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np: USUM UU Stage 7 - Too Good At Goodbyes (Azumarill banned, Breloom and Serperior remain UU)
- Thread starter Pearl
- Start date
- Status
I agree with this, you beat most bulky waters with Sludge Bomb... being walled by Scizor is pretty trash for a mon like Vileplume and I think is more important than Grass STAB.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...2-reggaetón-lento.3630113/page-4#post-7739154
Hey kids, remember this quality post?
Looking back, it was kinda dumb. Golisopod is just soooo outclassed compared to Azuma-
oh wait
Yeah, you're boy is kinda better now. Aside from one of its main checks and competitors being gone, meta trends have benefitted it too. The decline of fat teams helps its First Impression spam out a lot, and a lot rising mons like Krookodile, Breloom and Chandelure can be taken advantage of in some way or another.
Waddya think? Have the REAL isopod hours finally arrived? Is the stage set for this beast to finally be a relevant threat?
Hey kids, remember this quality post?
Looking back, it was kinda dumb. Golisopod is just soooo outclassed compared to Azuma-
oh wait
Yeah, you're boy is kinda better now. Aside from one of its main checks and competitors being gone, meta trends have benefitted it too. The decline of fat teams helps its First Impression spam out a lot, and a lot rising mons like Krookodile, Breloom and Chandelure can be taken advantage of in some way or another.
Waddya think? Have the REAL isopod hours finally arrived? Is the stage set for this beast to finally be a relevant threat?
I never thought I'd be making a post like this in the UU subforum but this is a scenario I think I can be of some assistance. Yes it's true that w/ azu gone golisopod has a more notable niche in the meta, but I don't think the recent departure of azu fully justifies using golis here. Unlike RU where it's limited, UU has a ton of counterplay to the STAB golisopod utilizes. Volcanion, Empoleon, M-Alt, Kommo, Primarina, Suicune, Tentacruel and especially Alo are mons that handle both forms of STAB. Mantine does too but I don't really think it'd be too viable in UU, not sure. Yeah it can run coverage for some stuff and realistically for this tier I'd probably use Drill Run if anything. Beyond this though, getting locked into a move in this tier is a lot more dangerous since I feel the setup sweepers in the tier like gliscor, m-alt, kommo, and several others easily can take advantage of a banded golisopod, esp if locked into first impression. In RU it isn't as bad since realistically no setup sweeper in the tier appreciates first impression, so it becomes relatively manageable if your opponent was to setup post-first impression. As a lighter point I'd like to say that many mons in this tier completely abuse a locked golisopod despite not resisting one of its STAB options, such as seismitoad, stakataka, serperior, terrak, togekiss, and the list goes on. It just is too easily abused in this tier imo to warrant serious use. sorry if this post isn't sufficient in anyway, I'm not largely acquainted w/ uu.
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I disagree with this argument. Following this logic, we have to run Empoleon or Blissey on every team to not get destroyed by Primarina. We have to run Fairy-types to not get destroyed by Hydreigon. We have to run Mega Aggron or Metagross to not get destroyed by Calm Mind Latias. And so on.
That works up to a point, but I do have to say that merely existing can create 50/50s normally in Breloom’s favor if it gets the switch. If your answer is Celebi, you’re safe up to a point (referring to the various natural gift sets), but a switch to your check is pretty easy to read, and if the thing outruns your current mon it can get a pretty much free Spore, SD, or Sub on both a switch and a move it’s probably in on already.
breloom is obviously a very good pokemon with a well placed spore being able to potentially cause a lot of problems for your team. but I dont think it's that much of a stretch to figure out which pokemon on your team can afford to take the sleep and which cannot. there are some obvious ones like sleep talk mons that are the clear initial switch in to breloom but realising that in a breloom match up you're gonna have to /maybe/ let one of your pokemon sleep in order for you to be able to check it doesn't make it broken.
breloom's effectiveness is also really held back by its speed. we have plenty of good faster fighting resists, latias, gliscor, tentacruel, togekiss, altaria, moltres, just to name a few and some like vileplume and celebi (natural gift arguments are pretty shoddy because by that extension swampert in oras is a bad entei check because natural gift grass) that dont care about breloom all and plenty of good options for fighting immunities like chandelure, gengar and tsareena. often times these pokemon find themselves on teams in different combinations and that causes breloom to potentiaally find itself in situations where it has a hard time getting an attack off and this is assuming it gets a free switch in, something that's only really possible on a double switch or after a sack considering it's very lacklustre bulk ensuring it cant switch in on anything remotely offensive. your team either is absurdly slow or has a bad weakness to fighting types in general for you to feel like you really have no chance against a breloom in my opinion
breloom's effectiveness is also really held back by its speed. we have plenty of good faster fighting resists, latias, gliscor, tentacruel, togekiss, altaria, moltres, just to name a few and some like vileplume and celebi (natural gift arguments are pretty shoddy because by that extension swampert in oras is a bad entei check because natural gift grass) that dont care about breloom all and plenty of good options for fighting immunities like chandelure, gengar and tsareena. often times these pokemon find themselves on teams in different combinations and that causes breloom to potentiaally find itself in situations where it has a hard time getting an attack off and this is assuming it gets a free switch in, something that's only really possible on a double switch or after a sack considering it's very lacklustre bulk ensuring it cant switch in on anything remotely offensive. your team either is absurdly slow or has a bad weakness to fighting types in general for you to feel like you really have no chance against a breloom in my opinion
I feel like you guys tend to argue Breloom isnt broken because its easy to revenge kill. That i agree with. Thats not the problem though. Its not broken as a sweeper. But as a wallbreaker with access to a very powerful priority which can let it clean at times + access to spore. This is What differentiates it from something like primarina. Its just as hard switching into, But it has so much going for it except being a nuke aswell.
I don't post very often, but Breloom to me seems like the perfect example of something that should get suspected/banned. It's virtually guaranteed to eliminate at least one, probably two mons on a team without any real effort between spore and its sheer power. It has way too much dominance over the metagame with very few checks/counters, and the fact that the best answer to it appears to be "well you're going to have to let one of your mons sleep or run a sleep talker", that seems like the very definition of something that needs to be suspected. That's insanity.
Also on Breloom, Facade Toxic Orb (usually with Spore, SD and Mach Punch) is an extremely underrated wallbreaker. It really needs more discussion. It has an ability to outlast or break through practically every wall with SR support and a partner to pivot with.
Even in the initial suspect test to unban Breloom, Facade sets were hugely overlooked with very little discussion.
Like @geezer said, by itself this isn't a horrible problem. But the fact that it's offensive sweeping prowess is already ranked in the As, makes this a dual threat that comparable wallbreakers like Haxorus don't really have.
Breloom has been a topic so long. I still am uncertain if it even deserves a test, let alone a ban, primarily because we already gave it a suspect test and council vote so at some point I think it's unfair to Breloom supporters to constantly test it. But soon, we deserve to know of some type of decision.
Even in the initial suspect test to unban Breloom, Facade sets were hugely overlooked with very little discussion.
Like @geezer said, by itself this isn't a horrible problem. But the fact that it's offensive sweeping prowess is already ranked in the As, makes this a dual threat that comparable wallbreakers like Haxorus don't really have.
Breloom has been a topic so long. I still am uncertain if it even deserves a test, let alone a ban, primarily because we already gave it a suspect test and council vote so at some point I think it's unfair to Breloom supporters to constantly test it. But soon, we deserve to know of some type of decision.
While I was once very anti breloom, and agree that the Toxic Orb set is a relatively new development that should definitely be considered in Breloom discussions, I don’t think it deserves a suspect or ban at the current time. A lot of this will be rehashing Cynde’s points but to try and add something fresh to the discussion, let’s look at its recent performances in UUPL. It currently holds the second worst winrate in the top 20 pokemon used thus far this UUPL, at 36.84% just behind Aggron with 35%. Winrates can be deceptive, but spectating the games themselves, I haven’t seen a great deal of evidence to back up some of the ban arguments posted here, especially those that seem to think Breloom picks up 2 kills with ease every single game. It’s extremely difficult to ever bring into the game and even once in, can easily be KOed or forced out by a whole myriad of Pokemon we have in the tier. It definitely forces uncomfortable situations for the opposing player at times, but it is not alone in this regard and I think it just gets a lot of flak due to providing a different challenge in the teambuilder with regards to sleep that makes people consider it broken. Even though I’m pretty sure nothing will be touched before the end of UUPL (which I agree with), I’d much rather see a Scizor suspect at this time, even though I don’t know if I consider that broken or not. To me it carries more of the characteristics that I could define a Pokemon being “broken” by.
I feel like a bit of a broken record at this point, and maybe it's just because I play a lot of other tiers/gens where sleep is more relevant, but... why exactly is "you should build in a way that accounts for the existence of sleep moves" insanity? I feel like having a sleep absorber was pretty much a team requirement for gens 2-5, and wasn't actually that uncommon last gen either. I understand that sleep is annoying, but why is it considered unhealthy to have to account for it when you build? Between grass types carrying an immunity to powder moves, abilities like Overcoat and the universal distribution of Sleep Talk, it's not even particularly arduous to build around. It's not like Breloom is the only abuser here, as we've been seeing a surge in sets like HypnoHex Gengar and some anti-meta 'mons like Roserade and Vileplume lately.
Anyhow, one of the big reasons I wanted to hold off on a loom suspect was to see how the meta developed with Amoonguss gone. UUPL has been a great testing ground for the post-shifts and post-Azu meta. I've watched every SM game this UUPL, in addition to keeping an eye on the ladder and various roomtours.
The ladder definitely seemed like it saw a big surge in loom usage right after the Amoong ban, but from what I've seen it has actually settled down a fair bit since. This is purely anecdotal because I haven't seen May's stats yet, but from playing and watching a fair bit, it feels like Breloom is nowhere near where it was a month ago (when it surged into the top 5 in usage). This makes sense, because in general the meta seems like it has been shifting around it. Latias seems to have supplanted Gliscor and Manectric to hover right behind Scizor in usage, and I feel like there has also been a big rise in usage of Altaria and Aero, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if they were both in top 10. We're seeing other trends as well: Kommo-o, Celebi and Chandy have been getting solid usage these days too. All in all the meta on the ladder has been adjusting since Breloom's rise, and things are way less favorable for it than they were right after Amoonguss left. It's still a really good 'mon and a powerful offensive threat, but it doesn't feel anywhere near as dominant as it did a month ago.
Freeroamer covered UUPL fairly well, but the trends are even more pronounced there. Breloom hasn't been totally worthless but it has a really poor winrate, and its usage isn't what you'd expect from a top 'mon. Of course, the trends you see toward the high end of the ladder end up even more pronounced in UUPL: Latias has even eclipsed Scizor in usage there, Aero is the most popular mega, Toge usage is surprisingly high (I blame Sacri'), etc. These factors seem to be enough to hold Breloom in check despite other factors that seemingly should help it, such as a rise in prominent Mach Punch targets (Krook, Hydra and Terrak usage all seems to be on the rise).
All in all, I feel like the meta has adjusted around Breloom fairly well. Yes, you do need to build with it in mind, and that might mean thinking about how you deal with sleep in general. And yes, I strongly agree with pokeisfun and Freeroamer that Toxic Orb sets need to be explored more (although they have significant drawbacks as well, most particularly in their inability to touch the Ghost-types of UU that have been seeing a bit of a surge). But I find Breloom significantly easier to build around than other top threats like Sciz, Lati and Gliscor, and in practice I just haven't seen it putting in the work that people in this thread have been saying it puts in. I'm not opposed to a Breloom suspect (though I wanted to wait until UUPL was mostly over to give the meta a chance to develop), but I still just plain don't find it broken.
Anyhow, one of the big reasons I wanted to hold off on a loom suspect was to see how the meta developed with Amoonguss gone. UUPL has been a great testing ground for the post-shifts and post-Azu meta. I've watched every SM game this UUPL, in addition to keeping an eye on the ladder and various roomtours.
The ladder definitely seemed like it saw a big surge in loom usage right after the Amoong ban, but from what I've seen it has actually settled down a fair bit since. This is purely anecdotal because I haven't seen May's stats yet, but from playing and watching a fair bit, it feels like Breloom is nowhere near where it was a month ago (when it surged into the top 5 in usage). This makes sense, because in general the meta seems like it has been shifting around it. Latias seems to have supplanted Gliscor and Manectric to hover right behind Scizor in usage, and I feel like there has also been a big rise in usage of Altaria and Aero, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if they were both in top 10. We're seeing other trends as well: Kommo-o, Celebi and Chandy have been getting solid usage these days too. All in all the meta on the ladder has been adjusting since Breloom's rise, and things are way less favorable for it than they were right after Amoonguss left. It's still a really good 'mon and a powerful offensive threat, but it doesn't feel anywhere near as dominant as it did a month ago.
Freeroamer covered UUPL fairly well, but the trends are even more pronounced there. Breloom hasn't been totally worthless but it has a really poor winrate, and its usage isn't what you'd expect from a top 'mon. Of course, the trends you see toward the high end of the ladder end up even more pronounced in UUPL: Latias has even eclipsed Scizor in usage there, Aero is the most popular mega, Toge usage is surprisingly high (I blame Sacri'), etc. These factors seem to be enough to hold Breloom in check despite other factors that seemingly should help it, such as a rise in prominent Mach Punch targets (Krook, Hydra and Terrak usage all seems to be on the rise).
All in all, I feel like the meta has adjusted around Breloom fairly well. Yes, you do need to build with it in mind, and that might mean thinking about how you deal with sleep in general. And yes, I strongly agree with pokeisfun and Freeroamer that Toxic Orb sets need to be explored more (although they have significant drawbacks as well, most particularly in their inability to touch the Ghost-types of UU that have been seeing a bit of a surge). But I find Breloom significantly easier to build around than other top threats like Sciz, Lati and Gliscor, and in practice I just haven't seen it putting in the work that people in this thread have been saying it puts in. I'm not opposed to a Breloom suspect (though I wanted to wait until UUPL was mostly over to give the meta a chance to develop), but I still just plain don't find it broken.
I've stated my opinion on Breloom multiple times (its presence is bad for the tier), so I'd like to take a step back and discuss some stuff that I've enjoyed using in the current meta.
I added this to a team more or less on a whim (I had a team that needed a Ground-type and some speed and lacked a Z-move user and offensive presence in general) and it worked out surprisingly well. I passed 1700 Elo using this set and it was successful in the test games I used it in. It outspeeds every relevant Choice Scarf user after a Dragon Dance and has Extremespeed to pick off weakened opponents with or without a boost. Dragonium Z gives Zygarde-10% a powerful one-time nuke and lets it avoid locking itself into Outrage. This set does a good job of baiting in stuff like Gliscor that can comfortably tank Thousand Arrows and then removing it with Devastating Drake (+1 252 Atk Zygarde-10% Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 321-378 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal, so it's easy to KO if Stealth Rock is up and it's taken a little prior damage. Even if it's at full, most Gliscor I've encountered don't Roost immediately and are therefore easily within KO range of Thousand Arrows the next turn).
That said, Zygarde-10% is still very frail, and 100 base Attack is nothing to write home about. This set also struggles to provide the defensive utility you'd normally expect from a Ground- or Dragon-type. Supporting it well is key. Entry hazards and other forms of chip damage go a long way toward making up for Zygarde-10%'s unimpressive damage output. The team I ran it on used Toxic Spikes, but regular Spikes work just fine too.
Starmie's another nice breaker with a great Speed tier. Being able to outspeed and threaten pretty much anything that isn't a Choice Scarf user, a Mega Evolution, or Crobat is really valuable for offensive teams, and Life Orb + Analytic do a lot to make up for Starmie's unimpressive Special Attack stat. It's possible to run Rapid Spin over one of the last 3 moves, depending on what your team covers, but I personally prefer to forgo it entirely in order to maximize Starmie's offensive presence. Thunderbolt is probably the easiest move to drop, but it's nice for KOing stuff like Empoleon, Mantine, and opposing Starmie. Despite its offensive presence, Starmie does struggle to fulfill the defensive roles often expected of Water- and Psychic-types in this meta and can force awkward type-stacking to compensate for its inability to check certain Pokemon effectively. As a result, I find this Starmie set to be most useful on offensive teams that require less defensive synergy and can take advantage of its high offensive presence.
Nihilego remains underrated and underexplored, in my opinion. This set in particular is nice for luring various Ground-types. Depending on what coverage you show first (Grass Knot or Hidden Power Ice), people will often switch in whatever Ground-type doesn't lose to the revealed move, assuming that the last move is a hazard or Power Gem and that therefore they're safe. Hidden Power Ice is mainly for Gliscor. This set can run any of several different items. Life Orb is a nice general-purpose power boost, while Electrium Z lets Nihilego muscle past Steel-types like Mega Aggron. I've run Black Sludge on multiple Nihilego sets and found it useful for giving this Pokemon a little more longevity. Expert Belt helps bluff Electrium-Z or Choice Scarf and takes advantage of Nihilego's nice super effective coverage.
Nihilego's typing is a bit awkward, both offensively and defensively, but it does have some benefits. Being able to offensively check stuff like Togekiss, Mega Pidgeot, and most Fairy-types is pretty useful. Nihilego also makes a nice hazard setter when paired with something that threatens stall because it beats stall's common Defoggers (Gliscor, Moltres, Mega Altaria, etc.) 1v1. Setting up Stealth Rock, bringing out something like a strong Fighting-type that forces Blissey out, and then doubling into Nihilego is a good way to rack up damage on stall Defoggers, although you have to be a bit careful around Gliscor to avoid giving away the fact that you're running Hidden Power Ice. Nihilego can also threaten some of the hazard removers found on more balanced teams, like Empoleon and Tentacruel. Overall, I think this Pokemon isn't getting as much usage as it deserves and has a lot to offer to players willing to compensate for its flaws.
While Mega Manectric is the current Electric-type of choice (and rightfully so), Raikou still has a lot to offer players who want to use another Mega Evolution. In particular, Raikou's access to Calm Mind + Z-Moves allows it to remove, or at least cripple, the bulky Ground-types that serve as hard stops to Mega Manectric. The ability to weaken Hippowdon, Swampert, Latias, Celebi, and other common Pokemon makes Raikou a good partner for Pokemon that ordinarily struggle with them. Raikou also has the freedom to use Shuca Berry + Signal Beam to tank a hit from a frailer Ground-type or Mega Aerodactyl and KO in return with the appropriate move (I've run this set for around a year now and it has yet to disappoint. Signal Beam provides coverage on Krookodile and Latias). Take advantage of Raikou's ability to boost and freedom to run an item to differentiate it from Mega Manectric.
Zygarde-10% @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
That said, Zygarde-10% is still very frail, and 100 base Attack is nothing to write home about. This set also struggles to provide the defensive utility you'd normally expect from a Ground- or Dragon-type. Supporting it well is key. Entry hazards and other forms of chip damage go a long way toward making up for Zygarde-10%'s unimpressive damage output. The team I ran it on used Toxic Spikes, but regular Spikes work just fine too.
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
Nihilego @ Life Orb / Electrium Z / Black Sludge / Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Nihilego's typing is a bit awkward, both offensively and defensively, but it does have some benefits. Being able to offensively check stuff like Togekiss, Mega Pidgeot, and most Fairy-types is pretty useful. Nihilego also makes a nice hazard setter when paired with something that threatens stall because it beats stall's common Defoggers (Gliscor, Moltres, Mega Altaria, etc.) 1v1. Setting up Stealth Rock, bringing out something like a strong Fighting-type that forces Blissey out, and then doubling into Nihilego is a good way to rack up damage on stall Defoggers, although you have to be a bit careful around Gliscor to avoid giving away the fact that you're running Hidden Power Ice. Nihilego can also threaten some of the hazard removers found on more balanced teams, like Empoleon and Tentacruel. Overall, I think this Pokemon isn't getting as much usage as it deserves and has a lot to offer to players willing to compensate for its flaws.
Raikou @ Ghostium Z / Normalium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball / Hyper Beam
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball / Hyper Beam
i don't want to rehash the tired argument of loom being broken vs loom being not broken, next to everything that can be said on the matter has been said, but i genuinely dont feel like having loom is conducive to a healthy tier. i've said my piece (peace?) about loom a few pages back, and i don't think i can bring anything new to the table. obviously people are going to be split, with a ton of people saying that loom's access to spore, sd mach/bp/rock tomb, stallbreaker/cb sets, and ability to punish slower builds makes it broken, while an almost identical number of people will posit that loom's lack of speed and bulk and its difficulty against offensive builds makes it more broken on paper than in practice - in the same vein as heracross/primarina.
we should have a period without any major tours once uupl ends and before open begins, and i feel like this would be the perfect time to suspect loom. loom will continue to be a divisive issue until the community actually votes on it, and getting this test done before open would be the perfect time to accurately gauge public opinion without being hindered by a major uu tour.
while the council is good for getting qbs done, 9 people is not a large enough sample size to reflect the opinion of the tier as a whole, particularly when three of those nine voted ban, with the added caveat of those three (pak, pearl, christo) being arguably the 3 best current SM UU players and builders.
i've said it before, but if the powers that be are worried about the same plebeian class that voted to ban cherished mlati, we have that comfy 80-82 gxe bar.
i'm not tryna play the rock tomb/spore/bp mind games anymore, but a lot of people are, so let's schedule a test for the window after uupl ends and before open begins.
we should have a period without any major tours once uupl ends and before open begins, and i feel like this would be the perfect time to suspect loom. loom will continue to be a divisive issue until the community actually votes on it, and getting this test done before open would be the perfect time to accurately gauge public opinion without being hindered by a major uu tour.
while the council is good for getting qbs done, 9 people is not a large enough sample size to reflect the opinion of the tier as a whole, particularly when three of those nine voted ban, with the added caveat of those three (pak, pearl, christo) being arguably the 3 best current SM UU players and builders.
i've said it before, but if the powers that be are worried about the same plebeian class that voted to ban cherished mlati, we have that comfy 80-82 gxe bar.
i'm not tryna play the rock tomb/spore/bp mind games anymore, but a lot of people are, so let's schedule a test for the window after uupl ends and before open begins.
Yo
I'm not gonna discuss whether Breloom is broken or not, I think a public suspect test is the right thing unless people are looking forward to complains about it being broken in UU for the rest of USUM - agreeing with what yeezyknow said.
Anyways, I know it's pretty late, but I wanna question the ban of Drought as the result of Mega Houndoom dropping from OU. I think it is sad to see an entire (in my opinion) viable play style being removed do to 1 B+ rank pokemon that isn't very meta-defining in the first place. I completely acknowledge Solar Power M-Houndoom possibly being too much for UU, but the ban just feels like such a waste as we aren't allowed to use Drought, which we banned to be able to use M-Houndoom that doesn't see very high usage anyways.
I know some of you understandably might think "Sun in UU, WTF", as it was little to not seen at all when it was allowed in the tier, but that is, to me, solely a result of missing creativity, and the tendency of only sticking to UU tiered mons and what is popular in the meta in the moment. I used to spam Sun teams in the Mega-Latias meta (shoutouts M-Lati http://pokepast.es/3a2ef3a967a505a4) and to get reqs for it, and lord it was solid. Chlorophyl Venu is such a good mon in UU with Growth - Giga Drain - Sludge Bomb - HP Fire, to those who haven't tried it out. It works both speed control, a SUPER good stall breaker and a breaker in general, also being able to run Z-moves on it over LO, a mixed set with EQ and other stuff. Also being able to outspeed everything in the meta with a Timid nature.
The Sun setters in Ninetales and Torkoal are not UU-caliber mons, but can def work here too. Torkoal un dedicated Sun teams with Heat Rock, supporting with Spin and Rocks and being a good Scizor Check, and Ninetales which can potentially be used as a Specs user, a NP Firium user or whatever you need on the team. So a dedicated Sun team isn't the only option - you could just run one of the 2 with Venu like we have seen rising in RU, again there are just a lot of unexplored opportunities here.
Speaking of abusers of Drought, then I'm not just talking about Chlorophyl users like Venu. Fire stab is generally super strong and Drought making it stab for the mons that it otherwise wouldn't be is a super cool option, especially with Scizor running around. Think about stuff like Specs Hydreigon with Sun boosted Fire Blasts (252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in Sun: 232-274 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Gliscor being able to freely SD up on every Scalds and a lot of other stuff. I just think there is so many ways of capitalizing on Sun in the meta, heres an example of a Sun team from the M-Lati meta I made: http://pokepast.es/8baa135322c1912a - I know it's not the most solid shit, as I was rather new to UU back then, and it looks too much like RU, but the stability of the team (at least on the ladder) surprised me and made me realize that it was solid.
I just think it is sad that Drought (Sun) got banned to make room for only 1, mediocre, not-too-used mon, limiting the building opportunities in a tier which is already too limited to me. So please, council, reconsider the ban of Drought and consider getting rid of M-Houndoom if it is too much with Drought support.
And don't come and say that you can run Prankster Sunny day or whatever instead lol, imagine Drizzle being banned in OU and being forced to run either mons that unreliable gets up rain, or Klefki + Tornadus or whatever - not reliable.
And if you feel Sun in UU is ass, and not worth the fuzz, then let me know if u've tried properly building around it and if so, what made it bad. I can only speak for myself, and there is definitely a number of points I have missed.
Peace
I'm not gonna discuss whether Breloom is broken or not, I think a public suspect test is the right thing unless people are looking forward to complains about it being broken in UU for the rest of USUM - agreeing with what yeezyknow said.
Anyways, I know it's pretty late, but I wanna question the ban of Drought as the result of Mega Houndoom dropping from OU. I think it is sad to see an entire (in my opinion) viable play style being removed do to 1 B+ rank pokemon that isn't very meta-defining in the first place. I completely acknowledge Solar Power M-Houndoom possibly being too much for UU, but the ban just feels like such a waste as we aren't allowed to use Drought, which we banned to be able to use M-Houndoom that doesn't see very high usage anyways.
I know some of you understandably might think "Sun in UU, WTF", as it was little to not seen at all when it was allowed in the tier, but that is, to me, solely a result of missing creativity, and the tendency of only sticking to UU tiered mons and what is popular in the meta in the moment. I used to spam Sun teams in the Mega-Latias meta (shoutouts M-Lati http://pokepast.es/3a2ef3a967a505a4) and to get reqs for it, and lord it was solid. Chlorophyl Venu is such a good mon in UU with Growth - Giga Drain - Sludge Bomb - HP Fire, to those who haven't tried it out. It works both speed control, a SUPER good stall breaker and a breaker in general, also being able to run Z-moves on it over LO, a mixed set with EQ and other stuff. Also being able to outspeed everything in the meta with a Timid nature.
The Sun setters in Ninetales and Torkoal are not UU-caliber mons, but can def work here too. Torkoal un dedicated Sun teams with Heat Rock, supporting with Spin and Rocks and being a good Scizor Check, and Ninetales which can potentially be used as a Specs user, a NP Firium user or whatever you need on the team. So a dedicated Sun team isn't the only option - you could just run one of the 2 with Venu like we have seen rising in RU, again there are just a lot of unexplored opportunities here.
Speaking of abusers of Drought, then I'm not just talking about Chlorophyl users like Venu. Fire stab is generally super strong and Drought making it stab for the mons that it otherwise wouldn't be is a super cool option, especially with Scizor running around. Think about stuff like Specs Hydreigon with Sun boosted Fire Blasts (252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in Sun: 232-274 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Gliscor being able to freely SD up on every Scalds and a lot of other stuff. I just think there is so many ways of capitalizing on Sun in the meta, heres an example of a Sun team from the M-Lati meta I made: http://pokepast.es/8baa135322c1912a - I know it's not the most solid shit, as I was rather new to UU back then, and it looks too much like RU, but the stability of the team (at least on the ladder) surprised me and made me realize that it was solid.
I just think it is sad that Drought (Sun) got banned to make room for only 1, mediocre, not-too-used mon, limiting the building opportunities in a tier which is already too limited to me. So please, council, reconsider the ban of Drought and consider getting rid of M-Houndoom if it is too much with Drought support.
And don't come and say that you can run Prankster Sunny day or whatever instead lol, imagine Drizzle being banned in OU and being forced to run either mons that unreliable gets up rain, or Klefki + Tornadus or whatever - not reliable.
And if you feel Sun in UU is ass, and not worth the fuzz, then let me know if u've tried properly building around it and if so, what made it bad. I can only speak for myself, and there is definitely a number of points I have missed.
Peace
During SM, the ban order was actually reversed; MDoom was banned as opposed to Sun. When USUM dropped, the ban was altered, Drought got banned and MDoom was freed. The thing about the MDoom/Sun ban is that it has to be one of them. Sun has 0 viability in the tier, and MDoom has middling viability in the tier. Together, they crush all the buildings, and something had to be done.
I can't exactly tell you why they decided to reverse the ban: whether it was because they wanted to be more in line with other tiers in regards to weather bans or if they just wanted to see what the other side of the ban would offer to the tier. It was done though, and nothing really changed because of it. Regardless, MDoom may not be the most viable mon in the tier, but it's still far more viable than Sun was; to be honest, I don't see the value in re-reversing a previously reversed ban just for the sake of a playstyle that has 0 viability.
The ban was reversed for consistency with the previous ban of Drizzle.
I do agree with a public suspect for Breloom. We've had lots of discussion on it for god knows how long, and Breloom still seems to be the most contentious Pokemon in the tier based on this prolonged discussion. I do worry about what the discussion would look like on the suspect thread though as I feel everything that had to be said was said already.
With the meta changes, would Sun have no viability now? Considering Mega Houndoom loses HP after every turn in sun, it doesn't have much longevity. I would like a retest of Sun
It's hard to speculate because well, we can't playtest a meta with Drought all to easily outside of roomtours. To give a brief recap of why Drought/Mega Houndoom was banned, the combined wallbreaking of Mega Houndoom and Ninetales under Sun was really difficult to deal with, specifically Mega Houndoom since it basically 2 shot the entire tier after 1 Nasty Plot.
MDoom doesn't need longevity, just one turn to NP
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 657-774 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Without MDoom, I really don't see Sun being relevant
I agree! So I've got some mixed news: Lycans and dodmen recently decided to step down from the council. However, we've got several new council members to make up the difference: HT, Kink, Shiba and TDK. Some of these are returning former members of the council who have agreed to resume their roles, while others are long-time UU members and contributors who are getting their first opportunity to sit on the council.
Regarding any potential suspect tests, we're discussing how they might look now that UUPL is in its last stages and May's usage stats should be coming out soon.
This thread has been dead for a week so I thought of sharing fun sets I've been using lately.
I know that Cloyster just got unranked in Viability Rankings, but the only set that was explored is the Shell Smash set. Choice Band Cloyster is something I've been using lately and it's honestly not bad. Even though Cloyster's Attack stat is nowhere near impressive, its ability in conjunction with Icicle Spear, and a boost by Choice Band, actually lets Cloyster hit really hard, just as shown in the replay here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-756480036. For example, with just Icicle Spear, it clean 2HKOs Swampert and 2HKOs uninvested Scizor after Stealth Rock. Furthermore, Cloyster has access to Ice Shard, which can actually make it a pretty dangerous late-game cleaner due to recent metagame trends, such as Hydreigon, Togekiss, Gliscor, Mega Aerodactyl, Serperior, and Latias being everywhere. A perfect example is shown here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-757667129.
While this isn't as good as other Choice Band users, such as Scizor, I still believe it has a very cool niche and I really encourage you to try it out!
I adapted this set from a post I saw in The Next Best Thing. You could say that this set functions the same way screens Tapu Koko does in OU in a sense it is fast, it sets up screens, and it shuts down Defoggers. Unfortunately, Serperior doesn't have either U-turn or Volt Switch, so it is obviously not as effective as Tapu Koko. However, I found this set still pretty effective, mainly at supporting other set-up sweepers. I used this on a team featuring this Serperior, Stealth Rock + Taunt Krookodile, Scizor/Linoone, Z-Earthquake Double Dance Gliscor, CM LO + Thunder Latias, and Substitute + Ice Beam CM Suicune, and I got some really good results, just as shown here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-754484717. Gliscor appreciated Serperior setting up a Light Screen for it in order to sweep. One question I was asked is why not use Klefki over it, which is a good question. Unlike Klefki, Serperior has an offensive presence and Taunt, which makes it more reliable at this job. Oh, it can also support itself: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-754072391! Yeah, this set is walled by Scizor, but Scizor has never been an issue on the team I used thanks to Reflect + Z-Earthquake Gliscor + Suicune. I really think you should give this set a shot, it's really fun.
Cloyster @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
- Rock Blast / Explosion
- Liquidation
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
- Rock Blast / Explosion
- Liquidation
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 210-255 (52.3 - 63.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 135-165 (48 - 58.7%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 188-224 (57.8 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 135-165 (48 - 58.7%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 188-224 (57.8 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Serperior @ Light Clay
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect
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