np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 16 - Zero To Hero

[ShizuOsaka]

Since I got my req, I would pretty much want Palafin to be unbanned.

In terms of personal bias, I like dolphins, especially when they are in Maatsura Kanan's icon.

Outside of that, I think Palafin is not only healthy but also contributes to the tier.
In order to check Palafin, we have a plethora of grass mons that we would also use to check Waterpon like Sinischa or... opposing Waterpon. Pecharunt has been a good pick lately, and it doesn't mind Jet Punch much. Unless you go through loops and holes of making Rain boosted tera water Wave Crass Palafin, Pecharunt is fine most of the times. In addition, Palafin itself is just like Walking Wake or Rain-boosted Barraskewda. It is absurd to think the dolphin is considered broken but not the other two, since they work under the same concept but with much better stats.

And what does Palafin bring to the tier? Well the good news is: You get another set-up sweeper that you can use in balance teams. Palafin is basically a "fairer" Kingambit: It has a good enough priority for revenge killing, while not having an insanely strong ability like Supreme Overlord. On top of that, it has good utility moves to clap stalls like Taunt and Bulk Up. I appreciate another good set-up sweeper for Balance.

Flaw as my argument may be, but I genuinely want Palafin to be OU again.

 

[mcribs]

This is cap. You just aren't skilled enough to get 80% GXE. I was only able to do this once for the Tera suspect when the ladder was inflated, so I count myself among one of those less-skilled players, so this isn't me being on a high horse or anything as 90% of players who say they don't have time to get reqs simply aren't good enough to get them.

Do you...do you not go outside...?

like its vacation for a lot of people, a decent amount of them dont have time to do reqs. I dont, im busy in japan skiing. Sure, im not the best player, but labelling all people not doing reqs not skilled is just stupid.

 

[Bunger Royale]

I'm not good enough to get reps, so I'm going to spam the laugh reaction on every post that disagrees with me to sway the vote.

But seriously, I don't think Fin is broken, but I can totally understand those who think it just adds another powerhouse to the tier while not adding enough to justify it.

I'm pro Fin staying, but if it ends up staying banned, I'm at least glad we tested it.

 

[sims796]

This is cap. You just aren't skilled enough to get 80% GXE. I was only able to do this once for the Tera suspect when the ladder was inflated, so I count myself among one of those less-skilled players, so this isn't me being on a high horse or anything as 90% of players who say they don't have time to get reqs simply aren't good enough to get them.

Maybe Daddy is one of the 10% who means what he says? Why bother calling it out?

I'm definitely not skilled enough (yet) so I've been refraining from giving my experiences, but that's silly. I've played, I've learned, I'm not stupid.

Palafin doesn't belong here. In the lower elo, people don't seem to know how to use it, prompting me to see Flip Turn as a waste of a move (I'm glad I asked for clarification). It's not hard to handle there. I tend to focus on grass types anyway, and between Kyu & Ogrepon I'm over prepared for both one shot waters and mons that like to switch.

I just don't think this is the meta for it. On its own, no biggie, but I actually am still struggling with Kyu, I'm sick of Raging Bolt, and being over prepared for Kingambit just to screw up one turn and lose (one needs to have Kingambit in the front of their mind for the entire game, even if it only makes an appearance as the literal last mon). I don't think we need to add a 160 base attacker we just got rid of Gouging for similar shit.

 

[pika pal]

Also, lacking time isn't trying to excuse being "less skilled" theoretically: The Meta with Palafin in it is a very different game that takes time to learn and practice, and some players might need more time to pick up on that to the point of proficiency.

This isn't a slight or a flex, I'm certainly not great myself, but better players will take less time to adapt, on top of the general time variance that laddering for a qualified Alt can take for any number of universal reasons. Time that I imagine even some "good" players might just elect not to put in given the Holiday season has a lot of other recreational or familial uses for their time.

 

[Cape Canaveral]

Palafin is probably going to be fine. I think this is a similar case to what we had with Kyurem; many of these sets that allow Palafin to pick their checks are highly volatile and will probably be phased out eventually. As for guessing what the set is, this would probably also not be too difficult after a while, when Palafin becomes a more stable presence in the tier, and there's a bit of adaptation from teams that naturally deal with Palafin's most potent sets. Like others have said, Palafin is not even close to the biggest threat in the tier. I don't think Palafin is as strong as people think on webs or offense in general.

So the question is kind of whether we want to play with offense in its current state or play with slightly nerfed offense and buffed pivoting and balance structures. It would be a pretty big change and I personally don't see enough wrong with the offense and balance in the tier right now, but if you do I think this is probably the best chance you'll get in a while to bring the metagame in that direction.

 

[Finchinator]

There’s just no way this thread needed to go down the rabbit hole of calling a user out for being incapable of getting reqs -> the user sharing his entire day-to-day schedule during the suspect to prove he didn’t have time.

These things simply do not need to ever happen. Come on now

I deleted the posts. Let’s get back on topic

 

[RainebowValiant]

There’s just no way this thread needed to go down the rabbit hole of calling a user out for being incapable of getting reqs -> the user sharing his entire day-to-day schedule during the suspect to prove he didn’t have time.

These things simply do not need to ever happen. Come on now

Smogon: born to be twitter, forced to be wikipedia

In all seriousness, Palafin is simply not a necessary Pokemon in the metagame. It encourages the rise of Zapdos, Raging Bolt, Waterpon, and more, all absolute cancer Pokemon, without actually adding counterplay to major pieces in the metagame. Zama will be fine, Kyurem will be fine, Bolt will be fine, etc. It kinda just fits into the metagame as yet another broken without improving it. "Oh but another priority option-" be happy with Bolt, Gambit, Dnite, Cinder, Weavile, Rilla, Iron Valiant, Lokix, and Scizor. Thanks.

 

[the great mega]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to retest Palafin!

Let's start with some relevant information:

• As part of Smogon's 12 Days of Likeshop - 2024 hosted by UT (who deserves huge recognition for putting in hours of thankless work to make this possible), I agreed to allow for an OU suspect to be triggered if we hit 500k likes contributed to the cause
• After a little drama and a LOT of likes being contributed, Palafin surpassed 500k likes as of earlier today, which was made official here -- that triggered this retest of Palafin in SV OU
• For those unfamiliar with OU retests of Ubers and Policy Review history, the threshold for a retested Pokemon to drop to OU officially is a standard majority per here
• Some changes that were implemented from last suspect test are still in place for this retest -- you can consult this post outlining the new voting reqs, qualified discussion thread, and suspect verification system (follow-up post on that system here as well)

Like it or not, Palafin is jetting back into OU for a retest! Reactions aside, the Christmas dolphin will get another opportunity to punch through SV OU after getting quickbanned all the way back in 2022. Flipping back the calendar 25 months, Palafin (and Iron Bundle) was (were) banned from SV OU via council vote with Palafin going unanimously. With another turn to linger in OU, suspect participants will be able to determine if Palafin's usage will return to zero in a few weeks or if it will be the hero of our flagship metagame! So be sure not to crash out anytime soon as we have our most wavy suspect of the generation, a Palafin retest!

Palafin is a unique case as the base form is a liability and mandates maneuvering around, but Zero to Hero turns Palafin into a juggernaut. Mono-Water is a historically superb defensive typing and it plays well with Tera compliments; this allowed for a Taunt + Bulk Up Palafin with a defensive Tera type to ravage the infant SV OU metagame. Jet Punch provided priority to circumvent revenge killing attempts, Drain Punch provided coverage and healing, and Taunt was able to thwart opposing attempts to status it while Bulk Up made the most of free turns. On the flip side, there are offensive variants of Palafin which can be strong, but limited, when used. While the aforementioned Bulk Up variant thrived off of Palafin's great natural bulk, let's not forget it has 160 base Attack and 100 base Speed, granting the dolphin some breaking potential. The offensive sets were not what broke Palafin initially, but times change and applications of any Pokemon will vary as the generation transpires.

Speaking of times changing, there is a lot of hope within the community that Palafin will not be as problematic. If this means it is still broken or not will be up to the jury -- the voters -- to judge of course, but there are many more potential checks and counters to Palafin in the metagame. Since the initial ban of Palafin, SV OU has added Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta-Hero, Sinistcha, Rillaboom, Walking Wake, Serperior, Alomomola, and other Pokemon that may match-up favorably with Palafin. However, one of Palafin's best traits is using the appropriate and timely defensive Tera type to circumvent certain offensive counterplay, which could feasibly lead to it defeating various offensive Pokemon listed above if the circumstances line-up properly. There is a lot of give-and-take to that dynamic, which will make metagame response (and Palafin's potential counter-response, etc.) one of the most interesting components of this retest!

In terms of defensive counterplay, the metagame will be able to withstand even the most potent possibilities from Palafin like Choice Band Wave Crash simply due to the abundance of resists and immunities to a single STAB Pokemon that takes a lot of recoil alongside the negative possibilities of locking into coverage in offensive game states. However, the combination of this with the finnesse variants of Palafin like Bulk Up and potential new applications of Palafin will be at the forefront of discussions throughout this retest. It is easy for an Ogerpon-Wellspring to catch a single Jet Punch or Wave Crash, an Alomomola to sponge any single attack with ease and pivot out, or offensive resists like Raging Bolt, Dragonite, or Kyurem to hold their position once or twice over while forcing their own progress, but Palafin brings so much more nuance than linear attackers due to its bulk, set-up prospects with defensive Tera options, and priority Jet Punch, which can let it circumvent typical revenge killing mechanisms.

With everything considered, Palafin's retest is likely to be one of the most exciting suspects of the generation and I hope we get a lot of participation both in the vote and threads. It was undoubtebly broken when initially freed during SV OU's release in 2022, but it has been over two years and so many new Pokemon, which can potentially serve as counterplay, are now prominent in the metagame! Palafin has immediate drawbacks due to a lackluster base form, but goes from Zero to Hero literally and figuratively with much increased bulk and power upon reentering battle. While it does not necessarily thrive as a STAB mashing breaker always, this is still an option and Bulk Up serves it incredibly well alongside Jet Punch. Can the metagame withstand these options and adapt to potential new applications or will Palafin be too much once more? We will have to find out with this retest!

Good luck to everyone participating in the suspect test. I hope you all have happy holidays! Regardless of where you stand on Palafin, SV OU, or anything else, we are all rooting for each other within this community

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played OU before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Finchinator and/or Ruft
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Finchinator or Ruft!

The requirement to vote in this suspect retest is a ELO of 1750 and GXE of 80! This was done after discussion in this thread. The deadline for getting requirements will be Friday, January 3rd at 11 PM GMT-5. Good luck to all!

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Palafin is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Palafin vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

VIEW VOTER REQS HERE

I feel like finch could update this thread as I believe we have a new req system (gxe)

 

[Finchinator]

I feel like finch could update this thread as I believe we have a new req system (gxe)

The OP has the current/new reqs of 1750 ELO + 80 GXE. It is reflected in the post you quoted and has been there the entire suspect.

 

[Avira]

Gotta say I love Finchinator for shooting down removing GXE requirements and implementing COIL requirements instead, which would like double turnout by making it much, much, much easier to get reqs. Only the skilled should get a vote whereas COIL requirements allow any average Joe to qualify by playing enough games. And I count myself among those without the necessary skill to get reqs as getting them once by fluke doesn't mean I can do it again.

 

[pika pal]

Just got reqs and will be voting ban, I do not have a ton to contribute throughout the thread without repeating most people on this side of the argument, but an argument about palafin particularly stands out to me regarding the "useless palafin turn". Pokemon is a game of momentum anyway, and when other factors in the game like hazards also take a turn to set up, palafin's setup turn isn't an egregious trade-off and it's less risky relative to other dead turns as palafin has flip turn access. The ability being "useless" is also not true, since getting the massive upgrade from baby to hero form is good enough to be worth the cost of one turn. Not to mention the fact that Darkrai, a mon who has consistently been OU for the generation, literally does have a useless ability.

Me wanting to be mildly pedantic by mentioning that Bad Dreams is less "literally... useless" in OU than Zero-to-Hero techically, since Rest still exists as a means to end up facing a Sleeping Pokemon and is on at least 1 relevant set (1/8th Health per sleep turn means a 2HKO on Dondozo rather than 3, so it can't burn Sleep turns on you). I disagree a bit with the premise that Palafin's set-up turn to transform is comparable to something like setting up a Hazard, at least in Gen 9 with how easy the latter is, on the grounds that you are sinking momentum into Palafin for it to DO anything later, whereas with something like Glimmora or Samurott-H, setting the Hazard is the something they're there to do in the first place

I'm also curious how useful Flip Turn actually is on Zero-Palafin (Hero obviously makes good use of it), since it doesn't exactly present a damage threat and mostly serves to break the Sash of a Hazard lead while switching out. That said, Flip Turn also means Palafin taking a hit on its markedly lower defenses, with a Mon whose main concern is already Chip Damage for either Nuke sets or Set-up seeking entry to Bulk Up. I have to wonder how often Palafin fares better Flip Turning vs Hard Switching to give up less for the turn.

 

[DripLegend]

Flip Turn also means Palafin taking a hit on its markedly lower defenses, with a Mon whose main concern is already Chip Damage for either Nuke sets or Set-up seeking entry to Bulk Up.

I mean in this case you just would not click flip turn if you're gonna get hit , it's not to say it will always get that value but the comparison of hazards the way I see it is highlighting how not every interaction is so black and white when the value gained isn't immediately giving you huge momentum. As well as the sink of one turn being common in most playstyles that are not just HO.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Rain: 260-307 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 247-291 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 313-369 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if someone can give me a sufficient amount of counters not named ogerpon to this shit in rain then I will vote no ban but otherwise send this shit back to Ubers

By this logic Walking Wake should have been quickbanned when it was released.

 

[samohi0]

By this logic Walking Wake should have been quickbanned when it was released.

Walking wake can’t break through everything because it’s either slow and susceptible to being revenged or fast and can’t break through walls palafin can do both all you have to do is pivot once

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Walking wake can’t break through everything because it’s either slow and susceptible to being revenged or fast and can’t break through walls palafin can do both all you have to do is pivot once

Palafin is even slower than walking wake, and has worse coverage. Jet Punch is quite weak without multiple boosts.
Palafin has more defensive checks than Wake does, and Wake can also pivot.

Not saying wake is as broken, but the choice band calcs are very dumb if used as whole argument.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Gotta say I love Finchinator for shooting down removing GXE requirements and implementing COIL requirements instead, which would like double turnout by making it much, much, much easier to get reqs. Only the skilled should get a vote whereas COIL requirements allow any average Joe to qualify by playing enough games. And I count myself among those without the necessary skill to get reqs as getting them once by fluke doesn't mean I can do it again.

the previous system was so unsatisfactory that some of the gen's top players decided to cheat rather than go through it. the current system amplifies only the problems with it. the numbers are showing less participation, percentage-wise, from the exact group of people this reqs reform was supposed to cater to, while doing nothing to solve any of the real problems of the suspect process (or even the made-up ones). this so-called "reform" has been a colossal failure in every sense of the word. can we stop trying to gatekeep everyone who isn't a tour player and switch to coil like literally every other format is using?

 

[Venuesaur]

So I actually made reqs after my second try; I didn't have time all throughout the fall because of university and reqs being stressful enough as is. I'm gonna be honest, I do think a better idea would be a flat elo req; i had smth like 83 gxe when i cleared but I was pretty stressed the entire time and I wouldn't have been able to dedicate time to doing this during my school year, despite this only taking 2 alts, so relatively little time. I understand the point of the gxe req, as Finch stated, is to make sure that a bad player can't just put in a ton of time and get lucky and to create a barrier to make sure people who vote actually have the requisite metagame knowledge, and I respect that reasoning. However, I think as is, the improvements amplify the problems with reqs, mainly being how time consuming they are. 1750 + 80 gxe isn't that strenuous, but it only takes you messing up a little bit to lose a game, and that can seriously impact your run, especially considering that a dead run means you need to grind all over again.

I think the biggest problem with reqs is the tedium, and this doesn't actually solve that problem. I understand that some people have the philosophy that a bigger skill barrier in obtaining reqs, which is valid, but I think more strenuous reqs is worse even for those who have the skill to qualify.

TLDR: the suspect test changes are flawed and should implement a flat elo req (or COIL maybe) to reduce tedium.

 

[Finchinator]

This whole post is nonsense and does not even mention Palafin (nor does the post it is responding to TBF), but here we go.

the previous system was so unsatisfactory that some of the gen's top players decided to cheat rather than go through it.

The cheating occured due to laziness of certain players, not because of the system. BW had rampant suspect cheating with a vastly different system, too.

the current system amplifies only the problems with it.

The most common complaints in the PR thread were all addresseed in the conservative shift to reqs. You can argue those are not the most needed issues and that is a large part of why the thread is re-opened, but to say this is just misguided

the numbers are showing less participation, percentage-wise, from the exact group of people this reqs reform was supposed to cater to, while doing nothing to solve any of the real problems of the suspect process (or even the made-up ones).

IDK how you gauge this, but last suspect and this retest are on pace for very average turnouts despite having slightly harder reqs.

this so-called "reform" has been a colossal failure in every sense of the word. can we stop trying to gatekeep everyone who isn't a tour player and switch to coil like literally every other format is using?

Seeing as reqs have barely changed (virtually everyone who could get reqs before can now...the GXE floor is still the same and it only takes 2-3 more games than 80 GXE reqs getters previously needed), calling it a "colossal failure" is more your imagination and silly exaggeration than anything. It is not a colossal failure or success -- it is just a minor shift one way or another. COIL does not work for OU for a myriad of reasons already touched.

I have no clue why you felt the need to go on this tangent that was not backed by fact or data in a thread unrelated to the topic -- this is the Palafin suspect thread -- but politely refrain from doing so. If you got issues with the suspect process, either get a badge to post in PR or PM me/ruft. I engage with countless people on this topic in those places and am happy to talk with you, but derailing a suspect thread is for sure not it.

 

[CoralReaper707]

no. just no.
I am not letting history repeat itself. We tried out Palafin before, and it was broken then.
We're suspecting it in OU, and it's still busted.
No thanks. We're not letting that thing's unholy bulk up set tear through OU again. DO NOT unban this thing.
Keep banned.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

no. just no.
I am not letting history repeat itself. We tried out Palafin before, and it was broken then.
We're suspecting it in OU, and it's still busted.
No thanks. We're not letting that thing's unholy bulk up set tear through OU again. DO NOT unban this thing.
Keep banned.

i've addressed this before, but palafin's bulk really isn't "unholy". it's very good, especially for a setup sweeper, but nothing to really write home about on its own, especially with its only recovery being the semi-reliable-at-best drain punch

now, this isn't a defense (heh heh) of the mon, it's actually one of the key reasons why we don't need palafin here. it doesn't provide anything defensively that something else can't do better. it doesn't come in on some interesting combination of unhealthy things that allows for new healthier structures to arise, or fit as a third mon into good two-mon defensive cores, or anything like that. everything it ostensibly adds is some offensive-oriented thing that a million other mons already do. i'm not particularly a fan of this flavor of discussion point, but i felt like i should at least touch on it

 

[Pokemh]

Hi, I want to give my thoughts on Palafin. Since I think it is not the issue but what is being run because of it is the real problem, while it does have a lot of different sets with different sets I think it on it's own is fine.

If you have been laddering or have been watching ladder you probably notice a lot more Pecha, Sinistcha, Spd Treads, Bolt, Tera Water Molt, Dnite, Moon, and Tera Water Lu etc. These mons are very solid or were viable before but now that they are forced the teams being run right now are completely different from a few weeks ago and I don't think this is a positive. Something I saw on high ladder recently was literally double water, double ground, double steel. I think teams like this wouldn't ever be used before Palafin was unbanned or would at least be very rare. Ting + Treads and 2 water resists seem like a very common core atm because bolt being used a lot means you can't run off Tusk + Gking and get away with that being your options vs Bolt since you are bound to run into it a significant amount more than before Palafin was unbanned. I do see a lot of people using teams from before Palafin but they tend to be offense with like pult + Moon, Dnite + Chesto Zama, or bulkier teams with 2 water resists like the Sinistcha Dnite Keld team we were seeing a few weeks ago that imo has gotten even better with Palafin being in the meta.

I don't hate anything about what the meta is like right now but a change this significant when we arguably have a ton of mons that deserve their own suspect feels weird. Why are we trying to unban a mon that has been gone since the beginning of the gen out of nowhere? I have seen many viable sets that seem to be serious and need their own checks to be dealt with. Tera Poison BU, Lum Tera Blast Electric, Punching Glove, Lum Terablast Fairy, 3A Ice Punch, and Taunt Drain Punch. A few that are support sets or aren't very dangerous rn Encore CC Flip Turn Jet Punch, and CB. I think CB is not the set to worry about because Sinistcha, WA, Dnite, and other water resists make it just feel like Barra on steroids that doesn't do anything too different from Barra just better priority and same coverage in CC, it is missing Pjab but when CC usually ohkoes Waterpon it does not matter.

I will be showing some replays of what teams I have been seeing and what Palafin is doing in the replay.
Pivot Palafin:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272750721?p2
Pech Dnite No CB or Ice Punch to threaten either Palafin Checks so it doesn't do much

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272658716
Nothing too crazy but it does get rid of specs basc but it already died to hazards and had priority for Moon

CB:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2271133227?p2
Honestly does good work here getting rid of weakened Bolt and getting rid of Ghold but a little too late


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272329489?p2
Physdef Pecha Specs Bolt AV Alo

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2271331001
Rilla Gseed Latias Moon Araq Webs & Meow Sub Tect Kyurem and Garg or Zap is the Tera Water/Dragon likely

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272547628?p2
Waterpon Dnite Molt + Tect Garg does well in scouting what Palafin Clicks

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272359591?p2
Meow Boots Kyurem potentially Water/Dragon Corv

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2272356734
Moon Meow Prim HO

I again don't think Palafin is too much of an issue by itself but I do not think we should unban something so random. Stacking checks also doesn't make something less broken as well. And adding to stacking checks not only can some of these Palafin sets still beat some teams with stacked checks but you make yourself weaker to Kyurem Bolt and a lot of other threats. I think Kyurem is the biggest winner from Palafins unban offensively, when you have to fit Sinistcha Tera Water/Dragons some Grounds for Bolt Dice is easily taking games off of you. Bolt still feels fine because you can run Treads or Lu Bolt in rain is beating these two though.. but rain seems pretty rare rn. And finally I also think it is pretty easy to not "waste a turn" with Palafin because there are a lot of slower mons to flip turn on (quite a fair bit actually if you are jolly boots or CB). And if you are some BU set you are probably going to want to come in very safely or what's the point.

(Sorry if I missed anything or don't make much sense I made this in a bit of a rush feel free to correct anything!)

 

[Stories]

Palafin doesn’t feel blatantly broken to me, but it feels like one of those borderline mons like Kyurem, Gliscor, or Waterpon where they’re broken enough to be super annoying. Due to this Palafin just adds to the congestion of the tier and really just contributes to the problem rather than helping, which defeats the purpose of unbanning it anyway. just keep it banned imo

 

[Licholas]

2) Straight from the tiering policy framework:

• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

Idc if you think palafin is fun or balanced. Tiering policy is asking you to tell us why palafin is NECESSARY to SV OU. Finally, the onus is on the DNB crowd must make good arguments >:)

• No discussion on the suspect process
• This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council.

Howdy,

I have read both the old and the new tiering policy frameworks, as well as some of the policy review archive. I have quoted the rules which I am breaking when I say that the framing of this suspect test is a break from the status quo. This quickly chosen link is merely one of the many examples in which someone states Smogon's initial purpose—that is, to tier Pokemon. Here, the relevant quote is We consider it desirable to have, for each Pokemon, at least one metagame where it is reasonable to use that Pokemon.

If it is of the same power level as OU—that is, to quote the same link, OU... is defined by removing Pokemon from the metagame until the metagame is "not overcentralized" (where the threshold for centralized is kinda arbitrary). In practice, removing all of the fanservice-y cover legends is a good heuristic.—then Palafin's necessity or "goodness" (kinda arbitrary) is irrelevant. The onus remains on those who consider it broken or unhealthy.

If, however, the fundamental focus has changed from tiering Pokemon to balancing tiers, then weaving such a change into an active suspect test has not been entirely well-received. The difference may be subtle, because both purposes are intertwined at the start—that is, the OU tier-to-be is balanced by establishing some baseline power level at which Pokemon will be usable (e.g. by banning fanservice-y cover legends, among a growing list of other things). That initial presumption of a power level may already be compromised, but differences can also be seen later in a tier's development. Balancing the tier at the expense of tiering Pokemon has increased the inclination towards bans, because bans preserve our abstractions of "the tier" (e.g. what is "necessary" for it, what is "good" for it, what effect a (presumably, for the sake of argument) balanced Pokemon will have on it, etc). This creates more Pokemon without a metagame where they are reasonable to use (merely one example), and it is done via orders-of-magnitude more arbitrary decision-making than were we simply tiering Pokemon. The process has been muddied.

As power creeps and the number of unique Pokemon grows, more and more mons which "overcentralize" (kinda arbitrary) one tier are banned to another in which they are no longer reasonable to use. In order for there to be a metagame where they are reasonable to use, we may need to 1) reevaluate the baseline power level of OU and 2) create more tiers. Radical. The alternative (merely one example, and not directed at its poster) is crumbling under its own weight.

Regards

 

[Jiro7]

Walking wake can’t break through everything because it’s either slow and susceptible to being revenged or fast and can’t break through walls palafin can do both all you have to do is pivot once

You can EV for speed boost in Sun, with Specs and Tera Water and 2hko most of the tier.

So pretty similar to Palafin with wave crash except that you take huge recoil in exchange for a bit more damage. And ofc, Wake is way faster

And just like Palafin can predict CC Ogerpon, Wake can Draco aswell.

(Also, Wake usually forces defensive teras more often than Palafin. Usually on mons like Glowking since Azumarill isn't real anymore and Primarina isn't that common. Mons like Dondozo or Mola are more common and don't need to tera - Source, I pretty much spam sun/rain only)