Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Mr. Hothead]

...What are you implying exactly? That Diggersby should be blacklisted?

No, what he is referring to is this:

Diggersby is the 660th pokemon in the Pokedex. Subtract 557 you get three.
He was obviously showing us that Diggersby is the key to Half Life 3!

Seriously tho i do agree with Luke to C but it feels kinda weird having a faster, more frail version of it being better... when Lukes main problem is fraility...
well w/e.

 

[henry]

my opinion actually means something now for some reason :O

B- Rank
Alomomola: stays
Azelf: stays
Conkeldurr: to C+. conk is just bad. cant function against stall at all and ton of new megas like gallade, altaria, metagross give it problems. It obviously deals with certain threatening pkmn but its really easy to play around. A great indication of a bad team in xy is if its weak to conkeldurr, and oras is no different.
Cresselia: to B
Doublade: no opinion
Garchomp (Mega): stays. still a good stallbreaker even if it doesnt see usage
Gothitelle: to B
Houndoom (Mega) to B. Great boon to stall with sableye, I even got suspect reqs with it and speed tier isnt bad either !_!
Klefki: To B+
Lucario: stays
Scolipede: stays. bp is obviously not needing it as much but quickpass is very underused (thank god) despite being viable. regardless its LO offensive set gives offensively oriented meta trouble
Sharpedo (Mega): to C+. idk why people are giving this credit. i was really excited for its mega but its insanely underwhelming. piss poor bulk and essentially has only one opporunity to be used effectively each game when it mevos, coupled with poor coverage and ability for offense to check it easily in keldeo and azu.
Staraptor: no opinion
Sylveon: stays
Togekiss: to B/B+ despite usage again toge is great at troubling stall with nasty plot and air slash, can annoy offense with twave etc.
Weavile: to B
Zapdos: stays

Ampharos (Mega): stays
Camerupt (Mega): to C. this thing is kind of trash keep moving it down. way too slow, and really isnt strong enough to justify using regardless
Cobalion: stays
Entei: to C
Gastrodon: stays. Still a great check against rain with reliable recovery, if only it learned stealth rock ;__;
Goodra: no opinion
Infernape: to C. speed tier isn't really helping it, checked by new megas like conk e_e
Magneton: To B-. outspeed gren is crucial, dunno if it should stay in B- if (and when) gren gets banned
Medicham (Mega): stays
Sableye: stays
Tangrowth: no opinion
Wobbuffet: no opinion

 

[Alfalfa]

my opinion actually means something now for some reason :O

B- Rank
Alomomola: stays
Azelf: stays
Conkeldurr: to C+. conk is just bad. cant function against stall at all and ton of new megas like gallade, altaria, metagross give it problems. It obviously deals with certain threatening pkmn but its really easy to play around. A great indication of a bad team in xy is if its weak to conkeldurr, and oras is no different.
Cresselia: to B
Doublade: no opinion
Garchomp (Mega): stays. still a good stallbreaker even if it doesnt see usage
Gothitelle: to B
Houndoom (Mega) to B. Great boon to stall with sableye, I even got suspect reqs with it and speed tier isnt bad either !_!
Klefki: To B+
Lucario: stays
Scolipede: stays. bp is obviously not needing it as much but quickpass is very underused (thank god) despite being viable. regardless its LO offensive set gives offensively oriented meta trouble
Sharpedo (Mega): to C+. idk why people are giving this credit. i was really excited for its mega but its insanely underwhelming. piss poor bulk and essentially has only one opporunity to be used effectively each game when it mevos, coupled with poor coverage and ability for offense to check it easily in keldeo and azu.
Staraptor: no opinion
Sylveon: stays
Togekiss: to B/B+ despite usage again toge is great at troubling stall with nasty plot and air slash, can annoy offense with twave etc.
Weavile: to B
Zapdos: stays

Ampharos (Mega): stays
Camerupt (Mega): to C. this thing is kind of trash keep moving it down. way too slow, and really isnt strong enough to justify using regardless
Cobalion: stays
Entei: to C
Gastrodon: stays. Still a great check against rain with reliable recovery, if only it learned stealth rock ;__;
Goodra: no opinion
Infernape: to C. speed tier isn't really helping it, checked by new megas like conk e_e
Magneton: To B-. outspeed gren is crucial, dunno if it should stay in B- if (and when) gren gets banned
Medicham (Mega): stays
Sableye: stays
Tangrowth: no opinion
Wobbuffet: no opinion

You forgot to mention Toxicroak on that list, along with Empoleon.

 

[PachChomp]

Infernape should stay at C+.
Although the new Speed Ties have hurt it, it still has priority in both Special and the physical category, being Mach Punch/Vaceum Wave.
I've tried Infernape myself and it's done a decent amount of work.
+2 252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 888-1046 (126.1 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 484-576 (137.5 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 336-396 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 510-602 (178.9 - 211.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO, assuming Infernape is scarfed in this situation.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, assuming Landorus-T isn't scarfed.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 204-240 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, assuming Infernape is scarfed.
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 185-218 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and then Infernape beats with Close Combat.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 214-253 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, which is a hefty amount to a scary threat.
252+ Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 300-352 (110.7 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, Sucker punch pls.
252+ Atk Infernape U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latios: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO, Does a hefty amount when needed.

By these calcs, Infernape can do damage with priority or not.
With Scarf/Spec/Band set or just straight up life orb, you can do some real damage with Infernape using priority or just using raw speed.
It's immune from annoying Will o Wisp from crippling it and with good partners like Thundurus to absorb the in-coming Thunder Wave, Infernape can make a strong team.

 

[Alfalfa]

Infernape should stay at C+.
Although the new Speed Ties have hurt it, it still has priority in both Special and the physical category, being Mach Punch/Vaceum Wave.
I've tried Infernape myself and it's done a decent amount of work.
+2 252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 888-1046 (126.1 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 484-576 (137.5 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 336-396 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 510-602 (178.9 - 211.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO, assuming Infernape is scarfed in this situation.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, assuming Landorus-T isn't scarfed.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 204-240 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, assuming Infernape is scarfed.
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 185-218 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and then Infernape beats with Close Combat.
252+ SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 214-253 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, which is a hefty amount to a scary threat.
252+ Atk Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 300-352 (110.7 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, Sucker punch pls.
252+ Atk Infernape U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latios: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO, Does a hefty amount when needed.

By these calcs, Infernape can do damage with priority or not.
With Scarf/Spec/Band set or just straight up life orb, you can do some real damage with Infernape using priority or just using raw speed.
It's immune from annoying Will o Wisp from crippling it and with good partners like Thundurus to absorb the in-coming Thunder Wave, Infernape can make a strong team.

Those calcs are cherry picked. Many of these Pokemon are not going to stay in on Infernape anyways, except for Latios, who is supposed to check Infernape. Regardless, Infernape has to deal with the additional speed creep in ORAS downplaying its once great speed tier, and the introduction of Mega Slowbro, whose Iron Defense + Calm Mind sets completely shut down Infernape's best set, a mixed set (choiced Infernape is complete ass in OU). With this, Infernape is worse in ORAS than it was in XY, and dropping down to C Rank is completely warranted.

 

[firehusky]

Those calcs are cherry picked. Many of these Pokemon are not going to stay in on Infernape anyways, except for Latios, who is supposed to check Infernape. Regardless, Infernape has to deal with the additional speed creep in ORAS downplaying its once great speed tier, and the introduction of Mega Slowbro, whose Iron Defense + Calm Mind sets completely shut down Infernape's best set, a mixed set (choiced Infernape is complete ass in OU). With this, Infernape is worse in ORAS than it was in XY, and dropping down to C Rank is completely warranted.

Actually MixApe can still sometimes beat mega slowbro, due to grass knot. However, I due agree that it should drop to C, because it's only niche now is a suicide rocks lead, and it's speed tier is also a lot worse.

44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, if mega bro switches in on anything except for t punch or grass knot, it's safe since scald OHKOs

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 320-378 (109.2 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Alfalfa]

Actually MixApe can still sometimes beat mega slowbro, due to grass knot. However, I due agree that it should drop to C, because it's only niche now is a suicide rocks lead, and it's speed tier is also a lot worse.

44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I was referring to Iron Defense + Calm Mind sets, which tend to run Special Defensive investment to tank special hits so it has an easier time setting up.

EDIT:
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Mega Slowbro: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[firehusky]

I was referring to Iron Defense + Calm Mind sets, which tend to run Special Defensive investment to tank special hits so it has an easier time setting up.

Slowbro still has some trouble countering it, because grass knot has a good chance to 2HKO after SR.
44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Karxrida]

Actually MixApe can still sometimes beat mega slowbro, due to grass knot. However, I due agree that it should drop to C, because it's only niche now is a suicide rocks lead, and it's speed tier is also a lot worse.

44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, if mega bro switches in on anything except for t punch or grass knot, it's safe since scald OHKOs

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 320-378 (109.2 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not even a good suicide lead; we have Magic Bouncers that don't suck now to beat it, it still can't beat Lati@s, and it receives massive competition from Azelf (who shouldn't even be ranked anymore imo because MAGIC BOUNCERS THAT DON'T SUCK).

 

[QuickBH]

Those calcs are cherry picked. Many of these Pokemon are not going to stay in on Infernape anyways, except for Latios, who is supposed to check Infernape. Regardless, Infernape has to deal with the additional speed creep in ORAS downplaying its once great speed tier, and the introduction of Mega Slowbro, whose Iron Defense + Calm Mind sets completely shut down Infernape's best set, a mixed set (choiced Infernape is complete ass in OU). With this, Infernape is worse in ORAS than it was in XY, and dropping down to C Rank is completely warranted.

I think Infernape should be C because all of its previously viable sets got nerfed pretty hard by the new meta as well as Greninja still being taken into account, but I seriously think Choice Scarf isn't a bad Infernape set. It has a lot of merits that Choice Scarf Keldeo utilizes in the sense that it can revenge kill/check a plethora of fast Pokemon that are pretty common, including Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Scarf Magnezone, Scarf Landorus-T, and can even check threats like Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor better than Keldeo can thanks to Fire Blast / CC / HP Ice, grant it ik I need to explore on some EVs which will likely end up with me sacrificing some speed for me to do all that guaranteed but it's definitely nice.

The one thing it has over Scarf Keldeo though is this, U-Turn. Ik it sounds kind of dumb because you're sacrificing Scald and immediate power for checking a few Pokemon better and for U-Turn, but it really is amazing on a scarfer, as it allows you to gain momentum when you're in a good position into many Pokemon that need a safe turn for Mega-evolving, including Sceptile, Manectric, Aerodactyl, and to an extent even Altaria. Mega-evolutions like the aforementioned are pretty much what makes the team work a lot of the times and having something like this while being able to take out what was mentioned in the previous paragraph is incredibly useful for Bulky Offensive teams, and possibly Hyper Offense.

I know Keldeo is used on most teams pre-Greninja suspect ladder thanks to the fact that a Pokemon that could actually switch-in on Greninja once, but once it goes I really think more decisions in teambuilding will be made on whether you would put Scarf Infernape or Scarf Keldeo on a team. Whenever I decide to take this game more seriously again/if I do (most likely when I think the meta is stable again) I may bump Infernape if/once Greninja goes after a few weeks of testing.

 

[AM]

Gonna chime in and say that I disagree with the notion that Azelf has lost any real sort of viability when its best set these days is Skill Swap, Taunt, SR, Explosion as a suicide lead for Hyper Offense with Skill Swap making these Magic Bouncers a liability to throw out on the first turn right away.

 

[firehusky]

It's not even a good suicide lead; we have Magic Bouncers that don't suck now to beat it, it still can't beat Lati@s, and it receives massive competition from Azelf (who shouldn't even be ranked anymore imo because MAGIC BOUNCERS THAT DON'T SUCK).

Yeah lol I forgot about all the magic bouncers, you're right that it's not even that good of a suicide lead anymore.

 

[Redolent]

I kind of wanted to keep it to myself but MixApe with Nasty Plot, Fire Blast, CC and Grass Knot is actually one of the best wallbreakers there is. Pair it with a Pursuit trapper for Latias and Cresselia and you've covered nearly everything.

 

[Karxrida]

Gonna chime in and say that I disagree with the notion that Azelf has lost any real sort of viability when its best set these days is Skill Swap, Taunt, SR, Explosion as a suicide lead for Hyper Offense with Skill Swap making these Magic Bouncers a liability to throw out on the first turn right away.

Azelf can't threaten either of them, so they can just choose to not Mega the first turn once Skill Swap becomes a thing and now you're in a prediction circle-jerk just to get Rocks up.

0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

Non-Mega calcs if it matters; pretty sure both are guaranteed 2HKOs with Mega stats factored in.

As a bonus, Sableye is immune to Explosion and Diancie resists it.

 

[AM]

Azelf can't threaten either of them, so they can just choose to not Mega the first turn once Skill Swap becomes a thing and now you're in a prediction circle-jerk just to get Rocks up.

0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azelf: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

As a bonus, Sableye is immune to Explosion and Diancie resists it.

It's.........a suicide lead (._.). Who cares if it gets KO'd by either of them? It's not even suppose to threaten them or anything really in the first place because its offensive presence is literally either Fire Blast or Explosion in most cases. The goal of Azelf is to get up rocks and it will do this 100% of the time unless you're playing like ass and Rocks + Consistent pressure is all Hyper Offense needs to maximize its potential and as such is a key component in Azelfs viability. It's also hard for me to say confidently that Azelf lost viability when Ox The Fox peaked #1 multiple times with a Hyper Offensive build using this exact set. If peaking #1 multiple times with something like Azelf on your team isn't an indicator to viability Idk what is.

 

[Karxrida]

It's.........a suicide lead (._.). Who cares if it gets KO'd by either of them? It's not even suppose to threaten them or anything really in the first place because it's offensive presence is literally either Fire Blast or Explosion in most cases. The goal of Azelf is to get up rocks and it will do this 100% of the time unless you're playing like ass and Rocks + Consistent pressure is all Hyper Offense needs to maximize its potential and as such is a key component in Azelfs viability. It's also hard for me to say confidently that Azelf lost viability when Ox The Fox peaked #1 multiple times with a Hyper Offensive build using this exact set. If peaking #1 multiple times with something like Azelf on your team isn't an indicator to viability Idk what is.

If you Skill Swap first turn and they don't Mega, you don't get Rocks up. That was my point.

 

[AM]

If you Skill Swap first turn and they don't Mega, you don't get Rocks up. That was my point.

That's cool and all but that doesn't exactly emphasize it's got worse by a bunch of mind games and theorymon which could be made out of thin air for just about anything to make it sound better or worse on paper than it is in practice. In practice Azelf fulfills the role it needs to accomplish under the support role and is perfectly fine in B- due to the support it provides these Hyper Offensive Builds, whether that be through its suicide or Dual Screens set.

 

[TaBuu]

I don't think Azelf needs to drop to a ranking lower than B- since its high base Speed, access to Stealth Rock, Screens, Taunt and a few select coverage moves make Azelf efficient as a suicide lead. C ranking demands that the suspect pokemon is too heavily burdened by its flaws to perform effectively without extensive support. Obviously this is not the case for Azelf, since it needs little to no support to setup Rocks. In many situations, HO teams benefit greatly from Azelf's lead support and are not required to invest support for Azelf to do its job consistently.

 

[Celticpride]

Azelf does have use as a dual screener in addition to a Rocks lead. Screens + Taunt + Explosion is perfectly viable. Also, I think that Rocks Lead Azelf uses U-Turn a decent amount of the time, which you can use to gain momentum if those Magic Bouncers try to get edgy with their prediction. It's not like Magic Bounce is everywhere either, only 2 new megas got it, and the oppertunity cost for using one of those two is large. Azelf is still able to pressure the large number of teams that don't use Diancie or Sableye. I'd think it would be worse if something a lot more splashable with Magic Bounce got introduced.

 

[Clone]

It's not even a good suicide lead; we have Magic Bouncers that don't suck now to beat it, it still can't beat Lati@s, and it receives massive competition from Azelf (who shouldn't even be ranked anymore imo because MAGIC BOUNCERS THAT DON'T SUCK).

by this logic garchomp should be D rank since its best niche is its suicude lead role and magic bounce exists.

Azelf should stay where it is. Its a great lead for HO that gets up Stealth Rock, can prevent opposing Stealth Rock with Taunt, and gain momentum with Explosion. Additionally, it has good offensive presence that allows it to pick a move to beat certain leads, such as Psyshock for Keldeo (which leads all the fucking time), Fire Blast for Ferrothorn, etc. On top of this, Magic Bouncers arent on every team due to opportunity cost, so Azelf isnt as affected by them as you say he is

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Cresselia: B- ---> B
Doublade: B- ---> C+
Mega Houndoom: B- ---> B
Gothitelle: B- ---> B
Klefki: B- ---> B+
Mega Sharpedo: B- ---> B
Staraptor: B- ---> C+
Togekiss: B- ---> B
Weavile: B- ---> B
Entei: C+ ---> C
Goodra: C+ ---> C
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Magneton: C+ ---> B-
Sableye: C+ ---> C
Toxicroak: C+ ---> B-
Tangrowth: C+ ---> B-

Now, we are going to discuss about the the rest of C and D ranks, and everything else from the whole list that people want to, so we can deal with questionable rankings such as Thundurus to S and Mega Beedril to B. Hopefully, we can make one last update before the the suspect test of Greninja finishes. Also, merry Christmas and happy holidays guys!

 

[Celticpride]

^Sorry if that gif is a little too much
Mega Absol
C- ---> C

I've been waiting a while to make this nomination. Mega Absol got much better in the transition to ORAS. With Knock Off and Play Rough being legal together, it finally got awesome neutral coverage. It doesn't have to deal with the negative effects associated with Superpower, or even think about dropping Knock Off. It is also one of the few things that can claim to set-up on Mega Sableye, and +2 STAB Knock Offs really hurts the rest of stall teams. It's not without it's faults, namely Fairies walling it and it's general frality. However, it sits in a speed tier just above some of the new Megas, and has STAB Sucker Punch to deal with the few Megas that are faster than it (it OHKOs basically everything faster at +2). Overall a rise to C (or maybe C+, especially without Gren) is warranted.​

 

[Albacore]

put Tenatcruel in B rank asap, it's a staple of Stall and an excellent partner to Sableye for its ability to beat Clefable (one of the only rock setters Sab loses to) while not being spinblocked by any relevant OU ghost, not even Sableye which it beats via Acid Spray. It's also not exclusive to Stall and can fit quite well as a spinner on balanced teams, its ability to handle Gengar being very valuable for these kinds of teams. And yeah it counters Greninja too but that's far from the only thing it does (that's certainly not the reason Stall uses it for), even with Gren gone I still think it deserves B rank, everything kinda just fell in place for it when ORAS arrived.

I'd also like to see Bronzong move up to C+. I firmly believe it to be better than or at least on par with Doublade, it's probably the best Diancie counter in the tier, and also handles DD MAltaria and MGardevoir very well. Very good answer to Ground types like Sand Rush Excadrill and Mamoswine too. I really think C is too low, it's a very unique defensive Pokemon despite its passiveness and lack of recovery.
(edit : somehow forgot MMetagross which is like the most important thing it checks lol, yeah that's definitely a very good thing to be able to deal with atm and a good argument for it to move up)

Unrank Regular Metagross, Mega-Steelix and Mega-Audino. The former is completely outclassed by its mega (I know it doesn't take up a mega slot, but honestly if you manage to get into a position where Assault Vest Metagross is the best thing you could add to your team, it's probably better just get rid of your mega to open up a slot for MMetagross especially given how ridiculously good it is. Simply put, regular Venusaur isn't ranked and neither should this). The latter two are just completely outclassed save for a few qualities which are just not worth your mega slot. Steelix is just a worse Aggron, and although Audino is bulkier than Clefable it's worse in every single other aspect : worse typing, far worse movepool, and far worse ability, I can't think of a single situation where Audino would be preferable to Clefable, and when I have used it I usually just keep it in base forme to keep Regenerator active at which point I start wondering why I'm not using Almomomola instead. I'm not sure Pidgeot is really viable either but it does have a couple of qualities over Torn-T namely Roost and a powerful STAB that doesn't miss all the goddamn time so I'll lay off on this one.

I would rank Gourgeist-XL, probably in C- alongside Gourgeist-S. It was previously outclassed by its faster, less bulky counterpart, but now it has a pretty good niche in handling MMetagross (which Gourgeist-S loses to) and Keldeo in one slot, which is pretty big atm considering how solid and common that core is.

I've never seen/used these before, but someone needs to clarify why the hell Flygon and Jellicent are ranked because I have no idea.

Support Beedrill rise and Thundurus drop. Beedrill puts a lot of pressure on many teams, it's a nightmare for offense to keep up with especially since it can easily take advantage of scarfers via Protect, and its ability to pivot actually gives it some use vs bulkier teams.
Thundurus just has a much harder time fitting on teams than any other S rank due to the lack of defensive utility it provides, in theory it has no full counters but in practice it's not actually too hard to play around, and if it predicts incorrectly it can quite easily find itself in a bad position, unlike, say, Greninja and Landorus-T who require little prediction to use efficiently. It can potentially be very good against either offense and stall depending on what it runs but from what I can tell always seems to struggle vs balanced teams no matter what given how many things can take a hit and KO back, and balance is getting more and more popular atm which is bad news for it. It also suffers some competition from Klefki as a catch-all sweep-stopper, Klefki doesn't have Thundurus's offensive presence but provides much more defensively and utility-wise, so Thundurus isn't the only viable option if you want to cover many fast threats at once on HO. All in all it's just not an easily splashable Pokemon unlike every other S rank (including MMetagross which fits very well on a lot of teams) and should probably drop on that basis.

agree with Absol rise, will post more thoughts later.

 

[Jaroda]

^Sorry if that gif is a little too much
Mega Absol
C- ---> C

I've been waiting a while to make this nomination. Mega Absol got much better in the transition to ORAS. With Knock Off and Play Rough being legal together, it finally got awesome neutral coverage. It doesn't have to deal with the negative effects associated with Superpower, or even think about dropping Knock Off. It is also one of the few things that can claim to set-up on Mega Sableye, and +2 STAB Knock Offs really hurts the rest of stall teams. It's not without it's faults, namely Fairies walling it and it's general frality. However, it sits in a speed tier just above some of the new Megas, and has STAB Sucker Punch to deal with the few Megas that are faster than it (it OHKOs basically everything faster at +2). Overall a rise to C (or maybe C+, especially without Gren) is warranted.​

Theoretically this reasoning seems sound. Do you have any replays per chance? When exactly does it get to Megavolve safely?

 

[Kurona]

Alright, I've waited a long time for this

Mega Steelix D ==> Unranked
I'm sorry, Mega Steelix. Your design is great, I love you, but... you're just so outclassed in this meta. Mega Steelix can do literally nothing that Mega Aggron can't do better on the defensive side. It's movepool is bare bones, it's ground typing does nothing but hold it's steel typing back, the increased attack is very low for a Mega, as a Sand Force user it's outclassed by Mega Garchomp, as a trick room mega I'd rather use Mega Camerupt...
To me it's very clear that Mega Steelix was only on the viability rankings to begin with just because it was a new Mega and they all warranted at least some discussion. It's been over a month since then and no-one has come up with anything Mega Steelix can do that isn't outclassed or absolute trash. I go into more detail on the don't use that use this thread but it's half 3 and I'm too lazy to type out all the detail; but I'm not sure there's anyone who would disagree Mega Steelix unfortunately has no place in this meta



also I'd support a mega audino unranking but I don't think it's quite at the level of being outclassed as megalix is; granted it is outclassed but it does hold the niche of much greater initial bulk and fucking over mega sableye that clefable doesn't have so I dunno yet

edit: oh god fucking dammit albacore got to propose unranking megalix before me