Metagame NP ZU Stage 9: March of the Pigs - Uxie Ban, and Vulpix Unban #18

[Tuthur]

​

Emboar was one vote away from a quickban. It is without a doubt the most polarizing force in the tier, thanks to its insane capacities as a wallbreaker. Reckless boosted STAB Flare Blitz is able to 2HKO some of the sturdiest walls in the tier like Palossand and Sandaconda and is Emboar's biggest asset. But it is not its only one, as Close Combat is another powerful STAB move that can dismantle Fire resists like Kingdra and Snorlax, Sucker Punch is a powerful priority move that can damage faster attackers like Hoopa and Mesprit, Knock Off is a good midground option that deals great damage and makes certain progress. There are other options like Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Wild Charge, but they are more scarce, but all have their use.

Defensively, Qwilfish is the number one stop to Emboar, only being scared by uncommon coverage moves in Earthquake and Wild Charge. There isn't much Emboar can do back to Qwilfish, while Intimidate and Qwilfish's tremendous utility kit let's it always take advantage of it. With Tera Fairy, Snorlax resists all of Emboar's common moves and can beat it 1v1, though it often results in Snorlax needing to use Rest. Dipplin has also seen some popularity as it avoids the 2HKO from all of Emboar's moves. There are also some less reliable checks that are either very physically bulky and can avoid the OHKO like Sandaconda and Palossand, as well as Pokemon like Cramorant, Charizard, and Oricorio that resists Emboar STAB combination, though they still take massive damage and hate its other moves. Offensively, Emboar is slower than most of the tier, so most faster attackers like Kingdra and Mesprit can outspeed and revenge kill it. While it has great bulk which can make it tough to initially revenge kill, it gets naturally chipped by Flare Blitz and drops its Defense with Close Combat, making revenge killing it easier in practice than on paper.

That said, Emboar is not that slow. It outspeeds the other slow wallbreakers like Clawitzer, Exeggutor-Alola, and Glastrier which pack similar offensive prowess but are more easily revenge killed. And its access to Sucker Punch means it can often pick up weakened faster foes, especially if it decides to commit to Tera Dark which also pairs well with Knock Off. Another great tool of Emboar is its flexibility with items, it doesn't need a boosting item to achieve what was presented earlier. It can opt for Choice Scarf to make up for its underwhelming Speed, for various items like Heavy-Duty Boots and Assault Vest to improve its longevity, Choice Band to 2HKO the whole tier, and even niche options like Custap Berry and Eject Pack that can create surprise and have to be respected.

• ***WE ARE USING A NEW METHOD FOR SUSPECT REQS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. We will be trialing a new method for reqs that does NOT utilize GXE. Instead, the voting requirements are that you achieve an 80% winrate with a minimum of 32 games won. For example, a record of 32 wins to 8 losses is an 80% winrate which totals at 40 games overall, thus you would qualify for reqs with this. A record of 32-0 would also qualify for reqs, and is the minimum amount of games that can be played to qualify. There is NO maximum game limit, so you may take as many games as you need to achieve reqs as long as you arrive at an 80% winrate. For example, a record of 46 wins to 11 losses would also qualify me for reqs, as 80% of 57 is 46 wins.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ZUPIG. For example, I might signup with the ladder account ZUPIG Tuthur.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• The aspect being tested, Emboar, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until Thursday 30th May at 11:00 PM GMT+2 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[Tuthur]

ZULT accounts do also accounts btw. But make sure to make them verify by a forum moderator before laddering further with them.

 

[diegoyuhhi]

so basically i got free reqs with my ladder tour acc, here are the teams i used if anybody wants to steal them for either suspect or lt

legit the first team i made post world cup, lt was starting and i still hadn't tried new meta but i had seen some games so i kinda knew what was good and what wasn't, and i slapped together what looked like the best 6 to me. team is very straight forward, you have 3 (4?) mons who can spread paralysis, 2 powerful but slow attackers in boar and hoopa, pivots to bring them in, hazards, speed control with htrode, a wincon in lax, and all of this while still mantaining a pretty good defensive core. max speed on band emboar can pick up some surprise ko's, tho it can also be made adamant/bulkier. fairly easy to use, can even be customised with different items/moves/spreads on most mons.

boar-qwil-htrode 2: electric boogaloo. i realised most teams on ladder were either relying on palo/sanda as voltblockers or didnt have one at all, using only htrode as an electric resist. this looked really good for htrode who could easily clean games with its nice speed tier, but its lack of power meant that it often couldn't break for itself, and that's why i paired it with fellow electric-types-that-can-also-hit-grounds (and grasses!) in frostom and vika. rest of the team was mandatory qwil, bomb for rocks, pivoting and a spdef wall, and scarf boar for the fwg core and for extra speed control. this team is imo much harder to pilot, but if used well it can be even better than the previous one, having little to none bad mu's.

EMBOAR

i still have to make up my mind on this mon.
on one hand, it is utterly broken, with very little resisting its stab combo, and the mons who do just get smacked by coverage. boar also has insane item variety, between band/scarf/av/boots/custap and fringer options like eject pack/life orb/muscle band/balloon (that is a thing apparently). it hits insanely hard, has decent bulky while still not being too slow.
on the other hand, it has huge 4mss: after flare blitz/cc (basically mandatory), boar would want to run all of knock/eq/sucker/wild charge/heavy slam/head smash, and if you go for other fringer options like bulk up/trailblaze/wisp/taunt that limits its move choice even more. it has a few soft checks who can switch into it a couple of times per game, and with it often killing itself through recoil+helmet chip+hazards chip if not running boots, that usually lets you handle it in the short term, which is fine if your team is offensive enough. it also helps a lot agains various cheese playstyles like grassy terrain and sun, with its defensive typing and fire stab becoming very useful in dealing with them.
the thing is like: emboar is broken but it checks other potentially broken archetypes (gterrain and sun), but do we want to play a game of broken checks broken? my personal answer is no. emboar's entire existence makes all defensive/balance playstyles practically unusable if they can't apply enough pressure on it before it can remove its own checks and run away with the game or open huge holes in defensive backbones. right now, the good teams in the meta only range from bulky offense to hyper offense solely due to emboar's existence. if we ban emboar, then other mons and playstyles may become broken, yes; but if they do, we would just ban them. i have faith in our council, and imo we shouldn't be scared of making too many bans.
for these reasons, i'll probably vote ban, tho i'm still not entirely sure.

 

[Tuthur]

ZU will be holding 3 suspect tours at the following times:

- Friday the 24th at 6pm GMT-4
- Saturday the 25th at 11am GMT-4
- Sunday the 26th at 2pm GMT-4

Winners of the suspect tours will automatically get reqs for the suspect.

 

[5Dots]

These reqs were very rough. It wasn't easy having to deal with unlucky paralyses and ridiculous sets from weird Pokemon during my run. I will, however, give some thoughts of sun and ways i've been dealing with it:

DROUGHT/SUN ​

I was surprised to hear about Emboar getting a suspect over what I believe what should've been inspected first. Vulpix is back with Drought and its arguably at its strongest state yet. New drop Charizard alongside returning sun staples in Scovillain and Shiftry is one of the scariest and spammable archetypes to face off against. Solar Power Charizard has nearly nothing switching in safely: even Water-types like Cramorant and Lanturn have massive problems switching in safely to Tera Fire Weather Balls. Even so, Snorlax will probably trade with other sun sweepers like Victeebel and Lilligant to ensure they don't run rampant over them. Shiftry is probably the best of all Chlorophyll sweepers, wielding STAB Knock Off and being one of the few physical sun sweepers. Outside of Sun, Sucker Punch is particularly annoying against Bruxish (not counting unusual Dazzling sets), and faster Pokemon like Haunter and Typhlosion, Pokemon that would otherwise pick off sweepers out of the sun. Victreebel hasn't actually been too problematic considering its sluggishness and being outsped by opposing sun sweepers, but the extra Poison subtyping has been helpful into Grasses like Dipplin and Arlibova, Pokemon that would otherwise easily trade or potentially even win given their great bulk. Lilligant has been the most tera-dependent, with either its tera being a game-changer or perhaps doing nothing to help the matchup. Leafeon has been the hardest to fit on a team, but the extra physical bulk gives it some usefulness and makes it easier for it to run Synthesis. Scovillain synergizes well, having arguably the best offensive typing of all chlorophyll sweepers with Fire/Grass. Typhlosion, with the help of entry hazard control from Pokemon like Hattrem, is a scary threat with boosted Eruptions. Even Vulpix gets to join in the fun with utility in Healing Wish, Will-O-Wisp, and Encore to prevent it from. being complete setup fodder! Other sun sweepers I haven't mentioned, like Exeggutor, Sawsbuck, and Ivysaur also have their specific merits, but overall I find the Pokemon pictured above to be more consistent in fitting on sun teams. Overall, Drought/Sun teams have great variety in what sweepers/breakers to choose from, and should always be accounted for in the builder.

Checks to Sun:​

Probably the strongest check. Excellent special bulk + Thick Fat makes it tough for most Sun sweepers to break past, as the Chlorophyll Pokemon I've mentioned are specially offensive - their bulk also isn't great for handling Body Slams (especially boosted) and the occasional Heat Crash, and Snorlax itself can be nasty with Tera - Dragon in particular is a sun killer due to now resisting Grass-type moves. Even Shiftry has great difficulty handling +1 Body Slams, and Shiftry is arguably its best way of trading with Snorlax!

Funny that the suspected Pokemon is actually a pretty good answer! Resistant to Shiftry's Knock Off, not being weak to Stealth Rock, and resisting Fire and Grass-type moves allows its defensive profile to shine, even if its base defenses aren't too great. While a lot of Emboars have been Choiced, I've seen a couple that equipped with Assault Vest to make it even more consistent against sweepers like Victreebel and Lilligant, which could help if a sun sweeper is setting up against something like Electrode-Hisui / Sandslash.

Yes, even Frosty gets a chance to shine. Snow Warning triggering completely puts a stop in sun sweepers and negates Charizard's Solar Power and the Chlorophyll sweeper's speed, enabling standard non-Sun Pokemon to finally shine (in the snow). Unlike Vulpix, Abomasnow has much greater flexibility on its item slot: Heavy-Duty Boots makes it more consistent throughout the match as an anti-Vulpix measure, while Choice Scarf gets the jump on the Grass-types and Scovillain/Charizard looking for an easy revenge kill. Abomasnow's special bulk is far more lacking, though, so it isn't as consistent as something like Snorlax or Emboar.

Perhaps the bulkiest Pokemon in ZU, Dipplin's excellent bulk and typing makes it resilient at fighting back against all Chlorophyll sweepers alike - Lilligant gets ruined by Dragon Tail, and Victreebel has a hard time against standard Tera Poison variants. Meanwhile, Tera Dragon can be a good midground against Typhlosion and Charizard as well as the aformentioned Chlorophyll sweepers. I think my biggest issue is that it lacks Snorlax's defensive profile and overrelies on Eviolite and Tera to shore up its vulnerability against Fire-types, but it has been otherwise a solid choice against these breakers/sweepers!

Without Tera, solely as a check to the Fire-types. Regirock was already a physical tank, so why not invest some in its special defense? Body Press and Stone Edge have been nice at threatening out Shiftries and Scovillains looking to take advantage of it, and its great defensive stats means it can almost always stomach a hit and threaten something out with Thunder Wave in return. Outside of Tera, though, it's not effective against Pokemon like Lilligant and Leafeon, and is prone to getting overwhelmed due to its damage output usually not being sufficient.

Other Pokemon like Muk, Rhydon, and Appletun have been fine at checking specific threats, but I've had limited success using them and these Pokemon haven't been trend-worthy to be worth considering.

EMBOAR​

What I've been getting to after 100+ games on the suspect: Is Emboar too oppressive? I personally think no - the meta has been quite offensive, which doesn't suit its strengths. Most teams also have Qwilfish paired with something to resist at least one of its STAB moves to makes its job at wallbreaking quite prediction-reliant, which when combined with either drawbacks like recoil, defense drops, and moves lacking power outside its STABs, and Emboar tends to trade a lot more often instead of being the ace defense breaker it was meant to be. It's also quite slow as a Choice Scarfer, with Jolteon and Electrode-Hisui being common non-Choice Scarf sights that can freely Volt Switch around it. And that's not mentioning the plethora of faster Scarfers like Bruxish, Mesprit, and Kingdra that can all pressure it with ease. Even once it's in preparing to smash defensive walls, Pokemon with enough bulk and longevity, like Sandaconda, Regirock, and Palossand, while not as reliable Qwilfish, have still been consistent at forcing Emboar into guessing games while having the longevity to consistently stick around as utility Pokemon. While Emboar has been a great wallbreaker with decent set and move diversity, it just doesn't have the Speed, bulk, and consistency to deem it broken (again, Sun would be a better suspect candidate IMO, not Emboar). My vote right now is do not ban.

Team used during reqs:

Curse Regi + NP Uxie

NP Uxie was already a great sweeper in SS ZU thanks to Levitate, good Speed, and excellent bulk, and is now arguably even better than it was thanks to Tera Fairy enhancing Draining Kiss. Regirock's excellent mixed bulk makes it a catch-all to most resists. Regirock's Body Press and greater initial bulk distinguishes it from Coil Sandaconda/Orthworm and makes it a solid Snorlax check. Assault Vest Hoopa has been popping off and incorporate 3 Special Attacks + Knock Off, which the set given would take on both physical and special walls. Decidueye-Hisui has been a consistent Defogger owing to its excellent bulk, Roost, and a reliable defensive typing that also makes it a great pivot. Specs Jolteon put in great work against non-Volt Switch immunities and I valued the extra coverage, power, and Volt immunity Electrode-Hisui lacks. Qwilfish rounded the team off as an Emboar check and decent speed control with Thunder Wave, and spikes support.

 

[BaitWiz]

Haven't gotten reqs yet, who knows if I'll finally break my streak of not getting reqs here or if I'll keep trying at it, but anyway here we go

Emboar

art by Poketix on Deviantart​

After playing a solid 60 or so games on ladder thus far, half with sun and half with a team including Emboar, I've found that Emboar is ridiculously efficient at dismantling balance cores, often trading for itself and then some every game. Its extreme set variety means that opponents often are forced to gamble against it, allowing for certain moves like Sucker Punch, Earthquake, and Wild Charge to gain extreme value, just to name a handful of the many options already mentioned earlier in the thread. Emboar can do no wrong with its sets; whether its a bulky AV set, Bulk Up, a four attacks HDB set, or faster Choice Band/Scarf sets, Emboar will get work done. The extreme power of Reckless boosted STAB Flare Blitz isn't possible to repeatedly switch into, and its secondary Fighting STAB either gives it additional tools for dealing even more damage or, even worse, increasing its longevity - as a random example, I've found that after a Bulk Up Emboar can trade with Regirock with Drain Punch and end up still reasonably healthy for its trouble, though that interaction doesn't occur too much due to Regirock's fear of Close Combat. Sucker Punch and Knock Off are deadly Dark-type coverage options that further increase Emboar's ability to make progress for its team, catching faster Psychic-types like Hoopa and Mesprit who would otherwise check Emboar, barring terastalization. Meanwhile, Emboar's most reliable defensive counterplay has been narrowed down to the extensive list of Qwilfish, who is decent but lacks longevity, and Dipplin, who is about as passive of a wall as ZU has to offer. Other pseudo-defensive checks exist like Tera Dragon Sandaconda and bulky versions of Oricorio Baile and Cramorant, but these either fall prey to the right coverage option or can just get bruteforced through with time due to Emboar's immense power often breaking through before its health gives out.
I'd be remiss to not mention that Emboar's one of the few things that's preventing Sun from being truly unstoppable in ZU - its ability to resist the many Fire- and Grass-type moves that Sun often spams is invaluable defensive utility for teams attempting to weather the likes of Charizard, Scovillain, and Shiftry. Emboar also does well into certain types of Grassy Terrain teams, though its far more limited in this role compared to its extremely solid matchup against sun. That being said, I think I ultimately side with Diego in that I think I'd rather ban more mons overall then live in a metagame of broken checks broken, and thus I'd push for Emboar to be banned from ZU.

Epilogue: Sun

Sun's presence within the metagame has been felt by many across the first ZU Ladder Tour Cycle; I spammed the living daylights out of it for the first half of the cycle to decent success. After having played around 30 games of sun thus far, I have to say that the playstyle is without a doubt over the line in its present form. I'm not going to take up a ton of space to talk about sun, as this is the Emboar suspect thread after all, but I think that Drought should be looked at after this suspect test, especially if Emboar is banned from the tier.

 

[Tuthur]

Given how both suspect threads have been going, I feel the need to clarify that we won't be having any tiering action on anything for the duration of the suspect test. There seem to be a sentiment that sun is too much for the tier, and there are high chances tiering actions will follow the suspect test if this sentiment persists until then.

Believing that sun is a bigger than Emboar is fine, but this shouldn't distract you from the fact, this is an Emboar suspect test. Voting do not ban Emboar because you wanted actions on sun instead is counterproductive, as we won't resuspect Emboar immediatly and tiering actions will tackle other elements. Voting do not ban Emboar means you are fine with Emboar staying in the tier, as no further action will be taken on Emboar for a significant time, regardless of what happens with sun.

That said, you can definitely vote do not ban Emboar if you believe it is not broken. Just don't vote do not ban for the wrong reason.

As for my opinion on Emboar, I do believe it is quite obvious it is too much for the tier. Any team that doesn't have Qwilfish and isn't HO just gets murdered by it. It is way too hard to switch into Emboar, especially since it has a priority and can switch moves, while it is far too easy to position well with it due to all the great pivots we have. I've used Emboar VoltTurn for all the duration of the suspect test, and the only team I had trouble with were HO and Qwilfish balance; Dipplin and Fairy Snorlax aren't reliable enough answers, due to the former extreme passivity and both being quite easily overwhelmed between Spikes, VoltTurn chips, and Emboar's powerful Flare Blitz.

Here is the team I used: https://pokepast.es/fdff681f25c6b141, use it a bit and I hope it will convince you to vote BAN.

 

[BloodAce]

Firstly, I fully agree that just because sun is problematic, arguably even more so than Emboar, it does mean that that Emboar should be ignored. Emboar is a mon that helps with sun a broken playstyle, yes, but it also a mon that is is broken its own right and I agree that playing a game of broken checks broken is not the way to go.

I will be voting BAN on Emboar. I also fully support action being taken on sun by council following this suspect test as sun is completely ridiculous for its own reasons.

The following is a summary on what pushes over the edge in my view

1. Defensively checking Emboar

Emboar simply has no reliable defensive checks that can safely come in more than once.

The most common and splashable check is , utilizing residual chip from rocky helmet and spikes in conjunction with the recoil emboar already takes from its recoil moves to quickly wear down. While Qwilfish is usually fairly effective in doing this, it usually comes at the cost of essentially trading with Emboar, as most Emboar sets have the capacity to 2HKO Qwilfish and Qwilfish lacks reliable recovery (pain split lol) and is susceptible to hazards. Choice Band Wild Charge can outright OHKO after minimal hazard chip. A pair I found effective at taking advantage of many teams reliance on trading their Qwilfish to handle was Emboar + Healing Wish , which was able to pivot in Emboar early game and then later on healing wish it after Emboar removes Qwilfish, allowing Emboar to break holes in the rest of the opposing team.

Most other potential answers such as , Tera Fairy , Tera Dragon , and (lol) share similar issues on either not having reliable recovery, being susceptible to hazards, or both which makes them very easy to wear down especially in a meta with frankly medicore hazard control options. Most of these are also forced to dedicate their teams tera to deal with Emboar while Emboar can largely do its job without needing to tera which is further constraining for the opposing team.

2.) Sheer versatility of sets

Emboar is a contender for having the most set variety in the entire tier which makes it even harder to deal with. Its solid typing, expansive coverage options, and even access to utility moves like Taunt can allow it to run a bevy of sets. Between Assault Vest, Band, Scarf, Bulk Up (can even utilize trailblaze), and more it can be incredibly unpredictable and many teams will struggle to account for all of its potential sets at once.

And to tie this in with the arguments on offensive counterplay, it is true that Emboar has a tendency to get overwhelmed (especially when running choiced sets) by offensive threats that can outpace scarf Emboar such as the fast electrics , and scarfers like , , , etc but most of these can also be invalidated by Tera Dark Sucker Punch sets. An Emboar you thought was running choice scarf can easily turn out to not be choiced and goob you with sucker. While Emboar has incredible wallbreaking abilities, access to this strong powerful priority in addition to higher speed is what in my opinion sets it apart from other extremely strong breakers such as a .

3.) Over centralization in teambuilding

The crux of the issue is that Emboar has had a clear negative effect on teambuilding, warping balance builds especially. Qwilfish is near mandated on most balance teams to check it and Emboar is often able to overwhelm it anyway. The metagame has alot of offensive threats and dealing with all of them on one team can be quite a task but Emboar's unrivaled ability to dismantle balance teams while also posing a threat to more offensive teams with some of its sets is what pushes it over the edge for me. The constraints Emboar puts on teambuilding can often make teams worse into other top threats such as which absolutely loves to see water resist being and the decreased usage of grass types like that could check it . I believe that banning Emboar will ease constraints in builder, making it more managable to deal with other threats and increasing diversity in the meta.

TL;DR: Insane set variety, access to strong priority sets it apart from otherwise comparable breakers like , over centralization in builder, etc are all reasons I will vote to BAN Emboar.

 

[sleid]

Congratulations to budgetplayer for winning the First Emboar Suspect Roomtour and thus earning the right to vote! You can see the finals game below. Tune in tomorrow, Saturday, May 25th at 11AM (GMT -4) for the second one, hosted by BloodAce!

Finals - budgetplayer vs my name is goburin

bracket

 

[BloodAce]

Congratulations to BaitWiz for winning the second Emboar Suspect Roomtour and thus earning the right to vote! You can see the finals game below. Tune in tomorrow, Sunday, May 26th at 2PM (GMT -4) for the third and final one, hosted by Wooper!

Finals - BaitWiz vs budgetplayer

bracket

 

[wooper]

congratulations to asa for winning the third and final Emboar Suspect Room Tour and thus earning the right to vote! You can see the finals game below.

finals - budgetplayer vs asa

bracket

 

[estra]

rookie post, i'm here to share my thoughts about Emboar, and some other mons that I consider as brokens at the moment.


1) Regarding Emboar

I believe it's consensus at this point that Emboar is broken for the current power creep of the tier, the reasons for those were well explained by BloodAce on his post a few ones above, I identify with most of what he said regarding the big red pig, but there is some more things i'd like to compliment:

1.1. Its thunderous raw strength
You have seen it if you've played some ladder or Tournament in SV since shifts came, but sets such as Choice Band or Bulk Up (after +1) will really one shot half or more than half of most of the balanced/offense teams circulating right now. That's because those sets usually run Reckless + (Flare Blitz & Wild Charge) those 2 together boosted for reckless is already insane, but when you add the emergencial priority move Sucker Punch + the Strong Stab Close Combat, or the Sustain Provider Drain Punch it does get kinda insane. Scarf Sets are also a thing, you outspeeds basically every non-scarf if you run Adamant Scarf set, that still has almost 400 attack stat when invested into. Jolly is also there to outspeed some other slow scarfers, such as Clawitzer and Modest Hoopa . AV sets do also deserve to be mentioned (and will) below.

1.2. Its "decent" defensive stats
Initially looking at this mon, I thought it'd work good as strong breaker, with poor sustain due to not-so-good defensive stats and its sets usually being very recoil punishable, but guess what? Not necessarily! Boar features a overwhelming 110 HP stat and mediocre 65 in both Defense & Sp. Defense, however, for the ZU parameters, that combo of good HP + meh defenses is actually good. Mainly when you have some sustainable offensive sets such as BU drain punch or AV drain punch. Those sets, mainly AV , are also great because they get a extremely good MU against sun, which is being spammed in the tier at the moment.

1.3. An well-structured Emboar team is way too hard to deal with
The thing is, Emboar is pretty easy to fit in any kind of team, having most of the times a hard to identify set/item and being solid against *most* of the things on the metagame currently, it works kinda as a joker card, adapting the set it'll beat a couple specific mons you need (of course you can say that anything does that, and that's true, the thing is emboar does that and its still capable of destroy the rest of your team). I think Emboar cores still have alot to develop in, we've already been seeing alot of Boar + Mesprit , (in which you bring Boar early to open holes, and Mesprit's hwish boosts to kill everything on late game). This kind of team has proved to be broken, not because its uncounterable at all, but you'd have to run unnoptimal stuff against alot of other things in the meta in order to properly, comfortably counter it. (and that's way too much metagame centralization) I do also feel like there is even more to be discovered, making it even more unhealthy to the tier.

Conclusion
I will be voting BAN for Emboar in the ongoing Suspect-test. I believe the tier's power creep might get higher and maybe Boar won't be broken as we approach the end of SV, but for now, in my opinion, based in what I wrote above, I believe it must go.



2) The Brokens

There is also alot to be said regarding those 4, which are the ones that are broken in my concept right now. Individually speaking:

2.1. Regarding Heat Rock
Of course, when i'm saying that Heat Rock is broken, I'm referring to Sun teams. Sun teams are just kinda insane for ZU, you even see ZU sun abusers having moderate success in some tiers above such as NU for example, which by itself doesn't say that they're unbalanced, but well, they are. When sun is in field, the Chlorophyll troupe does just get way too busted. If decently positioned and played, the 7 turns in execution of sun are enough to open enormous holes into the opposing team, and most of the abusers do not have decent ways to check. You can force a switch into a Special Attack Abuser with or for example. But that wont really properly check, they just need to go to a physical abuser and/or Tera if needed. That switch-ins also hurt more than they should, realistically speaking.

2.2. Regarding Snorlax
The curselax strikes again in a tier that most wouldn't expect to see it: ZU. Well, there is not too much to be said in here other than "Lax is broken". It's not versatile as Emboar, because you'd usually want setup sets always on it (though, AV can work pretty nicely in some cores too) but knowing what it does doesn't really impede it from sweeping some decent portion of the most ran teams. After tera fairy or poison and a single curse, the fatty gets really hard to deal with. Some mons with Haze or Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail can deal with it tho, but if there is teammates to force those one or two down, or Hazards to slowly, but progressively wore them out, lax is freed to win the game at any breach.

2.3. Regarding Electrode-Hisui
This one is different from the ones I mentioned earlier above, those ones are broken because they're too strong, Trode isn't exactly strong, it is uhhhh... Annoying. Electrode-Hisui is amazingly good due to its insane offensive dual stab + Taunt, making it really hard to get hazards up. Both of its stabs are a threat to most of the viable & most used Stealth-Rockers/Spikers of the tier, such as Bombirdier , Golem , Rhydon , Avalugg-Hisui , and Qwilfish . And has taunt to make harder the life of the ones it doesn't kill or threat, and Volt Switch to pivot on the ones which are dangerous to stay in field, not letting its user loose momentum. Trode-h can also run choice specs if you wanna do some big fast damage, pretty decent too, but the taunt dual-stab pivot is the only unbalanced one in my opinion.

2.4. Regarding Uxie
Coming last, but not least important, uxie deserves a mention here. Uxie has access to insane bulk, pivoting moves, hazards, setups and amazing coverage. I've been experimenting CM Substitute Draining Kiss and Stored Power, and well... It's overpowered. It's bulk lets it setup in the face of some good portion of the mons spammed in the tier at the moment. Draining kiss after a +2 and a Tera fairy also manages to keep it healthy (and believe me, it does NOT get killed easily after that). It's also naturally pretty fast, therefore it doesn't even need invest in speed to pass some crucial stuff. I believe there is alot more to be discovered, some bulky pivot coverage sets with Shadow Ball for example has been appearing lately, already, and there is probably even more to develop. It's kinda reliable on tera just like lax, but if you manage to get into a favorable situation, teraing with it might win the game

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Those are my thoughts, thank you all for reading (or trying to) my post wrote with my not-even-near-good english! XD​

 

[fish anemometer]

Mons on my radar and some other cool techs:
Emboar comes with some healthy aspects of checking broken cheese playstyles, trading with and killing frailer sweeper mons, or finishing them off with sucker. However, this comes at the cost of shredding every non (who gets nailed by eq) balance, as our pre-tera fire resists aren't really tanky or get sent to the shadow realm from its fighting stab. Is that a bad thing though? It is a manageable pokemon, and all its diverse sets generally have the same counterplay... Its defensive profile would be missed. And I really don't think its ever the scariest mon at preview currently. So it sucks that it was the first immediately obvious broken mon. The teambuilding and speed tier overcentralization aspect is insane though, and in practice it kills multiple times v often. Maybe L2p moment and i'm voting under the assumption that we will ban the more broken stuff, I'm slightly leaning ban... Here are some nice offensive checks tho, that honestly make me question if that was the right decision, as many of them include top tier mons: (dazzling) ok not many more maybe ban is right... idk...

- Sun is really dumb and demands a high spdef fire resist or tera dragon+priority or an extra check to beat. Would definitely like tiering action on this. Has some autolose mu's if the opponent does run the aforementioned counterplay though. And ditto - a pokemon who's usage historically signified healthy metagames....
- Grassy terrain has proven very deadly, I wouldn't mind action just unsure on what. Would nerfing it to grookey make Driflblim/oris and the psychics any less cheap?
This is usually the mon that has you the most scared on preview. NP+Dkiss tera fairy is CHEAP! So fat and muscles through so easily.
Arguably the best mon rn. Nothing stops it from pivoting on your team and dropping some big leaf storms. Boots makes it almost impossible to chip.
Not convinced it's broken yet. I think it's pretty easy to tell from the teambuilder if your team loses to this. The most unhealthy aspect of snorlax is body slam paralysis. That might actually be broken on snorlax, since it can cripple stuff coming in to beat it.
Another contender for best mon in the tier. Fits like a glove on every team despite some 4mss, but can fill so many roles very well. You need very good justification to not use it.
For now its checked by Trode and Jolteon outspeeding even scarfed versions. It can really spam tera blast fairy some games tho.
Webs are really potent rn with the state of removal and can be a flexible playstyle with checks for many top threats. Leavanny gets triple axel to scare out bombirdier, as well as a speed tier and typing that is pretty conveniant for the meta, resisting trode stabs.
this thing is super dumb lol, sleeper pick for a ban but i wouldn't mind it going. Maybe I'm a noob but critdra often does so much work.
if you predict right it has no switch ins. Does have to consider weakening its coverage to dazzling through sucker punches though.
- some misc. mons that I haven't seen discussed very much but are very very good and can win games on their own.
sand fucks.

Ty for reading, enjoy ZU!

 

[Tuthur]

Emboar has been banned from SV ZU following its suspect test! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-zu-3-emboar.3744241/post-10133783

 

[Tuthur]

Following massive community outcry regarding the sun archetype and it losing its most common offensive check in Emboar, the council has voted to take action on sun.

	Outcome	Danny	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	Monai	OranBerryBlissey10	Tuthur	wooper
Sun	Action	action	Action	action		Action	Action	Action	action

We then ranked by preference, three options: ban Vulpix, ban Scovillain, and ban Scovillain + Lilligant; in the same fashion as OU suspect tested Terastallization.

	Outcome	Danny	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	Monai	OranBerryBlissey10	Tuthur	wooper
Prefered option	Ban Vulpix	ban pix	Ban Scovillain and Lilligant	Scovillain+lilligant	Ban Vulpix	Ban Pix	Ban Vulpix	Scovillain + Lilligant	Scovillian
Second prefered option		ban scovillain+lilligant	Ban Vulpix	vulpix	Ban Scov	Scov	Ban Scovillain	Vulpix	Vulpix
Least prefered option		ban scovillain	Ban Scovillain	scovillain	Ban Scov + Lilli	Scov Lilli	Ban Scov + Lilli (erm why are people unironically voting for this)	Scovillain	Scov + Lilli

With 5 council members preferring banning Vulpix over Scovillain + Lilligant, and 7 preferring to ban Vulpix over only Scovillain, out of 8 council members, Vulpix is now banned from SV ZU. Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please implement on Pokemon Showdown!

 

[BaitWiz]

With Emboar being removed and sun being neutered, the door seems wide open for all sorts of new threats to take their place. What most people are wondering now, though, is who the heck am I gonna break with now that Emboar’s gone?

Breakers in ZU

Hoopa’s one of the strongest special attackers that has ever existed in ZU, arguably the strongest with a mind-boggling 150 Special Attack and Nasty Plot to boost its offenses into overdrive. Its STAB combo is also fairly effective into everything except dark types, with Psyshock threatening serious damage even to the mighty Snorlax and Shadow Ball hitting basically everything that isn’t Normal- or Dark-type for a ton of damage. Focus Blast acts as coverage for Dark-type Pokemon, but Hoopa can also go a step further with Tera Fairy, which allows it to resist common Knock Off and Foul Play attempts aimed at it and flip the tables on the Dark-types that scare it out so frequently.

While Kingdra isn’t quite in the same league as Hoopa in terms of power, it’s got plenty to bring to the table itself; whether dropping Draco Meteors with a Choice Specs, powering itself up with Focus Energy, or donning a Choice Band and slamming teams with Wave Crash and Outrage, Kingdra is adept at blowing holes into unprepared teams through its set variety. The biggest issue Kingdra runs into is longevity, as it’s choiced sets get forced out by resists or faster threats and take hazard damage. Physical sets also have to deal with recoil from Wave Crash, further reducing longevity.

Eggy Alola’s the strongest user of Draco Meteor in the tier, a trait that’s invaluable when you realize just how few viable Fairy-type Pokémon we have in the tier (pre tera, anyway). It’s coverage is also fantastic - with Leaf Storm as an equally spammable secondary STAB, Flamethrower to hit Steel-types, and Sludge Bomb to hit those pesky Fairy-types, Eggy’s got all the tools it needs to shred teams with solid prediction or enough switches. The biggest issues Eggy has is the aforementioned reliance on solid prediction and the fact that it’s quite slow, clocking in at a measly base 45 Speed.

Let’s get some more physical breakers in the picture, eh? Glastrier’s amazing Attack combine with stellar coverage and Choice Band/Swords Dance to make one of the most lethal physically offensive breakers in the tier. Glastrier’s ability to shred apart threats is remarkable; it’s also extremely bulky to boot, able to take a hit or two when necessary, and if it gets a boost with Chilling Neigh before being taken to low health it can straight up trade 2:1.

Haven’t seen this guy in a minute, now have we? With Emboar taking its spotlight, Toxicroak’s been lurking in the shadows, but with the pig now gone Toxicroak now has a chance to return as both a Swords Dance and Nasty Plot breaker. It doesn’t have the same level of immediate power as another Fighting-type I’ll be mentioning in a moment, but it’s Fighting/Poison STAB combination is quite difficult for the tier to switch into, especially when combined with Croak’s choice of Sucker Punch or Earthquake last.

A lot of people would probably say that I should’ve mentioned Passimian before Toxicroak, which is fair, but Passimian’s far more prediction reliant than Toxicroak, with its Choice Band set being the main way it breaks teams - Choice Scarf is a great set as well, but tends to be better for conserving momentum and chipping away at teams rather than outright breaking. Passimian’s probably the main Fighting-type threat for immediate power.

This is the last breaker I’ll mention here - Bruxish’s excellent Water/Psychic STAB combination is quite difficult to switch into, especially since Flip Turn still deals a sizeable chunk to anything that doesn’t resist it, and Psychic Fangs is a positively brutal attack to switch into due to being boosted by Strong Jaw. While Bruxish falls into the same prediction-reliant camp as Passimian, it makes for a brutal adversary when paired other Voltturn teammates like Electrode-H and the aforementioned Passimian.

There’s quite a few wallbreakers I’ve left off of this list, as I mostly wanted to focus on higher-tiered threats. I also excluded mons that are best under unique field conditions like Charizard under Sun. Nonetheless, there’s plenty of excellent Pokémon in the tier that can create progress, and hopefully this post helps people fill the sizeable gap left in their teams by Emboar’s removal from the tier.

 

[Tuthur]

SV ZU is conducting a tiering survey, giving us a last chance to hold tiering actions before ZUPL. Here is the link to the SURVEY. Make sure to fill it within the next week.

 

[Tuthur]

Time to breakdown tiering survey results,

Electrode-Hisui gathered an average score of 3.55. This is a very high score, and the ZU council will keep an eye on Electrode. No tiering action is planned in the near future on it, as other threats were deemed to be bigger priorities and Kilowrattel having high chances to drop and bring a Volt Switch immunity that resists Grass means we want to give it more time.

Hoopa gathered an average score of 2.82, this is a bit high, but not enough to consider Hoopa a priority. Tiering actions aren't planned in an immediate future.

Kingdra gathered an average score of 3.21, this is also quite high, and council has decided to suspect Kingdra, the thread will be up shortly after this one, with all the reasoning behind it.

Uxie gathered an average score of 3.8, this is very high, and the council has decided to quickban it. Some comments both in the survey and in council mentionned that Alcremie and Mesprit could easily replace Uxie at its role, so we'll be keeping an eye on those two.

Grassy Terrain gathered an average score of 2.76, this is quite a low score, especially since one of the most common complain about terrain was Uxie.

Snorlax was mentionned 7 times in the survey, which makes us want to open an eye on it, despite not seeing it as an immediate threat.

tldr: Uxie is banned, Kingdra is being suspect tested, Electrode-Hisui, Mesprit, Alcremie, and Snorlax will be watched carefuly. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement the Uxie ban from SV ZU on the PS! Thank you!

edit: Vulpix is also unbanned, because NU banned Drought.