1) palafin does not break stall without a very specific MU fish set that can be played around
2) stall is the worst it's ever been. it is NOT broken. it's barely even good or viable.
stop lying.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 16 - Zero To Hero
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
2) stall is the worst it's ever been. it is NOT broken. it's barely even good or viable.
stop lying.
What.
First of all, Palafin isn't even an anti stall mon. It's a great bulky attacker with a pretty scary bulk up+priority, but it does not break stall for offense teams. It's extremely hazard/status weak and has nothing that can help it beat the physical walls that stall likes to use like Dondozo.
And secondably, stall is just in a really tragic place right now. I'd venture to say its one of the worst archetypes in OU, though that's a pretty bold claim considering stall gods still consistently hit top ladder simply because they're good players. Gholdengo infamously destroys it, as do a number of mons from every archetype like Trick Glowking, Kingambit, and innumerable others running utility like Encore and Taunt that can fuck it over. And now that the tier has decided to just keep throwing demons like Kyurem at stall, it's only gotten worse. We definitely don't need more anti-stall mons.
With that being said, DNB. Palafin is pretty gnarly but nothing the tier can't handle. I doubt it'll see crazy usage after the suspect.
I don't think they were "lying" as much as they just didn't know much about gen 9 stall lol
It has never been easier to fish for Stall/fat matchups, whether it's Knock/U-turn Waterpon with hazards, Psyshock + Dazzling Tera Fairy Gholdengo, or just the classic CM Knock Clefable on Hstack. Stall is the hardest playstyle to play at a high level, and the fact that Palafin is such an easily spammable mon that is good into every single playstyle let alone stall says that this should be an easy ban.
Also, it's not just Palafin that is making life miserable for stall, it's the fact that all the stuff that people use to beat Palafin (Tera Ghost Volcanion[even if this is insane LARP], an even higher usage in Waterpon etc) inherently beats Stall
misinformation and disinformation are not unrelated but fair
either way, they're completely wrong and their opinion should be discarded like my ex wife discarded me. stall sucks.
(and to supaGmoney or whoever being like nOooOoO zOnG sTall gOatEd no bruh ur just good)
also palafin is broken i was larping earlier
more pala = more pon = pon suspect though so WOOOO FREE PALAFIN
merry christmas yall! also this is a fantastic post. palafin is not going to help balance. it's gonna help BO and HO. do yall want that?
I’d argue Palafin is not broken and should be unbanned for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, I'd like to disagree with Alternator - Palafin does indeed have 4MSS. Sure, it can indeed pick and choose a move to beat its checks, but it's hardly unique in doing so. Lure sets like the Tera Blast Fairy set Seraphyde mentioned are lures, which have been around since basically the dawn of Pokemon. But if we ignore lure sets and look into common coverage, we see that Palafin is left wanting in any case.
Let's have a look at Palafin's common offensive checks in this metagame. We've got Zamazenta (which switches in once on CB and can trade with it or mirror Bulk Up sets in boosting with Iron Defense), Dragapult and Dragonite (both of whom naturally resist Palafin and can mess with it), Wellspring (which makes Banded sets far more unwieldy to use as you essentially give it a free chance to set up), Raging Bolt (another natural Water STAB resistance and can threaten back with Thunderclap or Thunderbolt) - hell, even Primarina can do decently into Bulk Up + Taunt sets and trade with Palafin at worst. And mind you, these are all just in the A-tier rankings.
Now for its sets: its BU set is basically shoehorned into either Bulk Up + Jet Punch + Drain Punch and either a third attack or Taunt, meaning that it has to drop coverage to fit Taunt (which was widely considered its best set in DLC1, if I recall correctly). Choice Band sets want all of the following:
Wave Crash / Liquidation (for raw STAB damage)
Jet Punch (self-explanatory)
Flip Turn (good choice to activate Palafin and generally keep momentum)
Close Combat (fairly self-explanatory)
Ice Punch (to hit Dragonite, Dragapult, and the rare Hydrapple)
Zen Headbutt (niche, but hits Pex which walls everything else)
leaving them sitting ducks into something, and lure sets already have to drop a slot to maybe run into the specific thing that is being lured. Choice Band also deals with problems regarding recoil - sure, you might kill that Lando, but you're taking upwards of 40% of your own HP and hazard damage trying to come in again.
I also take some issue with ant's calcs: sure, you may not OHKO the Valiant or Darkrai immediately, but
1. It takes a turn for Valiant or Darkrai to set up, which is a turn that you can use to potentially deal some chip damage with a sacrifice.
2. As mentioned earlier, Palafin on balance structures will be paired with hazards (likely Spikes).
When you take both into account, suddenly Palafin is in range to kill that Valiant or that Darkrai and prevent them from causing chaos. So no, Raine, I don't want Palafin to exclusively help HO, because it won't. Regarding the team synergy points: I've seen and used fairly successful Palafin balance teams that have gotten other people reqs and am trying to get mine as well. Sure, it might not be right for every team, but it fits pretty well on specialized teams that cater to its strengths.
I'll agree that Zero to Hero isn't as big of a drawback as some people make it out to be, but it's also another detriment to how broken Palafin will be. The Choice Band set absolutely despises hazards, and being forced to come in and out once can cost it upwards of 20% in HP if the opponent has layers up. Bulk Up sets don't care, but they are far less immediately threatening.
But what does Palafin add to the metagame? It offers a strong revenge-killing option against HO when paired with hazards on balance teams, while also offering great balance- and fat-breaking capabilities with either Choice Band Wave Crash or Bulk Up + Taunt. It does at least something into a majority of archetypes, while not being uncounterable for any one teamstyle.
Firstly, I'd like to disagree with Alternator - Palafin does indeed have 4MSS. Sure, it can indeed pick and choose a move to beat its checks, but it's hardly unique in doing so. Lure sets like the Tera Blast Fairy set Seraphyde mentioned are lures, which have been around since basically the dawn of Pokemon. But if we ignore lure sets and look into common coverage, we see that Palafin is left wanting in any case.
Let's have a look at Palafin's common offensive checks in this metagame. We've got Zamazenta (which switches in once on CB and can trade with it or mirror Bulk Up sets in boosting with Iron Defense), Dragapult and Dragonite (both of whom naturally resist Palafin and can mess with it), Wellspring (which makes Banded sets far more unwieldy to use as you essentially give it a free chance to set up), Raging Bolt (another natural Water STAB resistance and can threaten back with Thunderclap or Thunderbolt) - hell, even Primarina can do decently into Bulk Up + Taunt sets and trade with Palafin at worst. And mind you, these are all just in the A-tier rankings.
Now for its sets: its BU set is basically shoehorned into either Bulk Up + Jet Punch + Drain Punch and either a third attack or Taunt, meaning that it has to drop coverage to fit Taunt (which was widely considered its best set in DLC1, if I recall correctly). Choice Band sets want all of the following:
Wave Crash / Liquidation (for raw STAB damage)
Jet Punch (self-explanatory)
Flip Turn (good choice to activate Palafin and generally keep momentum)
Close Combat (fairly self-explanatory)
Ice Punch (to hit Dragonite, Dragapult, and the rare Hydrapple)
Zen Headbutt (niche, but hits Pex which walls everything else)
leaving them sitting ducks into something, and lure sets already have to drop a slot to maybe run into the specific thing that is being lured. Choice Band also deals with problems regarding recoil - sure, you might kill that Lando, but you're taking upwards of 40% of your own HP and hazard damage trying to come in again.
I also take some issue with ant's calcs: sure, you may not OHKO the Valiant or Darkrai immediately, but
1. It takes a turn for Valiant or Darkrai to set up, which is a turn that you can use to potentially deal some chip damage with a sacrifice.
2. As mentioned earlier, Palafin on balance structures will be paired with hazards (likely Spikes).
When you take both into account, suddenly Palafin is in range to kill that Valiant or that Darkrai and prevent them from causing chaos. So no, Raine, I don't want Palafin to exclusively help HO, because it won't. Regarding the team synergy points: I've seen and used fairly successful Palafin balance teams that have gotten other people reqs and am trying to get mine as well. Sure, it might not be right for every team, but it fits pretty well on specialized teams that cater to its strengths.
I'll agree that Zero to Hero isn't as big of a drawback as some people make it out to be, but it's also another detriment to how broken Palafin will be. The Choice Band set absolutely despises hazards, and being forced to come in and out once can cost it upwards of 20% in HP if the opponent has layers up. Bulk Up sets don't care, but they are far less immediately threatening.
But what does Palafin add to the metagame? It offers a strong revenge-killing option against HO when paired with hazards on balance teams, while also offering great balance- and fat-breaking capabilities with either Choice Band Wave Crash or Bulk Up + Taunt. It does at least something into a majority of archetypes, while not being uncounterable for any one teamstyle.
Reading this post at 1:18 AM on Christmas
I saw my name and lowkey did the Leonardo dicaprio meme at the screen
Anyways ur wrong imo I think balance will def be hurt more than helped by a new strong breaker with Taunt BU sets that can beat corv, mola, scor, tusk etc.
Also claiming palafin is an anti-HO mon is like claiming gambit is anti-HO. like I mean I guess, but it's also fitting on those HO teams just as easily as fighting them. Palafin is mainly going to be on BO and HO, don't lie
Palafin doesn't fit on HO because it throws away a ton of momentum - unless you get a Flip Turn off a sacrifice (which BU sets are never getting, so they're even bigger momentum sinks), you're going to waste a key turn that could otherwise be used to attack. It also faces direct competition on HO from the likes of Wellspring - Wellspring doesn't have to switch out, it doesn't have to deal with recoil, and it has a better setup move for HO teams.
"Palafin doesn't fit on HO"
>Literally arguably the #1 webs mon rn, up there with Raging Bolt
?????????????
I personally have found it to be a momentum sink that HO can't afford, but more power to you if you can make webs work (I know Duckular made something good, it didn't work for me though).
i've seen it put in massive amounts of work for certain flavors of ho, it just requires people to play different lines than they're used to playing on those structures. instead of "lead webs/screens/veil and go about your business" you generally have to lead palafin and get the normal setter in less safely. it feels awkward and uncomfortable and it's difficult to get used to, especially when palafin is the most prepared-for mon in the meta. ultimately it's a risk, and i don't think it really buffs ho as a playstyle much because palafin also happens to be very strong anti-offense at the same time and it kinda evens itself out, but i definitely wouldn't say ho can't afford it—the reward for playing it properly is very high and it can be a really really scary wincon
of course, i could be entirely batshit wrong. the mon's still new and the role it plays is rapidly changing, so everything that i think makes it solid on those ho structures right now could be ancient history by tomorrow. we should all be keeping this in mind for every argument made in this thread, including our own—we've had this guy around for barely any time at all, as opposed to a normal suspect where the subject has generally been around for long enough to form a judgment. the nature of palafin in ou is not certain or set in stone. question everything, even yourself
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Want to throw in a mention for Sinistcha among the "one rank down" mons, since it's been on a downswing but would DEFINITELY benefit from Palafin and a lot of Palafin hard or soft checks (Mola, Dozo, Ogerpon, some Primarina, Zamazenta) gaining prominence, while things it hates (Gambit, Iron Moth, Kyurem, Moltres) have concerns at the minimum in a Palafin meta. Additionally, its prior role as a Spinblocker that exploits Tusk gets some new value, given Spikes are something Palafin sets definitely have to respect considering Z2H HATES dealing with Hazards, but also want to fight tooth-and-nail to maintain momentum or deal with them going up. And if you want to talk about Move constriction, Palafin can barely touch this thing without Ice Punch (Banded Adamant Wave Crash maxes at 47% while the Bulk Up set just can't touch you, Taunt helps nothing there), a move that helps it against Dragon checks like Bolt, Nite, and Pult, but is pretty redundant against most other checks not covered by its Fighting/Water staples given the move's low BP calling for 2 levels of SE-separation to match them.
Might be worth experimenting with for anyone looking to get Reqs against the Palafin-experimenting ladder, and I'm always down to shill this mon so you know I'm gonna gas it up when it actually gains match-ups instead of just coping.
I’ve sometimes heard people wamting to give Palafin another chance in the tier and I started collecting my one thoughts of this topic. As you already know, it was quickbanned due to its unimaginable strenght with 160 physical attack, however moreover, the DLCs bought Pókemon that could restrain it, or at least make it non-broken like Raging Bolt, Zamazenta and Ogerpon-Wellspring. Although maybe controvesial, I’ll be voting to UNBAN Palafin, and I will also explain my reasons:
➤ "Achilles Heel" Syndrome:
➥ Palafin is an “Achilles Heel” Pókemon, meaning it's a strong Pókemon, however it has ONE major drawback: in this case staring off as a weak Pókemon, then come back as a monster. The problem is that Palafin always begins as a weak Pókemon at the beginning, therefore you have to find an opportunity to fit it into the Field and switch it out (with Flip Turn). The opponent can obviously predict the switch out and hit the upcoming Pókemon for super-effective damage. Moreover the stats of normal Palafin are detrimental, making it mandatory to switch it out as fast as possible and this can lead to problems for the user.
➥ Another one of Palafin's problems, it’s the common problem for almost all Pókemon: the 4-Moveslot Syndrome! Palafin wanted to pack everything up: Taunt, Bulk Up and coverage like Ice Punch, but it can’t. Therefore it has to decide which feature it has to let go. As consequenzes, it has few attcks and makes it wallable to many Pòkemon. The BU set particulary has only Jet Punch and Drain Punch as attacking moves and that can be pretty devastationg for it, because it gets walled by Sinistcha, Dragonite, Primarina, Amoogus and more Pókemon. But if it has Ice Punch over Taunt it gets walled by defensive Pókemon and STILL will be walled by other Pókemon. That's an example of how Palafin is flawed. It can't be groundbreaking, because it'll always be walled, no matter what.
➥ Being a physical attacker, Palafin has the same struggles as other physical Pókemon: Intimidate, burns, defensively bulky Pókemon and Rocky Helmet. All of these factors are VERY common in this and every modern OU tiers: burns are caused by Scald, Flame Body and WOWisps, Rocky Helmet are kept by defensive Pòkemon for example Skarmory, Corviknight and Toxapex and physically defensive Pókemon such as Pecharunt, Zamazenta, Landourus-Therian, Great Tusk and much more. Therefore Palafin hasn't it easy.
➤ Pókemon that can beat/wall/manage it:
➥ With the DLCs and HOME updates, there are some Pókemon that can give Palafin a hard time or can 1V1 it. Let's get into it:
★ We all know Zamazenta and it's famous Iron-Press set, this set is every physical Pókemon's nightmare IF the Pókemon isn't ghost type or can burn it. With this set, Zamazenta can either set a Substitute or Iron Defense right away. That for Palafin, would be a nightmare because it's much faster and can set up an Iron Defense (+3 phy. defense) , making it impossible/difficult for Palafin to kill/damage it.
★ While Gholdengo isn't an extreme answer to Palafin, it can hinder it, specifically with its bulky set. It can survive Jet Punch easily, immune to Drain Punch and Taunt, can paralyse Palafin, Hex it to death and recover itself with no problem. Throat Chop on Palafin is very rare and its natural bulk makes it able to survive and deal with Palafin.
★ With its great bulk, Raging Bolt can survive Drain Punch and hit it back with Thunderbolt/Thunderclap, or even Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse to predict if Palafin terastalizes. Can even survive an unboosted (or even +1 boosted) Ice Punch.
★ It`s clear that Ogerpon-Wellspring can 1V1 Palafin and easily win: it either kills it with Horn Leech or Power Wine. The ONE problem is however the unpredictability of Terastalization. Still she can try to scout the Tera-type, switch out or set the Palafin with Encore to trap it while she sets-up SD.
★ Dragapult, with its impeccable speed and good movepool, can either burn/paralyse it or (not necessary) deal immessive damage with its Choice Specs set having the devastating Draco Meteor or Shadow Ball. The first fact includes if the Palafin isn't Tera-Fire, but it's not that much used if uncommon, I'd say.
★ There's not much to say, Alomomola is a VERY tanky mon that can Scald Palafin, potentionaly burn it OR Palafin can take Rocky Helmet damage from Alomomola. It can heal itself with either regenerator or Wish. Palafin can't really do anything against it.
★ Being the super defensive bulky Pókemon Pecharunt is, it can easily take care of palafin, even poisoning it IF it doesn't terastalize in Steel. While Taunt hinders it, it can also hinder Palafin with both poisoning and confusing it. If not Taunt, it can easily wall Palafin and use Recover.
★ While may don't regard Primarina as a counter to Palafin, I have my own ideas. Primarina can easily resist both STAB Jet Punch and Drain Punch (not STAB), use Psychiy Noise to cripple Palafin's healing (Leftovers or Drain Punch) and use Draining Kiss to heal itself. If it terastalizes into Steel, Primarina can just click Surf (or Psychic Noice if it's Liquid Voice).
☆ Notable Pókemon troublesome for Palafin:
☆ Notable Pókemon that CAN be troublesome for Palafin with Terastalization:
So there you have it! Here are my arguments on why I THINK Palafin could be balanced in the tier! You are free to agree, disagree with my post or even criticize it. If I could get reqs (may the universe help me), I'd vote to UNBAN Palafin, but I have a LOT to do.
Thanks for reading out! Good luck on the reqs!!
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lol, my bad my stall point was just terrible, what I think I meant was more defensive, bulky moms instead of hard stall
This is my second comment, because I made a pretty bad mistake on my first comment. I completely forgot how bad stall is right now in the gen 9 OU meta. Also I was a bit confused on Palafin’s main role, he’s not a stall breaker. So, my bad.
I will still keep my stance to UNBAN and let Palafin in the OU teir.
Palafin’s play style is as a bulky physical attacker.
As I previously mentioned, it is weak to the premier offensive threats in the teir like Raging Bolt and Dragapult. They both outspeed and KO Palafin before it can move (Raging Bolt is slower but remember about thunderclap).
The people who want Palafin back into Ubers say that Palafin running TB Fairy counters this but this isn’t true, they forget to add that the teams that run Raging Bolt and Dragapult have steel-type counters. Mainly, Ghouldengo which many times runs a choice-scarf to outspeed Palafin. If Palafin were to try and KO ghouldengo with a water move, you can simply switch back into Raging.
Along with that it has a bad matchup with Zapdos and a defensively Tera’d Moltres, causing paralysis or burn respectively, ruining Palafin as an offensive threat. Ice punch to deal with grass mons, Fairy TB to deal with dragons, cc just as a good coverage move. And if it wants to run more than one of these moves then it has to drop Wave crash it’s best stab, it’s best priority in Jet punch, or crucial momentum in flip turn.
Palafin’s biggest weakness is the four move slot limitation, as many others might have said: Palafin likely wants to run Flip Turn, Wave Crash and Jet Punch. Leaving it with only one move left. This one move can decide whether or not Palafin could counter any of its plentiful checks.
Other counters are: ALL Tera Water mons, Zamazenta, Rough Skin+Rocky helmet Garchomp, Dragonite, and most importantly Rillaboom. If you want me to go in more detail for these ones, please let me know.
I will still keep my stance to UNBAN and let Palafin in the OU teir.
Palafin’s play style is as a bulky physical attacker.
As I previously mentioned, it is weak to the premier offensive threats in the teir like Raging Bolt and Dragapult. They both outspeed and KO Palafin before it can move (Raging Bolt is slower but remember about thunderclap).
The people who want Palafin back into Ubers say that Palafin running TB Fairy counters this but this isn’t true, they forget to add that the teams that run Raging Bolt and Dragapult have steel-type counters. Mainly, Ghouldengo which many times runs a choice-scarf to outspeed Palafin. If Palafin were to try and KO ghouldengo with a water move, you can simply switch back into Raging.
Along with that it has a bad matchup with Zapdos and a defensively Tera’d Moltres, causing paralysis or burn respectively, ruining Palafin as an offensive threat. Ice punch to deal with grass mons, Fairy TB to deal with dragons, cc just as a good coverage move. And if it wants to run more than one of these moves then it has to drop Wave crash it’s best stab, it’s best priority in Jet punch, or crucial momentum in flip turn.
Palafin’s biggest weakness is the four move slot limitation, as many others might have said: Palafin likely wants to run Flip Turn, Wave Crash and Jet Punch. Leaving it with only one move left. This one move can decide whether or not Palafin could counter any of its plentiful checks.
Other counters are: ALL Tera Water mons, Zamazenta, Rough Skin+Rocky helmet Garchomp, Dragonite, and most importantly Rillaboom. If you want me to go in more detail for these ones, please let me know.
my take on palafin is 1. I don't see why we even want to bring it back and 2. another great mon that is checked by ogerpon-wellspring and kyurem is not something I want in the tier since those are two of my least favorite mons in the tier currently
There's been a divide between public suspect thread and the qualified one in the last gliscor test but I feel like it's especially apparent this time around. The qualified discussion thread is full of ban posters (not just me!) noting the adverse effects that palafin have on the meta, going beyond just "it can be checked on paper for now" and "it can revenge kill stuff" that I have seen from dnb posters here.
I would like to ask dnb posters in this thread to try and focus on if palafin is making the meta better or worse, and less so on its alleged counterplay which savvy sv ou players have already begun to break down. We might think the tier is chock full of answers, but our week-old impression is likely inaccurate with months of meta development ahead of it (look at the difference between gouging fire's first suspect and second). I'd pay close attention in particular to the variety of BU sets in high ladder.
Is Palafin placing too much strain on teambuilding? Is Jet Punch's ability to revenge kill threats something that the tier needs? Is Palafin negatively affecting the diversity and health of the meta? Is it necessary to unban palafin?
I also encourage directly quoting posts from the qualified discussion thread to engage with them. GL to all still attempting reqs!
I would like to ask dnb posters in this thread to try and focus on if palafin is making the meta better or worse, and less so on its alleged counterplay which savvy sv ou players have already begun to break down. We might think the tier is chock full of answers, but our week-old impression is likely inaccurate with months of meta development ahead of it (look at the difference between gouging fire's first suspect and second). I'd pay close attention in particular to the variety of BU sets in high ladder.
Is Palafin placing too much strain on teambuilding? Is Jet Punch's ability to revenge kill threats something that the tier needs? Is Palafin negatively affecting the diversity and health of the meta? Is it necessary to unban palafin?
I also encourage directly quoting posts from the qualified discussion thread to engage with them. GL to all still attempting reqs!
I tend to stay away from suspect test posts, but I wanted to say a few things.
However, I agree with:
Finally, while people love to discuss the Bulk Up set, I believe Choice Band Wave Crash and CB Jet Punch are highly spammable, especially with Tera Water. It feels like if you eliminate the opponent's very specific counter, you can simply win by selecting Tera Water Jet Punch. This will be a very interesting suspect test, particularly with the lower 50% unban threshold.
TLDR: I feel that the community is overlooking the current centralization that Palafin is causing in team building.
I disagree with the notion that a Pokémon should only be unbanned from Ubers if the tier needs it. I believe OU should maintain a minimal ban list while maximizing competitiveness and minimizing overcentralization (compared to Ubers). I don't think the status quo for a banning suspect test should differ from one for unbanning a Pokémon.
However, I agree with:
As someone who is tipically very anti-ban, I feel that Palafin is receiving an excessive amount of praise without considering the significant attention it currently receives in team building to keep it in check. Yes, Palafin has counters, and currently, the ladder is full of them. But I believe that in the long run, cracks will begin to appear as people remember that they have other threats to prepare for. I foresee Palafin becoming a problematic force in the long term, similar to Baxcalibur (pre-DLC), Darkrai (post-sleep ban), and Gouging Fire.
Finally, while people love to discuss the Bulk Up set, I believe Choice Band Wave Crash and CB Jet Punch are highly spammable, especially with Tera Water. It feels like if you eliminate the opponent's very specific counter, you can simply win by selecting Tera Water Jet Punch. This will be a very interesting suspect test, particularly with the lower 50% unban threshold.
TLDR: I feel that the community is overlooking the current centralization that Palafin is causing in team building.
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Palashitters don't seem to understand that this is the actual advent of what all of the Kyurem fearmongerers were talking about during the suspect. BU, CB, 4A, and their respective Tera types all lose to very different things and are highly customizable with coverage options with holes that can be easily covered by the rest of the team. We are already starting to see bullshit like Eject Pack Acrobatics and the dreaded Encore, things that Kyurem could only dream of having. Add to this the myriad of Tera types that it can viably run and support from the cancer killing Gen 9 OU that we call Alomomola and you have something that is going to ruin the tier. I will conclude by quoting this post which I think gives a good summary around the bigger picture of why this mon is problematic. I implore you all to vote Ban.
I want to clearly and plainly state the following: I do believe that trying to sway votes/discuss mons based on the nebulous, largely radical concept of 'future' is a futile effort that can be crumbled to the winds, I do think in the case of Palafin we can largely ascribe a loose direction based on the flow of how things are progressing to make some educated guesses that I am personally worried about, I think gives credit to its 'stay ban' vote, and I hope will at least give another assertion of the following perspectives by two posters I feel illustrate my concerns and/or thoughts well:
For example, rising Kyu usage stifles Grass Types while also functioning as a great team mate with and sometimes against Palafin itself. With more Ice Types rising up to function as answers against Grass Types (See: Hydrapple is a great Palafin wall! Not so great Kyu or already random ice coverage wall.) it only makes Ground Teams weaker due to aforementioned Grass and Ice types flooding the meta in an attempt to deny the dolphin/counters to said dolphin. Sure, its new toy syndrome to a degree. But as Palafin gets increasingly 'figured out' and fit into more and more optimized team comps, I feel as though those teams will heavily centralize themselves around keeping Palafin safe and looking to answer many of its counters so it can come in safely or sweep late in the game after its counters are softened up/weakened.
I've experienced this myself in a lot of games, with me looking to weaken many of Palafins answers and/or force Tera's on them. Raging Bolt is itself a *perfect* Palafin buddy. Answering not only Grass, Water, and Flying types, but allowing it to punch holes thru teams so Palafin can come in much more securely. More often than not I've found Palafin to feel like a side grade to Gambit at times. Its priority, bulk, and raw power combined make it nightmarish to deal with if a lot of your team was weakened throughout the game.
W.Pon, another highly contentious mon I have negative feelings for, does function great as a answer to Choice variants of Palafin; but I've literally just opted for pressing Close Combat and keeping hazards set to chip it through the game. If a Ogerpons in the game, you can only bring it in so many times/on one CC before its no longer a safe answer. Tusk feels substantially worse in most games as well, largely due to said number of Grass/Water/Ice types all rising up to answer Palafin. This is before factoring in Sini which is utterly impossible for Tusk to get around. Even Ghold has to Tera or switch out after a Knock > EQ combo.
If not readily clear, I do not think Palafin itself is 'broken' in the traditional sense; It is absurdly strong and unhealthy in one go. Forming a Meta around itself due to said raw power, creating an increasingly hostile meta to anything that isn't an answer to it or many of the new types coming in to try and counter it. This is before the fact Palafin's existence, much like Gambit, forces you to *have* to have counters ready. Dealing with one has to make you prepare for the other; Oh, what's that? You need more physical walls for Zama too? I hope you have proper answers for Bolt as well, as its going to be either paired with Palafin or against it. So on, and so forth.
This is not only what I've been observing in my games, but what I've been seeing in a lot of team building. Everything feels tighter again, as one answer isn't the same for another threat. Previously, having Zama and Tusk was 'usually' enough to deal with Gambit + 1. But with Tusk being more crucial than ever for hazard removal, while also being deeply afraid of the many new types going around, and Zama needing to stay healthy while also avoiding heavy chip, makes Palafin feel like its only going to make the current problems worse even if it does solve some.
Make no mistake, Palafin feels great to use. I've won quite a lot with it, in different set ups! But as good as it feels, it doesn't fix the problems I have with SV OU overall, and feels like it makes some worse. Its no Bloodmoon, but I feel like its only a matter of type before people with far more time than me at the moment optimize the hell out of this thing and make teams with it that feel ghoulish to play against. The Holidays leave me with negative time to get Reqs (having a family is hard!) but I implore anyone looking to snag them to consider the ramifications of how the Meta is shaping around this thing as it stands. With how many physical threats in the meta exist, do we really need another that just demolishes Iron Moth the most? (this is a joke, but a funny one as fuck Moth)
(To and all that might reply, I'll respond as I see them and have time. But I look forward to any and all responses if you feel differently!)
I feel like its especially important to state the most obvious part: All of Palafin counters are themselves especially weak to the many rising mons that are coming up to answer Palafin itself. Raging Bolt for one, is an absolute nightmare for most teams to contend with and it answers not only Palafin extremely well, but many of the listed mons in Storm Zone's post. This not only pushes down a lot of the flying types that would function as Palafin stopgaps, but further suffocates team building and only hastens the arms race that is answering the top threats in SV OU.
For example, rising Kyu usage stifles Grass Types while also functioning as a great team mate with and sometimes against Palafin itself. With more Ice Types rising up to function as answers against Grass Types (See: Hydrapple is a great Palafin wall! Not so great Kyu or already random ice coverage wall.) it only makes Ground Teams weaker due to aforementioned Grass and Ice types flooding the meta in an attempt to deny the dolphin/counters to said dolphin. Sure, its new toy syndrome to a degree. But as Palafin gets increasingly 'figured out' and fit into more and more optimized team comps, I feel as though those teams will heavily centralize themselves around keeping Palafin safe and looking to answer many of its counters so it can come in safely or sweep late in the game after its counters are softened up/weakened.
I've experienced this myself in a lot of games, with me looking to weaken many of Palafins answers and/or force Tera's on them. Raging Bolt is itself a *perfect* Palafin buddy. Answering not only Grass, Water, and Flying types, but allowing it to punch holes thru teams so Palafin can come in much more securely. More often than not I've found Palafin to feel like a side grade to Gambit at times. Its priority, bulk, and raw power combined make it nightmarish to deal with if a lot of your team was weakened throughout the game.
W.Pon, another highly contentious mon I have negative feelings for, does function great as a answer to Choice variants of Palafin; but I've literally just opted for pressing Close Combat and keeping hazards set to chip it through the game. If a Ogerpons in the game, you can only bring it in so many times/on one CC before its no longer a safe answer. Tusk feels substantially worse in most games as well, largely due to said number of Grass/Water/Ice types all rising up to answer Palafin. This is before factoring in Sini which is utterly impossible for Tusk to get around. Even Ghold has to Tera or switch out after a Knock > EQ combo.
If not readily clear, I do not think Palafin itself is 'broken' in the traditional sense; It is absurdly strong and unhealthy in one go. Forming a Meta around itself due to said raw power, creating an increasingly hostile meta to anything that isn't an answer to it or many of the new types coming in to try and counter it. This is before the fact Palafin's existence, much like Gambit, forces you to *have* to have counters ready. Dealing with one has to make you prepare for the other; Oh, what's that? You need more physical walls for Zama too? I hope you have proper answers for Bolt as well, as its going to be either paired with Palafin or against it. So on, and so forth.
This is not only what I've been observing in my games, but what I've been seeing in a lot of team building. Everything feels tighter again, as one answer isn't the same for another threat. Previously, having Zama and Tusk was 'usually' enough to deal with Gambit + 1. But with Tusk being more crucial than ever for hazard removal, while also being deeply afraid of the many new types going around, and Zama needing to stay healthy while also avoiding heavy chip, makes Palafin feel like its only going to make the current problems worse even if it does solve some.
Make no mistake, Palafin feels great to use. I've won quite a lot with it, in different set ups! But as good as it feels, it doesn't fix the problems I have with SV OU overall, and feels like it makes some worse. Its no Bloodmoon, but I feel like its only a matter of type before people with far more time than me at the moment optimize the hell out of this thing and make teams with it that feel ghoulish to play against. The Holidays leave me with negative time to get Reqs (having a family is hard!) but I implore anyone looking to snag them to consider the ramifications of how the Meta is shaping around this thing as it stands. With how many physical threats in the meta exist, do we really need another that just demolishes Iron Moth the most? (this is a joke, but a funny one as fuck Moth)
(To and all that might reply, I'll respond as I see them and have time. But I look forward to any and all responses if you feel differently!)
Gen 9 has been the first competitive generation in which I took laddering seriously. I often find myself unable to pick out all the problems that others seem to have with the generation; I'd like to understand what these problems are, if anyone would be so kind, to more clearly assess whether or not Palafin solves anything.
I feel like the main thing that I see people annoyed with is threat saturation and unbanned pokemon (Ghold, Kingambit, Kyurem, Ogerpon) and I don't understand how Palafin would make this particular problem go away. It gives some team structures a robust way to deal with a lot of sweepers and/or a strong win condition depending on its set, but I don't think Palafin will centralize the metagame or make anything less constraining in teambuilder. Its addition is a new threat to the tier and the things it's supposed to be checking aren't beaten rigidly enough for us to consistently benefit from the upside of introducing Palafin.
I feel like the main thing that I see people annoyed with is threat saturation and unbanned pokemon (Ghold, Kingambit, Kyurem, Ogerpon) and I don't understand how Palafin would make this particular problem go away. It gives some team structures a robust way to deal with a lot of sweepers and/or a strong win condition depending on its set, but I don't think Palafin will centralize the metagame or make anything less constraining in teambuilder. Its addition is a new threat to the tier and the things it's supposed to be checking aren't beaten rigidly enough for us to consistently benefit from the upside of introducing Palafin.
Flip Turn is not mandatory on Palafin aside from on Choice Band sets. Palafin really appreciates having coverage 'cause Water STAB by itself is not enough to make it a top threat, which is part of the reason why the Bulk Up sets are the best ones although Choice Band in rain has to be respected.
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Personally, I find the sets with Flip Turn (and Wave Crash) much easier to use than the Bulk Up sets. Bulk Up sets need 2+ turns to get online (which is annoying for a sweeper), will often take multiple rounds of hazards damage (which can make setting up tricky), and and can be a bit lacking with the initial damage output compared to the pivot sets. Most of the Flip Turn / Wave Crash sets have much better initial damage output, more utility since they can easily escape bad match-ups (and deal a notable amount of chip in the process), and I feel like get punished less for clicking the "safe" move which can either be Wave Crash or Flip Turn. Palafin's Flip Turns are dealing an insane amount of damage because of its high attack which really helps in wearing down its checks like Dragapult / Sinistcha, and is much easier IMO than relying on weak, unreliable coverage moves like Ice Punch, which thuds into other checks like Tera Water Gliscor.
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