OU ORAS OU Discussion Thread

[Vileman]

approved by xray
gm everyone,

I'd like to make this thread to have some discussion about ORAS OU. The metagame has been following certain trends over the last years, be it mega alt stall,webs, screens, with cofag teams being popular nowadays.

It's been cool to see how different people approach the metagame and try out new builds and strategies. Still, personally I believe there's room to discuss over potential suspects in the tier over mons that constrain building too much.


The only one i have currently in mind is the one obvious answer:
Volcarona

Volcarona is a Pain in the Ass

Volc has been a controversial mon ever since the beggining of gen 6. The ability it has to win some games outright from preview is insane. Nowadays it feels like playing rock paper scissors when preparing for it, as if youre not running a super HO team that can pressure it all the time, your defensive answers rely on Volcarona not having the right coverage. Its usually running flamethrower/fire blast alongside a combination of bug buzz, hp ice, hp ground and giga drain. Roost is also seen sometimes, but i'd argue its less popular now.
Yes its 4x weak to stealth rocks, but you are either running the most popular mon in the tier, excadrill, or/and are running some HO which a lead that focuses on keeping rocks Off (exhibit A, B, C, etc im sure theres more)
The answers/playstyles that can reliable keep volcarona in check are very limited, building feels very constrained nowadays due to how optimized these HO teams have become, in my opinion.

Anyways, thats just my opinion. I'd like to hear more thoughts over ORAS OU and the current trends, and if any of you feel strongly about any potential suspect for the tier.

Discuss!!!

 

[Ithi]

Hi, I'll be the first to chime in my opinion on the whole controversy that is Volcarona. Like Vileman said, Volcarona can be incredibly constricting to the point you either have the silver bullet or you don't. Even then the moth can randomly have the right coverage to win the 1v1, and there's no real way of being able to determine what sort of coverage its carrying even from team preview as it can just decide what it wants to be walled by.


On paper it can be the single cheesiest and most infuriating pokemon to keep in account for to the point like Vileman said again, where you need very specific structures to either never let it set up or have an actual answer to the thing. To further add upon the RPS philosophy, we've reached a point where the 'main' rps system is screens, anti-screens and the anti-anti screens have been running around, most notably offense as anti-screens typically will want to commit die vs such archetypes.

To tl;dr my whole rant of what would probably be an essay, Volcarona is a pokemon you must unironically ask yourself in the builder if you feel like beating or not. Typical 'fire checks' will not work vs it such as lati@s as volcarona can and will set up in front of them, all of its checks must be able to answer it at +1; diancie, ttar, excadrill, garchomp, heatran, talonflame, volcanion etc. All of these pokemon have very specific structures they must go on, and while sand has proved itself to be the most consistent archetype, it is by no means something omni-splashable, the fact that volcarona's checks are so limited and require specific structures to properly work can make prepwork especially infuriating in a tournament setting where you can just lose on the spot despite proper prep because of how shaky it is vs the moth.

Which leads me to how it fares in practice; in practice it isn't so bad so long as you have an actual offensive presence, but this is implying you have pitch-perfect play which is the single worst thing to rely on when its the only other option you have to being able to beat something broken outside of a very select few checks.

All in all, I'm 100% behind a volcarona suspect test and would absolutely not miss this broken threat if it does end up going!!

Now to wait to get ratio'd for the third time today on my post

 

[RufflesPro]

Personally think the tier is in a really good spot. Building has been very fun. So I wouldn't really change anything. There's still a ton of untapped potential.

Volcarona is annoying as hell in the builder, but in practice, using it and facing it is extremely manageable. Dedicated absolute defensive counters for moth are few, but often you don't need them. While the tier lacks good scarfers that can revenge Volcarona, it is filled with good priority users that can pick it off when weakened, which is not difficult to do. Volcarona behind screens becomes a bit more problematic, but Manaphy is much more problematic behind screens imo. Often times teams that have enough offensive pressure can get away with having 0 volcarona answers, because volcarona can simply never set up. Excadrill is both a rock setter and a spinner, yet it's difficult to spin on opposing drills. So drill hurts moth just as much as it helps it.

Volcarona becomes a problem in the builder when you want to use more passive mons such as Ferrothorn or Cofagrigus. I think it's completely fair to have a cost to running those mons: a dedicated defensive Volcarona answer. This is something that Volcarona brings to the tier that I think is positive. There's a relatively healthy balance of HO-fat-balance-stall right now, and Volcarona contributes to that. Sure, we could be seeing less HO but it's not omnipresent.

 

[Fated Keys]

While Volcarona is one of the strongest offensive mons within the ORAS OU tier, as Ruffles previously mentioned, I believe there are methods that can be taken into consideration within team builds that handle Volcarona's presence. The important question asked however, is if you are building to counter volcarona, are you compensating elsewhere within the team core, that hinders your teams from handling other common team variations that lack volcarona's presence? I know many assume the idea that if we build to counter volcarona, we open the team up to either electric weaknesses, weavile problems, perhaps tspikes or weaknesses to mega zam/manaphy.

While no team can perfectly counter everything in the metagame, I do believe that the necessity of countering volcarona can still be implemented while also handling the other common team threats mentioned previously. Even cofagrigus + fakeout as we've seen rise in popularity, presents great difficulty for volcarona team compositions, as many struggle to remove hazards off of the field. While it's not always guaranteed, Adamant Lopunny also provides great offensive pressure to remove volcarona with fakeout + quick attack. It wasn't that long ago since the risen popularity of cofagrigus came into our metagame, and I'm sure that alternative priority methods ranging from banded crawdaunt/azu, to spdef volcanion/talonflame/dragonite/altaria/spdef garchomp are effective measures of handling volcarona within the tier. This doesn't mean volcarona won't use hidden power ice, but you can consider that into the builder, decide whether yache berry might be a valued resource for the team, or pairing garchomp/alt/dragonite with heatran to wall volcarona. Prankster twave, modified ev spreads on things like keldeo, trick users, sand team variations, and trick scarf mons also apply pressure as well, and some teams may need a combination of these variables if they have a tendency of weakening their volcarona counter. We don't ban weavile if someone sack's their +2 mega scizor with superpower to a fast spread heatran; assuming weavile sweeps the rest of the team.

My post isn't made to force someone to change their perspective, rather I think we should all be willing to make the wise decision of looking into a variety of methods that we can use to counter volcarona, and test them appropriately within the tier to determine if these options are viable methods, or if our team builds are hindered further by it. Cofag + fakeout became popular in early of 2022, and our oras metagame has been around since the end of 2014. which means that if cofagrigus is an indirect viable counter to volcarona, I'm sure that there are other methods that are left unexplored by a large portion of our community. Keep in mind, players initially wanted webs banned for a period of time until the screens metagame came about. Then players wanted screens to be banned. Let's assess the situation as a community and determine the best course of action by looking at all possible angles. Overall, I've greatly enjoyed the ORAS OU metagame these last few years since the expanse of more viable options have been explored within the tier. I'm looking forward to continuing this, which is why I think the metagame is currently at its best.

 

[Bored Pikachu]

I still have no solid opinion about whether Volcarona should be banned or not, but I will list ways to check Volcarona here.

Ways to check Volcarona
1) priority
The main priority abuser is none other than fake out mega lopunny, and you could use quick attack on top of that. Other notable pokemon that have priority are Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Dragonite, and Mega Pinsir.

2) Offensive Pokemon that beat Volcarona
Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, Mega Aerodactyl and Dragonite usually can take 1 hit and be able to ohko volcarona back.

3) Sand rush Excadrill
Sand is one of the best archetypes in oras ou and Well Excadrill is the best sand abuser. Excadrill is able to outspeed Volcarona after quiver dance with ease under sand.

4) Tank garchomp
Garchomp is one of the best rock setters for an offense team or bulky offense team. Garchomp's natural bulk and resist volcarona stab make it able to check volcarona. Some garchomp run spdef ev to check Volcarona better, such as this set.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 12 Atk / 100 Def / 148 SpD / 8 Spe
Jolly Nature
Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Flamethrower
This set is evd to tank a Moonblast from Mega diancie.

5) Chansey
Chansey is probably the best Volcarona check in the whole tier. It is able to deal with every volcarona with ease.

6) Scarfer that outspeed base 100 speed.
Pokémon such as Terrakion and Garchomp are able to outspeed Volcarona after quiver dance and ohko it back with rock slide/stone edge.

7) Heatran
Heatran is able to check Volcarona's lacking hidden power ground.

8) Bulky Volcanion
One of the reasons this Pokémon is on the rise basically because it is able to check Volcarona with a haze or roar.

9) Unaware clefable
Unaware clefable is a niche pick and very hard to fit on the team beside the stall, which already has chansey, but I have seen unaware clefable outside of the stall a few times.

10) Hippowdon
Hippowdon could use Stone Edge to check Volcarona. This Pokemon is useful on the sand team or spikestack.

Restrictive in the builder
I think Volcarona is the most restrictive Pokémon in the builder, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who think that either. Volcarona has sets such as Subswarm, Hidden Power Ground, Hidden Power Ice, and rare Hidden Power Rock. It also can run a variety of items, such as sitrus berry, Lum Berry and life orb. It's hard to consider all of this set in Builder. Volcarona still needs the right set to work and is hard to fit on a team, but it is still a pain in a builder.

Tldr: I think volcarona is pain in a builder, but it still has various ways to deal with it.

 

[Sylvi]

I think Volcarona established theirself as one of the key threads in the metagame. I think I don't need to explain why Volcarona's Kit has been fundamanetly strong since it is release in black and white. There are many sets you can play in ORAS, while all of them rely on the same Move, **QUIVER DANCE**. They are different item choices, like Life Orb, Sitrus for the rocks, Lum for Twaves, Lefti for the Subs and even some Anti-Berries. In my own personal experience I think the most threatening Sets are:

Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def [Ice] /
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD [Ground]
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Ground] / Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 96 HP / 64 Def / 164 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Substitute

I think both Set are serving different roles on a Team, while the first one is acting like a breaker and punching holes thru Teams the 2nd one is like a slow killer which waits to burst thru Teams, especially with the Support of Screens.
I used the first Set in my SPL Game against Santu, as I believed it is a great Call to break thru the Team with Support of Tspikes and Rocks on my HO Team. Giga Drain Life Orb is a deadly combo since you can heal up and beat behind screens semi-common "answers" to volcarona like volcanion or keldeo (since some ppl started to ev keldeo to live giga from non boosting from timid @ +1). Since the first Set is vulnerable to prios I like to think abt it as my Charizardx, trading 1/2 Pokemon and getting switch advantage. Depending on your Team and your call you can switch up the Hidden Power to beat "answers" like TankChomp who think they can catch you with a Rock Move on the QD or OHKO a Gliscor from full if you don't wanna run FBlast.

The Second Set is your real evil WinCon, that Set is always threatening and even answers like Hetran with some cheap can loose the one v one since plume can't break on +1 anymore and you get the dmg especially with Swarm. The trade of is the punching power for more survivability and safety of doding toxic's with Sub yare yare

Since we established some Sets, I wanna talk abt one Problem w/ Volc. I already mentioned some semi-"Answers" already since some Teams can't allow to have a perfect volc answer, and even then what is the perfect volc answer? If Volc wants to beat exclusive Counter (even Talonflame...) it can. So you gotta pray your balance Team can check the commons Setsor you auto loose. The peak of this Example is that every KyuremTeam has to run Chansey or Aqua Jet or you just get bodied and like I said the imo underappreciated Giga Sets eats it for breakfast. Ppl who don't wanna run Chansey on every Team gotta start running Haze Volcanion or never play chomp/lando without a rock move ever. Since Rock has really bnad overlapping benefits besides zardy most notable and maybe Talonflame (sorry Bird your Primetime is long ago). This becomes a weird fishing contest if your player is known for bringing many Volc's you can easily fit Chansey or an Aqua Jet User (save your eyes if you gonna run into Pasho Berry) but then you forced yourself into a specifc Mon just for one Matchup and I think this is not fun at all.

My Counter Plays in SPL relied on either the Opponent not bringing Volc (like LITERALLY) or if that happen just don't get burn (s/o MichaelderBeste2 yelling @ me "Skill Issue" when I asked him what my Team does against Volc). Like Lopunny Teams can pressure it wish their Normal type Stab Return/Frustration on +0 and threatening it with Double Prio but one burn and lights over and if it is lefti behind sub goodbye prios worth. Other Answers I brought was against False the Crawdaunt against the predicted Diancie HO Squat which ended up working good. But on other Team I had to deviate to Chansey or Encore Clefable since Twave isn't reliable enough and then you gotta ask, is encore worth the slot for volc and some other Matchups where it handy but mainly for volc yare yare.

TL;dr
In my experience without a doubt Volcarona is a beast and a manace in current ORAS with Screens and not to mention Healing Wish Support. Teams in tournament have to play quirky outs, or suboptimal outs which can be encountered or just hope "Opponent won't Volc me"
On Ladder you gotta have an answer since you don't wanna X every Time there is a Volc and this makes Team Building frustrated.

Is it broken? No
Is it Pain? Yes

If you made it this far on my mini essay, thank you for your patience, much appreciated

 

[pj]

In my opinion, Volcarona's dominance in the ORAS OU metagame severely limits team building options. Its formidable strength, adaptability, and screen support make it a tough for opponent to prepare for and counter, ultimately reducing the variety of viable Pokemon compositions. As a result, many teams are left feeling compelled to include specific Pokemon and moves solely to handle Volcarona, leaving little room for other effective strategies. This narrow approach has resulted in a less diverse metagame, which can ultimately detract from the overall enjoyment of competitive play. Therefore, I support a ban on Volcarona to encourage more varied team compositions and promote a healthier metagame.

 

[erz]

Posting a bit of discussion that includes part of my opinion from the ORAS Invitational Server
(Also this thread should be named Volcarona Discussion, it's the one and only reason this thread exists after all)

It'd be interesting to hear more opinions from all sorts of people how they generally feel about ORAS Volc. Generally i'm neither pro- nor anti-Ban but i'm quite certain about Volcarona being on the edge of what should be allowed and it definitly is the most problematic mon in the tier. In all the years of playing ORAS there've been multiple deep looks into certain matchup-heavy styles and during the last 2+ years Volc just has been identified as a root of the problem that is too many games decided by matchup.

If the majority of players were to support a deep look into Volcarona's influence on the tier then i'd hope it's an option for our Council to take steps towards a real Old-Gen-Suspect similar to the DPP Latias one.

 

[ABR]

Viewing volc as broken is valid but I really don't view it as That big a deal (hard to fit / support and not that hard to check)

 

[fade]

Unban Bright Powder

 

[Ithi]

Hi, its me again deciding to post again to respond to a few arguments I've seen on the thread and to continue bringing life here since I'm so adamant on my viewpoint.

I want to talk about the moth's checks in particular and what they'll typically demand from the player, probably the most notable one being talonflame; almost instantly demands rocks to be kept off w/ excadrill in a ho match-up, which is already demanding the opp doesn't have suicide lead lando-t as otherwise you will probably want to cry vs such, or the fact excadrill may never find a chance to spin, although that tends to be in more extreme cases. The same can be argued for volcanion as it will otherwise be too unhealthy to 1v1 the moth in a practical scenario

Then what about something not so rocks weak? Heatran, Tank-chomp all check the moth naturally and volcarona needs to go out of its way to run specific coverage, and this is correct, but there's no way of actually knowing what it can run, heatran will be dead vs 2/3rds of the team barring serp and moth if not carrying hp ground, tank-chomp is often the linchpin and defensive backbone of teams, and its not necessarily a tall ask to wear it down over the course of a game due to a lack of leftovers, and needing to properly take care of excadrill 1v1. On top of all this, you arguably need spdef investment to deal with moth keeping in mind your chomp can and will have taken prior chip damage doing what it does.

Well, what about good ol' fashioned rkillers? This implies a few things; you have successfully worn out screens which means you're good at the game, and you're running aqua-jet, while both users in azu and daunt are more than fine in their own rights at this job, what's stopping the volcarona from having grabbed a sub prior? Now this is all very specific as for what the gamestate is like but more often than not you're just letting another pokemon come in to sweep you, which just makes volcarona all the more frustrating, not to mention neither azu or daunt are universally slappable.

The fundamental issue with volcarona is not how it plays in a game to game basis, but what it fundamentally forces upon the player in the builder which proceeds to affect ingame decisions on how to deal with the threats at hand. Its not even funny how different builds look if moth was banned vs it being free as anything and everything conventional to checking fire types can be thrown out the window due to volcarona not being a pokemon in a vacuum but with 5 other teammates that can realistically support it and prey on your gaping holes which can then be seen vs the general rest of the meta.

Just because something can be checked, does not inherently make it healthy. This is the single most fundamental argument that can be made imo, all of its checks demand specific support or specific team styles if not using these conventional checks, forcing a very unhealthy coin-flip mechanic that is not only unskillful, unfun but uncompetitive as well. If we are to go in a direction of forum tournaments with prep, I'd argue its even more important to get rid of something so utterly ruinous that can just randomly win on the spot so undeservedly, its obvious the meta has evolved well past the balance-spikes meta certain people fear, its not a tall ask at all to overwhelm such team comps. HO won't be going anywhere, it'll still be the same ol' cheese with dragonite of all things which is just as scary if you ask me, only slightly less so due to its speed tier.

 

[fade]

Moth is the most broken mon in this tier by far but it's manageable just learn to position and/or build and accept that you will lose to the right item/move/spread if you don't have a Chansey. Sometimes you'll get fucked by moth with little to do about it but you shouldn't be auto losing every game you load into it. Beat it offensively > defensively and it won't be a headache in the builder. Would not ban it because it feels like less of a noob enabler and more of a way to punish lazy people.

Would rather look at sableye / hoopa over banning moth

 

[Sylvi]

Would rather look at sableye / hoopa over banning moth

#UnbindtheSableye

 

[Excal]

meta good volc not broken no touch

this meta is still ripe w/ exploration, i think there's more room to adapt to volcarona and it'll happen, just like all the other bs like webs screens etc

 

[Amir]

Unbanning Aegislash without King's shield in ORAS OU
​

With Easter and Resurrection Sunday passing us, I would like to talk about the interesting topic that was brought up today in the ORAS discord server was what if we unbanned Pokemon that were banned in XY OU but have never been used in ORAS OU. Similarly, as seen with Latias which got unbanned in DPP OU and turned out to be balanced (even though lots of people were opposed to the idea beforehand, but changed their minds after the implementation was made).

As a reminder, the list of banned XY OU pokemon does contain a ton of broken Pokemon.

Swagger & Shadow Tag (we don't discuss about this).

But with closer inspection, yes the majority are broken but some may fit nicely in today's ORAS metagame.
I would like to shine the limelight on , this pokemon is broken yes due to the wide range of sets but how does it benefit the ORAS metagame? The metagame is much faster than it was before, with lots of new megas which are sitting on the top of the tier list ( ) and with plenty of broken dark types in the tier running around ( ) the metagame is quite offensive and with the fall of Sticky Webs and Screens offence, due to the high usage of keeping those things in check, and drop in usage of fat stall teams. It acts as a steel type that isn't trapped by
Maybe is the answer, may wash our sins, that we have created in this evil metaga- okay straying off-topic.

Here is where the debate comes in, in order to nerf to make it both usable but not broken, a possibility is to ban Kings Shield, by doing so it first restricts a lot of sets, and it allows for pokemon not be completely punished with a -2 drop in Attack when revenge killing or pursuit trapping. Making it become a unique glass cannon. Yes, we remove King's Shield from Smeargle's move set, but it's the same procedure as we did with removing Baton Pass.

I hope for positive changes, may bless you with your scald burns and protect you from the Evil that is .

 

[Siddakid]

Hello to everyone..I saw this discussion and thought I should prolly get in on this cuz quite frankly I've got nothing better to do
now without further ado, here are my opinions on Volc in ORAS OU


I hate Volc. This ugly ass bug is quite frankly the bane of my very existence. The number of times I've cringed after seeing this thing in the team preview is astronomical. The combination of Bulk, Power, Speed, and the ability to set up is what annoys me the most. Usually, when you think of any mon in OU, it has a combination of any 2 out of the 4 traits listed above. A mon to prove this theory would be Mega Scizor. While strong, powerful, and having notable bulk, it's slow as hell and I'm sorry you're not gonna be picking up KOs with an unboosted Bullet Punch. Volc is the opposite of that. It carries high base power moves incl. a signature that boosts its SpA, Quiver Dance, and Roost. As many of us have probably experienced, once Volc gets 1 or 2 boosts, good luck trying to stop it from snowballing out of control. On top of that, this thing isn't some glass cannon set-up sweeper like other mons of a similar caliber that exist in OU. This thing is bulky enough to live hits on both ends (more Specially than Physically, but you get my point) and threaten a KO or QD every time it comes on. Quite frankly it's a nuisance and I don't like it one bit


That being said, while I despise this thing down to the deepest, darkest place of my soul, I do not think that Volc is unhealthy for the meta. As many others before me had mentioned, Volc is shut down by a number of things, specifically: Rocks, 3 ugly pink blobs, Specially bulkier mons, and is super susceptible to a Revenge kill from something like a CB Crawdaunt or Azumarill Aqua Jet. Another thing I want to highlight which wasn't specifically covered is that Volcarona often suffers from 4 Move Syndrome. Ideally, it needs both its STABs for unresisted neutral coverage, Quiver Dance to set up, Roost for longevity, Giga Drain for Quagsire, Hp Ground for Heatran, and Hp Rock for Talonflame. If we do the maths, that's 7 moves, meaning at least 2 things go unaccounted for. Those 2 things could be massive. For instance, without Roost, Volcarona only has a set number of turns its on the field and it can't heal back Rocks damage. Without Hp Ground, Heatran eats it for breakfast. So does Talonflame w/o Hp Rock. The list goes on. Then, there's the issue of the 3 pink blobs which I won't name but everyone knows. These things sit on Volc and can status it, cutting off a vital element to Volcarona's game, whether that be Thunder Wave dropping its Speed or Toxic which puts it on a timer. Another thing to note is that Hazards equally cut into Volcarona's longevity. Rocks by themself, take 50% of Volcs health which is huge in the long run. 50% off something that can be so devastating is massive. And bar that, a ban to Ubers wouldn't suit Volc. In Ubers, it neither has the immediate strength, bulk, nor moves to really threaten the big dogs of Ubers. It just ends up being a 2-bit Xerneas, which it will never outclass by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore, let's all be fr, beating a Volc user is one of the best feelings in this game, aside from maybe beating Stall 6-0 or coming back from 5-1 down to win 6-5. Idk tho, that's just my thoughts. I may not like Volcarona but just because I don't like it doesn't mean that it deserves a ban

 

[Will of Fire]

Not much changed for volcarona during the years, it's always been that strong and if anything it's funny to me that different players still see it as the "mu moth" in a derogatory way. Metagame can adapt and so can volcarona, a good mon is expected to do it after all, so the rock paper scissors game won't end. I don't doubt lazy builders exist, but I suggest not being lazy in actions and for once putting something under votes/suspect/whatever you believe fits, volcarona might be a good starting point.

Personally I'd like to also see some action on sand veil(I would add snow cloak for consistency even if hail has no relevance in the current mg) and king's rock/razor fang, I don't get why stopping at banning bright powder while those 2 are still free and still create bad scenarios that the players can't really control. Unless we're thinking that giving sand support to garchomp is very hard when ttar is that good both mega and regular, I don't think it's helpful to keep it for the improvement of quality of the metagame. King's rock is not much different, cloyster is the major abuser even if lately it's preferring the tspikes set ( a set I've insisted a lot on using it since last spl) but it makes a lot more sense to address the item like it was done in bw.

 

[Karxrida]

Unbanning Aegislash without King's shield in ORAS OU
​

With Easter and Resurrection Sunday passing us, I would like to talk about the interesting topic that was brought up today in the ORAS discord server was what if we unbanned Pokemon that were banned in XY OU but have never been used in ORAS OU. Similarly, as seen with Latias which got unbanned in DPP OU and turned out to be balanced (even though lots of people were opposed to the idea beforehand, but changed their minds after the implementation was made).

As a reminder, the list of banned XY OU pokemon does contain a ton of broken Pokemon.

Swagger & Shadow Tag (we don't discuss about this).

But with closer inspection, yes the majority are broken but some may fit nicely in today's ORAS metagame.
I would like to shine the limelight on , this pokemon is broken yes due to the wide range of sets but how does it benefit the ORAS metagame? The metagame is much faster than it was before, with lots of new megas which are sitting on the top of the tier list ( ) and with plenty of broken dark types in the tier running around ( ) the metagame is quite offensive and with the fall of Sticky Webs and Screens offence, due to the high usage of keeping those things in check, and drop in usage of fat stall teams. It acts as a steel type that isn't trapped by
Maybe is the answer, may wash our sins, that we have created in this evil metaga- okay straying off-topic.

Here is where the debate comes in, in order to nerf to make it both usable but not broken, a possibility is to ban Kings Shield, by doing so it first restricts a lot of sets, and it allows for pokemon not be completely punished with a -2 drop in Attack when revenge killing or pursuit trapping. Making it become a unique glass cannon. Yes, we remove King's Shield from Smeargle's move set, but it's the same procedure as we did with removing Baton Pass.

I hope for positive changes, may bless you with your scald burns and protect you from the Evil that is .

King's Shield ban is stupid.

I admittedly haven't played ORAS since it became an old gen, but I still to this day think that Aegislash would be fine as-is for the tier and it deserves another look. The old King's Shield 50/50 arguments that led to its ban were stupid (it's not random thus it's not a coin flip, people's problem was a literal skill issue with reading opponents and making risk assessments, also Bisharp exists), and like you said the meta is vastly different compared to the sword's departure in early XY. Free the King.

btw Weakness Policy Autotomize is fire and deserves to be playable somewhere.

 

[Nasirr]

Yeah its playable somewhere in AG, have fun w it.

 

[Ithi]

King's Shield ban is stupid.

I admittedly haven't played ORAS since it became an old gen, but I still to this day think that Aegislash would be fine as-is for the tier and it deserves another look. The old King's Shield 50/50 arguments that led to its ban were stupid (it's not random thus it's not a coin flip, people's problem was a literal skill issue with reading opponents and making risk assessments, also Bisharp exists), and like you said the meta is vastly different compared to the sword's departure in early XY. Free the King.

btw Weakness Policy Autotomize is fire and deserves to be playable somewhere.

.-.

I hope you realize the only even remotely reliable check able to touch aegislash w/ pre swsh kings shield nerf is bisharp, not to mention kings shield inherently makes aegislash even bulkier, all of a sudden you need to do these weird lines to be able to touch it, so now all of a sudden it gets a free sub, you can say this same argument for any pokemon, king's shield + the fact it could run a variety of sets made it incredibly unpredictable for how you would manage switching or playing around it. you could very well have no real clue what set it was until it was too late.

anyways, that was a nice little explanation for why aegi was unbearable

 

[UltraSword]

Bro what happened to this thread?

I may be new to this thread but I wish there was more activity here because I really like gen 6 ou and I want to discuss it

 

[tahatahat]

thundurus is fucking broken I loaded an abr six and got 6-0d by Ithi

 

[Ithi]

thundurus is fucking broken I loaded an abr six and got 6-0d by Ithi

Its your fault for letting me set-up in the first place when all you had to do was use mega latias to win the 1v1, chip w/ clef too

anyways, lets start some more discussion in this awesome thread; I would like to discuss hydreigon as it has that dawg inside, i'll be purely honest I genuinely believe specs is the go to set, you're already on a timer and w/o super effective coverage ebelt can left you feeling wanting for power

 

[mixnite]

hydreigon is a beast and nobody knows how to use it.
as always Ithi has the WRONG take
specs hydreigon is a noob trap and to nobody's suprise ithi fell for it. run twave if you want it to actually be good. a set I've been liking is twave + either yache or chople berry since it completely flips your match up vs alakazam and weavile

 

[tahatahat]

one could also just not run hydreigon... to be honest besties I don't much see the consistent appeal since it gets chased out by so much and is on an insta timer to rocks for just existing so offense can play around it that way and it just never breaks any real fat... its like youre fishing balance but then they load a scarf tyranitar or even just a clef and your balance fish doesnt work

maybe with twave support it could have some promise (or just running twave itself)