Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

[X-Act]

That log by TAY is very thought-provoking. That win was too easy, he made at least 3 mistakes in the match and still ended up winning rather comfortably because of Wobbuffet's trapping qualities. That's incredible. I can see why he took the #1 ladder spot now. As he says, the game shouldn't be played that way. :(

And what's more, there's no Tickle in sight.

I'd suggest everyone to read TAY's log and comments. I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of such a team. That's cheap. :(

 

[Odinwolf]

Jumpman, I think we have both made our points. We don't need to keep going back and forth endlessly. I want to reiterate that I don't have beef with you, Obi or any of the other policy makers. In fact, if I felt that the tier system was or should be an entirely objective, stat-based system, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, I find the current system to be hypocritical and I don't think the guys with the power to make changes have done enough to address those issues before they started making changes like moving Wobb to OU against the wishes of a large majority of the community.

I will say that I agree (surprise!) with X-Act's review of TAY's battle log. There is no wonder he made his way to #1 on the ladder using that team. Wobb repeatedly gives him a free stat-up and then he is able to hit anything else in the game for significant damage. He won handily even though his play was sloppy. He left Gyarados in against Gengar to die needlessly and he exploded on Garchomps sub with Metagross. Those are major mistakes that, without Wobb setting up his other stat-uppers, would have been incredibly bad for him. If TAY jumped to #1 on the ladder using this team and that level of play, there is no doubt that other players could be successful using this strategy as well if they wanted to include Wobb on their team.

 

[Amelia]

Well, i'm just going to comment on Tay's log here...
By my viewpoint, he didn't even have to care whether the Pokemon was Scarf'ed or not, because if it was, Wobbufet could come in and kill it...

He basically had to make 0 predictions, (exploding on Chomp?) and yet still won.

 

[TAY]

OK obviously I want discussion of the log I posted and I like the direction the discussion is taking, but I am not a bad player and I don't appreciate being called sloppy >_> (I don't really see anywhere I misplayed except the explosion, which wasn't a bad call since HP Ice wouldn't have KO'd if he had been holding a yache berry--and keep in mind that my Metagross has very few attack EVs and a neutral nature. I left Gyarados in against Gengar because, as I mentioned in my previous post, it outspeeds Gengar after a DD, and even if Gyara fainted it would net me a free KO of Gengar. I suppose I couldv'e switched to Wobb or Chomp, but Chomp couldn't do much at that point since he still had both Gengar and Starmie to OHKO it, plus I don't like to reveal Garchomp early, and Wobb needs all the HP he can get in a sandstorm--in fact it proved to be vital).

Anyway, a lot of the point of my first post was to show that Wobbuffet makes skill a lot less relevant. Even if there might have been situations where a regular team would want to predict or switch out, this team generally works best just plowing through until there are no walls left to stop me. My play wasn't sloppy--I did just what needed to be done, and it worked. The bottom line is that this team can be successful with a different style of play than most good players are used to, and the skill required for that style is far below what the top levels of competitive play should be seeing.

 

[Odinwolf]

I apologize for calling you sloppy. I didn't intend to suggest that you sucked at battling and you ONLY won because of Wobb. My point was, on a team without Wobb to allow multiple set ups, the mistakes of letting Gyarados get OHKO'ed by something that was almost certainly scarfed and exploding on 'chomps sub probably would have put you at an incredible disadvantage. With Wobb in the mix, you were able to shrug off those mistakes and still win with tactics that, as you put it yourself, required less skill than we generally expect from a high level pokemon match.

I do not doubt you are a smart battler. You clearly put together a devastating team and have used it to its potential. I didn't mean to offend, just to point out that one could be sloppy and Wobb can still bail them out. If one of the measuring sticks used to determine the rules here is "increase skill, decrease luck" then I think you've demonstrated, as you pointed out yourself, that Wobb decreases skill.

 

[umbarsc]

I'll post a log as well.

This was from a team from a while back, and with all the "provide PROOF" thing, I decided to try it out again.

This match was never finished, but I pretty much had the upper hand despite his team having some solid counters to my team's main threats.

---

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
narutopoke sent out Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
umbarsc-test sent out Jolteon (lvl 100 Jolteon ?).
narutopoke switched in Claydol (lvl 100 Claydol).
Jolteon used Substitute.
Jolteon lost 25% of its health.
Jolteon made a substitute!
Jolteon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jolteon restored 6% of its health.
---
Jolteon used Baton Pass.
umbarsc-test switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Claydol used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
---
Togekiss used Encore.
Claydol got an encore!
Claydol used Stealth Rock.
But it failed!
---
Maeres has entered the room.
Togekiss is already out.
narutopoke switched in Articuno (lvl 100 Articuno).
Articuno is exerting its pressure!
Togekiss used Baton Pass.
umbarsc-test switched in Lucario (lvl 100 Lucario ?).
Pointed stones dug into Lucario.
Lucario lost 3% of its health.
---
Lucario used Swords Dance.
Lucario's attack was sharply raised.
Articuno used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
---
Lucario used Swords Dance.
Lucario's attack was sharply raised.
Articuno used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Lucario!
Lucario's substitute faded!
---
narutopoke switched in Slowbro (lvl 100 Slowbro ?).
Lucario used Extremespeed.
Slowbro lost 29% of its health.
Lucario lost 10% of its health.
Slowbro's leftovers restored its health a little!
Slowbro restored 6% of its health.
---
Lucario used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Slowbro lost 56% of its health.
Lucario lost 10% of its health.
Slowbro used Calm Mind.
Slowbro's special attack was raised.
Slowbro's special defence was raised.
Slowbro's leftovers restored its health a little!
Slowbro restored 6% of its health.
---
narutopoke switched in Weezing (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Lucario used Close Combat.
It's not very effective...
Weezing lost 38% of its health.
Lucario's defence was lowered.
Lucario's special defence was lowered.
Lucario lost 10% of its health.
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
umbarsc-test switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Weezing used Flamethrower.
Wobbuffet lost 13% of its health.
Weezing's reflect wore off!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
Wobbuffet was burned!
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Weezing got an encore!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet was hurt by its burn!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Wobbuffet used Safeguard.
Your team became cloaked in a mystic veil!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet was hurt by its burn!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
umbarsc-test switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
narutopoke switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
---
Garchomp used Outrage. (right here I could have won by Swords Dancing again, but I was paranoid of Encore)
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Togekiss lost 100% of its health.
narutopoke's Togekiss fainted.
Your team is no longer protected by Safeguard!
---
narutopoke switched in Slowbro (lvl 100 Slowbro ?).
Garchomp used Outrage.
Slowbro lost 27% of its health.
narutopoke's Slowbro fainted.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!
---
narutopoke switched in Articuno (lvl 100 Articuno).
Articuno is exerting its pressure!
Garchomp is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Garchomp lost 29% of its health.
Articuno used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
---
umbarsc-test switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Articuno used Ice Beam.
Mesprit lost 29% of its health.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
---
Articuno used Ice Beam.
Mesprit lost 30% of its health.
Mesprit used Stealth Rock.
Mesprit's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mesprit restored 6% of its health.
---
Articuno used Ice Beam.
Mesprit lost 31% of its health.
Mesprit used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Articuno lost 3% of its health.
umbarsc-test switched in Jolteon (lvl 100 Jolteon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Jolteon.
Jolteon lost 12% of its health.
Jolteon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jolteon restored 6% of its health.
Articuno's leftovers restored its health a little!
Articuno restored 3% of its health.
---
Jolteon used Wish.
Jolteon made a wish!
Articuno used Ice Beam.
Jolteon lost 42% of its health.
Jolteon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jolteon restored 6% of its health.
---
Jolteon used Baton Pass.
umbarsc-test switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Pointed stones dug into Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
Articuno used Ice Beam.
Wobbuffet lost 21% of its health.
Articuno's reflect wore off!
The wish came true!
Wobbuffet restored 50% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet was hurt by its burn!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
narutopoke: kk wobbuffet is banned DUDE
narutopoke has left the room.
umbarsc-test wins!

---

Not against the most informed opponent, but nevertheless, it shows how easily Wobb can set up a team.

 

[RedSP]

Ugh, I can vouch that that team of tay's is incredibly annoying to face. I'm starting to see how Wobbuffet can be a little broken when you do everything right but still end up losing.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Early this morning Colin and AA removed Event Moves from Pokémon on Shoddy Battle, of course including Tickle from Wobbuffet. Instead of regarding this as some sort of victory for the "Wobbuffet is uber" crowd, though,

This isn't a victory for the 'Wobbuffet is uber' crowd, this is actually just a loss for everyone that uses Shoddy. It was an unnecessary change that no one really was clamoring for, and only was recently brought up. But we can be sure that had nothing to do with the rise of Ticklefett right? Right?

I will remind you all that the open opposition to Wobbuffet in standard play had nothing to do with Tickle, which was in many ways its most devastating strategy, and that now your arguments will have to find something else to prove that it's uber. I feel you guys missed an absolutely golden opportunity to demonstrate how broken Wobbuffet is by using Tickle to your advantage, and I wish you luck in doing so from now on.

It clearly didn't matter. Even if we all came the agreement that Wobbuffet was broken because of Tickle (which many of us did, and there will never be a situation where everyone agrees), clearly there would have been the same "Oh its bullshit because it isn't legal" followed by the removal of event moves and then Wobb would probably be brought down yet again. Obviously there are people that are willing to change the environment to allow Wobb to be playable with the assumption that more Pokemon somehow increases variety (or maybe just more numbers to collect).

Anyway, though some of you may feel otherwise, this thread has never expressly been just about Wobbuffet, which is why I put "Wobbuffet 'discussion'" in quotes in the topic title. This thread is about the community coming together and actively making a difference in the metagame.

Clearly the community is irrelevant. Just look at the method that event moves where removed. Shit, I'd be surprised if people outside of this thread even knew this was coming. I saw literally no discussion prior to this happening. Clearly this wasn't an issue the community had, yet it happened. Also I'd be highly amused if Shaymin and the like are still in Shoddy....


As for TAY's log.... all I can say is wow. Ticklefett needs to hang around to get its job done, making Toxic Spikes probably the best way to counter it. But the way TAY used it basically put the entire match into autopilot and made it incredibly fast paced with all the setting up he was doing.

It is sad to see a situation like "Well Gengar could be scarfed, which is probably why he came out anyways, but fuck it, its a better strategy to just not predict ahead because I need to save stuff to set up after I trap things".

 

[Lyfsaho]

Alchemy, as I said previously, you just keep on beating the same dead horse over and over again. No offence, but I don't think you'll go far with that particular strategy. You don't represent the community, get used to it.

@ Tay Log : One log is posted and everyone goes berserk. Seriously. Wobbuffet's main positives in that battle :

- Free turn for Gyarados
- Free turn for Tyranitar
- Encoring Garchomp before dying
- killing Scarfgar off

Good players gain free turns by prediction all day - yes, it's not that hard to do with wobbuffet, but it gets done all the time.

In this particular match, this is aggravated by the fact that both players are employing rather offensive teams - Husk was able to unreliably deal with Gyarados, and had nothing at all to reliably take care of DDTar.

The biggest merit showed off by Wobbuffet in that particular match was the disposing of the choice user, which did seem rather easy. I ask you, is that a bad thing? Choice Scarf is the primary concern here, as both other items will still pack quite a punch and be much harder for Wobbuffet to deal with - I'm sick of scarfed pokemon. Let there be a decrease in them.

 

[umbarsc]

Good players gain free turns by prediction all day - yes, it's not that hard to do with wobbuffet, but it gets done all the time.

You just hit the nail on the head. Prediction. Wobbuffet throws that out the window, as seen in that log. Wobbuffet just makes it so much easier to play without prediction, who needs skill when you can send in Wobbuffet and get in a free turn?

Doorman and TAY both used teams exploiting Wobb to get themselves to #1 on the Shoddy ladder. TAY himself remarked on how effortlessly it is to win when you don't get caught in mind games with the opponent. Just set up rocks with Azelf, boom, then send out Wobb. Free turn.

Also, I'd like an "analysis" on the log I posted, and not just something along the lines of "he didn't even know wobb was banned, nuff said".

@ Tay Log : One log is posted and everyone goes berserk. Seriously.

Um, no there have been more than one log. No one went "beserk", they just realized that it was a thought-provoking piece of evidence.

- Free turn for Gyarados
- Free turn for Tyranitar
- Encoring Garchomp before dying
- killing Scarfgar off

You didn't tell what happened in its entirety. The free turn for Gyarados was against its counter, so if he had no other way of stopping Gyarados he could very easily have gotten two DDs and swept. The free turn for Tyranitar was, again, against his counter, allowing for a free DD. Encoring Garchomp really won him the game, as it meant Garchomp couldn't use Dragon Claw/Outrage against TAY's own Garchomp, so he could soak up an unboosted Earthquake to win. Killing ScarfGar meant that he had no revenge-killer for any of his set-up Pokemon.

All of this was done without any bit of prediction.

The biggest merit showed off by Wobbuffet in that particular match was the disposing of the choice user, which did seem rather easy. I ask you, is that a bad thing? Choice Scarf is the primary concern here, as both other items will still pack quite a punch and be much harder for Wobbuffet to deal with - I'm sick of scarfed pokemon. Let there be a decrease in them.

Who's trying to speak for the community now? "I'm sick of them." What an objective, reasonable argument.

In any case, you didn't realize the biggest advantages to free turns; they allowed the Pokemon to set up against there counters. Here's an example to show how vital it can be.

If Wobbuffet came in on Zapdos (bulky Roost version with Thunder Wave), and the Zapdos user had seen both Scizor and Garchomp on the Wobb user's team, then Wobb immediately has the advantage. If Zapdos uses HP/Roost, he can go to Scizor and set up on the free turns. If he uses Roost/Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave, the Wobb user can go to Garchomp for a free Sub. No matter what happens, Zapdos will be forced out and back in because the Zapdos user can't send out counter x.

This isn't purely theorymon, this exact scenario happened to me. It allowed me a free Swords Dance with Scizor, then Zapdos died to two Quick Attacks upon switching back in. From there I swept easily because Zapdos was his only answer to Scizor.

 

[Jumpman16]

This isn't a victory for the 'Wobbuffet is uber' crowd, this is actually just a loss for everyone that uses Shoddy. It was an unnecessary change that no one really was clamoring for, and only was recently brought up. But we can be sure that had nothing to do with the rise of Ticklefett right? Right?

I had nothing to do with it so don't ask me (though I'm sure you're being somewhat rhetorical for some kind of effect). If I had to speak on Colin's behalf I would probably say something to the extent of "just because we found an error or bug or inconsistency that's been accepted for a while doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fixed". I'm sure it had a lot to do with Ticklefett, but what difference does that make? Are you actually going to take "us" to task for not questioning the validity of Event Moves before now? Give me a break. It reflects much worse on a "Policy Reviewer" to sweep things like this and all-31 IVs Legendaries under the rug because they're fun to play with or have otherwise "been accepted since we first heard of them respectively" than to do the right thing.

It clearly didn't matter. Even if we all came the agreement that Wobbuffet was broken because of Tickle (which many of us did, and there will never be a situation where everyone agrees), clearly there would have been the same "Oh its bullshit because it isn't legal" followed by the removal of event moves and then Wobb would probably be brought down yet again. Obviously there are people that are willing to change the environment to allow Wobb to be playable with the assumption that more Pokemon somehow increases variety (or maybe just more numbers to collect).

Clearly the community is irrelevant. Just look at the method that event moves where removed. Shit, I'd be surprised if people outside of this thread even knew this was coming. I saw literally no discussion prior to this happening. Clearly this wasn't an issue the community had, yet it happened. Also I'd be highly amused if Shaymin and the like are still in Shoddy....

You're making a pretty big assumption on why Colin removed Event Moves, instead of taking AA's Event Moves topic in the PR forum as the real reason. There was discussion about this, and it was pretty unanimously decided by those who posted that there should be a blanket ban on Event Moves. Only maddog's post at the very bottom calls into question why we're doing this when they were put into NetBattle, which does not matter from the "doing the right thing" perspective I've already underlined.

 

[Jumpman16]

Jumpman, I think we have both made our points. We don't need to keep going back and forth endlessly. I want to reiterate that I don't have beef with you, Obi or any of the other policy makers. In fact, if I felt that the tier system was or should be an entirely objective, stat-based system, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, I find the current system to be hypocritical and I don't think the guys with the power to make changes have done enough to address those issues before they started making changes like moving Wobb to OU against the wishes of a large majority of the community.

Our tiering system is in place to promote balance, and is based on both objective and subjective thought. Mekkah said in one of my PR threads that we should stop pretending that everyone will 100% agree with the tiers, and I think everyone would be well-served to accept that. Perhaps, as with the "enjoyment" and "diversity" issues, you have not seen the thinking that has gone into the tier system over the years, otherwise you may more respect that whatever you could come up with yourself may not please any more people then our current tier system does.

So with that issue having been satisfactorily addressed by Policy Reviewers, the issue we had concentrated on was resolving the Limbo Tier, which contained both Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet months ago and now does not contain either. And this thread serves to ensure that Wobby is correctly tiered as far as "balancing the metagame" is concerned. All in all, I think we're doing a good job trying to manage these extremeply complicated policy matters.

---
umbarsc-test switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
Weezing used Will-o-wisp.
But it failed!
Weezing's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
narutopoke switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
---

I genuinely hope you don't think I'm "jamming my thumbs in my ears" as Odinwolf would put it, but leaving an Weezing Encored on Will-O-Wisp on unstatused Garchomp (however it got in) would have been a horrible idea even if Safeguard weren't up. This was very much a turning point in the match, and you have to agree that it was a bad idea to leaving Weezing in because it literally would accomplish nothing but trouble.

 

[Cathy]

I don't know why you keep repeating stuff about event only pokemon. I already addressed that earlier in this thread:

Everything that is possible in the game is allowed unless we specifically ban it. The glitch in the Japanese version that allows you to get Shaymin is legal because we have not specifically banned it. The fact that something is a "glitch" does not play into whether it is banned. Something should only be banned if it breaks the game.

Perhaps you don't agree with me, but I provided this explanation two pages ago, and you keep talking as if it's some mystery. I've also been providing this explanation for months every time somebody asks in the main chat why Shaymin is allowed.

 

[Odinwolf]

So to clarify what Colin just said to you Lord Alchemy, he said "Because I said so."

Our tiering system is in place to promote balance, and is based on both objective and subjective thought.

I agree with this statement. However, all along you have all said that Wobb's usage doesn't warrant him being rebanned, despite the subjective opinion of the majority of the community that he should be. It has also been stated that despite the overwhelming objective evidence that Garchomp centralizes the metagame and could legitimately be considered "Uber" based on usage, the subjective opinion is that he "belongs" in OU. The policy makers, and specifically Colin, get to make those calls as they please without regard for the community or for the inherent contradictions in the arguments. In essence, you too are saying "Because we said so."

I think you would have to agree that, considering those statements, it would appear to the community that you only consider the objective evidence when it satisfies your subjective opinions and use any objective evidence to ignore the subjective opinions of others. Those of us that actually battle are left to deal with the consequences.

 

[SubVersion]

I know narutopoke from a different forum, he's basically a snot-nosed kid who thinks he's god's gift to man. Yeah he sucks (leaving Weezing in is lol), but umbarsc still gained most of his advantage from Wobbuffet which I think is still really important.

TAY's log is amazing, because looking at it, his team is nothing but "5 top-OU Pokemon + Wobbuffet" and he dominates. Makes me feel like I've wasted time building a couple of decent teams over the past couple of weeks (one of which was very well received in the RMT forum). What's the point if it's really this simple?

In this particular match, this is aggravated by the fact that both players are employing rather offensive teams - Husk was able to unreliably deal with Gyarados, and had nothing at all to reliably take care of DDTar.

What's the alternative? If the opponent had a more defensive team, Wobbuffet has an even easier time getting in safely. If anything, I think a log showing Wobbuffet dominating against a team of offensive Pokemon is far more telling than him beating a team of defensive Pokemon.

 

[Earthworm]

As previously mentioned several times in this thread, it would be better if someone (a single person that is a capable battler) saved all logs over a period of time (maybe without predicting at all) against a variety of players and uploaded them as it would probably be easier to objectively analyse them...

Also, (I am not sure if this has been mentioned already) the Shoddy Battle user SNES Master KI managed to reach first place on the ladder with a team that abused Wobbuffet, and he seems to play by a rule where he doesn't switch except out of Wobbuffet. If we could obtain some logs against him (or from him, but I don't think he is a member of this community) it might also help

edit: I constructed a mock team of 5 Psychic Pokemon (one of them is Wobbuffet, the lead) and Yache Garchomp and I will collect logs for every battle.

 

[umbarsc]

I've been collecting logs from my ladder battles under the alias hypotenuse. So far I haven't had many good ones, but I'm winning nearly every battle at the bottom ladder (as I created this alt yesterday) so I'm expecting to climb the ladder and face some better battlers.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

um kind of off subject, but concerning the whole tay/husk match, why is everyone saying it was a domination or handily won. for example (kind of theorymon but highly pausible), husk could've won had he used outrage, or dragon claw (although dc is highly unlikely to ko another garchomp). so had he used a dragon move, instead of eq in fear of not knowing tay's last poke, then it comes down to a guessing game at the end on husk's part.

and here's a fun thing, imagine if tay's garchomp missed. that would've been fun for debate]]

And for earthworm:

got a little lucky against wobbu in this one:

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
SNES Master KI sent out Azelf (lvl 100 Azelf).
grahm sent out Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Azelf used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
Tyranitar used Thunder Wave.
Azelf is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The sandstorm rages.
Azelf is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Azelf lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Rock Slide.
Azelf lost 65% of its health.
Azelf flinched!
The sandstorm rages.
Azelf is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Azelf lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Rock Slide.
Azelf lost 23% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Azelf fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Tyranitar used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 55% of its health.
The Yache Berry weakened Ice Beam's power!
The sandstorm rages.
---
grahm switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Garchomp's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Gyarados...
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
Gyarados lost 54% of its health.
Gyarados used Ice Fang.
Gyarados's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Jirachi (lvl 100 Jirachi).
Pointed stones dug into Jirachi.
Jirachi lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
It's not very effective...
Jirachi lost 23% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Jirachi's leftovers restored its health a little!
Jirachi restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Garchomp's attack!
Pointed stones dug into Gyarados.
Gyarados lost 21% of its health.
grahm's Gyarados fainted.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
But there was no target!
The sandstorm rages.
---
grahm switched in Machamp (lvl 100 Machamp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machamp.
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Machamp lost 41% of its health.
Machamp used Ice Punch.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 45% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Garchomp fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Machamp is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Machamp's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machamp restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
Machamp lost 42% of its health.
Machamp used Rest.
Machamp fell asleep!
Machamp restored 89% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Machamp is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Machamp's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machamp restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Snorlax (lvl 100 Snorlax ?).
Pointed stones dug into Snorlax.
Snorlax lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
It doesn't affect Snorlax...
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Snorlax is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Snorlax lost 6% of its health.
Snorlax's leftovers restored its health a little!
Snorlax restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Hypnosis.
Gengar's attack missed!
Snorlax used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Gengar lost 85% of its health.
Gengar's defence was lowered.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 3% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Gengar fainted.
Snorlax is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Snorlax lost 6% of its health.
Snorlax's leftovers restored its health a little!
Snorlax restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Wobbuffet used Encore.
Snorlax got an encore!
Snorlax used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 30% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Snorlax is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Snorlax lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Snorlax's leftovers restored its health a little!
Snorlax restored 6% of its health.
---
Snorlax used Crunch.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Wobbuffet lost 63% of its health.
Wobbuffet used Counter.
Snorlax lost 87% of its health.
grahm's Snorlax fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Wobbuffet is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Wobbuffet lost 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Pointed stones dug into Tyranitar.
Tyranitar lost 12% of its health.
Tyranitar used Ice Beam.
Wobbuffet lost 7% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Wobbuffet fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Tyranitar's attack!
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 87% of its health.
Tyranitar used Thunder Wave.
Gyarados is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Rock Slide.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 75% of its health.
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 1% of its health.
grahm's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Machamp (lvl 100 Machamp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Machamp.
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Machamp is fast asleep!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance.
Gyarados's attack was raised.
Gyarados's speed was raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Machamp is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Machamp's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machamp restored 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Machamp is fast asleep!
Machamp used Sleep Talk.
Machamp used Dynamicpunch.
It's not very effective...
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Gyarados fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Machamp is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Machamp's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machamp restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Infernape used Nasty Plot.
Infernape's special attack was sharply raised.
Machamp woke up!
Machamp used Dynamicpunch.
Infernape lost 84% of its health.
Infernape became confused!
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 6% of its health.
Machamp is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Machamp lost 6% of its health.
Machamp's leftovers restored its health a little!
Machamp restored 6% of its health.
---
Infernape is confused!
Infernape used Flamethrower.
Machamp lost 94% of its health.
grahm's Machamp fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Jirachi (lvl 100 Jirachi).
Pointed stones dug into Jirachi.
Jirachi lost 6% of its health.
Infernape is confused!
Infernape used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
Jirachi lost 71% of its health.
grahm's Jirachi fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 4% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Infernape fainted.
grahm wins!
SNES Master KI has left the room.

he doesn't seem to know that he can't beat a spiritomb with mirror coat here..

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
SNES Master KI sent out Azelf (lvl 100 Azelf).
grahm sent out Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Azelf used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
Forretress used Toxic Spikes.
Spikes were scattered everywhere!
Toxic Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
grahm switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Spiritomb.
Spiritomb lost 12% of its health.
Azelf used Thunder Wave.
Spiritomb is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Spiritomb's attack!
Spiritomb used Calm Mind.
Spiritomb's special attack was raised.
Spiritomb's special defence was raised.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance.
Gyarados's attack was raised.
Gyarados's speed was raised.
Spiritomb used Dark Pulse.
Gyarados lost 40% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Weezing (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Pointed stones dug into Weezing.
Weezing lost 12% of its health.
Gyarados used Dragon Dance.
Gyarados's attack was raised.
Gyarados's speed was raised.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Weezing lost 61% of its health.
Weezing used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 72% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Gyarados fainted.
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
It doesn't affect Blissey...
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Hypnosis.
Gengar's attack missed!
Blissey used Wish.
Blissey made a wish!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Spiritomb.
Spiritomb lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Hypnosis.
But it failed!
The wish came true!
Spiritomb restored 13% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Wobbuffet (lvl 100 Wobbuffet ?).
Wobbuffet was poisoned!
Wobbuffet was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Spiritomb used Dark Pulse.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 33% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
Spiritomb is paralysed! It can't move!
Wobbuffet used Mirror Coat.
It doesn't affect Spiritomb...
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
Wobbuffet used Encore.
But it failed!
Spiritomb used Dark Pulse.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 35% of its health.
Wobbuffet's leftovers restored its health a little!
Wobbuffet restored 6% of its health.
Wobbuffet is hurt by poison!
Wobbuffet lost 12% of its health.
---
Spiritomb used Dark Pulse.
It's super effective!
Wobbuffet lost 13% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Wobbuffet fainted.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Infernape was poisoned!
Infernape was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
Suuwo has entered the room.
Infernape used Nasty Plot.
Infernape's special attack was sharply raised.
Spiritomb is paralysed! It can't move!
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 12% of its health.
---
Infernape used Nasty Plot.
Infernape's special attack was sharply raised.
Spiritomb used Dark Pulse.
It's not very effective...
Infernape lost 19% of its health.
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 12% of its health.
---
Infernape used Flamethrower.
Spiritomb lost 100% of its health.
grahm's Spiritomb fainted.
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 12% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
grahm switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Pointed stones dug into Tyranitar.
Tyranitar lost 12% of its health.
Infernape used Close Combat.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 88% of its health.
grahm's Tyranitar fainted.
Infernape's defence was lowered.
Infernape's special defence was lowered.
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 6% of its health.
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 12% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Protect.
Blissey protected itself!
Infernape used Close Combat.
Blissey protected itself!
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 12% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Weezing (lvl 100 Weezing ?).
Pointed stones dug into Weezing.
Weezing lost 12% of its health.
Infernape used Close Combat.
It's not very effective...
Weezing lost 13% of its health.
Infernape's defence was lowered.
Infernape's special defence was lowered.
The sandstorm rages.
Infernape is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Infernape lost 6% of its health.
Weezing is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Weezing lost 6% of its health.
Infernape is hurt by poison!
Infernape lost 1% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Infernape fainted.
Weezing's leftovers restored its health a little!
Weezing restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Azelf (lvl 100 Azelf).
Azelf used Psychic.
It's super effective!
Weezing lost 13% of its health.
grahm's Weezing fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Azelf is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Azelf lost 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Protect.
Blissey protected itself!
Azelf used Psychic.
Blissey protected itself!
The sandstorm rages.
Azelf is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Azelf lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Pointed stones dug into Forretress.
Forretress lost 12% of its health.
Azelf used Explosion.
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 36% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Azelf fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp was poisoned!
Garchomp was poisoned by the Toxic Spikes!
grahm switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Cresselia.
Cresselia lost 12% of its health.
Garchomp used Fire Fang.
Cresselia lost 11% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp is hurt by poison!
Garchomp lost 12% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Cresselia used Reflect.
A barrier was formed!
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp is hurt by poison!
Garchomp lost 12% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
Cresselia lost 24% of its health.
Cresselia used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 41% of its health.
The Yache Berry weakened Ice Beam's power!
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp is hurt by poison!
Garchomp lost 12% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Cresselia used Rest.
Cresselia fell asleep!
Cresselia restored 47% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
It doesn't affect Blissey...
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Blissey used Protect.
Blissey protected itself!
Gengar used Hypnosis.
Gengar's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Hypnosis.
Blissey fell asleep!
Blissey is fast asleep!
Blissey's reflect wore off!
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Pointed stones dug into Forretress.
Forretress lost 12% of its health.
Gengar used Focus Blast.
Gengar's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
Forretress lost 43% of its health.
Forretress used Gyro Ball.
Gengar lost 50% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
Forretress lost 15% of its health.
grahm's Forretress fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
---
grahm switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Blissey used Protect.
Blissey protected itself!
Gengar used Focus Blast.
Blissey protected itself!
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
grahm switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Pointed stones dug into Cresselia.
Cresselia lost 12% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp is hurt by poison!
Garchomp lost 12% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Cresselia is fast asleep!
Cresselia used Sleep Talk.
Cresselia used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 9% of its health.
SNES Master KI's Garchomp fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
SNES Master KI switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
SNES Master KI has left the room.
grahm wins!
Suuwo has left the room.

and those are the only two logs i have where he used wobbu (both were in may)

p.s. i actually have every win saved since november.....
p.p.s. in my last 90 logs, only 8 have used wobbu...

 

[IggyBot]

I've taken the liberty of building a team very similar to TAYs, and I will post the logs of my battles shortly in this topic.

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Alchemy
Excuse me for not taking the Policy Review forum seriously. As I said before, the only people allowed to post there are people that took initiative and put themselves into power or had proper connections, and not a single person was actually elected to represent the community.

Remarkably, here we have a point where I am fully in agreement with you.

I'd like to know exactly who is posting in that forum that doesn't deserve to be there. Obviously you think there are posters who aren't deserving of it, or else you two wouldn't of posted that. So please enlighten everyone, who shouldn't be allowed to post in PR that currently is?

Both of you have shown in this topic exactly why neither of you have access to that forum. I suggest that both of you stop posting ignorant and stupid remarks.

 

[Jumpman16]

[a whole lotta off-topic stuff]

If you care enough about these issues I fully expect you to start threads about all of these issues (because you wouldn't just be venting, "right? Right?"), and the community and I especially will be happy to engage you. As it is, this is all off-topic and you know it (I've asked you all to stay on topic). I think I've demonstrated both in this thread and in my time in the community in the last 7+ years that I have absolutely no problem debating with anyone for any period of time, so don't think I'm side-stepping anything.

 

[Fishin]

Given that the definition of Uber is somewhat of a questionable thing these days, it's hard to have a true basis of which an absolute answer can be based upon. But, by the frequently used "A Pokemon that causes overcentralization within it's tier" definition, it's hard to really consider Wobb a centralizing force - on usage lists, it's barely hanging onto OU status, and you don't see Pokemon carrying X move for Wobb. Really, though, I'd attribute this to the fact that Wobb is exteremely difficult to prepare for. Unlike Garchomp, against which carrying more Ice-type attacks on fast Pokemon is a clear safeguard, there's very little you can do to make your team effective against Wobb that's also within a region of viable strategy. This makes me think that the overcentralization definition isn't really the best one, but that's getting slightly off the subject.

As seen in TAY's log, Wobbuffet certainly is extremely powerful if used right, but one of the problem lies in the "if used right", not the "extremely powerful". Using Wobbuffet right is easier than anything else - absolutely no skill is factored into the equation. Of course, that doesn't mean that Wobbuffet isn't ban-worthy from sheer power - that's probably the safest direction to take in the first place anyways, as it's always been one of the main determinants anyways. I want to say that the idea of eliminating something to make the metagame more strategic should be embraced rather than discounted, but that would probably open up a whole new can of worms in the form of anti-Garchomp supporters, though the cases for Garchomp and Wobbuffet are pretty different in nature.

 

[X-Act]

As seen in TAY's log, Wobbuffet certainly is extremely powerful if used right, but one of the problem lies in the "if used right", not the "extremely powerful".

But doesn't that apply for every other Pokemon as well? Salamence is powerful, but only if used right. You don't slap a Salamence in a team and you're automatically guaranteed to win.

And about "having a move to prepare for Wobb"... what move prepares for Wobb that doesn't make you do shit to other Pokemon? You simply can't prepare for Wobb!

 

[TAY]

Using Wobbuffet right is easier than anything else - absolutely no skill is factored into the equation. Of course, that doesn't mean that Wobbuffet isn't ban-worthy from sheer power - that's probably the safest direction to take in the first place anyways, as it's always been one of the main determinants anyways. I want to say that the idea of eliminating something to make the metagame more strategic should be embraced rather than discounted, but that would probably open up a whole new can of worms in the form of anti-Garchomp supporters, though the cases for Garchomp and Wobbuffet are pretty different in nature.

The ideas you have stated here concerning both Wobbuffet and Garchomp are very similar to how I feel. I honestly don't think that Wobb is ban-worthy based purely on his power; however I absolutely think that it is completely legitimate to ban something to make the metagame more strategic. This should be completely intuitive; after all, who would want to play and gain skill in a game in which skill doesn't help you win? Obviously it isn't this black and white, but i think it's a valid point nonetheless, and definitely something to think about and discuss.

It has also been mentioned that Wobbuffet is a pokemon which is essentially impossible to prepare for, and I think that alone makes him unsuitable for standard play.

I think that some of the reason that Garchomp has not been shown to be statistically overcentralizing is exactly the opposite of Wobbuffet: he is extremely easy to maximize preparation for. The main way Chomp is countered is to send in something with an ice attack as it SD's/attacks, weaken it with a first hit to kill yache berry, and then send in something faster to finish it off. Since it's pretty much assured that the first pokemon will be KO'd and the second one won't get touched, it's pretty clear that the list of viable pokemon which could be used to beat Garchomp is pretty big, especially with choice scarf available. In fact almost every pokemon in the top 25 spots on the usage list frequently falls into one of these two categories--everything except Blissey (who carries Ice Beam anyway), TTar (who is sometimes scarfed), Salamence, and Togekiss. When 21 of the top 25 pokemon are essentially equally helpful in defeating Garchomp, it's unlikely that he would become statistically overcentralizing. Just the fact that Garchomp is still by far the deadliest sweeper in the game in spite of the fact that most of the top OU pokes have a role in defeating him, is evidence that his power is simply not suitable for OU.

(I believe Tangerine posted earlier saying that this thread is no longer exclusively about Wobbuffet, which is why I have discussed Garchomp as well.)

 

[Lyfsaho]

What we are moving towards now is not an objective discussion, but a series of subjective opinions; it seems some people are now starting to accept Wobbuffet does in no way overcentralize the metagame, but think he's not enjoyable to play against.
Seriously, I hate Breloom. Spore is just excruciating to deal with. I'd be much happier if Breloom wasn't around. Too bad it is.
I believe Jumpman reopened this topic to begin with to see some raw evidence, not "Wobbuffet can't be prepared for".

Of course he can be prepared for : Use one or two u-turners in your team together with a ghost. Use one or two taunters in your team. Use toxic spikes. Use one or two pokemon with access to Toxic, preferably walls. Use Dugtrio on your team. If you used choice specs / band, use things than you know will be able to annihilate Wobbuffet when he comes in. Use mixed sweepers which are able to damage him from both sides of the spectrum. Use pursuiters.

The above are just examples of ways to prepare for Wobbuffet.

Or you could just, you know, use prediction. You'll say, how can I predict when I can't switch out? Well, you'll see Wobbuffet for the first time at some point in a match, and until then, your possibilities are limited. But after you've first seen him, you can predict when it would be beneficial for your opponent to bring him in and switch / move accordingly. So yes, prediction is also possible.

 

[EvilBob]

The problem with preparing for Wobbuffet though is that EVERY pokemon on the team has to have some way of dealing with Wob, or it's going to be trapped and killed, or encored and set up against. Also taunters are usually pretty predictable, and pretty much only work if your opponent mistakenly switches in Wobb against it.