np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 16 - Zero To Hero

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to retest Palafin!

Let's start with some relevant information:

• As part of Smogon's 12 Days of Likeshop - 2024 hosted by UT (who deserves huge recognition for putting in hours of thankless work to make this possible), I agreed to allow for an OU suspect to be triggered if we hit 500k likes contributed to the cause
• After a little drama and a LOT of likes being contributed, Palafin surpassed 500k likes as of earlier today, which was made official here -- that triggered this retest of Palafin in SV OU
• For those unfamiliar with OU retests of Ubers and Policy Review history, the threshold for a retested Pokemon to drop to OU officially is a standard majority per here
• Some changes that were implemented from last suspect test are still in place for this retest -- you can consult this post outlining the new voting reqs, qualified discussion thread, and suspect verification system (follow-up post on that system here as well)

Like it or not, Palafin is jetting back into OU for a retest! Reactions aside, the Christmas dolphin will get another opportunity to punch through SV OU after getting quickbanned all the way back in 2022. Flipping back the calendar 25 months, Palafin (and Iron Bundle) was (were) banned from SV OU via council vote with Palafin going unanimously. With another turn to linger in OU, suspect participants will be able to determine if Palafin's usage will return to zero in a few weeks or if it will be the hero of our flagship metagame! So be sure not to crash out anytime soon as we have our most wavy suspect of the generation, a Palafin retest!

Palafin is a unique case as the base form is a liability and mandates maneuvering around, but Zero to Hero turns Palafin into a juggernaut. Mono-Water is a historically superb defensive typing and it plays well with Tera compliments; this allowed for a Taunt + Bulk Up Palafin with a defensive Tera type to ravage the infant SV OU metagame. Jet Punch provided priority to circumvent revenge killing attempts, Drain Punch provided coverage and healing, and Taunt was able to thwart opposing attempts to status it while Bulk Up made the most of free turns. On the flip side, there are offensive variants of Palafin which can be strong, but limited, when used. While the aforementioned Bulk Up variant thrived off of Palafin's great natural bulk, let's not forget it has 160 base Attack and 100 base Speed, granting the dolphin some breaking potential. The offensive sets were not what broke Palafin initially, but times change and applications of any Pokemon will vary as the generation transpires.

Speaking of times changing, there is a lot of hope within the community that Palafin will not be as problematic. If this means it is still broken or not will be up to the jury -- the voters -- to judge of course, but there are many more potential checks and counters to Palafin in the metagame. Since the initial ban of Palafin, SV OU has added Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta-Hero, Sinistcha, Rillaboom, Walking Wake, Serperior, Alomomola, and other Pokemon that may match-up favorably with Palafin. However, one of Palafin's best traits is using the appropriate and timely defensive Tera type to circumvent certain offensive counterplay, which could feasibly lead to it defeating various offensive Pokemon listed above if the circumstances line-up properly. There is a lot of give-and-take to that dynamic, which will make metagame response (and Palafin's potential counter-response, etc.) one of the most interesting components of this retest!

In terms of defensive counterplay, the metagame will be able to withstand even the most potent possibilities from Palafin like Choice Band Wave Crash simply due to the abundance of resists and immunities to a single STAB Pokemon that takes a lot of recoil alongside the negative possibilities of locking into coverage in offensive game states. However, the combination of this with the finnesse variants of Palafin like Bulk Up and potential new applications of Palafin will be at the forefront of discussions throughout this retest. It is easy for an Ogerpon-Wellspring to catch a single Jet Punch or Wave Crash, an Alomomola to sponge any single attack with ease and pivot out, or offensive resists like Raging Bolt, Dragonite, or Kyurem to hold their position once or twice over while forcing their own progress, but Palafin brings so much more nuance than linear attackers due to its bulk, set-up prospects with defensive Tera options, and priority Jet Punch, which can let it circumvent typical revenge killing mechanisms.

With everything considered, Palafin's retest is likely to be one of the most exciting suspects of the generation and I hope we get a lot of participation both in the vote and threads. It was undoubtebly broken when initially freed during SV OU's release in 2022, but it has been over two years and so many new Pokemon, which can potentially serve as counterplay, are now prominent in the metagame! Palafin has immediate drawbacks due to a lackluster base form, but goes from Zero to Hero literally and figuratively with much increased bulk and power upon reentering battle. While it does not necessarily thrive as a STAB mashing breaker always, this is still an option and Bulk Up serves it incredibly well alongside Jet Punch. Can the metagame withstand these options and adapt to potential new applications or will Palafin be too much once more? We will have to find out with this retest!

Good luck to everyone participating in the suspect test. I hope you all have happy holidays! Regardless of where you stand on Palafin, SV OU, or anything else, we are all rooting for each other within this community

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played OU before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Finchinator and/or Ruft
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Finchinator or Ruft!

The requirement to vote in this suspect retest is a ELO of 1750 and GXE of 80! This was done after discussion in this thread. The deadline for getting requirements will be Friday, January 3rd at 11 PM GMT-5. Good luck to all!

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Palafin is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Palafin vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

VIEW VOTER REQS HERE

 

[Finchinator]

The suspect test is now live. Palafin is now usable on the ladder thanks to quick work from dhelmise!

This will remain locked for 24 hours for everyone to collect their thoughts. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Srn]

Unlocking thread

Because this is a unban from ubers test rather than a ban to ubers, there's a few things that will make this suspect different from usual that I want to highlight. This is me speaking personally, not as OU forum mod.

1) This was covered in the OP but I will scream it again:
PALAFIN ONLY NEEDS 50%+1 TO BE UNBANNED, NOT 60%
feels kinda fucked up after all the 50%<x<60% ban votes we've had but that's the policy rn and it ain't gonna change for this one.

2) Straight from the tiering policy framework:

• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

Idc if you think palafin is fun or balanced. Tiering policy is asking you to tell us why palafin is NECESSARY to SV OU. Finally, the onus is on the DNB crowd must make good arguments >:)

3) If you're going to include any damage calcs of palafin, please be sure to calc with Palafin-Hero, not just base form Palafin. It makes quite a difference:
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 338-402 (77.8 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 596-704 (137.3 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Idt I'll be getting reqs too quickly so I wanted to get all this out there early. GL to all who are going for it. Please be nice when posting!

 

[RainebowValiant]

ban palafin.

Metagame Post in thread 'SV OU Metagame Discussion v4'

Dec 21, 2024

Bringing back Serperior of all mons is a pretty clear sign that this is not going to work.

I'm getting rather funny flashbacks to when everyone was clamoring how Darkrai was undeniably mid and would drop down to RU lol

I feel like people are heavily prepared for Palafin at the moment, but if you're fitting on like 2 to 3 fucking Palafin answers that opens up your team massively to literally every other heavy team building threat that still sits in the meta. Gambit for example LOVES when something else takes the heat for it, or Raging Bolt, etc. I feel like this is going to...

• Rekka's Backend

• 
• 
• 

this is a fantastic post on the matter.

yeah, palafin might not be broken when everybody preps for it, but will it be broken when everyone realizes you also have to watch out for the 500 other building checks in the tier? i think it will be

in addition, palafin's BU set's "checks" take a ridiculous amount from CB. sure, gouging wasn't singularly broken because of its CB sun set, but that definitely helped. palafin is similar in that regard.

TLDR, palafin is arguably not broken right now but when the meta actually develops and people realize they often need to build teams that only have one palafin check, i think it will be.

 

[darkmoonbeam]

I made this post in the main thread but a lot of the mons 'prepping' for it are also just good mons in general, this isnt a dracovish vs seismitoad situation.

Is it strong? Sure, but so is everything in the top 20, it's just the way OU is these days. I'm not too sure which way i'd swing the vote myself yet but so far it's no fluttermane, that's for sure.

I'm just not so sure why there's this outrage of people saying whytf are we retesting x or y, people said the same thing about darkrai back in the day and he turned out mostly fine (ignoring the sleep stuff but that's seperate)

Sometimes you just have to look at things in practice instead of on paper.

Hope everyone has a good christmas!

 

[mintwinter]

I believe that unbanning palafin would be a step in the wrong direction for the tier, which absolutely does not need any more offensive mons. Yes, the band set can be beaten handily by physically defensive alo and pex, but it’s still an additional threat in the builder, which the tier is better off without. However, i believe that the bulk up set is the biggest issue. With taunt+bulk up, palafin is able to destroy pex, dondozo w/o lefties, force alo to fish for scald burns before it sets up too much, and with tera, beat many of the tier’s physical checks like skarm, corv and zama. With tera in the picture, bolt, wellspring, special pult also become rather shaky switchins.

+1 8 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero: 172-204 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero: 129-153 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 8 Atk Tera Fairy Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 93-110 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO

(wisp pult also hates facing tera fire)

I’ve seen people in the ou room bring up sinis as a check to bu palafin, and while it can beat jet+drain punch sets, it’s not switching into ice punch from band sets, meaning you need at least 2 pokemon just to be ok into it, severely limiting the diversity of defensive cores

I feel that adding palafin would make the tier even more hostile to balance teams. It doesn’t bring anything new and beneficial to the tier anyway; there are mons which can fill the roles palafin does w/o being so challenging to answer. Need a revenge killer? Just use lokix. Want a setup sweeper? This tier is certainly not starved for those…

Not sure if i’ll be getting reqs for this, but if i do i would vote ban and urge everyone else to do the same

 

[Achohermano]

As I'm writing this post, I'm using my not really big free time to get the reqs for this Pokémon. Palafin in my opinion is just another giant stat tank, with a lot of versality and options that makes teambuilding even harder. This Pokémon is on the same level as Gouging Fire or TB Volc, and it's honestly an step backwards. An even bigger one than keeping Kyurem unbanned.

Kyurem-less meta, with no Volc, no Gouging Fire, and of course without Palafin, was clearly the healthiest this tier has been ever. Everyone was having good a impression with the meta, and a Gliscor ban on that moment could have been the beginning of a golden era for SV OU. We should try to get the tier to that goal.

Ban Palafin. Ban Kyurem. Keep Volc and GFire banned.

 

[Eeveeto]

Its Sunday, the weather outside is bad (though I have already been there regardless), so why not do a long post speaking about many things?

First, my own SV OU Suspects history:

1: Tera Suspect. Voted full Ban, the end result was a No Act. After that I came to like the mechanic, since it ended up being the identity of the generation and allows some very cool Strategies with Mons that otherwise couldn,t be used.
2: Chien Pao. Voted Ban, end result was Ban.
3: Walking Wake. Didn,t participate, would have voted Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. If the Suspect happens (very unlikely) again, I will still vote Ban, though this Mon is not as broken as some other OU threats.
4: Zamazenta Hero. Voted Do Not Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. This was the best decision of the generation, Zamazenta makes this Metagame playable by being an offensive threat that holds back many other offensive threats, Kingambit being the most relevant one. At the same time, balanced and defensive teams (aka the non dominant styles) have a lot of counterplay to the dog.
5: Kingambit. Voted Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. Would vote Ban again in the unlikely scenario a second Suspect happens, but during the whole generation this Mon managed to be "not the most broken threat that populates OU".
6: Ursaluna Bloodmon. Voted Ban, end result was Ban. 0 surpises in this one.
7: Roaring Moon. Didn,t participate, would have voted Ban, which was the result. If the Suspect happens again, will vote Ban too, though like Gambit its not the priority for me. Without Knock Off, this would have been a completely fine Mon, just a single move broke it, as it always does. Still, several Mons are even more broken, though I think this shouldn,t have been retested in DLC2.
8: Gliscor. Didn,t participate, would have voted Ban, which was the result. Another Mon that shouldn,t have been retested, we were better without it.
9: Kyurem. Voted Do Not Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. At the time, with Rain being so dominant (but not broken) and the Sub Protect set being uncommon, this looked to be the right thing to do. I was surprised by the result, however.
10: Archaludon. Voted Do Not Ban, end result was Ban. This is the opposite of the Zamazenta Suspect, the worst outcome of a Suspect in the generation. Outside of Rain, it was 0% broken, but even in Rain enough counterplay (with OU Mons, not the niche stuff I usually use) was enough.
11: Gouging Fire. Voted Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. Well, at least later we fixed this mistake.
12: Volcarona. Voted Ban, end result was Ban. Good, hopefully Tera Blast stays and if it gets Banned, Volcarona should be given the same treatment Palafin got, a Suspect (Regieleki of course should be immediately unbanned).
13: Gouging Fire. Voted Ban, end result was Ban. Sun still can shine without it.
14: Kyurem. Voted Ban, end result was Do Not Ban (by 1 vote). The tragedy of this Suspect is that it influenced the outcome of the next one. My decision (currently, it may change) regarding my vote in the next Kyurem Suspect (if it happens) depends on what happens with Palafin: with it in the Tier, I will vote Do Not Ban, without Palafin I will support a Kyurem Ban. Currently, there are 3 Mons (4 with Gholdengo, but that one is a lost cause) that for me deserve the Ban more than Kyurem does: Waterpon, Gliscor and Raging Bolt.
15: Gliscor. Voted Ban, end result was Do Not Ban. I believe that if Kyurem was banned, this would have been too. I was surprised by how close this Suspect was with Kyurem in the Tier, expected Do Not Ban to be over 65%.

So, out of 15 Suspects, I agree with the outcome of 9 of them (counting the Tera one, in which I changed opinion after the voting), which is not a bad statistic. Archaludon, Gambit and second Gliscor Suspect are the most notable ones in which I was "wrong".

Now, for Palafin Suspect, I remembered my beloved Archaludon and built this:

https://pokepast.es/cd78f56bab63a61f

I have learned the lesson of not using something like this in team tournaments after losing 3 times in Wcop with the archetype, so in the event I am drafted in SPL (questionable) and play SV OU (also not a sure thing), Corviknight is an unlikely member on my teams.
However, for ladder this structure still works very well. The philosophy behind the 5 Pokemon core (Corvi, Tusk, Weavile, bulky Sdef Poison and bulky Pdef Water) is: "I can beat any match-up as long as I don,t have hazards on my side and have real items" (Boots is not a real item).
So, Corvi and Tusk are key in the mission of preventing hazards from being up. Corvi will prevent them vs 90% of Gholdless teams, Tusk fights Ghold and does a lot of damage, while knocking items. Sometimes (mainly in team tournament battles when more than 1 person collectively prepare vs what I like to use) they are not enough and evil Gholdengo and its goons manage to flood my field with hazards. But most of the time, these 2 Mons do their job and I can maneuver without worrying about Rocks and Spikes. Due to Webs being a common archetype currently, Tusk has to use Boots in order to reliably outspeed non-Scarf Gholdengo.

Weavile is a fast revenge killer that also breaks stuff and knocks. Dondozo existing makes SD Weavile pretty bad, so Band is the way to go. Instead of finding time to use SD, Weavile just clicks and something will lose a lot of health and probably an item too. On this team, Weavile could have Tera Grass + Tera Blast to have a better match-up not only vs Palafin, but also vs Waterpon, Hisuian Samurott, Rillaboom, Raging Bolt, Primarina, Dondozo and Alomomola. I prefered to go the simple way of using Tera Dark + Assurance, which with hazards, obliterates Alomomola too.

Clodsire removes Toxic Spikes and deals with Wake and Bolt, among others. Usually it also puts Rocks, but on this team I have another Rocker, so it can use Spikes instead.

Alomomola is the bulky Water that heals the team. It also checks several common Palafin sets and burns it with Scald. Unlike many of my balances, this one would be very weak to Zamazenta (or even Skarmory), but Alomomola solves it with Tera Ghost. Of course, Alomomola is a complete viability vs the most broken OU Mon, that being Waterpon, who with Palafin in the Tier becomes better and more common. But we have an answer to that...

Duraludon is the Waterpon counter (unless it decides to use Superpower). Why Duraludon and not Hisuian Goodra, who takes Special hits better while having Knock Off (broken move)? Well, Duraludon has several advantages over Goodra: Its physically a little bulkier WITHOUT Eviolite and much bulkier with it. It hits a little harder on the Special side (this doesn,t matter) and a little weaker with physical moves not named Body Press (this also doesn,t matter). Its faster than Adamant Kingambit, meaning that it either kills it with Body Press or forces Tera. Lastly, I saw several Low Kick Waterpons on the ladder. That move would destroy Hisuian Goodra (120 BP) but it bounces of Duraludon due to Light Metal (40 BP). Duraludon sets rocks and uses Dragon Tail to accumulate hazards chip. In late game it will stop Tera Normal Dragonite and Gliscor. Flash Cannon or Dragon STAB are options to hit Tusk on the switch-in (which they rarely do, since they fear precisely those moves), I prefered Thunderbolt to hit Corviknight (which I ended up seeing exactly 0 in 43 battles) and Palafin among others.

Vs Palafin this team works very well (its kinda overprepared vs its common sets), I have lost 0 battles to it. However, the moment Palafin starts using uncommon sets (Sub instead of Taunt, Covert Cloak, Tera Blast Water, Tera Normal Boomburst), the team will crumble to it. Other than Palafin, the team more or less covers the whole OU Meta, although Gholdengo + Hazards is always a challenge, just like it would be vs any team.

The team went 38-5 on the ladder, which is quite decent and much better than the 46-11 I got on Gliscor Suspect. Loses were:
1. Vs an Expert Belt 4 Attacks Tera Fairy Azelf, counterplay vs that is predicting and I didn,t expect strong opposition on low (1350) ladder.
2. Vs a hazard Stack of Air Balloon Gholdengo + Webs + Spikes + Rocks Spiky Shield Mortal Spin Tera Flying Glimmora, which outplayed me.
3. Vs another Hazard Stack with Tera Water Max Defense Gholdengo, it took 57% from Tera Ground Headlong Rush. Fuck that Mon.
4. Vs a crazy offense with Blaziken, Booster (Speed) CM Crown and DD Pult. I commited the mistake of leading Weavile vs Blaziken and went on backfoot since then. Respectable team to lose against.
5. Vs a very cool balanced team with AV Psychic Noise + Psyshock Glowking, Alomomola, Clodsire, Trick Sticky Clef, Mandibuzz (Defog) and Band Ogerpon. I let Clodsire getting tricked very early and stayed with Weavile vs obvious Tera Ogerpon. I later fought the same guy again and knocked the Barb with Tusk early game, which ended up being the winning strategy. Very cool team with a similar structure mine has, not mad for losing to that.

Last battle of the Suspect (the only one whose Replay I saved) to show how the team works: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2267618559-trsrzvls8t9w29wfoaol3rz33qg7jzrpw

Now, before talking about Palafin itself, I will talk about how (in my opinion) it interacts vs the current Viability Ranking. Who gets better with Palafin in the meta and who gets worse? Will try to be as objective as possible:

S Rank

Kingambit < Gets worse. Palafin is faster than Kingambit, has Fight move and bypasses Sucker Punch. Neither Kingambit, nor Palafin can reliably switch into each other, but the dolphin has the upper hand. If there is one positive impact the Do Not Ban side can present for their case, is this one.

Zamazenta-Hero < Gets better. Unreliable check and can,t always switch into Palafin, but comfortably beats common sets one on one.

S- Rank

Gholdengo < Low impact. Palafin switches into Gholdengo better than Gholdengo switches into Palafin, but neither really can,t. However, Palafin becomes one of the many partners in crime of Gholdengo's hazard abussers.

Great Tusk < Gets worse. I mean, its weak to the STAB. Palafin can,t switch well into Tusk, but Tusk has it even worse vs Palafin.

A Rank

A+ Rank

Darkrai < Gets a little worse. Palafin can revenge kill a weakened Darkrai, though it still can,t switch into it, fearing Wow or just a strong Dark Pulse. Darkrai itself can,t switch into Palafin (but this isn,t really different to any other offensive threat).

Dragapult < Gets better. Resists Water, immune to Fight, faster, has Wow or Thunderbolt. If Palafin wants, it can OHKO Pult with Ice Punch or Specs Ice Beam however.

Dragonite < Gets a little better. Neither can switch into each other, but Nite resists Water and Fight. Boosted Nite isn,t stopped by Palafin unless it uses the Tera. Before the boost, Palafin can stop Nite with Taunt or Ice Punch, however.

Gliscor < Gets a little worse. Offensive Waters are not something that Gliscor likes, but Palafin can,t reliably switch into it due to the threat of Toxic. Vs SD sets Palafin fares better, but Gliscor can outlast it.

Iron Moth < Gets worse. Weak to Jet Punch, Palafin can try to switch into the Fire STAB, but can get caught by Energy Ball and Tera Grass. Even without Tera, Moth damages very hard Palafin on the switch if it doesn,t use the Fire STAB.

Iron Valiant < Gets worse. Palafin can revenge kill a weakened Valiant, though it can,t switch in. Tera Water Valiant is very rare, but could make a comeback to abuse the dolphin.

Kyurem < Gets a little better. Palafin itself is a negative match-up for Kyurem, due to being slower. Palafin can,t switch into Kyurem, but Kyurem isn,t a reliable check either, due to CC or +1 Drain Punch. Palafin also fares decently vs the DD Kyurem. However, since Waterpon and Raging Bolt should become more common with Palafin, overall Kyurem is a winner.

Landorus-Therian < Gets worse. Weak to the STAB, Palafin is faster and can use BU vs it or just murder. Palafin can,t switch into Lando, but Lando is even worse at handling it.

Ogerpon-Wellspring < Gets better. Unreliable check due to being beaten by Band CC or Acrobatics, but at least forces Palafin to predict and can Encore, if it runs it. I consider this Mon to be the most broken OU one (after Gholdengo, who doesn,t count due to being impossible to Suspect), so this is a very negative impact.

Raging Bolt < Gets better. Swithes in and beats many Palafin's sets, though can get hit by Ice moves. Unreliable check, just like almost all of them, but a check nonetheless. Since this Mon is another one in my broken list, this is not good.

Samurott-Hisui < Gets better. Palafin on turn 1 doesn,t do much damage, and Samurott is a common lead who can abuse that to put the Spikes. Later in the match they will rarely face each other, but early game Samurott discourages Palafin leading.

Ting-Lu < Gets worse. Palafin can switch-in at least once into Ting-Lu and start dealing damage.

A Rank

Cinderace < Gets worse. Weak to Palafin's STAB, though the dolphin once again can,t switch into it.

Garganacl < Low impact. Tera Water is Garganacl's most common Tera anyway and this is a Mon that most of the time will Tera. Garganacl therefore can check some Palafin sets after it Teras. However, Tera Water Garganacl doesn,t apreciate Raging Bolt and Waterpon being more common. Even worse, if Palafin decides to use Covert Cloak or Substitute, instead of check, it becomes set-up fodder.

Moltres < Low impact. Weak to Palafin's STAB but has Flame Body. Like Garg, doesn,t like Waterpon and Bolt rising.

Roaring Moon < Gets a little worse. Palafin can revenge kill a weakened Moon... provided it has used Tera, which is not always the case. Neither Mon can switch into each other.

Slowking-Galar < Gets a little worse. Neither Mon can switch into each other. Doesn,t like teams becoming more offensive, however, and forced to Tera vs Band Fin.

A- Rank

Alomomola < Gets better. Comfortable switches into some Palafin sets and burns them with Scald. However, can be abused by Sub, Specs, Throat Spray and Covert Cloak. Palafin gets a lot of tech to work around Alomomola if it wants.

Deoxys-Speed < Gets worse. Jet Punch victim, but Palafin can,t switch into it either.

Glimmora < Low impact. HO Mon that will put some hazards regardless of Palafin's existance.

Iron Crown < Gets worse. Palafin is faster and can hit it with Wave Crash. Neither Mon can switch into each other, but Palafin can risk taking a Specs Tachyon Cutter.

Iron Treads < Gets worse. Despite Palafin not liking Knock, it can switch into Treads.

Lokix < Gets better. Of course, can,t switch into Palafin and can,t even OHKO it from full, but can revenge kill a weakened one since First Impression bypasses Jet Punch and Tinted Lens bypasses any defensive Tera.

Pecharunt < Gets a little better. Can soft check BU sets with Malignant Chain and Parting Shot. Will be destroyed by Band or Special sets, but switches into Palafin way better than Palafin switches into it.

Primarina < Gets worse. The match-up vs Palafin itself isn,t that bad, though it has a big chance to lose, it at least gets to damage Palafin hard. However, doesn,t like Electric and Grass Mons (Waterpon and Raging Bolt mainly) being more common.

Tinkaton < Gets better. Steals Palafin's item. Can disrupt set-up with Encore or Thunder Wave, unless Palafin has Taunt.

Weavile < Gets worse. Frail offensive Mon that can be killed with Jet Punch. Palafin can risk and switch into the Ice STAB, can take a Knock from Boots versions (more common than Band).

Zapdos < Gets better. Common Tera Water or Tera Grass Mon, but even without Tera can beat Palafin one on one. Unreliable switch-in, but physical sets can get crippled by Static.

B Rank

B+ Rank

Clefable < Low impact. Can,t really stop Palafin, but Palafin doesn,t want to switch into all the trick Clef has.

Corviknight < Gets worse. Palafin has Taunt and breaks Corv with Band too, Corv doesn,t like Rain, Sun and Raging Bolt being more common either.

Dondozo < Gets a little better. Can scout Palafin's set and even hit hard with Tera Fight Body Press. Doesn,t like Taunt, doesn,t like Band Rain Tera Water, doesn,t like Special sets either, but still works as a check.

Enamorus < Gets worse. Jet Punch victim. Palafin can,t switch-inm but easily Revenge Kills, since Enamorus is really frail.

Hatterene < Gets a little better. Can stop Taunt + BU Fin with Nuzzle so that teammates stop it easier. Can,t really switch into Band or other offensive sets, but apreciates weather being more common.

Hydrapple < Gets better. Long term Palafin answer that also somewhat checks Waterpon. Of course, its not a reliable check due to Ice Punch from Palafin or Play Rough from Waterpon.

Latios < Gets a little better. Resists Water + Fight combination, outspeeds Palafin and has Recover. Isn,t reliable vs Ice Punch and doesn,t like having to go Timid (Modest gets some KOs that Timid doesn,t). Still, a check.

Ninetales < Gets a little better. Can,t switch-in into Palafin, but Sun nerfs it. However, if Palafin comes with Rain, things change.

Ninetales-Alola < Gets better. Unlike Kanto Ninetales, Alolan one gets the defense boosted by Snow and Pelipper can,t switch into it. It can also support BU Palafin with Aurora Veil. HO being better is not a good thing.

Ogerpon < Gets better. One of the many Grasses that benefit, though can,t reliably switch-in.

Rillaboom < Gets better. Another one, this one is slower but has Grassy Glide. Still not a reliable switch-in even before Tera.

Scizor < Gets worse. Palafin can,t switch into Scizor (Knock, STAB U-Turn, CC or Trailblaze all do a lot of damage), but Scizor has it even worse vs Palafin. Bullet Punch is resisted, so one on one, Palafin could boost on Scizor.

Sinistcha < Gets better. Immune to Fight, resists Water, can burn with Matcha Gotcha, so only Tera Fire or Covert Cloak + Taunt Palafin can safely boost. Can be beaten with Ice moves.

Ursaluna < Gets worse. Palafin outspeeds and has effective moves. Even TR Ursaluna is not safe from Jet Punch unless it Teras.

Walking Wake < Gets better. Can,t switch into coverage moves, but can switch into Water moves and with Specs DM beats some of BU sets. Not a reliable check, but still a check, especially in Sun.

Weezing-Galar < Low impact. Burns or Sludge Bomb poisons Palafin, but can,t switch into Band or Special sets. Palafin obviously never switches into Weezing either.


So, Palafin joins the very large list of Mons that have all of: high Stats, good typing and good movepool. Therefore, it has 0 Mons that can counter or check all of its sets and this is without taking into account the Tera options. This is not new, we have many of those and had them since many generations, meta can adapt to Palafin just like it could adapt to Kyogre if it came to OU some day. In fact, I don,t think Palafin is the most broken OU Mons currently legal, its less broken than Waterpon and probably Gliscor too (but definetely above Raging Bolt and Kyurem).

What the meta can,t adapt to is having to handle Palafin AND Waterpon AND Gholdengo AND Gliscor AND Bolt AND Kyurem AND 23232325642 hard to check threats, especially if they all come supported by Hazards. Its almost impossible to build a team able to check all of these kind of Mons, the term "check" is becoming obsolte due to (almost) all of them having endless movepools and often coming together. Unless you build a Hazards centered HO and don,t care about defensively checking almost anything, just put the Rocks + Spikes, boost and hit hard, of course.

Currently, we have a Meta of games in which you often have to predict correctly every single turn. For example, you see a Palafin and have a Waterpon in your team. If you switch into a Water move, the opponent will most likely have to predict next turn to avoid losing something. However, if you switch Waterpon in and Palafin happens to be Band CC or Acrobatics or Specs Tera Normal Boomburst, you lost your check and next time Palafin comes in, it will likely destroy you or at least will do a lot of damage. This works not only with Palafin but with any combination of 2 big offensive threats that soft check each other.

Palafin exhacerbates an already big problem of meta being too offensive. Its one more of Big offensive threats hard to cover. It makes some styles (Rain, Sun, Aurora Veil, even Psychic Terrain as counterplay) better, but those are all offensive styles. No single Palafin set will break all of OU, but together with other similar threats, they do make the Tier less enjoyable. Look at the above chart of the VR, many of the Mons that get better with Palafin's presence are already controversial without it in the Tier (Waterpon, Raging Bolt, Kyurem even Zamazenta, who for some people is problematic, though not for me). Palafin actually reliably checks very few HO Mons and most of them have to be weakened for Jet Punch to remove them. Vs Balanced teams however, Palafin is very good and makes an already declining style worse, while also making the meta top-heavy. Balance doesn,t have to be the best style for a Meta to be good, but in my opinion it has to have high viability and allow lesser used Mons to have a niche.

I think Palafin could have a place in this Tier, but only if instead of it we remove several Mons/Moves like Waterpon, Raging Bolt, hazards or Booster Energy (theorymoning here, not asking for Booster Energy to be banneed). In the current meta, I don,t think Palafin's presence is a positive one despite not being the most broken thing. It won,t destroy the Tier by itself but it solves no current Tier issue, while making already broken Mons even better (without being reliable vs it either). For these reasons, I will be voting Ban. This is my last post in this thread, you can agree with my way or thinking or not, but I won,t be answering. For those who like me, want Palafin banned, you have a decent team above to use. Have a nice Eeveening!

 

[SomeoneIDK3401]

Tbh it's weird that Palafin was ever allowed in OU to me - it feels like it's on every other team and that just proves how broken it is. It might just be a skill issue but I can never beat a Palafin unless I get rid of it before it turns into hero form or status it and stall. People consistently need to build every single team with everything being an answer to Palafin bc of how strong it is, and if that's the only way people can beat it then we shouldn't leave it in OU. A swell as it being broken in a vacuum bc of its stats, it gets Ice Punch to delete every grass type you try and use. Personally, I use Grassy Glide Rillaboom, but that always 2HKOS and it gets OHKOed by Ice Punch 25% of the time from full health, but usually it's not healthy when I send it in to answer Palafin. Like I said, it's probably just a skill issue on my end but it makes me think it really isn't if pretty much everyone has the same problems with Palafin. Tbh it would probably be a pain for Ubers players too bc it's just that OP. Ban it and suddenly OU will be healthier and friendlier to players - atm it's use Palafin or get swept by it and ppl with morals don't use it then get swept by ppl with no morals. Especially newer players (including me) will be able to start playing much easier - leave it in Ubers and if you want to use it then go play Ubers or AG.

 

[Firer4]

• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

Idc if you think palafin is fun or balanced. Tiering policy is asking you to tell us why palafin is NECESSARY to SV OU.

That is a tough bar to clear. It is argued that a 50+1 majority is sufficient to undo a council ban, as this represents the mon’s first fair trial so to speak, but then the DNB side needs to argue that it's inclusion in OU is necessary? Of course its not necessary to unban it. Would it not be more appropriate to evaluate whether the original decision to ban it remains justifiable today?

If this is the wrong place to discuss this, I apologize and ask you to point me in th right direction.

I'll probably post my thoughts on Palafin itself at a later point, once Ive tried more sets. At the moment Im under the impression that CB is its best sets and that has similiar wallbreaking capabilities as Wellspring while matching up better into offense due to Jet Punch. Hazards and recoil cutting into this longevity is quite noticeable and makes its defensive profile almost nonexistance. While it could in theory switch into a bunch of stuff and live, losing half your hp on the switchin strongly cuts into your lifespan.
Eiher way the fact that you always 2hko max hp max def Sinisticha with a Tera Water Wave Crash is something that will require close inspection before dismissing.

 

[Pais]

I've finished the suspect and I won't go into much detail as I find the ways in which the suspect has been made questionable and I will try to give a competitive analysis without prejudice of any kind. Here below the six I've built from scratch that I've used during the suspect.

What makes Palafin unique, and arguably broken, is its unmatched versatility. Despite lacking extensive type coverage (that is still enough to beat its common checks), it can fill a variety of roles by taking advantage of its exceptional stats. I’m unsure if I used Palafin in early SV, as I wasn’t actively playing SV OU when the tier launched. However yesterday, when I noticed this Pokémon in the builder, I asked myself: what’s the most reliable way to maximize Palafin's potential without relying exclusively on Heavy Offense structures? In a chaotic metagame, I wanted to avoid gameplay centered on constant 50/50 predictions or simply spamming STAB moves.

While the community gravitated toward Bulk Up sets or Choice Band variants, I came up with this alternative:

Palafin-Hero (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Jet Punch
- Close Combat
- Flip Turn
- Encore

Palafin’s offensive potential is sometimes limited because it requires a switch-out or Flip Turn before breaking through teams. To mitigate this, I paired it with Pokémon like Moltres (using U-turn) or Ting-Lu, which help reposition and maintain momentum. I was particularly excited about this set because it combines Palafin’s ability to generate momentum and threaten opponents while completely shutting down bulky offense teams that rely heavily on setup mons as you have Encore.

I didn't really click a lot Tera Fight on Palafin but it was extremely useful when I needed to quickly close out games. With this Tera type, Palafin transitions from a classic support/momentum generator into an active wallbreaker, leveraging its insane Attack stat.

Experimenting with balanced builds was enlightening. I wanted to determine whether the metagame was entirely skewed toward Heavy Offense, and while building non-offensive teams is feasible, it comes with significant limitations. Throughout my run, I frequently encountered rain teams, which felt incredibly oppressive. For example, a core like Palafin + Tornadus-T in rain can dismantle many teams, evoking memories of the Dracovish-dominated SS OU meta. Palafin-Hero serves as a natural buff to offensive archetypes and presents an immense challenge to adapt to without exposing teams to other significant threats and archetypes.

Palafin-Hero excels as both a wallbreaker and a versatile support Pokémon. Its varied movesets allow it to dismantle many archetypes while circumventing its common checks. Moreover, it enables already-centralizing Pokémon like Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-Water, and Zamazenta, amplifying their effectiveness. Even Pokémon negatively affected by Palafin’s presence can adapt through appropriate Tera types or niche movesets. This duality makes Palafin both the strongest weapon for offensive teams and a counter to opposing offenses, contributing to a chaotic, matchup-based metagame.

To draw a comparison, this situation isn’t too different from the metagame during the reign of Gouging Fire. SV OU already suffers from threat centralization, and freeing Palafin would exacerbate the problem, further destabilizing an inherently unbalanced tier.

The period of stability following the Gliscor suspect was refreshing, providing room for new threats to rise in usage while others declined. Freeing Palafin would essentially reset the metagame, introducing significant upheaval. From my perspective, this would create a completely different meta, undoing the progress made so far.

For these reasons, I will vote BAN, and I encourage you to do the same or at least play this meta thoroughly to form an informed opinion. I don't know if I'll post again in this thread but my private messages will stay open for whoever wants to debate on Palafin.

In conclusion, I think a better solution would be waiting for how the meta evolves without necessary unbanning other threats that can make the tier so much less skill based.

Post Scriptum: Don’t be fooled by the perception that Palafin seems sometimes more manageable in practice; this is only because players are heavily over-preparing for it. However, this over-preparation leaves teams vulnerable to other Pokémon, which can easily exploit these gaps and wreak havoc. Also not every team with Palafin right now is optimized or necessary this good to be identified as a threat.

 

[fish anemometer]

2) Straight from the tiering policy framework:

• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.

Idc if you think palafin is fun or balanced. Tiering policy is asking you to tell us why palafin is NECESSARY to SV OU. Finally, the onus is on the DNB crowd must make good arguments >:)

So even if Palafin gets >50% dnb votes, it would still only get unbanned if the dnb side convinces the ban/neutral side of its necessity with "good arguments"? Why even have a suspect test ladder up and standard majority voting in the first place LOL? This policy framework seems to refer to something the council should've figured out themselves beforehand. It just comes off contradictory when framed like this.

Anyway got reqs with a team where water resists were 0/0/0 defenses samu and 0/0/0- defenses dragapult (apparently in theory if you dont have bolt/wogerpon/pex/mola you insta lose). Faced rain palafin, cb, boots pivot, variations of bulk up sets even some w acro (tera fairy or steel seemed deadliest to me but still manageable) and none convinced me it was broken in practice. The Achilles heel is really the need to lead and lose momentum with it, or not lead and risk some awkward positioning later on. CB sets can be exploited as any other mon locking in is, and it also dies quite fast with hazards and recoil. Another weakness especially of the bulk up sets is EV distribution, it feels to me like you want all or a lot of the speed, while still investing in hp and spdef in order to really be hard to revenge, but if you do that you cut off from your attack and drain punch starts doing 0 damage. Why is it necessary is an odd question you can tackle from multiple angles: A) it's just not broken so its wrongly in ubers. B) strong priority pivot (boots set) is awesome, good for teambuilding and strong anti cheese. C) it helps check "threatening pokemon X". Idk what "X" is, but the reqs are 1750 now which is apparently a noob filter and i got thru it fast so you can trust me that my vote is valid and informed and no amount of calling my arguments bad will take away from the vote's weight!

Will be voting dnb. I think unless you're a SPL player fearful of tiering turbulence or with sauce team ideas saved up, voting ban rn is a bit early and unjustified...

 

[Quackborg]

So even if Palafin gets >50% dnb votes, it would still only get unbanned if the dnb side convinces the ban/neutral side of its necessity with "good arguments"? Why even have a suspect test ladder up and standard majority voting in the first place LOL? This policy framework seems to refer to something the council should've figured out themselves beforehand. It just comes off contradictory when framed like this.

i mean i dont think its a specific thing like if you get the amount of votes but dont convince people it wont go through, just clarification that the burden of proof is on a different side that usual

 

[JackRG]

Say it with me kids. A Pokémon having decent checks doesn't mean its not BROKEN. This is without considering the fact that even its "checks" are incredibly shaky, and in rain they are just victims anyways. Pon gets deleted by CC and you need an immunity to switch into band in rain (dondozo gets 2hko'd). Sure wave crash does recoil but liquidation is also a good option that 3hko's dozo (2hko's if you catch it on the switch with flip turn once) Also the bulk up sets (especially the specially defensive ones) become near impossible to kill after a few turns with the countless viable tera types that will only surely grow with time. This gen doesn't another mon that takes half the teambuilder to check all its different sets. Lets be smarter, folks. (will make a more in-depth post when I finish my reqs run, but yeah this is obviously broken)

 

[Lily]

Palafin is flat out not broken. It doesn't really take much to see it - the mon just doesn't do the crazy shit it can do on paper because there are a lot of factors holding it back.

First, let's talk about brute strength, where Palafin excels most. Palafin's raw power is impressive but not so impressive to be particularly crazy or unheard of - it is normal to see 160 Attack and go "oh fuck oh god help me" but let's take a moment to compare it to some Pokemon that hit similar - or even higher! - damage numbers.

Its most direct competition is Ogerpon-W, which it is nearly identical in strength to:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other mons that aren't banned and hit similarly crazy (or crazier) damage feats:
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

Now of course if it was as simple as "mon does no damage unban gg" then Palafin wouldn't be in Ubers to begin with, and it is still evidently hitting really hard. And to be able to do all of this without an item is very impressive; Palafin can slap on a Choice Band and put most of these to shame same for the latter three being able to keep up (and some other mons that see less use like Hoopa-U or whatever). But this power comes at a major price - Palafin cannot afford to spam Wave Crash all day long. Its HP is good but not so good that it can just click the button all day long, and if one does choose to do this then Palafin ends up being Staraptor 2; yes it'll kill something, and in the process it'll kill itself, and considering its defensive utility is limited to "it lives 1 from basically anything" it's pretty clear that that's not enough.

Yes it can do some silly shit in rain. So can basically anything with Wave Crash, lol; I spent the start of this gen tearing the ladder up with Floatzel, which was much scarier in rain than Palafin because despite the lower power level it has 600 billion Speed and that matters a lot more than the diminishing returns you get with the dolphin. But yeah it can 2HKO Dondozo which is funny on paper and useless in practice.

---

So what about setup sets? The Bulk Up + Taunt variant is what got it banned early on, after all. And it's easy to see why when you consider how hectic the early gen was; everyone was still figuring out Tera, we hadn't yet figured out that stuff like Toxapex was in fact hit too hard by the nerf hammer to be any good, and the overall power level was still quite low so putting heavy damage into Palafin was not an easy task. Most of the natural counterplay back then was very passive and easily stuffed by Tera Steel or Poison (Toxapex, Amoonguss, etc). That isn't the case anymore.

There are, simply put, actual answers now. Dragapult can hard into Bulk Up Palafin with complete ease and win the 1v1 against anything but Tera Fire; it can still pretty comfortably neutralise that too, given how much its attacks do since Palafin is in that awkward bulky-but-not-that-bulky range. Alomomola can safely Flip Turn into anything you'd like to threaten it with like Ogerpon-W, Meowscarada, Latios or whatever else. Ogerpon-W itself is a massive deterrent to almost everything Palafin wants to do, especially Encore variants but it doesn't even need that. Sinistcha is the hardest counter one could ask for. And then there's stuff it's just not bulky enough for, like Raging Bolt, Primarina, Zapdos, and Keldeo all popping up.

Bulk Up + Acrobatics is a fair bit scarier; it turns some of these matchups on their head, especially Primarina and Sinistcha, but it also completely flounders against common counterplay in Raging Bolt and Zapdos and dropping Taunt leaves you with pretty significant issues against stuff like Dondozo, Skeledirge, and can be easily out-traded by stuff like Tera Ting-Lu and Moltres. It also gets wrecked by just about anything running Iron Defense now and obviously hates the fact that it doesn't have an item, which on top of the detrimental ability makes it a stat blob and nothing else.

An important part of all of these Bulk Up sets is that they are not immediately threatening. Unless it can fit Wave Crash (or perhaps Tera Fight CC) it just isn't doing damage off the rip; Palafin is already a mon that gives the opponent free turns to do whatever they want, a death knell in SV, and this is something that is important to not overlook.

---

I'm not going to go through every permutation here because you can name a counter for any of them and that's not really an impressive thing to do. The point is that all of these are actual common Pokemon that beat just about everything - you do not have to go out of your way to beat Palafin, you can simply use common mons that already give it major trouble and beat it naturally.

The fearmongering here reminds me of Manaphy.


Does anyone remember when this thing dropped to OU in the DLC? It found its way onto multiple surveys and even a couple QB slates. And yet it's languishing in RUBL, only recently finding even the slightest niche in UU. By all accounts it's extremely similar to Palafin; same Speed tier, better bulk, much more dangerous boosting move, and a much better movepool that similarly lets it pick its checks and counters. It's also not beholden to any specific Tera type in the way physical attackers often are; it doesn't hugely care if it gets burnt for instance so no need for Tera Fire, nor is Tera Electric necessary to deal with Static Zapdos, that kinda thing.

The reason is simple: Manaphy is not threatening unboosted, it doesn't get instant KOs even after a boost, it isn't defensively sound enough to wall anything, and it's slow. These traits are all shared with Palafin. And yet, people saw that it could throw out massive attacks after a single turn spent boosting and voted to quickban it despite it having no actual results and, with a little time to let it simmer, no significant niche in the tier.

Now don't get me wrong - Manaphy is not bad. In fact, similar to Palafin, Manaphy is a menace on webs. The point is that kneejerk reactions are often wrong. This also applies to Palafin.

---

Addressing the point of "needing" to free Palafin;

OU's existence is, at its core, founded on the idea of having every Pokemon that isn't too much to handle legal. Ubers existed for a long time solely as OU's banlist for this exact reason; if something isn't broken/uncompetitive/etc in OU then it should be OU legal.

With that said, I do believe in having *some* reason to change the status quo; even if it's not traditionally broken I would not advocate for freeing Espathra, for instance. So in short - Palafin is a rare example of a Pokemon that helps to deal with SV's explosive offensive playstyles without easily enabling them itself. It is difficult to fit Palafin onto HO because of its lacking initial power & detrimental momentum-sucking ability, but it gives balances another option for priority against things that can get out of hand and are hard to deal with our current priority due to their typing like Iron Valiant and Kingambit. It does this while being reasonable for these offense teams to account for - they're already commonly running the likes of Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, Dragonite, Primarina, and Zamazenta - but not being so easily handled that it's an afterthought. I think knocking these teams, which have been dominant and somewhat brainless throughout SV's history, a little further down the totem pole would be a good thing.

---

I think this is enough word vomit for now, so I'll address the rest of my thoughts in a later post if any. For now, here are some teams with Palafin that I alternated throughout the suspect; I actually gave up on using it towards the end of my run because it just felt like an active detriment, and as soon as I started using non-Palafin webs I just won every game lol.





Best of luck with laddering! I hope folks here take the time to mess with Palafin and come to the same conclusion I've found myself at; this Pokemon is nothing outstanding and the value it provides to the tier is visible and appreciated. Of course I'll continue playing over the next couple weeks in case any crazy tech is discovered but for now I feel pretty confident in voting to unban Palafin.

 

[JackRG]

Its most direct competition is Ogerpon-W, which it is nearly identical in strength to:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other mons that aren't banned and hit similarly crazy (or crazier) damage feats:
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think it is important to mention multiple Pokémon listed in these calcs are very controversial in their own right (especially Ogerpon-W); overall I think your analysis listed some great arguments for the dnb side however

 

[Seraphyde]

Palafin supporters don't really seem to take into account that Hero form just straight up doesn’t have any weaknesses stat-wise. It's fairly fast, fairly bulky both specially and physically, and has a great typing. It’s a Pokemon that is nearly impossible to exploit without your opponent fucking up somehow. And unlike Cuckfable or other mons that leverage unexceptional stats, Paladin DOES have strengths. Its passable defenses, speed and typing work obscenely well with it’s unmatched raw power.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Palafin is flat out not broken. It doesn't really take much to see it - the mon just doesn't do the crazy shit it can do on paper because there are a lot of factors holding it back.

First, let's talk about brute strength, where Palafin excels most. Palafin's raw power is impressive but not so impressive to be particularly crazy or unheard of - it is normal to see 160 Attack and go "oh fuck oh god help me" but let's take a moment to compare it to some Pokemon that hit similar - or even higher! - damage numbers.

Its most direct competition is Ogerpon-W, which it is nearly identical in strength to:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other mons that aren't banned and hit similarly crazy (or crazier) damage feats:
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

Now of course if it was as simple as "mon does no damage unban gg" then Palafin wouldn't be in Ubers to begin with, and it is still evidently hitting really hard. And to be able to do all of this without an item is very impressive; Palafin can slap on a Choice Band and put most of these to shame same for the latter three being able to keep up (and some other mons that see less use like Hoopa-U or whatever). But this power comes at a major price - Palafin cannot afford to spam Wave Crash all day long. Its HP is good but not so good that it can just click the button all day long, and if one does choose to do this then Palafin ends up being Staraptor 2; yes it'll kill something, and in the process it'll kill itself, and considering its defensive utility is limited to "it lives 1 from basically anything" it's pretty clear that that's not enough.

Yes it can do some silly shit in rain. So can basically anything with Wave Crash, lol; I spent the start of this gen tearing the ladder up with Floatzel, which was much scarier in rain than Palafin because despite the lower power level it has 600 billion Speed and that matters a lot more than the diminishing returns you get with the dolphin. But yeah it can 2HKO Dondozo which is funny on paper and useless in practice.

---

So what about setup sets? The Bulk Up + Taunt variant is what got it banned early on, after all. And it's easy to see why when you consider how hectic the early gen was; everyone was still figuring out Tera, we hadn't yet figured out that stuff like Toxapex was in fact hit too hard by the nerf hammer to be any good, and the overall power level was still quite low so putting heavy damage into Palafin was not an easy task. Most of the natural counterplay back then was very passive and easily stuffed by Tera Steel or Poison (Toxapex, Amoonguss, etc). That isn't the case anymore.

There are, simply put, actual answers now. Dragapult can hard into Bulk Up Palafin with complete ease and win the 1v1 against anything but Tera Fire; it can still pretty comfortably neutralise that too, given how much its attacks do since Palafin is in that awkward bulky-but-not-that-bulky range. Alomomola can safely Flip Turn into anything you'd like to threaten it with like Ogerpon-W, Meowscarada, Latios or whatever else. Ogerpon-W itself is a massive deterrent to almost everything Palafin wants to do, especially Encore variants but it doesn't even need that. Sinistcha is the hardest counter one could ask for. And then there's stuff it's just not bulky enough for, like Raging Bolt, Primarina, Zapdos, and Keldeo all popping up.

Bulk Up + Acrobatics is a fair bit scarier; it turns some of these matchups on their head, especially Primarina and Sinistcha, but it also completely flounders against common counterplay in Raging Bolt and Zapdos and dropping Taunt leaves you with pretty significant issues against stuff like Dondozo, Skeledirge, and can be easily out-traded by stuff like Tera Ting-Lu and Moltres. It also gets wrecked by just about anything running Iron Defense now and obviously hates the fact that it doesn't have an item, which on top of the detrimental ability makes it a stat blob and nothing else.

An important part of all of these Bulk Up sets is that they are not immediately threatening. Unless it can fit Wave Crash (or perhaps Tera Fight CC) it just isn't doing damage off the rip; Palafin is already a mon that gives the opponent free turns to do whatever they want, a death knell in SV, and this is something that is important to not overlook.

---

I'm not going to go through every permutation here because you can name a counter for any of them and that's not really an impressive thing to do. The point is that all of these are actual common Pokemon that beat just about everything - you do not have to go out of your way to beat Palafin, you can simply use common mons that already give it major trouble and beat it naturally.

The fearmongering here reminds me of Manaphy.


Does anyone remember when this thing dropped to OU in the DLC? It found its way onto multiple surveys and even a couple QB slates. And yet it's languishing in RUBL, only recently finding even the slightest niche in UU. By all accounts it's extremely similar to Palafin; same Speed tier, better bulk, much more dangerous boosting move, and a much better movepool that similarly lets it pick its checks and counters. It's also not beholden to any specific Tera type in the way physical attackers often are; it doesn't hugely care if it gets burnt for instance so no need for Tera Fire, nor is Tera Electric necessary to deal with Static Zapdos, that kinda thing.

The reason is simple: Manaphy is not threatening unboosted, it doesn't get instant KOs even after a boost, it isn't defensively sound enough to wall anything, and it's slow. These traits are all shared with Palafin. And yet, people saw that it could throw out massive attacks after a single turn spent boosting and voted to quickban it despite it having no actual results and, with a little time to let it simmer, no significant niche in the tier.

Now don't get me wrong - Manaphy is not bad. In fact, similar to Palafin, Manaphy is a menace on webs. The point is that kneejerk reactions are often wrong. This also applies to Palafin.

---

Addressing the point of "needing" to free Palafin;

OU's existence is, at its core, founded on the idea of having every Pokemon that isn't too much to handle legal. Ubers existed for a long time solely as OU's banlist for this exact reason; if something isn't broken/uncompetitive/etc in OU then it should be OU legal.

With that said, I do believe in having *some* reason to change the status quo; even if it's not traditionally broken I would not advocate for freeing Espathra, for instance. So in short - Palafin is a rare example of a Pokemon that helps to deal with SV's explosive offensive playstyles without easily enabling them itself. It is difficult to fit Palafin onto HO because of its lacking initial power & detrimental momentum-sucking ability, but it gives balances another option for priority against things that can get out of hand and are hard to deal with our current priority due to their typing like Iron Valiant and Kingambit. It does this while being reasonable for these offense teams to account for - they're already commonly running the likes of Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, Dragonite, Primarina, and Zamazenta - but not being so easily handled that it's an afterthought. I think knocking these teams, which have been dominant and somewhat brainless throughout SV's history, a little further down the totem pole would be a good thing.

---

I think this is enough word vomit for now, so I'll address the rest of my thoughts in a later post if any. For now, here are some teams with Palafin that I alternated throughout the suspect; I actually gave up on using it towards the end of my run because it just felt like an active detriment, and as soon as I started using non-Palafin webs I just won every game lol.

View attachment 697532
View attachment 697533
View attachment 697534

Best of luck with laddering! I hope folks here take the time to mess with Palafin and come to the same conclusion I've found myself at; this Pokemon is nothing outstanding and the value it provides to the tier is visible and appreciated. Of course I'll continue playing over the next couple weeks in case any crazy tech is discovered but for now I feel pretty confident in voting to unban Palafin.

i have to echo jack's sentiment here. a lot of your arguments are solid but the comparison of those calcs with palafin's should probably have a bit of context behind them:

• a lot of those other mons are kinda fudging the calcs with some sort of stupid boost or other. waterpon has the mask, the paradoxes have proto active, gambit has supreme overlord, rilla has grassy terrain. palafin doesn't get any of that support and it's hitting that hard anyway
• i haven't seen many non-banded palafins running wave crash. most of the ones i'm seeing that don't have band are running bulk up with jet punch as their only water stab, so i'm not sure how common that calc even is. even if it is more relevant than i think, that isn't the calc that everyone is afraid of
• out of the listed mons, gholdengo, kingambit, and waterpon are also considered by many to be a problem; walking wake was considered problematic enough to be suspected in the past and there were plenty of complaints about it long after the suspect and even some through dlc1; roaring moon was actually banned at one point and is still a fairly controversial mon (although not as controversial as it should be, i really think we should be looking at this guy harder); raging bolt has also been a hair's breadth away from a suspect several times. so to a lot of people, this reads less as "palafin hits less hard than these balanced things" and more "palafin has a damage output comparable to a bunch of mons that are also broken". i don't personally think every one of those things should be looked at, but i personally think ghold, gambit, waterpon and roaring moon are also banworthy, so this isn't really convincing me that palafin is fine, it's doing the opposite
• we should also note that make it rain and draco meteor aren't spammable, so those single-turn calcs aren't exactly as threatening as they appear compared to the others that can inflict that amount of damage multiple times in a row

outside of this, you do make some compelling points about wave crash's self-inflicted damage, band's general need to overcommit, and bulk up's lack of immediate breaking power, although i do think the utility and power it brings are more than enough to offset that. i still have to disagree with your conclusion, though

and for the record, i still think dlc1 manaphy was broken, don't @ me

 

[Lily]

i have to echo jack's sentiment here. a lot of your arguments are solid but the comparison of those calcs with palafin's should probably have a bit of context behind them:

• a lot of those other mons are kinda fudging the calcs with some sort of stupid boost or other. waterpon has the mask, the paradoxes have proto active, gambit has supreme overlord, rilla has grassy terrain. palafin doesn't get any of that support and it's hitting that hard anyway
• i haven't seen many non-banded palafins running wave crash. most of the ones i'm seeing that don't have band are running bulk up with jet punch as their only water stab, so i'm not sure how common that calc even is. even if it is more relevant than i think, that isn't the calc that everyone is afraid of
• out of the listed mons, gholdengo, kingambit, and waterpon are also considered by many to be a problem; walking wake was considered problematic enough to be suspected in the past and there were plenty of complaints about it long after the suspect and even some through dlc1; roaring moon was actually banned at one point and is still a fairly controversial mon (although not as controversial as it should be, i really think we should be looking at this guy harder); raging bolt has also been a hair's breadth away from a suspect several times. so to a lot of people, this reads less as "palafin hits less hard than these balanced things" and more "palafin has a damage output comparable to a bunch of mons that are also broken". i don't personally think every one of those things should be looked at, but i personally think ghold, gambit, waterpon and roaring moon are also banworthy, so this isn't really convincing me that palafin is fine, it's doing the opposite
• we should also note that make it rain and draco meteor aren't spammable, so those single-turn calcs aren't exactly as threatening as they appear compared to the others that can inflict that amount of damage multiple times in a row

outside of this, you do make some compelling points about wave crash's self-inflicted damage, band's general need to overcommit, and bulk up's lack of immediate breaking power, although i do think the utility and power it brings are more than enough to offset that. i still have to disagree with your conclusion, though

and for the record, i still think dlc1 manaphy was broken, don't @ me

the problem with these:

- yes they're using their abilities to get the calcs (i intentionally left out boosting items). the point is to show that stats aren't everything lol. abilities matter a lot! it's important to note that palafin's ability is really bad and these other pokemon use their really good abilities to inflate their stats. the difference between some 670 bst monster and a 590 bst monster that also has an invisible +70 boost to special attack is small.
- im not sure what to even say to this but jet punch being half the power means it is not immediately threatening and that is abusable in its own ways
- none of these mons are being considered for a test right now, which is why they are listed. i could list a bunch of bad mons that hit similar damage calcs but theres no point in telling you palafin isnt as strong as rampardos, ursaluna, or staraptor. i listed the mons i did to show that we play against monsters that hit as hard as palafin every day already.
- wave crash is also not spammable. even clicking it against a "free" target like lando-t means you're taking 60% in recoil. almost every high power move has a drawback.

you're ofc entitled to feel whatever you want is broken so i'm not gonna respond to those, but there is no desire among council or significant desire among the playerbase to address them right now so they will be remaining in the tier for quite a while yet if not forever, and as such they should be compared to the retest target

 

[RainebowValiant]

ban palafin.

Metagame Post in thread 'SV OU Metagame Discussion v4'

Dec 21, 2024

Bringing back Serperior of all mons is a pretty clear sign that this is not going to work.

I'm getting rather funny flashbacks to when everyone was clamoring how Darkrai was undeniably mid and would drop down to RU lol

I feel like people are heavily prepared for Palafin at the moment, but if you're fitting on like 2 to 3 fucking Palafin answers that opens up your team massively to literally every other heavy team building threat that still sits in the meta. Gambit for example LOVES when something else takes the heat for it, or Raging Bolt, etc. I feel like this is going to...

• Rekka's Backend

• 
• 
• 

this is a fantastic post on the matter.

yeah, palafin might not be broken when everybody preps for it, but will it be broken when everyone realizes you also have to watch out for the 500 other building checks in the tier? i think it will be

in addition, palafin's BU set's "checks" take a ridiculous amount from CB. sure, gouging wasn't singularly broken because of its CB sun set, but that definitely helped. palafin is similar in that regard.

TLDR, palafin is arguably not broken right now but when the meta actually develops and people realize they often need to build teams that only have one palafin check, i think it will be.

Read my previous post. I disagree with Lily's point because a lot of these Pokemon either just die once they're forced to take chip damage, or can't safely switch into it without fearing a Close Combat or Ice Punch (Waterpon, Rillaboom, Dragapult, Bolt, etc.) Beating a Pokemon in a vacuum doesn't mean you actually beat it long-term nor if you take any chip damage that may be sustained from being required to check other Pokémon.

 

[Firer4]

Its most direct competition is Ogerpon-W, which it is nearly identical in strength to:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other mons that aren't banned and hit similarly crazy (or crazier) damage feats:
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Mew: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is important to note that all these calcs excluding Palafin include an item (or weather) significantly buffing their damage. Add a mystic water or CB to the mix and Palafin will hit noticeably harder. That isn't to say its broken, but just something to keep in mind when doing such comparisons


Edit: I see now that you shared your opinion on this point already so feel free to disregard this

 

[RPGKing2000]

Read my previous post. I disagree with Lily's point because a lot of these Pokemon either just die once they're forced to take chip damage, or can't safely switch into it without fearing a Close Combat or Ice Punch (Waterpon, Rillaboom, Dragapult, Bolt, etc.) Beating a Pokemon in a vacuum doesn't mean you actually beat it long-term nor if you take any chip damage that may be sustained from being required to check other Pokémon.

Running ice punch or CC is very conditional based on the relevant palafin sets we have for now, banded and lefties. Both sets always run jet punch as a given, banded should always run flip turn for momentum and to not sack a turn as babyfin, and wave crash to hit big numbers. Bulky sets always run bulk up and drain punch so that after boosting palafin is a staying threat and can't be chipped away at. Thus both main sets have 1 "flex" slot, with band almost always running CC to hit steels and kyu, and bulk almost always running taunt to beat walls that will status it. Thus, if you run CC on bulk or ice on band, you're trading MUs like CC on bulk makes it super scary at +1, but also really easy to revenge, or ice punch on band means you drop flip or CC either gutting your momentum or making it so kyu is a solid switch in.
All in all, this seems like a really interesting mon that IMO freshens up the meta, at least in a way I enjoy, as the mon kind of shits on offensive structures and in turn is worse against balance/fat teams. Its mechanic of you sacking a turn to get a beast in the back promotes some pretty good thinking in battling, where you wonder if your opp will lead fin to get it active ASAP (IMO lead fin is trash and if you lead into a wisprai or hexpult you basically lose a mon to status), or if you wait to u-turn or chilly into the fin so that you don't lose that much momentum. Additionally, I've been using Lando/Pecha teams recently and, like previously stated, band fin has the staraptor problem, where I'll happily sack lando into fin to get the momentum and chip, and pecha at least in my experience handles fin well most of the time, basically destroying the lefties set. I'm still attempting reqs and I haven't played much since Fin came out so this is a lot of theorycrafting on my end, but it has made me think critically a lot more when I play, and that's what I play mons for, so I've enjoyed fin as it requires some semblance of skill to use.

 

[Alternator]

Palafin supporters don't really seem to take into account that Hero form just straight up doesn’t have any weaknesses stat-wise. It's fairly fast, fairly bulky both specially and physically, and has a great typing. It’s a Pokemon that is nearly impossible to exploit without your opponent fucking up somehow. And unlike Cuckfable or other mons that leverage unexceptional stats, Paladin DOES have strengths. Its passable defenses, speed and typing work obscenely well with it’s unmatched raw power.

Neither does Manaphy, which is in RUBL. Equally fast, slightly better bulk, and has the same great typing. While it has less immediate power, it does have better coverage options (both higher base power and more complementary type coverage) and a stronger boosting move in Tail Glow, and doesn't require being switched out before becoming usable.

There's certainly reasons to question whether Palafin is acceptable in OU, but surface level commentary like this isn't it.

 

[Seraphyde]

And unlike Cuckfable or other mons that leverage unexceptional stats, Paladin DOES have strengths. Its passable defenses, speed and typing work obscenely well with it’s unmatched raw power.

Neither does Manaphy, which is in RUBL. Equally fast, slightly better bulk, and has the same great typing. While it has less immediate power, it does have better coverage options (both higher base power and more complementary type coverage) and a stronger boosting move in Tail Glow, and doesn't require being switched out before becoming usable.

There's certainly reasons to question whether Palafin is acceptable in OU, but surface level commentary like this isn't it.

reading comprehension check: failed

Manaphy's stats are comically balanced which leads to only two of them actually being useable, whatever you choose to invest in. However, Palafin can leverage its monstrous attack stat even without any investment, hence why I brought up Clefeeble. Manaphy has no strengths stats-wise while Palafin does. That's the core component that makes Manaphy worse than Palafin, among other things.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

i have to echo jack's sentiment here. a lot of your arguments are solid but the comparison of those calcs with palafin's should probably have a bit of context behind them:

• a lot of those other mons are kinda fudging the calcs with some sort of stupid boost or other. waterpon has the mask, the paradoxes have proto active, gambit has supreme overlord, rilla has grassy terrain. palafin doesn't get any of that support and it's hitting that hard anyway
• i haven't seen many non-banded palafins running wave crash. most of the ones i'm seeing that don't have band are running bulk up with jet punch as their only water stab, so i'm not sure how common that calc even is. even if it is more relevant than i think, that isn't the calc that everyone is afraid of
• out of the listed mons, gholdengo, kingambit, and waterpon are also considered by many to be a problem; walking wake was considered problematic enough to be suspected in the past and there were plenty of complaints about it long after the suspect and even some through dlc1; roaring moon was actually banned at one point and is still a fairly controversial mon (although not as controversial as it should be, i really think we should be looking at this guy harder); raging bolt has also been a hair's breadth away from a suspect several times. so to a lot of people, this reads less as "palafin hits less hard than these balanced things" and more "palafin has a damage output comparable to a bunch of mons that are also broken". i don't personally think every one of those things should be looked at, but i personally think ghold, gambit, waterpon and roaring moon are also banworthy, so this isn't really convincing me that palafin is fine, it's doing the opposite
• we should also note that make it rain and draco meteor aren't spammable, so those single-turn calcs aren't exactly as threatening as they appear compared to the others that can inflict that amount of damage multiple times in a row

outside of this, you do make some compelling points about wave crash's self-inflicted damage, band's general need to overcommit, and bulk up's lack of immediate breaking power, although i do think the utility and power it brings are more than enough to offset that. i still have to disagree with your conclusion, though

and for the record, i still think dlc1 manaphy was broken, don't @ me

Palafin is "fudging the calc" by needing to switch in before getting those boosts, and in many cases requiring bulk up or band to sweep. I agree with you that bulk up wave crash or pivot wave crash isn't really a real set, but I think not being able to viably run its strongest move in many cases is a point against it, as you conceded regarding recoil and lack of recovery.

Once again "that logic is basically broken checks broken because I think half the pokemon legal in the tier are broken" is not a real argument. And roaring moon being broken now and Manaphraud being broken at any point, even the extremely unbalanced and poorly tiered late dlc1, is a laughable statement.

reading comprehension check: failed

Manaphy's stats are comically balanced which leads to only two of them actually being useable, whatever you choose to invest in. However, Palafin can leverage its monstrous attack stat even without any investment, hence why I brought up Clefeeble. Manaphy has no strengths stats-wise while Palafin does. That's the core component that makes Manaphy worse than Palafin, among other things.

You have failed the reading comprehension check even harder, perhaps even a nat 1, by fixating on the throwaway example Alternator gave rather than their point which is that "all of palafin's stats are good - not ONE is bad! It's broken!" says nothing of how it interacts with the meta and serves as an extremely surface level and generally useless observation