A lot of my impressions have already been worded better than I could have done it myself in some of the previous posts, but I'd still like to share the thoughts I got from laddering in the last week.
My first impression were that, on paper, Marshadow seems pretty busted.
- Perfect STAB combination, along with good moves to properly take advantage of it in CC and Spectral Thief;
- A speed tier that outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame barring Koko and glass cannons such as Deoxys and Pheromosa;
- A high (though not over-the-top) attack stat;
- Good natural bulk, which allows it to tank a reasonable list of super effective moves (something most Pokémon with the features listed above don't have);
- Technician with the movepool to take advantage of it (Sneak, HP Ice, Rock Tomb);
- Spectral Thief, a move that steals stat boosts and takes them into account before the attack takes place;
- A powerful signature Z-move;
- Immunity to Fake Out.
Focusing on any couple of these really doesn't make it seem busted, because it's all manageable stuff. Just remove some of its bulk, and I doubt it would be nearly as controversial, since it would be one glass cannon among others (albeit a good one, probably). Or remove Spectral Thief's secondary effect, and it's instantly a lot less restrictive in both teambuilding and play. It's only when considering all of these features together that Marshadow feels truly busted, on paper at least. It's fairly easy to isolate a few of them and argue that these problems are manageable, because they are, but for such a high number of great things about Marshadow, the list of its shortcomings is pretty short (none stand out to me actually).
But that's on paper, and my opinion could very well have been swayed by practice, which I think is a lot more important for such decisions.
The team I got my reqs with was a standard-ish team with double Intimidate, on which I slapped a Z-move Marshadow (one of Marshadow's strongest points, imo, is that is can fit with so many teams without disturbing the synergy of the rest of the team, its typing makes it super easy to just slap on as a 6th if you want some offence from that spot). In addition to double Intimidate, I also had Tapu Fini as a check to opposing Marshadows. Here are some thoughts I gathered during those sessions:
- Facing other Marshadows was really not so bad. It basically never came down to the mirror. Double Intimidate is really strong against it, despite the fact it can KO Lando and Incineroar. In that matter, I found it similar to playing around other glass cannons; unless your opponent makes a risky prediction, you don't just let them grab that KO for free. So with a more defensive/balanced team, I didn't really have issues facing Marshadow, and it didn't feel busted. Keep in mind, though, that this was the ladder, so not all games were good. Some people just threw away their Marshadow as a lead, and gained very little from it, so that's pretty telling (either of their skill, or their expectations I guess).
- My own Marshadow, on the other hand, felt pretty amazing. It cleaned up the majority of my games, and I found that having a lot of pivoting options (like Incineroar) to bring it in safely worked really well. I was able to chip their main bulky answer (usually Tapu Fini), put it in range of SS7SS, and then clean up.
- I clearly remember several times where I was about to fire off a very obvious Spectral Thief into a slot, looked at their roster to see what their switch-in was, and realized there was none. Other than the obvious Incineroar, most of the meta has a really hard time switching well into that move. The fact this situation kept repeatedly happening raised a red flag for me, this is not something I'm used to having on any of my teams, and it did feel a bit OP at times.
- Very anecdotal, but I faced a TR team with Lurantis, my opponent played well and got the advantage, their Lurantis ran through most of my team, but I was able to stall out TR and put myself in a situation where I denied a new TR and had Marshadow in front of Lurantis. Obviously, I stole all the boosts and reverse-swept from there. The reason I'm sharing this particular exchange is because it felt super unfair and undeserved. They played better, and without Spectral Thief, this Lurantis would have finished off my team easily, TR or not. One could say they had to be careful not to set up with Lurantis until Marshadow was gone, but if I'm preserving Marshadow anyway and Lurantis can run through my team, it's kind of stupid not to use that tool. I've seen people say that Spectral Thief only really is useful to steal Fini's Calm Minds or a Seed boost, but I think it's actually very oppressive for other forms of more "unconventional" setup, such as Lurantis, and that this should be taken into account when evaluating its impact.
So my impression from getting reqs with that team were that Marshadow is definitely manageable for teams revolving around defensive play, because its damage output can be limited pretty quickly. I saw that some people expect Marshadow to make the tier more offensively-oriented, but I think having it around actually has the opposite effect and encourages double Intimidate and bulk. In particular, as both an Intimidator and a Spectral Thief switch-in, I think Incineroar is just as good, if not better, in such meta; the threat of Close Combat can be played around with a fat team, and the CC drops really help get Marshadow off the field quickly (my Incineroar definitely felt super useful against opposing Marshadow squads).
However, using my own Marshadow against a variety of other teams gave me a very different impression of it. It was the most reliable and consistent cleaner I ever had on a team. This is where all the good features "on paper" felt like they materialized into what I expected. I think this goes to show that using Marshadow vs. facing it sometimes on a the ladder, during this suspect test anyway, might give one a different impression of it. If I hadn't used it myself, I would actually be leaning unban.
But while not entirely broken, the list of its good features, coupled with the potential I think there is to using it well (I fully agree with Human that its potential hasn't been entirely explored), seem like it's just too much to be healthy. When the current meta is probably the best balanced I have personally ever seen, I see no reason to introduce a Pokémon that good, even if it can indeed be manageable.
I do think the tier could still be "fine" (relatively balanced) after it's introduction, but definitely a bit less so than it currently is, and it seems counterintuitive to me to have the outcome of any suspect test result in a less balanced, less healthy metagame, when suspect tests are usually held precisely to make the tier more balanced and healthier (whether or not this is announced as the official goal, it remains a fair expectation).
My first impression were that, on paper, Marshadow seems pretty busted.
- Perfect STAB combination, along with good moves to properly take advantage of it in CC and Spectral Thief;
- A speed tier that outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame barring Koko and glass cannons such as Deoxys and Pheromosa;
- A high (though not over-the-top) attack stat;
- Good natural bulk, which allows it to tank a reasonable list of super effective moves (something most Pokémon with the features listed above don't have);
- Technician with the movepool to take advantage of it (Sneak, HP Ice, Rock Tomb);
- Spectral Thief, a move that steals stat boosts and takes them into account before the attack takes place;
- A powerful signature Z-move;
- Immunity to Fake Out.
Focusing on any couple of these really doesn't make it seem busted, because it's all manageable stuff. Just remove some of its bulk, and I doubt it would be nearly as controversial, since it would be one glass cannon among others (albeit a good one, probably). Or remove Spectral Thief's secondary effect, and it's instantly a lot less restrictive in both teambuilding and play. It's only when considering all of these features together that Marshadow feels truly busted, on paper at least. It's fairly easy to isolate a few of them and argue that these problems are manageable, because they are, but for such a high number of great things about Marshadow, the list of its shortcomings is pretty short (none stand out to me actually).
But that's on paper, and my opinion could very well have been swayed by practice, which I think is a lot more important for such decisions.
The team I got my reqs with was a standard-ish team with double Intimidate, on which I slapped a Z-move Marshadow (one of Marshadow's strongest points, imo, is that is can fit with so many teams without disturbing the synergy of the rest of the team, its typing makes it super easy to just slap on as a 6th if you want some offence from that spot). In addition to double Intimidate, I also had Tapu Fini as a check to opposing Marshadows. Here are some thoughts I gathered during those sessions:
- Facing other Marshadows was really not so bad. It basically never came down to the mirror. Double Intimidate is really strong against it, despite the fact it can KO Lando and Incineroar. In that matter, I found it similar to playing around other glass cannons; unless your opponent makes a risky prediction, you don't just let them grab that KO for free. So with a more defensive/balanced team, I didn't really have issues facing Marshadow, and it didn't feel busted. Keep in mind, though, that this was the ladder, so not all games were good. Some people just threw away their Marshadow as a lead, and gained very little from it, so that's pretty telling (either of their skill, or their expectations I guess).
- My own Marshadow, on the other hand, felt pretty amazing. It cleaned up the majority of my games, and I found that having a lot of pivoting options (like Incineroar) to bring it in safely worked really well. I was able to chip their main bulky answer (usually Tapu Fini), put it in range of SS7SS, and then clean up.
- I clearly remember several times where I was about to fire off a very obvious Spectral Thief into a slot, looked at their roster to see what their switch-in was, and realized there was none. Other than the obvious Incineroar, most of the meta has a really hard time switching well into that move. The fact this situation kept repeatedly happening raised a red flag for me, this is not something I'm used to having on any of my teams, and it did feel a bit OP at times.
- Very anecdotal, but I faced a TR team with Lurantis, my opponent played well and got the advantage, their Lurantis ran through most of my team, but I was able to stall out TR and put myself in a situation where I denied a new TR and had Marshadow in front of Lurantis. Obviously, I stole all the boosts and reverse-swept from there. The reason I'm sharing this particular exchange is because it felt super unfair and undeserved. They played better, and without Spectral Thief, this Lurantis would have finished off my team easily, TR or not. One could say they had to be careful not to set up with Lurantis until Marshadow was gone, but if I'm preserving Marshadow anyway and Lurantis can run through my team, it's kind of stupid not to use that tool. I've seen people say that Spectral Thief only really is useful to steal Fini's Calm Minds or a Seed boost, but I think it's actually very oppressive for other forms of more "unconventional" setup, such as Lurantis, and that this should be taken into account when evaluating its impact.
So my impression from getting reqs with that team were that Marshadow is definitely manageable for teams revolving around defensive play, because its damage output can be limited pretty quickly. I saw that some people expect Marshadow to make the tier more offensively-oriented, but I think having it around actually has the opposite effect and encourages double Intimidate and bulk. In particular, as both an Intimidator and a Spectral Thief switch-in, I think Incineroar is just as good, if not better, in such meta; the threat of Close Combat can be played around with a fat team, and the CC drops really help get Marshadow off the field quickly (my Incineroar definitely felt super useful against opposing Marshadow squads).
However, using my own Marshadow against a variety of other teams gave me a very different impression of it. It was the most reliable and consistent cleaner I ever had on a team. This is where all the good features "on paper" felt like they materialized into what I expected. I think this goes to show that using Marshadow vs. facing it sometimes on a the ladder, during this suspect test anyway, might give one a different impression of it. If I hadn't used it myself, I would actually be leaning unban.
But while not entirely broken, the list of its good features, coupled with the potential I think there is to using it well (I fully agree with Human that its potential hasn't been entirely explored), seem like it's just too much to be healthy. When the current meta is probably the best balanced I have personally ever seen, I see no reason to introduce a Pokémon that good, even if it can indeed be manageable.
I do think the tier could still be "fine" (relatively balanced) after it's introduction, but definitely a bit less so than it currently is, and it seems counterintuitive to me to have the outcome of any suspect test result in a less balanced, less healthy metagame, when suspect tests are usually held precisely to make the tier more balanced and healthier (whether or not this is announced as the official goal, it remains a fair expectation).
