Lower Tiers ORAS UU Discussion, Trends, and Rambling

Wanka · Dec 9, 2021

UUSD Midseason Metagame Analysis

I've been making it a point to be paying very close attention to the development of ORAS UU post conk ban and after playing in ORASPL and watching the oras pool in UUSD I think there's a fair amount to cover in terms of how the meta is being molded. In general, shit is 1000x better without conk. BING BONG

Resurgence of Creativity
I think one of the main gripes with conk meta was simply the overcentralized aspect in building having to not only prep for multiple conk sets, but being able to handle the metas other premier threats like celebi, hydreigon, aero, etc. all at the same time. The amount of depth in terms of viable backbones that someone could use was incredibly low and there was an overreliance on florges cores, mandibuzz + slowking, empoleon + mandibuzz, empoleon + seismetoad + crobat or any demongross + florges + water cores to be frank. Any type of balance/BO core that branched away from any of the aforementioned pocket monsters was simply too inconsistent to be able to bring to a tournament best of 1 given the pressure that conk and other threats put on teambuilding. Post conk ban though, building has been incredibly refreshing and while those cores do still work, there is incredibly less risk in trying to branch away from them in the builder. Another thing I've noticed is that the mons within those cores have gained some breathing room in terms of the sets they can run, which is obviously healthy for building. Crobats can actually be offensive and utilize a wider range of uitlity moves safely without having to worry about conk boosting past it and slowkings aren't pigeonholed into Tox + psychic sets to be specific. Gligar teams are also a prime example of something that was simply way too inconsistent prior to conks ban, but became instantly potent following the ban.

I think another dynamic element that we've seen from conks ban has been the development of HO in ORAS UU. HO as an archetype will always be inevitably flawed in some ways, but similarly with balance/BO prior to conks ban, HO was also somewhat pigeonholed into lead froslass slurpuff crack, which is still good, but we've seen some expansions with HO as a whole. Klefki + stacked threats that would otherwise lose to conk actually isn't dogshit anymore and we've even seen sun win a game in UUSD. Notice how there's a common theme between archetypes of shit that was good with conk still being good minus the centralization from conk opening up some variation within different archetypes.

Viable Adaptations to The Current Meta, Crack is good?
The aforementioned resurgence in creativity has created a lot of matchups that we've never really seen before, which lowkey drives me insane, but it's pretty much an inevitable notion given the magnitude of banning a mon like conk. Essentially, we've been seeing a lot of crack vs. crack or crack vs. old balance cores. In terms of the crack vs. old balance cores/BO cores, crack has been coming out on top a lot, which has been kinda cool, but something I feel like shouldn't last for that long.

Doublade is a mon that I feel like is incredibly potent right now in terms of being able to slap it on BO/your own form of crack in order to combat opposing crack at the same time. I really love this about the meta because I always felt like doublade was poor and more or less impossible to fit onto BO oriented builds without being overly weak to bulk up conk. Now, I think it's such a good addition to a lot of seismetoad BO teams that are already good against balance, but kind of struggle with teams that just stack threats. Mega Aero is still very good if not better. Mega aero being good isn't really an alarming thing to note, but I do feel like it is even better than it has been in the past. I think it boils down to the fact that when people are getting more and more fearless in the builder with breakers, a mon with its typing, coverage, and speed becomes even more consistent in a meta like this as opposed to a stale one that rewarded passiveness. I don't have too much else tbh, I think in a lot of Pak's recent posts, he's covered a fair amount of other adaptations to the meta right now that are also good. This is more or less a reminder to be weary of crack in this tier.

Pak · Dec 17, 2021

(Technician)
The OHKOd by Scald Boys

Bulky Waters are lynchpins of the entire tier, due to their general utility and ability to handle threats like Mega Aerodactyl, and with them comes their primary mode of offensive presence: Scald. Scald is an incredibly stupid move that must be accounted for in some capacity on consistent ORAS UU teams, and that is funnily much easier said than done. The tier has plenty of answers to bulky Water-types themselves, but continually switching into Scalds with potential broken ORAS burns can be a frustratingly tall task for much of them. Scald is literally the reason that Seismitoad has seen such a huge rise. Aside from some decent Knock Off utility, Swampert is legitimately better in every other relevant, but has fallen off a cliff almost purely because it can't continually throw itself into removers like Empoleon and Tentacruel nearly as easily as Seismitoad can. Aside from that specific interaction, it's also just huge that the opponent has to even think twice about using one of the most risk-free moves in the entire game. Despite them being rather niche at the moment, it also says something that both Toxicroak and Heliolisk are both UU by usage this gen. In no other circumstance would they sniff this level of viability if they didn't heal 25% from contact with the hot water.

As mentioned a bit above, a big reason that a Scald immunity is so valuable is really because of how little truly wants to come in on it otherwise. Water as a type is generally very strong, possessing only two weaknesses, naturally limiting their counter play already. Now, give them a move where the only mons that can dodge its incredibly crippling secondary effect are weak to it, being Fires. As a result, Electrics, which are already few and far between in the tier, really can't function as consistent bulky Water answers given their neutrality to it as well. Beyond that, even Grasses have a hard time hard switching in and consistently winning the interaction. The most prominent examples lie in mons like Mega Sceptile, Mega Abomasnow, Chesnaught, Rotom-C, and Technician Roserade. Sure, they can still win in the short-term, as even if they're taking 12% per turn, they can still threaten the Water out in that given sequence usually, but the bulky Waters in this tier are immortal. They become more and more of a headache, especially when paired with their usual partners that help shore up these weaknesses. The term OHKOd by Scald is obviously an exaggeration, but imagine this all-too-common sequence. Mega Sceptile is the team's sole answer to Suicune. Suicune can beat a dumb amount of the tier in pure one-on-ones, forcing the opponent to hard into the Scep. Rocks are not hard to maintain, so let's assume they're up. They take rocks, the Scald itself, and burn damage, suddenly finding themselves at ~65%. Even if they double out, next time they switch in, they'll be at 40% or so only between another round of rocks and burn. Fast forward a bit and suddenly Suicune's only answer is dead and is steam rolling the rest of the team. Just a lot of streamlined and easily exploitable gameplay. It doesn't mean Scald isn't stupid as shit, but it at least needs to be respected in some capacity.

I singled out Mega Sceptile there, but that applies to essentially any of the mons listed, ultimately limiting their team fits. This comes in direct comparison to more resilient Scald switches like Celebi, Natural Cure Roserade, hell even Virizion. Despite these mons generally having lower offensive ceilings than some of the other examples mentioned, there is a lot of inherent value in knowing you have your bases covered in those types of sequences. This is where those aforementioned Scald immunities become all the more relevant. In my opinion, Heliolisk and Toxicroak are both bleh, but theoretically them and the much more prominent example in Seismitoad open a lot of doors for these supposed partners that are shakier into Scald. Perhaps the most apparent example is the classic combination of Seismitoad + Technician Roserade. It doesn't necessarily have to forego its otherwise standard hazard + Natural Cure set, but there is the flexibility to. A lot of teambuilding just comes back to enabling partners in ways that would be otherwise hard to accomplish, and besides its already tremendous utility, that is what makes Seismitoad so great relative to other directly comparable options within the tier. The less pressure on certain members to accomplish whatever vital role the better, and this is just another example, offering more free-flowing and fluent gameplay, something that should be the goal in a now-balanced and well-paced metagame in ORAS UU. Yes I wrote this on a Friday night. I have work in the morning leave me alone.

Edit: I forgot Jellicent was a Pokemon when I wrote this but yeah aside from really fucking with balance / hjk spam, it being Scald immune is insanely huge for it

GraylyHen94 · Dec 17, 2021

Pak said:
View attachment 392535 View attachment 392530 View attachment 392534 View attachment 392533 View attachment 392532 (Technician)
The OHKOd by Scald Boys

Bulky Waters are lynchpins of the entire tier, due to their general utility and ability to handle threats like Mega Aerodactyl, and with them comes their primary mode of offensive presence: Scald. Scald is an incredibly stupid move that must be accounted for in some capacity on consistent ORAS UU teams, and that is funnily much easier said than done. The tier has plenty of answers to bulky Water-types themselves, but continually switching into Scalds with potential broken ORAS burns can be a frustratingly tall task for much of them. Scald is literally the reason that Seismitoad has seen such a huge rise. Aside from some decent Knock Off utility, Swampert is legitimately better in every other relevant, but has fallen off a cliff almost purely because it can't continually throw itself into removers like Empoleon and Tentacruel nearly as easily as Seismitoad can. Aside from that specific interaction, it's also just huge that the opponent has to even think twice about using one of the most risk-free moves in the entire game. Despite them being rather niche at the moment, it also says something that both Toxicroak and Heliolisk are both UU by usage this gen. In no other circumstance would they sniff this level of viability if they didn't heal 25% from contact with the hot water.

As mentioned a bit above, a big reason that a Scald immunity is so valuable is really because of how little truly wants to come in on it otherwise. Water as a type is generally very strong, possessing only two weaknesses, naturally limiting their counter play already. Now, give them a move where the only mons that can dodge its incredibly crippling secondary effect are weak to it, being Fires. As a result, Electrics, which are already few and far between in the tier, really can't function as consistent bulky Water answers given their neutrality to it as well. Beyond that, even Grasses have a hard time hard switching in and consistently winning the interaction. The most prominent examples lie in mons like Mega Sceptile, Mega Abomasnow, Chesnaught, Rotom-C, and Technician Roserade. Sure, they can still win in the short-term, as even if they're taking 12% per turn, they can still threaten the Water out in that given sequence usually, but the bulky Waters in this tier are immortal. They become more and more of a headache, especially when paired with their usual partners that help shore up these weaknesses. The term OHKOd by Scald is obviously an exaggeration, but imagine this all-too-common sequence. Mega Sceptile is the team's sole answer to Suicune. Suicune can beat a dumb amount of the tier in pure one-on-ones, forcing the opponent to hard into the Scep. Rocks are not hard to maintain, so let's assume they're up. They take rocks, the Scald itself, and burn damage, suddenly finding themselves at ~65%. Even if they double out, next time they switch in, they'll be at 40% or so only between another round of rocks and burn. Fast forward a bit and suddenly Suicune's only answer is dead and is steam rolling the rest of the team. Just a lot of streamlined and easily exploitable gameplay. It doesn't mean Scald isn't stupid as shit, but it at least needs to be respected in some capacity.

I singled out Mega Sceptile there, but that applies to essentially any of the mons listed, ultimately limiting their team fits. This comes in direct comparison to more resilient Scald switches like Celebi, Natural Cure Roserade, hell even Virizion. Despite these mons generally having lower offensive ceilings than some of the other examples mentioned, there is a lot of inherent value in knowing you have your bases covered in those types of sequences. This is where those aforementioned Scald immunities become all the more relevant. In my opinion, Heliolisk and Toxicroak are both bleh, but theoretically them and the much more prominent example in Seismitoad open a lot of doors for these supposed partners that are shakier into Scald. Perhaps the most apparent example is the classic combination of Seismitoad + Technician Roserade. It doesn't necessarily have to forego its otherwise standard hazard + Natural Cure set, but there is the flexibility to. A lot of teambuilding just comes back to enabling partners in ways that would be otherwise hard to accomplish, and besides its already tremendous utility, that is what makes Seismitoad so great relative to other directly comparable options within the tier. The less pressure on certain members to accomplish whatever vital role the better, and this is just another example, offering more free-flowing and fluent gameplay, something that should be the goal in a now-balanced and well-paced metagame in ORAS UU. Yes I wrote this on a Friday night. I have work in the morning leave me alone.

I don't have time to post a full response to this but this all brings me back to the anti Scald thread that BKC made a while ago. Scald still remains hell to walk around in ORAS. That move has warped everything about what a Water "resist" is

Pak · Jan 16, 2022

Post UU Snake Things

Always weird to find time to post stuff like this with tournaments going on and beyond that, it's incredibly awkward to give my stances on random mons or whatever with it directly visible to my weekly opponent etc. I do finally have a break though after playing ORAS UU non stop between UU Classic, ORASPL, then UU snake. That's like 6 months of continuous tournament play which is kinda crazy to think about in hindsight. As I've mentioned in some of the previous posts, there is definitely much more room to experiment in the current meta than with Conk around, which is a bit of a given at this point with how much I've harped on it the last few years. Still, UU snake was the first real environment where people who aren't me actively built and tried out new concepts. ORASPL had some but ultimately it wasn't the most serious tournament ever. Not to say that UU snake is, but UU subforum tours are generally solid indications of the given metagames, since there are so few truly competitive environments to play the old gens.

Still, it was a rather weird tournament. Disregarding my ORAS nerd self from this statement, it was fairly clear who was more engaged and up to date with the new metagame and the results largely reflected that. In any case, there was still a solid amount of metagame development in my opinion, especially in comparison to things like UU classic. With classic, we expectedly saw a lot of old meta teams which just didn't have Conk. From there, it kinda went as I theorized. Those kinds of teams are probably fine from the old meta, but they weren't going to be completely optimal given the metagame trends and changes that were bound to come about eventually. A lot of the strongest approaches in the builder are reminiscent to some degree of the old meta teams, but there is significantly less of a hard cap on what is possible to do with them.

For a loose example: as mentioned in one of my old posts, Crobat can go an offensive route much more easily, utilizing Taunt and U-turn instead of a bulky Haze variant it was previously forced into a lot of the time. As a result, it really wouldn't apply any offensive pressure on its own. Now, it can serve as a team's primary means of dealing with Pokemon like Florges or just annoying bulky mons more in general, whereas before they could shrug off any piss weak attack and do whatever they wanted. Sure Haze is a fine set now, letting it beat Cobalion and stuff more reliably, but it simply is not the best and most consistent use for it. With simple evolutions like that, it fundamentally shifts what those very common Crobat Empoleon Seismitoad teams can set out to accomplish. It may sound pretty basic, but an offensive Crobat there checks off way more boxes than you think, especially in comparison to these types of frameworks in the old days.

I could keep rambling about shit like that but that's what other posts are for. Ultimately, I would say that ORAS is significantly better than it used to be. This was completely expected and it wasn't exactly a high bar to achieve, but that in of itself makes me pretty happy. Overall, the biggest shift for me, especially after playing so many best of 1s in it in this timeframe, is that it is much much easier to build a cohesive team that has a clear purpose. It was possible in Conk meta, but your approaches in doing so were so fucking limited that you wanted to beat your head into a wall while trying anything moderately new or creative. Now, it has a bit more of an SM feel to it, not in the fact that building makes you want to die, but you can reasonably handle things with offensive pressure and positioning much more easily. This is the trait of SM that makes it worth playing in any capacity, so it was a nice little carryover from my other main background in this game. Really it is just way easier to work toward your own game plan in modern ORAS UU compared to Conk meta where building was a literal checklist and it was truly insane you could get anything remotely off beat viably off the ground. Games feel like they aren't decided 75% in the builder anymore, and I couldn't be much happier about that aspect specifically when it comes to ORAS's development.

Pak · Feb 12, 2022

Broken Will-O-Wisp and Its Main Beneficiaries

Scald is the most spammed move in ORAS UU and has been for years and years. It is unironically a pretty oppressive force, despite it being the token STAB move on the tier's bulky Water-types. As such, many notable players have clamored about the move's uncompetitive nature, making offensive users of it all the more annoying to deal with and also letting passive Pokemon essentially OHKO things they would otherwise struggle against. Despite it kind of being a meme, there was even a No Scald ladder in the midst of ORAS itself, and to no one's surprise it felt like a weight lifted off of players in game and in the builder, as alluded to in posts like this that highlight its restrictive nature. Largely, it boils down to the fact that the move has all of the following going for it: wide distribution among tier staples, the only true countermeasures being Water or status immunities (as Fires are obviously weak to it), and simply ORAS burns being 12.5% per turn compared to the much more balanced 1/16 damage in SM onward.

The reason I went on this monologue about Scald is to give some perspective on how much those stupid ass burns can shift the entire dynamic of the tier as we know it. However, the thing is that there is more than enough counterplay to Scald and it is perfectly doable to account for. Sure, building would have more freedom if things like Sceptile and the boys weren't so prone to being OHKOd by their 'best' one-on-one matchups, but it isn't some force that's impossible to overcome. This may sound like a huge overstatement, but the same can't really be said for Will-O-Wisp when it comes to half decent counterplay. The reason being of course that with things like Seismitoad being spammed as a means of mitigating Scald weakness, they don't help versus the other main burn facilitator in Wisp. The main thorn in its side is its distribution, which mostly just boils down to the RU-by-usage mons: Jellicent and Moltres, but holy shit do they make the most of it.

It's like actually hilarious how little in this tier actually wants to deal with that aforementioned duo, and it has only become more apparent in this Mienshao-dominated metagame. Naturally, that has a lot to do with their one-on-one matchups against the immortal Fighting pivot, but there is also just more room than ever to make them work. Jellicent was usable in Conk meta, but was held back by the tier's intensified checklisty nature. It did not offer teams with much of what they traditionally expected from their bulky Water-type. It cannot set hazards or remove them and isn't much of an answer to things like Aero or Entei. That simple fact alone made it hard to fit, especially when it came to fitting the right support system around it. With that said, it was justifiable for sure. In any iteration of the tier, Jellicent has had a dumb high ceiling in any given game, and it has only become more consistent with the recent shifts in the tier. If they don't have a Celebi or Roserade, then chances are Wisp will be OHKOing shit left and right, allowing it to take over more games than it should. Also it makes Tentacruel suck even more than it already does.

I already made an extensive post about my findings with bulky Defog Moltres on balance-oriented teams, and its viability almost entirely hinges on how fucking broken Wisp is. The difference in this setting is that as a Fire/Flying it doesn't even care about the Natural Cure mons. Like really the only safe switches into this thing purely because of Wisp, with no offensive investment I may add, are like Reuniclus, Florges, and Suicune. Reun doesn't really care, but Florges and Suicune are still pressured by it. Molt isn't some unkillable god mon, but with the right team around it, there are so many matchups where it really is close to it. If it and its usual double Defog partner in Mandibuzz keep hazards off, as they usually can, then there's a high probability of just locking the opponent down entirely. Immediately crippling mons such as Aero, Empoleon, Seismitoad, etc. really can't be overstated, especially since there is less and less cleric support flying around. Like really, I don't know what we were thinking for so long when trying to fit offensive Moltres onto teams in this tier despite Wisp being stupid and other removal options not being good enough to justify using it in the first place. Again, bulky Defog Molt does need very specific and extensive support, but its ceiling is similarly high to that of Jellicent.

In general the metagame is significantly less bogged down and, in turn, more free-flowing, which implies multiple things in regards to Jellicent and Moltres. Their issues that have long plagued them and their fits on teams are either much less notable now or it is simply much more realistic to overcome in the builder around them. Additionally, their aforementioned favorable matchup against perhaps the most-spammed mon in the tier currently, being Mienshao, has not hurt their defensive niches by any means. The other main implication of the shift toward Mienshao-reliant bulky offense is that Florges has seen less and less usage. Mienshao itself generally takes that token Fairy role on a lot of its teams, and aside from that, Florges teams have a hard time keeping up with it Knocking everything off and pivoting in and out. Less Florges means less cleric support, which then means that Wisp burns are likely to stick for the duration of a game. It's really been a perfect storm for these admittedly still relatively niche mons. They still need their share of support, but this is easily the best space they have found themselves in. From there, Wisp lets them sling broken ORAS burns on 90% of the tier, giving them way more blowout potential than they should realistically have.

Pak · Feb 20, 2022

Krookodile Things

Krookodile has been considered a top tier Pokemon since the midst of ORAS UU's span as the current gen. A lot of this had to do with its biggest proponent, dodmen, who stressed the valuable traits it brought to the table that may have otherwise been overlooked to that point. Personally, I have never been a big Krookodile user, essentially because it doesn't fit naturally on the usual kind of stuff I use, but I have always had big respect for what the croc could do. Whenever I have found a way to fit it in, it has always pulled its weight at the least. However, this weight isn't just limited to clicking a strong Pursuit or whatever else. As time has gone along, I've only realized more and more how versatile the thing can be and perhaps there are more approaches out there for me to take advantage of that have yet to be explored.

Krook's flagship set has always been Choice Band. The thing is just outrageously strong and presents the user with a fantastic means of getting a bit more proactive. When I think of CB Krook, the first thought is always those generic Sylveon balances from back in the day. Toward the end of ORAS, Sylveon and Krookodile were super common partners due in large part to Krookodile's ability to deal with the Steels that plagued the pixie cat. This naturally came with the option of Pursuit trapping mons like Doublade or Metagross, and this was a time before DemonGross featuring Protect was really a thing. A lot of the time on these kinds of teams, Krook was the only one making meaningful progress. While it is and was a good breaker in a vacuum, it being the only real breaker made punching through opposing Sylveon cores all the more difficult. It wasn't uncommon by any means for two Sylveon balances to be entirely incapable of pressuring each other, resulting in drawn out boring games that turned everyone away from the tier in its state at that point. I've talked about the death of Sylveon and the boys 500 times, but yeah Krook had a lot to do with that whole process. There would be a shit load of teams that literally had their best move to hit Fairies as Krook's EQ, featuring great Pokemon like Tenta and Bronzong. Not to say it wasn't a very good mon; it just happened to be a huge staple in the worst iteration of the metagame.

Again, CB Krook was still very good and the counterplay to this day remains fairly limited. The best answers include things like Mandibuzz and non-Choiced Hydreigon, although they still must remain wary of the corresponding coverage move that can obliterate them. In general, Pursuit is just a valuable tool, taking advantage of some of Krook's favorable one-on-one matchups like Aero or Emp to get some positive momentum going in the user's favor. However, as I may have implied a bit, it does run into some issues. By issues I basically just mean it has to deal with being choice locked. Yeah yeah there's always a drawback when using roided up goons like this, but its especially apparent when DemonGross has picked up more and more. Aside from that, having the flexibility to switch moves is generally very valuable. Krook has some good ass moves to click, so giving up momentum in the process can be a little eh. Still a high payoff in the right setting, but a little past its prime for sure.

Helmet Krook is usually where it really shines on a consistent basis. The bog standard set remains Knock/EQ/Rocks/Taunt for maximum consistency and general annoyance, but it does have some wiggle room around the edges. Knock and EQ remain givens, but I would say all of rocks, Taunt, Stone Edge, and Pursuit have some merit. Rocks were pretty self explanatory, but Krook is one of the absolute best rock setters in the tier, applying some sort of pressure to nearly all of removers. One of the most crucial ones is Mandibuzz, which as mentioned earlier, is one of the hardest stops to CB unless it Edges on the switch. Knock + Taunt + Helmet really flip the matchup on its head and make the bird all but dead after their first interaction. Taunt does have some other fairly obvious uses, but it does leave Krook worse off versus foes like Aero and Crobat than it would prefer. As touched on in my UU snake dump, Stone Edge has some real merits on rocks sets, offering it a way to directly punish mons like them while still threatening Mandibuzz if they assume the more common Taunt. Krook is relatively loose into Mega Aerodactyl compared to other Grounds, so having that immediate punish can be really useful. I did use Pursuit rocks too as some point in the last year too. Pursuit is Pursuit, etc. and it does leave Krook immensely worse off into Mandibuzz. I did have it paired with Specs Sylveon though, which is basically the biggest punish to Mandibuzz teams in the game. Also, this Krook could effectively trap DemonGross, unlike its CB counterpart which kinda has to trade itself in the process. Fairly specific, but it is an option nonetheless in really supporting one of the tier's most prominent breakers. Whatever the combination of moves, the flexibility in switching moves goes a long way in consistently asserting itself and making meaningful progress game to game.

Scarf is fairly niche compared to other tiers like SM where it is clearly much more valuable. This is due in large part to there being less Pursuit targets overall, but it does have a place on some teams still. Speed control options aren't incredibly deep in ORAS UU, so getting the jump on Aero, Crobat, and whatever else can be pretty useful, while also offering a trap option for Celebi and Roserade. While not the greatest option, it's just another thing that goes to show that Krookodile has a bit more flexibility than you might think on the surface. Compared to its days as a one-trick breaker, it's certainly come a long way and it'll be interesting to see its interactions within the new metagame as it continues to progress.

dingbat · Mar 25, 2022

figured i'd make a proper post about the post conk meta now that i've played/watched enough battles to have a decent grasp on the new meta.

i've had my initial thoughts for a bit regarding what i expected and what surprised me within the hierarchy overhaul and i probably could have posted this entire thing in the vr instead, but i thought posting here would be a bit more fitting since a lot of it has more to do with the overall state of this meta anyways. gonna edit more in since i'm writing this mid-work shift, but these are the ones sticking out like a sore thumb rn.

as one of the earlier adaptors of av shao (see my 2019 uupl match vs gama as an example), the fact that this set has pushed shao to kingpin status actually came as relatively minimal surprise to me. there was plenty of potential for it to become a super annoying set, almost mirroring what it did in sm,

i was initially surprised to see crobat rise a subrank, but i fully understand why it's become even better now. in conjunction with shao's meteoric rise, i severely underestimated the impact of it having better item/moveset flexibility once again. with the relatively sorry state of bird resists, it offensive sets especially maintain their ability to be super dangerous when it lives long to see the opposing teams' resists slide down the drain (which happens super often despite the omnipresence of aero). i've also seen bulky sets still maintaining a huge presence here and for good reason; black sludge is always appreciated (even on its more offensive sets too) to ease the burden of roost. additionally i love the use of safety goggles too as it's become an even better deterrent to roserade + the occasional stun spore whimsicott, but i won't be surprised if i see people start running extrasensory to counteract that.

i'm not surprised that it fell off, but i definitely am with how far it fell in the vr. looking at the shit in c+ rank, i still think it's objectively better than almost everything else in there, but idk maybe i'm just not seeing things the way you guys are

sylveon is good enough rn to rise to a-. specs is absolute fire rn as it consistently gets its opportunities to wreak havoc with a fantastic partner in shao among other u-turners, along with a solid list of targets it can potentially hard switch into due to its respectable special bulk.

gligar should drop to b/b-. while its role compression is still nice for some teams, it's too easily taken advantage of in a lot of scenarios, and as a result, i almost always prefer running some combination of better ground-type + bat/mandi rn.

one threat i see having bigger potential rn is a fallen titan in entei. with arguably its biggest obstacle in suicune seeing what might be an all-time low in usage atm, the doors have opened once again for it to be a huge menace with broken ass sacred fire. while b+ is perfect for where it's at, it definitely exceeded my expectations in terms of how effective it is as a breaker rn, and i hope to start seeing it pop up a few times in uupl.

GraylyHen94 · Apr 11, 2022

Pak said:
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Greed Powder Continued

Welcome back powderers. I believe since my last post we've developed a good understanding of the term greed powder and have roasted its abusers accordingly. For that, I would like to thank you, even if it does not always prevent them from doing so in the future. If there's any play in Pokemon that deserves some nice public shaming, it is greed powdering from gen 6 onward. On that note, I wanted to clarify something real quick. In DPP UU there is an especially notable user of Sleep Powder in its king god Venusaur. It has been known from time to time to throw out greed powders itself, but because it is prior to gen 6 sleep mechanics, there is an added wrinkle. Sleeping mons can sleep for as much as 4 TURNS, which is honestly fucking outrageous and is also the case in ADV, though the main example lies in OU. But anyway, if we do some quick maths again, it would be the obvious 25% chance to miss, along with a 25% chance they wake up after one turn, as opposed to the 33% chance present in ORAS on. Between the miss chance and the chance to first turn wake, the chances of it benefitting the user at all rise to 56.25% along with a higher broken sleep ceiling of 4 turns, making it more excusable than that of the 50.25% chance of benefit with a sleep ceiling of only 3 turns. It remains a greed powder in some capacity, but from this point forward, in gens 3/4 it will be referred to as a "weighted greed powder" in favor of the user of course. GSC sleep is stupid and can last as long as 6 turns which is fucking ludicrous so yeah nothing wrong there. BW sleep as we all know is broken as shit since it just ohkos if they don't stay in and burn them all so no issues there either.

Today I also wanted to focus on another other aspect of the most cursed move from gen 6 onward, expanding beyond its traditional application. The most notable one is that of the stubborn powder. Here's an example. One player has a Roserade versus a Seismitoad. It is a favorable one-on-one matchup and the opponent should opt to get out of the way of a potential Grass move, you know because they want to keep it it's probably useful. The Roserade user opts to Sleep Powder expecting the switch, making it an optimal powder, but the issue is it misses the incoming Metagross because Sleep Powder blows 25% of the time. Now, theoretically, the Roserade player should switch if they can't kill the Metagross with anything, as this would be a perfect example of a greed powder. However, the key difference is that because they just missed an optimal powder, they are likely tilted and will often go for the follow-up greed powder to help make up for their loss in momentum. It is definitely a greed powder, no question about that, but because they just missed, no one can really fault them for clicking it again since they were just Pokemon'd. It doesn't make it any better of a play but you gotta have some sympathy there for the previously honorable optimal powderer.

Sleep is stupid, and don't forget to verbally abuse any greed powderers you see from gen 6 onward. Thank you.

VERY IMPORTANT EDIT: note that traditional greed powderers are not allowed to complain when they miss, but if you miss a stubborn powder after missing the initial optimal powder, you're allowed.

In Jared Tendler's The Mental Game of Poker he in detail describes tilt and entitlement. Those two feelings combine into stubborn powder and are the death of a player's mind. This happens in fighting games as well where you just HAVE to uppercut or throw tech again. If you get caught stubborn powdering because you're an entitled tilted loser then you will fuck up every game you play in. It is unacceptable to click it a second time without considering it's worth for a few minutes. Absolutely no one should be caught dead doing this while telling you they're a good player. You have to accept the miss and then act accordingly
Your first post on Greed Powder is one of the best posts I've seen on this site, on par with BKC's ban Scald thread. This is an excellent follow-up to your first post. Massive win for expected value enjoyers

Pak · Apr 23, 2022

UUPL Things

In a shocking turn of events I played ORAS again in UUPL this year. I didn't feel quite as in tune or enthusiastic going into it as I did in snake but it went alright. The main thing that bugged me, especially toward the end of snake, was just how hard it was to stray from my established 'good styles', whether it was Emp Bat, Mandibuzz Slowking, Mandibuzz Seismitoad, etc., which all have their own common implications and restrictions on the rest of the team. People still used a lot of flawed or dated teams so those kinds of approaches had an inherent advantage a lot of the time. This UUPL pool was stronger and more active, and it was a goal in my head to not default to the same old stuff every week. It involved looking for a lot of new combinations of mons or new takes on existing concepts, which was ultimately more enjoyable in a way than what I did in snake. Still, it was naturally more frustrating too, since ORAS is definitely a hard tier to build with the top mons gatekeeping a lot of other shit to do. Also, I have just played way too much of the tier in the last year or so, even if it is leaps and bounds better than where it was when Conk was banned.

The games themselves were pretty annoying too, mainly because there was relevant hax in basically all of them, one way or the other. Still, I'm weirdly happier with a lot of what I came up with along the way this tour than I was in snake, which of course saw more success comparatively. Historically I do think I'm a pretty good builder, but there are always moments in whatever tier I've been active in where someone will use something that literally would never have popped into my head. Granted, there are some hits and misses, but it did plant some seeds in my head that I was limiting myself in the builder in some capacity with fairly rigid views on certain things, even if what I'd done for so long had been working. The main two that come to mind here are my long time friends Ark and Killintime, who are constantly pushing the boundaries in ways I would never really conceive myself. Even if it isn't always ideas or whatever I agree with, their approaches to the game in general have been really inspiring.

If I'm not lazy I'll probably make separate posts for some of the ideas I had, whether they were used or not, though yeah the gist is that this tier has gotten pretty frustrating, but I am happy with the directions building went this tour overall. The main things are, like I've talked about before, the disparity of viability between rockers and hazard removers, Mienshao being an immortal piece of shit, and there being some fairly oppressive mons near the top of the tier. All together they do constrain what you can do a solid amount, but as seen below, there is still a good amount of room to branch out between various styles and still hold up in the majority of common matchups. The main things about my usage that kinda stick out to me are that I used 1 Mega Aero, 1 Mienshao, 1 Mandibuzz, and 0 Seismitoad. Historically these are all mons I've spammed, especially in the last year. They're obviously some of the best mons in the tier and very much worth using, but generally they do necessitate a lot of the same structures, at least without ending up as worse versions of proven concepts. So I guess my point is that even though things are still constrained, albeit not nearly to the extent of Conk meta, there is clearly much more to do beyond the ordinary teams I utilized for a lot of snake, which found themselves on the good but more standard-ish side, at least for the new post-Conk meta.

Pak · Apr 25, 2022

Mega Absol is Close to Being Great

If there's anything I regret about my team picks this year, it was not being able to fit Mega Absol into one, despite continuously trying to do so. Going back to even like 6 months ago, I never thought I would type something like that, but after a lot of theorization and testing, I do firmly believe it is a genuinely good mon. A bit after snake, I had the realization that Wisp is legit a broken move in this tier, due in large part to how much Florges has fallen off in usage and how few Fire-types are really running around in this metagame. So yeah I was looking through the things that got it, and Mega Absol sorta stuck out to me. I played a lot with it and the concept of it did rub off some on the rest of the pool, leading them to experiment with it themselves to decent success. Again, Florges has been at an all time low, and while it's still good, its drop off in usage has really opened up some of the offensive threats in the tier. It is especially apparent here, as Absol both: uses Wisp a lot and is walled by Florges with its main set. This main set is that of max Attack max Speed, Knock Off/Play Rough/Wisp/Tect. It isn't incredibly groundbreaking, but this thing really can be a menace. Unfortunately ORAS Speed mechanics suck ass, which does sorta force Protect over other coverage moves, but this is all it truly needs to be effective on a solidly consistent basis.

Protect's most important application is of course in that it lets Mega Absol counterlead into Mienshao, which is notoriously hard to punish early-game. It flips the interaction between the two entirely, allowing it to outrun Shao the next turn and immediately threaten it, letting it throw out more risk-free Wisps than you'd expect on the surface. Bulky Steels, or anything really, despises coming into the move. Like I said it has been used a few times by now, so there is less surprise factor to be had in these interactions, but Wisp in general is just a super unforgiving move that give this thing more utility than it realistically should beyond its already ridiculously strong STAB Knock Off. In this same vein however, easily the most infuriating thing about this mon is Magic Bounce, one of my least favorite abilities in the game, just from how much it can swing momentum in 1 turn.

Despite Absol not being bulky by any means, the combination of Wisp and Protect alongside it introduce a lot of mind games that are heavily skewed toward the Absol user. You can stay in to burn a Mega Aggron or just as easily Protect and switch out on their forced attack or do other things to fuck around with it. Seismitoads always gotta be watching out for blind Absol switches, etc. Perhaps its most notable interaction in the meta besides Mienshao is its one with Rocks Krookodile, which has essentially been the best offensive rocker around for years and years. Absol is such a dick for it and is really the only 'hazard control' that can give it major fits early if you position it right. While its matchup versus a lot of these rockers is far from ideal, just having that deterrent on your side that isn't present really anywhere else is pretty dope in a tier where the viability of its rockers far outweighs that of its removers. This is exacerbated by the newfound rise of HO. Mega Absol DUMPSTERS hyper offense. Good lord. They get no spikes. You outspeed basically everything. It's a great time.

Beyond Speed mechanics, the only thing really holding Mega Absol back is its shitty bulk. Honestly, it has about as much utility it could realistically have despite having 65 / 60 / 60 splits. Still, it's a major downside that means fitting it onto teams that really take advantage of its positive traits can be pretty tough. I swear I made like 10 Mega Absol teams this UUPL, and this thing would always pull its weight, but every team itself felt more like a B to a B-. It was kinda frustrating but I'd imagine I'll have better ideas down the line. It has such a unique set of positive attributes and definitely has a place in the tier. It's just going to take some time to sort out where its best utilized to offset its otherwise poor defensive utility that ultimately holds its teams back to some degree.

Wanka · Apr 25, 2022

Tough way to go out but regardless I felt like we did a good job in oras this season including bo3 so here are some things.

These two are like kinda inconsistent but I feel like are kind of outside the box variations of some other common teams that get used, which I like doing and using but their inconsistencies do show in tests and games. Top just kind of struggles scald in general so the cob is lum for that reason alone. That kind of opens up aero against the team though which is pretty scary, but I felt like this team had a lot of outplay potential regardless of some fundamental flaws. Adaam lost in a decently close game that exposed some of those flaws, but I like it regardless. The bottom one is fun and never got used but it's been average in tests. Absol is great for shitting on HO, but it's still somewhat of a fish albeit it still functions surprisingly well in matchups against opposing BO, which is a good trait. And I do like the backbone of gligar + toad with shuca support but glig being spD takes on a harder role of trying to check hydreigon while still being a fighting check when healthy. Tall task, but it works...sometimes.

All three of these saw games during the tour and did well, which I was pretty happy about. Accel really liked the top on and was kinda farming in tests with it, which I found interesting. I'm never really certain when sacrificing hazard control is appropriate in oras uu apart from full HO, but it can work on BO if you play well. I still feel like it's a high risk high reward team, but accel seemed to be really comfortable with it. It went 1-1 with some luck involved, but specs hydreigon and av shao are really good pocket monsters. second one features ramoswine because this is my favorite breaker in the tier right now. it's obviously something that is challenging to build with in terms of making something with a consistent backbone, but I just feel like it's sheer lack of common switchins gives it incredible potential in tournament best of 1s. Seismetoad bo cores literally have nothing that can directly wall this pokemon with freeze dry. Sadly mamo being your ground type isnt great for building and ice shard doing less damage than you need it to does blow. But, I still ranked it the highest out of anyone in the oras vr for a reason and It got a bit better post conk ban as a breaker. Adaam used it week 1 I believe in a win. Adaam also was able to grab a win with the bottom team as well, which is partly his creation. I had made this 6 as a skeleton wanting the beedrill to have toxic spikes but nothing else. Adaam basically filled in the rest, and it's been one of my favorite teams to use. It's kind of a variation of a pak team with aero over drill and gardevoir over sylv. I like the way it functions with bee though I think having aero AND doub does help against HO/BO more and it makes sense with garde being able to hwish your balance fuckers. It's kind of just a trade off having bee and t spikes to help against fatter shit along with lax and trying to manage HO/BO more with doub/mandi altho it can be hard. Bee and lax sharing some checks definitely helps bee function later in games after lax can hopefully severly weaken/take out a steel. Am also drawn to the raw power of sylv next to something like toad that takes advantage of empoleon.

Overall, I'm really happy with the way oras went for us record wise and I wish I knew as much about other old gens the same way. s/o to Accel and Adaam for listening to my rambles and also being able to do their own thing when they needed to and still win.

bn
-wunka

Pak · May 17, 2022

Florges is Still Good

Writing this on my phone so might fuck up some stuff. I’ve talked about a lot of shifts since Conkeldurr was banned and the metagame took a generally more upbeat turn toward Mienshao-reliant bulky offenses. This has had tons of implications, despite many of the same ‘good mons’ simply retaining their spots up top. Something I’ve mentioned time and time again, think my post about Wisp being broken, about how much less abundant Florges is. In the old days, it was largely spammed as much as it was in response to Bulk Up Conk being, as the kids say, fucking broken. It was the least actively abusable of the three only real answers to it, with the others being otherwise bad mons in bulky Haze AcroBat and Cresselia. Florges actually had positive traits beyond beating Conk, most notable handling Hydreigon, making it one of the most splashable mons in the tier and especially in tournaments. The presence of Conk forced the tier into a lot of balance v balance, and it took its ban for team types to really branch out and reach their offensive potential.

The move to Mienshao has definitely hurt Florges. There’s no real way around it. It’s usage expectedly fell off the map upon the broken Fighter’s ban. People were excited to finally load up teams that could beat Fighting-types with theoretically solid checks in to them, rather than defaulting to the same passive yet resilient ones that were way more necessary than they should’ve been. Additionally, Mienshao itself is functionally the Fairy-type on a lot of it’s usual teams. Obviously that isn’t true at face value, but Hydreigon has had notoriously few resilient checks throughout the years, and AV Mienshao presents one and can feasibly fit onto these more upbeat teams. It + Mandibuzz, Empoleon, Gardevoir, or whatever else is legitimately really solid into one of the most historically dominant threats in the tiers history. Of course these combinations were legal when Conk was around, but a lot of the time they’d just be asking to lose to Conk instead.

Anyway enough context. The point of this post is that I believe the pendulum has swung a little too far the other way. Florges remains a very good option in this metagame, but the approaches it requires are certainly different. The most notable difference in using it is that obviously it isn’t a great answer to Mienshao. If it’s on its own in handling most Fightings, then chances are that Florges will constantly be on the backfoot and the opposing team will leave you in the dust. As such, it’s no coincidence that the 3 times I’ve used (or planned to use) Florges in bo1 tournaments had it alongside other checks such as Pelipper, Moltres, and Jellicent. The less outright responsibility it has the better, and the truth is that that has always been the case. It is the same for those teams where 5/6 mons hard lose to Hydreigon and plop on a Florges. Having no midgrounds or differentiating lines leaves you in tough spots way more than it should when it comes to momentum especially. However, if it isn’t relied on entirely versus these mons, then it presents strong utility in the form of Wish and Cleric support too it is more than justifiable in this meta.

Ive referenced how good status has gotten as of late, and again that is in direct relation to people collectively moving away from the flower. Well, the flower is the obvious answer and makes teams generally much more resilient. It enables some really good mons and structures that would otherwise be impossible. Similarly, teams can easily not be as well equipped to handle its types of teams, compared to the old days of when it was a necessity of any truly good and consistent team. No other mon presents teams with what it does. It is definitely past it’s prime and isn’t nearly as splashable as it once was, and that is fine. However, just because things are more upbeat and offensive does not mean balance archetypes are unusable by any means, and that is largely due to what Florges can offer in the builder.

Pak · May 17, 2022

UUPL Sets

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Rapid Spin
- Filler

This one is fairly self explanatory, but Seismitoad has been one of the most reliable rockers in the tier for a couple years now. Its biggest draw over its main competition in Swampert is obviously Water Absorb, which for a while let it just throw itself into removers like Tentacruel and Empoleon. Empoleon has been running more and more Toxic or Grass Knot to help shore up this matchup. Similarly, I used Giga Drain Tentacruel week 2 alongside my Moltres on a hard balance team. Since Defog Molt loses to Seismitoad one-on-one, I couldn't really afford to let it sit on both of my removers. Presented some decent surprise factor too in that interaction. Much like any random Grass coverage on any mon, it has a huge payoff if it does land, but it is worse in pretty much every other matchup. For that reason, I'm usually skeptical if it's really worth, but it seemed like a necessity in that scenario and it ended up paying off in the game itself.

cade cunningmoth (Venomoth) (M) @ Insect Plate
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Psychic
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder

Venomoth is one of the most infuriating mons to lose to. It wins a lot of games it seems like it has no business in doing so. Some of that has to do with Roost making it pretty resilient, but I opted to Psychic when using it on HO. Getting hard walled by the now standard Safety Goggles Bat is really sad, and Psychic just nukes it most of the time after rocks while hitting some other stuff harder that's way less notable. Insect Plate guarantees that +1 Bug Buzz kills Aero after rocks and even gives it a small chance to clean OHKO from full. In general, the damage is pretty crucial given the set's more offensive nature. Really nice for helping it break through Mandibuzz and the boys too, which is one of the main tradeoffs of dropping Roost.

cade cunningham (Swampert-Mega) (M) @ Swampertite
Ability: Torrent
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock

The absolute #1 reason I mostly despised Rocks Mega Pert historically is how shittily it matches up into Mandibuzz. If you don't freeze the thing, then chances are you'll never be breaking through it, as obviously this thing is your rocker and hard loses to it one-on-one. I got mad and eventually theorized Stone Edge. It looks bad at a glance, but trust me it's pretty hot. Edge still OHKOs Aero of course, and Ice Punch kills after rocks. Realistically, in most situations you're only clicking Earthquake and Ice Punch, and Edge can flip one of its worst matchups on its head entirely. The only thing you really miss on is hitting Grounds super effectively, and my team was really good into most Grounds so I kinda said fuck it. Still, not having Waterfall was something I very rarely missed and it was the most fun I've had while fucking around more and more with different Pert sets. Also since Pert gets chipped down pretty quick as an Aero check, Doublade is usually there and appreciates one of its hard counters getting nuked.

Crobat @ Payapa Berry
Ability: Infiltrator
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Taunt

I was scared of getting Psychic Venomoth'd and that's really all there is to it. I guess it helps hard pivot into Celebi, but really it's whatever. Bat items can honestly be anything and most things are not much better than the other options. We've sorta reached the point where most people won't hard Sleep Powder into an unrevealed Crobat so I figured it was worth the gamble. Didn't come up but it was just another dumb tech I came up with in a specific team scenario.

Nidoking (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Toxic Spikes

I was going to use this against Killintime and at a glance it's one of those shitty random surprise value scarfers..and that's fairly accurate. Still, Scarf TSpikes seemed really cool to me, as you can TSpike as they will almost certainly pivot to Shao in most situations. They're not going to throw in their Empoleon or whatever other remover into a presumed LO Nidoking, so it gets them up way more easily than you'd think. TSpikes have high high upside, basically if they don't have Roserade, and this was a concept I came up with to try to incorporate them. Also something something surprise value in bo1s.

Pak · May 19, 2022

The Most Randomly Splashable Mon

Writing on phone so excuse dumb shit. I’ve talked about Scald being insane and oppressive a lot in this thread. There are only so many mons that can truly throw themselves into bulky Waters without much fear, and that is due in large part to the hot water. However, Scald isn’t the only factor involved. It is naturally the pre-requisite to dealing with bulky Water-types, but it isn’t the end all be all. Two of the most notable Scald switch-ins around are the Natural Cure Grasses in Celebi and Roserade. They of course don’t really care about burns or other status and match up well in most cases. However, one of their main pitfalls is that despite dealing with most Waters, Empoleon is annoying as shit for them. As for Celebi, Empoleon is literally the Celebi check a lot of the time, so naturally it isn’t an ideal initial Scald switch in these circumstances. Roserade on the other hand does a bit better, but Empoleon can easily fit Ice Beam and even has goggles Crobat alongside it most of the time.

This may seem like a lengthy intro to basically say “yeah viriz beats Empoleon it’s pretty dank” but in the context of ORAS UU that’s fucking huge. Its ability to deal with essentially all Waters and especially the penguin cannot be understated. In a similar vein to something like Heracross, it is a Fighting-type that can effectively threaten Slowking, a Water typically relied on as teams’ primary Fighting check as well. Virizion is obviously much worse off than Heracross offensively, making it a worse mon overall, but it has a ton of utility to help bridge the gap a bit. First of all, Heracross is in fact incredibly threatening and wins most one-on-ones, but that generally entails making trades in some capacity. After all, the reason Conk was the broken one between the two boiled almost entirely down to its superior bulk and sustainability. It wasn’t uncommon at all for it to stomach a hit and basically heal back to full between Drain Punch and Leftovers, which is basically what made it so stupid. Meanwhile, Heracross can be more immediately threatening with a better Speed tier, but once it eats a hit or two, it can be much more easily dealt with.

No, I’m not saying Virizion is the new Conkeldurr. However, it does have significantly more defensive utility than its main competition. SD STABs Synthesis has emerged as its most effective set, as the healing more lets it most sustainably check opposing Waters and special attackers like Hydreigon in some capacity. It really only needs its STAB moves to function as a sweeper. Sure, being stone walled by Crobat is ungood, but rocks are easy to keep up in this tier. Synthesis is generally more consistent and let’s you get more of the initial reason you put Virizion on your Pokémon team. It’s honestly a better sweeper than you’d think it is despite its piss poor atk stat and relatively mediocre STAB combo. Still, outside of Crobat, it does enough to a lot of the things that it theoretically supposed to struggle against. It OHKOs the other main Poison in Rose after some chip at +2, you easily 2HKO Florges at +2 while comfortably eating Moonblast, other common Flyings in Aero and Mandibuzz don’t resist Fighting, etc.

Running out of time here a little, so I’ll wrap this up. For a random weak RU-ish mon, it has a lot going for it in terms of dealing with ever-present Waters, sweeping potential, Speed tier, and defensive utility. It’s usable in other spots but some of these traits are especially notable next to Florges. It hard counters Empoleon for the flower, helps out in checking mons like Hydreigon and Krook which would otherwise be hard to midground against without Mandibuzz, and can outrun and threaten Mienshao. These are absolutely massive in limiting offensive opportunities of some of the tiers scariest threats. It can fit other places of course but yeah. Overall, great role compression and I often feel like I’m throwing this thing on teams way more than I should. Not that it’s a terrible mon on paper, but it looks like this meta has been a perfect storm of things thatve weirdly gone it’s way. Just incorporate some direct Crobat punishment and the mons pretty heat.

Pak · May 27, 2022

Things Slightly Faster Than Mienshao

Since Conk was banned and Mienshao started seeing the most usage in the tier, in the builder it's been a game of either taking advantage of Mienshao's strengths or trying to abuse opposing reliance on it. It isn't broken by any means, but the way Mienshao's effect on gameplay in the tier might be even more infuriating than Conk was in its hay day. That's simply due to the fact that it's fucking immortal and can throw itself into literally everything without being overly punished. You would think there would be a good amount of techs out there to help nip it in the bud as a threat, but its Speed tier, bulk, immortality, and insane utility make it a consistently massive pain in the ass. There isn't a ton of consistent defensive counterplay out there either. Generally, you can afford 1-2 slots as 'counters,' and fitting them onto teams isn't some insane task, but obviously they're still pressured in some capacity. I'm not saying this as some ban case though. What I mean is that even though Mienshao is a huge prick in the builder, there are other methods to help mitigate its impact on games.

The thing I hate most about using Mienshao is that it doesn't outspeed Mienshao. Like, unironically. If Mienshao is your second fastest mon, as it pretty much always is, then chances are that you'll have a little more trouble keeping opposing Shao at bay. It wasn't until earlier today that I realized that was a reason I moved away in some capacity from spamming Mienshao myself as of late. Unless Crobat is the fastest mon, then it's likely that you'll find yourself on the backfoot against opposing Shao more often than you'd prefer. You're naturally more inclined toward defensive members handling it, which as mentioned earlier can be really annoying as they generate more and more momentum on your Slowking, Jellicent, Gligar, or whatever else. They do handle it well in a vacuum, but a large part of what makes Mienshao so good is how effectively it can pisition its teammates in situations like these. Naturally, one of the best ways to minimize some of these offensive opportunities is through offensive pressure of your own.

I've talked about mons like Heracross and Gardevoir providing teams with offensive checks that force out Shao early, but there are more examples of mons that can turn the tables to some extent. In my recent posts about Mega Absol and Virizion, it wasn't really coincidence that I stressed their Speed tiers so much. The more avenues you have to deal with Mienshao, whether it is defensive counterplay, revenge killing, actively abusing it, etc., the better. The thing is so annoying and its teams naturally rely on it a ton to get their gameplans into rotation. However, limiting these chances goes a long long way in progressing toward your own goals before they can. Also, look at some of these mons. Mienshao can so often click Knock Off, then faster U-turn out to grab essentially all momentum and cripple its answers for its eventual onslaught. However, if there's a Cobalion or Virizion or whatever, mindlessly throwing out Knock Offs becomes signficantly harder, as they can actually be punished, crazy thought I know. They aren't counters by any means, but they do have a solid impact on how braindead Mienshao can play. Cobalion and Virizion are both piss weak unfortunately and can't kill Shao from full unboosted, but still having a revenge killer after a bit of chip and just a sweeper that doesn't care about it is nice in their own rights.

As for some of the mons I haven't talked about much, Durant and Infernape are both relatively niche compared to others, but occupy a similar role, capitalizing a lot on the popularity of Shao. Durant is something I used a LOT when the meta first shifted, and I do think it's really good, but it is definitely hard to bank on in a bo1 (not much of a coincidence I've strayed from it more and more since last classic, smoge). The thing really doesn't have great counterplay overall. Its combination of power, Speed, and coverage make it so tough to deal with, especially since it will pretty much always be faster than 5 of the opposing mons. Decent amount of flexibility too between various items and AOA or HC sets. A lot of things have merit and its a cool mon despite its defensive lapses as a Steel-type. Infernape on the other hand is something I've experimented a lot more recently, as Pearl especially was really big on it having some potential. The gist is that aside from Slowking, the tiers Fire resists haven't been the greatest by any means with the drop off in Entei too. Even then, things like Seismitoad would much rather see an Entei than an Ape that can do just about anything. The set I've been using most is some boosting plate with STABs, U-turn, and a utility move whether it is Wisp or Grass Knot. I haven't had many teams I've loved with it, but I think it's a pretty solid mon and gives a good amount of offensive punishment toward opposing Shao along with decent utility otherwise.

dingbat · Oct 22, 2022

hey, resident dumbass reporting in. been doing some team building lately for shit like oras cup/oraspl and decided to fuck around with stuff a bit outside of my comfort zone. here's a few of these ideas i've enjoyed playing with:

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Magnet Rise
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Grass]

magneton is an interesting anti-meta threat that i think is not only super underrated, but very effective in this current meta. it abuses teams relying heavily on many of the common bulky cores (i.e. seis empoleon, florges aggron bat, etc.), and in general has a favorable matchup vs a lot of the slower mons in the tier. the set i utilized completely eliminates any issues it had with its choice locked sets; it takes advantage of its annoying electric/steel/grass coverage that are otherwise nowhere near as spammable, it has much more leeway to tank scalds from fat waters (especially empoleon) with eviolite, and perhaps most importantly, magnet rise allows it to effectively trap steel types like metagross and aggron on its own without having to rely on chip damage to net KOs.

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail

i always thought this was a great set that was just harder to fit due to its role moreso as a sweeper that needs to be kept relatively healthy than one that just simply picks off weakened targets however long it stays alive for. i prefer adamant nature atm because it can guarantee kills on shit like nidoking unboosted and empoleon/krook at +1, but jolly is cool if u don't wanna get rko'd by 145s and scarf gardes. pair this up with stuff that can severely weaken fat waters and steels (magneton is unironically a great partner!!) and a healing wish mon like garde and it'll have an epic field day in a lot of matchups

other attack options include crunch and wing attack, but as far as i'm concerned, i think this is its most potent combination of moves to pull off a sweep

Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Toxic Spikes

dragalge aka kelp is one of these really niche mons that not only faces stiff competition from hydreigon as a dragon-type, but also the nidos and roserade as a poison-type. they not only have the distinction of being effective, reliable wallbreakers in this meta, but also they possess far better defensive typing and traits that make them far easier to build with; it also doesn't help that kelp is slow as shit too. that being said, it possesses a few really valuable traits that differentiate it from its closest competition. for one, it hits harder, way harder than its closest competition; adaptability turns its otherwise inferior power into a terrifying killing machine. what especially separates it from hydreigon is that it not only nukes fairies not named klefki with its secondary stab, but it has the distinction of outright OHKOING MIENSHAO WITH SPECS DRACO METEOR. another cool thing it can do is hard switch into any roserade lacking extrasensory (which i have run into exactly once) and then click draco meteor.

i've also tried building non specs with draco/sludge bomb/dtail/tspikes but found myself resorting back to nidoqueen/king on those builds so far

Pak · Apr 17, 2023

I havent posted in this thread for like a year which is pretty wild but just got done playing this tier in UUPL and have some thoughts. Similar to last year, I tried not to be as rigid with what I considered Good and try to give more things a shot. Now similar to my post for SM after snake, I have some Takes or general observations that I may or may not expand on at a later date:

Anything that learns Wisp is probably viable
HO is still viable but actually requires brain power now and is in a healthy spot
Virizion is the best Grass-type right now and it isn't an argument IMO
Celebi is like the 30th best mon in the tier, seriously that guy is in his worst spot ever and I honestly hate it
Rose is still good but definitely past its prime; I honestly have no idea what 4 moves to use most of the time
I think I've used 1 Mega Aero in the last 1.5 years of team tournaments. I think its much weirder to fit on teams than is generally recognized. Most of the time if I have it I feel weak as shit into fighters or feel pigeon-holed into certain team types.
The meta has adapted to Shao and its definitely still a bitch, but also past its prime
I feel compelled again to say Wisp is broken
With that said, I think Jellicent is overrated. Super flimsy defensively, OHKOd by Tox. Idk never feels great to me especially in the faster meta that has gotten less reliant on Shao.
Qwilfish is actually a gigachad mon. Best one on one check to fighters, soft checks Aero, layers up and keeps them vs Emp
If I had like 2 drinks in me and did my ORAS VR rn I may talk myself into Emp being 1
It is infuriating how little switches into Slowking of all mons
Reun would be so good if it had 5 or 6 moves OR could use Regen and Magic Guard
I tried to use Krook recently and it was pretty funny how shitty it felt into the Virizion spam
I don't think I'm on the Florges is bad train yet, but I do think many teams with Florg are bad
Every time I want to bitch about SM removal moving forward I will think about how ORAS has like 1.5 options

Edit: this is probably the best the tier has ever been post 2015, disregarding the first like 3 months of the tier when conk was first banned and you could do literally anything

Sylvi · May 29, 2023

After playing in both UUPL and UUFPL a solid amount of tournament and playtesting a bunch, I wanted to share some thoughts and conclusion I reached. I will just do a list of thoughts, what I think:

Aqua Tail on Mega Aerodactyl is way better than ppl think, hitting Krookodile, Rhyperior for much more is way more important. Droping Roost / Pursuit / Crunch isn't bad
Bulky Offense is arguable the best archetype in this Tier, ORAS Burn forces way to much and quick progress. It has many tools especially Mega Absol and Virizion to keep up Speed.
Talking about Speed, slow Teams are not great, you get overuned easily by the combination of Wisp & Knock and the threat of being OHKO / git for large dmg. Crobat or Mega Aerodactyl as only speed Control is not great since it forces to come into Rocks more often than u wish. Priorities are very good, e.g. Ice Shard, Extreme Speed as they serve as Fake Speed Control
Twave is underrated, while Burn being superior Status random Twaves on e.g. Hydreigon and Cobalion can come in clutch
Whimsicott is great, Encore fills hols while forcing progress on Hydreigon and specs variants on Waters. Scald Burn doesn't matter often since you just need that 1-2 Times to pivot in and out to get the Team moving
Mienshao is good since it is annoying pivot but meta adapted with 108+ Pokemon which threatens it, get worse but still solid. Shao things
HO in great Spot. Thanks to access to fast Taunt to deny Defog it forces Progress quite easily. You need to manouver well and play accordingly to your wincon, not as straight forward as it is in other Tiers
Donphan is a real Pokemon as Ground Removal
Clerics to slow and get Taunt on, can still work but are punishable
Offensive Rocks Metagross is good, hits many foes for good dmg, Grass Knot is a real threat.
Infernape is awesome, all Sets with Wisp and All Out LO are great.
Reuniclus is awesome, primarly LO and Leftovers. Many Teams loose to it on Preview and can have defensice merrit on viri and free Turns on defensive Structures.
Jellicent is hit or miss. If wisp spread, spikes mirrors with spin removal, tspikes without nice way to get rid of them you play 5v6. If not you feel like playing 7v6. Fits either on offensive stuff as blanket check or on spikes as taunt meanie and spinblock, nothing else or it will feel mid. Night Shade is best Version, don't be Sub Fodder. Also play a lot of speed, you need to outspeed Seismitoad or if you can even Florges. Then you feel like cheating
Entei and Mamo need support, but if they have it feel unfair unless hard counters
Every Team needs Burn answer, either fast paced Teams need Viri or outpace burn damage or defensive Teams Reuni / Seismitoad / Fire Types. You will loose easy games if ur outplay is not get burned by Scald.
For this Reason I don't like fat or even stall. Feels very rough to play into taunt/wisp/fast paced teams. But have their merit as the past prove.
Anti-Berries are insane, Shuca Especially, you always trade 1 for 1 and a half at minimum, while messing around with the prediction of your opponent. Offensive Empoleon is real in this regard
Magneton can work
Bronz is fish only, Forre is a real Pokemon
Mega Sceptile, Mega Absol and Mega Aggron are the most consistent Mega Evolutions for me
Rhyperior is underplayed, trades 1 for 1 often, even more
Celebi stinks
Gyarados is great und p much customizable. Charti Gyra (for maero primarly) is funny, so worth mentioning
RestTalk + Aroma is the best way to play Clerics as a way to beat Burn
Every mon with Will-O-Wisp is worth considering
Alomola is not that bad
Gligar is good
Escavalier is nice
Heracross is a real threat you have to consider
Rocky Helmet is broken, so many U-Turn Bots.
Crobat is insane good, Taunt Variants
Mandibuzz only good if it carries one of Knock Off / Taunt / Toxic otherwise mediocre, physically defensice with Brave Bird is viable

Might as well post longer Versions of some stuff, that concludes some Stuff I wanted to share. This tier is by far the most fun I played in my time. Hyped for ORASPL to watch this tier in action soon

Sylvi · May 31, 2023

Faster-paced Teams are easier to play

In my recent post, I made the statement that fast teams are in a strong spot in the current meta right now. To expand this thought, I want to write about the reasons why I came to this conclusion in the first place.

1. Entry Hazards

I would argue that getting stealth rock up is quite easy in this metagame since the most popular setters, :Seismitoad:

and

will switch in on the things they tend to check eventually and get them up after soaking up the damage. Thanks to their bulk and good defensive utility, they are able to do so. Other setters like :metagross:

,

and

also have good defensive matchups, but they often shine with offensive counterpressure. Rhyperior can come in on most fire types and flying types. :Metagross:

can do this for fairies, while being more proactive than Mega Aggron if it is offensive, and :Krookodile:

has good speed and intimidation to survive a hit eventually. Other more rare examples like :gligar:

,

and

are also good at their jobs, either soaking up damage and getting up the turn after or applying enough offensive pressure.

2. Trading and Value

Most of the Mons do not have a direct way of stopping the removal, but they have tools to get a net positive trade. :Rhyperior:

hits every defoger for very good damage, even threating a KO. :Aggron-mega:

can toxic the defoger or hit them with Earthquake or Heavy Slam for a good chip. :Seismitoad:

has the threat of scaling burn, toxic, or ground attacks for :Empoleon:

.

can either be toxic and annoying if played with a bold nature or threaten huge damage to KO with an offensive spread and even a life orb (s/o Expulso for the GK idea). Basically, they all punish Defog and Rapid Spin in some way, and most importantly, they can either keep attacking, come back later and get them up again, or just get them back right after. Imagine you defog with your :mandibuzz:

just now, got toxic, and they get them right back after. In some way, they all deny removal, but not directly. If the opponent does not want to be removed in the turn, you try to punish them and get scalded or attacked for huge damage. You both trade HP bars, but you keep them up. This is a trade that is often worth it if you know your team will profit if the layers stay.

2.1 Fast Taunt

I didn't mention :Krookodile:

for a reason since it has the move Taunt, which prevents Defog as a whole from happening. It also prevents other status moves, like opposing layers and healing moves. You can often get them up on Hyper Offense (where :Krookodile:

as Rocker truly shines) while simultaneously denying opposing layers and forcing progress with Knock and Earthquake while chipping with Rocky Helmet or living with Anti Berries to trade for threat. It is always the question, "If I deny this move for my opponent's health and even my own life, is it worth it?" If your team is structured to set up on taunted foes or to outspeed them for damage, it might be worth it. I fell in love with Taunt :crobat:

since it stops for years, Clerics, get good momentum going and have the threat of Brave Bird. :Cobalion:

is another more rare taunt user but worth trying, they often expect to get a free turn and get them up or try to recover, and then you hit them and you are in good shape. In general, taunt is undervalued on Pokemon who are faster than the majority of removal and setters.

3. Speed

Finally, we come to my original claim that a fast pace is good after establishing that removing hazards isn't easy and that there are two main ways of denying it. Why does it matter for fast-paced teams? Well, Hazard is forcing progress after all, the damage on the switch stacks up eventually once you are behind. For example, I took the claim that :absol-mega:

is a worth Pokemon since it is fast enough to outspeed foes and either kill them with Play Rough or burn or knock them to cripple. Well, you can just stay in with :Empoleon:

, for example, and threaten with Scald. But it was never the goal of :absol-mega:

to sweep, it is the goal of trading the Mon away. You need to succeed. For example, a special attacker that gets blocked otherwise by :Empoleon:

. Once it is low, or even dead, it can freely operate. This falls under my claim in 2.0 with trading.
But really fast foes like :beedrill-mega:

and

can threaten for super effective damage and KO. While the bee can come in on fairies and force you to turn chip, knock, or even poison jab and make the way in for a breaker, :sceptile-mega:

threatens every water that doesn't resist Leaf Storm. Scarf users like :Hydreigon:

,

, and

have many free turns on foes. Every Pokemon that generates free turns on some matchups can be chosen. For me, even :entei:

(s/o Pak), :Heracross:

, and even more quirky stuff like :toxicroak:

can have viable arguments. 108+-based speed Pokemon like :Infernape:

,

, and

can also be just enough to outspeed the majority of the opponent's team. If your speed is solely a Rock Weak Pokemon you might end up in a Situation where u get resilient chip and get yourself in situations where you are lowerthan you wanted, since you often play up vs. up in current ORAS UU. But we have now established the fact that you are faster and get some good matchups due to typing, why does it matter if I can just switch out?

4. Positioning yourself

Now you have the freedom to dictate the pace of the game since your opponent is forced to play defensively. :sceptile-mega:

with the 4a Set can get good pressure going with crucial predictions, and with the Move Giga Drain + Leaf Storm (or Roar Sets with Layers up), decide when to drop the "nuke" and when to lower your special attack. In context of 2, you can also decide what you need to hit and what not. What is the midground for your opponent? Attack or switch out. The bee falls into the same flaw, double in when needed, get your U-turn chip if needed for something else, you knock or poison jab. It feels like you are the one who decides how something is played out and what not. The deadliest combo for this is the addition of Will-O-Wisp on offensive foes. Scarfing :Darmanitan:

with Wisp even forces progress on your :jellicent:

,

. Of course, you can also U-turn around or click Flare Blitz, it is up to you how you position yourself. Same goes for :entei:

. If you hit the coin flip on Sacred Fire and are faster, the progress is unfair. The counterplay from the opponent would be in other games to prevent, such as taking initiative and predicting opposing plays. And for certain, this playstyle of mine I am describing is punishable once known. I'm not trying to claim it is my own idea of playing that way, BKC did a great video of positioning explaining this concept better than I could.

5. Conclusion

My point is that with a more fast-paced team, it feels so easy to play, thanks to ORAS Burn, Rocky Helmets, easy trading, and opening the door for slow setupers like :reuniclus:

or

or cleaners like :mamoswine:

or

, knocking off the walls with no recovery, and the general good damage in ORAS UU (seriously, everything hits like a truck).

And my sworn enemy #1, :Florges:

Strutures, can't keep up with those trends of rising power and other bolded and explained things. They rely on being sturdy with :aggron-mega:

wishing and aroma here and there. They lack the tools to punish, and always falling behind in tempo while getting the Hazard damage every turn feels like a slow death to me playing those. I think every team with viable progress-making tools and good Pokemon who trade well is good right now.

6. Examples

Note: Sorry, I can't leak others teams; one of them is in my rmt and I'm planning to make another one on the HO Team.

Some of the teams I played for during the UUFPL follow the same concept I discussed earlier. Mons that are faster than your opponent and can force progress while constantly threatening either damage or status while tending to be faster than your opponent Eventually I reach the endgame, so one of my mons can sweep or just attack, attack, and attack to clean.

7. Outro

I hope it was instructive enough to understand what I was trying to say. It was my first time writing a report about a specific topic. I have trouble making my point sometimes, but I am trying my best to improve. If there are questions, I am willing to answer them in the UU Discord, in DMs, or on Smogon. Thank you so much for reading it if you made it this far. It means a lot to me. I just like having fun playing this game. Until next time! (:

Pak · Jun 6, 2023

Pacing Rambling and Mega Swampert

It's been a hot minute since I wrote one of these posts, but I'm bored without much to do at work so I felt like throwing back to the college days. I haven't played mons basically since UUPL ended, but I feel like in that tour, how I saw the tier evolved a good amount so there are a few topics I wanted to talk about in some form. Historically, when people think of ORAS they would generally think of a very balance heavy tier. Lots of Florges bulky Water bulky Steel type of cores that theoretically can beat most things defensively and check all the other boxes you generally think of when building a team. This was due in large part to how constricted the tier was around its top two threats, Conkeldurr and Hydreigon. There was only so much to do without straight up ignoring something blatant that would invalidate your team's overall viability. As I've talked about extensively, with Conk's ban and the rise of Mienshao, the tier's pace as a whole has only continued to increase. It has only gotten harder and harder to get away with those do-nothing-ish type balances that do not make a ton of immediate progress. I built a ton in UUPL and tried a good amount of approaches with Florges specifically, but it felt increasingly difficult to justify. There are so many offensive options in the tier that it is tough to be super super cohesive defensively while still checking all the boxes you need and having actual ways of making progress. You just naturally end up on the backfoot in a lot of common scenarios, and in ORAS as a tier, that isn't a super easy task to recover from.

That kinda feeds into my main point. It was not a coincidence that I avoided the more generic balances and went more upbeat as a whole. I have always been a big proponent of consistency above all else with teambuilding. The difference is now, instead of having a firm, resilient answer to everything like in the Conk days, consistency is found in the breakers and general offensive pressure. Your team might check everything on paper, but if rocks are staying on your side because of how much better the setters are than the removers and the opponent is constantly putting you on the defensive with Mienshao's momentum or other mons' powerful attacks, it adds up pretty quick. That has been the most noticeable shift for me in the last few years, which has been a little trippy for me given how check-list intensive the tier used to feel. It still is to some extent, but now it is much more about generating your own pressure or executing your gameplan faster in a more similar vein to tiers like BW and SM. It is still nowhere near the level of those two, but it is definitely much much closer than it was in the old days.

This leads to Mega Swampert more specifically. In essence, my view on it reflects what I've been rambling about really well. When the tier was much more checklist oriented, I very rarely ever used this mon. That is due in large part to the fact that it is easily worn down as a check to Mega Aero and other mons Waters are meant to handle, as well as being OHKOd by Entei, which of course used to be much more prevalent in your mind when building. Sure it was strong as hell, but I was always a more defensive minded builder when it came to stuff like that, trying to remain consistent into the common threats. Also, I was not a huge fan of the common sets themselves. Basically everyone knows where I stand on the one-time sweeper types in this tier. Simply put, I generally don't like when a mon is a 0 defensively because it has to be perfectly healthy for a late-game clean. This carried over to Rain Mega Pert for me and still does for the most part. The other main one I'm referring to is STABs Ice Punch offensive rocks. This set does on paper combine its great bulk with its potent offense, but its singular matchup into Mandibuzz was enough for me to hate it. You wouldn't be able to keep them up because you lost the 1v1, and it could continually come in since you could not keep rocks.

It wasn't until I started really favoring Stone Edge over Waterfall that I realized how much of a game breaker it could be. I’ve talked about it a bit before but Edge is obviously what lets it flip the matchup vs Mandibuzz, letting it keep rocks and also win the 1v1. You miss Waterfall much less than you think you would, and Edge is mostly become my default. There are very few mons that can compress so much utility, between its natural bulk, insane offensive power/coverage, and ability to reliably set rocks. There really aren’t firm answers to this mon out there besides like Crocune, which even takes a bit more than it would like to itself. Things like Slowking and Seismitoad take really solid chunks from neutral EQs as well. Throw this thing or another offensive Ground like Mamo on with a Healing Wisher and profit. It randomly became one of my favorite team types this tour despite never really experimenting with it before. This inclusion may seem kind of random given the rest of the post, but Mega Pert really does epitomize prioritizing your own progress making with its consistency as a rocker and wallbreaker as opposed to entirely leaning on a Water defensively like you ordinarily would otherwise.

Pak · Aug 25, 2023

The Best Wisper is Past Its Prime

Something something slow at work im bored and it’s a perfect time to ramble for the 14 readers. I don’t post here nearly as often as I used to, but as of late, you may have noticed how much I have talked about the rise and prevalence of Wisp within the last couple years. Not going to entirely rehash, but the short version is that Florges and clerics in general are at an all time low, so teams are much more naturally vulnerable to status. With Scald being as centralizing as it is in this metagame, a lot of teams inherently have status counterplay in that form, but Wisp answers are entirely separate from Scald answers. Additionally, the rise of Mienshao has led to a much more upbeat tier that makes playing a more hard balance-orientated style increasingly difficult over time. It has never been more free to throw out Wisps and basically OHKO mons with how broken ORAS burns are.

The epic plot twist you might have expected from the title is that despite being the prototypical Wisp user for years, Jellicent is in its worst spot in I don’t know how long. This comes in a super stark contrast to just a couple years ago where it was easily in its best spot. Following the Conk ban, it was the perfect storm for Jellicent itself. Mienshao use was at an all time high by a country mile, and a lot of people were still just using old teams that didn’t have Conk. Both of these were huge factors that worked in its favor. The former is more obvious. Jellicent is one of the best defensive checks to Mienshao, and the obscene Mienshao rise also applied a general Wisp weakness in the tier. As for the latter, the metagame was just in a really weird spot. As noted, a lot of people were just using old teams from Conk meta that were still legal. A lot of winning in mid-late 2021 was just using a team that took advantage of the newfound freedom with Conk gone while the team across from you probably didn’t. 1) Jellicent itself was great into the slower paced balances used in Conk meta. 2) Jellicent was always held back by how restricted the tier was previously. With there being much more freedom, it was never easier to support it and fit it onto teams just for it to dumpster these teams of old.

As you might have expected, the metagame eventually shifted. As noted in posts like my most recent one, the tier has never been more fast paced. It’s less about covering everything defensively like the old days and more about executing your own game plan before the opponent can. I never ever thought that would be the case given how matchup based and clunky the tier used to be, but that’s where we have landed over time. To be blunt, it is hard to build a generic Florges team that won’t just get run over by the upbeat squads that are taking over the meta. It’s still possible of course, but this is the worst Florges has been in a long long time. Ironically despite the drop of Florges and rise of Shao post Conk ban, the tier has largely adapted to Mienshao as well. It is not nearly as effective on a game to take basis as it once was. That statement is hilarious considering I literally said at one point “Mienshao isn’t broken but it might be more infuriating to deal with than Conk” because of it seemingly being immortal with a lot of streamlined, unpunishable lines it presented. It’s still very good of course, but there are clear drawbacks to spamming it like we used to.

Enough history telling. Going off of these developments, Jellicent has run into some pretty relevant issues once the dust has settled. Mienshao itself is past its prime, so its defensive uses have taken a decent hit and there are less teams that outright have issues dealing with it. Other fighters like Heracross and the huge rise of Virizion have made things much more complicated for it defensively. This goes along with the fact that Jellicent’s primary drawback has always always been its lack of general defensive utility compared to other Waters. Because it has always had to go so fast to Taunt stuff like Florg and Seismitoad, it was even more frail on the physical side than it already is. To put it frankly, it sucks into Mega Aero, Mega Pert, Doublade, etc, which your waters are generally meant to handle. Compressing roles where you can is huge in ORAS and Jellicent is doing that less than ever as a bulky Water. Additionally, Jellicent’s biggest asset for years was the fact that no one looked at their team and even conceived a weakness to Will-O-Wisp. You just kinda handled Jellicent through how you’d handle other Waters, which did not always apply super well. However, other Wispers like Moltres and Absol have popped up more and more. This is a double whammy in that both of these mons are Wisp counterplay themselves, and that they have brought Wisp into the public eye with how fucking good it is. I never thought I’d see the day that we’re actively considering Wisp weakness given how shitty we used to see all these mons. Last thing - Jellicent’s also OHKOd by other status moves so fitting it is even harder with clerics being at an all time low too. This whole chain reaction has been super super interesting to me so yeah wanted to touch on it some. Jellicent still offers things that no other mon can and it’s still very much usable, but it has seen better days for sure.

Pak · Aug 26, 2023

Aero Rambling

Getting an oil change so need something to do. Mega Aerodactyl has been universally seen as a top 2-3 mon for years and years at this point. That remains the Correct take. There really isn’t any other mon that does what it offers. The first notable trait is that it is 1) incredibly naturally fast 2) isn’t arguably a bad pokemon. I know there are some Sceptile and Beedrill diehards out there, but there is a reason that you don’t see them thrown onto teams quite like they used to be in 2015 or so. The two have some very clear drawbacks, which I could probably cover in a separate post but both have largely fallen out of tournament usage recently. They’ll have matchups where they’re incredible, then have just as many where they can’t get going and feel useless. The two other main fast mons, being Aero and Crobat, simply do not have that problem. ORAS in general is a very slow tier, and these two are the only non scarf revenge killers that are truly consistent in their roles. There will never be a game that they’ll be completely useless or you’ll regret having them if having them in the first place makes sense for your team. This will basically never change for either one.

However, there is a reason that Aero is universally seen as the superior mon to Crobat despite their similarities. Sure, Crobat learns a lot of slick random utility moves like Taunt, Super Fang, etc., but ultimately it is going to do roughly the same thing for whatever team unless you’re doing wild shit like CB or Nasty Plot. On top of its far superior immediate offensive presence, Aero is truly versatile beyond putting one different move that is ultimately not that big of a deal. This is said for a lot of mons and isn’t always justified, but Aero actually can fit on any playstyle from HO to stall. What it offers is that valuable. Its most prominent trait aside from its speed in peoples mind has to be Pursuit, letting its users play more proactively around mons like opposing Crobat, Roserade, Beedrill, the list goes on. It also deters Fighters such as Mienshao early on, which cannot be said for many mons. It also can just as easily act as a sweeper through the use of its less common Hone Claws set. The thing with Aero is that sure, it is going to have plenty of reliable answers given how necessary bulky Waters and Steels are for general team structures. However, the key distinction with these consistent answers is that almost none of them have real recovery. The counterexamples are Slowking and Suicune, but Slowking in itself is a much looser answer than you would prefer, and Suicune’s usage has been declining for years despite being a good mon in its own right. The tier is getting faster and faster paced, and Aero has done the same kind of shit it’s always done while benefiting on paper off of how much more offensive the tier is becoming. In essentially any game, Aero can realistically function as a wincon provided that you have the tools around it to chip down their defensive answers.

So yeah Mega Aerodactyl is a certified Good Mon. There is no denying that and that will never change. Still, I can’t help but point out the fact that I have used something like 1 Aerodactyl in the last 1.5 years. That is by no means reflective of Mega Aerodactyls general place in the metagame, but it has only made some of my less conventional thoughts on it more prevalent in my head over time. Again, there is so much good going for it, but it does come with some implications, and I think my recent lack of usage is due in large part to those, which are mostly relevant in the builder. Just going to rattle some off -

Fastest mon Aero means you don’t have anything faster than opposing Aero, so you either have to use two hard defensive answers or risk being flimsy as hell into it. You can use a scarfer alongside it of course but that can imply in itself that your team isn’t orientated enough on making immediate progress which can already be tough to fit.
This is more of a me thing, but I would never use Bat + Aero due to overlap on roles and weakness to rocks and Steels and all that, semi similar to me hating to use scarfers alongside it. As such, it feels like there are only so many routes to to about handling opposing Fighters. Slowking is the most obvious one, but you’ll essentially never be good into mons like Heracross and Virizion (besides Doublade for the latter) which are only on the rise. Tldr being a fast Flying type but not resisting Fighting kinda sucks.
As noted, every team in ORAS is going to have 1-2 hard answers and possibly a revenge killer for Aero unless it’s a bad team. Aero itself is not doing a ton to pressure in incoming Seismitoad or whatever besides thudding into it with a Flying move. Aero itself is usually never ever carrying rocks given how important other moves are so there isn’t a it can do into its hard answers without seceding momentum.
The matchup into opposing Aero and Fighters alone make it really hard to truly break the mold from what a traditional Aero team looks like. Personally I always try to find some new approaches in building where I can and it’s only gotten harder over time to branch out while incorporating it.

Again, I cannot stress enough that Aero in itself is a fantastic mon as I highlighted earlier. I just think that it is not the slam dunk on-another-plane-of-existence mon it’s historically always been seen as. The builder issues I noted are very real and apparent to me. If I were to do a VR update right now, I am not entirely sure how I would place the top 5 or so. Aero is without a doubt a top 5 mon still, but it, Hydreigon, and Mienshao aren’t as dominant as any of them once were. That’s a topic for a different day but it’s just incredibly interesting how so many historically good mons like these three and others feel like they’re a little past their prime but are still loosely in the right spot for their original rank. The tier is in an incredible place to me and it has never felt more balanced than besides like 2015 UU open meta that everyone loves. Yes, that even includes when we first banned Conk and you could literally do anything you wanted.

Pak · Aug 28, 2023

Mienshao's (Slight) Drop Off

Writing again has been fun and I felt like doing more so here we are. A topic I have beat to death with my most recent posts about this tier is how much faster things have become. Games are becoming increasingly dependent on exerting your own offensive gameplan rather than being absolutely perfectly covered versus all the other metagame threats on paper. This is again due in large part to Conk's exit, which was bound to have ripple effects for years to come. Conk in itself had such limited counterplay that it entirely warped this concept. Its Bulk Up set had like 3 real answers that you could semi feasibly put on teams, being Florges, Cresselia, and Haze Crobat. One of the worst aspects of dealing with Conk is that basically all consistent counters to this set as you may notice are all incredibly passive, especially if they have to remain healthy enough to consistently handle Conk long term. In that way it was a double whammy in how its departure affected the tier. 1) Teams could simply do more, not having to fallback on the same defensive structures nearly as much, as there was only so much you could do to reliably handle Conk while also doing well into the greater metagame, and 2) you were not forced into nearly as many passive sequences just from the nature and reliance of depending on those same cores. Mienshao itself is a mon that breeds an upbeat style, so it was no surprise that the tier only got faster over time. It was the dawn of a new age and Shao was the one leading the charge.

As noted again and again, when Conk left there was a huge power vacuum. You could theoretically do so much more purely because Conk wasn't there to crush your dreams as it did for me roughly 7000 times in the span of like 4 years. Mienshao and its team structures became the new default and for good reason. It took full advantage of the previous incredibly passive counterplay given how much momentum it naturally generates versus bulky teams. Stuff like Florges just gets Knocked once on the switch then eventually just gets Poison Jabbed down, Cresselia is more useless than ever, etc. It fundamentally shifted how teams would need to be structured in order to not just get run over by the new age bulky offenses. Crobat had a much easier time adjusting, as it could shift to more universally useful offensive sets, but even that in itself made things more difficult for the bulkier structures from before. Shao was just such a prick for all the old teams people would keep spamming from Conk meta since they were still legal and not many established new teams even existed yet.

The time period following this was a little murky for me personally. The new toy syndrome of the immediate post Conk exit meta wore off quicker than I thought it would, but I guess a big part of that was the sheer amount of ORAS I was playing at the time. I want to say it was in that UUPL 2022 range where I had just played ORAS cup, ORASPL, UUSD, and then UUPL all back to back in succession, which was like 20ish bo1s and then more. The metagame overall was still so much more free than it was, but it still just got more and more annoying over time. As I said in one of my last posts, there was a point where I said “Mienshao isn’t broken but it might be more infuriating to deal with than Conk”. It took a while for me personally to try to go from checking everything perfectly defensively to having to take a more upbeat approach to out-offense mons like Shao, but as I've alluded to, I feel like me and the other builders in the meta have come to realize that's more than manageable in the last year or so.

Mienshao is still a top 5 or so mon with what it offers teams as a glue with its AV set and its versatility with other more breaking-oriented sets like LO and CB. That much will probably not change for at least a bit longer, but it has certainly taken a step or two back, just as many of the other top mons have as of late. The metagame adaptations to it have been relatively straightforward. In Conk style ORAS, there would basically always be 5 mons slower than Mienshao. It was a much more balance heavy metagame where defensive synergy was the main point of focus. Shao could easily pivot in and out, annoying everything and never dying. Now, mons like Virizion, Mega Absol, even Infernape or Durant have popped up more and more, offering teams much more clearcut ways of punishing Shao offensively along with the old suspects like Aero and Crobat. I theorized the modern Absol set due in large part because of how well it could deter Mienshao early and make progress for its own side off the bat. These mons have other selling points, but it is undeniable how much of their newfound viability and usage has been because of their slightly superior Speed tier to the new dominant Fighting-type. Mons like Heracross and Mega Swampert have seen recent rises again as well, and it is not a coincidence that they happen to win the 1v1 vs Mienshao and force progress for their own side. As mentioned earlier, Crobat is as big as ever and can spark more momentum in the user's favor with how much more offensively inclined it can go now. Moltres is fucking SICK. Qwilfish has unironically been on a big climb, checking all the main Fightings and easily maintaining Spikes in most matchups. Similar to Mega Aero, there is also an implication that if you are using Mienshao, then chances are you are going to be worse into opposing Mienshao simply due to Speed tiers and what is generally expected of the other team members. The list goes on, and basically all of these Pokemon or trends mentioned have valuable traits in their own right and can reasonably fit on viable team styles.

This one ran a bit longer than I usually like, but all of these slight metagame shifts really did add up over time. Mienshao is still a very good mon, but it does not feel nearly as immortal or omnipresent as it did for the first 6 months to a yearish of the post Conk metagame. Honestly despite Shao not being broken by any means, its slight decline has made the tier much more enjoyable for me personally, purely because of how braindead Mienshao lines tend to be or how it can limit certain team types. I keep saying this in previous posts too, but a lot of these developments are so cool to me. You would think that Mienshao would only get more powerful over time given the offensive nature of the tier, but it has actually been the opposite over time as things have adjusted to out-offense the braindead Fighter.

London Beats · Jan 20, 2024

The Brilliant Renaissance of The All Blue

When I was first introduced to ORAS UU I was told that burn was obnoxious, and so it is. There are very few ways to deal with it in terms of defensiveness, always having to cope with either heal bell users, water absorbs, and lastly but not least natural cures (Lum pokemons as well). Any pokemon that own such a defensive niche are already explored and they very likely serve structures that are more than public and where experimentation is quite limited. But in ORASPL I decided to give a try to a pokemon that was kinda forgotten by everyone, and it gave me huge wins not only in tests but also important games, Blastoise-Mega. The descent in popularity of Jellicent has opened a window for blastoise in order to supply a role very little mons are able to: being a resilient water type, immune to scald in long terms, and a defensive check of aero. The combination of all of these, and the ability this pokemon has to sustain games basically by itself it's just incredible, many times I've seen myself in situations where my way of winning been circling sequences of knocking/toxicing/tricking seismitoads and then starting to pressure with spin, avoiding hazards in the process with the only counterpart of an unlikely critic.

Everything is not perfect using the big turtle though, this mon needs a big quantity of support in form of his partner in crime who is also experimenting a new renaissance, Florges. This may be comprehended as a restriction, but I understand it as a tool in order to achieve something that is very unlikely to happen in this tier, and it is having teams that have the longevity needed without relaying in fat. Though burn is one of the most spammed statuses in this tier it is surprising how glass cannon teams are in general, many times you will want to play your walls such as Seismitoad or Rhyperior offensively because your team doesn’t benefit from the incessant cheap. But with Blastoise you somehow can forget about this and be able to play a more appeased and slow paced game. The goodness of the combination of florges and blastoise are the following ones: Longevity, status absorbing, RELIANT hazard control, solid defensive backbone, and customization.

I claim the longevity this combination has but I have not provided any example yet. So I will try to give a few: Stealth Rocks, Blastoise is able to basically spin in every single viable stealth rocker in the tier and there is very little punish, Seismitoad might be one of the most annoying to deal with but if you are able to get rid or status Seismitoad Blastoise’s work eases a lot or rather accelerates. Thanks to the ability of playing without having the hazards in consideration your longevity is bolstered but if you combine this ability to play a game without hazard in your field with a pokemon able to pressure or maintain rocks against the defoggers, you are slowly but surely winning with each step. In regard of status, especially burns, the combination of rest and heal bell makes of this core sturdy and difficult to take advantage passively; Rest also provides a very good and reliant tool in order to achieve that long terms games we are looking for, but the real deal here is Florges' wish, being able to not only trade but also punish defensively and stalling more and more, a slow game you are favored.

Some examples of Teams and structures could be these 2: Fat reuni toise florges , Croak Toise ges balanced

Though these two teams have 2 different approach we can see some similarities.
Rockers that annoy typical defogers, in the form of nidoqueen and rhyperior respectively.
Pokemons that can get rid of/annoy seismitoad such as: Moltres' wow, Knock off croak, Toxic spikes of nidoqueen, and trick of metagross .
Pokemons that enjoy the SR less gaming such as Moltres or Taunt crobat.

In conclusion, I think the combination of Blastoise and Florges brings a fresh breeze to the metagame, there are some problems such as the difficulties of covering roserade reliably or the way you have to play around some heracross sets. But I think the potential is there and I will be a huge advocate of it.

Thank you for reading.

dingbat · Apr 6, 2024

Some mid-UUPL notes from me:

:crobat:

Did I mention how good Super Fang is? This is easily my favorite utility move on bat rn and it's good to the point that I've sacrificed U-turn on some sets. Also I've been seeing a lot more ppl running close to max speed on their bulky bats, and to that I give you a big

Mega Aero's status as a top dog in this meta will not be disputed any time soon, despite its notable drop in usage the past year or so. What I will talk about instead is some subtle changes to the moves being run since Conk got banned. Wing Attack/Aerial Ace was relatively optional due to Aero not being a reliable revenge killer against the Fighting-type monopoly that was Conk- at the same time, Crunch was a really fantastic option to help break through Conk's Psychic checks in Slowking and Reuniclus. But with the current top-tier fighters reliably RKO'd by flying moves, the opportunity cost of not running it is at an all-time high. Additionally, I've personally found it harder to run Pursuit over either a fourth coverage move or Hone Claws in large part due to one of its biggest targets in Crobat punishing the move with the now-common Rocky Helmet. That being said, you still can't go terribly wrong with the options it has as long as you have your intent with what you're running.

:celebi:

Celebi's been beat down to the point where it's being disrespected on the builder (myself included) and I now think it's become an under-the-radar threat in this meta. The sets that made it a top tier threat back in the day are still effective here; in particular, its ability to effectively run U-turn alongside NP+stabs is a really nice tech to have in this current meta. Mienshao in particular is no longer anywhere near as common as it was right after the Conk ban, and while it still has its issues in terms of its power level and team fit, as well as Crobat being as great as it is right now, it's still very capable of flipping matchups on their heads with some well timed NPs or Healing Wish whenever opponents fail to pressure it enough. While I don't think it will return to the A-ranks any time in the near future, its downfall has definitely been exaggerated at this point.

:sigilyph:

One mon that's been explored by Killintime and I during this UUPL is Sigilyph. It utilizes its combination of Magic Guard, above average speed, and passable bulk to spread broken ass burns via Flame Orb and Psycho Shift. Unfortunately it has gone 0-2 so far for two completely different reasons, but both battles showcased its ability to be super annoying with its burn spreading, as well as its unique defensive utility against fat mons and even a few offensive threats like Virizion or Celebi lacking uncommon super effective coverage. This mon will definitely be ranked in my next personal VR, probably at around C+.

:choice band:

I want to dive a little into choiced wallbreakers as well; while they will always present their downsides in battle in terms of enabling specific threats via free switch-ins, I think they are in a great spot in this current meta as they are some of the best progress forcers in this current landscape.

:krookodile:

Krookodile and :heracross:

Heracross are my two go-to banded mons as they're not only the two easiest ones to fit, but are also two of the hardest ones to shut down in any given matchup, in large part due to Knock Off being so damn strong. :entei:

Entei,

Metagross, and :infernape:

Infernape are more difficult to fit and don't carry the consistent offensive gravity of the former two, but are still nonetheless powerful options, while :mienshao:

Mienshao has also been spotted committing brutal murders in its few encounters. :tyrantrum:

Tyrantrum is almost extinct (again) these days, and :crawdaunt:

Crawdaunt and :mamoswine:

Mamoswine are usable, but are generally more effective wallbreakers when they aren't choice locked.

The Choice Specs pool is a bit more shallow, with :hydreigon:

Hydreigon being its biggest, most consistent mainstay. :gardevoir:

Gardevoir is arguably the second best specs user over :sylveon:

Sylveon; while the latter has a far better defensive profile and a stronger Hyper Voice than the former's Moonblast, the former has superior move options (coverage, HW, wisp to name a few) and speed, and in the context of wallbreakers, I personally prefer the stronger offensive profile, although I do have a few teams where Sylveon is the better fit. From there, the options fall off pretty hard; :roserade:

Roserade looks good on paper, but it relies quite a bit on guesswork when its best qualities to begin with don't rely on that nearly as much. :dragalge:

Dragalge and :shaymin:

Shaymin are super niche options, and :rotom-mow:

both Rotoms would rather not be running specs sets most of the time.

Finally, the level of creativity in display this UUPL has been about as high as it's ever been, with almost everyone in the pool exploring with mons that have rarely or never been used or techs to throw opponents off of their rhythm. While that doesn't necessarily mean that standard builds will become obsolete- I would in fact claim the opposite at this moment, this metagame is definitely in a less "solved" state than I would have claimed just months ago.

Lower Tiers ORAS UU Discussion, Trends, and Rambling

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