Metagame NP ZU Stage 10: Down with the King - Unburden ban and Thwackey unban #18

[Tuthur]

​

Kingdra received a high score in the latest ZU tiering survey. While it got a lower vote than Electrode-Hisui, their scores were quite similar and the ZU council agreed that Kingdra was more problematic. Kingdra is very versatile with many sets that require different counterplays as they can be special like physical, setup to boost its damage and speed, and pivot. Its STAB combination is also unresisted in the tier, with Dragon being a particularly hard type to switch into due to a lack of viable Fairy- and Steel-types outside Tera users in the tier, while defensively its above average bulk and lack of common weaknesses mean it can find many opportunities to threaten the opposing team.

Despite its high flexibility, Kingdra has many flaws. First, its strongest moves are hard to spam due to their drawback. Locking into Outrage opens to being revenge killed, Draco Meteor leaves Kingdra vulnerable after use if it didn't have a Focus Energy up, Wave Crash weakens Kingdra which in conjuction with damage taken during the turn it used Dragon Dance can put in range of revenge killers. Also guessing Kingdra's set wrong isn't always deadly, generally bulky threats such as Dudunsparce, Alcremie, and Snorlax can get heavily crippled in the process but will most often than be able to scout Kingdra's set rather safely. Most of the tier can also hit Kingdra for neutral damage, so while its defensive profile is quite good, one should not overestimate Kingdra's ability to stay healthy, and avoid damage and status.

Revenge killing Kingdra can often be quite a challenge though, as it outspeeds common Choice Scarf users like Passimian, Hoopa, and Mesprit, as well as Electrode-Hisui after Agility or Dragon Dance. Lum Berry has been a good option in conjuction to Rest for allowing Kingdra to maintain healthy on Dragon Dance sets, while the sheer power of Sniper crit Draco Meteor is very hard to take without using Snorlax.

• ***WE ARE USING A NEW METHOD FOR SUSPECT REQS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. We will be trialing a new method for reqs that does NOT utilize GXE. Instead, the voting requirements are that you achieve an 80% winrate with a minimum of 32 games won. For example, a record of 32 wins to 8 losses is an 80% winrate which totals at 40 games overall, thus you would qualify for reqs with this. A record of 32-0 would also qualify for reqs, and is the minimum amount of games that can be played to qualify. There is NO maximum game limit, so you may take as many games as you need to achieve reqs as long as you arrive at an 80% winrate. For example, a record of 46 wins to 11 losses would also qualify me for reqs, as 80% of 57 is 46 wins.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ZUDRA. For example, I might signup with the ladder account ZUDRA Tuthur.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• The aspect being tested, Kingdra, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for about 12 days, lasting until Thursday 27th June at 11:00 PM GMT+2 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[wooper]

fine, i'll bite!


i think it's pretty much universally understood that kingdra should go. i havent seen a single person arguing no ban (if i've missed it im sorry!), so it feels pretty cut-and-dry. its set versatility and its power once it's set up is nearly unstoppable, despite its choice-locked sets being extremely healthy options for the tier.

set versatility means each version has a different set of answers, and if you guess wrong, youve given it too much momentum. critdra is just an absolute powerhouse that blows through teams, especially if you can get behind a sub or get to +2 speed with agility. i've even seen kingdra with flash cannon to hit alcremie and tera fairy mons meant to answer it. dd sets are similar, but even those have variations: is it outrage or scale shot? is it iron head or rest last? steel coverage can devastatingly ruin your answer, and then you just get mowed down.

even if you do guess the set correctly, you then have to get past kingdra's offensive prowess and surpassable bulk, its ability to tera out of a bad type matchup, and its likeliness to boost its speed. with an excellent base 95, it outspeeds at +1 hisui electrode and common scarfers like passimian and mesprit. i've even ran critdra with agility and enough speed to still outpace jolteon if i have webs on my field after an agility, and can marginally invest in further bulk.

i didnt get reqs im bad but i would vote ban.


a lot of folks want alcremie gone, and im inclined to agree with them. again, this monsters set variability can make it hard to handle. calm mind is a given, and then for fairy stab you run either draining kiss or alluring voice (dont run gleam it's outclassed now), stored power, and either acid armor (if kiss) or recover (if voice). cremie sets up so, so easily with max hp and max defense, and either tera poison (to block toxic and super effective poison-type moves) at the expense of being weak to mesprit and hoopa or tera steel (for the aforementioned reason and for super effective steel-type moves also) for a better defensive typing at the cost of now not answering fighting-types like passimian and primeape. no matter which combinations you choose, cremie will always put in work.

its ability neuters attempts to taunt, encore, or even heal block it (meaning psychic noise is not a path to success), so it sets up with impunity. even uninvested, 110 base spatk and 121 base spdef make you a formidable foe, which then get bolstered by calm mind until you win. its item slot is flexible too: leftovers and boots are standard i'd say, but even covert cloak has its merit to 1v1 foes fishing for paralysis with snorlax or dudunsparce body slams, spdef drops with psychic, etc.

the best counterplay i've seen is passive walls like articuno with haze that get the job done slowly, slowly, slowly, or to hazard stack and have a phazer in the back (after youve its boots, if applicable), but the latter requires taking hits because of roar and whirlwind's negative priority. ive found myself opting for tera steel on a LOT of mons in hopes of stopping its sweeps short, but that doesnt always work, especially when it can just keep boosting and smack you with stored power. i guess tricking it a choice item works too, but it's often telegraphed and therefore not the most reliable.

how have you all been handling alcremie in your experience, if at all?


last, i wanted to bring up snorlax. sitting as our sole s-rank mon, snorlax is similar to alcremie in that it functions as a defensive wincon with curse, body slam, rest, and a coverage move. earlier in the meta it ran heat crash last, but i dont find that all that useful any longer. i find that lax is pretty health in the current state of the meta, personally. i think it's exploitable prior to setup by strong physical attackers and wallbreakers, even with one or two curses under its belt; tera poison, fairy, and ghost can all be quite predictable and therefore played around; and its passivity, particularly once it clicks rest, makes it even more easy to handle.

however, it can certainly snowball and be unstoppable at times, but a good player should know to prevent this from occuring. counterplay to lax is similar to that of cremie—haze, phaze, and trick all work nicely—but taunt, encore, and heal block work this time, making it even less of a struggle to answer. the threat of body slam paralysis is real though—as is the damage off its base 110 attack, even uninvested—so you should never underestimate it.

what are your thoughts on lax's current role in the metagame?

 

[5Dots]

Will put some 15 min thoughts into this:


OK I know i stated i was going to post thoughts on these mons like a week ago but Kingdra IMO deserves to go. Kingdra base stats seem just okay at first but Terastalization and the set variety benefits this thing to a huge level. The offensive typing has almost no resistances aside from Articuno/Cryo or situational defensive answers like Tera Steel Poliwrath or Tera Steel Lanturn. Dragon Dance and CritDra share different checks and team preview isn't an immediate indication of the set it uses. The fact that it can blast through solid defensive answers like Snorlax and Alcremie with Tera Steel or take out revenge killers like Sneasels and Hisuian Electrode is worrisome. A single wrong guess on the set and it will be a nightmare to stop. There's never been a game in my laddering experience that Kingdra did nothing at all since it always found entry points against weak walls (Pretty much every Ground-type, but the list grows with Special sets, which includes Qwilfish formes and Orthworm). Healing Wish and paralysis support isn't too hard to give on this thing either - considering the three most common users of Healing Wish (Lilligant, Mesprit, Shaymin) are excellent Pokemon outside of support and can play offensive roles well themselves. Paralysis support is even easier and more flexible to fit on teams considering status is impossibe to rid of (unless you're using the awful Chimecho) and para support is rather commonplace.

In terms of best set to worst sets I've used, the best set I believe is standard CritDra. You'll outpace all conventional Scarf users at +2 and a lot of special walls don't enjoy taking its STAB combos, with the exception of Snorlax and (as mentioned above) Tera Steel Poliwrath/Lanturn. Its bulk is serviceable enough to consistently outlive things like Hisuian Electrode and Dodrio, and it only takes a resisted pivot move or two for even non-Crit Draco Meteors to render them ineffective. Dragon Dance sets are second for me; setting up isn't too hard but wasting a Lum Berry early to a stray Poison or paralysis can shorten its longevity a lot. Quite a lot of Pokemon have ways of softening its blows or wearing it down faster (Qwilfish formes, Sandaconda, Snorlax's huge HP). Specs is nice for the surprise factor and can free up a slot for Flip Turn pivoting, but the lack of ways to boost Speed downplay its biggest strength, late-game potential. It also feels more vulnerable to wallbreakers/revenge killers that can pick it off after seeing what move it chose. Choice Band and Choice Scarf weren't terrible per se, but they were worse than the setup sets and wore it down to quickly (Band) to be useful or completely cut a lot of its offensive capabilities (Scarf).

Kingdra is super splashable and fun to use offensively, but I think defensive teams don't have enough counterplay to this thing and have to rely on too much offensive pressure to take it out. I'd like to ban it.


100% worse than Kingdra. Uxie was oppressive enough but at least it wasn't very strong before a boost and could be dealt with through Encore and Taunt, even if most Encore/Taunt users aren't that great. Alcremie's insane variety makes it super splashable on teams - balance teams can pick up its Fighting resist, physical wall, and setup for a teamslot, hyper offense teams could use its bulk to shore up their fragility, and even bulky teams could use its access to Stored Power to shore up low damage output. There's been quite a few battles where endgame scenarios come down to Alcremie dittos and banking on either critical hits or whether the other has Stored Power. You could fit a Haze/Roar/Whirlwind Pokemon (Qwilfish-H and Articuno are the most notable examples), but most other setup sweepers are too immediately threatening to warrant the teamslot IMO. As wooper said, whittling down is not ideal and Articuno isn't the easiest Pokemon to fit on builds, especially with the loss of Defog/Toxic/Heal Bell. I'd also mention Mesprit as a nice sidegrade for it; the Ground immunity and higher Speed gives it some additional merit as a Nasty Plot + Draining Kiss sweeper, and its greater utility in running Substitute/Encore makes it more threatening against passive builds, though the lower bulk and lack of Recover doesn't always make it a comfortable shoe-in.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

Kingdra is honestly quite interesting to look at from a tiering perspective; stats closely resembling Silvally's 95 across the board, excellent typing, potent abilities and a constricted moveset. While its bulk and offensive prowess are to be expected from those factors, the thing that surprises me the most is the amount of not just viable, but good sets it can run.

The most dangerous and notorious Kingdra set is critdra, which has unrivaled sweeping potential with little to hold it back. Its aforementioned bulk and typing can make it surprisingly easy to find the two needed setup turns, and while utilizing tera to portray something as broken may be a flawed argument in of itself, does it really matter when it indiscriminately tears apart teams when it gets going? A particularly funny interaction is a Kingdra tera steeling up to aid its sweep, followed by something else tera steeling to tank a draco meteor, and then... just dying anyway bc sniper crit. If this however, was the only Kingdra set, it would have defined counterplay and clear flaws despite its insane ceiling. But as mentioned before, that's not even close to being the case.

Unlike SSZU's top pick in Rotom, which also has many viable sets in theory that are ignored in favor of trickplot on 80% of my teams, big seahorse has at least 6 great sets (critdra, specs, band, scarf, dd, rain) most of which have varying counterplay. Want to taunt it with Electrode to prevent setup? Too bad, you got scarf draco'd, hf eating scalds all game. Brought a Snorlax to handle all of critdra rain and specs? How about you eat this cb outrage nerd. Switched in Sableye predicting a setup move? Get Flip Turned on noob. You get the idea. This is of course, not even considering new/wacky/mixed sets that could easily take advantage of popular counterplay; not that Kingdra even needs this to work, the Kingdra user could !showset their Kingdra set at the start of the game and it would still be very scary to deal with. This general threat level and unpredictability makes me lean towards it being banworthy.

The one thing that makes me a bit wary is the fact that we haven't really let the meta simmer enough, and that are no high level games going on (half the zult matches are with known forum teams or zause donations, sorry not sorry). If Kingdra has a weakness it's the fact that it relies heavily on its stabs, even running 4 stab moves on a lot of sets, which can be taken advantage of by picks like tera steel/fairy Poliwrath/Toxicroak/Cacturne that can efficiently countersweep. Apart from Flash Cannon or rogue tera blasts (which have decently high opportunity cost) it can't combat this weakness very well (and cannot afford to at all on its most dangerous set). Let me know what you think though!!! (jk u probs can't in time, the blind voting thread is already up)


I will also purposefully not speak on Alcremie except to comment on the fact that Dazzling Gleam is absolutely the best choice on mono attack, unless you think getting walled by either dark types or Electrode is really fucking funny.

 

[BloodAce]

Ban Alcremie and Electrode Hisui after this.

On the topic of Electrode Hisui, this mon just generates free momentum. There is zero opportunity cost for spamming volt because it beats all the volt blockers and its virtually impossible to chip because of its speed and heavy duty boots. Going into your grass type or snorlax or whatever that can actually eat a leaf storm just ends up being a momentum sink so often because it can freely volt afterward. Something like jolteon is a more balanced version of this because while its fast and has coverage to touch the grounds, it isnt outright threatening to OHKO any of them and requires choices specs or tera to deal with alot of them super well.

There are no high level matches right now because the meta is just so unbearable to build in and play with these mons. The entirely of ladder tour has been borderline unplayable between sun, emboar, uxie, alcremie, etrode, etc and it hasnt been helped by council choices to waste time with suspect tests when there is more pressing stuff that needs to be quickbanned. Sun should have been quickbanned before the Emboar suspect and Alcremie should have been quickbanned before this current suspect. The fact that Alcremie wasnt part of the survey is criminal. I wrote in that survey that its Uxie 2.0 and its certainly lived up to that title for the reasons 5Dots laid out. Hopefully going forward after this suspect the choices for tiering action can improve because its been a rougher past several weeks than it needed to be in my opinion.

 

[Tuthur]

Kingdra has been banned from SV ZU following its suspect test!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-zu-4-kingdra.3745999/#post-10168753

 

[sinnabyss]

Ill just give my short thoughts here on the broken mons rn

Alcremie, much as I love it, has to go for the sake of the metas health. It enters way too easily on meta staples like Bombirdier, Snorlax and Pallosand. Its Absolutely nothing offensive bar crits can handle it once it gets a boost, and our Haze / Roar users are very limited and hard to fit on teams. Even worse it fits on every team imaginable, HO to BO to balance. Tera is really the last straw, as tera poison makes it completely Immune to toxic and means it can setup on supposed counters like Qwilfish. Its absolutely suffocating in both builder and battle and its absurd how its lasted this long.

Electrode-H is also incredibly stupid. Sure, it doesnt hit too hard, but with how absurdly fast it is coupled with its STAB combo, it can just click Volt switch for free anytime it enters, because all of the tiers electric immunez get blown up by Leaf Storm. In Home meta ZU, regular trode got QBd for doing the same thing, but it had to burn tera to do so, and now we have the same thing but better. The argument of Kilowattrel dropping and countering it is irrelevant, bc its 1. not guaranteed and 2. will likely be banned even if it drops. The guaranteed momentum it generates make offensive teams super oppresing, especialy with hazards since our removal options are so bad. Nuke it.

also council really needs to be less passive when banning mons, bc Alc and Electrode being ignored for a Kingdar suspect instead of being QBd is really disappointing.

 

[Dorsia]

I'd be glad if Alcremie got kicked out. I mean, it's somehow manageable but it requires so much preparation to deal with imo. I don't have so much experience but it appears unhealthy atm.

 

[Tuthur]

Tier shifts happened!

Bombirdier moved from ZU to PU
Hoopa moved from ZU to PU

Grafaiai moved from PU to ZU
Whimsicott moved from PU to ZU

 

[5Dots]

posting some quick 10 minute thoughts on shifts:


Definitely missing this already. It was an integral part of many teams, as an offensive Stealth Rock setter that had great utility/pivoting/recovery, a defensive Rocker that could phaze out the likes of Mesprit and Alcremie with Tera Steel consistently, or even be a surprising revenge killer. The versatility will definitely be missed. I anticipate bulky setup sweepers like Snorlax, Mesprit, and especially Alcremie will benefit from its departure. Sandaconda also won't have to be as pressured to fit a coverage move against the bird as well. The downside for that is fatter mons like Qwilfish and Drifblim needing another wall that could provide the compression Bomb needed. While you could have cores like Regirock + Decidueye-Hisui, the glue Bomb provided just isn't there anymore.


This was a cool breaker against bulky builds that I wish could've been around longer. One of the few breakers that could reliably scare away Alcremie with either Trick, sheer force, or even Knock Off. The slowness wasn't too bad considering it could reliably find entry points against targets like Articuno, non-Knock Off Mesprit, Alcremie, and Qwilfish. As with Bombirdier, setup sweepers like Alcremie and Mesprit will definitely benefit from them.


Kind of a cool setup sweeper and reminds me of SS Liepard with the Encore + Copycat shenanigans. The Speed is pretty nice and you function as a consistent revenge killer against popular Grasses like Virizion and Shaymin (though you do lose out on Whimsicott). The utility movepool is definitely cool though you face serious competition from Sableye for the slot. Sableye's typing is just better most of the time and gets Recover for most of its attacks, though Grafaiai's Poison-typing definitely is appealing for the better Grass- and Alcremie matchup!

Swords Dance

Grafaiai @ Poison Barb
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Copycat
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off / Double-Edge

Fast Pivot

Grafaiai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Parting Shot
- Gunk Shot

A cool Specs user with its excellent Speed. Typing is nice against Hisuian Electrode but Jolteon can be a pain. Utlility movepool is pretty decent and can discourage shenanigans like Mesprit and Snorlax from getting too far with their boosts. It can take Jumpluff's SubSeed set and become really annoying against teams without good hazard control, which it can do fairly well considering the plethora of good Spikers (Qwilfish formes, Orthworm, etc.). I think Whimsicott will be a pretty solid Pokemon here, and while not as flashy as Hoopa's damage output, it definitely does its job for utility well!

Specs

Whimsicott @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- U-turn
- Switcheroo

Utility

Whimsicott @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Encore
- Taunt
- Moonblast
- U-turn / Energy Ball / Memento

SubSeed

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Moonblast
- Encore / Taunt

 

[Serviperhater]

nothing about the new shifts makes this guy any less intolerable. won’t go into why he needs to go to much because this form is filled with amazing explanations of that but with its ways to stop most ways of commonly stopping set up sweepers and its ability to beat almost all checks with Tera Posion make it a no brainer for action within the tier and is probably the most overpowered thing currently in the tier.
this is better than both of the zubl unburden mons. what made us think this was a good idea letting it not be quickbanned. while the poison touch and prankster stuff is good for the tier the unburden stuff is too much and calls for a ban.
final mon that I feel deserved to go but this one is a little bit less than the others. the survey that got us to test kingdra had this thing ranked as worse for the tier. it just freely volt switches and beats every single electric immune in the tier with grass stab. we won’t be losing anything valuable if it’s banned because jolteon does the same thing without dogging on every single ground. allows for way to easy pivoting and it feels super annoying to face. it’s a super brain dead mon and I’d love a suspect or even a quick ban.

 

[Tuthur]

So we had a council quick ban vote,

	Outcome	Danny	Drud	fish anemometer	LustfulLice	Monai	OranBerryBlissey10	Tuthur	wooper
Alcremie	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban
Electrode-Hisui	DNB	DNB	Ban	Ban	Ban	DNB	DNB	Ban	Ban
Thwackey	Ban	DNB	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	DNB	Ban	Ban

Alcremie has gathered a lot of complaints since Uxie's ban. It's been a top setup sweeper with Calm Mind + Acid Armor. Its typing gives it an immunity to Dragon Tail, while its ability lets it counter most ways to deal with set sweepers such as Encore, Taunt, and Psychic Noise. With tera Poison to escape difficult matchups like Toxic and Poison- and Steel-type attacks, there are very limited options to Alcremie such as the unreliable Trick + Choice Item and the difficult to fit (p)hazing moves. As such Alcremie has been deemed far too effective and restraining as a setup sweeper in the tier.

Another Pokemon that got discussed a lot, while not quite as much as Alcremie. The infinite momentum it seems to be able to generate has been deemed problematic by many. However, it is unable to damage most special walls as well as Grass- and (the rare) Dragon-types, meaning it won't be able to win games on its own most of the time.

This might surprise many people as Thwackey has been an integral part of the tier before. However with the recent drop of Grafaiai to the tier and it being broken in conjuction with Thwackey's Grassy Terrain support, it's been deemed that Thwackey might actually be the broken element in the tier as Hitmonlee and Sceptile were already banned for this reason. This is a decision that has been taken after consulting official tier leaders, and if these Pokemon still are a problem with the support of other terrain setters such as Grookey, Arboliva, Indeedee-F, and Pincurchin, the ban could be updated to something else.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please ban Alcremie and Thwackey from SV ZU, and unban Sceptile and Hitmonlee. Thank you!

 

[Flashrider57]

Take my comments with a grain of salt, because my recent battles on ZU have been semi-derping around, and it’s been years since I took laddering even remotely seriously. That being said, while there’s no complaints here for the Alcremie ban, I don’t quite agree with the Thwackey ban.

Yes, when Thwackey is used well, it’s definitely very annoying, but after messing around with Arboliva + dual Unburden (Grafaiai and Drifblim) as one of my teams, it feels like the Unburden pair doing well is less about the terrain support that is provided by Arboliva (and similarly Thwackey) and more about how they can be very tricky to deal with once Unburden triggers. And I say that knowing that I’m definitely not using them optimally and usually straight-up attacking even when I should set up with Swords Dance and/or Calm Mind, respectively, but if I’m in a decent position with one of them out, opponents rarely seem comfortable trying to find a good way to counter them because of how speedy they are. While there were plenty of times where they were able to be stopped, much of the time it seemed like it was due more to bad reads on my end than good, solid counters, and one of the few consistent ones I encountered was Alcremie, which is now gone.

 

[sinnabyss]

This dumbass is absurdly broken. In a vacuum, yes it can hurt the many grasses in the tier, that doesnt matter because it can just volt switch into a teammate that threathens them. Not being able to seriously damage some mons isnt its job, its to generate momentum endlessly until tbe opposing team breaks. Paired with the endless knock off users as well as hazard removal being hard to fit on most teams, this thing needs to go.


While gterrrain teams are extremely broken and thwackey is indeeed the best setter, banning it was undeserved, especially with the unbanning of the other unburden menaces in sceptile and hitmonlee. Why: Because we have other setters, dammit.

These two, while not doing much on their own, enable a myriad of broken sweepers like the unburden trio, mespirit, oricorio, farigiraf. The problem isnt thwackey, its grassy seed. We banned it last gen for less, so we should do it now considering how even more broken mons it enables. Certain council members shouldnt keep such an unhealthy aspect of a tier just because they dont want to do a complex ban.

 

[LettuceLeaf07]

I am here to echo the fact that Arboliva and Grookey are now completely viable terrain setters just because of Unburden. It helps that you can have more than one ability-based setter better than Pincurchin to stack onto a team, and the defense boost from grassy seed is more useful than the SpD boost from Psychic Seed. The physical defense boost also compounds with the unburden users' inherent strengths against special attackers (Hitmonlee's 110 SpD, Sceptile resisting Hisui Trode's STAB and outspeeding everything else, Farigiraf and the other special sweepers running CM or QD to boost SpD) to make them very very difficult to remove. And no, you can't use priority when there is a Farigiraf around, especially because Terrain Extender means that terrain is still up to grant another boost to the Giraffe, who has now set up a CM and Agility thanks to your attack only doing 50% before terrain recovery.

The most reliable (or annoying) answers to terrain that I faced are Bastiodon (who for some reason I cannot break through and has also roared in and out all of my grassy seeds before my Hitmonlee came back in) and Ice Spinner. Indeedee-F is outnumbered in the terrain wars 2-1, although the only one I faced was slower than my Grookey and got U-turned on.

Dipping into the pool of otherwise unviable LC Pokémon is a flagship sign that something is broken. In this case, I think that unburden is more problematic than Grassy Surge or Grassy Seed. In my opinion, the unburden users are the problem here, since doubling their speed and increasing their bulk just by switching in puts immense pressure on an opponent's team and lets them be successful. It's the reason people are using grassy surge, so outside of maybe tiering policy precedent that I don't have memorized, Unburden should be banned. Sure, nobody is using Shroodle or Driftloon because of Unburden, but it's the reason Grookey is even on anyone's radar. And Grookey is definitely deadweight outside of Unburden spam, but it's just fast enough with taunt to be better than Pincurchin. Also if you ever wanted to run Worry Seed, Grookey has a free moveslot for it.

Additionally, I believe that the unburden pokemon have niches outside of unburden that could be nice to see (Grafaiai), and although an Unburden ban doesn't touch the Stored Power sweepers on Terrain teams, Unburden provides more immediate power with less counterplay, and is more oppressive. Alcremie and Uxie (especially the former) were able to work without grassy seed, so I don't see the sparing of Stored Power strats as an issue when picking a nerf for Terrain teams. I guess for a tiering example in my favor, Gen8NU banning Sandslash-a completely because of Slush Rush is a comparable ban? It shows at least some precedent showing that an ability can be banned to the detriment of LC pokemon nobody uses, hence avoiding Shroodle as a counterpoint. This point is stronger if Drifblim begins to pop off.

If you don't think an Unburden ban is the route to take here or want to hear thoughts on other potential bans, here is how I would order some potential options:
1. Unburden Ban. See above- tldr if it makes Grookey viable, something is up.
2. Grassy Seed Ban. I feel like grassy seed is the biggest Unburden enabler, so banning it would be the biggest nerf to Unburden strategies without eliminating them entirely. I feel like this is second to Unburden since the fact that it technically preserves the playstyle means more problematic elements can appear down the line, and I'm feeling a little drastic today.
3. Grassy Surge Ban. If banning Grassy Seed is not a possibility, this feels like the next most reasonable option. It would leave Arboliva as the only grassy terrain setter, which is funny because it sets terrain by dying. This would definitely nerf the playstyle as much as a seed ban, but it feels a little too drastic and less obvious than a Grassy Seed ban. To elaborate, I feel like there is more of an argument for preserving grassy surge and Thwackey than Grassy seed.
4. Banning the Abusers. I like this option the least in this case, since although it worked with Sceptile and Hitmonlee, I'm going to miss Grafaiai, who more clearly has a niche outside of unburden.

I did also want to add that I believe the most broken unburden mon is Hitmonlee, who I feel would have an easier time activating Unburden than the other sweepers through stuff like White Herb and Endure, and therefore being the least deterred by a Grassy Seed ban. I definitely considered this as a point in favor of a flat-out unburden ban, but I can't ignore how a broken Hitmonlee after a grassy seed ban is a perfect case of 'ban the abuser' and probably shouldn't be considered one way or the other.

 

[Tuthur]

I know a lot of people have been unhappy with the direction we took regarding terrains, just as shown by the post above me. I would like to remind everyone, that there is a Policy Review thread where you can talk about ZU should tackle this issue. If you dont have a badge you can still request to post there.

As for my personal opinion, I've to say I have not played much since the last slate. However, you have to remember Grookey, Arboliva, Pincurchin, and Indeedee-F all have outright downgrades to Thwackey. Grookey is just OHKOed by everything meaning it is very hard to use, Arboliva can be played around by not attacking it, Pincurchin has a better bulk than Grookey but its not bulky either and its terrain is also worse because of no recovery, not boosting Sceptile's STAB move and not weaking Eq for Grafaiai, and finally Indeedee is just harder to use because its terrain still hasnt the same benefit akin to Pincurchin though priority immunity is quite good, but mainly because the spd boost is worse. It makes usual special sweepers like Drifblim, Oricorio, and Farigiraf worse partners and doesnt ease Hitmonlee's setup as much.

The playstyle might still be problematic, but let's not jump the gun and claim it is just the same as before, when it definitely can't. Let's explore the options we have, especially now that very restrictive Pokemon like Alcremie, Kingdra, and Uxie are gone, and see how it turns out in the highest level of plays (ZUPL).

 

[LettuceLeaf07]

It's been a while, and I feel like my opinion on terrain and stuff has changed. Frankly, I don't think terrain is broken. And if it is, it's only because of the seeds.

As far as all the abusers go, specifically the unburden trio of Hitmonlee, Sceptile, and Grafaiai and special sweepers like Farigiraf, Oricorio, and Mesprit, they aren't hard enough to counter for me to think they are broken. In the context of full terrain teams, the special sweepers tend to be tera hogs that need a few turns to boost to sweeping level. Once they are set up, they are difficult to stop, but we've been dealing with mons like this for a while now, and the one immune to Encore and Taunt is banned. If you are saving a tera for your special sweeper, then your opponent can counter your unburden trio in the builder. They are all physical mons with similar coverage, and there are pokemon like Weezing and Qwilfish that can resist or survive CC, Knock, Poison Jab, Acrobatics, Leaf Blade, and whatever move Sceptile is not going to click. The unburden mons have predictable coverage, which makes them predictable enough to be balanced in the builder. Full terrains also have the issue of playing a 5v6, or if you are setting rocks with Avalugg against someone who knows how to play around one, a 4v6. They're also really vulnerable to phasing, since all of these mons need to set up if they want to do damage, barring maybe Hitmonlee who still can't break through either Qwilfish without setup.

Then again, my experience lately has been mostly on ladder, where weird NFEs are starting to pop up again and where I have completely forgotten how to build. Between that and the fact that Grookey and Pincurchin are both viable, I can't be certain that Terrain is healthy at higher levels, although I know that it is not nearly as broken as I thought it was.

 

[Tuthur]

The ZU council unanimously agrees that Psychic terrain and Grassy Terrain were both problematic playstyles. After consulting shiloh, we were advised to ban Unburden, over Psychic and Grassy Seed, as ability bans are better than item bans, and one ban is better than two, and after further discussions wooper and I agreed this was the best action for ZU. Thwackey will also be unbanned from ZUBL.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please ban Unburden and unban Thwackey from SV ZU.