Metagame np: SV Ubers Stage 2 - Power

[Anchor9]

I brought up ADV Latios in the non-Bliss MU (consider rain HO, sun BO) to show that even in a game where a fast, high longevity attacker can shred its checks (even to a much greater extent than Miraidon at times), the game remains competitive and sophisticated. Given that nobody plays ADV Ubers, this was understandably a poor method of explanation, so I will explain why Miraidon’s offensive prowess is fine strictly in the context of SV.
One of SV Ubers’ best qualities is the ability to recover positionally after taking a hit:

• Ho-oh and Gliscor have amazing passive healing abilities in conjunction with stats/typing that allow them to be excellent pivots.
• Using Boots to ignore residual hazard chip that would make defensive switches difficult.
• Access to very good revenge killers in Koraidon, Zacian and Ekiller to regain momentum.
• The potential of defensive Tera (especially with Ho-oh and Arceus) when backed into a corner.
• Good Knock absorbers like Gliscor and Arceus.

When recovery potential is this potent, the breaking power is allowed to match. A Miraidon with a right set can certainly beat Ting Lu, Clod, Arceus, and other checks assuming it gets all the turns correct, but that’s rarely the case in practice. Often Miraidon is forced to click Taunt to maintain progress vs Arceus or even switch out vs Ting Lu to avoid dying/taking significant damage. Its stabs are met with two big immunities, and revenge killers will force it to Tera or switch out. While these are interactions are all in favor of the aggressor, that’s completely fine because that is how progress is ideally made in a meta with so many recovery options. Otherwise, it’s just a matter of cyclic processes centered around Ho-oh to slowly push for advantage, which is painfully uncomplex with how good Boots are.

As for your points about Zacian in SS, you are completely wrong. Zacian-C and Zacian-H were never banned simply because they had the capability to 2HKO the whole tier. Several Pokemon in the history of this game are capable of this feat. You must consider the pace of SS and how likely it is to recover from taking a hit from Zacian. Dedicated revenge killers are less prominent in SS, which has traditionally been one of the best ways to deal with offense. There are also more Miraidon checks in SV than Zacian checks in SS, which allows Zacian sets to be highly specialized (think Assurance for NDM). SS is also very cyclic in the sense that Knock Off + hazard chip is more prevalent making recovering from Zacian’s hits incredibly difficult. And about Caly, I was referring to SV Caly, not SS. I edited my post to clarify this now.

Frankly, I find SV very enjoyable and having Miraidon accelerate progress in new ways has been refreshing after a couple generations of slow, grindy gameplay. The tier is also still in its infancy, and I think a lot of good things will happens once Tera types become optimized.

What do you mean? Ho-Oh and Gliscor in no way can swap into Miraidon unless the opponent is extremely bad at the game. No matter how good a Mons passive recovery is, if it gets OHKOed that doesn’t matter. The only way they possibly swap in is against Spec with something such as Ting-Lu / Zacian-C that forces Miraidon to guess. Yeah Miraidon can get revenge-killed, but your still trading a Mon and Miraidon can even Tera out of it.

 

[Highlord]

What do you mean? Ho-Oh and Gliscor in no way can swap into Miraidon unless the opponent is extremely bad at the game. No matter how good a Mons passive recovery is, if it gets OHKOed that doesn’t matter. The only way they possibly swap in is against Spec with something such as Ting-Lu / Zacian-C that forces Miraidon to guess. Yeah Miraidon can get revenge-killed, but your still trading a Mon and Miraidon can even Tera out of it.

Obviously you don't just switch them in without scouting lol. You should force a few guesses to gather some info about the set before you try anything insane. You also need to limit opportunities where Miraidon can just grab a trade so easily. You have limited opportunities to swing momentum with Ting Lu so be careful with it.

 

[Anchor9]

Obviously you don't just switch them in without scouting lol. You should force a few guesses to gather some info about the set before you try anything insane. You also need to limit opportunities where Miraidon can just grab a trade so easily. You have limited opportunities to swing momentum with Ting Lu so be careful with it.

Ok. Makes since. Although it really sounds harder to do in practice. Especially the sets that want you to try to scout with Protect such as double dance.

 

[Hrishioo7]

Obviously you don't just switch them in without scouting lol. You should force a few guesses to gather some info about the set before you try anything insane. You also need to limit opportunities where Miraidon can just grab a trade so easily. You have limited opportunities to swing momentum with Ting Lu so be careful with it.

thats basically broken isnt it? remember the zacian-h meta it either clicks play rough or close combat or wildcharge when u have ho-oh and ndm on the team, miraidon doesnt even have to chose from 3 moves cause its just 2 of them

 

[Highlord]

thats basically broken isnt it? remember the zacian-h meta it either clicks play rough or close combat or wildcharge when u have ho-oh and ndm on the team, miraidon doesnt even have to chose from 3 moves cause its just 2 of them

Thing is once you identify the set, it becomes easier to deal with. For zacian, it doesn’t get much easier and I think generally in SS, once you take the first bad trade, it’s hard to get back in the game. In SV you have tera and your own miraidon to counter back later in the game after taking a bad trade. SS only has caly in that regard.

 

[arbiter1337]

I brought up ADV Latios in the non-Bliss MU (consider rain HO, sun BO) to show that even in a game where a fast, high longevity attacker can shred its checks (even to a much greater extent than Miraidon at times), the game remains competitive and sophisticated. Given that nobody plays ADV Ubers, this was understandably a poor method of explanation, so I will explain why Miraidon’s offensive prowess is fine strictly in the context of SV.
One of SV Ubers’ best qualities is the ability to recover positionally after taking a hit:

• Ho-oh and Gliscor have amazing passive healing abilities in conjunction with stats/typing that allow them to be excellent pivots.
• Using Boots to ignore residual hazard chip that would make defensive switches difficult.
• Access to very good revenge killers in Koraidon, Zacian and Ekiller to regain momentum.
• The potential of defensive Tera (especially with Ho-oh and Arceus) when backed into a corner.
• Good Knock absorbers like Gliscor and Arceus.

When recovery potential is this potent, the breaking power is allowed to match. A Miraidon with a right set can certainly beat Ting Lu, Clod, Arceus, and other checks assuming it gets all the turns correct, but that’s rarely the case in practice. Often Miraidon is forced to click Taunt to maintain progress vs Arceus or even switch out vs Ting Lu to avoid dying/taking significant damage. Its stabs are met with two big immunities, and revenge killers will force it to Tera or switch out. While these are interactions are all in favor of the aggressor, that’s completely fine because that is how progress is ideally made in a meta with so many recovery options. Otherwise, it’s just a matter of cyclic processes centered around Ho-oh to slowly push for advantage, which is painfully uncomplex with how good Boots are.

As for your points about Zacian in SS, you are completely wrong. Zacian-C and Zacian-H were never banned simply because they had the capability to 2HKO the whole tier. Several Pokemon in the history of this game are capable of this feat. You must consider the pace of SS and how likely it is to recover from taking a hit from Zacian. Dedicated revenge killers are less prominent in SS, which has traditionally been one of the best ways to deal with offense. There are also more Miraidon checks in SV than Zacian checks in SS, which allows Zacian sets to be highly specialized (think Assurance for NDM). SS is also very cyclic in the sense that Knock Off + hazard chip is more prevalent making recovering from Zacian’s hits incredibly difficult. And about Caly, I was referring to SV Caly, not SS. I edited my post to clarify this now.

Frankly, I find SV very enjoyable and having Miraidon accelerate progress in new ways has been refreshing after a couple generations of slow, grindy gameplay. The tier is also still in its infancy, and I think a lot of good things will happens once Tera types become optimized.

and both get smashed by (Actually most of the tier gets smashed [2hko] by ). The bike has no counters. Ban .

 

[Anchor9]

Thing is once you identify the set, it becomes easier to deal with. For zacian, it doesn’t get much easier and I think generally in SS, once you take the first bad trade, it’s hard to get back in the game. In SV you have tera and your own miraidon to counter back later in the game after taking a bad trade. SS only has caly in that regard.

I’m gonna be honest but a Mons main check shouldn’t be itself. Tera is a mad guessing game. In SS you could say you have your own Zacian-C too.

 

[Hrishioo7]

Thing is once you identify the set, it becomes easier to deal with. For zacian, it doesn’t get much easier and I think generally in SS, once you take the first bad trade, it’s hard to get back in the game. In SV you have tera and your own miraidon to counter back later in the game after taking a bad trade. SS only has caly in that regard.

yeah i agree miraidon is nowhere near as broken as zacian but regardless i still consider is pretty annoying to deal with in general. Now in this gen of course nothing is gonna be outright broken like zacians due to the existence of tera, but some mons that restrict teambuilding a lot are definitely annoying to me

 

[Highlord]

I’m gonna be honest but a Mons main check shouldn’t be itself. Tera is a mad guessing game. In SS you could say you have your own Zacian-C too.

I wasn't saying Miraidon checks Miraidon as that's not really feasible (unless you identify choice lock into electric move). I was just saying there is opportunity to return back into the game because of the offensive nature of the tier.

 

[Highlord]

Ok looks like nobody understood what I was getting at in my post. The point was to break down how in offense oriented metas, even small momentum shifts are enough to keep a game highly competitive.

When I’m talking about recovery, I mean the ability to regain position. When I’m talking about Ho-oh, I am talking about how it affects the tier and how it makes teams very resilient. It obviously doesn’t check Miraidon lol but it’s important to point out Miraidon is paired with other attackers like Koraidon. You have to check cores, not individual threats.

As for Miraidon itself, no shit it’s one of the best Boots mons in the tier (only second to Ho-oh). That doesn’t mean Boots reduces the ability to recover in this tier because if Boots didn’t exist, regaining position would definitely be even harder as it would cripple Ho-oh and allow the first spike setter to gain too much advantage. Its specs/cm sets are able to nuke Ting Lu, but in the context of offense, that is perfectly fine lol. That’s a big momentum shift that lets you strike back. Those sets also aren’t immune to hazards, and specs is exploitable due to the choice lock.

Just because the meta doesn’t revolve around slow positional advantages through chip doesn’t make it a bad tier. There are great tiers on smogon where balance as an archetype doesn’t even exist. Not to mention that SV Ubers will never reach that state no matter what you ban just due to the power level of offensive threats (even outside of Miraidon) and the effect Tera has on the tier. To me, Miraidon is one of the only appealing parts of about this meta because it’s a refreshing change of pace and removing it gives me no reason to play the tier years down the line as an old gen.

 

[ademalawer]

Alright, got my reqs this morning and instead of studying for chemistry I have decided to spend my time arguing with others on forums :]

I intend on voting ban on Miraidon for numerous reasons, but most notably it comes down to two main factors for me: its sheer power and the diversity it has in its sets and Tera's. Off the top of my head, Miraidon can feasibly run Pivot U-Turn, Specs, Scarf, CM + Taunt (albeit its basically a stall CT) and Double Dance, and can all have diversity in their movesets. On Scarf/Specs, ontop of the double STAB you can run (albeit more niche) Overheat to hit things like Iron Treads (a fake check), but I think the real issue in how diverse it is lies in the Double Dance set. On Double Dance alone, you can go between LO, E-Seed, WP and Leftovers with great effectiveness, can run Draco to nuke some ground checks (it is very niche, but Modest LO +1 Tera Dragon/Stellar Mirai OHKOs Ting-Lu) and Solar Beam works as a Ground type coverage option as well. On top of that, it abuses Tera so well, with Dragon or Electric to bolster its monstrous STABs, or to circumvent it's weaknesses it can pick and choose from Fairy, Ghost, Grass, Normal (granted Normal is kind of fake and super situational, but I have seen it on ladder before but it is ladder so take that with a grain of salt) and Flying. Theres probably something else I'm missing too but it is simply too much to cover for.

I also think it constricts the teambuilder a lot, where archetypes that aren't Stall or Offense often need to have a dedicated checks for it (see the rise in SpDef Arceus-Ground alone, which is a garbage set otherwise) and if not, just need pick one to sack. And for those saying "ah well, bulky Grounds exist!". Any semi-competent player knows that isn't a free switch or check, Max-Max Arceus-Ground takes like 60 from a Draco, and with Pivot Mirai you just switch out where you lose nothing, and your opponent is scrambling to find a switch or check to your Miraidon or what's coming in. Even the bulkiest Ground check it has, Ting-Lu, takes 35 something from Draco then gets U-Turned on (and if not, it just gets U-Turned on to anything that can handle a Ting-Lu). "Checks" like Gliscor can't even come near Miraidon, as any player will not always click Electric STAB into the telegraphed Ground switch in. This also brings me to my next point, which is that it gets too many hits off freely and although accumulating Draco drops isn't ideal, its ability to U-Turn out and prevent setup as well with it's Taunt set has just made it so consistent in the tier. On top of that, you need to account for Double Dance, where in some situations those "checks" turn into straight up set up fodder to Double Dance sets, to which point you need to throw as much priority you have at it as nothing on your team is going to outspeed it.

Miraidon can fit any structure (barring maybe Stall), and I think your at an active disadvantage not taking advantage of it. I haven't been playing the tier for long, but I think I've been playing enough to know that Miraidon isn't remotely healthy, and has made offense much more powerful than it should be. If your looking for someone better than me with an actual brain to sum up this problem, I think LBN's post describes the situation perfectly.

It genuinely baffles me that Miraidon has existed in the tier as long as it has, as it hasn't gained anything notable since release, but continues to be a dominant force with little -- no, actually NO consistent counterplay (even gimmicky counterplay like Iron Treads is actual dead weight on any real team) and an unhealthy presence on the builder and meta.

TL;DR Miraidon is too strong, gets off to many hits freely, and just pivots out while they have momentum, or can sweep abusing Tera. It's raw strength in conjunction with the sheer versatility with its sets and Tera leaves it with no consistent counterplay, therefore it should be banned

 

[WohMi]

I will be voting no ban.

Miraidon are staples of the SV Ubers tier. And like most staples, they have many checks in the tier.

The number one issue Miraidon has is common immunity to STAB. Ubers is not starving for Good Fairy (Zacian-C, Arceus Fairy, Flutter Mane) or Ground types (Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Gliscor, Clodsire), so switching into Miraidon is not egregiously difficult.

Even without these mons, defensive Teras such as Ground, Fairy, or even Electric not only stop Miraidon in its tracks but enable setup, or force Miraidon to switch out.
While Miraidon has taunt to stop these defensive checks, literally every one of the previously mentioned mons have the ability to threaten Miraidon, even without Status.

IMO, Miraidon definitely is strong, but I feel it doesn't have the sheer overpowered strength to necessitate a ban to AG. Calyrex-S is fine up there by its lonesome, for now.

 

[Moyashi]

Just gonna pop in for a sec,

Miraidon are staples of the SV Ubers tier. And like most staples, they have many checks in the tier.

Not really sure what it being a staple has anything to do with anything here, this line doesn't really add to discussion. More importantly though,

The number one issue Miraidon has is common immunity to STAB. Ubers is not starving for Good Fairy (Zacian-C, Arceus Fairy, Flutter Mane) or Ground types (Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Gliscor, Clodsire), so switching into Miraidon is not egregiously difficult.

This is where the discussion lies, and where it might be easy to underestimate how difficult handling Miraidon is in practice. To start with, other than Arceus-Ground, all of these pokemon are flimsy into Miraidon or are poor pokemon outside of checking it. Groudon cannot at all switch into Miraidon comfortably and right now isn't a common pick, Gliscor gets wiped by Draco after rocks and also can't handle CM varients. Clodsire is terrible and only sees usage because of Miraidon, and is a huge momentum drain and horribly passive. Arceus-Ground can handle some varients, but it's getting torn into by hazards and also has to run a fairly suboptimal set to even check Miraidon somewhat. And that's assuming no specs or CM tera sets. You left out Ting-Lu oddly but as has been mentioned by others, Lu is highly abusable by pivot Miraidon and much like Clodsire, would see little usage if Miraidon was banned.

Fairy types then. ZacianC is better off revenge killing it as it's not reliably coming in when it takes absurd damage from electro drift and is super vulnerable to spikes. But ZacianC isn't nearly as bad for this as it used to be with the presence of NDM and Ho-oh, who both handle it well. Arceus-Fairy takes over 50% from pivot Miraidon's drift, meaning one good call and Arc can't handle it. Flutter Mane is a speed tie which is the definition of not a good sign, and an issue in and of itself when talking about offensive counterplay,

Even without these mons, defensive Teras such as Ground, Fairy, or even Electric not only stop Miraidon in its tracks but enable setup, or force Miraidon to switch out.
While Miraidon has taunt to stop these defensive checks, literally every one of the previously mentioned mons have the ability to threaten Miraidon, even without Status.

Even without? You're not making a team with them given you need a check, more than one check, to Miraidon and trying to lean on tera just shows how limited your options are. By the way, forcing Miraidon out does a whole lot of nothing given how substantial its longevity is, especially on boots pivots sets, and you're at best very temporarily getting a moment of respite if you time tera right and "force it out". You're not making it go away forever. Boots pivot Miraidon alone has a reputation for abusing the few true counters it has with u-turn, and is very difficult to revenge kill as its so difficult to wear down naturally. Many players have rightly pointed out how easily it can weave in and out, and many of its defensive checks do little to actually stop it in practice. And that's without getting into set variety which limits counterplay even further.

Miraidon has an excessive and overbearing impact on teambuilding which indirectly makes it much harder to answer other huge threats and it leads to more volatility in the metagame, more match up dependant. It's not remotely a healthy presence nor is it balanced.

 

[Highlord]

Even without? You're not making a team with them given you need a check, more than one check, to Miraidon and trying to lean on tera just shows how limited your options are. By the way, forcing Miraidon out does a whole lot of nothing given how substantial its longevity is, especially on boots pivots sets, and you're at best very temporarily getting a moment of respite if you time tera right and "force it out". You're not making it go away forever. Boots pivot Miraidon alone has a reputation for abusing the few true counters it has with u-turn, and is very difficult to revenge kill as its so difficult to wear down naturally. Many players have rightly pointed out how easily it can weave in and out, and many of its defensive checks do little to actually stop it in practice. And that's without getting into set variety which limits counterplay even further.

Miraidon has an excessive and overbearing impact on teambuilding which indirectly makes it much harder to answer other huge threats and it leads to more volatility in the metagame, more match up dependant. It's not remotely a healthy presence nor is it balanced.

Not sure why people are claiming Boots being able to weave in and out is a problem. Pretty much any offensive Mon with a pivoting move is capable of this and this goes for all tiers. I actually find Boots to be one of the easiest forms to check just because of the low damage output without Tera. Let’s just say miraidon U-turn out of Ting Lu that switches in and goes to Koraidon / Gliscor / Kyogre / whatever check. If they go Kyogre / SD Koraidon, sure they have the upper hand monetarily but you now have opportunity to switch to a check and do something back. Only U-turn Koraidon/Gliscor can loop the pivoting which admittedly makes it a little trickier but if you plan such that your only Koraidon switch in isn’t something that gets mauled by Miraidon you should be fine. I saw ladder was guilty of this because they were over-reliant on Ho-oh as a Koraidon answer. I mean Ho-oh is still very good despite this, but if it’s your only check, it’s easy to predict when it’s coming in. And all of this is under the assumption that Miraidon is just clicking U-turn into a switch in. If it actually attacks the Ting Lu, that’s a free click whether that be Spikes or Ruination. There a ton of mons in this tier can’t be countered (pretty normal by Ubers standards), but Miraidon does nothing that is truly overwhelming, especially the Boots set of all things.

 

[PANDAgedin51]

Arceus ice with tera ground is a good counter with judgement

 

[bravebirding]

the suspect reqs have been achieved, so I should hopefully be able to vote. If there is a more appropriate place to put this, pls tell me since this is my first suspect participation ever ;-;

With that out of the way, this is bluebim, formerly idekwhatneamtoyuse, here to give his 2 cents on Miraidon, which are that this bike lizard from the future has a ridiculously overbearing strain on not only teambuilding, but the battle itself. So averse are its effects that I believe it should be BANNED if the community wishes to foster a more balanced metagame to play (although it won't necessarily be as fun, a point I'd like to make)

What makes Miraidon exert so much pressure at every second is its damage output that supercedes even Mega Rayquaza, a speed tier that is only a smidge slow for it's liking, minmaxxed bulk that allow it to take uninvested super effective attacks from naturally strong pokemon like support Arceus-Ground (0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Miraidon: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and tools in which it can either dispatch the VERY FEW pokemon that can take more than 2 hits from it, or use them to generate both momentum and an opportunity for its calamitously strong comrades to capitalize.

For those who don't believe me, here are some damage calculations against a max sp. def fairy. Mega Rayquaza's comparisons are done with a bold nature.

252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 186-219 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is the pivot set, inarguably Miraidon's weakest set in terms of firepower.

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 160-189 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Here is a Rayquaza, with a speed boosting nature against the same mon but in phys. def.

Even without a boosting item, Miraidon's firepower means that it is most definitely going to 2HKO or outright OHKO any pokemon that doesn't have simply ridiculous bulk (chansey/blissey/ting-lu) or doesn't resist it. Dragon/Electric is a stab combination resisted by so few other type combinations and all of those fall to Overheat, if Miraidon is even running fire coverage. U-Turn can often just make pokemon like Iron Treads, Ting-Lu and Arceus-Ground momentum sinks for the defender, and opportunities to bring in either a suitable offensive mon like Koraidon or a defensive option that can continue to harrass the opposing team like Ho-Oh.

If Miraidon so chooses to run a boosting set or item not only does it's firepower increase to a point where it is ludicrous, but it also has immense variety in what moves and Tera typings to run to enhance it's wallbreaking/sweep capabilities. In this regard, it is perhaps one of the best Tera abusers in the game.

Miraidon's Double Dance set (Geomancy Xerneas at home), normally runs electric seed and Tera Fairy, but these can be changed easily. Life Orb can be used to allow an OHKO on Zacian at +1 with Parabolic Charge, Tera Ghost can provide an immunity to Extreme Speed, Tera Grass can be paired with Solar Beam to brute force it's way past Ting-Lu with Life Orb and turn Arceus-Ground into setup fodder, Tera Dragon to remove ground weakness and boost Dragon Pulse to downright hilarious levels of power. Weakness Policy with heavy defense investment and Tera Stellar behind screens deserves a mention, as while I have not played with it yet, the defensive investments ensure Miraidon both lives the hit, and gets a boost to it's offenses, which means it can hyperexpedite the loss with calm mind, or potentially be cheeky and run taunt to prevent phazing attempts mid sweep. When paired with the other monsters in the Tier like Scale Shot Koraidon, DD Arc-Ground, SD Zacian, Ekiller, DD or SD TR NDM, almost nothing is safe aside from building with hyperspecific pokemon and playing VERY WELL to outposition the enemy, which can be countered by the Miraidon user playing well themselves, or just utilizing the brute power of the aforementioned (Miraidon especially) to bowl over their defensive structures.

The Wallbreaker also deserves a mention as it is the most outright nuclear pokemon set I have ever laid my eyes upon. If paired with Taunt and Parabolic charge, the few brave stall teams stand no chance. Electro Drift when boosted with a Calm mind and Life Orb is the true definition of "nuclear power" while +1 Tera Dragon Life Orb Draco Meteor has a 50% chance to outright OHKO Ting-Lu unless it teras which is still beneficial to the Miraidon user so long as their other offensive pokemon are not damaged:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 471-556 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

with a modest nature, this is outright guaranteed:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 517-611 (100.5 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and a modest nature also grants Miraidon a little more flexibility in terms of using Tera to wallbreak, as modest life orb Draco will still do an insane amount of damage:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 387-458 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even against Hyper Offense, it's worse matchup especially if running a modest nature, it's power still allows it to leave huge dents in the makeshift defenses HO teams pack. Not to mention that it can turn to tera to alleviate these matchups, Tera Ghost and Fairy being the most prominent for Miraidon. One might argue that it then can't run Tera Dragon, but it's a risk you have to keep in mind as you try to revenge kill it.

Lastly, Miraidon's pivot set. HDB ensures that it can switch in and out freely, U-Turn generates momentum on the view things that don't instantly die when it clicks a move/it clicks the wrong one, and Taunt prevents set up/hazards/recovery which allows Miraidon to provide great value even as it's firepower is weakened. It can use various Teras like Steel/Ghost/Fairy or Dragon to enhance itself defensively or offensively.

What one might notice is that my description of the pivot set is rather lackluster compared to the hyperbole I've granted unto it's Double Dance and Wallbreaker sets. This is attributable to my lack of experience with it, and the fact that this set is the one being touted to be the most degenerate rather than the aforementioned both surprised me, and motivated me to vote that I should vote ban Miraidon if I sought a more "balanced" metagame (cough cough Koraidon)

The fact that my experience with other, more experienced Uber players is different enough that we have different sets we imagine as Miraidon's most dangerous yet all agree it is suspect worthy should be testament itself to just how dangerous each and every single Miraidon set is, and how it's flexibility, power and insane ability to capitalize on all aspects of Terastallization means it exerts far too much pressure on the teambuilder and battle. Only Koraidon has much immediate pressure in both of these aspects of building and playing, and even Korai has miniscule flaws that Miraidon does not, that being it's method of boosting and stallbreaking leaves it prone to priority picking it off and it's 4x weakness forcing it to tera to get rid of these. While Miraidon is not the ONLY reason that Ubers has become extremely volatile, it is undoubtedly the biggest reason why, and it constrains so much of teambuilding that:

1. It fulfills what I consider to be an AG worthy pokemon
2. It has made the tier rather boring, both in teambuilding and in playing it.

You can only really enjoy watching Miraidon do its best Xerneas, Z-Move or SS Tornadus-Therian impressions before you wonder if this thing is any good for the tier.

Non-offense teams have to use a combination of offensive pressure and defensive stability to block just ONE Pokémon concretely, and when paired with the other monsters that call this tier home, it can become far too easy for the offender to just break past them unless they misplay really hard. If the offender ever gets into a bad spot? Bam! Tera and they suddenly are at the driver's seat again, pushing the knife ever further.

While I due believe that forcing the tier to be in such a state where Balance is the best style as it was in SS is quite undesirable, we most likely won't reach this state unless we also ban Koraidon (which if this suspect's split is any indicator of, it probably won't be) and Last Respects (FUCK THIS THING REMOVE THIS SHIT). Even then, this tier is filled with many other monsters such as Tera Electric Kyurem-Black, Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned, Dragon-Dance Necrozma, various Arceus-Formes, Chien-Pao and all of it's annoying variants. This, in my opinion, will be more than enough to ensure SV Ubers is a very different metagame from SS Ubers.

TLDR: I believe that Miraidon exerts far too much pressure on both teambuilding and within the battle itself which enables its dangerous teammates to a ridiculous degree. It is a wallbreaker unparalleled and can often just brute force through it's counters while still being fast enough to outspeed 90% of the unboosted metagame. Its flexibility through options like Taunt, Solar Beam, Dazzling Gleam, Overheat, Parabolic Charge means guessing wrong against it can mean a crucial part of your defensive core gone. It is an insane Tera abuser, setting up on and 6-0ing entire teams filled with mons that it has no business doing so like Zacian-Crowned or Kyurem-White. Or it could a pivot that switches in and out almost infinitely against passive teams while harassing them with Taunt, and still having sufficient power to force defensive plays that even if it doesn't do much, the pressure it exerted most certainly has.

Thusly, I will be voting BAN.

I do apologize if I ended up rambling about unrelated topics or whatever of the sort, but I truly do believe that the traits that define Miraidon has made it far too strong in the context of the metagame. Thus, I deemed it prudent to ramble on about them.

I would be rather sad if it went to AG. This thing made SV Ubers, especially pre-home, so much fun trying to learn.

Sayonara, Miraidon. You were among the greatest. Hopefully gen 10 nerfs you just right where you're enjoyable but not bannable.

 

[bravebirding]

hi you can post your reqs in this thread to be able to vote https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ubers-stage-2-voting-id-thread.3738094/

thanks a lot! will i have to change my smogon forums name to that of my main acc?

 

[Charmriah]

Hey everyone,

I haven't finished my ladder reqs just yet but i did want to say a few things. First I wanna start off by saying that I don't think miraidon is that big of deal. The framing that i've seen so far that it's a brainless pick that has no risk but all reward. I don't think that it's riskless at all, matter of fact i think having it on your team requires a lot of postioning and careful play to get it going. I do believe miraidon actually has 4 SS syndrome. It can't have taunt, agility, calm mind, u turn, e-drift etc all in one. It has to rely on teammates to pick up the slack of every set. Pivot sets seem riskless but as one the main breakers of your teams, if they for say have equally fast breakers in flutter mane, koriadon, chien-pao, and faster threats in dexoys-A and zaican-C, all mons that are great stand alone mons. You can only pivot around their teammates which everything miraidon pivots on also has a way of punishing the incoming switch. Whether that be ndm's knock off (bulky sets) or chip on the incoming switch (meaning that miraidon can't keep momentum going by switching to everything and they mama if they aren't a super bulky switch). Every other set is prone to being wore down by hazards (yes even parabolic charge sets) that are incredibly easy to set. Sets where miriadon has taunt for hazard setters often get punished for most part with a super effective move. It may not ohko but it doesn't need to. You may think ok just pivot out, but once again you have to take risks in order to make progress on both sides, which isn't overwhelming it's quite fair and frankly just mons.

On to life orb, specs, scarf, and double dance sets
-Life orb gives you extra power to help break through certain mons that would typically stop miraidon dead in its tracks. LO is all gas no breaks which is very punishable often subject to being revenge killed quite easily. It's a wallbreaker it breaks things as its SUPPOSED to. This isn't a case where it does its job way too well either, they are signifcant risks assoicated with using life orb sets.
-On either choiced set it requires prediction and are sub-optimal at best what they do (specs miraidon can break a lot of things but easily killed by its speed tier and those above it. It also gets preyed upon hazard chip since it often wants to come in as many times as it can). Scarf sets can either be a life saver or a curse. Set up sweeper getting too out of control just switch in (if it gets greedy) and take chip for the next mon if it doesn't kill (which it usually doesn't)
-Double dance is often brought in as the late game cleaner and requries the rest of the team to do most of the work to help it win the game. Which if it fails to do that miraidon most of the time just becomes death fodder. But that isn't inherently broken, you are working hard to win the game and that should be noted.

Miraidon brings a lot to the tier imo. It does punish careless play and rarely rewards braindead/telegraphed plays. It's not constraining in the builder. Having a ground type that often role compresses of not only stopping it but setting hazards/removing them, but a lot of the grounds in tier also have great offensive pressence on their own. Having fairy type is wanted in this tier as this tier has dragons lurking at every corner. Having both in one team isn't constraining as they often provide great vaule in the tier regardless. With the options you have in this tier, you don't nessciarly need either one of them. As said earlier there is great offensive pressure available in the tier to check it. (Ik you may say oh you get locked into one particular playstyle, but that's not also true as there are many of playstyles available in the tier, that all have risk assoicated with it). What miraidon brings to the tier in particular though is that its a unique wallbreaker that has utlity often desired. Depending on the set it can help stop defensive mons from sitting on the entire tier. Great pivoting to keep momentum up in a game, while not being overwhelming as some of the other hard hitting pivots in the tier. It's a great middle ground between utlity and wallbreaking that you do not see in too many mons in this tier.

Before I leave i do wanna address the element of tera/scouting in arugments. I don't think that is linked soley to miraidon so I see no point in bringing it up at all. Yes miraidon can tera and win some games, but so can litterally every set up sweeper in this tier. As for scouting, I don't think the element of it having multiple sets is a strong argument in any tier. It's verstile no doubt, but that aspect doesn't make it overwhelming. Not every team is gonna beat all of it's sets. But that element is also not limited to just miraidon either.

In conlusion while i'm not fully decided on what to vote since I do believe some of the ban arugments have vaildaity to them. I'm just not completely sold that miraidon needs to be banned.

Thanks for the read, please have a great day!

 

[Trade]

Only U-turn Koraidon/Gliscor can loop the pivoting which admittedly makes it a little trickier but if you plan such that your only Koraidon switch in isn’t something that gets mauled by Miraidon you should be fine.

I would love to get some input as to what this could be! It would make my building so much easier <3

 

[Trade]

Miraidon brings a lot to the tier imo. It does punish careless play and rarely rewards braindead/telegraphed plays. It's not constraining in the builder. Having a ground type that often role compresses of not only stopping it but setting hazards/removing them, but a lot of the grounds in tier also have great offensive pressence on their own. Having fairy type is wanted in this tier as this tier has dragons lurking at every corner. Having both in one team isn't constraining as they often provide great vaule in the tier regardless. With the options you have in this tier, you don't nessciarly need either one of them. As said earlier there is great offensive pressure available in the tier to check it. (Ik you may say oh you get locked into one particular playstyle, but that's not also true as there are many of playstyles available in the tier, that all have risk assoicated with it). What miraidon brings to the tier in particular though is that its a unique wallbreaker that has utlity often desired. Depending on the set it can help stop defensive mons from sitting on the entire tier.

Sorry, I'm gonna stop you right here. Your first mistake is saying that a lot of grounds in the tier have great offensive presence. You're literally talking about Arceus-Ground. I can name the number of viable Ground types in Ubers on my right hand, and 1 of them doesn't even always run a ground move. Wake me up when I see Clodsire or Ting-Lu do more than a quarter of Calyrex-Ice's total HP.

Now, let's talk about viable fairies. Please, go ahead and list them. Oh, what's that? Arceus-Fairy? Oh no, does that mean I have to forego running Arceus-Ground? As far as we're concerned, Zac and Flutter are the only other viable fairy mons, and both of them will never come in on an Electro Drift. And moreover, one of them doesn't always carry a Fairy move, so you're not even beating Miraidon head to head most of the time!

Great pivoting to keep momentum up in a game, while not being overwhelming as some of the other hard hitting pivots in the tier. It's a great middle ground between utlity and wallbreaking that you do not see in too many mons in this tier.

I think there's a fundamental flaw in the understanding of pivots. You pivot not to do damage, but to maintain momentum. Who cares if you're doing 5%. Your position remains incredibly high. And you're only pivoting to soften the Grounds that you hold in such high regard.

It's not constraining in the builder.

This is the most egregious thing that has been said in the entire thread. Anyone who has built for this tier, always thinks of if the team can handle Miraidon, and often times the answer is: No, but this will at least prolong my suffering for a bit. We have seen people run 2 GROUNDS and still lose. We have seen teams that run Clodsire and Blissey and still lose to Miraidon, because of Taunt. I think the people who make this claim need to make at least 100 teams, and just look how similar the backbone "answers" you have for Miraidon look in every single team. Compiling UWC alone, you can see just how afraid every single SV person was of Miraidon from their builds. It's cope to say otherwise.

 

[roxie]

Honestly I agree with Trade. I’m tired of pretending like Arceus Ground is checking this behemoth of a mon. Tinglu is cool or whatever but it gets uturned. Last respects not being to like get banned is sucky but we should ban this lizard

Sorry, I'm gonna stop you right here. Your first mistake is saying that a lot of grounds in the tier have great offensive presence. You're literally talking about Arceus-Ground. I can name the number of viable Ground types in Ubers on my right hand, and 1 of them doesn't even always run a ground move. Wake me up when I see Clodsire or Ting-Lu do more than a quarter of Calyrex-Ice's total HP.

Now, let's talk about viable fairies. Please, go ahead and list them. Oh, what's that? Arceus-Fairy? Oh no, does that mean I have to forego running Arceus-Ground? As far as we're concerned, Zac and Flutter are the only other viable fairy mons, and both of them will never come in on an Electro Drift. And moreover, one of them doesn't always carry a Fairy move, so you're not even beating Miraidon head to head most of the time!


I think there's a fundamental flaw in the understanding of pivots. You pivot not to do damage, but to maintain momentum. Who cares if you're doing 5%. Your position remains incredibly high. And you're only pivoting to soften the Grounds that you hold in such high regard.


This is the most egregious thing that has been said in the entire thread. Anyone who has built for this tier, always thinks of if the team can handle Miraidon, and often times the answer is: No, but this will at least prolong my suffering for a bit. We have seen people run 2 GROUNDS and still lose. We have seen teams that run Clodsire and Blissey and still lose to Miraidon, because of Taunt. I think the people who make this claim need to make at least 100 teams, and just look how similar the backbone "answers" you have for Miraidon look in every single team. Compiling UWC alone, you can see just how afraid every single SV person was of Miraidon from their builds. It's cope to say otherwise.

 

[vxr]

Honestly I agree with Trade. I’m tired of pretending like Arceus Ground is checking this behemoth of a mon. Tinglu is cool or whatever but it gets uturned. Last respects not being to like get banned is sucky but we should ban this lizard

agreed anybody who thinks arceus ground and ting lu are good long term checks to miraidon simply do not play the tier enough
have you ever tried to bring arceus ground and ting lu in repeatedly on miraidon throught the game ?? especially taking hazard chip each time they come in which can add up very quickly

 

[twinkay]

agreed anybody who thinks arceus ground and ting lu are good long term checks to miraidon simply do not play the tier enough
have you ever tried to bring arceus ground and ting lu in repeatedly on miraidon throught the game ?? especially taking hazard chip each time they come in which can add up very quickly

i completely agree. it's sad to see people who don't actually play ubers give opinions that seem fine in paper but fall apart in practice. arceus-ground and ting-lu simply cannot check miraidon long-term throughout the game, considering they cannot run heavy duty boots and will get worn down with hazards throughout the game. this is not even accounting for tera or u-turn. clodsire and ting-lu are also too passive and are dead weight for miraidon's teammates.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I swear a lot of people saying Miraidon is balanced because of its plethora 'checks' have very little knowledge on Ubers meta aside from the type chart. Miraidon is faster than every single on if its defensive checks (mostly ground and some fairies), and none of them are immune to U-turn. These checks can't even hold rocky helmet (Arceus ground/fairy couldn't even if it wanted to) unless they are willing to get chipped by hazards. Thus there is essentially zero risk to Miraidon spamming U-turn against so called checks. Given how little these checks invest in attack/SpA, they sometime can't even 1v1 Miraidon once they're chipped enough. And this is without bringing tera into play.

Unfortunately, Miraidon does have tera to delay with its checks. Tera Grass sets with Solar Beam treat ground types as setup fodder.

In an ideal world, Miraidon would be contained by the numerous ground types we have in Ubers (and a few fairies). But this isn't an ideal world, as Miraidon can hold item, has pivot with U-turn and has coverage like Overheat and Solar Beam.

Miraidon definitely doesn't compare to Claydex-S, which is probably the most broken pokemon ever with access to tera. But saying it's balanced using the number of checks as argument is quite out of touch, if not ignorant.

 

[Highlord]

I would love to get some input as to what this could be! It would make my building so much easier <3

I agree with you that dual pivots are hard to combat because it can feel like a one-sided 50/50 when the check to one pivot gets blown up by the other pivot.

The most straightforward way to break the loop is using checks that can threaten both. I see people in this thread dismissing SpDef Arceus because it doesn’t last forever, but that’s one of most reliable ways to escape the loop because after Miraidon U-turn because Koraidon has no business entering. I find Fairy better than Ground for this just because it’s easier to fit a different Ground type on your team for the Fairy/Ground core. Arc forms can only take a finite about a beating before hazards accumulate and/or Miraidon decides to Taunt/Tera, but forcing the switch out still gives you the opportunities to maneuver your sweepers in. There’s also Lunala which some people like, but I’m not a fan because it relies on Shadow Shield. On more aggressive BOs, you have options like Grimmsnarl, Ekiller (vs weakened Koraidon), Flutter Mane (under sun).

The more traditional method to deal with all this has always been hazards, which still works because Scarf Koraidon is vulnerable to them. If you can get Tspikes up or Spikes up before the loop begins, that very good for you because Miraidon won’t be able to pivot back to Koraidon indefinitely. Even if the chip isn’t going to kill Koraidon, that’s still progress for things like Kyogre/Ekiller in the end game.

Tera type also helps a ton just because it instantly breaks the loop. The best user for this from my experience was Ho-oh because you can snipe Miraidon with Tera Ground EQ or just become Fairy and force potential electric moves into your Grounds just to make progress. You could do the same thing with support Arc-forms, but I’m not a fan of using up the Tera on them because they’re low impact offensively + weak to hazards long term. Tera on boots EKiller is usually nice in this regard, though.

The unadvisable methods include sacking and taking the 50/50, which are still worth mentioning because every bit of counterplay accumulates. Sacking is the best way to gain momentum for HO anyway and part of the reason it thrives in this meta. I also wanted to bring up what happened after you break the loop and they’re forced to send a non-pivoting sweeper like SD Koraidon, NDM, Kyogre, DD Groundceus, etc. Well, you broke the loop and are now tasked with checking the threat and start pressuring your opponent with your own threats. That’s just how Pokemon works lol. If your team just folds to every sweeper, that’s on you. I didn’t talk about Gliscor in this post just because it’s not really an offensive threat and the risk is minimal compared to Koraidon.