Metagame NP ZU Stage 11: Jaws - October Shifts @ #12

[Tuthur]

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Bruxish has been getting a lot of traction as ZU premier Choice Scarf user. With access to a very powerful STAB move with no downside in Strong Jaw boosted Psychic Fang, a STAB pivot move in Flip Turn, and a solid Speed tier putting it ahead of other Choice Scarf users like Passimian and Mesprit, it is one of the most reliable offensive pivot and revenge killer in the tier. Its power can't be overstated with its ability to OHKO neutral foes like Electrode-Hisui and its STAB combination being unresisted beside fringe options in Cacturne and Shiftry, that still have to fear Poison Fang and Ice Fang, and tera Dark Poliwrath and Toxicroak, that get OHKOed by Psychic Fangs pre-tera.

Bruxish is over hindered by its lackluster bulk meaning it struggles to switch into anything that isn't a resisted move, and still gets chipped quite fast between Wave Crash recoil and hazards, as Spikes are quite common and most Bruxish can't afford to run Heavy-Duty Boots or they are outsped by threats such as Sneasel and Electrode-Hisui. Bruxish is also weak to the most common priority move in the tier in Sucker Punch, keeping it in check, unless it opts for Dazzling, meaning that it is much weaker. With that in mind, bulky Psychic resists such as Orthworm, Hisuian Qwilfish, Mesprit, and Alolan Persian have proven themselves great way to limit Bruxish's progress.

One key aspect of Choice Scarf Bruxish is that it has similar power to a wallbreaker, while still outspeeding the whole tier. This makes playing around this set quite hard, as getting in your slow physical wall into Bruxish clicking Flip Turn opens the door to Bruxish teammates, and is especially a good entry point for very powerful attackers like Typhlosion, Virizion, and Charizard that can take advantage of the aforementioned walls. It should also be noted that while Bruxish does take Spikes damage, its checks also don't have a reliable recovery and get similarly chipped by the combination of hits and entry hazards. Moreover, while Choice Scarf is Bruxish most common and best set, other sets such as Choice Band and Swords Dance can take advantage of Bruxish insane wallbreaking capacities at the cost of better offensive pivot traits, and need to be respected, as considering Bruxish as a Flip Turn machine is not accurate.

• You have to reach a COIL of 2920 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ZUJAW. For example, I might signup with the ladder account ZUJAW Tuthur.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• The aspect being tested, Bruxish, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for about 11 days, lasting until Friday 16th August at 11:00 PM GMT+2 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[Tuthur]

After more discussions, we've changed the suspect test format to COIL based. The numbers picked are COIL: 2920, and b = 4.

GXE	Number of games
86	17
85	18
84	19
83	22
82	23
81	27
80	31
79	35
78	42
77	52
76	69
75	103
74	204

 

[LettuceLeaf07]

My gut reaction to this is that Bruxish isn't broken. It's stabs are great coverage, but it isn't too difficult to predict around them with multiple mons left or a good defensive tera. I feel like I haven't really struggled against Bruxish, but it could just be me.

I've found Bruxish can be checked well by physical walls like Dipplin and dark Qwilfish, or with a Tera to resist a predictable super-effective move. Most physical walls I use can wall Bruxish in some capacity. Most Bruxish are not giving up Crunch to lose to other Bruxish, so psychic types don't wall it without tera.

I started looking into other scarfers besides Bruxish, and a pretty long /dt search showed that yeah, there isn't a common viable scarfer that outspeeds Bruxish, bar maybe Typhlosion but that feels like it shouldn't count. I mean, you can technically run scarf Shaymin or Mismagius, but are those really viable? And then there's stuff like Primeape or Raichu-a that theoretically work, and I can't tell if they're underexplored or just bad, but I haven't seed them used either way.

Obviously this is bound to change through the suspect, but currently I think Bruxish is just a good top-tier mon. I don't find myself specifically forgetting/adding Bruxish checks when building or worrying about playing around it too much in game. If the vote was today, I'd be DNB.


Also, if I had a nickel every time a base 100-ish attack forgettable psychic-water fish from an odd numbered generation with an ability that makes its moves 1.5x stronger made a tera-dark water immune mon viable, then valuting veluzas i'd have 2 nickels lol. (this is a joke i feel like prime Veluza was harder to check than Bruxish now)

 

[sinnabyss]

K finally made reqs so i wanna post my thoughts here on Brux


Brux doesnt immediately feel broken in my eyes, it struggles to break past bulky mons, it gets worn down by spikes and recoil super fast, and really doesnt feel too oppressive in battle. Surprise teras can really screw over the Brux user and it does help check some dumb setup threats like Frosmoth and Sneasel.

However, Brux is quite suffocating in teambuilding. No other viable Choice Scarf users bar like Grafaiai outspeed it, it has some quite specific checks like Hwilfish and Dipplin that don't fit on every team, and it really limits offensive mons that cant beat Brux one-on-one. Plus, it enables a bunch of other mons like Typhlosion and Helectrode to be kinda stupid, and with spikes and our nonexistant hazard removal, Bruxish can kinda just spam Flip Turn and wear its checks down while bringing in its teammates.

I personally will probably vote DNB, as i feel Bruxish adds more to the tier than what it limits, but im not particularly against it getting banned either.

also some free teams i used to get reqs:
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[estra]

Writing my thoughts on bruxish here, also gonna say some general impressions I have on the current SV ZU metagame

1. Regarding Bruxish

I'm inclined to vote BAN for now, but my opinion is still very volatile. I don't think Bruxish is broken by itself, but more like a really good and flexible Pokémon. Choice Item sets are really solid, with Scarf being the supreme combination of speed control and firepower, that plus it being able to keep momentum by pivoting with Flip Turn is great in mostly all squads. Band is similar, but it trades most of the speed control capabilities for even more power, still keeps some, though, as banded Aqua Jet is still capable of taking some stuff down, mainly after Terastallization to Water in emergency cases. Some other sets such as Swords Dance Heavy-Duty Boots or Mystic Water are also pretty nice occasionally, as they do get decent numbers and can surprise the opponent.

So, if I don't think that Bruxish is broken, why am I inclined to vote BAN?

The issue is that: A good comp with bruxish can be broken, somewhat. If I ask what are the best checks for Bruxish, the answer will most likely be stuff like Orthworm, Qwilfish-Hisui and Dipplin, right? That's where the problem resides, all of those mons are hazard weak, so, if a Bruxish comp can manage to keep hazards up, its checks will be in a timer or constantly taking more damage that they can recover without giving giant breaches, in case of the ones that can recover, such as Dipplin.

So, in conclusion, if you don't want to run a unset or a low ranked mon to specifically check Bruxish, and that doesn't do much if you don't load it into the right matchup, it's checks are always in a timer due to entry hazards added to opposing team pressuring decently. Would love to read more posts in this thread, I wanna hear ya'all opinions on it, as well as arguments that sustain your viewpoints.


2. Regarding the SV ZU metagame

This will be shorter, probably, because I don't have much to talk here. I'm not really enjoying the current state of the Meta right now, but I don't really know how to fix it either. I think the tier still needs some stuff out, and maybe we can hope for some stuff in that would make it better, I will not elaborate a lot here but some stuff that are on my radar right now:

2.1. Typhlosion
This mon is crazy. Very fast and really powerful, Scarf or HDB be it, its speed tier will always be good. I think it is heavily favoured by mons such as Electrode-Hisui and Bruxish being spammed right now, as well as some spinners that suffer against it, would like to hear what ya'all have to say on it too.

2.2. Electrode-Hisui
This guy was already on my Emboar post from months ago, and I'm still kinda wondering on why is it still around, having talked to a lot of other people that also do want to see it gone. I guess people got attached. Not really elaborating here because everybody knows what does this do, outspeeds some Scarf Pokemon, does nice damage, taunts and pivots.

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Thanks ya'all for reading!

 

[Tuthur]

Bruxish has been banned!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-zu-5-bruxish.3749282/post-10231984

 

[Tuthur]

Hey, I wanted to share a fair bit of my thoughts on the metagame. While it hasn't been much time since last ban, there has been a consensus that the metagame had problems beyond Bruxish. Many have complained about needing to handpick the resists they use and certain threats being too good.


This Pokémon has been broken for a while, if Kingdra and Bruxish didn't both prove to be more broken, this would have already been suspect tested and booted from the tier. Our grounds, beside barely viable Toedscruel and Camerupt, are unable to take a Leaf Storm, it outspeeds everything unboosted, and even Choice Scarf users like Mesprit and Passimian. It was already a pretty stupid momentum machine, allowing for many threats to freely come in, but without Choice Scarf Bruxish to offensively pressure it, I'm worried it will become much worse.


With offensive sets being experimented more, it's clear that Scrappy Triple Arrow is completely broken. The amount of RNG you need to haxx through slower resists isn't even that big, especially if you can get a Swords Dance up. It is a real shame, because Hecidueye is the best Defog user in the tier and its pivot sets are really healthy in my opinion.


I know there has been a lot of complain about this Pokémon recently, but tbh I think its power is overstated. Choice Specs Eruption is for sure a nuke, but Typhlosion needs good support for it. Any damage will cut its power significantly, meaning you need to get Typhlosion through doubles or pivoting, with hazards off. Without Bruxish (and hopefully Helectrode), this is not an easy task. Typhlosion is a really good Pokemon, but it is not broken imo, just a great breaker that needs quite a lot of support and has really hard matchup like Snorlax. I'm much more worried about Charizard with its superior typing and set variety.

How do you feel about these threats? Is there anything else you'd want to spark discussion on? How would you feel about ZU council shifting back from suspect tests to quickly sort out these issues?

 

[Welcome to mars]

do you people remember late 2023? When hazard stack restricted the near to an unhealthy extent? Its time for a comeback, and maybe even a reunion

im starting to notice that mespirit and qwilfish (johtoian or hisuian) form a incredible core and can spread hazards since defoggers and spinners are being challenged more and more in this meta

Here is a preview of what is about to COME
we might furret back

 

[Tuthur]

We held a council vote on the three most controversial Pokemon in the tier. As a result, Electrode-Hisui has been quickbanned from SV ZU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to please implement the ban. Thank you.

	Outcome	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	Monai	OranBerryBlissey10	Tuthur	wooper
Electrode-Hisui	Ban	ban	ban	ban	dnb	dnb	ban	ban
Typhlosion	DNB	ban	dnb	dnb	dnb	dnb	dnb	dnb
Decidueye-Hisui	DNB	ban	dnb	dnb	dnb	dnb	ban	dnb

 

[LettuceLeaf07]

With 100% of last month's speed control banned, there are definitely going to be some shake-ups in the meta. Any scarfer with base 83 speed or lower no longer has to worry about H-Trode outspeeding it, and the ground types no longer have to coinflip dying to grass or blocking that volt switch. With that, I thought it'd go over some winners and losers before my class starts.

Winners:

Passimian
If Typhlosion somehow becomes easier to resist and isn't considered broken by time the next suspect (or qb) rolls around, I'm calling it, this will be the most oppressive mon in the tier. Pass is a fast pivot, fighting-type, knock, earthquaker, and momentum machine that was really held back by 100% of last month's speed control dunking on it. I think this mon can be top-tier without those restrictions, if not overbearing. It's slow enough to where I think we can find counterplay to it, however, but

These Electrics
No trode? No problem. We have: The viable one who may not be able to hit ground types but can become a setup sweeper, funny scarf option who no longer has to get chipped by trode and brux, probably a really good scarfer with volt and trick, and a C+ that has surf to hit ground types sometimes. Except for Jolteon, these were mostly fringe options, but they've already started to see a resurgence on ladder. Edit: Rai is also one of the top 4 most viable special water types in the tier, next to basc, swanna, and cram


If you are going to run Bruxish Model 0.75, run this and not Basculin, who doesn't have a coverage move to save its life, unless you want to lightly tap the opponent. Floatzel has a higher attack stat and Ice Spinner. You also don't need to run scarf if you don't care about outspeeding Whimsicott and Jolteon (or other scarfs) because it's so fast.


Funny idea, but I have this double dance golduck set I've been running for way too long that was completely unviable, but I think it's time to bring it back from the shadow realm. In all seriousness, The absence of trode gives rain a shot. Will it be good? lol no sun is only C-tier rn, but hey, who knows lol


Imo this was the worst sr setter that was viable, but now it's an elec immunity! Wooo! I'm too lazy to see if it's even worth using over regirock or the other grounds with the same type of stat spread, so someone else can calc it (or me later idk but prob not)

Losers:

Grass
Imo, the best part of running a grass type was to resist both electric and grass from trode. I loved using both of these mons because they were able to comfortably switch into it and resist whatever Electrode wanted to do. Neither of these suck now since the no-tera-trode-resist was just a bonus, but they are notably weak to Jolteon's favorite coverage move called Alluring Voice, which is definitely a hit to them.

Hazards
Rotom and Passimian are here, and between trick+ghost and knock off, this is going to change how hazards are in the tier. There wasn't really a top-tier knocker outside of Mesprit, so having two mons that can restrict common ways around hazards is going to be... fun...

 

[Michael Jordan]

Some cool cores I've been spamming recently.

/ - -

Zard/typhlosion are busted rn, the fire resists we have dont like coming in on them much. H-decid provides pivoting and hazard control, also beating snorlax/forcing it to tera, whereas lanturn provides a check to the busted fires, jolteon, and can force out rock types.

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Probably the best defog deterrent+ spin blocker combo in the tier. mismagius beats alot of the passimian checks and passimian beats alot of the ghost immunes/resists.

 

[wooper]

for those who missed it!

Toxicroak moved from ZU to NU

Brute Bonnet moved from PU to ZU
Delphox moved from PU to ZU
Froslass moved from PU to ZU
Hariyama moved from PU to ZU
Lycanroc moved from PU to ZU

 

[Sputnik]

Have been trying out some of the new Pokemon, here are some impressions


This thing feels absolutely wild and bluntly just not healthy in the slightest, its STAB combo is great for the meta and with Psyshock it invalidates a lot of special walls. With Nasty Plot it becomes extremely threatening to bulky builds, and it has a solid speed tier that allows it to threaten offense as well. It has the capability to force a lot of switches, as it has a handy Fighting-resist that allows it to come in on Passimian or Medicham locked into Close Combat, as well as forcing out the new Hariyama and Hisuian Decidueye. It can also fit Encore to really dumpster defense with its Nasty Plot set, or Tera Blast with a Tera type of your choice to pick and choose its answers. I could be wrong but this thing feels like it's gonna put a ton of strain on the meta and might need some action sooner rather than later.


This thing is actually quite cool as far as offensive mons go, it's extremely slow but with Sucker Punch you can overcome this vs. offense, and it can fit Synthesis to stay healthy when faced with a slower team. It's STAB combo is actually quite good so it doesn't really have to run coverage to be dangerous, allowing it to fit both of the aforementioned moves. It's kind of a Tera hog because its typing is very abusable, but with Tera Fairy it becomes quite hard for many teams to reliably take down. I've been running Booster Energy but other items are certainly possible.

 

[estra]

Post about the metagame state right now, giving my opinion on shifts + some info that ladder is giving me.

The shifts gave us: Delphox, Hariyama, Lycanroc, Froslass, and Brute Bonnet, and took: Toxicroak.

The "Go-Duo"
From talking to other people and laddering, my very first thought is that Delphox and Hariyama are very highly QB Worthy. Here are some common sets for Delphox, and Here are some for Hariyama. It's somewhat easy to understand why those mons are too much for the tier, being Delphox a just better Fire-type in general than both Typhlosion and Charizard, who are two considered great and very oppresive in the tier already, being top ranked in the ZU VR and having their own discussion on if they're healthy for the tier, which makes it obvious that a more powerful and with better coverage Fire in Delphox is not. Similarly, Hariyama does also seem like way too powerful in many ways, having a lot of sets and coverage options, that alongside with Terastallization can overwhelm most of its supposed checks, and also being able to still farm in PU according to my sources, it does seem like it would be too easy for it in ZU. Although Hariyama doesn't really outclass anything used right now, as the most used Fighting-types right now in Hisuian Decidueye and Passimian having different functions and/or offering utility, Hariyama seems like a way better option than Pokémon that aren't really used anymore such as Gurdurr, but that still have some potential. The Yama debate is more open that Delphox's for sure, but by its sets being somewhat unpredictable and it being too tanky and powerful, I don't think it should be kept in the tier for long.

The "Stay-Trio"
Differently from Hariyama and Delphox, the other drops in Lycanroc, Froslass and Brute Bonnet do not seem like unhealthy additions to the metagame at all, and should be all 3 pretty good Pokémon, but far from being broken. Froslass gave us our very first dedicated Spikes Suicide Lead, with a fast Taunt, access to Destiny Bound and Thunder Wave and the hazard move. Removal ain't really dire in the tier as our legit best Pokémon is a Defog user in Hisuian Decidueye, and it shouldn't make the competition with Spikes unfair because of that (plus Heavy-Duty Boots exist). Offensive sets do also have some potential, mainly SpA based ones, I would say, because Physical Attack based ones feel like Sneasel but worse in paper. Similarly to Froslass, Lycanroc in PU was mostly used as a Suicide Lead with Stealth Rock and access to fast Taunt, Priority STAB in Accelerock and Endeavor. In ZU, however, there is potential to be explored in general offensive sets, such as the ones in Here barring the lead, potential to be broken seems pretty low since most of the defensive Pokémon in the tier shouldn't have trouble dealing with it. Closing the trio, we have Brute Bonnet, the first Paradox Pokémon to drop to ZU ever, which by itself is a powerful Pokémon with decent coverage and many utility options that shown in Here. However, it's bad defensive typing really throws it levels down, and that makes it tricky to use in current ZU, which is very heavy in U-turns and a lot of Fighting- and Fire-types are top ranked and have no big trouble dealing with it.

I personally really like the metagame right now, and I think this shift gave us some interesting stuff to play with in the ones I defined as the Stay Trio. With Delphox and Hariyama out, I think the tier is getting slightly more balanced by having Lycanroc to pressure Fire-types, Froslass as a Speed Control option and a good lead for Hyper Offense teams, and Brute Bonnet as a balanced fraud breaker that can delete some of the popular defensive walls in the metagame. Anyone else posting? :D

 

[Tuthur]

Hi, after a week of playtesting, the ZU council decided to vote on Delphox, Hariyama, and plznostep's gifs.

	Outcome	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	Monai	OranBerryBlissey10	Tuthur	wooper
Delphox	Ban	Ban	ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	ban
Hariyama	Ban	Ban	ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	DNB	DNB
plznostep gifs	Ban	Ban	dnb	Ban	Perma	BANBANBAN	Ban	keep zu

As many said, Charizard and Typhlosion already are some of the best Pokémon in the tier, and Delphox is a faster version of them, with the ability to target special walls with Psyshock and boosts its damage with Nasty Plot on top of being naturally stronger. It was obviously far too strong for the tier and earned its spot on the banlist.

While not as threatening looking as Delphox, Hariyama's set versatility and insane stats made it really hard to take down. Belly Drum set can easily clean up, while Bulk Up sets can be very hard to take out, and Flame Orb sets are insane wallbreakers. Overall it was just too good for the tier.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please implement Delphox's and Hariyama's bans from SV ZU please, thank you!

 

[Michael Jordan]

Some more cool cores I've been spamming:



Nice balance core which blanket checks a majority of the tier, Dipplin on the physical side and Cuno on the special. Not too passive due to their ability to phase. Struggles with Charizard without teraing Cuno, so pair with a sturdy fire resist like Regirock. Also use with spikes to further abuse the phasing aspect, and a knock off mon to get rid of HDBs.


Another core that blanket checks a majority of the tier, aside from our fighting types, but with tera you can overcome that.


An offensive core here, Charizard beats Floatzel checks such as Decidueye-H and Dipplin, whereas Floatzel beats Charizard checks like Regirock. The mons that can check them both, such as Lanturn will get weakened by one allowing the other to break through.

/
Whiscash sets up hazards which these offensive poisons appreciate, where as Qwilfish and Sneasel-h are able to threaten out the grass types people lead in attempt to prevent hazards from going up.


Alolan Exeggutor sets up trick room and is able to pivot into Glastrier with Eject Pact + Draco Meteor, allowing it to abuse 3 turns of Trick Room. Often the Draco leaves the opposing pokemon weak enough for Glastrier to easily get the Chilling Neigh boost, or if the opponent switches get a free Swords Dance off.


Light clay is ban but Aurora Veil is still legit. Obviously only getting 5 turns isn't enough for a full dedicated Veil team, but just these 2 on a standard offense is really cool. Veil + Snow + Ice scales makes Frosmoth insanely bulky, allowing it to set up and clean up late game.