Odd Keystone

[Objection]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.​

Odd Keystone - it's an item tied to a specific Pokemon (namely Spiritomb). If we can have Moss Rock and Ice Rock, then surely we can have Odd Keystone. The question is, what effect should it have? Proposed effects include:

• Reducing the effectiveness of Fairy-type moves to the next level of resistance (2x weak -> neutral, etc.)
• Doubling the effect of Pressure
• Increasing (one of) Spiritomb's defensive stats
• Increasing (one of) Spiritomb's offensive stats

Additionally, we will need to consider the CC cost of Odd Keystone. 8 CC has been suggested already but other amounts may be possible.

So let's discuss this bad boy!

 

[Eternal Drifter]

I think that the reduction of effectiveness of Fairy-Type moves is a good start for the item. I think it doesn't have any comparasion to any other items we have currently, so we could make it unique in that regard. (Plus it returns Spiritomb to having no weaknesses unless hit with an identification move first.)

I think increasing Spiritomb's stats with this item may be the wrong way to go, mainly because the Everstone does the same. For reference:

Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the Pokemon's initial Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's STAB changes, this bonus will change to correspond with it. If the Pokemon uses Transform, it alters the boost on Everstone to the target species' highest true base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it, regardless of the target's BRT.

Cost: 15 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving that have not evolved from a previous Pokemon.

This translates to the following for Spiritomb:

Increases the Pokemon's Defense and Special Defense by one (1) Rank each. Increases the Pokemon's Dark and Ghost STAB Base Attack Power by one (1).

Personally, I do not think that many Spiritomb users (other than myself) would use the Keystone if we increased Spiritomb's defenses in a similar manner like the Everstone. The Everstone also slightly increases Spiritomb's offenses as well, increasing STAB by 1. We could go and make a 'reverse Everstone' with this, increasing Spiritomb's lowest true base stat of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by 1 rank each (Attack and Special Attack, in this case), in addition to increasing STAB power, turning the Spiritomb from a Tank to an enduring Cannon.

However, with the massive boost in number of type items this coming generation, I think it might be good to provide a different boost. I am keen on the doubling of Pressure, since it currently is restricted to one other signature item. Of course, considering my preference of stall, I am somewhat biased in that regard, so take that with a grain of salt.

In short: Prefer reduction of fairy weakness and pressure boost.

 

[Geodude6]

Prefer reduction of fairy weakness and pressure boost.

This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

(also, on a completely unrelated note, ED it surprises me that you do not yet have a Dusknoir)

 

[Complications]

Personally, I don't think Odd Keystone should be implimented. Consider:
1. All current signature items fall into 4 ingame-based categories: they are used to evolve a Pokemon; they are used to make baby pokemon; they serve as the catalyst of a form change; they have an in-game battle effect. The Odd Keystone fails to fall into any of these categories. It doesn't evolve Spiritomb, Spiritomb doesn't have a baby form, Spiritomb has no alternate formes, and the Odd Keystone has no ingame battle effect. Even items such as the Soothe Bell have basis in the fact that they increase friendship, allowing Pokemon that evolve by that method to evolve faster ingame.
2. The item is either outclassed or illogical, bar the pressure effect, even in conjunction with another affect. Raising a single defensive stat a single rank is obviously outclassed by Everstone, which raises its Def and SDef along with boosting the BAP of its STABs. While a boosted offensive stat may give a better damage output than Everstone, it is in turn outclassed by items such as the Life Orb and Expert Belt. Additionally, Spiritomb is a balanced pokemon. Its special and physical sides are statistically equal, which would lead to the question of which stat to boost, and why does it have precedence over the other? In regards to fairy immunity, it is illogical. What flavor-based or mechanic reason does Spiritomb have to suddenly gain a free immunity? This is an in justified buff with absolutely no reason other than to buff. Even Dusknoir's Reaper Cloth, which gives it levitate, has a reason in the fact that Dusknoir is a distinctly floating Pokemon.
3. If we were to implement Odd Keystone, what other items would we have to consider that shouldn't be implimented. Big Nuggets? Training Bags? Lava Cookies?

Before we consider what effect it will have, consider why we want to impliment this as an item. Why does it need to exist when we already have a perfectly viable "signature item" for Spiritomb to use in the form of Everstone.

Also, as a side note, ED, if you were more willing to apply a nature that reduces speed or defenses, maybe boosting its offenses wouldn't be such a problem. I feel like this reluctance to apply certain natures is influencing your suggestion in a way the majority doesn't necessarily agree with. For example if I had a Spiritomb, I'd be perfectly happy running a Brave or Quiet nature, an using Everstone to compensate for my subpar HP.

 

[Geodude6]

-snip-

1. The Odd Keystone is an item which is required to capture Spiritomb ingame. While it does have no purpose other than to do so on-cartridge, it does make flavor sense to have it in ASB as an item to buff Spiritomb. I will admit, this is a flimsy explanation, but it at least kinda makes sense.

2. You are correct in saying that Spiritomb should not gain another immunity. However, my proposal was to remove Spiritomb's Fairy weakness and make it a neutrality, not an immunity. If you can come up with a better effect, I'm all ears.

3. This is going off on a tangent, but I would have no issue implementing Nuggets and Lava Cookies as TLR items. (to be honest, I thought the Lava Cookie was already implemented :P)

4.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Basically, Complications' Point 3 says it all. Okay, we have implemented an Odd Keystone, designed to buff Spiritomb. Oh look, a precedent is set. We should now implement Fossils for all the fossilmons with individual buffs for them. Oh, they got a buff. How about an item for Pokémon X, that Pokémon needs a buff, because all the other Pokémon got a buff! How about we even implement those signature items from the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon series now? It goes on & on to a point where everything has their own signature item, all because we gave Spiritomb a signature item.

As you might have figured out, I am being ridiculous & far-fetched, but what I am doing is illustrating a point. We buff one thing, a precedent will be set & we have to buff everything else. Is this what we want? A buff culture that gets very much out of control like the last time when we were all suggesting shit like buffing Splash, Mega Punch, Aqua Ring, etc. Then the buff culture gets so out of control that Deck has to put his foot down & stop the entire buff culture, forcing buffs to be approved by him. Is this what we want to happen again? Have we not even learned from last time?

Odd Keystone should not be implemented.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'm not crusading for a Dewford Gem item to return Sableye to a no-weaknesses state. This item has no reason to exist in ASB.

 

[Dogfish44]

Inclined to agree with Comp/IAR/Lou here, we don't need to give Spiritomb a special item.

Also, for those who actually want this, the burden of proof is on you to show there's a good reason to add the item.

 

[Deck Knight]

I don't see the balance value that this would provide Spiritomb over what Everstone does for it, which is relatively significant.

I could design an effect that focuses on making Spiritomb more offensive, but I don't really see the point. In general I'm opposed to buffs even if they do have some in-game precedent to them like Odd Keystone, but I'm struggling to find a reason. Spiritomb has pretty good stats and abilities, (movepool has more diversity than one would think, but not a lot of power moves) and with Ghost and Dark both no longer being resisted by Steels, I think Spiritomb got a net buff this generation as most of the things that walled it no longer do.

Rare Candy and Everstone I implemented as a balancing mechanism for weaker stats, so that, as a general rule, the weakest Pokemon (BRT < 18) would at least be able to bump up to parity or have a better specialization. The elemental stones I implemented because many of the abilities of those Pokemon will never be activated in a realistic battle situations (maybe doubles, but even then), and this would also allow them a good niche. That's why Stones primarily activate abilities and RC / Everstone primarily address stats. The only time I deviated from this was Grass Rock and Moss Rock, in order to give those Eeveelutions parity with Flareon/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Espeon/Umbreon.

Actually that reminds me, I need to find an item that applies to Sylveon because Max Mon-Amie + Fairy Move doesn't activate Soothe Bell (unless I make it do so via fiating Mon-Amie affection to be equivalent to happiness).

 

[Stratos]

IMPLEMENT POKEFLUTE SNORLAX ONLY HELD ITEM

IMPLEMENT SILPH SCOPE GENGAR ONLY HELD ITEM

IMPLEMENT WAILMER PAIL SUDOWOODO ONLY HELD ITEM

All three of the above are just as logical as the odd keystone, since they're required to catch a pokemon. They're also all incredibly silly and i (for good reason) don't see them being suggested. The only reason i can imagine for odd keystone being proposed is that someone desperately wants spiritomb to still have no weaks. Which i cannot get behind. (Why the fuck not is a terrible reason and a terrible road to go down. You don't alter game balance unless it's necessary.)

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah, so I'll just be closing this down, no more commentary necessary.