np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[Nicolasdragon66]

For me, it's its ability supreme overlord who is totally broken, like last respect was. I cant vote (I'm too bad in gen 9 lol), but if I could, I would vote for not banning Kingambit. But if I was asked to vote about its supreme overlord talent, it would be a clear yes.
But its just my opinion, and my influence worth 0. And maybe its me who dont fully understand the power of Kingambit, maybe its one of reason why I wont go over 1200-1300 in ladder, but I 100% assume that Kingambit isn't broken by himself, only its main ability. I would be sad if Kingamit would be banned. I like when Pokemon help past gens pokemon by giving them an extra evolution for surviving to the power creep.

 

[ausma]

Suspecting Supreme Overlord is really tricky, as there needs to be substantive and clear evidence that Supreme Overlord is a broken/unfair element and is the primary reason that Kingambit is broken. The problem with this is that when it comes to Ability/move bans, the burden of proof is far greater as opposed to a Pokemon that has a very tangible and holistic influence in the metagame, as we have to consider the nuances of gameplay and how a non-Pokemon element plays across games and different Pokemon with different tools. Though the problem when it comes to elements only on a single Pokemon is that the burden of proof is, frankly, unachievable. How can we really isolate Supreme Overlord as the broken element and tier it when there's no other Pokemon to give us a frame of reference of its influence on a Pokemon's winning power? Kingambit itself is very well optimized to take advantage of the ability, which does contribute quite a bit to its strength, but it's for this reason that we can't really ascertain if it's the ability or if it's the whole package of Kingambit with Supreme Overlord. Similarly, we can't ban Dire Claw on Sneasler as the move is only on Sneasler, and we couldn't ban Last Respects until Basculegion was released. The same applies to Kingambit.

Furthermore, if more Pokemon wind up being broken without Kingambit's presence in the tier, we will act upon them. If the general consensus is that Kingambit takes more than it gives, then it's totally fair game to vote to remove it. The same will apply to other Pokemon that Kingambit helps check and could potentially be too much once/if it leaves the tier.

Hopefully this clarifies some things. Let me (or the rest of the council) know if you have any questions.

 

[Eelstartega]

Suspecting Supreme Overlord is really tricky, as there needs to be substantive and clear evidence that Supreme Overlord is a broken/unfair element and is the primary reason that Kingambit is broken. The problem with this is that when it comes to Ability/move bans, the burden of proof is far greater as opposed to a Pokemon that has a very tangible and holistic influence in the metagame, as we have to consider the nuances of gameplay and how a non-Pokemon element plays across games. Though the problem when it comes to elements only on a single Pokemon is that the burden of proof is, frankly, unachievable. How can we really isolate Supreme Overlord as the broken element and tier it when there's no other Pokemon to give us a frame of reference of its influence on a Pokemon's winning power? Kingambit itself is very well optimized to take advantage of the ability, which does contribute quite a bit to its strength, but it's for this reason that we can't really ascertain if it's the ability or if it's the whole package of Kingambit with Supreme Overlord. Similarly, we can't ban Dire Claw on Sneasler as the move is only on Sneasler, and we couldn't ban Last Respects until Basculegion was released. The same applies to Kingambit.

Furthermore, if more Pokemon wind up being broken without Kingambit's presence in the tier, we will act upon them. If the general consensus is that Kingambit takes more than it gives, then it's totally fair game to vote to remove it. The same will apply to other Pokemon that Kingambit helps check and could potentially be too much once/if it leaves the tier.

Hopefully this clarifies some things. Let me (or the rest of the council) know if you have any questions.

Also, we have to remind people this is the same community who preferred to MOD THE GAME over doing a complex ban or banning a mon everyone was more or less aware it was OP. Asking smogon to do complex bans is like asking a vegan to eat a BBQ.

 

[TheTraininator]

Supreme Overlord also just… isn’t fundamentally a broken ability, just strong. Kingambit having STAB 70 bp priority off of 135 base attack combined with its strong overall typing and incredibly strong 100/120/85 bulk are obviously major factors as to why it’s able to abuse the ability so well. We have blatantly better abilities like Huge Power that are legal because they’re deliberately restricted to worse Pokémon; Kingambit is just inherently well-suited to abusing the ability. Like this isn’t new territory guys, we’re literally just back to rehashing Gorilla Tactics arguments from last gen.

 

[Nicolasdragon66]

Ok, for be more accurate, its not that I think that supreme overlord is broken, its more that supreme overlord makes Kingambit so powerful. The comparative I could make is maybe Greninja in gen 6 with Protean, but its not 100% accurate. Kingambit without Supreme Overlord is a good or very good pokemon, but he is not broken or nearly broken dependly of your opinion of Kingambit.

 

[Nicolasdragon66]

Also, we have to remind people this is the same community who preferred to MOD THE GAME over doing a complex ban or banning a mon everyone was more or less aware it was OP. Asking smogon to do complex bans is like asking a vegan to eat a BBQ.

Maybe. I dont know very well how smogon works. I know the pokemon game very well. But smogon, I know what I know of them from what people said about them at 95%. I register here for know a bit more about smogon and their systems.

 

[Ctann]

Furthermore, if more Pokemon wind up being broken without Kingambit's presence in the tier, we will act upon them. If the general consensus is that Kingambit takes more than it gives, then it's totally fair game to vote to remove it.

But do you vote based on how much the Pokémon takes and gives?

or do you vote based on how OP it is?

-

There is very strong sentiment that people are unwilling to face the OPness of kingambit due to wanting it to “give” to the tier.

-

an aside, but not related to the above questions:

urshifu + Volcarona gave more than took… and were quick banned.

 

[ausma]

But do you vote based on how much the Pokémon takes and gives?

or do you vote based on how OP it is?

Everyone's voting philosophy is going to be a bit different; there is no right way to vote. If you see it as worthy to ban because it's overpowered and centralizing, then that's valid and you should vote for that. If you see it as worthy to keep unbanned because you feel it's not overpowered that's valid too, or if you feel it adds more to the metagame, that's also valid and you should vote based on that, etc etc. If you get the requisites and you have a ban/unban stance, it's all on you to decide the philosophy you vote by.

 

[Mrbanana45]

Hey! I would like to talk about my personal experience and opinion about the state of the meta by sharing the conclusions I have obtained building, laddering and reading the forums. It should be noted that these are thing I've seen and personal conclusion, hope they are taken as such...

My story

I consider myself as a building enthusiast, a few weeks ago I was trying things like explosion ofensive garg or even semi mono flying (funny rain team w 5 birds and basculegion) and having success in 1900s. But im more a defensive-like guy, so experimentation and testing began to build a solid fat balance around curse spdef dozo, but ended up finding myself into losing and getting overwhelmend by the offensive presence of the meta​

(Pedrito Navajas soy ese)​

So I was thinking: ok, maybe it was skill issue or building issue, the state of low ladder rn (w olt and suspect accounts running everywhere) might be the perfect chance to "trial and error" and improve my dozo fat, right? ... right? ...​

The bottomless pit

So I decided to try to get the reqs for the gambit suspect as a way to establish a goal, <+80% GXE using only fat>​

It was horrible. The early process of discovering and testing "ok, this core works", "ok, this mon is not doing a shit", "ok, X 6-0s all my mons" guide me into the right pat, but at the same time it gave more issues.​

​

The tools avalilable for defensive-like structures are very limited and easily overloaded, cores are really hard cuz the variety on available wallbreakers, playstyles, common teras on poweful threats, and A LOT OF HAZARDS make something as simple as a move slot a whole weakness for the rest of the team vs X threat​

​

To make this point a bit more clearer, there are some requirements that all defensive-like team need to be moderately usable in SV OU​

• A Dark Type able to handle 's Future Sights and
• A Neutral/Resist in Fairy+Ground coverage
• A super bulky water both Physical and Special in sun
• A safe switch-in in all of their sets (non-existent)
• A way to stop strong fighting types (ghost types are not an option cuz most of the time this threats run Dark coverage)
• An Unaware mon able to deal with curse and stored power mons like at the same time
• A well sinergy typing and an dedicated status absorber to do not get domed by annoying mons like and 's WoWs, 's Twaves and such
• All of the above but with enough speed to not get cooked by (lol)
• All of the above but with flying type or boots spam
• And last but not least, a check in most of their sets

At the end, after starting form 0 my sixth acc I could get the reqs and built a solid pretty cool fat team :D prob I'll make some RMT about it. This whole process was an absolute hell but was worth! Building a funcional defensive-like team its so much harder that an ofensive one, which I think shows how unbalanced and savage can be the enviroment in SV OU.​

The reqs

​

Conclusions

I personally really enjoy this meta, there's a lot of opportunity and reward for being creative and the potencial of this has been already shown (in big tours or just high ladder heat teams). But one big obstacle to that creative potencial is the ofensive overload presence theres no doubt about it. Something has to be done. Idk if the gambit ban can be the solution that the meta needs, but I think the good points that can be obtained in a meta without gambit outweigh the "drawbacks"​

​

There's no place for defensive-like playstyles rn.

If gambit gets (or not) baned, things are going to change but I'd like to be possitive about it... ​

​

If gets banned...​

• Stored power mons will become an issue... which means building will get more creative, rather than just building around a setter +5 set-up mons (if things get more complicated, we can get always a new suspect)
• Pult and Dengo get stronger... which could means a new meta bassed of positioning, rather than "who have the perfect tera mu" (prob more scarf mons)
• More usage for alternative Dark types like Meows, Muk-A (which means more viable koff distribution), Hydreigon or even Tytar (!?)

If doesn't get banned...​

• The Meta stays the same... which could mean an action on tera! (also a possitive thing)
• People will keep finding new sets and creative sets anyways so maybe the ultimate gambit counter its waiting...
• Defensive-like teams will evolve at some point eventually, maybe its not deep explored yet... (kinda excited about it)

Ty so much for taking the time to read, I've not yet my English skills and redaction perfected sorry if there's a mistake, btw I'll bote BAN odio al payasito este no me gusta

 

[Finchinator]

I intend to vote ban on Kingambit.

Some argue about the cost of removing it as it checks certain things that will remain, bu I do not subscribe to this. We can always act on the next thing, we will have the format -- more or less -- reset with DLC, and "broken checks broken" is never the objective here.

As such, the decision to me boils down to if I find Kingambit broken or not. Personally I think it is a bit much.

Throughout both tournaments like WCOP and ladder, specifically during the first couple stages of OLT, Kingambit's best attributes have been on display. It is able to handpick its own counters depending on the situation thanks to Tera, Supreme Overlord, etc. -- circumventing offensive counterplay is a pretty scary dynamic.

I think this is a close call as there are still some skillful ways around it, but it takes a lot of preservation and potentially multiple Pokemon depending upon your team and the game's state. The metagame will not be fully unsalvageable if Kingambit stays, but the strain it takes on gameplay, which can easily ripple into overly protective teambuilding and already has for some, is undeniable.

I also firmly believe Supreme Overlord does not deserve to be looked at. Any ability that only one thing gets is not going to be the subject of tiering action. Let's not revert back to the dark ages of tiering

 

[Eelstartega]

Hey! I would like to talk about my personal experience and opinion about the state of the meta by sharing the conclusions I have obtained building, laddering and reading the forums. It should be noted that these are thing I've seen and personal conclusion, hope they are taken as such...

My story

I consider myself as a building enthusiast, a few weeks ago I was trying things like explosion ofensive garg or even semi mono flying (funny rain team w 5 birds and basculegion) and having success in 1900s. But im more a defensive-like guy, so experimentation and testing began to build a solid fat balance around curse spdef dozo, but ended up finding myself into losing and getting overwhelmend by the offensive presence of the meta​

View attachment 540622(Pedrito Navajas soy ese)​

So I was thinking: ok, maybe it was skill issue or building issue, the state of low ladder rn (w olt and suspect accounts running everywhere) might be the perfect chance to "trial and error" and improve my dozo fat, right? ... right? ...​

The bottomless pit

So I decided to try to get the reqs for the gambit suspect as a way to establish a goal, <+80% GXE using only fat>​

It was horrible. The early process of discovering and testing "ok, this core works", "ok, this mon is not doing a shit", "ok, X 6-0s all my mons" guide me into the right pat, but at the same time it gave more issues.​

​

The tools avalilable for defensive-like structures are very limited and easily overloaded, cores are really hard cuz the variety on available wallbreakers, playstyles, common teras on poweful threats, and A LOT OF HAZARDS make something as simple as a move slot a whole weakness for the rest of the team vs X threat​

​

To make this point a bit more clearer, there are some requirements that all defensive-like team need to be moderately usable in SV OU​

• A Dark Type able to handle 's Future Sights and
• A Neutral/Resist in Fairy+Ground coverage
• A super bulky water both Physical and Special in sun
• A safe switch-in in all of their sets (non-existent)
• A way to stop strong fighting types (ghost types are not an option cuz most of the time this threats run Dark coverage)
• An Unaware mon able to deal with curse and stored power mons like at the same time
• A well sinergy typing and an dedicated status absorber to do not get domed by annoying mons like and 's WoWs, 's Twaves and such
• All of the above but with enough speed to not get cooked by (lol)
• All of the above but with flying type or boots spam
• And last but not least, a check in most of their sets

At the end, after starting form 0 my sixth acc I could get the reqs and built a solid pretty cool fat team :D prob I'll make some RMT about it. This whole process was an absolute hell but was worth! Building a funcional defensive-like team its so much harder that an ofensive one, which I think shows how unbalanced and savage can be the enviroment in SV OU.​

The reqs

View attachment 540625

​

Conclusions

I personally really enjoy this meta, there's a lot of opportunity and reward for being creative and the potencial of this has been already shown (in big tours or just high ladder heat teams). But one big obstacle to that creative potencial is the ofensive overload presence theres no doubt about it. Something has to be done. Idk if the gambit ban can be the solution that the meta needs, but I think the good points that can be obtained in a meta without gambit outweigh the "drawbacks"​

​

There's no place for defensive-like playstyles rn.​

​

If gambit gets (or not) baned, things are going to change but I'd like to be possitive about it... ​

​

If gets banned...​

• Stored power mons will become an issue... which means building will get more creative, rather than just building around a setter +5 set-up mons (if things get more complicated, we can get always a new suspect)
• Pult and Dengo get stronger... which could means a new meta bassed of positioning, rather than "who have the perfect tera mu" (prob more scarf mons)
• More usage for alternative Dark types like Meows, Muk-A (which means more viable koff distribution), Hydreigon or even Tytar (!?)

If doesn't get banned...​

• The Meta stays the same... which could mean an action on tera! (also a possitive thing)
• People will keep finding new sets and creative sets anyways so maybe the ultimate gambit counter its waiting...
• Defensive-like teams will evolve at some point eventually, maybe its not deep explored yet... (kinda excited about it)

Ty so much for taking the time to read, I've not yet my English skills and redaction perfected sorry if there's a mistake, btw I'll bote BAN odio al payasito este no me gusta

Kingambit might be lots of peyoratives, but IS NOT a clown.

THIS is a clown. Kingambit is a hybrid of Samurai and Chess King...

In all seriousness, I think the pros of not banning it aren't very compelling.

1. People already want to take action to free Kingambit and Volcarona from OUBL hell. You can guess my posture by looking at my profile image.
2. I don't think there's a good Kingambit counter... which isn't necessarily a problem, considering the same can be said for lots of OU-allowed wallbreakers, but also has way too few reliable checks even before factoring Tera because it's so bulky it can survive a Pyro ball from offensive cinderace without Tera.
3. THE ONLY answer on defense is Dondozo and one of the 3 competent bulky fighting types, the latter falling to fairy tera so you NEED BOTH. That's incredibly team taxing and makes you vulnerable vulnerable to other wallbreakers (Most notably fast Fairies)

I also firmly believe Supreme Overlord does not deserve to be looked at. Any ability that only one thing gets is not going to be the subject of tiering action. Let's not revert back to the dark ages of tiering

Let me guess, you're still traumatized by gen 5 and Baton Pass tiering... I get it completely.

 

[RaikouLover]

If I had the skill, time, and patience to get reqs, I would vote no ban on Kingambit. While he is certainly an annoying biotch to fight, I have no doubt in my mind that this is another OU Pokémon that the Terastalization mechanic is pushing over the top. Every time I bring solid checks to Gambit, they function exactly as intended vs it, except for when it decides to grow wings and fly over an Earthquake, lessen the blows from Close Combat, or instantly learns Fairy Blasting witchcraft and suddenly drops my Fighting and Dark types like a bad habit. In the matches where I force my opponent to use Tera before the late game, Gambit is perfectly fine to deal with.

 

[Eelstartega]

If I had the skill, time, and patience to get reqs, I would vote no ban on Kingambit. While he is certainly an annoying biotch to fight, I have no doubt in my mind that this is another OU Pokémon that the Terastalization mechanic is pushing over the top. Every time I bring solid checks to Gambit, they function exactly as intended vs it, except for when it decides to grow wings and fly over an Earthquake, lessen the blows from Close Combat, or instantly learns Fairy Blasting witchcraft and suddenly drops my Fighting and Dark types like a bad habit. In the matches where I force my opponent to use Tera before the late game, Gambit is perfectly fine to deal with.

So you now have psychic powers to know Tera will be fully banned? Otherwise it would be a TERRIBLE IDEA to ban without knowing what will be the results. The best we can do is to act on Tera according to what happened to Kingambit, not the other way around; this whole process made me clear Tera Blast is indeed an issue for instance due to Kingambit using it despite being a physical attacker.
If tera gets restricted it might be good to go, like getting proper clothing and equipment on a chemistry experiment.

 

[ant4456]

If I had the skill, time, and patience to get reqs, I would vote no ban on Kingambit. While he is certainly an annoying biotch to fight, I have no doubt in my mind that this is another OU Pokémon that the Terastalization mechanic is pushing over the top. Every time I bring solid checks to Gambit, they function exactly as intended vs it, except for when it decides to grow wings and fly over an Earthquake, lessen the blows from Close Combat, or instantly learns Fairy Blasting witchcraft and suddenly drops my Fighting and Dark types like a bad habit. In the matches where I force my opponent to use Tera before the late game, Gambit is perfectly fine to deal with.

so what you're telling us is that within the metagame conditions of which we all are playing under and will be playing under for the foreseeable future, kingambit is pushed over the edge (ie. broken), but because otherwise for the conditions the game is played with (which shapes the entire metagame, and we cannot change), it would not be broken, thus no ban?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Let me guess, you're still traumatized by gen 5 and Baton Pass tiering... I get it completely.

Imagine any time a Pokémon is being looked at "well we banned one very specific portion of Kingambit rather than the whole Mon, why can't we do it again!" Banning parts of a Pokémon is never a good idea. This matter has been addressed basically every suspect and it will never happen. Hell if we ban Supreme Overlord then why not:

-Unban flutter Mane but it can't use any moves above 60 BP
-Unban palafin but it can't switch
-Ban Iron Bundle only from teams that also have Pelipper
-unban Annihilape but it can't use Rage Fist
-allow Miraidon in the tier but it can't use STAB moves or be paired with any Quark Drive Pokémon
-Unban Volcarona but it cannot Terastalize

Hell why do we even know Supreme Overlord is the issue and why are we choosing that to ban? We could ban Kingambit from becoming Fairy or Flying and everything might be fine. Or we could ban it from holding an item. You see what I mean here, this shit is stupid. As finch has had to tell you people literally every suspect, very specific bans of parts of Pokémon are stupid and will never happen. Please stop

 

[Bakugames]

If you think tera is the only reason that gambit is broken, you should actually vote for it to be banned imo. stacking up bans of pokemon you think are healthy otherwise both helps short term (you get to play a better metagame) and with one of the main arguments against keeping tera: "are we really going to ban 40 mons to preserve this mechanic?" by actually showing the domino of bans if you believe thatd happen. going "i didnt ban x because tera is the issue" is a valid voting motive, but it does not change the current meta and thus doesn't change ppls feelings on the subject, which is already in favor of keeping tera. ur shooting urself in the foot imo

 

[RaikouLover]

So you now have psychic powers to know Tera will be fully banned? Otherwise it would be a TERRIBLE IDEA to ban without knowing what will be the results.

so what you're telling us is that within the metagame conditions of which we all are playing under and will be playing under for the foreseeable future, kingambit is pushed over the edge (ie. broken), but because otherwise for the conditions the game is played with (which shapes the entire metagame, and we cannot change), it would not be broken, thus no ban?

I am a washed up has been player. My post was not about strategic voting. On the basis of merit, and my experiences fighting Kingambit, I genuinely do not think the mon on face value is broken. Whenever I lose to Gambit, it is a result of some Tera bullshit. When it doesn’t get the opportunity to Tera, it is just a stronger version of its pre-evo. It’s not ever getting past things that check it; and there are many of those. It’s only when it pulls Tera magic tricks out of its ass. My brain has long disassociated Tera with the Pokémon that abuse it. Probably an unpopular way to look at it but this is a discussion thread..

 

[ant4456]

I am a washed up has been player. My post was not about strategic voting. On the basis of merit, and my experiences fighting Kingambit, I genuinely do not think the mon on face value is broken. Whenever I lose to Gambit, it is a result of some Tera bullshit. When it doesn’t get the opportunity to Tera, it is just a stronger version of its pre-evo. It’s not ever getting past things that check it; and there are many of those. It’s only when it pulls Tera magic tricks out of its ass. My brain has long disassociated Tera with the Pokémon that abuse it. Probably an unpopular way to look at it but this is a discussion thread..

I agree that Terastilization makes Kingambit broken

Which is why I think it should be banned

Not every Pokemon abuses Tera equally, and I'm not even saying that as a "pro tera Defense", it's just straight up true

I think it may be very likely that in a few months or less another Pokemon takes Kingambit's place, because of Tera, but in that case I'd also probably say it should be banned

 

[Eelstartega]

I am a washed up has been player. My post was not about strategic voting. On the basis of merit, and my experiences fighting Kingambit, I genuinely do not think the mon on face value is broken. Whenever I lose to Gambit, it is a result of some Tera bullshit. When it doesn’t get the opportunity to Tera, it is just a stronger version of its pre-evo. It’s not ever getting past things that check it; and there are many of those. It’s only when it pulls Tera magic tricks out of its ass. My brain has long disassociated Tera with the Pokémon that abuse it. Probably an unpopular way to look at it but this is a discussion thread..

Yup, it's incredibly unpopular because... I'll just let Floatstone Mafia explain it for me better than i ever could.

"I feel like a lot of people are missing the point of the suspect test. This is not a multiple choice. You should not be voting against a Kingambit ban because you think that it's the fault of Supreme Overlord, or it's tera's fault. Whether or not you think something else should have been suspected is irrelevant. This is the test you have in front of you right now. This is a simple yes no answer - is Kingambit too strong for the current iteration of OU. Regardless of why it's too good for OU, if the answer is yes then you should vote yes. If the answer is no you should vote no. We can visit Tera or Supreme Overlord regardless of if Kingambit is banned or not later down the road. The result of this test don't affect future action at all. Actually if you want Tera banned, you should be voting everything possible off the island just to prove how ridiculous the steps required to keep Tera in OU are going to be, then be pleasantly surprised if it turns out the problem was the mons and not Tera. These people saying 'I don't want Kingambit banned because I'm protesting it not being Tera' is insane to me. It's not like we're not probably going to revert Kingambit/Volc/Espratha/Lele bans in case of a Tera ban anyways because these mons are being banned on the back of Tera. The best evidence you could ever give for a Tera ban is if Tera results in having a 'garbage in ubers, too strong for OU' list so large we can unironically start a OUBL tier. Conversely the best evidence for keeping Tera is if we ban enough mons that the tier stabilizes. I really think I just talked myself in supporting a ban because we need progress somewhere, and a no-ban results in us running in circles. I don't really care about Kingambit as a mon, but something needs to change."

FloatstoneMafia, 2023

I cannot disagree with them AT ALL. It's a good reasoning of thinking the "what is too much for OU". I can totally buy a tera blast ban + Team preview which should unban both Kingambit, Espathra, Regieleki and Volcarona. Tera preview is not enough, nor is Tera Blast Ban, but both? Maybe now Kingambit is manegeable like the mon it's supposed to be and turn the mechanic into its core aspect of type changing without the cheese or busted hidden powers. But until then, the better course of action is to ban Kingambit, then either propose a full restrict or ban of Tera, unless you did not found anything OP with unrestricted Tera Kingambit, which you didn't.

PS: I DID NOT edit the comment to sound like something I wanted him to say, juspt put cursive letter and some bolding of key terms for style points. Here and on the quoting now you can see the original comment who reads exactly the same as the one I showed before.

 

[RaikouLover]

I cannot disagree with them AT ALL. It's a good reasoning of thinking the "what is too much for OU". I can totally buy a tera blast ban + Team preview which should unban both Kingambit, Espathra, Regieleki and Volcarona. Tera preview is not enough, nor is Tera Blast Ban, but both? Maybe now Kingambit is manegeable like the mon it's supposed to be and turn the mechanic into its core aspect of type changing without the cheese or busted hidden powers. But until then, the better course of action is to ban Kingambit, then either propose a full restrict or ban of Tera, unless you did not found anything OP with unrestricted Tera Kingambit, which you didn't.

I agree with this and with the strategic explanation. For me it won’t matter either way because I’m washed. However, I do think this metagame is really warped and Tera Gambit is a significant force right now. My brain for some reason considers Kingambit, Fairygambit, and Birdgambit to be separate Pokémon, with the latter two being certainly busted.

 

[Ctann]

We are at a point in the meta where it’s become the following:

- standard (best overall matchups) kingambit is now fairy or flying, with fairy gaining lots of momentum over flying. Used to break past common fighting/ground Pokémon’s.

- alternative (second best matchups) kingambit is dark or fighting. Used to matchup against dondozo, corviknight, whilst being okay against the fighting/grounds.

- niche (specific matchups) kingambit is fire or ghost. Either for getting free SD on moltres/cinderace or beating fighting types whilst blocking rapid spin.

- fringe (mostly used for fun, hyper niche and sometimes viable) kingambit is grass, water, electric. These are whack sets that sometimes work, the grass one in particular deletes a lot of stall staples and is the only reliable answer to breloom.

 

[Xufactor]

Suspecting Supreme Overlord is really tricky, as there needs to be substantive and clear evidence that Supreme Overlord is a broken/unfair element and is the primary reason that Kingambit is broken. The problem with this is that when it comes to Ability/move bans, the burden of proof is far greater as opposed to a Pokemon that has a very tangible and holistic influence in the metagame, as we have to consider the nuances of gameplay and how a non-Pokemon element plays across games and different Pokemon with different tools. Though the problem when it comes to elements only on a single Pokemon is that the burden of proof is, frankly, unachievable. How can we really isolate Supreme Overlord as the broken element and tier it when there's no other Pokemon to give us a frame of reference of its influence on a Pokemon's winning power? Kingambit itself is very well optimized to take advantage of the ability, which does contribute quite a bit to its strength, but it's for this reason that we can't really ascertain if it's the ability or if it's the whole package of Kingambit with Supreme Overlord. Similarly, we can't ban Dire Claw on Sneasler as the move is only on Sneasler, and we couldn't ban Last Respects until Basculegion was released. The same applies to Kingambit.

Furthermore, if more Pokemon wind up being broken without Kingambit's presence in the tier, we will act upon them. If the general consensus is that Kingambit takes more than it gives, then it's totally fair game to vote to remove it. The same will apply to other Pokemon that Kingambit helps check and could potentially be too much once/if it leaves the tier.

Hopefully this clarifies some things. Let me (or the rest of the council) know if you have any questions.

Moves and abilities are not banned for being broken/unfair by themselves. When only one mon with the aspect is broken, the mon is banned. When multiple mons with the aspect are broken and would not be broken without, the aspect may be banned. When all 2+ mons with the aspect are broken, the aspect is banned.

In the case of Last Respects and Supreme Overload, the issue is not evidence of how good the aspect is. It is fairly easy to see what kinds of mons would be broken with the mechanic, mainly due to their attacking stats. With Baton Pass there is more creativity.

Arena Trap Dugtrio is legal in SS Ubers while Shadow Tag is banned. If moves/abilities are banned for being broken, is Shadow Tag broken but Arena Trap isn't just because Arena Trap can't trap fliers? What is the burden of proof that Arena Trap is not broken but Shadow tag is? Moves and abilities are almost never broken in isolation. It depends on the mons that have the mechanic.

 

[Srn]

Sheesh I've been procrastinating getting reqs.

If you've been keeping up with my previous posts, you can guess my stance.
A lot of what I said in my big tera post here also applies to gambit, so let me just copy/paste some bits:

I scoured wcop replays but let me also provide one from myself. I think it's ridiculous that last mon Kingambit+Tera can reverse sweep 1-4 through wisp and 100% healthy bulk up tusk. Kingambit is inherently balanced by its 4x fighting weakess, the type that also resists sucker punch, and would not be broken without tera. In case my dear reader is unaware, the team I fought is loosely referred to as "german 6" and saw great success in wcop this year with slight variations, so I believe my opponent has beaten the "build better" allegations. The meta is very volatile and by the time you're reading this, german 6 may just be a relic of the past, but believe me when I say this team was dominant when I fought it. I don't think any big chokes or lucky breaks dictated the outcome of the game here and they had 2k+ elo; I believe they lack the "skill issue". I was only able to win this battle because I happened to bring the right kingambit+tera set that basically won on preview, a set that my opponent had absolutely no way of knowing even though they were very well prepared for gambit with wisp cinderace+bulk up tusk.

German 6 has held up reasonably well imo, and so I think this replay has aged well too. Kingambit can easily break through very well prepared teams, and it can only do this thanks to tera. Im seeing a lot of weird cope about banning Supreme Overlord, and it looks like the same cope about Light Clay or Stored Power bans. It is all dancing around the real problem: tera. Without it, any reasonably bulky close combat user (Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, even Quaquaval) would be enough to check kingambit lategame. Tera is the only thing that pushes kingambit over the edge. Without it, kingambit would be fine.

As a reminder, players cannot be reasonably expected to predict tera types on Kingambit, and different tera types have hugely different counterplay.

"Almost all the tera's are deducable on a team by just analysing the structure of the team and how they are playing it,all that requires for you to be able to deduce it is be a good skilled player AND HAVE A LOT OF GAMES PLAYED IN SV to gain experience in the tier and understand what's ran where"

I want every pro-tera player to look at this replay and just look at the preview. If you're familiar with this game, you know that the baxcalibur is dd tera blast fire, a tech used to get around common bax counterplay such as balloon kingambit/gholdengo. So can somebody explain to me, using words and arguments NOT intuition, how Luthier could've pieced together that the baxcalibur was tera blast fire? Specifically what about MichaelderBeste2's team gives away the hint that it is tera blast fire?

Ok fine maybe preview isn't enough information. Can you point out which turn in particular, which play gave you solid information that you could use to reason that baxcalibur was tera blast fire? It's easier to create explanations in hindsight but I really want you to put yourself in Luthier's shoes, pretend you only know about team preview and the information gathered from turns 1-3.

If, for whatever reason, you cannot use your skill, experience, or metagame knowledge to explain to me how you could've known or even had a strong hunch that baxcalibur was going to be tera blast fire...maybe deducing tera from team structure isn't a skill? The people who dislike preview claim that it is removing skill by showing that information, but I think it's not a skill to begin with. You can get familiar with team structures but your opponent's tera types are ambiguous at best and random at worst.

"But top players are consistent" see part 1.
"But the random tera didn't immediately win!" I agree, that's not the point I'm trying to make.
"That set is bad it just loses to tusk anyway!" That's a fair opinion, but not what I'm trying to argue.
"You can guess almost all of them!" Alright, let's have a little wager. Take a look at this pastebin, which contains the full team of my Arboliva Sun. This team almost hit 1900s, its not a complete meme. Storm zone is almost hitting 2k with his own arboliva team, not a complete meme pokemon either. The pokemon are torkoal, great tusk, arboliva, walking wake, ceruledge, and corviknight. PM me your tera type guesses and I'll give you the password to unlock the pastebin and check. This way, I can't change the tera types after you guess.
Arboliva on sun isn't even bad bro, sun just sucks because fighting Chilly Reception Glowking all the time is an uphill battle.
I bet you can't get all of them.

However, we are not discussing a ban or even a suspect on tera, not now and not anytime soon since DLC is dropping pretty soon too. We are assessing what to do about Kingambit in the current state of the meta, regardless of
-Whether or not DLC is dropping soon
-Whether or not something will happen to Tera Blast
-What will happen to the meta (domino effect) in the next month as a result of a potential ban.

Kingambit is broken right now, the meta sucks right now, and the course of action is clear right now.

BAN KINGAMBIT

 

[Wolf-X]

I would first act on Tera and THEN act on Kingambit as the biggest issue with Kingambit is tera...

 

[Moyashi]

I would first act on Tera and THEN act on Kingambit as the biggest issue with Kingambit is tera...

Especially with DLC a mere moment month away bringing a new wave of Pokemon, this is not feasible. And it's just not how the process is happening now. Judge kingambit as is with Tera.