid getting Pursuit trapped by the Tyranitar that is paired with most Keldeo, CBTar, as after SR we have a solid chance of OHKOing it. Against Scizor Celebi fares better than Latias too, because if Scizor goes for the BP instead of Pusruit against Latias and Celebi here are the damage calcs:
As you can see Celebi takes much less from BP, and can tank one water hit from Scarf Keldeo in rain afterwards, unlike Latias. And Celebi fares just fine against Thund-T as long as it avoids switchint into HP Ice. Psychic does 70.56 - 83.61% to Thund-T, 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR, and sure OHKO after SR and 1 LO round. Yeah Latias fares better against Thund-T, but it's not as if Celebi is useless against it, and Thund-T it's not the biggest issue of the team anyway. The only real problem if we go with Celebi is that we won't have something to deal with Venusaur. Btw Latias is not the best solution anyway because +2 Sludge Bomb OHKOes after SR, and Venusaur can set-up against Keldeo, Terrakion locked into CC, Gliscor, and even Bronzong, which means that Latias is not exactly a good solution to Venusaur either.
Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 112 Spd / 140 HP / 4 SDef / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
Grass Knot is used so that we can avoid getting Pursuit trapped by the Tyranitar that is paired with most Keldeo, CBTar, as after SR we have a solid chance of OHKOing it. Against Scizor Celebi fares better than Latias too, because if Scizor goes for the BP instead of Pusruit against Latias and Celebi here are the damage calcs:
As you can see Celebi takes much less from BP, and can tank one water hit from Scarf Keldeo in rain afterwards, unlike Latias. And Celebi fares just fine against Thund-T as long as it avoids switchint into HP Ice. Psychic does 70.56 - 83.61% to Thund-T, 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR, and sure OHKO after SR and 1 LO round. Yeah Latias fares better against Thund-T, but it's not as if Celebi is useless against it, and Thund-T it's not the biggest issue of the team anyway. The only real problem if we go with Celebi is that we won't have something to deal with Venusaur. Btw Latias is not the best solution anyway because +2 Sludge Bomb OHKOes after SR, and Venusaur can set-up against Keldeo, Terrakion locked into CC, Gliscor, and even Bronzong, which means that Latias is not exactly a good solution to Venusaur either.
Yes, it's true that Celebi fairs better against Tyranitar, but are we really going to rely on a 62% chance to beat Tyranitar? If it's Choice Band (which is by far the most common Tyranitar set when paired with Keldeo) then it's Pursuit does 39.89% - 46.81% to Celebi if it stays in, add having to switchin to Stealth Rock, 2 turns of Life Orb damage if we get unlucky with the 62% chance, and 2 turns of sandstorm damage, then we're looking at 39.89 to 46.81 + 12.5 + 10 + 10 + 6.25 + 6.25 = 84.89 to 91.81. This means that Celebi will either be dead upon switching back in to Stealth Rock or, in the best case scenario, we're withing KO range of Keldeo. Meaning, we're literally relying on a lower chance than Focus Blast hitting to not lose Celebi and get mauled by Keldeo.
Also, Grass Knot is kinda terrible against pretty much anything other than Tyranitar. It has like 20 BP against Rotom-W, meaning Rotom-W really isn't that scared of our Celebi, yes we have Psychic, but it will not do very much to the standard specially defensive variants, which can then Volt Switch out to something that threatens Celebi. This means that Celebi is not very good as a Rotom-W check (and if Celebi replaces Latias it will be our primary one) because if Celebi comes in on Rotom-W then the opponent will just see it as a free switch and then gain momentum (which is very important in the current meta.)
Avoiding having to switchin on Hidden Power [Ice] is easier said than done, if the opponent predicts correctly, we'll have to sac something every time Thundurus-T comes out because it does mass amounts to all our pokemon while we can't do much in return with the correct coverage move. Although this is unlikely it's still possible that your opponent will predict perfectly and if Celebi comes in on Hidden Power [Ice], it takes 56.91% - 67.55%. Thundurus-T is going to do a ton of damage to Celebi even if we switch in on something like Thunder, and it's very likely Celebi will be weakened to the point it will barely be able to switch in on Stealth Rocks, let alone an attack. With Celebi's lacluster speed it will have a very hard time finding an oppurtunity to come back in and use Recover, and having to sac our main water resist on a threat that is often found in rain, with our only alternative being saccing something else unless we make really risky switches is far from reliable.
Sash Alakzam is pretty cool back up / emergency check yo many things, but it shouldn't be used as a primary check to anything. The reason for this is that it simply can't switch in on the likes of Venusaur and other sweepers, if it switches in on a move then it's screwed, we'd have to sac something pretty much every time Venusaur comes out for this to work. If we use Thunder Wave as our only way of checking Volcarona then what happens if it's Lum Berry? Or sub? Or maybe even Chesto Rest? In that case we'd be completely and utterly screwed. Alakazam also shouldn't be used as a primary check to anything in case the opponent has 2 sweepers on the same team, we'd have to choose which one to check with alakazam, making a sweep pretty likely.
I also think Celebi makes us even more rain weak, it takes (38.30% - 45.48%) from +0 Keldeo in the rain, and 57.71% - 68.09% from Specs Keldeo in the rain, an easy 2HKO. Although Latias takes similiar damage, the difference is that Latias is way faster than Celebi, it can switch in on a hit from the likes of Keldeo and then outspeed and OHKO. Celebi's also much worse against Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T etc. And although it's true that Celebi fairs better aginst Ferrothorn that Latias, the calcs you listed are barely 3HKOs under rain and if Ferrothorn carries Protect, then Hidden Power [Fire] is only going to be 4HKOing, resulting in Ferrothorn still getting up 3 layers of hazards. Overall, Celebi may be better than Latias against Keldtar, assuming we're lucky enough, and it's a bit better against Ferrothorn in the rain (even though I'd still say Taunt Gliscor is a better switch-in) but it's weaker to everything else. I'm not trying to say Celebi is bad, but I think Latias is better for the team.
The chance for Celebi to OHKO BandTar is just fine. When factoring the crit chance Grass Knot has ~66% chance to OHKO BandTar after SR, which means that in two out of three games that we face this combo, Celebi will come out on top. This is perfectly fine with me. And this discussion has meaning only if BandTar comes into the battlefield unscathed, which many times won't happen, so actually the chances for Celebi to beat Ttar become even better than 66%. And Latias outright loses anyway, so i don't see what we are arguing here. Celebi wins the majority of times where Latias always loses, simple as that.
Grass Knot is not terrible against anything else not named Ttar. Actually Grass Knot hits harder than Giga Drain the majority of the OU pokes that are neutral or weak to grass, with the exceptions of Rotom-W, Keldeo, and Politoed. Against Politoed the difference is small and we still 2HKO all variants, Keldeo is taken care of by Psychic, so only Rotom-W is left uncovered. And Rotom-W doesn't enjoy one bit taking Psychic, which does 40.26 - 48.18% to SpD Rotom-W. Celebi still walls Rotom-W and can damage it heaviliy, just not that fast. Whether this will be enough or not will be judged by the community, but to say that Celebi cannot deal with Rotom-W without Giga Drain is simply false.
About Thund-T. As i said again it comes down to prediction, but at least we have the means to check it, and this is enough for me. We are running an offensive team so it is only normal we won't be able to comfortably counter anything. Thund-T can put big stress to the team, and threaten to OHKO something everytime it comes in exactly as CB Terrakion, CB Dragonite, LO Starmie and many more pokes, so i don't see how it is an issue. We have Keldeo and Terrakion to outspeed and OHKO, and Celebi and Bronzong that can take a hit and hit it back hard, while even Gliscor and Ttar help against choiced sets, so i don't think that it is a big concern.
Finally i would argue the opposite of what you said, Celebi makes handling rain teams easier, as it has the lovely Grass STAB that they loath and does not give a fuck about Scald burns, making it much more ressilient. I don't see why you mention Torn-T while we have a Bronzong in our team, one of its best checks. We also have an offensive team, so most of the time Zong will be able to hold back Torn-T long enough so that we can win the game. Not to mention that Torn-T is lured easily and destroyed by Celebi if SR is up, something that Latias can't do. So my opinion is that with Celebi we fare much better against rain teams than with Latias (as i said again many offensive rain teams struggle to take hits from Celebi once it gets in if they lack Jirachi). And let's not talk about HP Fire as Latias and Celebi have exactly the same firepower so any discussion about it is pointless. Celebi still deals better than Latias against Ferro though for reasons already mentioned.
Regarding SashZam... Maybe you are right, but i still feel that we should explore all the possibilities, and i was merely throwing out ideas anyway...
Grass Knot is not terrible against anything else not named Ttar. Actually Grass Knot hits harder than Giga Drain the majority of the OU pokes that are neutral or weak to grass, with the exceptions of Rotom-W, Keldeo, and Politoed. Against Politoed the difference is small and we still 2HKO all variants, Keldeo is taken care of by Psychic, so only Rotom-W is left uncovered. And Rotom-W doesn't enjoy one bit taking Psychic, which does 40.26 - 48.18% to SpD Rotom-W. Celebi still walls Rotom-W and can damage it heaviliy, just not that fast. Whether this will be enough or not will be judged by the community, but to say that Celebi cannot deal with Rotom-W without Giga Drain is simply false.
About Thund-T. As i said again it comes down to prediction, but at least we have the means to check it, and this is enough for me. We are running an offensive team so it is only normal we won't be able to comfortably counter anything. Thund-T can put big stress to the team, and threaten to OHKO something everytime it comes in exactly as CB Terrakion, CB Dragonite, LO Starmie and many more pokes, so i don't see how it is an issue. We have Keldeo and Terrakion to outspeed and OHKO, and Celebi and Bronzong that can take a hit and hit it back hard, while even Gliscor and Ttar help against choiced sets, so i don't think that it is a big concern.
Finally i would argue the opposite of what you said, Celebi makes handling rain teams easier, as it has the lovely Grass STAB that they loath and does not give a fuck about Scald burns, making it much more ressilient. I don't see why you mention Torn-T while we have a Bronzong in our team, one of its best checks. We also have an offensive team, so most of the time Zong will be able to hold back Torn-T long enough so that we can win the game. Not to mention that Torn-T is lured easily and destroyed by Celebi if SR is up, something that Latias can't do. So my opinion is that with Celebi we fare much better against rain teams than with Latias (as i said again many offensive rain teams struggle to take hits from Celebi once it gets in if they lack Jirachi). And let's not talk about HP Fire as Latias and Celebi have exactly the same firepower so any discussion about it is pointless. Celebi still deals better than Latias against Ferro though for reasons already mentioned.
Regarding SashZam... Maybe you are right, but i still feel that we should explore all the possibilities, and i was merely throwing out ideas anyway...
Actually after SR, Celebi cannot switch into a Thunderbolt either, since an HP Ice will KO. I gave LO Celebi a whirl, but I really hated switching into SR, and then losing 10% per attack, it was such a pain, and it was a real bitch vs Rain, where I would NEED Celebi alive to go toe to toe with Keldeo, and due to it being our primary water resist, it just wasn't working. You said it yourself, this is an offensive team, and Celebi just gets targetted, and overloaded (you lack passive Giga Drain recovery too) until it can no longer switch into water moves without getting utterly wrecked. Personally, I would simply set up SR, then bring in Thundurus-T on Gliscor, Agility, HP Ice this Celebi, die to Psychic, and now you are at 21% health, letting be bring in a water type (say Keldeo) and force a KO. If you stay in, Celebi dies, its a 1 for 1 trade but now said water type rapes us, and if you switch out, you are at 9% next time you come in, far too low to really do anything. The long shot of this is that LO kills the life of Celebi too quickly. Latias can get away with it due to that bulk, and the fact that it can use its speed to recover before a second hit. Granted, the above is a very specific scenario, but it illustrates the difficulties I (and by the look of it, others) have with LO Celebi, it doesn't really fix our problems vs Rain, since we actually need a secondary water resist somewhere (I am not counting Keldeo, since it cannot really switch in vs Rotom-W / Keldeo) otherwise Rain utterly steamrolls us.
tl;dr
I agree with Doom, go listen.
tl;dr
I agree with Doom, go listen.
Ginga to me it seems that your problem is the lack of a second water resist. The scenario you just exaplained happens with Latias too (Agility with Thund-T, HP Ice and Latias is left with ~25%, then Scarf Keldeo cleans). Not to mention that Latias gets trapped easily by Ttar, leaving us even more open to Keldeo.
Another idea... What about an SD Baton Pass Celebi? I am talking about a set such as this:
Celebi @ Lefties
Careful nature
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Baton Pass
- Thunder Wave
Seed Bomb to hurt the waters that Celebi walls, SD and BP to bring in Tyranitar, Terrakion, Gliscor (which can continue the pass), or even Broznong at +2, and T-Wave to not give free switch-ins to everything that would like to switch into Celebi. With SD, Celebi is no more set-up bait for Ferro and it can't be Pursuit trapped as well. Please no bashing i am totally brainstorming right now...
Another idea... What about an SD Baton Pass Celebi? I am talking about a set such as this:
Celebi @ Lefties
Careful nature
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Baton Pass
- Thunder Wave
Seed Bomb to hurt the waters that Celebi walls, SD and BP to bring in Tyranitar, Terrakion, Gliscor (which can continue the pass), or even Broznong at +2, and T-Wave to not give free switch-ins to everything that would like to switch into Celebi. With SD, Celebi is no more set-up bait for Ferro and it can't be Pursuit trapped as well. Please no bashing i am totally brainstorming right now...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4441194
I'd love to revive Mary Jane, I used this set with a physically defensive spread and Recover on Twave, but whatever.
If we go this way, the team needs to shift a little more because the ones that can receive a SD are Gliscor (he wont do much with that, but can keep the thing going) Terrakion and Tyranitar. Basically a grass pokemon can sit on Celebi and threaten any of our recipients. Same goes for a Water pokemon able to take Celebi Seed Bomb or threaten it with let's say Ice Beam.
A physical Jirachi packs alot of useful resistances, and can do Bronzong job aswell (yes I don't really like this Bronzong :\).
I faced alexwolf while he was using this team and my stall team came out on top fairly easily. As Lavos mentioned, this team also struggles with rain.
My proposition? Ditch Latias/Celebi entirely and go for a Starmie.
Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
Starmie fits in extremely well on this team. It has no problem coming in on common hazard setters such as Hippowdon/Skarmory/Heatran to immediately spin their shit away, while it can slightly help out against Ferrothorn by luring it in and potentially burning it with Scald, which can also ward off Pursuiters. It doesn't have to worry about spinblockers either, since Gengar is outsped and slaughtered by Psyshock while Jellicent is taken care of by CB Tar. Starmie is also solid for this team in that it maintains an excellent check to several common rain Pokemon, such as Politoed & Keldeo, with Natural Cure letting it shrug off Scald burns.
On a different note, I like Bronzong very much and all, but I feel that the current set is going to get worn down way too easily by repeated Tornadus-T Hurricanes + U-turns. I think adding Protect would go a long way in helping out with this issue, preferably over Earthquake as I think that's the least valuable move Zong has atm.
The SD Pass Celebi looks interesting, but I'd use Recover over Thunder Wave, since it needs longevity to fend off rain.
My proposition? Ditch Latias/Celebi entirely and go for a Starmie.
Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
Starmie fits in extremely well on this team. It has no problem coming in on common hazard setters such as Hippowdon/Skarmory/Heatran to immediately spin their shit away, while it can slightly help out against Ferrothorn by luring it in and potentially burning it with Scald, which can also ward off Pursuiters. It doesn't have to worry about spinblockers either, since Gengar is outsped and slaughtered by Psyshock while Jellicent is taken care of by CB Tar. Starmie is also solid for this team in that it maintains an excellent check to several common rain Pokemon, such as Politoed & Keldeo, with Natural Cure letting it shrug off Scald burns.
On a different note, I like Bronzong very much and all, but I feel that the current set is going to get worn down way too easily by repeated Tornadus-T Hurricanes + U-turns. I think adding Protect would go a long way in helping out with this issue, preferably over Earthquake as I think that's the least valuable move Zong has atm.
The SD Pass Celebi looks interesting, but I'd use Recover over Thunder Wave, since it needs longevity to fend off rain.
The Starmie suggestion seems very interesting, my only problem is that it leaves us quite Keldeo weak. Scarf Keldeo easily 2HKOes with Hydro Pump in rain, and can 2HKO with Surf too after SR and 5% residual damage, while Specs has 25% chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump after SR. And Starmie doesn't even come close to OHKOing with Psyshock. Not to mention that CBTar can freely switch into Psyshock and fucks us badly no matter what we do (we can avoid this by running Reflect Type instead of Scald actually).
About SD Celebi. I know that Recover seems very tempting but i think that Celebi needs a weapon against Torn-T and Genesect, which would otherwise be able to freely switch into it.
Finally on Bronzong's 4th move. It is really a prefference thing and i don't think we should reject either option. EQ / Protect is fine as the last slot so i say leave it as that.
Will try to do more testing when i have the time...
About SD Celebi. I know that Recover seems very tempting but i think that Celebi needs a weapon against Torn-T and Genesect, which would otherwise be able to freely switch into it.
Finally on Bronzong's 4th move. It is really a prefference thing and i don't think we should reject either option. EQ / Protect is fine as the last slot so i say leave it as that.
Will try to do more testing when i have the time...
Hi,
I must say this team has deveoped wonderfully and is a good example of how to use Keldeo in BW2, especially in conjunction with tyranitar. This team has evolved from being built around SubPass gliscor to becoming a trap team followed with double fighting types to overpower and remaining psychic types. Tyranitar, Keldeo, and Terrakion are serving as this team's offensive core while bronzong and latias help it balance out its weaknesses. The fact is the only thing gliscor can really baton pass to is Keldeo. Choice band tyranitar can also be passed into but reuniclus and the lati twins are really unsafe switch ins to gliscor. Anybody making those plays especially early in the match will be easy to beat regardless of what you do, lol.
Gliscor does open this team up to some pokemon. Physically defensive skarmory can literally take a shit everywhere except for on Keldeo and latias, the former of which it can KO with a brave bird, and the latter who is not incredibly hard to wall at all. In fact any steel type with high special defense or water type or whatever will be able to take hits and recover damage easily, often even with leftovers. Latias is bulky, but it can't hit very hard and often when you need to get a kill it will fail. Gliscor does help a little bit vs sableye and mew, but stallbreaker mew will handle this team with ease, especially if it carries ice beam. The best counter to those two pokemon to deal with those two in OU are heatran and victini neither of which can function as a phyiscally defensive fighting resist. In fact in order to take the duo on a revamp of multiple pokemon is needed.
One option to deal with skarmory and terrakion better is to use a physically defensive claydol over gliscor, although this really elaborates on the Will o wisp weakness. A set of ice beam/earthquake/rapid spin/stealth rock would probably do great. This would be used in conjunction with stallbreaker heatran over bronzong. Physical dragons become big threats as claydol is not that bulky, but rather has good resistances. Bronzong could not check them perfectly either because of haxorus' mold breaker, salamence's fire blast and drasgonite's boosted fire punches. DragMag teams are really a place for terrakion to shine luckily. Mamoswine also becomes annoying and U-turn tornadus-t is a pain in the butt. This option could be useful but might lose more than it gains. This also adds four water resists. Looking back at this paragraph I don't think changing both would be smart, but stall is really a bitch lol. If any of the ideas stick hooray.
Another Idea is to simply use specs keldeo. It hits much harder right off the bat and can power through the fucking stallbreakers. Amoonguss will be a bitch still but luckily amoonguss and slowking and other assorted keldeo counters are taken down by tyranitar. Choice specs keldeo is simply a better pokemon than calm mind also considering all of the faster checks- latis, torn-t, jolteon, scarf everything etc. Kill and switch out is a better option. Being able to power through ferrothorn is huge. I would also personally make gliscor swords dance mainly for stall but also because this team does not utilize BP gliscor that effectively. Other nitpicks are more offensive and speedy ttar, new latias set below, max speed with hidden power fire is stupid. Test thunder wave and psyshock over surf. Take off toxic slashes on bronzong, toxic is used mainly for bulky waters which can be handled. My version of the team below.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Ice Wind
- Hidden Power Electric
One more thing, if people are concrete on SpD ttar we should definitely give skarmory a go over bronzong. With a little SpD investment it can take on tornadus-t and rain offense pretty well. Spikes support is also amazing for allowing choice specs keldeo and choice scarf terrakion to clean up. Stealth rock would be moved to gliscor, along with eaurthquake, ice fang, and protect or roost or u-turn or toxic or taunt.
244 Speed Evs on latias to outspeed terrakion and keldeo.
Peng had a good EV spread for tyranitar.
112 SpD EVs on skarm to avoid 2HKO by torn-t hurricane (life orb) in rain after stealth rock
244 HP on gliscor is maximum poison heal
I must say this team has deveoped wonderfully and is a good example of how to use Keldeo in BW2, especially in conjunction with tyranitar. This team has evolved from being built around SubPass gliscor to becoming a trap team followed with double fighting types to overpower and remaining psychic types. Tyranitar, Keldeo, and Terrakion are serving as this team's offensive core while bronzong and latias help it balance out its weaknesses. The fact is the only thing gliscor can really baton pass to is Keldeo. Choice band tyranitar can also be passed into but reuniclus and the lati twins are really unsafe switch ins to gliscor. Anybody making those plays especially early in the match will be easy to beat regardless of what you do, lol.
Gliscor does open this team up to some pokemon. Physically defensive skarmory can literally take a shit everywhere except for on Keldeo and latias, the former of which it can KO with a brave bird, and the latter who is not incredibly hard to wall at all. In fact any steel type with high special defense or water type or whatever will be able to take hits and recover damage easily, often even with leftovers. Latias is bulky, but it can't hit very hard and often when you need to get a kill it will fail. Gliscor does help a little bit vs sableye and mew, but stallbreaker mew will handle this team with ease, especially if it carries ice beam. The best counter to those two pokemon to deal with those two in OU are heatran and victini neither of which can function as a phyiscally defensive fighting resist. In fact in order to take the duo on a revamp of multiple pokemon is needed.
One option to deal with skarmory and terrakion better is to use a physically defensive claydol over gliscor, although this really elaborates on the Will o wisp weakness. A set of ice beam/earthquake/rapid spin/stealth rock would probably do great. This would be used in conjunction with stallbreaker heatran over bronzong. Physical dragons become big threats as claydol is not that bulky, but rather has good resistances. Bronzong could not check them perfectly either because of haxorus' mold breaker, salamence's fire blast and drasgonite's boosted fire punches. DragMag teams are really a place for terrakion to shine luckily. Mamoswine also becomes annoying and U-turn tornadus-t is a pain in the butt. This option could be useful but might lose more than it gains. This also adds four water resists. Looking back at this paragraph I don't think changing both would be smart, but stall is really a bitch lol. If any of the ideas stick hooray.
Another Idea is to simply use specs keldeo. It hits much harder right off the bat and can power through the fucking stallbreakers. Amoonguss will be a bitch still but luckily amoonguss and slowking and other assorted keldeo counters are taken down by tyranitar. Choice specs keldeo is simply a better pokemon than calm mind also considering all of the faster checks- latis, torn-t, jolteon, scarf everything etc. Kill and switch out is a better option. Being able to power through ferrothorn is huge. I would also personally make gliscor swords dance mainly for stall but also because this team does not utilize BP gliscor that effectively. Other nitpicks are more offensive and speedy ttar, new latias set below, max speed with hidden power fire is stupid. Test thunder wave and psyshock over surf. Take off toxic slashes on bronzong, toxic is used mainly for bulky waters which can be handled. My version of the team below.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Ice Wind
- Hidden Power Electric
One more thing, if people are concrete on SpD ttar we should definitely give skarmory a go over bronzong. With a little SpD investment it can take on tornadus-t and rain offense pretty well. Spikes support is also amazing for allowing choice specs keldeo and choice scarf terrakion to clean up. Stealth rock would be moved to gliscor, along with eaurthquake, ice fang, and protect or roost or u-turn or toxic or taunt.
244 Speed Evs on latias to outspeed terrakion and keldeo.
Peng had a good EV spread for tyranitar.
112 SpD EVs on skarm to avoid 2HKO by torn-t hurricane (life orb) in rain after stealth rock
244 HP on gliscor is maximum poison heal
Please stop this "244 HP maximum poison heal number nonsense". It's fine and all in practice and won't make a difference but the philosophical reasoning for you to take away points from HP and shove them into defense is "give up significantly higher overall bulk for relatively tiny one-sided bulk because you stop getting more poison heal". You don't stop investing in HP just because you don't have to, it's still what you do with defensive pokemon like Gliscor.
Is it just me, or does Gliscor seem so underwhelming? It's not checking much really, and it's garbage versus rain, our worst matchup. Passing a Substitute is cute, but do we really need it? I know that was the basis of the team; however, I've built a team around a certain poke before and replaced it at the end to improve the team.
Exactly Bri. All Gliscor does is deal with Terrakion. I think Landorus-T or sheer force landorus with stealth rock as filler would fit a lot better. Also I have been testing ice punch and fire punch over superpower and crunch and they are working pretty well to shock gliscor and genesect, as well as always 2HKOing skarm with the speed
Yea I have experienced the same. I don't think its really Gliscors fault tho (having a successful Sub Pass Gliscor team of my own) but rather the fact that we don't really have anything that needs a Substitute, bar perhapes Keldeo but like, thats it. On my version of the team, I ran a few more stat boosters, that appreciated setting up on water / ice moves . I ran Cloyster on my team, mostly because Sub Pass Gliscor could easily pass it a substitute (I had a separate sub receiver for pokemon such as Politoed and Rotom-W which also beat Cloyster) but also because it forced in Mamoswine and shit, which Cloyster has a decent chance at setting up on (esp if Mamo lacks Superpower). I am not advocating Cloyster or anything, just stating that atm, the team doesn't really do a great job at working with Gliscor (which the team was built around), and thats rather sad.
When I play this Gliscor I use it as a "starter", because he can scout, prevent Hazards etc. and he gives me the initial momentum with Baton Pass.
Then he usually comes back to wall specific stuff, take U-Turn etc.
I think we were too focused on checking stuff at all cost. I definitly think this Gliscor fits to an offensive strategy forcing a fast paced game where one set-up can end the fight.
Then he usually comes back to wall specific stuff, take U-Turn etc.
I think we were too focused on checking stuff at all cost. I definitly think this Gliscor fits to an offensive strategy forcing a fast paced game where one set-up can end the fight.
I agree with the others. As i mentioned earlier Gliscor was by far the least valuable member of the team and was in general mediocre. There were times that it managed to prevent set-up with Taunt, set up a Sub on the switch and then Baton Pass safely to Ttar to trap the special attacker, but in most games it hardly did anything except from scouting for pokes's sets with Sub. But i don't know what we can do about it, as this is a CCAT that is supposed to be built around a poke. If we change the poke the whole effort would be wasted so i really think we should settle for making the best possible team for SubPass Gliscor and call it a day. CCAT teams are not supposed to be excellent or flawless anyway, they are meant to use to decent success undereused sets.
Yeah I think people were to much in the "counter everything" mentality and made the team not really capitilze on its potential...It's still a very very good team though!! I've been using this team with cloyster to take better advantage of gliscors subs and I really think hes the best partner to sub-pass gliscor. Oh and forgot to metnion, LO on latias has to go, it seriously dies way to fast.
Hey guys I have been play testing this and screwing around, and two pokemon I really like are ferrothorn and zapdos over gliscor and ferrothorn. I also made latias physically defensive calm mind with HP fire, made Terrakion a conkeldurr and unbanded Tyranitar, making it specially defensive with stealth rock. So my version of the team is as follows:
Specially Defensive Zapdos
Specially Defensive Tyranitar
Physically Defensive Calm mind latias
Standard Ferrothorn
Choice Scarf Terrakion/BU conkeldurr
Sub calm mind keldeo
Try it out or at least some of it
Specially Defensive Zapdos
Specially Defensive Tyranitar
Physically Defensive Calm mind latias
Standard Ferrothorn
Choice Scarf Terrakion/BU conkeldurr
Sub calm mind keldeo
Try it out or at least some of it
You guys have all done an amazing job at discussing the team and bringing up solutions to its meddling problems with some faster powerhouses. To help bring some more ideas forth and add some competition to this event (because who doesn't like competition) Harsha and I have decided to start a Ladder Race for CCAT. The point of this race is not only to encourage activity but also to see which fixes/edits work best for the team. This will of course be displayed by whoever is most successful with his / her changes.
This is how this will work:
~It will be quite similar to Dark Horse in which each person will set up their own separate CCAT account for Pokemon Showdown!
~At the end of 1 month (Saturday, January 5th is the last day) the user with the highest ranking on the ladder will win the ladder race.
~During the race, users will be able to offer helpful advice and insight to the general community based on their own experiences. The discussion will continue, with more evidence to support claims.
RULES:
~You MUST use the CCAT team during this race. Edits and changes are definitely allowed throughout the race, however keep your team similar to the original team and try not to change too many things.
~Use of any teams that are not from this CCAT for the race is prohibited.
~Register before laddering.
~Ladder standings should be updated regularly, as we will base our standings on the regular edits of users
REGISTRATION EXAMPLE:
Username:
Pokemon Showdown! username:
Current Ladder standing: (Glicko2 and standing)
Edits made to CCAT team:
REGISTERED USERS:
CURRENT STANDINGS:
A prize will be handed out to the winner of this ladder race! Good luck!
This is how this will work:
~It will be quite similar to Dark Horse in which each person will set up their own separate CCAT account for Pokemon Showdown!
~At the end of 1 month (Saturday, January 5th is the last day) the user with the highest ranking on the ladder will win the ladder race.
~During the race, users will be able to offer helpful advice and insight to the general community based on their own experiences. The discussion will continue, with more evidence to support claims.
RULES:
~You MUST use the CCAT team during this race. Edits and changes are definitely allowed throughout the race, however keep your team similar to the original team and try not to change too many things.
~Use of any teams that are not from this CCAT for the race is prohibited.
~Register before laddering.
~Ladder standings should be updated regularly, as we will base our standings on the regular edits of users
REGISTRATION EXAMPLE:
Username:
Pokemon Showdown! username:
Current Ladder standing: (Glicko2 and standing)
Edits made to CCAT team:
REGISTERED USERS:
CURRENT STANDINGS:
A prize will be handed out to the winner of this ladder race! Good luck!
Written by our very own Harsha on the RMT forum:
How to Rate
If you don't want to read the whole thing, I underlined the meaning of 'changing too many things.' Take it as a rate / test. See what's wrong with the team, try to fix it, but try not to change too many pokemon- then it strays away from the original focus. The passage says more than 3; it is upon my opinion that changing more than 2 should not even be needed judging this was still a thought-about process from the community. Remember that because Gliscor is the focus of our CCAT here I think changing Gliscor of all pokemon is not a good idea.
How to Rate
While it's often easy to look at teams and point out weaknesses, this is definitely not the way aspiring team raters and badged raters alike should be rating teams. In this thread we'll be breaking down how to rate in a series of systematic steps, that when followed, will be sure to produce a good rate. First and foremost, there are many helpful resources that can help out throughout a rate. Damage calculators allow you to easily find evidence to support changes for the team, and allow you to understand how the team can deal with threats. I find that Honko's damage calculator is the best out there, as it already has many of the sets prepared for easy use. The threat lists are often good resources to see how Pokemon are kept in check, and we'd recommend that you check them out. They also give common offensive and defensive threats, which is helpful when memory fails you. Once these are sorted, you're ready to make a good rate.
1) Take a look at the team
This may be the most obvious step, but it's often an overlooked element from what I've seen. Many are simply looking at the team and checking for weaknesses—you might argue that you've looked at the team at this point. That isn't true. When looking at the team, you are trying to find the purpose of that team, whether it be laying down as many entry hazards as possible to guarantee a Lucario sweep or using defensive prowess and residual damage to keep every Pokemon in check and force switches. Looking at the purpose ensures that you'll simply try and further that, be it through changing an EV spread to help accomplish that or changing a redundant Pokemon.
2) Try and make the team more efficient
This is the next step. Many people just blindly suggest changes to the team, but I would argue that after a certain amount of changes, the team is no longer theirs, but you have built a new one. By attempting to make a team more efficient, you are suggesting material ranging from changing an EV spread so that Dragonite will outspeed Starmie after 1 Dragon Dance and will attain an easier sweep to changing a redundant Choice Band Dragonite to a Magnezone because the team already has Salamence and Haxorus. This usually will be enough to already eliminate potential threats; you can see from the second example that now Skarmory is less of a threat, along with Forretress.
A note: changing too much is not acceptable, in blunt terms. We're looking to make a team more efficient, not build a new one. Teams that need a change of 3 Pokemon generally aren't worth your time, and the maker should usually be referred to Battling 101 if anything.
3) Take a step back
This is what I usually do after step 2. When you are done, you should look at what you've actually done to the team. Believe it or not, you can actually open more holes by suggesting something to further a team, and as such, this is where you try and cover those holes. I generally like to make smaller suggestions here, as if the team is already efficient, there shouldn't be many holes left. Suggestions such as "use an Air Balloon to make Heatran a better check to Dragons, Choice Scarf Landorus, and SubToxic Gliscor" is what I consider a smaller change, and it can actually help immensely. Moveset changes, EV spread changes, and similar things belong here. Generally, changing a Pokemon to deal with a threat is not what we want to see.
These three steps can actually be broken down into paragraph format. You can try and make the team more efficient in the first, and then patch up holes in the second. Additionally, we like to recommend bolding the changes, as it not only makes the rates easier to read, but the team builder will not have to always read through a massive wall of text. At the end, we like to always add the sets of the changes in hide tags in this format:
Pokemon @ Item | Ability
Nature | x / y / z
- Move 1
- Move 2
- Move 3
- Move 4
However, people that like to add sets as the rate progresses generally like this format:
Pokemon @ Item | Ability
Nature | x / y / z
Move 1 | Move 2 | Move 3 | Move 4
These are basically up to the rater, but most of us appreciate easy-to-read sets, and there's no doubt that the team builder will too. Making a legible post often tells the op that you care, and he or she will be more likely to take those suggestions into account. That's all there is to it—rating is much easier than it sounds when everything is broken up! Practice makes perfect, and likewise, rating consistently makes rating an easier practice in general. Try and follow these guidelines, and you'll be sure to make a good rater!
1) Take a look at the team
This may be the most obvious step, but it's often an overlooked element from what I've seen. Many are simply looking at the team and checking for weaknesses—you might argue that you've looked at the team at this point. That isn't true. When looking at the team, you are trying to find the purpose of that team, whether it be laying down as many entry hazards as possible to guarantee a Lucario sweep or using defensive prowess and residual damage to keep every Pokemon in check and force switches. Looking at the purpose ensures that you'll simply try and further that, be it through changing an EV spread to help accomplish that or changing a redundant Pokemon.
2) Try and make the team more efficient
This is the next step. Many people just blindly suggest changes to the team, but I would argue that after a certain amount of changes, the team is no longer theirs, but you have built a new one. By attempting to make a team more efficient, you are suggesting material ranging from changing an EV spread so that Dragonite will outspeed Starmie after 1 Dragon Dance and will attain an easier sweep to changing a redundant Choice Band Dragonite to a Magnezone because the team already has Salamence and Haxorus. This usually will be enough to already eliminate potential threats; you can see from the second example that now Skarmory is less of a threat, along with Forretress.
A note: changing too much is not acceptable, in blunt terms. We're looking to make a team more efficient, not build a new one. Teams that need a change of 3 Pokemon generally aren't worth your time, and the maker should usually be referred to Battling 101 if anything.
3) Take a step back
This is what I usually do after step 2. When you are done, you should look at what you've actually done to the team. Believe it or not, you can actually open more holes by suggesting something to further a team, and as such, this is where you try and cover those holes. I generally like to make smaller suggestions here, as if the team is already efficient, there shouldn't be many holes left. Suggestions such as "use an Air Balloon to make Heatran a better check to Dragons, Choice Scarf Landorus, and SubToxic Gliscor" is what I consider a smaller change, and it can actually help immensely. Moveset changes, EV spread changes, and similar things belong here. Generally, changing a Pokemon to deal with a threat is not what we want to see.
These three steps can actually be broken down into paragraph format. You can try and make the team more efficient in the first, and then patch up holes in the second. Additionally, we like to recommend bolding the changes, as it not only makes the rates easier to read, but the team builder will not have to always read through a massive wall of text. At the end, we like to always add the sets of the changes in hide tags in this format:
Pokemon @ Item | Ability
Nature | x / y / z
- Move 1
- Move 2
- Move 3
- Move 4
However, people that like to add sets as the rate progresses generally like this format:
Pokemon @ Item | Ability
Nature | x / y / z
Move 1 | Move 2 | Move 3 | Move 4
These are basically up to the rater, but most of us appreciate easy-to-read sets, and there's no doubt that the team builder will too. Making a legible post often tells the op that you care, and he or she will be more likely to take those suggestions into account. That's all there is to it—rating is much easier than it sounds when everything is broken up! Practice makes perfect, and likewise, rating consistently makes rating an easier practice in general. Try and follow these guidelines, and you'll be sure to make a good rater!
If you don't want to read the whole thing, I underlined the meaning of 'changing too many things.' Take it as a rate / test. See what's wrong with the team, try to fix it, but try not to change too many pokemon- then it strays away from the original focus. The passage says more than 3; it is upon my opinion that changing more than 2 should not even be needed judging this was still a thought-about process from the community. Remember that because Gliscor is the focus of our CCAT here I think changing Gliscor of all pokemon is not a good idea.