np SV UU Stage 3.1 - 212 (Scizor Suspect & Iron Leaves Quickban)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello,

I recorded a video with an amazing player, aim, to discuss a game they and the wonderful Jamvad played vs a great UU member MavRott.

The video is here obviously I didn't pick the title (
) but I wanted to share on Smogon the "replay analysis" text that drove most of the video here - hopefully it is helpful to people taking reqs seriously and trying to get them:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1831907409-hm7g6hnehyisk4b432rkb5uwtqv9lv4pw

Match up and Preview

The first thing I notice is that Hariyama basically has no natural counter from the opponent - if the opponent s running standard sets and doesn't use their tera, none of their mons can comfortably beat Hariyama because Guts prevents Talonflame from being an effective check and Bulk Up's defense boosts stops Hippowdon and Talonflame from doing much damage.

Another important consideration here is who wins the hazard game, because on preview, it appears both sides may have Spikes and SR. It appears Jam's team has the superior hazard control because Brambleghast can spin easily against Hippo and at least bluff a grass move vs Gastrodon.

No doubt the opponent also has ways to make progress, but none of their win cons can make progress by themselves. This concept of self sufficiency is important and requires you to understand the meta, not just a single Pokemon. Jam's Hariyama is self sufficient because it can beat it's "checks" alone - it can boost vs Hippowdon/Talonflame/Tera Ghost Wochien, remove it's item, and simply beat it 1v1 in a last Pokemon situation.

MavRotts are not as self sufficient (most concepts are best thought of on a scale, not a discrete yes or no) - Pawmot for example is always going to have trouble breaking Scream Tail because Scream Tail has recovery and outspeeds and KOs Pawmot. It's going to take hazards and perhaps item removal for Pawmot to overpower Scream Tail - i.e., it needs help from it's teammate.

From these points - identifying win cons, identifying who wins the hazard war, and identifying who has the superior win condition, we can safely say Jam has a sizeable match up advantage.

Turn by turn

Turn 1

Magnezone is a reasonable choice to start the lead but arguably not the most principled one. The principle in question is that when you have the match up advantage, you want to be able to play as flexibly as possible. Why is Magnezone inflexible then? Because in order to make progress at all vs Gastrodon and to some extent Hippowdon, it will have to expend its tera. While Magnezone is highly likely to Tera grass in this match up, if we're following principled play we probably don't want to potentially commit to tera on turn one.

That said, Magnezone is very likely to Tera eventually, so that's why it's only "arguably" not the best idea here.

The choice of Volt Switch vs Wo-Chien is obvious and good, but Hariyama I find to be a clear mistake here.

Hariyama as discussed previously is the main win condition and can win practically by itself (self sufficient!) - no reason to make it's life moderately harder by removing Leftovers.

One metagame specific match up that isn't intuitive is that Brambleghast often switches into Wo-Chien - although it loses long run, it can still set up hazard. Another option was Talonflame - it's important to know when you can give up boots, this goes back to the hazard war discussion - if Brambleghast can nearly guarantee rocks are always off, then Talonflame's boots are not actually needed. Of course Wo-Chien being tera ghost does mean rocks would be more difficult to get off - but Brambleghats can still break Wo-Chien with Shadow Balls at that point. Both of these options would have been superior to letting the win con lose it's item.

Turn 2 - 4

Nothing much to say here except it's important to get information - we know now Hippowdon can Roar out Hariyama, Hippowdon are frequently running Stone Edge over Roar these days so this is important information.

Turn 5 - 7

The first critical moment of this game occurs at turn 7, which is a speed tie deciding who's Talonflame live. The real question is how do you weigh this decision. Clearly you knew what was at stake (roughly), as Joey said in the video he'd nearly win the game if he just won the tie. We go back to the same principle we discussed earlier - the person who has an advantage should be trying to play as flexibly as possible. In that sense, although the speed tie worked out, it wasn't the most principled play.

Turn 8 - 9

Safe solid play. Notice the priority here is to play with SR almost permanently off the field instead of Spiking, a similar principle is at play here, the better the position is, the less double edged you want to make it. Playing with no hazards is less double edged than both sides having hazards, hence the spin instead of Spikes.

Turn 10 - 17

Turn 11 is a nice example of long term planning - yes of course Drain Punch will do more to Wo-Chien than Knock Off, but removing Leftovers long term is going to be much more helpful than one time Drain Punch damage, which gets healed off by Leftovers fairly quickly. Everything else is very straightforward here.

Turn 18

This is another critical moment that really does come back to bite Jam. There to get minor damage here but lose Bramble, which means MavRott wins the hazard war. It's about weighing costs and benefit - not only does Jam lose the hazard war because Brambleghast dies, but he also loses it from a position where he should have been completely winning it, or at least completely able to stop SR from going up and he only got 1 spikes up instead of 3, which should have been fairly easy to do vs Wo-Chien and Hippowdon.

That's the cost side of the equation. The benefit he gets? Best case scenario, he gets Shadow Ball damage while Pawmot mispredicts and uses Double Shock. That's hardly any benefit at all, especially as Pawmot often uses Rest anyways to heal off this chip.

The superior choice here was obviously to go Scream Tails which would have forced Pawmot to use up it's tera to have a chance of beating Scream, and even if that happened, Pawmot would still have to predict around Gastrodon and Jam could still sack Brambleghast later, to get a similar position but having made MavRott use up his Tera, a fantastic concession.

Turn 19 - 31

The match shifts considerably here, from Jam previously having a very sizeable advantage when Brambleghast was alive to the position being roughly level or even Mavrott being slightly favored.

Basically this series of turns can show us two basic but very important concepts - order of operations and "fishing."

Order of operations is conceptually easy enough to know - sometimes, somethings are clearly more important than others. For both sides, setting up hazards with Gastrodon is more important than "fishing", going for hax/depleting recovery. We know this because there is a guaranteed and significant benefit from setting up hazards, moreso than fishing. Things that are guaranteed and beneficial tend to be higher in the order of operations than things that are riskier and less beneficial. Setting up hazards, especially if the opponent lacks hazard control, is almost always very high in order of operations.

Fishing is what Pokemon players describe as going for luck - but it still can be strategic. Fishing tends to be most strategic when it happens over a long sequence of moves which gives more opportunities for hax to happen. One Ice Beam is unlikely to freeze, the seven Jam used were much more likely to get at least one freeze. It was smart for Jam to go for it, but MavRott when for an even better fish with Sludge Bomb, which damaged Jam so much he couldn't keep going for the freezes.

Turn 32 - 47

Not a lot to talk about but it is an example of being able to recognize losing and winning battles. Jam realizes Scream Tail can beat Wo-Chien so he stays in with it as long as possible vs Wo-Chien but then MavRott knows this too so he switches out, after removing Scream Tail's leftovers.

Turn 48-67

Again not much to say, both Gastrodon are just burning each other out and neither side has a much better reply.

Turn 68 - 77

It's clearly towards the end of the game now and the most important principle towards the end of the game is to not play by principle - and simply try to calculate the best way to win towards the end. Unfortunately, that doesn't help that much in choosing who to revenge the Gastrodon - if Talon comes in, it has to contend with Scarf Rotom-C (it still appears to be Scarf here) coming in and getting a KO with Volt or Tbolt

Turn 78

It's not always easy when to decide to tera but it's very obvious here that Tera Wo Chien is critical to having a much better match up vs Scream Tail and Talonflame.

Turn 87

Very important and good turn by MavRott here - it could have backfired obviously if Jam used Brave Bird, but it didn't. This is Mav's logic - he doesn't want to get in a position where he's pressured because your plays become more obvious when pressured.

He didn't want to swap out later Rotom-C on the Talonflame when Wo-Chien was more pressured, it would have been easy to stay in on turn 87 with Wo-Chien and Ruination and just delay the decision, but MavRott knows he has to switch out eventually. So he did so here, knowing Jam is less likely to call it out when Mav wasn't forced to switch out.

Turn 90 - end

At this point is what I like to call an end game. Different players will have different definitions of commonly used terms (like end game) but I strive to be consistent when using this language. An end game in this case means when there is an objectively best move for a player for the rest of the game (it can be an endgame for one player but not the other). MavRott is at the end game (or very very very close to it) because he clearly has to Rest then fish for Sleep Talk rolls on the Magnezone, which he does ultimately get.

As a technical note, remember that Encore can't force struggle this gen if your opponent has other moves still, so that's why Jam forfeits.
 
Hi I just wanted to give a few thoughts on the current meta.

:Scizor:
First, I think Scizor is not broken, and I share a lot of the sentiments already stated in this post. I never had much of a problem with it during my reqs run, and with Rain dominating the ladder it's hard for it to really go off most games. It's definitely not as good as it was pre-drops, and this meta is constantly changing too much for me to think Scizor needs to go. No reliable recovery like previous gens makes it something you can reasonably anticipate and it's very manageable so long as you don't mindlessly use will-o before you opp has revealed tera fire.

:Floatzel: :Wo-Chien:
Next, regarding other "issues" in the tier, I think Floatzel should be banned or suspected. Rain is so dominant of a playstyle right now and a lot it stems from you being absolutely required to check Floatzel, and besides Aloma there's no sure fire checks to it. Slowbro @ max def still gets 2HKOd by Tera Water Wave Crash, Gastro takes too much from non-water moves, and Water Absorb Quagsire is just asking to get Scizor'd. It's not that Floatzel is the absolute best mon in Rain (some may say Golduck is more effective), it's that it's so restrictive in trying to account for it, and if it was gone I think Rain would still remain a viable playstyle yet somewhat easier to handle if you don't have to worry about everything dying to Wave Crash. Skewda would "replace" Floatzel if it was gone but it's not as bad, and a lot of rain teams have both Skewda + Floatzel which is more of a nightmare so removing Floatzel still helps ease this a bit. I don't think Rain is "broken" at the moment, but it's clear it's dominating the ladder and forcing a lot of playstyles to run very specific archetypes in order to not lose to it. Banning Floatzel eases this up just enough to make the meta less centralized by rain but also retain the playstyle's effectiveness.

On to Wo-Chien, I think this mon really needs to be looked at more closely. I'm not saying to ban it but we should really put it under a lens because from a lot of games I've seen on ladder and in tours, this thing just blanket checks like 60% of the tier, and then 20% more of the tier if it teras. Other than Gengar and Mimikyu, there's nothing that can definitively answer this both in regular form and tera ghost. And even those two can get ganked by a surprise tera. It can sit on almost everything with its rest talk set, and I've seen so many Wo Chien v. Wo Chien mirrors using Knock and resting that it reminds me of Hypno mirrors in GSC. It's holding back a lot of the tier from developing positively and, while that's maybe not a reason to ban it, I think it should at least be on the radar and looked to see if it may be a problem.

I don't think anything else is particularly problematic or suspect worthy so I won't get into it here with the other stuff. I just wanted to give a brief opinion on Scizor since it's the subject of this suspect, and also relay some thoughts on the other two things since I would imagine the Council will be evaluating the meta very shortly after the Scizor vote and before Open starts.
 
Honestly a lot of :scizor:'s unhealthiness can be attributed to one massive issue for the tier as a whole: Tera. The big reason as to why Scizor is being suspected in the first place is its Tera Fire set, which lets it basically "no u" its biggest counters (Fire-types and burns) so it can steamroll teams, especially in the late game. Now this set isn't 100% infallible, as bulky grounds like :hippowdon: and :donphan: can take a +2 trailblaze before punishing it, but they need to be healthy in order to do so. Tera is also a big reason as to why :sandy-shocks: is as unhealthy as it is rn, to say nothing of its ability to bolster several offensive threats in the tier such as :floatzel: and :gengar: and, as BigFatMantis mentioned above, allow :wo-chien: to blanket check like 80% of the tier.
That being said, I don't think tera is broken enough to warrant a full-on ban. Tera at team preview would help immensely, removing many of the guessing games Tera forces. Having one designated Tera Pokemon per team would be a more drastic option but could bring Tera back down to the level of Megas from ORAS.
 
Last edited:
:scizor: i used to think scizor is super duper broken and needing banning, but from playing the meta a bit more i have come to think thats its pretty reasonable to handle, you just have to play a bit more proactively into scizor teams and not allow it to get a completely free setup turn. also using your tera defensively often stops scizor from doing anything crazy. i have been spamming tera water salamence as my main scizor check and it pretty reliably shuts down scizor even taking tera fire into account since you can live 2 bullet punches or a bullet punch and a quick attack from +1 life orb scizor. while dealing with in practise is generally fine, i do think its pretty restrictive for teambuilding having to run taunt talonflame or mence on every team makes teambuilding a bit samey. another overcentralised scizor meta, bleh.

:wo-chien: the woat brings some big positives to the tier aswell as some big negatives. the snail is probably the best sandy shocks check in the game (ban sandy shocks) which is a huge positive when shocks is so common and so threatening. wo chien is also a good backup check to dragon dancers and other physical setup sweepers with the tera ghost foul play rest talk set, this set also does pretty well into rain threats like floatzel which is a nice bonus. now the downsides of wo chien, if its wo-chien balance vs wo-chien balance games often turn into a drawn out stallfest and it makes games pretty unfun at time, he makes way too much progress on the opposing team with knock off and leech seed and foul play and doesnt die due to rest/leech seed + protect. i would not think wo-chien (or most of the things i dislike about this meta) so broken if it werent for tera but tera ghost wo-chien pushes him over the edge into broken territory for me.

:pelipper: rain! i do not consider rain to be broken, i think its pretty easily manageable with two of the best pokemon in the tier, tyranitar and hppowdon, setting sand and plenty of top pokemon resisting/being immune to water type moves, also pokemon like lucario completely own rain teams if they ever get an opportuinity to boost. rain just feels like a matchup fish to me and it doesnt even have many good matchups

:sandy shocks: i still think this needs to be banned but i already wrote a post on it and i dont want to write another

and that wraps up my thoughts on the current uu meta :blobthumbsup:
 
Don't wanna derail the thread too much but I think the prevalence of wo chien rest talk mirrors are seriously harming the current meta, the fact this mon is so hard to switch into that the optimal play is very often going to your own wo chien means that games are heavily swung by which wo chien beats the other or who can outlast opposing wo chien better. I don't think its the biggest issue with the current meta but in my view its definitely on the edge of being broken
 
gonna join the post train wowza

:scizor: while I did also think it may have been broken as it was a bit annoying to check with tera, im not gonna lie this mon sucks ass lmao it either does nothing or sweeps, talon always threatens burn and even if it tera fires its not really that hard to rk as long as u arent so low and dont give it trailblaze boosts, i went 28-4 on the suspect test using rain + a balance with talon and choiced quaq and sandy and it never was really troubling, theres a lot of teras that exist that can pretty easily check it too like ghost wo-chien, poison quag, water/steel mence, etc etc.

:wo-chien: this lil fella right here is both god and the most annoying thing ever at the same time, it checks a lot of stuff like quag, sandy, the dragon dancers, sciz if u tera, etc. and that would be actually healthy for the tier, but the amount of wo-chien vs wo-chien i played is quite concerning, its fat bc of base stats + ability, annoying because of knock/foul play/leech/ruination/others and unkillable because it can either get leech + protect recovery or just straight up resttalk. If it could stay as a grass dark i would not have any problem with it, as it is a pretty bad typing, but this motherfucker can tera to ghost poison fairy steel whatever typing its probably going to end up working, i dont think its THAT unhealthy but I'd keep it under the radar probably

:quaquaval: I definitely thought the duck was broken, but in reality it's not (or at least for now), thing with this mon is the variety of sets it can run, band, defensive spin, bu, non choiced AoA, etc. Most either have 4mss or are very prediction reliant, that's for granted, but I still think the unpredictability is annoying, not bannable though unless some crazy ass broken set appears with tera

:pelipper: it's as simple as rain being very bad for the builder but not so bad in game as the checks it has are actually really good checks, I definitely hate it for the cheese factor tho so get it gone ty

Not gonna talk about sandy last as i think it's okay, BUT

Tera: this little fucker makes the not so broken into broken (or almost broken). examples: scizor, iron leaves, wo-chien, iron hands? Basically, I hate this thing, not saying yall should ban it just a little thing i wanted to say

In conclusion:
Bug: Not broken
Snail: Almost broken
Duck: Not broken
Rain: I hate it
Tera: Bad mechanic
Hotel: Trivago

have a nice day
 
I'm going to vote to ban Scizor because I find the SD Trailblaze Close Combat BP set too strong. It synergnizes well with both Wish users, Scream Tail and Alomomola, so it's actually extremely hard to take down.

I think there are about three Pokemon in the tier that reliably beat it without Tera - Talonflame/Salamence/Tauros Fire. Having hard counters is a bit surprising for something arguably broken (Pawmot for example has essentially 0 hard counters yet is not the one being tested), but considering how strong of a sweeper Scizor is, it's just too obnoxious for me.

I do agree banning Scizor would probably make it harder to build simply because Scizor's priority is a great cheese check, but I don't vote to ban based on whether it improves the meta or makes building easier, I vote based on whether Scizor is OP or not and I do find it OP (and if the tier is worse, then we continue tiering).

I don't think it's okay to have something that simply destroys practically every single defensive Pokemon in the tier + it can sweep. It does get a lot of set up in the tier, techs just haven't popped up yet (have there been any Flamethrower Wish Scream Tail in UUPL? I don't think I've seen any). Tinkaton, Decidueye/other grasses, Gastrodon/other waters all seem to be fodder for it. Perhaps the only tech I've really seen for Scizor recently is Foul Play Wo-Chien although obviously FP has other uses anyways.

For those of you who think building is hard in the tier and perhaps that the tier is overloaded with threats but don't think Scizor is broken - ask yourself is there a clear consensus on what is broken? Or is the most likely result of not banning Scizor, simply continuing to not ban? We have people saying rain is broken and rain is mid, and that opinion for Quaq and Sandy and Gengar as well.

Who here can clearly say what the council is going to suspect and ban next? Most of us probably can't because most of us don't agree on what's broken. We should start with Scizor IMO - it's clearly a unique sweeper in the tier with SD + strong Priority + ability to set up on the majority of the tier's bulky mons.
 
offense gives it little room to sd (shocks, own scizor in some cases, quaquaval, mmq), wo-chien is one of the most spammed mons ever along w mence and fplay/tera mence respectively put you in a bind very easily without losing much of anything on their end. cb has terrible longevity and is bait for burns / cant really progress vs wishers and mence. all talon teams p much have one of or more of the following with them that put pressure on scizor: foul play wo chien (scizor never beats this), sandy shocks (with talon the scizor player is hard pressed to sweep anything bc of sandys resistence to bp and the talon player gets a free u-turn usually into sandy bc even if u do trailblaze on sandy tera exists and can do insane damage to it w epower making it struggle to sd on anything), tera quagsire (also never beating this), tera pdef gastro (never beating this), among others like hippo which also accomplish the same thing as the trailblaze interaction i said earlier as hippo also lives +2 lo trailblaze and does hella dmg to it w eq). i have only seen bad players/bad plays lose to scizor. its not bad, its great in fact and punishes lazy building, but it is far from broken as its issues are exploitable and have been exploited

- disorganized thoughts on scizor

using your tera to beat scizor is fine, there are many pokemon that demand this in the tier and its the least forced one out of them all (shocks) so i think its fine to bring up tera as a valid argument against scizor's brokenness as there are plenty of options defensively for it


think this tier has a lot to improve upon for it to be stable - idrk what the right approach is but i think shocks should be prioritized over anything else after the results are released. def the most restrictive/broken mon in the tier in my opinion atm bc of how little ''loss'' matchups it has and how consistent it as at breaking apart teams and leaving room for pokemon like scizor and friends to clean house
 
Hi, before I vote on the Scizor suspect, I want to explore Scizor's impact on the metagame.

Analysis of :Scizor:'s Sets

Scizor has a plethora of primarily offensive sets it can utilise.
Scizor @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire/Steel/Normal
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Trailblaze/Quick Attack
Scizor @ Choice Band/ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Thief/Quick Attack
Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Protective Pads/Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel/Fire/Water
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Thief/Tera Blast
Scizor @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal/Steel
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Rest
- Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Facade/Sleep Talk
Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel/Fire
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Defog


SD + 3 Attacks :Scizor: is one of its most prolific sets, the broken element of these sets comes with the addition of Tera. Tera Fire allows it to set up on common checks such as :Talonflame: and :Salamence:. Tera Steel enables it to muscle past bulky revenge killers. Tera Normal allows it to break past bulky electrics such as :rotom-mow:, :rotom-heat: and :sandy-shocks: with quick attack and also gives un-resisted priority vs rain teams.

Despite being Scizor's most common Tera type, Tera Fire Scizor has some fundamental flaws in this metagame. The prevalence of rain (especially on ladder) means that Tera Fire Scizor essentially cannot use its Tera and cannot boost its resisted bullet punch. Intimidate special mence sets have begun tech-ing on earthquake which severely punishes tera fire Scizor. However, Tera types such as Normal can bypass these flaws whilst taking advantage of Tera Fire's presence dissuading natural counterplay like Talonflame using will-o-wisp immediately on Scizor.

Wish and Healing Wish support is also very easy to pair with Scizor and can allow scizor to break-through and weaken checks such as :talonflame:, :rotom-heat: and :rotom-mow: which often need to trade their life or most of their HP to beat Scizor, who will be able to "revive" itself for an easy round 2. This factor further complicates counterplay to Scizor as you essentially need to be prepared to beat Scizor twice or prevent a safe wish pass into Scizor.

I've also begun to use Non-3 Attack SD sets using Rest in order to abuse the naturally good bulk of Scizor and as a way to bypass passive checks such as :alomomola:, :quagsire: and :talonflame: which rely on passive damage and status to beat Scizor. Overall I believe that the Swords Dance sets are generally unhealthy with the counterplay to Scizor widely varying based on its usage of Tera and the assistance of its teammates.

Scizor can also run a choice band set to become a powerful revenge killer and a threatening pivot, however, this set is very prone to Flame body burns and rocky helmet damage from the relatively common:alomomola:. A pivot set with protective pads or heavy-duty boots can give risk-free momentum and increase Scizor's survivability at the cost of its revenge-killing capabilities. These sets are generally unable to break past common defensive walls or SD Scizor's classic checks but can do their role in giving momentum and revenge-killing sweepers. Therefore, imo the choice band/pivot sets can be considered "healthy" in the current meta.

Finally, Scizor can use Defog utility sets, taking advantage of its access to a STAB u-turn alongside hazard removal. However, Defog Scizor is much worse than the metagame standards :talonflame: and :decidueye: which are able to do all the same functions as scizor whilst being able to roost off damage and threaten common setters such as :gastrodon:, :hippowdon: and :quagsire:. Defog Scizor and defensive scizor sets in general are reliant on wish-pass for longevity whilst struggling to hold-off offensive threats over the entire course of the game.


Is :Scizor: healthy for the metagame?

1). Pokemon offensively checked by Scizor

Thanks to Scizor's access to strong technician boosted priority, most frail offensive threats including :maushold:, :gengar:, :mimikyu:, :weavile: and :polteageist: are able to be easily checked with a life orb/ choice band boosted bullet punch. After a +2 even bulky threats such as :Iron Jugulis:, :Slither Wing: and DD :Salamence: can be checked with bullet punch if they are chipped with hazards or Scizor is tera boosted. With tera normal Scizor can even help check rain sweepers. Pivot sets are able to heavily pressure defensively walls such as :Wo-Chien: and :Slowbro:, possibly forcing them to commit tera to prevent volt-turn spam.
Despite this, Scizor is not unique in this quality, pokemon such as :slither wing: and :lokix: can offensively check the same threats (except mimikyu) and function as pivots, with a much lower chance of them abusing tera + SD to sweep entire teams. The aforementioned pokemon can also fit on the same sort of team styles Scizor can, and as previously mentioned, Scizor's defensive utility outside of priority + u-turn is not common or defining for most teams.

2). Addressing Scizor in the builder

Bulky intimidate and fire type pokemon like :Talonflame: , :tauros-paldea-blaze: and :salamence: can effectively check most Scizor sets, however the correct tera type can easily flip the matchup. Teams which rely on one of these mons to handle Scizor are prone to being completely swept after a tera.
Electric types such as :sandy shocks:, the rotoms and even :oricorio-pom pom: resist Scizor's stab priority and can threaten in return with powerful stab attacks, a burn or a well-timed trick. However, trailblaze or tera normal SD Scizor sets can seriously threaten these Pokemon. Not to mention :sandy-shocks: and the rotoms are not great switch-ins if the opponent turns out to be a (choice band) pivot set. Due to the lack of longetivity on most electrics they cannot be the solo-answer to Scizor and must be paired with a more stable check such as :Talonflame: or :Salamence:

Bulky water-types like :alomomola:, :quagsire: and :slowbro: fear trailblaze but can quickly wear down most Scizor sets w/ passive damage, :Pelipper: is a key exception able to handle most sets Scizor sets if it is healthy enough. (Fast) water types when paired with bulky fire types mentioned above can effectively outspeed or out-prioritise the common tera-fire SD sets and punish the Scizor for committing tera vs the bulky fire type.
Rain teams come with a built-in defensive check to Scizor in :Pelipper:, not to mention that most rain abusers can resist a bullet punch and OHKO it in return. Rain teams still must be careful of tera normal sets which can tank rain-boosted priority attacks and threaten to OHKO most rain sweepers after a +2.

Overall, whilst pivot Scizor and SD Scizor w/o access to tera can be effectively handled by common metagame staples. The versatility of its SD 3 attack sets can often mean you need multiple checks to Scizor on a team. The prevalence of rain often means you will be punished for running defensive fire types such as :rotom-heat: and :tauros-paldea-fire: over their water resistant counter parts which happen to be worse into most Scizor sets, which will force you to add secondary checks to Scizor. Furthermore, rain and :sandy-shocks: are forcing teams to run more passive pokemon like :gastrodon:, water absorb :quagsire:, and frail grasses which scizor can abuse for free SDs. Some team archetypes like Rain are naturally resistant to Scizor, whilst other playstyles such as screens HO are naturally very weak to Scizor and cannot really afford to use checks outside of :oricorio-pom pom: and :sandy-shocks: to handle Scizor. Builders looking to make a non HO/ Rain team are in a tough struggle to not be weak to one of either :sandy-shocks:, :scizor:, rain or :gengar: which are all versatile enough to have very few dedicated checks.

3). Pokemon defensively checked by Scizor

Due to the loss of roost and thereby its longevity, Scizor is not able to defensively check as many pokemon as it could in previous generations. Scizor can still use its good defensive type to pivot into predicted poison moves from (choice locked) :gengar: and :grafaiai: and weak attacks from :weavile: and :mimikyu: and promptly scare them out.
Scizor can also wall + threaten fairy types such as :sylveon: , :florges: and choice locked :gardevoir: and non flamethrower :scream-tail: , although most steel types in this metagame can achieve this feat. In an arguably unhealthy way, Scizor can use these pokemon to setup free SD's and potentially end a game just because an opponent used one of these pokemon to pick up a KO or to get a wish off.


Concluding remarks: Do I think :Scizor: Should be banned?

Yes, the versatility of Scizor thanks to tera + its strong initial typing + stabs + access to strong choice band sets, makes it a true nightmare to prepare for. There is currently a split opinion on whether to ban Scizor with some believing it is just straight-up bad. I think the many in the "Scizor is bad camp" have laddered either using Rain to get reqs and therefore could beat the standard Scizor sets, or alternatively, they ran into a lot of rain teams on ladder which meant their (tera fire) scizor was useless. The current metagame forces you to use pokemon which are basically designed to give Scizor free SD's such as Gastrodon. Giving Scizor a free +2 essentially forces you to tera which is a stupidly abusable interaction or to sacrifice a mon which means scizor has essentially completed its . This metagame has dozens of pokemon which can force a certain pokemon, tera interactions or abuse certain bulky walls.
With how restricted building is,I think most players will give up making robust teams and instead rely on catching pokemon like Scizor off guard with random/ rare tera's to bypass it, or to use MU fishy teams like Rain to have a natural advantage.
I dont think scizors "cheese resistance" is much of a lose considering that the ultimate cheese , Rain ,has replaced most HO teams on ladder/tours and pokemon such as lucario, lokix and slitherwing are decent replacements for countering cheese including rain.
I also want to stress that just banning scizor wont suddenly make UU easy to build in and I would like to see other metagame staples like :sandy-shocks: and :gengar: tested.

Ty for reading this long AF post

TL;DR: Ban Scizor
 
Bonjour! After a lot of productive and interesting discussion around Scizor, and reasonable outcries to suspect Sandy Shocks, I'm aware that complaining about Wo-Chien can come off as a little odd. But I've given the slug man a lot of thought over hundreds of games and I can't help but feel like it's not a very good Pokemon for the metagame-specifically, that it's overcentralizing and also very broken.

Going off sheer stats alone Wo-Chien is one of the bulkiest defensive Pokemon in the entire metagame; on the special side it's only outclassed by Florges and Blissey, while on the physical side it's ability makes it comparable to AVALUGG. People really underestimate just how strong Tablets of Ruin is. It's statline allows it to be either a dedicated physical wall, special wall or a mix of both, but it's bulk is never really lacking either way. It's very common for fully specially defensive Wo-Chien's to serve as a backup physical wall due to how powerful Tablets of Ruin is.

0 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 48-57 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 55-66 (14.7 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO

On top of it's already fantastic mixed defenses, Leech Seed in combination with Leftovers makes for a mon that's extremely sturdy despite not having any reliable recovery, and this is assuming it's not using Rest outright. Wo-Chien's base typing is admittedly rather poor on it's own merit (which is why Wo-Chien wasn't considered very good for a few months); UU is filled to the brim with bug, fighting and flying types to take advantage of it, undermining it's good stats. However, it's far from being outright bad, as it can take on most grass-types with ease and keeps Sandy Shocks on it's toes. Overall, Wo-Chien's sheer defensive use, separate from Terastalization, is the worst part about it...and it's significantly above average.
Wo-Chien has the best utility in the tier, full stop.

Leech Seed + Protect is fantastic for spreading passive damage, especially in combination with hazards to punish switches. Rest makes it the best (and one of very few) status absorbers in the metagame. The aforementioned Protect is great for scouting out the moves of many Choice item users, and the occasional stun spore can be a bitch, but all of this pales in comparison to Knock Off, Foul Play and Ruination. Wo-Chien is the best and most consistent spreader of knock off in the entire meta game, being able to spam the move with impunity due to it's longevity. Ruination is extremely annoying in it's own right, forcing even defensive switches to start burning through recovery moves while seriously damaging everything else. Foul Play makes setting up on Wo-Chien with almost every single physical attacker impossible because it's too bulky to ever be easily KO'd while Foul Play can do a shit ton of damage.

These options in isolation are already fearsome, but put together it makes Wo-Chien a bastion of utility in Gen 9 UU. It's by and large the least passive defensive Pokemon in the tier and racks up damage like literally nothing else thanks to leech seed, ruination, foul play and knock off (which reduces counterplay to the already strong hazards in the metagame), making it almost impossible to take advantage of. Even if you switch in a Pokemon and forced it out, it may have setup up leech seed and can now protect to recover a 1/4 of it's health (and taking yours), or get rid of your item, or reduce you to half health, or stun you. In less fancy terms, it's bullshit.
Amazing bulk and fantastic utility already make Wo-Chien a great Pokemon, but I think what really pushes it over the edge for me is how shockingly good it is at terastilizing, specifically with Tera Poison Wo-Chien. Not only is it the best defensive Tera Captain I'd argue it's the best user of the mechanic as a whole in UU (yes, even above the ancient magnets). The reason why, though, is fairly simple:

1682713147177.png

Poison gives it an immunity to toxic (one of the few things that could wear it down overtime), resistances to poison, fairy, fighting and bug (invalidating an insane amount of it's counterplay) and is only weak to ground and psychic, which (a) is resisted and does no damage to Wo-Chien, respectively and (b) are very uncommon attacking types; there are only four offensive psychic types in the tier (two of which are in RU) and there's one good offensive ground type. One.

There isn't any defensive tera in UU that comes even close to being as good as this, but it's made exponentially worse due to Wo-Chien's raw defenses; Wo-Chien's sole weakness was it's typing, and now not only can it choose a much better one, almost everything that beats tera poison loses to dark/grass Wo-Chien. It makes all of the already-incredible stuff before so much worse and the counterplay to this looks fucking dreadful.

In addition, while every Pokemon in the tier benefits from good teammate support, Wo-Chien's startling lack of weaknesses makes it extremely splashable and also very easy to back up; it's not hard to patch up holes when it's got almost none to begin with. The only thing you could say Wo-Chien is bad at, at this point, is not doing everything--you know, the same way Iron Hands is a balanced Pokemon because it can't run a special set (it's not, this is bad argumentation).

The annoying thing is that most of what I've said is common knowledge.
The prevailing line of logic to keep Wo-Chien in the tier is something along the lines of it being essential to holding it together; should Wo-Chien disappear, Stall and Balance as a playstyle would become dramatically worse since basically every single offensive Pokemon gets twice as good; it can't be banned because we need it for the tier to be playable. But the problem with this logic is obvious:
1682713929903.png

It's literally just "broken checks broken", a tiering philosophy that's pretty much a meme due to how common and bad it is. If the metagame is fucked to all hell because of one broken mon, that just means there's a lot of broken Pokemon running around. Arguing that we should keep Wo-Chien because it holds the tier together is self-evident proof for it being balanced: no single defensive Pokemon should do THIS much.

(Quick thought experiment: What doesn't Wo-Chien help against? Yeah.)

The other, more sympathetic argument is that banning Wo-Chien would lead to a lot of other bans, but due to the incoming HOME drops the metagame could be fucked until then; basically, "it keeps the meta together and it'd take too long to rebuild the meta". I can understand why tiering leaders wouldn't want to make such a big change to UU when it's on a ticking timer; I'd be inclined to keep the status quo too. But honestly, the status quo sucks: having such an obscenely strong Pokemon running around isn't a lot more fun than getting run over by some dumbass Hyper Offense. My proposed solution to that would be simple: if we did suspect Wo-chien (and we really should ;-;) and it did get banned (much more up in the air), the UU Council should probably start quickbanning a lot of things. While mass QBs are usually frowned upon (especially by me), I think in the pursuit of making a fun, healthy, non-overcentralized and balanced metagame, it'd be a good route of action to take.

In conclusion, Wo-Chien is an unironically SS tier mon in SVUU atm and so long as it's around, we're not really pursuing a good metagame. If it helps, Wo-Chien being banned probably means that infernal Sandy Shocks will go as well.

small edit: Monky's point is a lot more complicated than what's presented here I just thought the screenshot was funny and got my point across well enough. it's not emblematic of much
 
Last edited:
Armarouge moved from OU to UU
Cyclizar moved from OU to UU
Greninja moved from OU to UU
Samurott moved from OU to UU
Typhlosion moved from OU to UU

Kilowattrel moved from RU to UU
Slowbro moved from RU to UU
Floatzel moved from NU to UU

Grafaiai moved from UU to RU
Hawlucha moved from UU to RU
Iron Thorns moved from UU to RU
Polteageist moved from UU to RU

---

New drops! No, we're not instantly banning Greninja! What do you guys think is is gonna find a home in the tier, and which existing mons are gonna improve as a result of these?
 
Greninja dropping further buffs rain. We need to urgently look at Drizzle or Pelliper, the playstyle was already wack and continues to get wacker. Greninja offers pivoting (+ hazards) and a hyper customizable move set to rain. I wouldn’t be shocked to see it replacing Golduck on some builds.
 
:armarouge: He's baaaaack! Real talk I'm very glad to see this goober come home. More Fire-types in this tier is never a bad thing.

:greninja: If Specs gets this thing to a reasonably high power threshold it might be suspect worthy. On paper it feels like everything people say is bad about Gengar but like, actually true. Free STAB on everything, great speed tier, blends well with meta trends, etc etc. We shall see!

:cyclizar: Knock and Spin with Regenerator and U-Turn and a good speed tier? Christmas in May over here, goddamn. I think that just because of how exclusive the tools on this bad boy are it's gotta be okay.

:samurott: :typhlosion: LMAOOOOOOO

Overall cool shift! Seems the OU players are also mad we didn't get Treads but whatever I guess. No losses is good enough.
 
glad ou did not get any rises!!! fuck ou all my homies hate ou, anyways ill give my opinion on them before i try the new meta, maybe ill update it a week or two later

:cyclizar: this thing gonna be fun as hell lmao, its literally THE utility mon. knock turn spin taunt meteor overheat with regen boots etc etc etc can run a lot of stuff and will be hella fun to use, also has a high af speed tier so yeah. love the bike dino

:greninja: im gonna hate this mf with every particle of my body, really good speed too, insane coverage, hits reasonably hard, PROTEAN even after nerf is still good, i honestly think this is suspect worthy or maybe even quickban, some stuff can eat hits like gastro or tail but some sets will surely just bring coverage for it, i think it gets both gunk shot and grass knot? still im gonna hate it so fuck it ban this

:armarouge: armor cannon w/o slowking go brrr (still slow and frail so not broken? it also walls non uturn scizor!! thats neat)

:samurott: :typhlosion: lol
 
Cyclizar seems to be one of the most promising form of role compression. And low ladderers can use as their new spinkeeper (rapid spin gatekeeping).

Cyclizar @ Leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
or 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe (with Dragon Claw , probably unviable)
Tera idk probably Fairy for Wo-Chien
Timid/Jolly Nature
-Rapid Spin
-U-Turn
-Knock Off/Taunt
-Draco Meteor/Dragon Claw

Armarouge is back yayyyyyyyyyyy
252 SpA Choice Specs Armarouge Armor Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 2568-3024 (1303.5 - 1535%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It’s very good support for the many, many Water types of the tier.

Greninja haunts me at night, Rain Greninja reminds me that everyone won’t wake up at some point in their life.
 
Quick metagame predictions

:cyclizar:
This thing will become UU's torn-t and might be one of the most used glue pieces. Amazing utility options + decent defensive typing + versatile offensive movepool + setup options and a fantastic speed tier. I'm predicting AV +3/4 utility moves to be the most common glue set with shift gear sets being good niche offensive options.

:greninja:
Laughably broken, has good enough coverage to break past anything resembling a check. Will work great with sandy shocks, able to lure in their shared checks and kill them without forcing sandy to pop tera to clear them. Speed tier is basically uncontested so revenge killing this thing is gonna be down to scarfers and priority

:armarouge:
Psychic terrain is back.... may God help us. Without slowking in the tier anymore, checking amarouge is gonna be a real pain, predicting this thing and maybe psychic terrain in general might be tested in the future

:Samurott: lol

:typhlosion: My childhood friend, I hope it enjoys its stay this month
 
i understand the ban rain crew will continue their protests regardless but for what its worth i think greninja is likely quite hard to justify on rain teams and if anything probably suffers from the larger amount of general water type checks in the tier because rain exists, and will be worse as a result. just my 2c tho!
 
remember when grafaiai was like A tier. me neither
the biggest drops are cyclizard and Greninja obviously, both could be spectacular offensive pivots in their own right.
:sv/cyclizar:
Cyclizar @ Assault Vest / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Overheat / Power Whip / Taunt / U-turn
- Draco Meteor / Taunt / Uturn

This thing is anti hazard setter. Power Whip OHKOs Gastro and 2hkos Quag and Sandy Shocks. Overheat 2hkos Tinkaton, Brambleghast, and Forretress (even tho forre is quite terrible).
Draco is a general nuke that 2hkos Phan and chunks other non-resistant pokemon I guess, but U-turn or Taunt seems more reliable.

:sv/greninja:
Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse / Grass Knot.
- Spikes / Gunk Shot

Revenge killer extraordinare!
Ice Beam OHKOs Salamence, Noivern and Donphan and has a 50% to OHKO Sandy Shocks and Iron Jugulis, and 2HKOs Gengar. Hydro Pump OHKOs Shocks and Talonflame, 2hkos Tera'd Noivern and other fast, frail neutral targets such as Gengar and Grafaiai. Dpulse OHKOS Gengar and 2hkos Grafaiai. Grass Knot 2hkos Gastrodon and Quagsire. Gunk Shot 2hkos Scream Tail (and Wo Chien if you have 60 attack evs). What's really intresting about Greninja is that, due to Protean, many of its moves share benchmarks, such as Ice Beam and Hydro both sharing 2hkos on many neutral targets, making it less prediction reliant than other choiced mon.
Many of Greninja's moves are obscenely safe and because of its high speed tier you can bluff boots earlier into the game. Even when you're found out, you can use that to your advantage by using the switches you force to set up Spikes.

Gren generally doesnt *have* any walls. Wo Chien and Scream Tail check it out of sheer bulk but Gunk Shot 2hkos them (although th former requires significant investment). Tinkaton doesnt like taking Hydro Pump and Spikes damage. I still think gren is liable to being forced out and, while less so than other scarfers, is still prediction heavy, so i don't think it's immediately broken. I won't be surprised if it is, though.
 
Bonjour! After a lot of productive and interesting discussion around Scizor, and reasonable outcries to suspect Sandy Shocks, I'm aware that complaining about Wo-Chien can come off as a little odd...
And now it seems odder, huh. Armarouge can reliably take on any slug set and Greninja...well, I think tera poison about handles any gren variant bar a series of specs hydro pumps, hm.
 
Hi, this is a post about Greninja. Armarouge coming back is greeeeeat, Cyclizar is a funny new addition, and i'm not going to mention the other starters for obvious reasons, but Gren is what I mainly wanted to talk about
876.png
855.png
936.png
094.png
701.png

658.png
- Quickban as soon as possible... Yes, I read that Greninja is not being instantly banned. It really should not be allowed in SV UU though :blobthumbsup:

I'm hoping that only 1-2 UU Open rounds will be "ruined" by Greninja rain meta... Personally, I'm going to bring Gren to every single game that it's legal in because there is no reason not to. Pawmot, Gengar, and Sandy Shocks might as well be D Rank on the Viability Rankings. They all get outsped, threatened by OHKO, and either have to die or switch to a mon that will get 2hkod by Gren. The speed on Greninja is nonsense for SV UU standards. It's way way wayyyyyyy too fast and strong compared to other UU mons

LO and Specs will dominate games. You don't necessarily even have to run protean on a LO set, considering you can tera and have 3 stabs while also being faster than almost every pokemonster in the metagame Talonflame + Bad Mon Noivern Kilowattrel Weavile + Bad Scarfers

The amount of things that Gren can outspeed and threaten without using its tera is ridiculous. Add tera and rain into the mix and nothing checks it. Revenge killing 377 Speed Greninja is very unreasonable and many bad scarfers will be used in order to attempt this. Teams will also rely on surprise teras to live a hit and attempt killing it back, just to get uturn'd on and have their tera wasted
373.png
Dies
989.png
Dies
423.png
Specs GK OHKO / LO Dark Pulse + Grass Knot usually 2HKO, not a safe switch unless Gren is locked into choice. Tera Fairy Gasto seems like a good check but it can still get smoked by Gunk Shot
094.png
Dies
923.png
Dies
212.png
Bro takes like 80+ and Gren resists Bullet Punch
663.png
Uturns on Gren, something probably dies anyways
Talonflame does decent chip damage tbf. Also let's pray that people don't start running Water Shiruken
0 Atk Talonflame U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 118-140 (41.4 - 49.1%)
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 151-178 (52.9 - 62.4%)
959.png
Checks Gren, does 33% back with Gigaton Hammer. Tink is one of the better checks somehow if it runs Thunder Wave, but they get overloaded very easily (Gren + Jugulis/Gengar/Salamence). Trapped by Magnezone, Gren spikes on it, and Rain + Water move will obliterate all SpD Tinkaton regardless. Tera water Gren also breaks Tinkaton with the tiniest amount of chip
1001.png
Resists stabs, but... Uturn, Ice beam, Gunk shot, come on this is not a good check
450.png
Dies
993.png
Ice beam literally kills, water move does mass, nothing short of specs hurricane is even killing Gren back
195.png
Get real
914.png
The check lol 85/75 HP SpD bulk, Grass knot basically ohkos, always 2hkod by water move in the rain, potential Extrasensory ideas
248.png
SpD TTar is somehow one of the better checks we've came across so far.. Until it gets 2hkod by a water move anyways or Uturn/Low Kicked
594.png
SpD Alomomola is not a good set or an effective check. Takes too much from Grass Knot and Dark Pulse for how abusable Wish/Protect is
945.png
Greninja hits it for 9/10ths of its health. Gren does not care about Prankster
925.png
Gren outspeeds and hits it for 80%. Rain or tera water + water move will ohko
778.png
Resists Shadow Sneak because of broken typing, Uturn to break disguise, Can easily kill with any move
715.png
Check. A useful water resist and something to outspeed. Gren is still Mr. Eat and lives a draco. Noivern is very frail and hates hard switching in
279.png
SpD Pelipper does not work. Gets flinched, water move does too much in the rain, 2hkod when rocks are up, tera water Gren powers through
985.png
Check If no Gunk Shot, but gets outsped and abused by hazards. Wish+Protect is not the most reliable recovery
080.png
Dies
988.png
CHECK
This is the best I could find. SpD Slither Wing does manage to take on Greninja, usually, if it does not tera water or have rain up. Still, ask yourself this question: Do you want to play in SpD Slither Wing meta?

Greninja can also check Greninja with Uturn, but yeah, that sounds healthy. This should paint the picture

Here are the pokemon that can revenge Greninja:
Scarfers:
923.png
094.png
914.png
282.png
479-m.png
849.png
398.png

Booster Energy:
993.png
989.png

Natural outspeed:
663.png
715.png
941.png

Prio:
988.png
448.png


Here are the pokemon that can kinda check Greninja, but probably can't switch in and also fail at checking it most of the time:
279.png
1001.png
914.png
248.png
594.png
462.png
128-a.png
986.png
978.png
715.png
:cyclizar:

Here are the pokemon that can beat some Greninja sets, but will usually lose to mixed, Dark Pulse flinches, or Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Gunk Shot:
985.png
691.png
423.png
479-m.png
671.png
700.png
242.png

Here are the pokemon that can generally hold off Greninja if it doesn't tera or is not in the rain:
959.png
988.png


And finally, here are the pokemon that switch into Greninja the in rain / after it teras:


It's not really about if Greninja will get banned, but when Greninja will get banned
Thanks for the read
 
Last edited:
:sv/greninja:
Greninja @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Electric/Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Tera Blast
- Gunk Shot
Get your Greninjas while they’re hot and fresh! Use them before they go to UUBL!

Anyways, I always felt like Gen 9 Battle Bond was an underrated ability. Statistically it is stronger and faster than Ash-Greninja, or at least until its forced out. So this set is most useful as a late game sweeper. Thanks to Battle Bond, it can reach a speed stat of 514/565 the only thing that can immediately stop Greninja’s sweep offsively is a Hawlucha after Unburden + Terrain Seed + Terrain, Swift Swim Floatzle/Barraskewda, and for Adamant variants Scarf Gengar/Espeon/Iron Jugulis.
Of course, your opponent has the option of priority as well, but thankfully Greninja has a pretty good resists and enough natural bulk to tank priority.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 112-132 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 84-100 (29.4 - 35%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros-Paldea-Aqua Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 60-72 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 211-250 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (just barely)
8 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Greninja: 76-90 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (of course also survives without Tera, but you get more room here)
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 165-195 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Some may be concerned about Greninja’s ability to KO without Protean or Choice Specs, but thanks to Sword Dance+EB/LO and its coverage, Greninja is an OHKOing machine.
+2 252 Atk Expert Belt Tera Electric Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 379-446 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Expert Belt Tera Electric Greninja Liquidation vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 461-542 (121.6 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Expert Belt Tera Electric Greninja Tera Blast vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 420-497 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 329-387 (99.3 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tsareena: 559-658 (160.6 - 189%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can also get it with Expert Belt)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 998-1175 (301.5 - 354.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 369-437 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 347-409 (116.8 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Electric Greninja Liquidation vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 290-343 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Because of that Sword Dance boost, it is actually not unreasonable to find KO oppritunities and end up sweeping.
One major or rather 2 major problems are Gastrodon and Quagsire. The former is completely immune to Water with Storm Drain and Tera Blast Electric if you run that, while the latter gets walled out by Quagsire thanks to Unaware. If you face a team with them, you really have to deal significant damage to them before hand, otherwise you’d have to run Tera Grass, which isn’t as good imo for such a set.


Ok my bad. Ignore this post until Home eventually releases…eventually.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top